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Project Old Gen Hackmons Megathread
- Thread starter Ransei
- Start date
:Xerneas: XY Pure Hackmons Viability Rankings List :Yveltal:
Ranks S to A- are ranked by Viability
Ranks B+ to C are ranked Alphabetically
Bolded Abilities means the most viable/most common ability on a Pokemon
S Tier
:Xerneas: Xerneas Mold Breaker / Wonder Guard / Pixilate
:Giratina: Giratina Magic Bounce / Poison Heal / Prankster
:Blissey: Blissey Imposter / Wonder Guard
:Chansey: Chansey Imposter :eviolite:
:Mewtwo-Mega-X: Mewtwo-Mega-X Huge Power / Wonder Guard / Mold Breaker
:Gyarados-Mega: Gyrados-Mega Huge Power / Mold Breaker
:Deoxys-Speed: Deoxys-Speed No Guard / Wonder Guard
:Slaking: Slaking Huge Power / Shadow Tag / Wonder Guard
:Regigigas: Regigigas Shadow Tag / Huge Power
S- Tier
:Garchomp-Mega: Mega-Garchomp Mold Breaker
:Dialga: Dialga Mold Breaker
:Ferrothorn: Ferrothorn Wonder Guard / Magic Bounce
:Gengar-Mega: Gengar-Mega Wonder Guard / Mold Breaker / Magic Bounce
:Arceus: Arceus Wonder Guard / Mold Breaker
A + Tier:
:Kyogre: Kyogre Wonder Guard
:Manectric-Mega: Manectric-Mega Wonder Guard
:Mewtwo-Mega-Y: Mewtwo-Mega-Y No Guard / Wonder Guard / Mold Breaker
:Yveltal: Yveltal Huge Power / Aerilate / Poison Heal / Magic Bounce
A Tier:
:Rayquaza: Rayquaza Mold Breaker
:Gyarados: Gyrados Wonder Guard :gyaradosite:
:aerodactyl-Mega: Aerodactyl-Mega No Guard
:Registeel: Registeel Magic Bounce
:Ludicolo: Ludicolo Wonder Guard
B+ Tier:
:escavalier: Escavalier Wonder Guard
:Groudon: Groudon Prankster
:Scizor-Mega: Scizor-Mega Wonder Guard
:Skuntank: Skuntank Wonder Guard
:Swampert: Swampert Wonder Guard
B Tier:
:Spiritomb: Spiritomb Wonder Guard
:Ho-Oh: Ho-Oh Wonder Guard / Magic Guard
:Tyranitar-Mega: Tyranitar-Mega Huge Power
:Zekrom: Zekrom Mold Breaker
B- Tier:
:Abomasnow-Mega: Abomasnow-Mega Refrigerate
:Aegislash: Aegislash Magic Bounce / Prankster
:Deoxys-Attack: Deoxys-Attack Wonder Guard
:Kyurem-Black: Kyurem-Black Mold Breaker
:Kyurem-White: Kyurem-White Refrigerate
:Latios-Mega: Latios-Mega Protean / Mold Breaker
:Latias-Mega: Latias-Mega Mold Breaker
C Tier:
:Cresselia: Cresselia Wonder Guard
:Meloetta: Meloetta Wonder Guard
:thundurus: Thundurus Wonder Guard
:Talonflame: Talonflame Wonder Guard
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Why Arctozolt Is Secretly Good (Guy Tries To Build Gen 8 PH But Is Bad)(I wanted to make a post with pictures so I did the first thing I thought of)
:Arctozolt: :Giratina: :Eternatus-Eternamax: :Eternatus-Eternamax: :Regieleki: :Cramorant-Gorging:
Basically, I made a team for generation 8 pure hackmons, and I thought it was really bad (because it is) but I won a game against someone though pure fissure luck, so now I think the team is good for some reason. Also, I wanted to try using pokemon sprites. Anyway, I'm gonna talk about
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8anythinggoes-2683766874
You might notice that the replay had a doublade rather than giratina. This is the set.
Doublade @ Eviolite
Ability: Magic Bounce
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Impish Nature
- Spectral Thief
- Recover
- Substitute
- Guillotine
I replaced the doublade set with giratina because I thought cramorant was probably good enough for zacian, but maybe this was a mistake, I'm not good enough at the game to know. I stole the giratina set from one of the samples because I was lazy. Regieleki set in that game was a bad set (still worked really well somehow because of fissure), so I changed it to a standard set that I stole.
