Sneasel and Weavile can't learn Sucker Punch. What.
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Pokémon Movepool Oddities & Explanations
- Thread starter Kurona
- Start date
It's especially weird considering how the move is distributed. Outside of obvious candidates such as Pokémon based around living beings with camouflage/stealth, predators, or both, some seem to get it just for being fast or humanoids capable of hand-to-hand trickery. Also consider that Latias had access to the move via tutor in Gen 4 but not Latios for what I can only assume is Pokédex lore reasons specific to the female Eon.
Despite fitting neatly into a bunch of the above criteria (fast humanoid hunters) and being logical fits for the move, Sneasel and Weavile are snubbed regardless. Why? This is especially egregious when Sneasel's Crystal dex entry explicitly states that it hides in the dark to ambush prey.
As an aside, how does Yveltal learn it? It's really good STAB, yeah, but how are you being surprised or feinted in combat by the very much not stealthy massive bird with a literal death aura.
That's a weird one with Latias and Latios too. I suppose the (possible) reason is that she's more about trickery and deception in the moves she uses, and it fits the profile of a less direct, more defensively-minded fighter, but it's such a nebulous distinction given that Latios learns a whole bunch of status/indirect offensive moves like Ally Switch, Power Split, and so on. Or it could just be a mistake; for some reason it wasn't carried forward into later games like a lot of the other tutor moves from Gen V so maybe if it had been they'd have given Latios the move.
It's a bird so I suppose it's attacking from above...? It also learns Phantom Force so one can imagine it obscuring itself or shifting out of view. Not to mention its crawling animations in PLZA are pretty unsettling too. But I think it also skates by on the "it's a legendary, it learns loads of stuff" doctrine. Xerneas getting Outrage has always been weird to me. Even though it's a stag and they can be pretty damn brutal when they're angry.
I heard that this was the reason
Diamond/Pearl/Platinum: Its body is covered with a down that can refract light in such a way that it becomes invisible.
Latios is never mentioned to be able to do it as well
Edit: how do add the reply to the top of the message?
Diamond/Pearl/Platinum: Its body is covered with a down that can refract light in such a way that it becomes invisible.
Latios is never mentioned to be able to do it as well
Edit: how do add the reply to the top of the message?
Looking at movesets again today and another slightly odd move has me contemplating it: Energy Ball.
Gen III and IV were typically where a lot of older moves which weren't always explained in great detail got slightly more illustrative descriptions (Agility, for instance) thanks to their larger textboxes. Because of this, a lot of moves introduced in those gens haven't changed a lot in terms of how they're described - Energy Ball is no exception to this.
Gen IV description: The user draws power from nature and fires it at the target. It may also lower the target's Sp. Def.
PLZA description: The user attacks by drawing power from nature and firing it at targets. This may also lower targets' Sp. Def stats.
So that's a pretty standard Grass-type technique. As you'd expect, everything that learns Energy Ball by level is a Grass-type, apart from Flabebe (obvious, basically an honorary Grass-type) and... Swirlix, for whatever reason.
But since it's been a teachable move in every generation, lots of other Pokemon learn it too. Which fits for a relatively bland description like "the user draws power from nature": many different Pokemon should be capable of that. A huge amount of Psychic-types get it, as do a lot of Bugs, quite a few Fairies, and interestingly quite a few Ghosts (Gastly, Frillish, Yamask, Misdreavus, Sandygast). So do a handful of other Pokemon who live in natural environments or have a stronger-than-usual connection to the elements: Vulpix*, Stantler, Passimian, Castform, Glimmora, Terapagos.
There's a few species for which I question the logic of them learning (Magearna, Deoxys, Giratina, Gengar, Beheeyem, Xurkitree, Celesteela, Iron Moth) but I'm more interested in how many things don't learn it, especially Water-types. Octillery does, but that seems more to do with it being a projectile move (of which Octillery learns basically every single one) than because of a connection to nature; Manaphy does too, but that might be the whole "it's a legendary/mythical so it learns loads of moves" thing I mentioned in the last post; Frillish also does, but equally it's part Ghost so maybe it's just because of that.
