my bad, should be fixed
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Metagame National Dex STABmons
- Thread starter Velcroc
- Start date
With multiple tournaments coming up, I have but one, humble request.
:sv/thundurus-therian:
BAN THUNDY T
Thundurus-Therian is one of the hardest hitting mons in the tier, and without an item restriction it can feel free to run boots, choice item, or z-crystal pretty much for free.
But 101 speed isn’t that quick, so you’d just outspeed it with a scarfer. Unless it has thunderclap, which hits hard enough that even your mons that resist electric might not feel safe being hit by it after some chip. And several of the resists you might want to bring in to beat thunderclap (e.g. Roaring Moon, Hydrapple, Tapu Bulu, Ferrothorn, etc.) struggle into Oblivion Wing or Aeroblast.
Oblivion wing recovery is so strong that mons that should-be reliable counters like Blissey or Clodsire might start doing negative damage. Neither of those mons are that good either.
Then comes the tragedy of Ting Lu. Ting Lu SHOULD counter Thundy T. It doesn’t fear thunderclap or any other electric move and it has enough special bulk to handle the onslaught of strong stabs. Were it not for focus blast and Fightinium Z. Or Oblivion Wing recovery. Or grass knot. The #1 counter to electric types in the tier can’t stop the strongest electric type.
There is one hope left: Raging Bolt. But Raging Bolt is limited, and also loses to quite a few very excellent mon like Landorus Therian, Ferrothorn, Roaring Moon, or Ting Lu. Raging Bolt like many of those before it does fairly little damage back without setup, and several of its most valuable utility tools (volt switch, nuzzle, and parabolic charge) are useless into a volt absorb electric type.
Another of the myriad issues behind Thundy T is that you don’t know its set beforehand. You will not know if it’s HDB or Life Orb or Fightinium Z or any other Z move or Choice Scarf or Specs beforehand. It might have parabolic charge or it might have electro drift. It might outspeed your Mega Lopunny or it might click thunderclap to ohko it. It might do both. You do not know what it can do until it does it.
No pokemon should be allowed to remain in the tier when it can tech around or brute force through so many of its checks so incredibly easily and win after one turn of setup.
I don’t find thunderclap to be problematic, as so far Xurkitree is the only other pokemon banned for it and the other best abusers are either reasonable or problematic for other reasons. I dont find oblivion wing problematic because so few pokemon use it and essentially no others are broken because of it.
While I would not oppose action taken against Z-Moves, I dont think this solves the issue of Thundy-T. Z-Moves are problematic on Thundy T, but so much else of what it does is also problematic without bringing a z-crystal.
Please, for the good of the tier, ban Thundy T.
:sv/thundurus-therian:
BAN THUNDY T
Thundurus-Therian is one of the hardest hitting mons in the tier, and without an item restriction it can feel free to run boots, choice item, or z-crystal pretty much for free.
But 101 speed isn’t that quick, so you’d just outspeed it with a scarfer. Unless it has thunderclap, which hits hard enough that even your mons that resist electric might not feel safe being hit by it after some chip. And several of the resists you might want to bring in to beat thunderclap (e.g. Roaring Moon, Hydrapple, Tapu Bulu, Ferrothorn, etc.) struggle into Oblivion Wing or Aeroblast.
Oblivion wing recovery is so strong that mons that should-be reliable counters like Blissey or Clodsire might start doing negative damage. Neither of those mons are that good either.
Then comes the tragedy of Ting Lu. Ting Lu SHOULD counter Thundy T. It doesn’t fear thunderclap or any other electric move and it has enough special bulk to handle the onslaught of strong stabs. Were it not for focus blast and Fightinium Z. Or Oblivion Wing recovery. Or grass knot. The #1 counter to electric types in the tier can’t stop the strongest electric type.
There is one hope left: Raging Bolt. But Raging Bolt is limited, and also loses to quite a few very excellent mon like Landorus Therian, Ferrothorn, Roaring Moon, or Ting Lu. Raging Bolt like many of those before it does fairly little damage back without setup, and several of its most valuable utility tools (volt switch, nuzzle, and parabolic charge) are useless into a volt absorb electric type.
