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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4

I have some rain techs people should try but I'm kind of a dumbass so factor that in

:sv/goodra:
Goodra @ Leftovers
Ability: Hydration
Tera Type: Electric
EVs: 252 HP / 240 Def / 16 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Thunder
- Toxic
- Rest

Triple status monster.... This mon feels really good on rain. It definitely presents a pacing mismatch with rain teams which often don't want to sit around for long periods of time, but I think it can justify itself sometimes. The grass / electric resists are nice for rain, and it switches into half the tier, heals to full in a single turn (and is immune to status), and there's not much that isn't threatened by one of these moves. Scald hits pretty hard in rain so something like Gliscor isn't switching in. Glowking's the most annoying answer, but it gets burned, and it also can't poison you while rain is up or do any real damage. I've been pairing it with Specs Hex Swift Swim Basculegion-F because of Glowking / the dumb amount of status spreading. The special bulk is extraordinary even with no SpDef EVs, and the physical bulk is solid with the investment. Calm nature with uninvested spdef seems weird on the surface but a 10% boost to a 150 base stat is substantial enough that I think it's actually optimal? Someone correct me if I'm wrong. Tera Elec makes Thunder hit hard, but it is mostly there to be able to poison and sit on Raging Bolt sometimes (also helps vs plot Gholdengo). Wellspring's not a perfect matchup because of the rain boost, but you can often tank a hit and poison it. Tera water Ivy Cudgel is not a fun time though.

One thing I wanna note about this mon which is kinda unique is that you can click Toxic on the switch against a mon that is faster than you and does let's say 80% to you. You proceed to spam Rest and return to full at the end of every turn, so you can actually sort of win that matchup. Hydration is such a wild ability.

Edit: You also sit on Pecharunt forever unless it nasty plots repeatedly it's very funny

:sv/espeon:
Espeon @ Colbur Berry
Ability: Magic Bounce
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 196 HP / 60 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psyshock
- Weather Ball
- Thunder Wave
- Calm Mind

In rain specifically, I think this mon justifies itself sometimes as a hazard blocker. Mon also outspeeds Walking Wake and ties Wellspring which is pretty nice for rain teams. Weather Ball in rain hits really damn hard and targets so many important mons. Psychic STAB + water pseudo-STAB is surprisingly potent 2-move coverage outside of like Hamurott. I'm sure this set is not optimized, but the bulk is there to aid the hazard blocking. Unboosted Weather Ball one-shots uninvested Treads, basically all Tusk, and offensive Glimmora (fat Glim is 50/50) while also blocking their hazards, and it's also doing a ton to Gliscor and even doing 35-40 to Ting-Lu unboosted. Shit like Gholdengo and Kingambit can't switch in easily. A lot of the mons you want to check run Knock sometimes so Colbur is there for that. It also often lets you paralyze a Darkrai (just kidding it flinched you) or Hamurott or whatever. CM and Psyshock are mostly there to increase your threat level vs passive shit but you could slot in Alluring Voice if you really hate Hamurott. Twave's really useful for a host of mons that you're not able to outright OHKO. Mon actually pairs really nicely with Pelipper itself since that mon discourages the ground move click.

You could go more offensive with this guy. I have wondered a bit about specs since psychic STAB + pseudo STAB weather ball is already genuinely threatening to most of the meta with the set above, so cranking that up a ton sounds very scary, and you can still block hazards in a pinch. It'd obviously be worse as a hazard blocker though. I haven't personally screwed around with it.
 
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Magcargo said:
Order of operations probably should be Clay Test -> Moon test, as Moon was notoriously good on screens as well.

Idk, Hard to say how it will affect the metagame. I imagine many cheesers that rose up post Moon like Zarude, Cress, Ceruledge, and more would see less usage - as a large reason these Pokémon rose up was to fulfill a void left behind by Moon. Moon may be more easily dealt with alone than the the aforementioned mons are in combination with one another. But at the same time dd mons like Moon are annoying to contain asw. We'll probably see more usage of mons like Garg, Corv, Weavile, Tera Fairy Bolt to contain it like the previous Moon meta.

I think my worry is that - now that the cat is out of the bag & players have been running mons like Cress, Ledge, etc. that Moon will not sufficiently dissuade their usage if it is re-added to the metagame.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse...
I agree with your last paragraph. I want to see Moon tested, but it’s really hard for me to imagine a super offensive balance breaker Mon that works best on HO negatively impacting how HO is played.
 
There's been a lot of discourse on SV recently and I made this post partly out of annoyance but just to help people who aren't completely aware about SV get a bit more context.