But if any type represents nature outside of Grass and Fairy, it's surely Water: and even though Grass moves are a stretch for a lot of Water-types (given that many of them are fairly mundane aquatic creatures without much in the way of vast intelligence or elemental power) there's at least a few I'd think should be capable of learning it: Starmie, Lanturn, Politoed, Clawitzer, Lapras, Corsola, Araquanid, Tapu Fini, Dracovish, Walking Wake. Starmie is quite possibly the oddest exception given that it's a Psychic-type with mysterious elemental abilities.
Non-Water-types I'm also a little surprised have never been able to learn it:
-Zygarde (it's literally all about nature)
-Tapu Koko (all the Tapus are about nature - I can sort of see the thinking behind only Lele and Bulu getting it, but I don't think it'd be out of place for the other two)
-Landorus (it's not like it really needs it, but, again, is a nature-oriented species)
-Espeon (a notable Psychic exception; it learns Grass Knot, Trailblaze, and Morning Sun, but not this)
-Slaking, Furret, Miltank, Kecleon (all grassland-dwelling Normal-types with wide elemental learnsets)
-Ariados, Ledian, Vespiquen, Yanmega (all notable Bug exceptions)
-Altaria and Goodra (perhaps the most nature-attuned of all the dragons)
-Togekiss (learns just about everything else)
-Audino (as does this)
-Carbink/Diancie (the latter is especially odd, as most of the other pixie-like mythicals do - and Diancie is a very "natural" species)
-Hatterene (Fairy AND Psychic, and yet doesn't learn this despite learning moves like Life Dew, Magical Leaf, and both its native terrain moves)
*though that one could just as easily be due to its affinity to Psychic- and Ghost-types than its connection to nature
Gen III and IV were typically where a lot of older moves which weren't always explained in great detail got slightly more illustrative descriptions (Agility, for instance) thanks to their larger textboxes. Because of this, a lot of moves introduced in those gens haven't changed a lot in terms of how they're described - Energy Ball is no exception to this.
Gen IV description: The user draws power from nature and fires it at the target. It may also lower the target's Sp. Def.
PLZA description: The user attacks by drawing power from nature and firing it at targets. This may also lower targets' Sp. Def stats.
So that's a pretty standard Grass-type technique. As you'd expect, everything that learns Energy Ball by level is a Grass-type, apart from Flabebe (obvious, basically an honorary Grass-type) and... Swirlix, for whatever reason.
But since it's been a teachable move in every generation, lots of other Pokemon learn it too. Which fits for a relatively bland description like "the user draws power from nature": many different Pokemon should be capable of that. A huge amount of Psychic-types get it, as do a lot of Bugs, quite a few Fairies, and interestingly quite a few Ghosts (Gastly, Frillish, Yamask, Misdreavus, Sandygast). So do a handful of other Pokemon who live in natural environments or have a stronger-than-usual connection to the elements: Vulpix*, Stantler, Passimian, Castform, Glimmora, Terapagos.
There's a few species for which I question the logic of them learning (Magearna, Deoxys, Giratina, Gengar, Beheeyem, Xurkitree, Celesteela, Iron Moth) but I'm more interested in how many things don't learn it, especially Water-types. Octillery does, but that seems more to do with it being a projectile move (of which Octillery learns basically every single one) than because of a connection to nature; Manaphy does too, but that might be the whole "it's a legendary/mythical so it learns loads of moves" thing I mentioned in the last post; Frillish also does, but equally it's part Ghost so maybe it's just because of that.
But if any type represents nature outside of Grass and Fairy, it's surely Water: and even though Grass moves are a stretch for a lot of Water-types (given that many of them are fairly mundane aquatic creatures without much in the way of vast intelligence or elemental power) there's at least a few I'd think should be capable of learning it: Starmie, Lanturn, Politoed, Clawitzer, Lapras, Corsola, Araquanid, Tapu Fini, Dracovish, Walking Wake. Starmie is quite possibly the oddest exception given that it's a Psychic-type with mysterious elemental abilities.