Another of the myriad issues behind Thundy T is that you don’t know its set beforehand. You will not know if it’s HDB or Life Orb or Fightinium Z or any other Z move or Choice Scarf or Specs beforehand. It might have parabolic charge or it might have electro drift. It might outspeed your Mega Lopunny or it might click thunderclap to ohko it. It might do both. You do not know what it can do until it does it.
No pokemon should be allowed to remain in the tier when it can tech around or brute force through so many of its checks so incredibly easily and win after one turn of setup.
I don’t find thunderclap to be problematic, as so far Xurkitree is the only other pokemon banned for it and the other best abusers are either reasonable or problematic for other reasons. I dont find oblivion wing problematic because so few pokemon use it and essentially no others are broken because of it.
While I would not oppose action taken against Z-Moves, I dont think this solves the issue of Thundy-T. Z-Moves are problematic on Thundy T, but so much else of what it does is also problematic without bringing a z-crystal.
Please, for the good of the tier, ban Thundy T.
Last edited:
In preparation for NDAMPL, the council has decided to make a long-awaited decision.
Thundurus-Therian has been a tour de force in the metagame and influenced many of its trends for the better part of a year. That alone, however, does not make it broken, as many other strong threats such as Landorus-Therian, Mega Mawile, Mega Lopunny, and Mega Medicham run free. The main reason for this ban is that Thundurus-Therian significantly influences teambuilding decisions and is challenging to answer consistently.
On the surface, Thundurus-Therian does have commonplace defensive answers like Ting-Lu and Raging Bolt alongside niche checks like Iron Treads and Rhyperior. However, these answers are vulnerable to hazards long-term and can be cheesed by either Z-moves or a simple Nasty Plot Oblivion Wing set with minimal support. Offensive answers like Roaring Moon, Choice Scarf Landorus-Therian and Aerodactyl-Mega all suffer from serious drawbacks, be it being unable to KO from full, relying on inaccurate moves or being vulnerable to priority (respectively). It really doesn't help that because Oblivion Wing is so spammable, Thundurus-Therian has a Schrodinger's 4th moveslot where all of Focus Blast, Grass Knot, Taunt or Thunder Clap are more-or-less equally viable candidates with notably differing counterplay. This does not account for alternative sets like Choice Specs or Choice Scarf, or even eccentric sets on manual rain like that see success by ankle-breaking the usual counterplay most teams slap on.
Future Watchlist:
:sv/Thundurus-therian: Thundurus-Therian has been BANNED from Nat Dex STABMons :sv/thundurus-therian:
| Amstan | RoFnA | Velcroc | Neon | Seth | |
| Vote | Ban | No vote | Ban | Ban | DNB |
Thundurus-Therian has been a tour de force in the metagame and influenced many of its trends for the better part of a year. That alone, however, does not make it broken, as many other strong threats such as Landorus-Therian, Mega Mawile, Mega Lopunny, and Mega Medicham run free. The main reason for this ban is that Thundurus-Therian significantly influences teambuilding decisions and is challenging to answer consistently.
On the surface, Thundurus-Therian does have commonplace defensive answers like Ting-Lu and Raging Bolt alongside niche checks like Iron Treads and Rhyperior. However, these answers are vulnerable to hazards long-term and can be cheesed by either Z-moves or a simple Nasty Plot Oblivion Wing set with minimal support. Offensive answers like Roaring Moon, Choice Scarf Landorus-Therian and Aerodactyl-Mega all suffer from serious drawbacks, be it being unable to KO from full, relying on inaccurate moves or being vulnerable to priority (respectively). It really doesn't help that because Oblivion Wing is so spammable, Thundurus-Therian has a Schrodinger's 4th moveslot where all of Focus Blast, Grass Knot, Taunt or Thunder Clap are more-or-less equally viable candidates with notably differing counterplay. This does not account for alternative sets like Choice Specs or Choice Scarf, or even eccentric sets on manual rain like that see success by ankle-breaking the usual counterplay most teams slap on.
