Proposal On: SPL Format and adding VGC

[Django]

I feel like several things are easily and obviously true:

• VGC is more popular and accessible than ever, while simultaneously Smogon formats are beginning to decline in popularity. Champions is the main reason for both of these
• SV has gone on for far longer than any other gen, and people appear to be burnt out on it (note: I'd be really interested to hear from people who actually play SV in these tournaments, because right now I haven't actually seen anyone say they are burnt out personally)
• There is extreme uncertainty on what the next generation of Pokemon looks like between Champs and WW.

Given all of these, it makes sense that we would look at building bridges between Smogon and VGC more generally. As a community we should be looking to build closer ties there and piggyback on the explosion in VGC, rather than be left behind by it.

SPL is the next natural place to do this. Given the unprecedented situation we're in, I think it should be on the cards to experiment with. Waiting until World Cup is too slow, and one consistent criticism we have is that Smogon is too reactive and doesn't make plans for things ahead of time. Including VGC in SPL this time around would be addressing exactly that criticism, giving us a test case for how VGC exists alongside other official formats in our flagship tournament, and preparing us for a case where WW does not have 6v6 in the form that works with PS!.

I also find the arguments that the playerbase is dwindling and therefore we should reduce slots somewhat self-defeating. If our playerbase is dwindling we should be opening up slots to as many new players as possible, rather than relying on the same old people sticking around. New players are the lifeblood of every tier regardless of how old it is, and reducing slots does not serve the goal of growing and maintaining the community. If we don't think there is a competitive SV pool to fill 4 slots, then opening up to the most popular format possible (VGC) is the obvious way to make it as competitive as possible. (note: I do not agree that 4 SV slots is uncompetitive)

 

[ABR]

I vibe with the overall message of utilizing rather than fighting VGC's popularity, but this SPL just isn't the right place. WCoP fits better and if that's too far away as a standalone then create an individual tour or something. Idk how that would work alongside or instead of OSDT but that should be a separate "how should our tour circuit handle VGC" question rather than an SPL question.

If people don't want to remove SVOU slots then maintaining the current format is totally fine for the time being.

 

[Ruffles]

After reading everyone's posts and good points were made, I have a clearer idea of the situation. I still remain in support of incorporating VGC/champions but we don't have to do it right here right now.

There is no rush in adding champions now, even with the criticism of smogon being slow to react. If you think about it, champions may very well a long term stable side of competitive Pokemon. Forget 5 years, we might have that shit for 15 years. We still have world cup which is still good timing and honestly quite synergistic with VGC, and there remains an option to add a tour or have OSDT be champions (or a champions tour replacing it). The biggest upside of including VGC/Champions is actually the huge influx of new and intermediate players that Pokemon has been experiencing, but that would be tough in SPL, but great for singles tournament and WC, both of which are prime time for new names to shine.

However, please do not include 4 SV OU slots no matter what. I have had varied and extensive conversations with many players who play it and they're all sick and tired of the tier. I've never talked with someone who remains to be excited about SV OU. I highly recommend looking into alternative slots such as Bo3 and Bo5 which would be fun and would keep more opportunities for newer names with 12 slots. At worst, go down to 10 slots with 2 SV OU slots.

 

[qrChar]

I would like to echo the opinions that world cup is the more suitable stage to introduce vgc to a smogon major.
I've played vgc world cups, and one of the best things about them is that I'm competing along side people that I've met, or will meet, in person at vgc events. Vgc is just naturally regional in that way because of the nature of in-person events, you have a local community. There's a firmer connection there than just happening to live in the same region. And with more and more smogon players dipping their toes into vgc and heading to regionals, nurturing that connection through world cup sounds better to me than just throwing a random vgcers into the mines with spl.

Re: cheating concerns for VGC, would it be possible to just play on the official Champions app to stymie that?
[...]
The main issue would be setting up a stream so people can spectate, but that seems like a minor hurdle all things considered.

I would also like to follow on this to say that recording champions is very easy.
It's very simple for multiple spectators to join the lobby the players are in and to record or stream the spectator pov. Really the only difficulty is in having to schedule with a third party.

 

[lax]

I have already expressed some thoughts on the SmogTours Discord, and I overall agree that lowering the number of SV slots in SPL is a step in the right direction.

However, I think this is distracting us from the elephant in the room. I don't think having four SV slots is a problem because of the quality of the player base or of the games. We've seen some really good players emerge over these four years of SV. I think the real problem is the burnout that SV mains are experiencing from playing the tier. The issue isn't the SPL format, but rather the fact that nothing really happens in SV OU. I don't necessarily think that some bans or unbans would help, but even if this isn't the right thread to discuss it, I think we need some major changes to the tier, such as implementing regulations in SV or taking whatever other measures might help bring some fresh air into the metagame.

Circling back to the main topic, I don't think we should decrease the number of slots by more than one. Smogon isn't in a position right now to promote an elitist community in these tours. We don't have the numbers to compete with the VGC playerbase, and we should try to involve as many players as possible. Significantly reducing the number of slots would also lead to a worse experience for the average spectator.

I don't necessarily think SPL format is the problem, but I think there's nothing wrong with admitting that SV has been somewhat of a failure in recent years (not necessarily because of the council or tiering policies, as there have also been unfortunate circumstances, such as the advent of AI or simply the fact that this metagame has been around for so long). Our main focus should be on asking ourselves how we can improve our flagship tiers rather than trying to fix the format of the most important tournament on the site. We can not ignore that Smogon identity is mainly based on the Current Gen OU. Frankly, I don't think there's any good tier that could necessarily replace the fourth SV slot if we decide to keep the tournament at 12 slots.