Now I talk about Arctozolt
Arctozolt @ Air Balloon
Ability: Wonder Guard
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Shell Smash
- Glacial Lance
- Stored Power
- Gastro Acid
So, I actually did steal this set, but I changed what pokemon uses it. You see, ransei created a kyurem-black sweeper set, but I realized that kyurem-black is actually bad. Kyurem-black is a dragon and ice type, which hurts its viability in generation 8 pure hackmons, as it has notable weaknesses to double iron bash, which let's zacian deal with it even after outspeeding with gastro acid, and core enforcer, which lets slower pokemon enable another pokemon to ohko or sthief kyurem to kill it (or core enforcer can just kill kyurem), both of which have come up in games where I used ransei's sample team. To solve this, I turned to the next best option, being Arctozolt, as unfortunately, despite being a fusion of an ice type and an electric type pokemon, kyurem black is not an electric type. I would've used darmanitan zen if it had an actual special attack stat, but arctozolt's typing is better anyway, as only is Arctozolt not weak to either of double iron bash or core enforcer, but also, it's immune to paralasis, meaning cramorant doesn't do much in terms of being a counter to arctozolt, which is a problem every other sweeper has to face. Unfortunately arctozolt doesn't ohko spdef emax even at +6 attack, but you could use a damage boosting item if you really wanted to, and it's not like they can really do anything to you (unless they actually do run something like haze or perish song, but people don't run that really at the moment).
Calcs
+6 252 SpA Arctozolt Stored Power (380 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Eternatus-Eternamax: 1012-1192 (141.7 - 166.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(max boosts)
+4 252 SpA Arctozolt Stored Power (260 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Eternatus-Eternamax: 520-614 (72.8 - 85.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
+6 252+ Atk Arctozolt Max Hailstorm (140 BP) vs. 252 HP 30 IVs / 252 Def Eternatus-Eternamax: 660-776 (92.5 - 108.8%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
(As you can see, arctozolt can't ever guarentee an ohko on spdef emax without items, but that's probably fine if you just use gastro acid since they usually don't use haze or perish song or anything like that)
252 Atk Transistor Regieleki Bolt Beak (170 BP) vs. -3 252 HP / 252 Def Dynamax Arctozolt: 368-433 (47.9 - 56.3%) -- 85.9% chance to 2HKO
bolt beak probably won't kill you on its own without a lot of sleeping, but lovely kiss has 25% accuracy, so you should be fine unless they have spore
+2 252 Atk Arctozolt Glacial Lance (130 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252 Def Regieleki: 420-495 (115.7 - 136.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
You can kill Regieleki pretty easily
252 Atk Regieleki Bolt Beak (170 BP) vs. -1 252 HP / 252 Def Arctozolt: 147-173 (38.2 - 45%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Regieleki will likely need to put you to sleep to deal with you. Lovely kiss should be managable since it has 25% accuracy, but spore will be harder to deal with, and it might be good to switch out when you get put to sleep and go to an aromatherapy user.
252 Atk Zacian-Crowned Double Iron Bash (120 BP) (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Arctozolt: 204-242 (53.1 - 63%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
you can technically click shell smash on zacian unboosted, then gastro next turn, but I wouldn't risk it because they can just flich you, which would mean you lose a lot of hp for nothing, or they could have trick scarf, which invalidates you
+6 252 SpA Arctozolt Stored Power (380 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Zacian-Crowned: 460-542 (118.5 - 139.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+6 252 Atk Arctozolt Glacial Lance (130 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Zacian-Crowned: 253-298 (65.2 - 76.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
The only way you ohko zacian is with max boosts and a stored power, as glacial lance isn't nearly as strong as kyurem's, but you shouldn't be able to take any damage (though taunt and sleep can force you to end your sweep)
Weaknesses
:eternatus-eternamax: Perfect prediction:
They can perfectly predict all your moves by switching between emaxes (and eiscue and dark types also), but this is highly unlikely. Setting Hazards prevents this.