Table Of Contents:
I. RPS
II. Too Many Mons
III. How To Fix It
IV. Ladder
V. Tera Blast & Roaring Moon

I was writing up this post then I saw a ss from 3d in smogtours that he sent after being asked if another dlc would save SV. He responded with this ss from vert
1434.jpg

RPS
I think SV has a very strange dynamic currently seen in tours, ladder, and videos. The RPS dynamic of the tier is a bigger issue than ever. The amount of threats you have to prepare for in the builder is an incredibly huge amount and practically an impossible task currently. You can see this on most teams, especially in balance as that's really the archetype that has to plan around and have checks to these individual sweepers.

:ogerpon_wellspring:
:Dragonite:
:gholdengo:
:Darkrai:
:Ceruledge:
:raging_bolt:
:kingambit:
:iron_valiant:
:zamazenta:
:gliscor:
:Cresselia:
:rillaboom:
:iron_moth:
:ceruledge:
:zamazenta:
:gholdengo:
:ogerpon_wellspring:
:kingambit:
:Deoxys_speed:
:darkrai:
:walking_wake:
:hoopa_unbound:
:ursaluna:
:kyurem:
:primarina:
:raging_bolt:
The insane list of strong mons that provide issues for balance and stall teams is ever-present. The amount of threats in the tier are a huge cause of the RPS feeling.

For this example, lets take a look at 3 common balance teams this olt/scl
:alomomola:-:Zapdos:-:iron_crown:-:ursaluna:-:lokix:-:cinderace:
:blissey:-:skarmory:-:heatran:-:ogerpon_wellspring:-:great_tusk:-:pecharunt:
:ogerpon:-:ting_lu:-:gliscor:-:gholdengo:-:dragonite:-:Moltres:
All are amazing teams but aren't safe from certain sweepers/breakers falling to the RPS nature.

Lets take this common core :walking_wake::raging_bolt::Ninetales: and put it against each of these three teams.
The Alo team doesn't have a switch in.
the Blissey team can win because of W-Oger Heatran and Bliss
the third team has an ok matchup against Sun but bolt is very scary.

Another great example is mixed :kyurem: with Ice spear DD ep freeze dry.
The Alo team struggles over time as it can keep coming in since they only have ace for hazards
the Blissey team loses pretty fast as skarm takes too much from freeze dry
The third team has a good matchup with Moltres

Finally, lets look at :ursaluna:
With tickle Alo, and their own ursa, they can stall out burn turns and kill it with only some difficulty
The Bliss skarm is also well handled with idef bp skarm, and pech in the back for 50/50 Incase skarm dies to a fire punch
This teams best ursa switch in is Moltres and gholdengo and breaks very quickly. If they have an Alo to heal it, its practically a guarantee win.

My point with this is that these teams no matter how solid they are, have too many things to deal with and just lose to a decent amount of threats. If you load the wrong breakers though you can easily get farmed, hence RPS nature.

The RPS analogy goes much farther then just balance losing. Despite the amount of people saying stalls are awful, it's an amazing fish in bo3 sets like in OLT. Many players would rather take the gamble loading stall assuming they will load into a good matchup. This has led into an extreme uptick in the amount of Ursaluna being brought fit onto every team structure out of fear of getting stalled out. Lokix has seen a similar rise as well with teams containing both of these mons together seeing high usage, with the hope that no matter what you play against you can still win with your "fish" mons. I don't think. Metagame where ursa and lokix and thriving is a good sign of anything I'll be honest.

Examples Of Match up Wins:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ou-980004
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ou-980012
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ou-980014
G1 was a lokix fish from supa, which mino won due to some favorable para luck
G2 was an instant win on lead for mental herb tera electric cresselia.
G3 offensive zap and cb grasspon win without much counterplay
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ou-974581
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ou-974591?p2
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ou-974609?p2
G1 Cresselia and Za combo just wins, hard matchup for zugu
G2 zugu loads ursa Alo into stall
G3 first even matchup of the set and zugu wins
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ou-981174
Pata loads Sun into Vert, but Vert has an insane mu with Amoonguss, Clodsire, Blissey, and Weavile game was over immediately

Examples Of Good Sets With Even Matchups

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ou-979096
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ou-979105
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ou-979127
both players bring a bo/balance style throughout all the games and have a close series
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ou-969100
Separation wins a good game breaking through with roost DD dnite

Ladder
Ofc you could just chalk this all up to a good scout which is probably part of it, but this problem also pertains to the ladder, Which is my next point. The amount of different team styles and mons you have to prep for can make ladder feel extremely annoying especially considering how old SV is, people will ladder with anything so coming up a team to deal with all of that is practically impossible.

All of these issues are just encapsulated even more especially with the amount of bots on the ladder

Obviously there's no point in saying all of this if I don't have a reason or a solution, so here's what I would do if it was up to me.

:light_clay:
Light clay doesn't really add anything to this dynamic of RPS just kind of worsens it. The issues with a lot of sweepers and breakers becomes even worse for balance/bo who can't deal enough damage to make good trades and can get forced out. Players like Vert and SZ have shown that screens can be thrown on every single archetype or offense style, and make it work.

