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SPOILERS! General Pokémon Anime Discussion

It's kinda crazy we're halfway into the 2020's (!) and Pokemon still airs all year round with only a few breaks. Almost every other anime now takes seasonal breaks (even One Piece now!)

I understand why Ash's series aired all year round, but like...this isn't 20 years ago. The anime isn't really needed as heavily to market the games anymore because well...it doesn't as much anymore. The movies ended for the same reason. I always felt Pokemon should go seasonal if they're trying to be more plot driven which Horizons is, but I guess they can't give up the timeslot on TVtokyo or whatever.

I always felt the same for the anime back in the day. You can tell a bunch of episodes we got during Johto/Hoenn/DP were just there to fill the timeslot all year round (usually episodic filler for TR to steal the Pokemon of the day or Ash to meet a new pokemon not yet debuted in the anime), when all those arcs could have been at least 30-40 eps shorter even covering the same content. But Ash's series was mostly episodic between the big events, so they made it happen, but Horizons and whatever series comes after this one doesn't have to do it anymore.

(Also as an aside, if Horizons goes on to late 2027, Liko will surpass Misty as the longest female protagonist in the anime. I know comparing Liko to Misty is odd, but I always wondered if we'd ever have a female protagonist in the show longer than Misty and it never happened (the original series is 275 episodes, so Misty got nearly 300 eps of screentime), but Liko could potentially come close.
 
precita said:
It's kinda crazy we're halfway into the 2020's (!) and Pokemon still airs all year round with only a few breaks. Almost every other anime now takes seasonal breaks (even One Piece now!)

I understand why Ash's series aired all year round, but like...this isn't 20 years ago. The anime isn't really needed as heavily to market the games anymore because well...it doesn't as much anymore. The movies ended for the same reason. I always felt Pokemon should go seasonal if they're trying to be more plot driven which Horizons is, but I guess they can't give up the timeslot on TVtokyo or whatever.
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I will not claim to understand anything about the Japanese television industry, but I wonder if the time slot is really that valuable or easy to lose from lack of use. If One Piece (which I presume is a bigger IP in the context of TV) is willing to take breaks then Pokémon can likely also afford to, plus TPC almost certainly has to clout to grab the time slot they want.

It's also really backwards to retain classic definition filler for a more narrative driven show when the anime industry has largely moved on from that. Comes across as out of touch.

precita said:
(Also as an aside, if Horizons goes on to late 2027, Liko will surpass Misty as the longest female protagonist in the anime. I know comparing Liko to Misty is odd, but I always wondered if we'd ever have a female protagonist in the show longer than Misty and it never happened (the original series is 275 episodes, so Misty got nearly 300 eps of screentime), but Liko could potentially come close.
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This is honestly kind of surreal to me. Even though I couldn't watch the original era consistently Misty was a mainstay and was able to recognize her as such back then. Liko's tenure doesn't feel as long by comparison.

Damn you, perception of time, you are truly fake.
 
Karxrida said:
This is honestly kind of surreal to me. Even though I couldn't watch the original era consistently Misty was a mainstay and was able to recognize her as such back then. Liko's tenure doesn't feel as long by comparison.

Damn you, perception of time, you are truly fake.
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The other irony is Misty was only in a little over 20% of the animes total episodes, counting strictly to the end of Ash's series. Ash's series had a little over 1,200 episodes, Misty was only around the first 275.

In Japan the anime started in 1997 and by 2002 Misty was already leaving, lol. Misty only had a 5-year run in the anime, which makes sense as the end of Johto was only Gen 2, and Ash's series went on through the end of Gen 8 in 2023. Even if you include her cameo returns in later seasons, she's still in less than 300 episodes overall.

It's really weird how Misty both simultaneously feels like she was in the anime a long time but then when you stop to think about it she was dropped when the anime was practically in its infancy at the beginning of the show. The anime was literally only a little over 5 years old when Misty was written off, and Ash's series went on for 26 years.
 
So, I watched the last episode of the Rising Again arc of Horizons and...

That was a really good episode. Liko and her friends have truly come so far, and I'm damn proud of the Trainers they have become.