:hatterene: Magic bounce:
They can predict you gastro acid, then switch to a spectral thief user or an ohko user or a core enforcer user and kill you, which is much more likely than them perfectly predicting everything
:regieleki: Regieleki:
After putting you to sleep (because they outspeed at +2) they can first use bolt beak, then use fissure to murder your bird with its own move. Bolt beak can also pop your balloon and allow other pokemon to use fissure on you
:deoxys-speed: OHKOmoves:
Sheer cold does nothing, normal type ohko moves threaten you when you switch and before you set up if your opponent's pokemon that uses those moves against your arctozolt has neutralizing gas, but once you set up, this shouldn't be an issue since most regieleki run fissure and bolt beak and you outspeed zacian. Fissure can threaten you after your balloon is popped, so you should be mindful of that. That being said, it is highly unlikely that anyone will run no guard fissure, and without that, ohko moves are luck based against arctozolt, but you should still try to minimize the amount that could land (though if they defeat your arctozolt with an ohko, at least it wasn't your emax).
:landorus-therian: Thousnd arrows:
Thousand arrows kills your bird, and landorus-t outspeeds at +0, but luckily, glacial lance actually deals good damage to landorus, so you shouldn't have to worry about it once you set up
:Glimmora: Stealth rock:
Stealth rock does 25% to arctozolt, and you likely won't be able to heal. That combined with possible bolt beaks could defeat your arctozolt
:Eternamax-eternatus: Emax behind sub:
You can't do anything to emax behind sub if they have rapid spin, whereas they can kill you
:zacian-crowned: Trick (and scarf mons):
Trick basically makes you useless, so don't get tricked. Zacian and many other pokemon outspeed you at +2 with a scarf, so it might be a good idea to scout for tricks. Regieleki, emax, and other pokemon might also use trick with a scarf, or emax could potentially have trick with black sludge, which would slowly kill your bird, though this isn't as detrimental. Zacian can also outspeed and kill you with double iron bash if it has scarf, so you should be cautious of that.
:spiritomb: Two wonder guards:
Two wonder guards can completely wall you if you don't set up hazards, but not many people run that. If you run arctozolt alongside another wg user, than you can wall other wg gastro sweepers, which might be worth considering because of the popularity of wg sweepers right now.
:arceus: Taunt:
Taunt prevents you from clicking gastro acid, which means wonder guard mons and neutralizing gas mons can do stuff to you
:Eternatus-eternamax: Lava plume:
Apparantly people run lava plume on emax, which would completely cook you since arctozolt is weak to fire, but I've never seen it used in a game
:Happiny: Low attack stat:
Arctozolt's special attack stat is suprisingly fine compred to kyurem, but its low physical attack stat means that it often misses kos that kyurem doesn't by a lot. Missing a ko on emax a +6 is especially bad.
:whimsicott: Encore(and many other status moves):
There are a variety of status moves that could probably end your sweep, including encore, disable, taunt (mentioned before), gastro acid (they need to use other attacks), haze, perish song, will-o-wisp, phazing, and probably many other things
:komala: Comatose:
Comaphasing will end your sweep, and there's nothing you can do about it other than getting an ohko on their comatose mon
Other:
I'm bad at the game, I probably missed something
More Replays
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8anythinggoes-2684154546
Arctozolt worked perfectly in this game, and beat both cramorant and zacian, which kyurem black would not have done
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8anythinggoes-2684159462
In this game, arctozolt did not work perfectly due to rocks and encore and magic bounce
Arctozolt Is Good
Arctozolt's current win rate in generation 8 pure hackmons is 66.6% (2/3 games), which is better than emax's, whose win rate I estimate to be slightly higher than 50%. Thus, you should always use arctozolt, because you will have a higher chance of winning.
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SSPH Personal TR (didnt bother to do any formatting)
S
Eternatus-Eternamax- Neutralizing Gas, Sturdy, Magic Bounce
Cramorant-Gorging- Gulp Missile
A+
Landorus-Therian- Comatose, Magic Bounce
Spiritomb- Wonder Guard, Magic Bounce
Giratina- Magic Bounce, Sturdy, Neutralizing Gas
A- to A
[nothing here]
B+
Zacian Crowned- Neutralizing Gas, Sturdy
Regieleki- Neutralizing Gas
B to C-
[nothing here]
D/E
Eiscue- Ice Face
Drifblim- Magic Bounce, Neutralizing Gas
Yveltal- Sturdy, Magic Bounce, Neutralizing Gas
EVERYTHING ELSE is UNVIABLE by all standards (non-negotiable). Every mon that seems to work other than anything from S to B+ is cause it is a blatant fish vs your opponent and/or your opponent is using an unserious team / is bad / misplaying.