:ceruledge:
The biggest sleeper threat in the whole tier. Tera ghost is extremely powerful and practically unwallable across the entire tier. Well some mons like Gambit, H-Rott, and Garg provide early checks for it, will be quickly weakened throughout the course of the game. Defensive teams have chosen to use things like tera normal heatran and itemless pex on occasion. WQ stall also uses tera dark dozo to dodge the 2hko from tera ghost poltergeist (and cuz its monoattack crunch but its good for ceru so I'm putting it here) It also can even use CC to ohko its biggest checks giving you the possibility of a free kill per game. Another big reason for banning it is because this mon doesn't add ANYTHING to the tier so banning it only provides positives.

:terapagos:
I've talked about this 100 times and so have others. I just think its dumb to keep it behind bars because of rules against complex bans from gen 5 but no point going over this again.

:SV/kyurem:
This mon is an awful mon for the metagame. Hellom and Francos olt set from today was an amazing example of this.
Franco loaded assault vest kyurem and lead it into hellom's primarina. Franco traded 60% on kyurem for 40% on prim. To save the prim, hellom went Kyurem just to get frozen instantly, so the lead mon went 1.5 and came back in to get a free pivot later. In the 2nd game, hellom brought it this time. It got up one DD, went tera ghost and used scale, spear, shadow claw and got 6 kills. The point is that currently, kyurem can fill like one of 10 roles on a team being extremely volatile with incredible bulk and damage.
:leftovers: :choice_specs: :loaded_dice: :heavy_duty_boots: :never_melt_ice: :choice_scarf: :assault_vest: all are incredible sets which can be slightly terrifying the amount of choices it gets. Also if tours are anything to go off of, its an amazing mon in SCl. With the 12th most usage, it has a whopping 57.69% win rate the third highest behind Woger and Rai but more on those later. That's enough on the mon itself, now moving onto its arguably strongest and most annoying ability freeze. An incredibly cheap and comically status that is just flat out game ruining. bbeeaa had to deal with that a lot this olt.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ou-972538
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ou-979057?p2
On top of this its just a top 3 breaker in the tier. Obviously, not the av and scarf sets, but other sets can easily break through most balance and even offense teams. The ability to quickly gain momentum on a switch and threaten a freeze possibilty or specs blizzard. On top of all this, the most popular team used by bots is the rainbow, a team so strong its become its own sort of archetype, with countless versions all on the back of Kyurem.

Other ideas I've heard thrown around and I think we've become numb to in sv and should prob look at

:ogerpon_wellspring: Whether you want to admit or not, this mon is ridiculous. I personally see a ban being a bit excessive but it would be warranted. Also highest win rate in scl and fifth most usage which probably means something

:Darkrai: another mon weve just kind of gotten used to and forgotten about how good it is. 10th most used in scl and 2nd highest win rate. It has a giant movepool it can run and just destroys a lot of things. Amazing speed tier, great choicer, all the coverage it wants, can run willo taunt n plot, sucker knock off black glasses boots lefties and lorb.

Tera Blast and Roaring Moon:
These are two really big topics that are still being debated. Tera blast was banned by only 2 votes, and people want to retest Roaring Moon now that one of its most common sets is banned. I think tera blast being banned is a good thing for the tier. As fun as the freedom that Tera blast gave when building was fun, i think it caused more restrictions overall, and going back to the vert ss in the beginning I think just limiting the amount of things in the tier is important and allowing more sets and bringing back certain mons isn't really helping fix the issues.

Roaring moon is kind of the same story just another strong setup mon and I think personally it might make sun a little bit overbearing in tier. It does provide a few nice things like another ceru answer, and a fast mon for the tier which is nice. I think it would be unfair for it not to receive a retest to further get a sense of what it would be like in the meta but my opinions might change during the suspect. :/

I do think the realistic and unfortunate truth is that SV will kind of stay in this awkward point until it becomes a past gen. It's much harder to make decisions currently and I think in a year time, things will get a lot better for the tier, as we can experiment and try out new bans more easily.

TLDR: The amount of things you have to deal with and large amount of sweepers and breakers to plan around can is a sisyphean task.
also i reached out to vert, ty for letting me use that ss I think it summarizes what im trying to say overall.

