Proposal On: SPL Format and adding VGC

[Django]

I feel like several things are easily and obviously true:

• VGC is more popular and accessible than ever, while simultaneously Smogon formats are beginning to decline in popularity. Champions is the main reason for both of these
• SV has gone on for far longer than any other gen, and people appear to be burnt out on it (note: I'd be really interested to hear from people who actually play SV in these tournaments, because right now I haven't actually seen anyone say they are burnt out personally)
• There is extreme uncertainty on what the next generation of Pokemon looks like between Champs and WW.

Given all of these, it makes sense that we would look at building bridges between Smogon and VGC more generally. As a community we should be looking to build closer ties there and piggyback on the explosion in VGC, rather than be left behind by it.

SPL is the next natural place to do this. Given the unprecedented situation we're in, I think it should be on the cards to experiment with. Waiting until World Cup is too slow, and one consistent criticism we have is that Smogon is too reactive and doesn't make plans for things ahead of time. Including VGC in SPL this time around would be addressing exactly that criticism, giving us a test case for how VGC exists alongside other official formats in our flagship tournament, and preparing us for a case where WW does not have 6v6 in the form that works with PS!.

I also find the arguments that the playerbase is dwindling and therefore we should reduce slots somewhat self-defeating. If our playerbase is dwindling we should be opening up slots to as many new players as possible, rather than relying on the same old people sticking around. New players are the lifeblood of every tier regardless of how old it is, and reducing slots does not serve the goal of growing and maintaining the community. If we don't think there is a competitive SV pool to fill 4 slots, then opening up to the most popular format possible (VGC) is the obvious way to make it as competitive as possible. (note: I do not agree that 4 SV slots is uncompetitive)

 

[ABR]

I vibe with the overall message of utilizing rather than fighting VGC's popularity, but this SPL just isn't the right place. WCoP fits better and if that's too far away as a standalone then create an individual tour or something. Idk how that would work alongside or instead of OSDT but that should be a separate "how should our tour circuit handle VGC" question rather than an SPL question.

If people don't want to remove SVOU slots then maintaining the current format is totally fine for the time being.

 

[Ruffles]

After reading everyone's posts and good points were made, I have a clearer idea of the situation. I still remain in support of incorporating VGC/champions but we don't have to do it right here right now.

There is no rush in adding champions now, even with the criticism of smogon being slow to react. If you think about it, champions may very well a long term stable side of competitive Pokemon. Forget 5 years, we might have that shit for 15 years. We still have world cup which is still good timing and honestly quite synergistic with VGC, and there remains an option to add a tour or have OSDT be champions (or a champions tour replacing it). The biggest upside of including VGC/Champions is actually the huge influx of new and intermediate players that Pokemon has been experiencing, but that would be tough in SPL, but great for singles tournament and WC, both of which are prime time for new names to shine.

However, please do not include 4 SV OU slots no matter what. I have had varied and extensive conversations with many players who play it and they're all sick and tired of the tier. I've never talked with someone who remains to be excited about SV OU. I highly recommend looking into alternative slots such as Bo3 and Bo5 which would be fun and would keep more opportunities for newer names with 12 slots. At worst, go down to 10 slots with 2 SV OU slots.

 

[qrChar]

I would like to echo the opinions that world cup is the more suitable stage to introduce vgc to a smogon major.
I've played vgc world cups, and one of the best things about them is that I'm competing along side people that I've met, or will meet, in person at vgc events. Vgc is just naturally regional in that way because of the nature of in-person events, you have a local community. There's a firmer connection there than just happening to live in the same region. And with more and more smogon players dipping their toes into vgc and heading to regionals, nurturing that connection through world cup sounds better to me than just throwing a random vgcers into the mines with spl.

Re: cheating concerns for VGC, would it be possible to just play on the official Champions app to stymie that?
[...]
The main issue would be setting up a stream so people can spectate, but that seems like a minor hurdle all things considered.

Click to collapse...

I would also like to follow on this to say that recording champions is very easy.
It's very simple for multiple spectators to join the lobby the players are in and to record or stream the spectator pov. Really the only difficulty is in having to schedule with a third party.

 

[lax]

I have already expressed some thoughts on the SmogTours Discord, and I overall agree that lowering the number of SV slots in SPL is a step in the right direction.