[example: https://pokepast.es/7d74946b418dc795}
{best sample: https://pokepast.es/c9e01cb436bbe549}
S
Eternatus-Eternamax- Neutralizing Gas, Sturdy, Magic Bounce
Cramorant-Gorging- Gulp Missile
A+
Landorus-Therian- Comatose, Magic Bounce
Spiritomb- Wonder Guard, Magic Bounce
Giratina- Magic Bounce, Sturdy, Neutralizing Gas
A- to A
[nothing here]
B+
Zacian Crowned- Neutralizing Gas, Sturdy
Regieleki- Neutralizing Gas
B to C-
[nothing here]
D/E
Eiscue- Ice Face
Drifblim- Magic Bounce, Neutralizing Gas
Yveltal- Sturdy, Magic Bounce, Neutralizing Gas
EVERYTHING ELSE is UNVIABLE by all standards (non-negotiable). Every mon that seems to work other than anything from S to B+ is cause it is a blatant fish vs your opponent and/or your opponent is using an unserious team / is bad / misplaying.
[example: https://pokepast.es/7d74946b418dc795}
{best sample: https://pokepast.es/c9e01cb436bbe549}
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what about that wg gastro acid stuff ransei posted about several months ago? that sounds like not a fish and it should be effective against most teams
First, I want to say that I respect Ransei for trying to improve this meta, and I understand the idea and intent behind this set. He has good intentions for this. I can see the thought he’s put into it. I’ve reviewed the set carefully, and I want to be direct but respectful: in its current form, it falls quite short of being a viable mon. I don’t find it effective, and I don’t think minor edits would resolve the core issues. This is mainly because:
1. It cannot do anything against Dual WG teams or teams with 3+ Taunts — and I would not underestimate those teams; Taunt is excellent here.
2. Core Enforcer weakness is actually much more problematic than it seems.
3. A Cramorant could always stop it from sweeping with the standard Taunt + Heal set if played optimally.
4. Most importantly, many sets like this can be classified as “okay” or “fine,” but another mon would use that slot much more effectively — or, to put it bluntly, be worth a slot and have a genuinely strong impact. For example, a more consistent Flying-type for hindrance such as Landorus, Spiritomb is what I would recommend for that team, or another EMax for boosted consistency (even Imp/Sturdy EMax works).
> For instance, it cannot switch into any EMax or Zacian because of Horn Drill weakness (two Drills have almost a 50% chance to hit), whereas WG Spiritomb could help maintain the team’s balance to those moves.
That said, I respect the idea and thought behind this. However, substantial change is probably needed for this set to be worth a slot on a team, rather than small revisions.
I am definitely open to change my ideas if someone could show me its use.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8customgame-2701056784-f2rmbgklfbogw3ljlg73cvq0a3etssrpw
Notice how Cramo can come in on Kyurem pretty easily
Scenario 1
- It switches
- No Progress
Scenario 2
- Clicks an attacking move
- Para + Taunted > you go to your WG Spiritomb
Scenario 3
- Clicks Smash
- Taunted > you go to your WG Spiritomb
Scenario 4
- Clicks Gastro
- Taunted > you go to your WG Spiritomb
Notice how Cramo can come in on Kyurem pretty easily
Scenario 1
- It switches
- No Progress
Scenario 2
- Clicks an attacking move
- Para + Taunted > you go to your WG Spiritomb
Scenario 3
- Clicks Smash
- Taunted > you go to your WG Spiritomb
Scenario 4
- Clicks Gastro
- Taunted > you go to your WG Spiritomb
Would be great if you can fare 5 moves, but sadly this isn't Custom Game.