Future Watchlist:
- :thundurus: is an obvious candidate as it can more or less replicate Thundurus-Therian, while having access to Bulk Up and Mixed options. However, it is notably weaker than its Therian counterpart and lacks the utility of Volt Absorb. This is more out of formality than any actual sentiment.
- :gouging fire: Burning Bulwark is a land-mine of a move and has seen complaints in both surveys and discussions I've had with the community. The council will monitor its impact on the metagame for the time being, with NDAMPL being a perfect testing ground.
- :samurott-hisui: Ceaseless Edge is arguably the most important move to watch at the moment. Unlike SV, there hasn't been any pressing urgency for a restriction among the council and the player base. This sentiment could shift with NDAMPL and metagame developments from the tour.
Free garchomp?
Good fucking riddance
Thank you
:Thundurus:
I don’t see this becoming a problem. Thundy I is different because it actually has to fear Thunderclap and lacks the immediate power you would need for none Z sets. Thundy I typically goes physical to abuse the strength of Defiant anyways. Non issue IMO.
:gouging_fire:
I can’t really defend this one. I really only see it on like 3 mons (Heatran, Washtom, and Cornerpon), and I don’t find it a huge problem but I can see differences in opinions easily arising. If I fall victim to it, then I mostly just feel upset for being stupid and not thinking of it or bringing good enough burn support (Misty Terrain, Heal Bell, Refresh, etc). I think that the lack of distribution and the sacrifice you generally have to go through for it makes it predictable enough to be balanced but I’m just one person.
:samurott-hisui:
Ceaseless Edge found itself problematic in SV through the suffocation of Gholdengo and the general passivity of the tier. I dont see it becoming too much of a problem in NDSTAB because we have so much more removal (god bless Defog Lando) and a generally more offensive skew. I can rarely find room on my teams to run Ceaseless Edge because of how passive it makes Ting Lu and how much you have to give up using it on offensive dark types. If more passive teams make a strong comeback (which I will not be contributing too much too) then I could maybe, maybe, see the move become overbearing, but I think it currently struggles too much for any action.
:Medicham-Mega:
The realest issue in the tier I see now is actually Mega Medicham. A near impossible to properly wall threat with strong non-contact STABs that cover basically everything except Gholdengo, and it has the coverage to beat Gholdengo. It can threaten a bevy of priority options or devastating setup through Agility or Bulk Up. This ‘mon will need to see testing in the coming weeks to know if it is truly banworthy or not.
Made some teams for NDAMPL
:gyarados: :mawile-mega: :ninetales-alola: :raging bolt: :ursaluna: :volcanion: - GL dealing with all that
:aegislash: :rotom-wash: :steelix-mega: :tornadus-therian: :toxapex: :tyranitar: - Mega Steelix Balance
:gholdengo: :landorus-therian: :latios: :ting-lu: :toxapex: :ursaluna: - Ursaluna Balance
:gholdengo: :lopunny-mega: :landorus-therian: :tapu bulu: :ting-lu: :volcanion: - Z Lando + Bulu Offense
:ursaluna: Ursaluna seems pretty broken, SD Quick Attack is super hard to deal with, probably ban
:medicham-mega: :mawile-mega: :volcanion: :gyarados: These mons are very strong but idt any of them deserves a ban right away although you could argue for any one of them. Overall the tier is pretty balanced aside from Ursaluna I'd say
:gyarados: :mawile-mega: :ninetales-alola: :raging bolt: :ursaluna: :volcanion: - GL dealing with all that
:aegislash: :rotom-wash: :steelix-mega: :tornadus-therian: :toxapex: :tyranitar: - Mega Steelix Balance
:gholdengo: :landorus-therian: :latios: :ting-lu: :toxapex: :ursaluna: - Ursaluna Balance
:gholdengo: :lopunny-mega: :landorus-therian: :tapu bulu: :ting-lu: :volcanion: - Z Lando + Bulu Offense
:ursaluna: Ursaluna seems pretty broken, SD Quick Attack is super hard to deal with, probably ban
:medicham-mega: :mawile-mega: :volcanion: :gyarados: These mons are very strong but idt any of them deserves a ban right away although you could argue for any one of them. Overall the tier is pretty balanced aside from Ursaluna I'd say
why are half the mons missing evs
Max def Pex, Max def lando, Max spd Ting-Lu
NDAMPL Team Dump and More!!