However, I think this is distracting us from the elephant in the room. I don't think having four SV slots is a problem because of the quality of the player base or of the games. We've seen some really good players emerge over these four years of SV. I think the real problem is the burnout that SV mains are experiencing from playing the tier. The issue isn't the SPL format, but rather the fact that nothing really happens in SV OU. I don't necessarily think that some bans or unbans would help, but even if this isn't the right thread to discuss it, I think we need some major changes to the tier, such as implementing regulations in SV or taking whatever other measures might help bring some fresh air into the metagame.

Circling back to the main topic, I don't think we should decrease the number of slots by more than one. Smogon isn't in a position right now to promote an elitist community in these tours. We don't have the numbers to compete with the VGC playerbase, and we should try to involve as many players as possible. Significantly reducing the number of slots would also lead to a worse experience for the average spectator.

I don't necessarily think SPL format is the problem, but I think there's nothing wrong with admitting that SV has been somewhat of a failure in recent years (not necessarily because of the council or tiering policies, as there have also been unfortunate circumstances, such as the advent of AI or simply the fact that this metagame has been around for so long). Our main focus should be on asking ourselves how we can improve our flagship tiers rather than trying to fix the format of the most important tournament on the site. We can not ignore that Smogon identity is mainly based on the Current Gen OU. Frankly, I don't think there's any good tier that could necessarily replace the fourth SV slot if we decide to keep the tournament at 12 slots.

Click to collapse...

I agree with Pais 100%. SPL CAN produce 40 SPL/Official Tournament quality SV players and new talent emerges every single year. The problem is within the tier and maybe a deeper issue with how tiering functions. Even though 40 SV players that are competitive is feasible, how many of those players are so motivated heading into SV’s final SPL? Well.. probably not that many. The problem is also obviously Gamefreak snubbing SV by making it 5 years without consistent updates, but we can’t control that.

I just don’t get VGC in SPL. I like the tier, genuinely, and have played my fair share of Champs. It just doesn’t make sense to include it because how many members of an SPL team will contribute to the slot’s activity? If we look at DOU in SCL, it’s similar. I like watching the games, but I along with 85%+ of teammates will not contribute to the prep or probably even run test games because the learning curve, effort, and especially time required to be truly Helpful is steep. We’re all older and you gotta pick your battles and presence as a teammate.

I agree that VGC should be in WCOP. It’s clearly the chosen tier of Pokemon and teams should have no issue fielding a competitive player. It’s the future whether we like it or not as Singles players primarily. WCOP teams also inherently (for the most part) have a stronger, more cohesive bond due to the nature of the tour. It’s easier for teammates to wanna put in that effort, care, and work to support a long term teammate. I would even advocate for an extra Sub slot dedicated just for VGC because the scene is so big, yet we don’t want to take away from the main Smog tiers too that outnumber them completely. In reality, teams might just add another buddy that plays STour tiers, but that’s up to them

I think SPL should be 10 tiers 2 SV or kept the same. The preference would be making each slot more “impactful” vs. inclusion of more talent and players. Aka completely subjective

Smogon is clearly not built to support 5 years of tiering and I think this is an important wake up call to make some adjustments. What’re we gonna do when Gen 10 is also 5 years? More conversations about adding Nat Dex, VGC again, or can we actually try to figure out how to work with OU and make it more appealing?

 

[oopsgtg]

I think adding a VGC slot to SPL could be beneficial in the short-term, but it should be one part of a broader push for integration of the VGC community into Smogon.

Firstly, I think it is worth giving some context about why VGC inclusion in Smogon is not a new concept. In the early years of VGC (2005-2012), the English speaking VGC community gathered on Smogon. From 2010-2012 there was a VGC individual tournament that awarded a trophy. SPL 2-4 featured VGC. The NPA (the most prestigious community-organised VGC Team Tournament) began on the Smogon Forums. In Smogon VGC's heyday, the top players in the world (Wolfey, Ray Rizzo, Cybertron among many others) actively competed in Smogon tournaments. In 2012, however, the VGC community largely left Smogon to form the Nugget Bridge forum, now defunct.