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:Eternatus-Eternamax: My New And Improved (personal) SwSh PH VR!!!!!!! :Eternatus-Eternamax:
As the newest member of the SwSh council I found it a good time to write up a post to get all my thoughts on the format out. I wanna say, I think there's a perception of the format as being a format where you can't be creative and where every team is the same but it's really not. If you know what you're doing and understand what the format requires you have a decent amount of room for creativity, though ofc the top tiers are very centralizing.Eternamax Tier
:Eternatus-Eternamax: Eternatus Eternamax
S Tier
:Cramorant-Gorging: Cramorant Gorging
:Regieleki: Regieleki
A+ Tier
:Zacian-Crowned: Zacian Crowned
:Giratina: Giratina
:Spiritomb: Spiritomb
A Tier
:Landorus-Therian: Landorus Therian
:Yveltal: Yveltal
A- Tier
:Eiscue: Eiscue
B+ Tier
:Calyrex-Shadow: Calyrex Shadow
:Kyurem-Black: Kyurem-Black
:Regigigas: Regigigas
B Tier
:Drifblim: Drifblim
:Rayquaza: Rayquaza
:Articuno: Articuno
:Zapdos: Zapdos
:Giratina-Origin: Giratina Origin
(This is ranked alphabetically within tiers from here)
B- Tier
:Darmanitan-Galar-Zen: Galarian Zen Darmanitan
:Indeedee: Indeedee
:Urshifu: Urshifu
C Tier
:Aegislash: Aegislash
:Celesteela: Celesteela
:Crobat: Crobat
:Dragapult: Dragapult
:Froslass: Froslass
:Grimmsnarl: Grimmsnarl
:Ho-Oh: Ho-Oh
:Mimikyu: Mimikyu
:Necrozma-Dawn-Wings: Necrozma Dawn Wings
:Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: Necrozma Dusk Mane
:Skarmory: Skarmory
:Zamazenta-Crowned: Zamazenta Crowned
:Zarude: Zarude
:Zeraora: Zeraora
D Tier
:Ditto: Ditto
:Doublade: Doublade
:Drapion: Drapion
:Gourgeist-Super: Gourgeist Super
:Landorus: Landorus
:Mewtwo: Mewtwo
:Ninjask: Ninjask
:Obstagoon: Obstagoon
:Reshiram: Reshiram
:Solgaleo: Solgaleo
:Eternatus-Eternamax: Eternatus Eternamax
I know it's shocking to hear, and it was a close race believe me, but Emax won out as the #1 for me. I don't have to explain why Emax is #1, but I do wanna talk on what I believe the role of Emax has become.
The age of every team running +Def and +SpDef EMax is over imo. Obviously +SpDef EMax is fantastic and helps a lot into sweepers, but it fails to provide enough general utility to be a 100% usage kind of mon. I have had tons of matches where the +SpDef does nothing and in a MU based format like this what's really the point of jamming a Pokemon who's not always going to provide enough in a match onto every team. Dropping +SpDef Emax can make you vulnerable to certain sweepers but often you can afford just running other sweeper checks like Dark types and Zacian which is usually enough. Some matchups get really scary without +SpDef Emax (eg Moonblast Caly or TArrows Kyu-B) but for the added consistency into so much of the format; dropping it, whether for a +Spe Emax or whatever else, is often very worthwhile.
The age of every team running +Def and +SpDef EMax is over imo. Obviously +SpDef EMax is fantastic and helps a lot into sweepers, but it fails to provide enough general utility to be a 100% usage kind of mon. I have had tons of matches where the +SpDef does nothing and in a MU based format like this what's really the point of jamming a Pokemon who's not always going to provide enough in a match onto every team. Dropping +SpDef Emax can make you vulnerable to certain sweepers but often you can afford just running other sweeper checks like Dark types and Zacian which is usually enough. Some matchups get really scary without +SpDef Emax (eg Moonblast Caly or TArrows Kyu-B) but for the added consistency into so much of the format; dropping it, whether for a +Spe Emax or whatever else, is often very worthwhile.
S Tier
:Cramorant-Gorging: Cramorant Gorging
:Regieleki: Regieleki
:Cramorant-Gorging: Cram is the best and most consistent check to Sub EMax and Zacian in the format and kinda just amazing into everything else that isn't an Electric type or Coma. Cram's biggest weakness is an obvious one, it's not NGas which means it's vulnerable to STag and it can't touch WG and a lot of other annoyances. But for how much it forces almost everything to tiptoe around it and the Flying type making it very splashable I feel confident in saying Cram is the #2 of the format.
