Heatran. Need I say more?
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Pokémon Legends: Z-A General Discussion
- Thread starter DHR-107
- Start date
Season 8 is upon us! I have yet to play a game but I am going to be theorycrafting here haha
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: Z-Megas are very strong. Their unique mechanic allowing for instant attacks lets them attack at twice the speed other Pokemon do and nab KOs faster than you can 'THIS IS BULLSHIT'. Mega Garchomp Z is at the top of the metagame. Shedding its Ground Typing makes it so much more difficult to KO without being a Fairy, Ice or opposing Dragon Type. It (mostly) retains its top tier bulk, easily eating any neutral attacks that come its way and responding with a plethora of offense. It is just 'Garchomp but it fires off attacks much faster'. Mega Absol Z is surprisingly difficult to take out in one blow thanks to its additional Ghost Typing, leaving it only weak to Fairy. Which is further exacerbated by the fact Mega Absol Z is shitting out damage like there's no tomorrow, so it'll probably kill you before you get the chance. Mega Lucario Z is perhaps the weakest of the three, but by no means is horrible or mediocre. It's incredibly difficult to even land a hit on it thanks to its small size and fast movement speed. Hits extremely hard and has a deceptively good defensive profile to boot. You all know what they say, the best offense is a good defense.
: It's Magearna, but it hits harder and has less cooldown on its attacks. Steel/Fairy is a fantastic Type combination being weak only to the rare Fire or Ground Type move and threatening a deceptive amount of the metagame between its movepool and STAB combo. I don't think this thing has any weaknesses aside from 'it hates Heatran and Garchomp kinda'. Supremely bulky, really strong, great movepool.
: I hate this fucking cock groper so much. Crit boosted fucking First Impression with only two uncommon weaknesses and then this fucker Mega Evolves and whatever you were trying to target him with is now neutral or resisted and now only Fire's gonna do anything meaningful to it. Maybe all the other Steel Types will help keep this fakeass Steel out of the meta but I'm sure they'll rear their ugly ass mug just to crit and kill me again.
: Back again, back again. Mega Skarmory's always been a terrifying presence in part thanks to its Steel / Flying Typing to ensure hitting it for meaningful damage is a difficult task while it kills itself to kill everyone else on the board. A titanic Attack stat backed by options like Fly and Brave Bird and coverage in Drill Run and it's truly difficult trying to fight back against this beast. Base Skarmory hits like a wet noodle though so I guess that's a weakness.
: Behold, who will probably be the best (legal) Fire Type in the game. Mega Heatran comes equipped with giant stats and extremely powerful moves to boot. It takes advantage of the plethora of Steel Types available by melting them all beneath the heat of its Magma Storm and / or Heat Waves. A nasty x4 weakness to Ground keeps Mega Heatran in check, but it doesn't keep it down.
: Unfortunately I don't feel like this guy is really great. Its movepool is colorful, but it really lacks the Fire, Ground or even Fairy options it wants to have. It has a high Special Attack stat, but STAB Dark Pulse just misses out on the OHKOs it wants to get without the red boost and even with Nasty Plot. Psychic and non-Absol Z Ghost Types are pretty much nonexistent. Magearna beats it handily. I guess shooting down Mega Skarmory and pre-Mega Z Garchomp with Thunderbolt and Ice Beam is kinda cool though.
: On one hand, Ice / Fighting decks so much of the metagame for super effective damage and Mega Crabominable finally can flex its fantastic bulk. On the other, Ice / Fighting has no real resistances and plenty of weaknesses, undermining Mega Crabominable's fantastic bulk.
: Fire Types are in an awkward spot. They'd love praying on the weakness of Steel Types if not for the Earthquakes and Waterfalls flying around. Mega Scovillain is the only (legal) Fire Type not weak to Ground or Water. This really lets it melt the competition with its great offenses and options for attacking.
: The only Mega Ground Type around, Mega Golurk is notably not weak to Fairy or Dragon. It has impressive bulk and physical attack and has scary attacks like Fissure and Phantom Force. I don't have much else to say on it, its just strong.