Yeah that's all I got really appreciate anyone who read through fully its kind of a yap (i think like 1800 words oops)

sv ladder achievements are here :D go look at those btw
 
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Finchinator said:
Quick Claw and King's Rock should still not be allowed in competitive formats. I have held this stance for years and I understand the logistical hurdles people bring up, but my god we are missing the mark by so much.
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Click to collapse...
if we're back to talking about quick claw, i should note that it's completely unviable outside of monoclaw setups and monoclaw leans on screens about as hard as it leans on the actual quick claws, if not harder. king's rock was independently viable, it didn't require you to fill up your whole team with it to get value out of, but quick claw's viability is entirely determined by how easy screens are to set up and keep up. it's a symptom of a larger disease and yet another point in favor of banning light clay
 
Ivanpmd said:
Those aren't banned because of being broken, they were banned because of their uncompetitive nature, just like Machamp on DPP OU.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse...
not every uncompetitive thing is banned, and nothing gets banned for just being uncompetitive. there has to be a certain level of problematicity and relevance to an uncompetitive element for people to consider it an actual issue. nobody's out here calling for a ban of focus band or metronome (ok there is like one person for that) even though they're pure rng and add nothing to anything. on the other hand, things like king's rock, acupressure, and dpp dynamic punch were allowed for a long time until they showed real high-level use cases. i think quick claw is in a weird in-between spot where it's got high-level use cases but only has them because it's being propped up by a separate thing (that's also independently causing other problems) and that's the only thing enabling people to commit to quick claw hard enough to get any real value out of it. if we were to get rid of light clay, i don't think monoclaw would be viable. if it is, then we can have the ban discussion
 
Hi SV OU. I have some interest in your format. hashtag can i have a breakdown of the meta and what's going on. cannot find a recent youtube video to save my life.
 
so i was trying to get some ho to work and tilted down to larping hell so theres only 3 teams teehee

Gliscor @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
Tera Type: Normal
EVs: 244 HP / 12 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Facade
- Knock Off
- Protect

it only took like 20 teams to figure out how to like using sd :gliscor:. granted i usually dont use it cuz its 1. a pretty eh ground type without running eq and 2. is a bit too reliant on tera normal without the benefit of :dragonite: imo. but i got it to work. knock facade here since :ting-lu: is pretty good as a ground type anyways, and :weezing-galar: isn't a big enough problem anymore to where id need it. I wanted fast specifically it lets me be really aggro against certain stuff like :landorus-therian: and even :great-tusk: if i was greedy enough. really works on hstacks that requires this sort of breaker. never using :gliscor: again though it was somehow the most horrible thing to use that was only barely above :keldeo: and :okidogi: before this team.

Pecharunt @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Poison Puppeteer
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Parting Shot
- Recover
- Toxic
- Foul Play

:pecharunt: has been slowly falling off in usage for a while now. not like :garchomp: level of bumhood but really noticeable compared to when it was glazed up and down for. mainly how often :kingambit: just kinda forces really predictable plays. i think it def still can be really good but it requires a bit more unorthodox solutions. even though foul play has somewhat fallen to the wayside given how hitting :gholdengo: is super important, it does have a lot of neat applications. the most obvious one is vs :ogerpon-wellspring: but also smth like sd :gliscor: that doesnt mind shadow balls and :dragonite: that sometimes run like cloak. those applications are huge especially with how physical attackers are always trying to find a way to break past the regular shadow ball pech. Toxic is also really good, since you dont have to gamble as much and can be particularly annoying for something like a tera ghost :kingambit:. i didnt feel like running those speed evs cuz dark pech is good enough against fast :kingambit: anyways. i think you can get a lot of mileage out of this goober just pair it with scarf :gholdengo: like a lazy bum.


Clefable @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Guard
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 Spe
Bold Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Moonblast
- Moonlight
- Thunder Wave
:clefable: was never smth i got around too until recently really. i think its just cuz how i built back then. now that im a little more experienced in building general slop instead of mcribs slop i can get behind clef. magic guard is still really good and combined with the bulk its hard to really pin down clef without having gotten twaved or smth. helps that clef is actually not bad at attacking with mono stab cuz moonblast is broken. i figured standard rocks would work and it def did. you really can get away with some matchups like against :dragonite: :zamazenta: :ogerpon-wellspring:. im noting clef since its actually getting a decent upsurge in usage. you can really annoy non tera elec :cresselia:. def worth looking into with more exploration. maybe lorb could be really good now
https://pokepast.es/7517af8725dc114e
this team got around top 40 ish. replay time
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2699176860-a15bveesmolsr23uf36800yy1jkvhoupw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2699177583-q2yrft7frlaca40u2a8qvct1od9kwirpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2699179417-3daq7gitmh4bo6vr5cwgq0amj2262ropw