:Regieleki: Eleki is absurd, outside of Emax I feel confident in saying Eleki is the hardest to build around mon in the entire format and has the most versitility in its sets. The standard NGas Bolt Beak + Fissure set is one of the most oppressive sets in the format who often forces the opponent to dodge multiple OHKO moves to actually deal with it, Coma is exceptional when it has proper support, other sets like WG and Stag are also great in the right teams and overall Eleki is still confidently good enough to be this high.
:Regieleki: Eleki is absurd, outside of Emax I feel confident in saying Eleki is the hardest to build around mon in the entire format and has the most versitility in its sets. The standard NGas Bolt Beak + Fissure set is one of the most oppressive sets in the format who often forces the opponent to dodge multiple OHKO moves to actually deal with it, Coma is exceptional when it has proper support, other sets like WG and Stag are also great in the right teams and overall Eleki is still confidently good enough to be this high.
A+ Tier
:Zacian-Crowned: Zacian Crowned
:Giratina: Giratina
:Spiritomb: Spiritomb
:Zacian-Crowned: Zacian is the best mon ever when it gets the chance to play in its element. The problem is the long list of things which expressly stop Zacian from doing what it wants. Cramorant, Sub EMax, Regieleki etc can all be a massive pain for Zacian to deal with and while you can deal with most of these mons depending on set, the options that beat these mons can often eat into general applicability. All that said, Zacian is still amazing. The exceptional combo of speed, power, bulk and typing is unmatched and Zacian is one of the most threatening Pokemon to build around and to face in general.
:Giratina: After this many Pokemon who are truly disgusting in what makes them good, it's refreshing that Gira's reasoning for being good is just that it's the most splashable and reliable Normal OHKO blocker. Don't mistake me it does more than that but that's the gist of why Gira is so high up. With its exceptional stats and pretty good typing overall Gira doesn't really have much wrong with it. Ghost typing is amazing though, even outside of the Normal OHKO immunity it also means STAB Spectral and trapping immunity and being able to use Ghost type Curse which means Gira isn't helpless into Sub Emax like many other support mons. Good mon!!!
:Spiritomb: The main alternative option for a Ghost and a fantastic alternative at that. Dark typing is very important, while Stored Power sweepers aren't super common anymore, if you don't pay attention to them in building they do get very scary so Spiritomb is great for that. Outside of that, Spectral neutrality and slow pivoting whenever that's relevant leave Tomb as a great alternative to Gira for most sets. That said, those sets alone aren't enough to bring Tomb into this tier, the reason Tomb is up here is the WG set proving itself as fantastic overall. Being so amazing into basically any non NGas mons is a big deal and Core Enforcer lets it also maintain a strong presence into NGas mons not to mention how most of what defines its other sets still applies against NGas mons when using WG Tomb. Overall at its worst WG Tomb is a good set which provides the ever important Normal OHKO immunity, but at its best Tomb can completely define a matchup if the opponent is running fewer NGas mons or as the NGas mons are eliminated.
:Giratina: After this many Pokemon who are truly disgusting in what makes them good, it's refreshing that Gira's reasoning for being good is just that it's the most splashable and reliable Normal OHKO blocker. Don't mistake me it does more than that but that's the gist of why Gira is so high up. With its exceptional stats and pretty good typing overall Gira doesn't really have much wrong with it. Ghost typing is amazing though, even outside of the Normal OHKO immunity it also means STAB Spectral and trapping immunity and being able to use Ghost type Curse which means Gira isn't helpless into Sub Emax like many other support mons. Good mon!!!
:Spiritomb: The main alternative option for a Ghost and a fantastic alternative at that. Dark typing is very important, while Stored Power sweepers aren't super common anymore, if you don't pay attention to them in building they do get very scary so Spiritomb is great for that. Outside of that, Spectral neutrality and slow pivoting whenever that's relevant leave Tomb as a great alternative to Gira for most sets. That said, those sets alone aren't enough to bring Tomb into this tier, the reason Tomb is up here is the WG set proving itself as fantastic overall. Being so amazing into basically any non NGas mons is a big deal and Core Enforcer lets it also maintain a strong presence into NGas mons not to mention how most of what defines its other sets still applies against NGas mons when using WG Tomb. Overall at its worst WG Tomb is a good set which provides the ever important Normal OHKO immunity, but at its best Tomb can completely define a matchup if the opponent is running fewer NGas mons or as the NGas mons are eliminated.