, , : Z-Megas are very strong. Their unique mechanic allowing for instant attacks lets them attack at twice the speed other Pokemon do and nab KOs faster than you can 'THIS IS BULLSHIT'. Mega Garchomp Z is at the top of the metagame. Shedding its Ground Typing makes it so much more difficult to KO without being a Fairy, Ice or opposing Dragon Type. It (mostly) retains its top tier bulk, easily eating any neutral attacks that come its way and responding with a plethora of offense. It is just 'Garchomp but it fires off attacks much faster'. Mega Absol Z is surprisingly difficult to take out in one blow thanks to its additional Ghost Typing, leaving it only weak to Fairy. Which is further exacerbated by the fact Mega Absol Z is shitting out damage like there's no tomorrow, so it'll probably kill you before you get the chance. Mega Lucario Z is perhaps the weakest of the three, but by no means is horrible or mediocre. It's incredibly difficult to even land a hit on it thanks to its small size and fast movement speed. Hits extremely hard and has a deceptively good defensive profile to boot. You all know what they say, the best offense is a good defense.: It's Magearna, but it hits harder and has less cooldown on its attacks. Steel/Fairy is a fantastic Type combination being weak only to the rare Fire or Ground Type move and threatening a deceptive amount of the metagame between its movepool and STAB combo. I don't think this thing has any weaknesses aside from 'it hates Heatran and Garchomp kinda'. Supremely bulky, really strong, great movepool.: I hate this fucking cock groper so much. Crit boosted fucking First Impression with only two uncommon weaknesses and then this fucker Mega Evolves and whatever you were trying to target him with is now neutral or resisted and now only Fire's gonna do anything meaningful to it. Maybe all the other Steel Types will help keep this fakeass Steel out of the meta but I'm sure they'll rear their ugly ass mug just to crit and kill me again. : Back again, back again. Mega Skarmory's always been a terrifying presence in part thanks to its Steel / Flying Typing to ensure hitting it for meaningful damage is a difficult task while it kills itself to kill everyone else on the board. A titanic Attack stat backed by options like Fly and Brave Bird and coverage in Drill Run and it's truly difficult trying to fight back against this beast. Base Skarmory hits like a wet noodle though so I guess that's a weakness.: Behold, who will probably be the best (legal) Fire Type in the game. Mega Heatran comes equipped with giant stats and extremely powerful moves to boot. It takes advantage of the plethora of Steel Types available by melting them all beneath the heat of its Magma Storm and / or Heat Waves. A nasty x4 weakness to Ground keeps Mega Heatran in check, but it doesn't keep it down.: Unfortunately I don't feel like this guy is really great. Its movepool is colorful, but it really lacks the Fire, Ground or even Fairy options it wants to have. It has a high Special Attack stat, but STAB Dark Pulse just misses out on the OHKOs it wants to get without the red boost and even with Nasty Plot. Psychic and non-Absol Z Ghost Types are pretty much nonexistent. Magearna beats it handily. I guess shooting down Mega Skarmory and pre-Mega Z Garchomp with Thunderbolt and Ice Beam is kinda cool though.: On one hand, Ice / Fighting decks so much of the metagame for super effective damage and Mega Crabominable finally can flex its fantastic bulk. On the other, Ice / Fighting has no real resistances and plenty of weaknesses, undermining Mega Crabominable's fantastic bulk.: Fire Types are in an awkward spot. They'd love praying on the weakness of Steel Types if not for the Earthquakes and Waterfalls flying around. Mega Scovillain is the only (legal) Fire Type not weak to Ground or Water. This really lets it melt the competition with its great offenses and options for attacking.: The only Mega Ground Type around, Mega Golurk is notably not weak to Fairy or Dragon. It has impressive bulk and physical attack and has scary attacks like Fissure and Phantom Force. I don't have much else to say on it, its just strong.
So I guess I can skip this season.
is Swampert gonna be any good? Has great Attack and good coverage, and is good against Steel with STAB Earthquake! Also pretty good bulk on the physical side.