Hi, since school is starting back up, I wanted to post some teams I used in ndampl and share some opinions on the tier before my schedule gets too hectic. Team dump
:sv/roaring moon: :sv/Landorus-Therian: :sv/Mawile-Mega: :sv/Ferrothorn: :sv/Volcarona: :sv/slowbro: Week 1 (W)
:sv/Charizard-Mega-Y: :sv/Weezing-Galar: :sv/Weavile: :sv/Ting-Lu: :sv/melmetal: :sv/Rotom-wash: Week 2 (W)
:sv/Gholdengo: :sv/Okidogi: :sv/Ting-lu: :sv/Aerodactyl-mega: :sv/Tapu Fini: :sv/Hydrapple: Week 3 (W)
:sv/Toxapex: :sv/Ursaluna: :sv/Rotom-Wash: :sv/Gholdengo: :sv/Aerodactyl-mega: :sv/Kommo-o: Week 4 (W)
:sv/Urshifu: :sv/Hatterene: :sv/Landorus-Therian: :sv/Scizor-mega: :sv/Ting-Lu: :sv/Raging Bolt: Week 5 (L)
Other teams
Here's some teams I didn't use during NDAMPL or I used in other tours
:pmd/Camerupt-mega: :pmd/Rotom-wash: :pmd/Landorus-Therian: :pmd/Hatterene: :pmd/Ferrothorn: :pmd/Roaring moon:
:pmd/Ogerpon-Cornerstone: :pmd/Gyarados-mega: :pmd/Great Tusk: :pmd/Iron Crown: :pmd/Salamence: :pmd/Volcarona:
:pmd/Ceruledge: :pmd/Ferrothorn: :pmd/Landorus-Therian: :pmd/Diancie-mega: :pmd/Roaring Moon: :pmd/slowking-Galar:
:pmd/Iron Valiant: :pmd/Slowbro: :pmd/Landorus-Therian: :pmd/Ferrothorn: :pmd/Aerodactyl-mega: :pmd/Kingambit:
:pmd/Hatterene: :pmd/Volcanion: :pmd/Latios-Mega: :pmd/Ting-lu: :pmd/Zamazenta: :pmd/Gholdengo:
:pmd/Roaring Moon: :pmd/Hatterene: :pmd/Charizard-Mega-Y: :pmd/Tinkaton: :pmd/Great Tusk: :pmd/Raging Bolt:
Tier list time!!!!
Here's my
Note: I lowkey gave up ranking in order when I got to c tier
Thoughts
:pmd/Landorus-Therian: :pmd/Toxapex:
These are the best mons in the tier imo. They're super splashable on any team and provide so much value. Toxapex is my go to wall. Its ability to switch into most threats on both spectrums is so valuable. On top of that, toxapex can provide teams with great utility. Hazard control?, status?, pivoting?, you name it Toxapex can do it. Landorus Therian ability to fit any role you need is what makes this mon best in tier. If you need to be defensive? it can be defensive. If you want your lando provide your team with speed control, it can do that for you. You want your lando to sweep? It has you covered. Its versatility and effectiveness in its roles is what makes lando deserving of the best mon of the format.
:pmd/Iron Hands:
Iron Hands has a lot of potential! It matches really well against most of the top mons in the tier. Switch in's such as lando and tapu bulu are very wary of ice punch read as well as having plenty of opportunities to set up. Mon such as Celesteela, Toxapex, and ferrothorn provide iron hands free set up chances. This alongside its ability to trade thanks to its bulk, makes this mon very scary to deal under the build.