Also, that was truly one of the most delightfully pathetic downfalls a villain has had in the Pokémon franchise imo. That rat Spinel lost everything, including the one thing he didn't even understand he had. Imagine being so far gone that your own partner Pokémon, an Umbreon, who evolves via friendship, ie a strong bond with a Trainer, decides to cut ties with you. For a character like him, Spinel really went down in a truly Shakespearean way.

On to the next arc!
 
https://twitter.com/x/status/2057764931508879626

Apologies for the double post, but here's the new OP song for the new arc of Horizons! A duet by Liko and Roy, the dual protagonists.

I like it a lot! Like the very first OP song of the series, it has a very shojo vibe, magical girl-esque, which fits with Liko being the primary protagonist and viewpoint character of the series, and this magical, bubbly vibe contrasts nicely with the shonen vibe the OP songs from Ash's era had, with that high octane, high energy, and intense vibe.
 
Something I'm curious about is how the Gen 6 era of the anime is perceived nowadays.

Back in its heyday the XY seasons stirred up a hype around them for the high quality of the animation and Ash's competence upgrade, the latter especially relative to the exceptionally derided BW era. Going into the tradition Pokémon League arc it even felt like Ash had a legitimate shot at finally winning, especially with the inclusion of his ace Greninja getting a super special powered up form to rival Mega Evolution. The Japanese translation of the final part of the Alain battle even made it out like Ash would finally succeed after over 15 years.

Then Ash lost to Alain, the title was revealed to basically be mean-spirited bait, and people got angry. Like "the entire Internet knows the show fucked this up royally because of how they teased it" angry. The era had been tainted by this blatant misstep to the point that the Team Flare finale immediately afterward was overshadowed by the controversy and it seems like it's all people remember of the show. Then when XY ended it felt like to me that the anime had the wind taken out of its sails and people stopped talking about it. At least until SM decided to let Ash finally win something, which we now know was basically a pity victory and even perceived as such due to the context lol.

So basically what I'm saying is: with the benefit of hindsight, how do people feel about XY now? Is it only worth watching the gorgeous battles on YouTube out of context? Or is experiencing the entire journey still worth it despite the awful league outcome?
 
How is Ash SM win a pity ? Against both the angry teenager and the Professor, that was legit ! And XY was just before SM, so that's a build up ? If you forget BW, Ash just improves from every generation until SM and then the biggest win in Journey !
 
It was a pity because the decision to have to him win was more or less confirmed to be influenced by that backlash, and even then Yuyama was likely going to have the kid lose again unless overridden by higher ups.

As for Karxrida's question: I always thought XY was okay-ish at best back when it was the current entry. For all the improvements, the series was still roughly the same at its core and all the praise people had for Ash's competence largely ignored how everything else about him as a character suffered in favor of being a perfect cardboard cutout. As for the films that took place during XY's tenure, nobody had anything nice to say for those back then (especially the Hoopa film... ugh) and they generally did badly enough that the films went in a different continuity afterwards. It's prob still up there as one fo the better entries, but I'd rather watch anything else than rewatch XY.
 
Karxrida said:
Something I'm curious about is how the Gen 6 era of the anime is perceived nowadays.

Back in its heyday the XY seasons stirred up a hype around them for the high quality of the animation and Ash's competence upgrade, the latter especially relative to the exceptionally derided BW era. Going into the tradition Pokémon League arc it even felt like Ash had a legitimate shot at finally winning, especially with the inclusion of his ace Greninja getting a super special powered up form to rival Mega Evolution. The Japanese translation of the final part of the Alain battle even made it out like Ash would finally succeed after over 15 years.

Then Ash lost to Alain, the title was revealed to basically be mean-spirited bait, and people got angry. Like "the entire Internet knows the show fucked this up royally because of how they teased it" angry. The era had been tainted by this blatant misstep to the point that the Team Flare finale immediately afterward was overshadowed by the controversy and it seems like it's all people remember of the show. Then when XY ended it felt like to me that the anime had the wind taken out of its sails and people stopped talking about it. At least until SM decided to let Ash finally win something, which we now know was basically a pity victory and even perceived as such due to the context lol.