Won’t be usable this season since its Mega isn’t new.
So does this go here?
They completely gutted Emboar lmao.
Meganium is honestly pretty interesting. Offensively gets a free Solar Beam and permanent coverage with Weather Ball (although unclear if its Fire moves will also be boosted in damage), and its possible they give it Growth for whats effectively Nasty Plot. Defensively, it can heal 2/3 max HP with a single move
Its still gonna have to deal with some pretty big threats in a Mega format like Salamence, Gengar and Metagross, but i can see it getting some usage in VGC teams
Assuming Mega Sol ignores active weather, it could also try to slot itself in other weather teams while behaving as a Sun mon, which is pretty neat
Feraligatr gets the benefit of having some of the hardest hitting Dragon moves with 144 BP Double-Edge, which at the very least gives it a niche. The -ate ability mons tend to get some new Normal tools to use with their ability also. I've seen some suggest Fake Out would be fitting for its Mega's design, which would definitely be a pretty interesting addition
Emboar.
Its still gonna have to deal with some pretty big threats in a Mega format like Salamence, Gengar and Metagross, but i can see it getting some usage in VGC teams
Assuming Mega Sol ignores active weather, it could also try to slot itself in other weather teams while behaving as a Sun mon, which is pretty neat
Feraligatr gets the benefit of having some of the hardest hitting Dragon moves with 144 BP Double-Edge, which at the very least gives it a niche. The -ate ability mons tend to get some new Normal tools to use with their ability also. I've seen some suggest Fake Out would be fitting for its Mega's design, which would definitely be a pretty interesting addition
Emboar.
The worst starter no longer! The gift of Mega Evolution has blessed Meganium in many ways. The addition Fairy Type grants Meganium coveted resistances to Fighting, Dragon, Dark and removes that pesky U-Turn weakness. Most notably it's supremely resistant to Knock Off and is among the pool of Pokemon resistant to Fighting and Ground. Increased defenses help accentuate its resistances. Above all the biggest boon Meganium got was an offensive boost. Its meager 83 Special Attack stat has shot up to an amazing 143 and backing this is a brand new Ability, Mega Sol. Solar Beam now fires instantly, Weather Ball (is probably) a Fire Type move and Synthesis now heals 66% of Meganium's HP. This gives Meganium offensive utility unheard of on defensive Pokemon and its base 80 Speed still isn't too bad for one of its kind too.
Everything's not quite perfect for Meganium though. The additional Fairy Typing brings a mean weakness to Steel and further compounds its weakness to Poison. Grass / Fairy isn't very good offensively either. A whole three Types resist the combination and Meganium is going to be missing something somewhere. Poison Types, Steel Types or Fire Types will wall it.
Meganium @ Meganiumite
Ability: Leaf Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 192 Def / 64 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Dazzling Gleam
- Synthesis
- Weather Ball
- Giga Drain / Solar Beam
The EV spread lets Meganium avoid the 2HKO from Great Tusk's Ice Spinner after Stealth Rock. If Weather Ball doesn't work for some reason, just slot in Earth Power. Even uninvested, Giga Drain hurts and eases up the strain Synthesis would have to endure without it. Alternatively Solar Beam hits those thresholds Giga Drain just would not hit. You can go in max Physical Defense or even some Special Attack if you'd like, this is just what I cooked up. Either way, Meganium has a lot to look forward to come Pokemon Champions. It finally gets the chance to languish in a higher tier (outside of Gens 2 and 3).
Everything's not quite perfect for Meganium though. The additional Fairy Typing brings a mean weakness to Steel and further compounds its weakness to Poison. Grass / Fairy isn't very good offensively either. A whole three Types resist the combination and Meganium is going to be missing something somewhere. Poison Types, Steel Types or Fire Types will wall it.