Non-Water-types I'm also a little surprised have never been able to learn it:
-Zygarde (it's literally all about nature)
-Tapu Koko (all the Tapus are about nature - I can sort of see the thinking behind only Lele and Bulu getting it, but I don't think it'd be out of place for the other two)
-Landorus (it's not like it really needs it, but, again, is a nature-oriented species)
-Espeon (a notable Psychic exception; it learns Grass Knot, Trailblaze, and Morning Sun, but not this)
-Slaking, Furret, Miltank, Kecleon (all grassland-dwelling Normal-types with wide elemental learnsets)
-Ariados, Ledian, Vespiquen, Yanmega (all notable Bug exceptions)
-Altaria and Goodra (perhaps the most nature-attuned of all the dragons)
-Togekiss (learns just about everything else)
-Audino (as does this)
-Carbink/Diancie (the latter is especially odd, as most of the other pixie-like mythicals do - and Diancie is a very "natural" species)
-Hatterene (Fairy AND Psychic, and yet doesn't learn this despite learning moves like Life Dew, Magical Leaf, and both its native terrain moves)
*though that one could just as easily be due to its affinity to Psychic- and Ghost-types than its connection to nature
Drampa learns Fly by levelup, and did so in Gen VII when the only other mons that did so were Rayquaza and Salamence. It's not even a flying type! I'm sure it's supposed to be a reference to the other two as another mystical dragon, but we have a LOT of mystical dragons who live in the mountains, why does this one learn Fly?
For whatever reason they really want to emphasize it can fly. It's probably shown flying more than other flying dragons. It also vaguely looks like a cloud; the mega certainly goes all in on that.
Really Fly should probably be learned by more things normally now that it isn't shackled to a HM....
Anyway surprised that after everyone just assumed Meganium learned Growth no one brought it up here [again, maybe, i'm not searching for it]. I'm sure lot of people would like it now, certainly!
Drampa was shown to fly in the anime
it's a fuggin cloud
The better question is why more mons don't learn Fly by level-up now that it isn't a HM?
You know what else was shown flying in the anime? Dragonite, Charizard, and every single regional bird. Charizard is even a fly replacement in the game where Drampa learns the move, but Charizard does not learn Fly naturally.
I can accept that a cloud dragon who lives on top of a mountain should learn fly. Maybe not as much as, say, Gyarados or Yanmega should, but sure, I can get that. I don't get why it's the third mon ever to get the move by level-up, with only 12 mons total learning the move. What makes it special?
I think it just comes down to they really really wanted to emphasize that this non-flying dragon could fly. honestly the more this conversation goes on they should have just given it Aerilate instead of Sap Sipper
Or Strength, Surf, and Waterfall. Rock Smash has at least seen some wider spread as an early Fighting-type Move.
At the very least I can understand them not wanting to just give any Pokemon with the general ability of these former HM Moves as part of their natural moveset. Sure we have a lot of Pokemon capable of flight, but I always took the Move Fly as, at least in battle, a highly technical form of flight where the user both uses it as a dodging technique & then transferring the velocity and g-force of such a sudden maneuver into a fly-by strike all while not hurting itself like with Brave Bird. Only a select few flying Pokemon will have this skill naturally for one reason or another.
Same for the other mentioned HM Moves: Natural Strength user understands its body enough to use all its muscles in the attack while not injuring itself; Natural Surf users are not just summoning a wave of water but are also riding on top of it, literally surfing the wave while not "wiping out". Finally Waterfall is a bit more obtuse on what it exactly happening, but I always imagine the user using transfers the force of a waterfall into forward momentum, shooting themselves forward in a column of water; once again avoiding not wiping out by getting sucked back into the torrential vortex. Maybe this is also why Rock Smash has been more widespread: it's just a skilled strike strong enough to split rock (I let your imagination on what happens when used on another living creature made of flesh, muscles, and bones).