Samurott-Hisui @ Assault Vest
Ability: Sharpness
Tera Type: Poison
EVs: 216 HP / 16 Atk / 220 SpD / 56 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Ceaseless Edge
- Flip Turn
- Sucker Punch
- Knock Off

my wonderful child av :samurott-hisui: has gotten a new makeover. theres a reason flip turn has been rising so much and replaced razor shell. the ability to compress pivoting hazard setting knocker and ghost resist is incredible and makes samu way more versatile. i decided to go even fatter with this guy. the 16 atk evs are just to ohko greedy :dragapult:, so i could just invest the rest in bulk. 216 hp for :great-tusk: headlong after 3 spikes and combined with the 220 spdef samu can take nearly any hit.
252+ SpA Protosynthesis Raging Bolt Thunderbolt vs. 216 HP / 220 SpD Assault Vest Samurott-Hisui: 312-368 (83.2 - 98.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Iron Valiant Moonblast vs. 216 HP / 220 SpD Assault Vest Samurott-Hisui: 314-372 (83.7 - 99.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Draco Meteor over 2 turns vs. 216 HP / 220 SpD Assault Vest Samurott-Hisui: 313-370 (83.4 - 98.6%) -- not a KO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Protosynthesis Tera Water Walking Wake Draco Meteor vs. 216 HP / 220 SpD Assault Vest Samurott-Hisui: 315-372 (84 - 99.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

i think samu can def be way bulkier if you really dont care about :dragapult: and just want to max out hit taking. prob good as well. i like there being more experiments with the goober. just let there be another av samu spotlight pls Marnie

Tornadus-Therian (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Regenerator
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Bleakwind Storm
- Heat Wave
- Grass Knot

im gonna be honest i forgot np is a thing sometimes for :tornadus-therian:. its basically the only other relevant set if youre not using av cuz boots is lowkey an boots :kyurem: type chud moment. regardless i think np torn is still pretty good. the ability to shred common bulky structures like those :ting-lu: balance teams is pretty relevant especially with how well it mauls common tornt answers for av. :clefable: could switch into av and just annoy it but +2 lorb bleakwind basically means something is dead. you could prob get away with dpulse + focus blast but for me i like the standard heatwave gknot cuz i wanna shred lu without gambling too much.

Kyurem @ Assault Vest
Ability: Pressure
Tera Type: Poison
EVs: 236 Def / 176 SpA / 96 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Ice Beam
- Freeze-Dry
- Earth Power
- Body Press
its shame bp :kyurem: hasnt really been seen much. its still a really good set that can shred :blissey: and fat structures in general. i thought tbh you needed some hp and spdef investment for this guy but turns out its decent on its own. you dont need to preserve as much health as possible if youre leading it or only have it out as an emergency case for certain mons like :darkrai: and :dragonite:. honestly kyu has saved my ass from :ogerpon-wellspring: too many times so i like it. still really cheap its just av is relatively honest.

https://pokepast.es/a5be7588ee0e0fc1
this team got around top 45. heres more replays
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2698011952-j36ww45a186wwa1xqdbpluo5o5j9tgapw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2698061174-u8b6nwjnfhmg8m9wn11poqfdb1h4qoypw

Samurott-Hisui @ Black Glasses
Ability: Sharpness
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 152 HP / 176 Atk / 180 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Ceaseless Edge
- Sucker Punch
- Razor Shell
- Knock Off

if you havent noticed yet, samu has been really picking up glasses. usually this set would run flip turn but i went with razor shell cuz i didnt need extra pivoting. the utility this set has is still really good though. glasses makes knock and ceaseless way more annoying to switch into. the atk investment lets me ohko :dragapult: with sucker which is super useful. being able to 2hko bold cress is also really useful especially as it still remains one of the most common answers to :cresselia:. the speed is just to outspeed :raging-bolt:. I think this set really has a ton of potential for new customization. i remember Storm Zone doing some sd flip turn samu which seems pretty neat. honestly you can mix and match some stuff like encore and sd but 4a to me is the most consistent rn.

Slowking-Galar @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Regenerator
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 248 HP / 144 Def / 116 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Chilly Reception
- Sludge Bomb
- Future Sight
- Psychic Noise

i finally found a pivot :slowking-galar: i actually like using. i think the mixed bulk is pretty good rn. you really only see for chilly that you go full phys def or full spdef, but mixed takes a lot of the good from both. you aren't nearly as afraid of idbp :zamazenta: especially if theyre 0 atk crunch and mixed :iron-valiant: wont give me a headache with glowking. psy noise + fsight is pretty good all things considered. outside of ice beam, the other moves just didn't work well together, and relying on fsight alone is a pain, so having a secondary psychic move that hits :iron-moth: :zamazenta: and :kyurem: is really good. av>chilly glowking though icl. use that max bold av it has aura.

Ogerpon (F) @ Choice Band
Ability: Defiant
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Ivy Cudgel
- Knock Off
- U-turn
- Low Kick

:ogerpon: is a really funny guy. sometimes i forget this guy is actually ou. with how boots has became the main reason why you run tealpon cb has been relatively far behind. tbh though i think its better than the boots pivot. you dont need to think super hard a lot of the time with this set. spam cudgel and then if you have to hit that knock or uturn. i went with low kick since :kingambit: and :kyurem: are nice to snipe really well. i think especially on more offensive structures cb oger really can dominate. just bring some stuff that forces a lot of teras and it should be chill
https://pokepast.es/02a0558268bf5eb7
this team got around top 40. heres replays
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2699538124-1jhohoin1anuyr8rdic27x9sy0xc48dpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2699540441-29fnpay27junx7nggdy87u3tn4q4gg7pw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2699533413-2tbwnumsaqt4n6lbtqu5yqeqjag6lnppw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2699530041-dlf3l2aich6ongk9ec0fegns228lbnapw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2699531672-s0kymrkd0ld3wc1mp9o2x2o8nwst4nipw
 
I think that if people are seriously suggesting "We need to ban 5-6 mons to reduce threat saturation, because it's impossible for a team to even soft-check everything" then maybe we should also consider unbanning a few centralizing threats. There is no shortage of boosting sweepers available, and every ban so far has merely seen another offensive threat rise up and take its place.