Meganium @ Meganiumite
Ability: Leaf Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 192 Def / 64 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Dazzling Gleam
- Synthesis
- Weather Ball
- Giga Drain / Solar Beam
The EV spread lets Meganium avoid the 2HKO from Great Tusk's Ice Spinner after Stealth Rock. If Weather Ball doesn't work for some reason, just slot in Earth Power. Even uninvested, Giga Drain hurts and eases up the strain Synthesis would have to endure without it. Alternatively Solar Beam hits those thresholds Giga Drain just would not hit. You can go in max Physical Defense or even some Special Attack if you'd like, this is just what I cooked up. Either way, Meganium has a lot to look forward to come Pokemon Champions. It finally gets the chance to languish in a higher tier (outside of Gens 2 and 3).
Rounding out the unofficial Mega Dragon trio is Mega Feraligatr. Put plain and simple, Mega Feraligatr is a stat stick. Its alright Attack stat catapults to a monstrous 160 backed already by Swords Dance and Dragon Dance. The addition of its Dragon Typing helps it not be outdone by its base form, coupled with its brand new ability Dragonize. Combine Mega Feraligatr's excellent 120 Defense with its low amount of weaknesses and Water Typing and suddenly Mega Feraligatr finds easy setup opportunities. You find an opportunity, you setup, you sweep. Cut and dry.
Mega Feraligatr's Speed tier is the most depressing aspect about it. It has not improved in Mega Evolution and it is a SINGLE SPEED POINT SLOWER than Dragapult, OU's premier offensive pivot. Its newfound Dragon Typing brings cruel weaknesses to Fairy and Dragon as well. Mega Feraligatr lacks the strong coverage it wants to hit the few Pokemon that are resistant or immune to its attacks. Straightforward as Mega Feraligatr may be, there's few that can withstand its powerful onslaught.
Feraligatr @ Feraligite
Ability: Sheer Force
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Double-Edge
- Liquidation
- Swords Dance / Dragon Dance
- Ice Punch / Dragon Dance / Earthquake
Standard set-up sweeper set. Water / Dragon hits everything for neutral damage in OU with the exception of Ferrothorn, Tapu Fini and the potentially aforementioned Mega Meganium (RIP Tapu Bulu). I personally feel like Swords Dance takes priority over Dragon Dance just to shit out so much more damage, but you can run one over the other for the Speed buff and even both at the cost of coverage and accepting you're just not gonna bowl past Mega Meganium and touching Ferrothorn will kill you instantly. Double-Edge is the strongest STAB Feraligatr gets tied with Thrash but without locking it in, letting you pulverize opposing Fairies with your Water STAB.
Mega Feraligatr's Speed tier is the most depressing aspect about it. It has not improved in Mega Evolution and it is a SINGLE SPEED POINT SLOWER than Dragapult, OU's premier offensive pivot. Its newfound Dragon Typing brings cruel weaknesses to Fairy and Dragon as well. Mega Feraligatr lacks the strong coverage it wants to hit the few Pokemon that are resistant or immune to its attacks. Straightforward as Mega Feraligatr may be, there's few that can withstand its powerful onslaught.
Feraligatr @ Feraligite
Ability: Sheer Force
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Double-Edge
- Liquidation
- Swords Dance / Dragon Dance
- Ice Punch / Dragon Dance / Earthquake
Standard set-up sweeper set. Water / Dragon hits everything for neutral damage in OU with the exception of Ferrothorn, Tapu Fini and the potentially aforementioned Mega Meganium (RIP Tapu Bulu). I personally feel like Swords Dance takes priority over Dragon Dance just to shit out so much more damage, but you can run one over the other for the Speed buff and even both at the cost of coverage and accepting you're just not gonna bowl past Mega Meganium and touching Ferrothorn will kill you instantly. Double-Edge is the strongest STAB Feraligatr gets tied with Thrash but without locking it in, letting you pulverize opposing Fairies with your Water STAB.
The last of our Mega Evolved ZA trio, Mega Emboar... is something. Even if they have improved, Mega Emboar's Speed is still unimpressive and its physical bulk is still poor. Its immediate power isn't up to snuff with even its base form as Reckless has been replaced by Mold Breaker, which Mega Emboar struggles to get value out of. It has answers for pretty much everything it'd want Mold Breaker to bypass anyways.