So basically what I'm saying is: with the benefit of hindsight, how do people feel about XY now? Is it only worth watching the gorgeous battles on YouTube out of context? Or is experiencing the entire journey still worth it despite the awful league outcome?
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I often see people in comments sections posting praise of XYZ and wanting to go back to its style and tone so I guess in the long run the Alain thing didn't matter too much other than an annoying "Yes, but" thing. Even if one or both were pity wins perhaps Ash's victories in his two final series made that whole fiasco easier to forgive and set aside for the stuff people always liked

Look in the right places and you'll find plenty of Ash Greninja hype moments and aura posting to this day
 
The most perplexing thing to me about the final battle with Alain was the ultra-mega water shuriken that Ash-Greninja made, only for it to not matter. I thought for sure it would come up again in the final Zygarde battle, but nope. No such thing as Chekov's ultra-mega water shuriken.

I think the other part of the letdown was that Alain's team had no build up. Other than Charizard I think we saw metang, and then suddenly at the league he shows up with a bunch of other bruisers and unfeazant. Given the amount of screentime Alain got, showing more of his mons during the series would have helped.

I otherwise don't remember too well what I thought of the conclusion. I do remember agreeing with the "rip best artstyle" sentiment when the alola series was previewed.

As for Ash winning in SM, I think it has a nice parallel to the games' MC becoming the first Champion of the region, even if that may not have been the main reason for doing it. The final match being 3v3 was maybe a bit meh, but the Kukui battle was great, and they at least gave quick context to the mons of his we hadn't seen before (venu and empoleon). I think it would be common in-universe to say that winning the first iteration of a brand new league that lacked serious competitors or a systematic way to vet competitors is less impressive than winning an established league, but Journeys is meant to let Ash prove he really is Champion-level.
 
It's been a while but I'm pretty sure I had no issues with Ash losing because I did not think he would win, regardless of what the titles said.

I liked XYZ overall, just generally enjoyable. And the finale had Ash & his team get crucified and Bonnie cheerfully ordered Zygarde to murder Lysandre what's not to like.
 
I think I have a bigger issue with how Alain was handled in journeys. It was cool he appeared at all, but he barely had any interactions with anyone.
 
I mean that's what happens when you keep Ash around for 20+ years. His time to win the league was Sinnoh (or even arguably as early as Johto if that was his final era), but Kalos felt like the last time to do it properly. Alola league was fine since it mirrored the game story that it was the regions first league, + Kukui is comparable in power to champions.

I do agree most of the praise XY got at the time was it had the highest budget for animation compared to all the other sagas, and it followed the BW anime which derailed Ash's character. Now that we're so far removed from that it's not a big deal anymore (Horizons uses the same animation as Journeys and SM for the most part), so it doesn't really matter.

But yeah that felt like the breaking point for the long running fanbase, it's why even the writers finally realized it was time for Ash to go. Notice how in the early days (like Kanto, Johto, Hoenn or even DP), they didn't consider this, it's probably due to the online fandom being but smaller at the time + no social media + most of the original fanbase being kids or teens so the writers never knew what people were thinking back then.
 
Karxrida said:
Something I'm curious about is how the Gen 6 era of the anime is perceived nowadays.

Back in its heyday the XY seasons stirred up a hype around them for the high quality of the animation and Ash's competence upgrade, the latter especially relative to the exceptionally derided BW era. Going into the tradition Pokémon League arc it even felt like Ash had a legitimate shot at finally winning, especially with the inclusion of his ace Greninja getting a super special powered up form to rival Mega Evolution. The Japanese translation of the final part of the Alain battle even made it out like Ash would finally succeed after over 15 years.

Then Ash lost to Alain, the title was revealed to basically be mean-spirited bait, and people got angry. Like "the entire Internet knows the show fucked this up royally because of how they teased it" angry. The era had been tainted by this blatant misstep to the point that the Team Flare finale immediately afterward was overshadowed by the controversy and it seems like it's all people remember of the show. Then when XY ended it felt like to me that the anime had the wind taken out of its sails and people stopped talking about it. At least until SM decided to let Ash finally win something, which we now know was basically a pity victory and even perceived as such due to the context lol.