So with that said, I guess we can make a list of other Pokemon which can learn these Moves naturally:
Fly:
* Already Learns: Salamence, Rayquaza, Drampa, Aerodactyl, Fletchling family, Vikavolt, Flapple, Squawkabilly, Roaring Moon, Flamigo
* My Suggestions: Charizard, Pidgeotto/Pidgeot, Fearow, Crobat, Kanto Legendary Birds, Galarian Moltres, Dragonite, Skarmory, Tower Duo, Taillow family, Altaria, Eon Duo, Starly family, Tranquill/Unfezant, Braviary, Mandibuzz, Forces of Nature, Reshiram, Zekrom, Noivern, Yveltal, Trumbeak/Toucannon, Tapu Koko, Lunala, Corvisquire/Corviknight, Wattrel family, Bombirdier, Fezandipiti
Strength:
* Already Learns: Machop family, Pinsir, Mudbray family, Stufful family, Cufant family
* My Suggestions: (NOTE: Since a lot of Gen 1-6 Pokemon were allowed to learn Strength for game progression, I'm just sticking with the Normal-types for this list) Lickitung family, Kangaskhan, Tauros, Snorlax family, Ursaring/Ursaluna, Obstagoon, Vigoroth/Slaking, Bidoof family, Regigigas, Stoutland, Bouffalant, Rufflet family, Bunnelby family, Cyclizar
Surf:
* Already Learns: Psyduck family, Tentacool family, Slowpoke family (+ Alolan), Lapras, Staryu family, Omanyte family, Suicune, Mudkip family, Milotic, Spheal family, Tapu Fini, Eiscue, Kyogre, Goomy family (+ Hisuian)
* My Suggestions: (NOTE: Forgot that a surprising amount of odd Pokemon was allowed to learn Surf; Well, just like with Strength, only focusing on the Water-types and Pokemon which live in an aquatic habitat) Blastoise, Poliwhirl/Poliwrath/Politoed, Seel family, Seadra/Kingdra, Vaporeon, Chinchou family, Remoraid faimly, Mantine family, Lugia, Lotad family, Pelipper, Wailmer family, Luvdisc, Bidoof family, Finneon family, Palkia, Phione/Manaphy, Panpour family, Ducklett family, Frillish family, Alomomola, Keldeo, Froakie family, Skrelp family, Popplio family, Wishiwashi, Tapu Fini, Tatsugiri, Walking Wake, Terapagos
Waterfall:
* Already Learns: Goldeen family, Seel family, Horsea family, Gyarados, Buizel family
* My Suggestions: Poliwrath, Dratini family, Totodile family, Marill family, Marshtomp/Swampert, Carvahna family, Wailmer family, Whiscash, Prinplup/Empoleon, Bidoof family, Oshawott family, Panpour family, Basculin family, Malamar, Arrokuda family, Grapploct, Urshifu-Rapid, Finizin family, Veluza, Dondozo
I have some questions about the move Growth, where it states in the latest description: "The user boosts its Attack and Sp. Atk stats for a short time by prompting its body to grow all at once."
1. Why is it classified as a Normal Type move? It seems that most mons that can learn it are Grass Type, with the only exception being Comfey ( a Fairy Type). Should it not be classified as a Grass Type.
2. There are some mons that don't learn the move Growth, like Meganium or Sceptile, why is that?
Or is Growth supposed to represent something else?
1. Why is it classified as a Normal Type move? It seems that most mons that can learn it are Grass Type, with the only exception being Comfey ( a Fairy Type). Should it not be classified as a Grass Type.
2. There are some mons that don't learn the move Growth, like Meganium or Sceptile, why is that?
Or is Growth supposed to represent something else?
1: Growth is Grass-type in Z-A, where that description comes from.
2: Game balance and variety? Technically everything can grow but it mainly represents a more generic statboost for Gen 1.
I do think Growth probably should have always been grass type. Gen 1 & 2 it was, outside of a few silly events, learned exclusively by grass types. Doesn't really read like a move designed to be generic statboost. Even by today, there is one non-grass Pokemon that learns it by level up and that's Comfey. And by breeding there's Numel (probably a reference to the "grass" growing on its back) and...........Illumise?
And Illumise's learned it as an egg move since Gen 3?? Why...