I agree with Pais 100%. SPL CAN produce 40 SPL/Official Tournament quality SV players and new talent emerges every single year. The problem is within the tier and maybe a deeper issue with how tiering functions. Even though 40 SV players that are competitive is feasible, how many of those players are so motivated heading into SV’s final SPL? Well.. probably not that many. The problem is also obviously Gamefreak snubbing SV by making it 5 years without consistent updates, but we can’t control that.

I just don’t get VGC in SPL. I like the tier, genuinely, and have played my fair share of Champs. It just doesn’t make sense to include it because how many members of an SPL team will contribute to the slot’s activity? If we look at DOU in SCL, it’s similar. I like watching the games, but I along with 85%+ of teammates will not contribute to the prep or probably even run test games because the learning curve, effort, and especially time required to be truly Helpful is steep. We’re all older and you gotta pick your battles and presence as a teammate.

I agree that VGC should be in WCOP. It’s clearly the chosen tier of Pokemon and teams should have no issue fielding a competitive player. It’s the future whether we like it or not as Singles players primarily. WCOP teams also inherently (for the most part) have a stronger, more cohesive bond due to the nature of the tour. It’s easier for teammates to wanna put in that effort, care, and work to support a long term teammate. I would even advocate for an extra Sub slot dedicated just for VGC because the scene is so big, yet we don’t want to take away from the main Smog tiers too that outnumber them completely. In reality, teams might just add another buddy that plays STour tiers, but that’s up to them

I think SPL should be 10 tiers 2 SV or kept the same. The preference would be making each slot more “impactful” vs. inclusion of more talent and players. Aka completely subjective

Smogon is clearly not built to support 5 years of tiering and I think this is an important wake up call to make some adjustments. What’re we gonna do when Gen 10 is also 5 years? More conversations about adding Nat Dex, VGC again, or can we actually try to figure out how to work with OU and make it more appealing?

 

[oopsgtg]

I think adding a VGC slot to SPL could be beneficial in the short-term, but it should be one part of a broader push for integration of the VGC community into Smogon.

Firstly, I think it is worth giving some context about why VGC inclusion in Smogon is not a new concept. In the early years of VGC (2005-2012), the English speaking VGC community gathered on Smogon. From 2010-2012 there was a VGC individual tournament that awarded a trophy. SPL 2-4 featured VGC. The NPA (the most prestigious community-organised VGC Team Tournament) began on the Smogon Forums. In Smogon VGC's heyday, the top players in the world (Wolfey, Ray Rizzo, Cybertron among many others) actively competed in Smogon tournaments. In 2012, however, the VGC community largely left Smogon to form the Nugget Bridge forum, now defunct.

In recent years Smogon’s VGC community has been growing, with NPA hosted on Smogon once again after over a decade off-site. The VGC Community now is very different to when it was largely based in the Smogon forums 14 years ago. The demographics of VGC have shifted to an older playerbase, unlike in the early years when most attendees of events were teenagers. Rather than using forums, most VGC players prefer private discords with friends or Twitter/X for interaction with the wider community. The Smogon VGC user base skews (from my observations) younger than the overall VGC community. In my view Smogon has succeeded in attracting or cultivating talented players who do not attend many in-person events. There are still veteran competitors who use the site, but they are fewer in number than in some other online tournaments like the Victory Road circuit.

With that history in mind, I don't think it is infeasible to think that the VGC community could be more integrated into the Smogon tournament cycle. It was in the past and there are definitely opportunities to do so in the future. I don't think SPL is the best way for this to happen long-term due to the 'OU' focus of the tournament in recent years, but if the interest is not there for the 4th SV OU slot then I think Champions VGC would be a worthy substitute. Overall, I think WCoP or SCL would be a far better fit for VGC for reasons others have already mentioned.

To address some concerns about VGC in team tours:

• VGC is not uniquely vulnerable to bots/cheating. The most successful projects that have been shared with the public so far have been in VGC (and randbats). The same approach (with some adjustments to account for the differences between singles and doubles), however, would absolutely work for OU and OU (especially past-gens) should not be considered 'safe' from bots.
• The pool is really not going to be an issue for a single VGC slot in a draft CA tournament, I could see activity being a concern on weekends with regional tournaments, but this can be addressed either by just playing earlier in the week or having a substitute available.
• Players holding back their best teams will not be a significant issue. The VGC metagame is so transient nowadays that there is hardly any chance that holding onto a team for an extended period will be particularly beneficial, and what matters more is often the play rather than the team, as two players can take the same team with very distinct play styles and lines.
• Isolation could be a factor; but from what I have seen, many singles mains have been trying out VGC with the advent of Champions. Even if they are not competing seriously, the general understanding of VGC/doubles has increased over time and I am sure smart managers can build support around the VGC slot without many issues.

I am sure more structured discussions will take place later. But to conclude I think that whether or not if VGC is added to next SPL, it should be more broadly integrated into Smogon tournaments. In my interpretation, TPCi see Champions as the future of traditional competitive Pokemon battles, and so there is an extent to which our hand is forced unless we want to play increasingly obsolete modified versions of the games.