So basically what I'm saying is: with the benefit of hindsight, how do people feel about XY now? Is it only worth watching the gorgeous battles on YouTube out of context? Or is experiencing the entire journey still worth it despite the awful league outcome?
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Gen 6 returned me to Pokémon after my prolonged absence and the anime played a large role in continuing fandom. XY/XYZ offered the first traveling group that I genuinely would have loved to be part of.* There wasn't any contrived drama between them or forced fighting. Which worked for me. Who wouldn't want to be pals with Ash? Serena was a sweetheart and supportive while having a hugely relatable arc of not knowing her path. Clemont was a good support character even if he became largely stagnant and superfluous after Ash's Gym Battle with him. Bonnie was Max done right. Oh, look, a young kid can have a Pokémon and do something other than pretend to be a battle expert.

The Gym Battles rocked. Watching a veteran Ash battle on even terms with other talented trainers ruled. I have a soft spot for Gen 1 but Ash's Gym Battles, except for Surge and Blaine, aged poorly. Ash was a clueless novice against trainers hellbent on killing his mons. They felt like life-and-death battles but Ash was too inexperienced for that format to work. It is not exactly riveting television. XY/XYZ made Gym Battles as the games implied they were: fun duels between trainers.

I liked everyone's Pokémon. Hawlucha, Noivern, Sylveon, Greninja, etc. Amourshipping isn't prevalent as you would think, especially after the early onslaught of hints. Really, the kiss felt like a bone they threw to the fans after spinning the wheels on the idea. For the record: I'm an Amourshipper, but they shouldn't have introduced it unless they were going to write Ash as conscience of romance. The oblivious Ash angle wore out its welcome, though, we did get some great Serena facial reactions.

Showcases were much better than Contests and felt less contrived. Instead of a format with pseudo-battles, Showcases firmly embraced the bond between trainer and Pokemon. It made sense that Jessie was good at Showcases; they naturally fit into her skill-set. DP tried to convince me that she and her Pokemon that were regularly blasted off by Little Normie and his Mudkip were semifinalist material. Sure. And I am dating Sydney Sweeney. One quibble, the arc could have used one more Showcase and I would have liked Palermo telling Serena her loss to Aria wasn't due to talent (Serena's performance dwarfed Aria's) but Aria's superior publicity. It would have been a nice lesson for children that often other factors trump talent (i.e. job searches). It is a more nuanced and truthful observation than the "there is always someone better" angle the anime insisted upon with Ash.

I'm likely one of the few that actually likes in-game Team Flare, but the show absolutely takes the group to the next level. Seeing the whole region rally and fight Flare ruled. It beat the old style of Ash and friends with random Champion confronting the bad guys.

A Sylveon was on the main cast.

It is not a perfect season as some supporters would claim (even before the League final) but the show hit the mark on what I and many others wanted in Pokémon: a competent Ash, great battles, some romance, an enjoyable traveling group, a villainous team with a proper conclusion, less Team Rocket, banger theme songs, etc.

*Scooby Doo Where Are You's gang is the other one.
 
Looking back at it as an adult, I didn't like how the earlier TV series story sagas, oddly during Hoenn, depict Ash as kinda meaner to his traveling group and receive feedback poorly from any Gym Leader who wasn't Wattson. It's almost as though being mean was considered funnier at the time, even though it really wasn't. I need to re-watch that story saga.
 
I mean that's how most shows usually are, and ironically enough people considered pokemon "too much for kids" even back in the early seasons. I think the big difference is all the later sagas of Ash (even SM and JN), just have him and his friends overly nice to each other with no conflict. I mean even the entire SM cast basically worships Ash (something people accuse the XY group of doing). Even Horizons is basically the same, with Liko/Roy/Dot all getting along.

I do wonder if part of it is the change from late 90's/early 2000's writing to post 2010+ writing, but Ash definitely had more character and spunk in the first few series. His temper pretty much disappeared as the show went on. Also find it funny how each female companion was largely tailored to Ash's personality each saga (Misty with beginning Ash, May with intermediate era Ash, Dawn with experienced DP Ash, etc), but they didn't portray him as overly subdued till XY onward. Ash's arguments with the female companions also died down after Iris, not saying they all have to be like Misty/Iris, but Ash's bickering with May and Dawn at times was a nice middle ground between being overly friendly (Ash/Lillie, Ash/Go or Serena), to something like Iris in BW
 

Oh yeah, a bit late to post about this, but next year we're getting another Pokémon movie!