Roaring Moon, or Volcarona, or (insert mon here) might have relatively few defensive answers, but at the same time they're just better than some of the currently used offensive mons and would drive their usage down. It's easier to team build around a small number of dominant threats than a wide variety of lesser threats, and the downside of reduced usable options (due to being 'forced' to pick from a smaller pool of answers) doesn't seem so bad right now, since the alternative is having no answers at all to some mons.

Note that I'm not suggesting unbanning anything now, merely that we're getting to the point that I think it's worth discussing.
 
Alternator said:
I think that if people are seriously suggesting "We need to ban 5-6 mons to reduce threat saturation, because it's impossible for a team to even soft-check everything" then maybe we should also consider unbanning a few centralizing threats. There is no shortage of boosting sweepers available, and every ban so far has merely seen another offensive threat rise up and take its place.

Roaring Moon, or Volcarona, or (insert mon here) might have relatively few defensive answers, but at the same time they're just better than some of the currently used offensive mons and would drive their usage down. It's easier to team build around a small number of dominant threats than a wide variety of lesser threats, and the downside of reduced usable options (due to being 'forced' to pick from a smaller pool of answers) doesn't seem so bad right now, since the alternative is having no answers at all to some mons.

Note that I'm not suggesting unbanning anything now, merely that we're getting to the point that I think it's worth discussing.
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Volcarona isn't wholesome chungus enough to be the overcentralizing threat.

Also volcarona is a bit weird where it's both terrible cause any one volc set is usually countered into most matchups bar the ones its specifically meant for, and from an opposing/theoretical pov it's broken cause discussing it means pretending all those sets exist in the same match and there's few hard counters to every single one at once. You just end up with players running different types of revenge killers or walls to try and deal with the last volc set they seen and then bitching when they lose to a different one.. meanwhile that volc probably is a seat warmer in other matches.

Its not as splashable to be the sweeper OU like dragonite is just a flagship this mother fucker of the tier when tera blast is around. Volcarona you sometimes countered by teambuilding accident just depends on the set if it happens to be designed to setup on your would-be check.

Personally I don't mind saturation, not sure what exactly everyone wants; making a bullet proof team?
 
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Alternator said:
I think that if people are seriously suggesting "We need to ban 5-6 mons to reduce threat saturation, because it's impossible for a team to even soft-check everything" then maybe we should also consider unbanning a few centralizing threats. There is no shortage of boosting sweepers available, and every ban so far has merely seen another offensive threat rise up and take its place.

Roaring Moon, or Volcarona, or (insert mon here) might have relatively few defensive answers, but at the same time they're just better than some of the currently used offensive mons and would drive their usage down. It's easier to team build around a small number of dominant threats than a wide variety of lesser threats, and the downside of reduced usable options (due to being 'forced' to pick from a smaller pool of answers) doesn't seem so bad right now, since the alternative is having no answers at all to some mons.

Note that I'm not suggesting unbanning anything now, merely that we're getting to the point that I think it's worth discussing.
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This is kinda a bizarre take in my opinion. I think most people would agree that the meta is oversaturated with threats, but this suggestion just seems like we're solving one problem by creating a new one. Sure Roaring Moon and such might lower usage of other offensive mons by outcompeting them, but that doesn't really matter if those threats are broken anyway. You'd be trading a meta where it's difficult to prepare for every threat because there's so many of them for a meta where it's difficult to prepare for every threat because the ones at the top are so broken that you have to stack checks to have a chance.

I don't know if adding Moon back would even have the effect you want anyway-there's no single mon that Roaring Moon replaces completely and in all likelihood you'd just slightly reduce Garchomp and Kingambit usage. Those mons would still be present in the meta, and you'd still need answers for them, but you'd also need Roaring Moon counterplay.

I don't see how adding potentially broken threats into an oversaturated meta is going to have the desired effect, realistically.
 
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The 10th edition of OUPL has officially kicked off, with our first few games having already been played and much more scheduled to come this weekend (35 at the time of writing) - you can tap in and watch these live on smogtours, or check them out in the replay thread later on!
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To celebrate our 10th anniversary, we are hosting a Community Power Rankings competition with a 10k react score prize ahead of a potential December Likeshop. This will be open until 1:45pm PDT / 4:45pm EDT / 8:45pm GMT on Monday of next week, giving you time to watch the first week's games and see how things kick off. Our rosters have been announced and our starters fielded, so feel free to get your votes in now and find a team to root for in this edition of our legendary Premier League!