Otherwise agree that yeah sometimes they just don't want a move to go to everyone that "could" learn it. Though if it ever becomes TM I can see it being given to most if not all grass types.
Well, yes, considering they made it grass in Z-A, it probably will be.
I am just saying it probably should have been made grass from the start, since that was definitely the flavor of the move based on who they gave it to.
I'm guessing most of the stat moves were normal simply because they usually didn't affect other pokemon.
I never realized this. Probably because I started with Chikorita so I never used a Grass-type that actually learns it.
Probably so. Withdraw is also a self-boosting Gen 1 move that’s always been Water-type despite now being spread across various shelled Pokémon that aren’t aquatic. I know it’s inconsequential, but that one should be changed to Normal-type.
when it clamps down the markings even look like a head!
And man this thing's steel move pool is dire. Metal Claw, Metal Sound, Iron Defense, Flash Cannon (its a physical attacker), Steel Beam...Z-A gave it Magnet Bomb which was buffed to 95 BP but,sheesh.
The english translation is a bit inaccurate. The original Japanese mentions "The user draws life energy from nature". Which is why so many ghosts learn it, and "inert" or alien pokemon can't, it's meant to be some sort of "spirit" energy.
it is so confusing to me that its signature move is grass type and not steel type
like what about this animation is grass? lol
the other confusing part about galarian stunfisk is that its signature ability has it change typing based on the terrain but it doesn't have any moves besides its signature move inexplicably being grass type to take advantage of its new typings.
doesn't have an electric move for electric terrain (spark is egg move in gen 8 only) why can it learn Ice Fang but not Thunder Fang?
doesn't have a psychic move for psychic terrain. can learn Crunch but not Psychic Fangs?
doesn't have a fairy move for misty terrain
besides snaptrap it doesn't have any grass moves with any real base power for grassy terrain
what were they cooking?
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Don't forget when they did introduce a Weather Ball for Terrains, Terrain Pulse, in the Crown Tundra DLC they made it a Special Move so not useful for G-Stunfisk.
I don't think this is a case of "What they were cooking", it's a case of "Too many chefs". G-Stunfisk's entire concept and design feels piecemeal together:
* They decided on a foot trap design for G-Stunfisk, a parallel Move from its "electric land mind" concept. Neat.
* Cause foot traps are made of metal, they made it Ground/Steel-type. Makes sense.
* Artist gave it a dark dull brown color scheme (once again a parallel move) & green footprint-like spots as contrast. Okay.
* "WAIT!" Shouts on Designer. "Since its a trap hiding in the terrain, let's give it a Terrain version of Forecast!". Uh huh, well I guess there's some logic to this and it's a neat idea. Kind of goes a bit against the original vision, but hey designs change all the time so I guess we could make it a Terrain Castform expy.
* Design meeting adjourns and they submit the concept notes. We Move to the team deciding on new Signature Moves and pick G-Stunfisk as candidate. However they only really read about its concept & art and not look into the Ability gimmick they gave it (cause it looks pretty straightforward). So, being based on a simple device made to trap animals, gave it a weak trapping Signature Move. In addition, seeing the green spots (and knowing foot traps are meant to be hidden in long grass), they mistook it for a Grass-type so made its Signature Grass-type. Approved and moved on. In addition the team deciding Movesets too gave it a fairly straightforward Learnset not taking into account its Type changing.
* Only much later did someone actually give it a fair overview and realize design doesn't quite mesh. "Approval changes are going to take a bit, not to mention G-Stunfisk is a dex filler so isn't a high priority. We're nearing developement end and already have plenty of important things going on, let's put the design issues aside for now. As a quick fix I'll send a note to the design team to make a Terrain version of Weather Ball for the DLC".
* And the Move Design team makes a literal Terrain Weather Ball for the DLC, not realizing it was meant to fix G-Stunfisk's design issues.
Eitherway, a simple fix to this now would probably be changing Snap Trap to a Steel-type Move, increase its Power to 80, and make it so that it changes Type along with the Terrain. Maybe a bit powerful for a Binding Move but it is a Signature Move so it can be a little bit overpowered.