:pmd/Okidogi:
This mon almost has no switches and is really fun to use. Okidogi rewards aggressive plays, which honestly fits well in the current state of the meta. Bands sets can rip teams to shreds in the hands of a good clicker. There are plenty of other sets okidogi can run that just needs to be explored more. Coils and av sets are other interesting options and can be potent threats under the builds. if only its typing didn't provide such challenging drawbacks. It's ironic really, the typing that makes this mon so potent is the crux useability.
:pmd/Ting-Lu: :pmd/Samurott-Hisui:
I saw TDLoriat post on ceaseless edge on ndam server, so I will post my opinion here. I'm honestly split on the Ceaseless edge. I wouldn't mind Ceaseless edge restricted or out right banned, however I wouldn't mind it staying in the tier ethier. Spikes are important to create progress and can hardly be an issue at times. However at other times they're game defining, especially with the Gholdengo hazard stack teams. Gholdengo makes it impossible to get rid of hazards at times and makes it really suffocating to play against. I think it comes downs match ups. Some teams are just going to be better equipped handling hazards compared to others. I personal think players just need to account for hazards more, though I do understand how frustrating it can be.
:pmd/Hoopa-Unbound: :pmd/Gliscor: :pmd/Great Tusk:
These mons are on fraud watch! It feels hard to justify using these mon compared to their counter parts. For example, why use Hoopa or Gliscor when lando or latios can do better? You can make the argument that they fill other roles, however I don't they perform it well enough to justify the extra support. Their impacts are too minimal for my liking. I often find them not doing much in games or I could just be buns lmao.
:pmd/Ursaluna:
At first I thought this mon was strong but not broken. However after seeing the sd quick attack sets, this mon has got to go. Being able to use priority fixes all it's weakness. Speed is no longer a problem and its bulk and access to recovery makes this mon unhealthy threat in tier.
Thank you for making it this far! I normally don't post like this, but I thought it would be fun to try something new! Overall I'm really happy about my 4-1 record. I knew basically nothing about this tier and I'm proud that I was able to learn the tier preform well in a short period time. Thank you for Ea-Nasir Bello Figo for drafting me and taking a chance on me. Big shout outs to Amstan porcupine21 IMrJamesI for the test this tour! Your help was massive and I couldn't have done it without your help.
If want me explain more on building choices, opinions on the tier, or test games, my discord dms are always open! I really love this tier and hope to see many more great things to come for this tier! Cya later and I hope you all have a good rest of your day.
I made one build for this tier, and wanted to post it since it's cool.
:Tapu Bulu::Rotom-Wash::Zamazenta::Corviknight::Ting-lu::Gholdengo:
Priority spam hstack was incredibly consistent in SV stab when all these moves were allowed, so it surely is the same here. I don't really understand why ceaseless is allowed, it makes all the comically broken breakers here even more potent since everything grounded is taking 12-25%. More mons with access to defog don't even make this meaningful since ghold can come in and block, and ceaseless users can also simply knock the fog mon and cause them pain with rocks. Simply put, the move creates incredibly unhealthy dynamics in game and builder, and I think would help slow this meta down immensely, especially with other moves/mons like shuriken, ftrick, surging, medi, z-moves, etc allowed. It also doesn't help that a lot of offensive options just feel simply under explored, and this is only exacerbated by the slow nature of developments in nearly all NDAMs due to sparse team tour opportunities.
:Tapu Bulu::Rotom-Wash::Zamazenta::Corviknight::Ting-lu::Gholdengo:
Priority spam hstack was incredibly consistent in SV stab when all these moves were allowed, so it surely is the same here. I don't really understand why ceaseless is allowed, it makes all the comically broken breakers here even more potent since everything grounded is taking 12-25%. More mons with access to defog don't even make this meaningful since ghold can come in and block, and ceaseless users can also simply knock the fog mon and cause them pain with rocks. Simply put, the move creates incredibly unhealthy dynamics in game and builder, and I think would help slow this meta down immensely, especially with other moves/mons like shuriken, ftrick, surging, medi, z-moves, etc allowed. It also doesn't help that a lot of offensive options just feel simply under explored, and this is only exacerbated by the slow nature of developments in nearly all NDAMs due to sparse team tour opportunities.