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There is an equivalent 10k react score prize available for the user with the best predictions for each week in the corresponding week's thread, adding up the total number of correct predictions made over the course of the tournament. Week 1 predictions are now closed as the first week of games has already begun, but this will be running throughout OUPL and scores will be tallied up at the end of the tour to decide our final winners. In the unlikely case of any ties for either this competition or the PR rankings, the prize will be divided equally amongst our winners!
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Have fun and enjoy our 10th year of the OU Premier League!
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Going off threat saturation. I mean this as no shade whatsoever, but a serious question as someone who started playing in gen 9. Why were Kyurem and Darkrai allowed into the tier during DLC2?

Even if you don’t think they’re broken, they certainly don’t help with an already super offensive metagame, not to mention their most commonly used moves have devastating secondary effects that add a lot of variance. I feel like DLC2 already had enough power coming into the tier and to stack those two on top of it wasn’t going to help balance much. It just seemed to me like people were excited about the idea of Darkrai being usable in OU.

I’m a newer player though so I totally get there could be something about tiering or balancing I don’t understand/am not seeing.
 
BobbyHill said:
Going off threat saturation. I mean this as no shade whatsoever, but a serious question as someone who started playing in gen 9. Why were Kyurem and Darkrai allowed into the tier during DLC2?
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Because if 2 undesirable but not proven broken Mons are banned, nothing prevents of applying the same argument to other Mons. I for example want Gliscor, Waterpon and Gholdengo gone from OU, but there is not enough support for that, nor there is for Kyurem or Darkrai. You need to get enough support and prove a Mon is broken/unhealthy to get it banned. Kyurem almost got it, but ended up avoiding Ban by just 1 vote, which also prevented Gliscor from being banned in the next suspect, who also got very close to 60% with Kyurem as a check allowed. As it is, right now nothing has enough support for a Ban.
 
Eeveeto said:
Because if 2 undesirable but not proven broken Mons are banned, nothing prevents of applying the same argument to other Mons. I for example want Gliscor, Waterpon and Gholdengo gone from OU, but there is not enough support for that, nor there is for Kyurem or Darkrai. You need to get enough support and prove a Mon is broken/unhealthy to get it banned. Kyurem almost got it, but ended up avoiding Ban by just 1 vote, which also prevented Gliscor from being banned in the next suspect, who also got very close to 60% with Kyurem as a check allowed. As it is, right now nothing has enough support for a Ban.
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But weren’t Kyurem and Darkrai both previous banned in gen 8? The mons you mentioned were not Ubers last generation. I don’t think they’re necessarily broken/bannable now, but just wondering why they were allowed back down from Ubers in the first place. Darkrai especially had no precedent of being in OU.
 
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BobbyHill said:
But weren’t Kyurem and Darkrai both previous banned in gen 8? The mons you mentioned were not Ubers last generation. I don’t think they’re necessarily broken/bannable now, but just wondering why they were allowed back down from Ubers in the first place. Darkrai especially had no precedent of being in OU.
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Darkrai wasnt in Gen 8 and the last time it was tested was Gen 5 and it ended up being fine, we also banned Sleep after banning Darkrai which was a major reason for its ban in past gens

The set that pushed Kyurem to a ban in Gen 8 (SubRoost NMI) is impossible to use because it cant use Roost anymore and removal cuts + an influx of Ghosts and Tera Ghost make non boots sets much harder to pivot in over and over compared to Gen 8, and Kyurem has ended up settling into being fine as well
 
We have dual screens Deoxys, Zamazenta, and Dragapult, but what do people think about dual screens Kyurem? The idea here is that there are three notable taunt users - Deoxys, Wellspring and Lando. Of these three, neither Wellspring nor Landorus have any business staying in on Kyurem for fear of Freeze Dry. Taunting Kyurem in general is such an unnatural thing to do, everyone knows that once this guy hits the field something is taking big damage. Additionally, as we have seen with Sub+Protect sets, Kyurem only needs Freeze Dry and Earth Power to threaten teams, so your Kyurem is still useful apart from being a screens merchant.

Deoxys can taunt it, but Deoxys also threatens Light Clay Zamazenta and is not going to taunt a lead Kyurem (they may knock, so probably not a great idea to lead into Deo) - most likely they will get light screen up, letting you get at least 1 screen up if you really have to lead Kyurem into Deoxys. Might even be worth trying this on those Kyu+GKing teams and bluffing a specs/scarf Kyurem, because you can actually bring Kyurem out mid game and get light screen up, and now the opponent is staring down a Kyurem with light screen and a snow boost to defense, so it can trade into the whole tier and let whoever comes in next clean up safely behind screens.