Perhaps Mega Emboar's greatest strength was the buff to its Special Defense. 110 / 110 bulk is nothing to sneeze at and it stands out as a Fighting Type that eats Clefable's Moonblasts for breakfast. Even if it isn't as strong as its base form, that bump in Speed may be enough to give it the edge, nevermind what its newfound Special Defense does for it. Mega Emboar is very likely to be the weakest of the ZA Mega Evolutions, but with any luck there'll be more utility to this pig that meets the eye, primarily thanks to its improved bulk.
Emboar @ Emboarite
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 252 HP / 120 SpD / 136 Spe
Careful Nature
- Bulk Up
- Drain Punch
- Sucker Punch / Knock Off
- Heat Crash / Flare Blitz / Grass Knot
I'll be honest, I wasn't really sure what to do here. I felt a bulky Drain Punch sweeper was probably the best way to use Mega Emboar. The given EV spread lets you outspeed 60 Speed Gholdengo while the rest goes into HP and Special Defense to be as bulky as possible. There are a few more fat fucks living in OU, so you might want to take Flare Blitz over Heat Crash. Sucker Punch gets the jump on the faster Psychic Types that WILL be a pain while Knock Off hits much harder and has better utility.
edit: grass knot dumpsters big fat don fish
sorry for the text dump haha I felt like making writups
Perhaps Mega Emboar's greatest strength was the buff to its Special Defense. 110 / 110 bulk is nothing to sneeze at and it stands out as a Fighting Type that eats Clefable's Moonblasts for breakfast. Even if it isn't as strong as its base form, that bump in Speed may be enough to give it the edge, nevermind what its newfound Special Defense does for it. Mega Emboar is very likely to be the weakest of the ZA Mega Evolutions, but with any luck there'll be more utility to this pig that meets the eye, primarily thanks to its improved bulk.
Emboar @ Emboarite
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 252 HP / 120 SpD / 136 Spe
Careful Nature
- Bulk Up
- Drain Punch
- Sucker Punch / Knock Off
- Heat Crash / Flare Blitz / Grass Knot
I'll be honest, I wasn't really sure what to do here. I felt a bulky Drain Punch sweeper was probably the best way to use Mega Emboar. The given EV spread lets you outspeed 60 Speed Gholdengo while the rest goes into HP and Special Defense to be as bulky as possible. There are a few more fat fucks living in OU, so you might want to take Flare Blitz over Heat Crash. Sucker Punch gets the jump on the faster Psychic Types that WILL be a pain while Knock Off hits much harder and has better utility.
edit: grass knot dumpsters big fat don fish
sorry for the text dump haha I felt like making writups
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Note that all the other Type Changing Abilities (including Normalize as of Gen VII) also add a 20% Power increase to Moves on top of that Move now getting STAB. So Thrash is now a 144 Power Move before STAB (216 after). They don't mention it, but I would be surprised if it wasn't included.
The true reason Abilities weren't included in Legends: ZA: GF didn't want to reveal their poor Abilities picking choices (yet they still went this anyway cause what do you expect them to do it, give them a better Ability? Pfft).
Mold Breaker really is just baffling. It doesn't fit Emboar's play style or its design really. I don't think Supreme Overlord was ever in the cards but even keeping Reckless would make sense with the flavor we have for it.
I think they know that which is why they're laughing at Outrage being inferior to Thrash.
ZA was also the first time in the side main series games (as in, Let's Go and both Legends; main series RPGs with different approaches to battling) where held items were a thing. Or the usual EV system; they keep experimenting, and I'd wager next time we may see passive abilities being a thing beyond a few given species.
Keeping the action RPG gameplay would IMO be a good thing for this gig IMO, feels far better than in Arceus for what they are trying to do.
Keeping the action RPG gameplay would IMO be a good thing for this gig IMO, feels far better than in Arceus for what they are trying to do.