In recent years Smogon’s VGC community has been growing, with NPA hosted on Smogon once again after over a decade off-site. The VGC Community now is very different to when it was largely based in the Smogon forums 14 years ago. The demographics of VGC have shifted to an older playerbase, unlike in the early years when most attendees of events were teenagers. Rather than using forums, most VGC players prefer private discords with friends or Twitter/X for interaction with the wider community. The Smogon VGC user base skews (from my observations) younger than the overall VGC community. In my view Smogon has succeeded in attracting or cultivating talented players who do not attend many in-person events. There are still veteran competitors who use the site, but they are fewer in number than in some other online tournaments like the Victory Road circuit.

With that history in mind, I don't think it is infeasible to think that the VGC community could be more integrated into the Smogon tournament cycle. It was in the past and there are definitely opportunities to do so in the future. I don't think SPL is the best way for this to happen long-term due to the 'OU' focus of the tournament in recent years, but if the interest is not there for the 4th SV OU slot then I think Champions VGC would be a worthy substitute. Overall, I think WCoP or SCL would be a far better fit for VGC for reasons others have already mentioned.

To address some concerns about VGC in team tours:

• VGC is not uniquely vulnerable to bots/cheating. The most successful projects that have been shared with the public so far have been in VGC (and randbats). The same approach (with some adjustments to account for the differences between singles and doubles), however, would absolutely work for OU and OU (especially past-gens) should not be considered 'safe' from bots.
• The pool is really not going to be an issue for a single VGC slot in a draft CA tournament, I could see activity being a concern on weekends with regional tournaments, but this can be addressed either by just playing earlier in the week or having a substitute available.
• Players holding back their best teams will not be a significant issue. The VGC metagame is so transient nowadays that there is hardly any chance that holding onto a team for an extended period will be particularly beneficial, and what matters more is often the play rather than the team, as two players can take the same team with very distinct play styles and lines.
• Isolation could be a factor; but from what I have seen, many singles mains have been trying out VGC with the advent of Champions. Even if they are not competing seriously, the general understanding of VGC/doubles has increased over time and I am sure smart managers can build support around the VGC slot without many issues.

I am sure more structured discussions will take place later. But to conclude I think that whether or not if VGC is added to next SPL, it should be more broadly integrated into Smogon tournaments. In my interpretation, TPCi see Champions as the future of traditional competitive Pokemon battles, and so there is an extent to which our hand is forced unless we want to play increasingly obsolete modified versions of the games.

 

[ego]

I'm not sure if this position has been adequately defended yet here, so I'll throw my hat in the "2 SV is better than 4 at this point" ring.

• Last time this was discussed, Mada pointed out that records of top-seeded and bottom-seeded SV OU starters in SPL were only comparable because of quality of competition, with top seeds generally playing against tougher opponents. When he looked at seeds 1-20 vs 21-40 in the head to head, it was lopsided in favour of the higher seeds. This is more or less what has happened in this SCL so far. Top 20 seeds in SV OU in SCL VI are currently 28-17 against non-top 20 seeds (it's 25-19 if we look at players who cost 10k+ against those who cost less than that).
  • caveat

    [*]Now, there are different reasons not to overreact to that. For one, that's the whole point of drafting top players! If there was no difference between the performance of top starters and bottom starters, then I'd probably be more worried about the volatility of the tier. And second, the tour's not over, and a bunch of the players that contributed to this deficit are benched. The story is similar, though less extreme, for SPL XVII, anyway.
    [*]
• The SV OU pool this SCL is already quite weak, though. This is most evident in the roster churn. 47 different players have gotten an SV OU game this SCL, an average of 1.56 players for every slot in the tournament. Punny's currently slated to play an SV OU game this week, and once that happens, more players will have played games in the tier relative to the number of available slots than in SCL V, SPL XV, SPL XVI, and SPL XVII, and that's prior to any W9 nonsense. Over the last three years, only SCL IV had more roster churn in SV OU, and that was a unique circumstance featuring a massive banwave. Aside from the Foxes and the Shoguns, basically every team in this tour came into the season with a shaky OU3 (or even OU2) slot, where the plan was to draft like three options and go with the hottest hand. If teams are already generally struggling to fill 3 OU slots here, then I think there's absolutely reason to worry about what a 4-slot tour would look like.
  • caveat