This one has nothing to do with the main anime, but is an independent movie based on the TCG and is being made by CloverWorks!

Really nice to see Pokémon branching out in terms of animated productions and doing things outside the main anime, in addition to the anime itself moving away from Ash, and to see things being made by studios other than OLM. Hisuian Snow and Paldean Winds were made by WIT Studio and those were some good stuff.

Someday, I'd love to see a Pokémon animated production done by MAPPA. They're among the top brass and a Pokémon MAPPA animated series/movie would be peak!
 
precita said:
I mean that's how most shows usually are, and ironically enough people considered pokemon "too much for kids" even back in the early seasons. I think the big difference is all the later sagas of Ash (even SM and JN), just have him and his friends overly nice to each other with no conflict. I mean even the entire SM cast basically worships Ash (something people accuse the XY group of doing). Even Horizons is basically the same, with Liko/Roy/Dot all getting along.

I do wonder if part of it is the change from late 90's/early 2000's writing to post 2010+ writing, but Ash definitely had more character and spunk in the first few series. His temper pretty much disappeared as the show went on. Also find it funny how each female companion was largely tailored to Ash's personality each saga (Misty with beginning Ash, May with intermediate era Ash, Dawn with experienced DP Ash, etc), but they didn't portray him as overly subdued till XY onward. Ash's arguments with the female companions also died down after Iris, not saying they all have to be like Misty/Iris, but Ash's bickering with May and Dawn at times was a nice middle ground between being overly friendly (Ash/Lillie, Ash/Go or Serena), to something like Iris in BW
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Serena had a pretty big argument with Ash during his final gym saga where he was losing confidence in his bond with Greninja. She threw snowballs at him

to make this post a little longer, good lord pokemon shippers are out of this world lmao, good thing we aren't in the Fanfiction era anymore
 
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I'm Tapu Bulu said:
Serena had a pretty big argument with Ash during his final gym saga where he was losing confidence in his bond with Greninja. She threw snowballs at him

to make this post a little longer, good lord pokemon shippers are out of this world lmao, good thing we aren't in the Fanfiction era anymore
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No one's shipping Liko and Roy together? lol
 
There's still shipping debates on social media, not so much on forums anymore. Go to twitter/tumblr or the youtube comment section and you'll see it. It's true in Horizons people don't ship as much, largely cause Ash is gone.

It's very funny to me that how mixed everyone was on Ash's character over the years of the anime, people were obsessive about shipping him with whatever girl they liked most. Probably also didn't help matters that most people originally grew up watching the 4kids dub of the early seasons and people didn't watch the Japanese version back then, so most of the western population genuinely believed the writers were setting up Misty to "declare her love for Ash" and become a couple. So when Misty left the cast at the end of Johto in 2002, most of these people went beserk and some of the more vocal ones wasted decades of their lives trolling pokemon forums (like serebii and bulbagarden) for years over her leaving, and somehow believe whining on english-speaking message boards were going to somehow magically convince the Japanese writers to make Misty a main character again (keep in mind this was during the Hoenn and DP days, so I'm mostly speaking from 2002-2010).

The shipping debates died down around the BW era, since when Brock finally left too it finally clued these people in that the original trio was never going to be reunited for a full series again. However once Serena was introduced in XY, naturally that stirred up the shipping debates again and from there on out even into the SM anime and beyond we had a mix of old 30+ year old fans and younger Gen-Z kids who grew up with the XY era all fighting each other until Ash finally left.

The writers really did make the right decision of having Ash wind up with no one by the last episode, that way shippers can all believe whatever ship they like can still happen even with Ash gone.
 
precita said:
The writers really did make the right decision of having Ash wind up with no one by the last episode, that way shippers can all believe whatever ship they like can still happen even with Ash gone.
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Pikachu is right there by his side!
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Don't worry, Team Rocket is close behind.
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