Still do not like how they're pigeonholing Ice-types into Snow, but hey at least Froslass will be good
Mold Breaker is a good ability for an offensive mon though, for example you can't be stopped by unaware mons, contact abilities don't affect you and abilitids which give immunities are ignored, it could be worse, way worse, like imagine if the guys at GF looked at it having a spear and giving it long reach for design flavor?
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9customgame-2567304126-qnxdatdma4l99pwiuqrokbjpujopv87pw
unfortunately Rough Skin is not among the ignorable abilities and Flash Fire immunities are completely irrelevant to Emboar
so, yeah, maybe Long Reach would have been better
Mold Breaker specifically ignores target abilities that would alter damage calculation. It's best known for ignoring immunity abilities like Levitate, but it also bypasses damage reduction abilities (Solid Rock), abilities that ignore statuses (Immunity), and abilities that would redirect moves (Lightning Rod [also ignores the electric immunity]). There are rare cases where ignoring abilities are a bad thing (Mold Breaker ignores the extra damage Fire Attacks are supposed to do to Pokémon with Dry Skin, and it'll cause allies with Telepathy to get hit by spread attacks). But it's a very strong ability.
Unironically I think Will-o-Wisp would be good on it.
Unironically I think Will-o-Wisp would be good on it.
I think Mold Breaker is just kind of an akward ability. How good it is will depend almost entirely on the format. Like yeah in a vacuum you can ignore Unaware, use status moves on Magic Bounce and OHKO Sturdy mons but without a clearly defined meta its hard to tell how much that matters
I think its doubly akward when we just got Hearthflame Ogerpon, which is arguably a better Fire-type with that ability. We may not know if Ogerpon will be in champions, but even as a Pokémon with a much better statline, Swords Dance and Grass STAB, its main usage for Mold Breaker was just hitting Tera Grass Heatran (which probably won't be in this first format anyways). If a much better mon in Ogerpon didn't make that good use of Mold Breaker, I kinda doubt Emboar will put it to good use
Having said that, we do have two other Megas with Mold Breaker in Gyarados and Ampharos. I've always assumed they were given this ability in order to bypass Storm Drain and Lightning Rod. So perhaps Emboar getting Mold Breaker might be a sign that a similar Fire-type version of Storm Drain could exist in the future? Either in Champions or in Gen 10
I think its doubly akward when we just got Hearthflame Ogerpon, which is arguably a better Fire-type with that ability. We may not know if Ogerpon will be in champions, but even as a Pokémon with a much better statline, Swords Dance and Grass STAB, its main usage for Mold Breaker was just hitting Tera Grass Heatran (which probably won't be in this first format anyways). If a much better mon in Ogerpon didn't make that good use of Mold Breaker, I kinda doubt Emboar will put it to good use
Having said that, we do have two other Megas with Mold Breaker in Gyarados and Ampharos. I've always assumed they were given this ability in order to bypass Storm Drain and Lightning Rod. So perhaps Emboar getting Mold Breaker might be a sign that a similar Fire-type version of Storm Drain could exist in the future? Either in Champions or in Gen 10
The fire starters man...
First Incineroar doesn't get a signature ability, now Mega Emboar?
Game Freak does not like their fire starters man...
First Incineroar doesn't get a signature ability, now Mega Emboar?
Game Freak does not like their fire starters man...
H-Typhlosion being the only of the Hisuian starters to get VGC play at high levels, Incineroar being what it is, Cinderace and Blaziken being absolute singles menaces both managing to be banned to ubers, Skeledirge being a viable singles and doubles mon alike, Charizard getting every almost single super mechanic and in fact 2 megas both viable in high level VGC and singles, are we talking of the same game series?
I sure hope that was a sarcastic comment there...
Don’t forget Infernape having the best starter design of all time.
Even setting aside Incineroar’s *gestures wildly at everything else*, it getting Intimidate while the other two got… Long Reach and Liquid Voice easily makes Incineroar the winner in that draw. A signature Ability is not necessarily a great Ability.