    [*]This SCL is a bit of an outlier because of the amount of players either managing, locked out of the tier, or just sitting out. hellom, lax, Nat, xavgb, LpZ, Mada, ima, myjava, Storm Zone, JJ09LIE, Piyu, Baddy, those are all players not playing SV OU in SCL that would slot into the top half of the pool in SPL, to say nothing of, like, Star, bbeeaa, MDB, or Finchinator (who are all more likely to play another tier in SPL, imo), or the likes of oldspicemike, 3d, mind gaming, GXE, and any number of players that seem unlikely to consistently play this tier again. With only, like, SoulWind and Garay oak obviously seeming like better starters in another SPL tier, getting to 30 good starters seems pretty doable with good turnout.
    [*]
• re: Drifting

  [*]I'll disagree with Drifting 's post on one major thing: I do not agree that there is a surplus of players with good WCOP/OST/OLT runs under their belt who just don't have space in SCL or SPL. Here's my unscientific way of looking at it: there are 5 SV OU starters this SCL who got their starting position almost entirely from their runs at one of those tours this year. AgencyIsOwn, yerdunc, SirPeanutCronch, Silent Waltz, Tempo di anguria. They're currently 10-18 combined, and they were the BEST prospects from those tours. We can also look at Originality56 and their 0-3 record in SPL for this example. To be clear, this isn't me shitting on them; they're rookies, it's hard to succeed as rookies, and I hope that they build on this experience and level up next time like so many similar players have. I hope MinoGod54 and Vincent727 get their shots next. But they were the strongest candidates, and I find the assertion that there are more similar players that could succeed at this level dubious. I also can't really get behind your point on Franco/Gama/myjava, because a) good players have tough tournaments all the time and three examples just don't really indicate much of anything, and b) isn't it an indictment of the tour depth that established players aren't really in much risk of losing their starting spots for next time even after poor performances? Of course, this isn't really applicable to Franco since the STour and OLT runs mostly cancel out the weak teamtour records, but still.
  [*]
• So put it all together, and it looks like RIGHT NOW, there are around 30 strong SV OU players on the site; something like 15-20 currently playing in SCL and 10-15 that aren't but plausibly will for SPL. After that, you have a ton of players that can compete against the top but will hover around replacement level long-term. In a strong tournament that's your bench, in a weak tournament you might need to dip into that demographic for multiple starting slots. If you're willing to grant this, then I think 2 SV OU slots is preferable to 4:
  • This late in the generation, you're much more likely to get poor turnout (via the third manager slot, via soft retirements, via SV players getting bored and trying out another tier instead) than you are to get an unexpected windfall of stars coming out of retirement or visiting from their main tier. If you think SCL VI is a massive outlier in this regard that will immediately snap back to normal, I consider that much too optimistic. In other words, you're far more likely to have 20 strong SV OU players this SPL than 40.
  • The drawback of going with 2 SV OU slots if there are 30 viable SV OU starters is that 20 starters go to the bench and 20ish bench players go undrafted. The drawback of going with 4 SV OU slots if there are only 30 viable starters is that like 25-50% of the games in the tier each week are lopsided on preview with limited stakes, teams end up having to gamble more and more on their lineup as they're forced to rely on a volume strategy, and quality of competition skews player records far more than they should. We can have a discussion about how to preserve the player development benefits of teams rostering 5-6 SV OU players, but overall, I think the downsides of the 4-slot SV OU tour are worse.

I get why VGC is compelling, despite the fact that it's doubles and that Smogon has no ability to tier it; it's currently the highest level of competition in the most recent Pokemon game. 6v6 singles is impossible in-game, so we have to choose between breaking the all-OU format and continuing to ignore Champions, I don't fault anyone for preferring the former. I also appreciate that adding another tier of SOMETHING allows you to keep the theoretically optimal SPL format, which has 3 slots of current-gen OU and doesn't seesaw between 10 and 12 starting slots. My worry is that the tour format for year 1 of WW looks perfect; all-WW WCOP and 12-slot 3 WW SPL. If that's the outcome we know we want, I'm worried that adding VGC when times are rough only to drop it when alternatives we prefer become available is a disservice to everyone involved. Obviously, there are ways to plan around this. Beyond that, I don't feel qualified to weigh in on the merits of VGC here. My main point is just that if 3-slot SV OU isn't feasible for this SPL, 2 slots is preferable to 4 slots.