I was thinking of something like this
Kyurem @ Light Clay
Ability: Pressure
Tera Type: Ice/Ground
EVs: 168 SpA / 88 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Light Screen
- Reflect
- Freeze-Dry
- Earth Power

88 SpD lets you live two make it rains from scarf Ghold after you get light screen up, I'm sure EVs could be optimized further.
 
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I am seeing gyarados a popping up a bit often in OU, did some youtuber make a video that increase its popularity?
it hasn't given me any trouble, it must be some meme.
(yes you guessed it, I am playing on low elo).
 
Well I am bored and I was just beginning to play SV OU more actively again so I will share some thoughts on some pokemon. Nothing in particular just mons I find interesting.

:slowking-galar: This pokemon is in my top 3 favorites to use in OU with it only competing with Great Tusk and Pecharunt. It is a really great check to a lot of special attackers in the tier and unlike Alomomola, Glowking is actually honest. It also has surprising set diversity. There is of course the standard heavy duty boots with future sight thunder wave sludge bomb and chilly reception that is really solid all around as a slow pivot with great utility options and a move that makes weather teams cry, but you can slot in other moves like ice beam to hit ground types on the switch in or flamethrower to do the same to steel types. The item choice is also pretty interchangeable with stuff like resist berries, black sludge, and I think I even used rocky helmet once (though that might have been in Nat Dex). While I definitely prefer this kind of Glowking, assault vest is also pretty cool and unlike Alomomola who spams body slam like it is Jirachi to beat Wogerpon, Glowking just kills it the old-fashioned way. Overall, Glowking is a fun mon that I really like.


:dragapult: The truest Showdown experience comes from realizing that Dragapult can just click wisp + hex on your entire team because it outspeeds basically everything. For a pokemon that doesn't have much better bulk than Weavile it is shocking how well it is able switch in on many pokemon. Of course, having dragon ghost is helpful as that is a great offensive and defensive type (thank you Giratina) and heavy-duty boots is even more helpful. I don't think Dragapult is problematic or anything it is just funny how great it is when you play right. Whether it is spamming status or dropping a choice specs draco I would say Dragapult is a solid skill check in a tier infested with so many powerful threats, many of which it outspeeds.

:roaring moon: I was going to talk about Moltres next to round things off but in the middle of me typing out the Glowking section Finchinator dropped the Roaring Moon suspect on us so I am going to share my thoughts on it...again (and probably another time when the suspect is coming to a close). I don't think Roaring Moon should come back because it is a fast, strong, and even bulky dragon dance sweeper that makes a ton of healthy tier staples like Dragonite, Pecharunt, Glowking, etc. worse while making some of the less healthy tier staples like Wogerpon, Zamazenta, (maybe) Alomomola, etc. better. On top of that, screens will increase Roaring Moon's bulk even further while giving it even more chances to click dragon dance. I do think that if screens weren't a problem there would be more reason to consider Roaring Moon for an unban given some of its more positive qualities (I think Gholdengo is perfectly fine but it wouldn't hurt to have another answer) but it might still be too centralizing for its own good. (Disclaimer: I am not advocating for a light clay ban.) I believe that Roaring Moon should stay banned and while I don't know if I am good enough to make reqs I will give it my best shot.
 
UltraSword said:
:slowking-galar: This pokemon is in my top 3 favorites to use in OU with it only competing with Great Tusk and Pecharunt. It is a really great check to a lot of special attackers in the tier and unlike Alomomola, Glowking is actually honest. It also has surprising set diversity. There is of course the standard heavy duty boots with future sight thunder wave sludge bomb and chilly reception that is really solid all around as a slow pivot with great utility options and a move that makes weather teams cry, but you can slot in other moves like ice beam to hit ground types on the switch in or flamethrower to do the same to steel types. The item choice is also pretty interchangeable with stuff like resist berries, black sludge, and I think I even used rocky helmet once (though that might have been in Nat Dex). While I definitely prefer this kind of Glowking, assault vest is also pretty cool and unlike Alomomola who spams body slam like it is Jirachi to beat Wogerpon, Glowking just kills it the old-fashioned way. Overall, Glowking is a fun mon that I really like.
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Heavy on this Glowking part. This mon is genuinely (in my opinion) the best glue mon in the format. Its enjoyable to play with and against, fits on every single archetype (acid armor cm for ho) and overall just an extremely healthy and fun element for the metagame. Whenever i load a game and see this guy on my side, i just know im going to get my moneys worth. I am willing to say there has not been a single sv ou game where Glowking was brought and the person who brought it was letdown by its performance.
You can run so many different items and so many different sets on this mon and call him pregnant cuz he just delivers no matter what set/item/moves you run on this mon.
I firmly believe Glowking is the best mon in OU in terms of enjoyability/fairness and utility.
 
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