A Tier
:Landorus-Therian: Landorus Therian
:Yveltal: Yveltal
:Landorus-Therian: Being the best check to most Eleki sets alone makes Lando good but fortunately it does much more than that. TArrows + Fissure is a very scary combo especially when as strong as Landorus, the Rocks neutrality gives Lando a lot of longevity and it's the most physically bulky viable Flying type (other than like Skarm but who cares.) It can also run other sets like PBlades + Plasma Fists which are pretty good in themselves. It's got issues and sometimes struggles to justify itself over the other Flying types but overall it's a great mon and earns this high tiering.
:Yveltal: Most teams should be running a Dark type because of sweepers, and Yveltal is the 2nd best for that and better at actually stopping sweepers because of the Power Trip matchup. It's also just good as a whole, STAB Knock Off + Normal OHKO is pretty scary, its generally really bulky and yeah it consistently justifies itself. I don't have much to say on Yveltal it's a good mon that's all.
:Yveltal: Most teams should be running a Dark type because of sweepers, and Yveltal is the 2nd best for that and better at actually stopping sweepers because of the Power Trip matchup. It's also just good as a whole, STAB Knock Off + Normal OHKO is pretty scary, its generally really bulky and yeah it consistently justifies itself. I don't have much to say on Yveltal it's a good mon that's all.
A- Tier
:Eiscue: Eiscue
:Eiscue: Ice Face is an amazing ability, allowing Eiscue to tank any Physical move (most notably the physical OHKO moves) 1 time and refreshing with Hail. This combined with a rare Sheer Cold immunity allow it to be one of the best Pokemon for scouting out opposing sets and forces a lot of very awkward plays for many common sets to deal with it which Eiscue is great at exploiting with 30% accurate Sheer Cold and whatever other utilities it may be running. While all of this is truly great, Ice Face does have a major flaw. That flaw being that it's not Neutralizing Gas. This means Eiscue gets very annoyed by common sets like Magic Bounce and Wonder Guard without much of a silver lining. There are other Pokemon with similar issues, but some of the bigger examples justify themselves much easier than Eiscue often. for example, Magic Bounce is almost mandatory on many teams due to fear of Comaphaze; and Cram's Gulp Missile is one of the most defining aspects of the format. To contrast those, Ice Face is a great ability, it is great but not as necessary as the others. Either way Eiscue is a very unique force who can be a massive nuisance to any team and who can do well as a safety net and generally strong force on many teams.
B+ Tier
:Calyrex-Shadow: Calyrex Shadow
:Kyurem-Black: Kyurem-Black
:Regigigas: Regigigas
:Calyrex-Shadow: Calyrex is weird. The most "standard" set of like Smash / Stored Power / Psystrike / [filler] is not bad but very unreliable and if that were all I ranked Caly on it'd be much lower. That said, Caly has a lot of variety in what sets it can run and while none of these sets are exceptional, they come together to make Caly a fairly relevant force. Sets like SubPass, Fast Utility, Normalize, Comaphaze, STag and alternative Sweeper sets (eg Moonblast + OHKO) are all viable, but none are super defining. Caly is a real jack of all trades kind of mon, I struggle to pick a real stand out set but with it being a real consideration in so many roles I think it earns this placement.
:Kyurem-Black: Kyurem is the overall best sweeper in the format. It is the hardest one to deal with defensively, has the most initial power of any sweepers, both is immune to Sheer Cold and can run it with 30% accuracy on many sets and it has a lot of variety in how you can use it. All that said, being a Sweeper in this format comes with a lot of complications which Kyurem cannot escape. it's vulnerable to the common Spectral Thief, has a lot of trouble with Eternamax in spite of strong STAB and is terrified of Zacian who's Scarf set outspeeds even a +2 Kyurem and who can pretty consistently come in and threaten almost any sets unless running coverage specifically for it and Cramorant is a massive annoyance for many sets.
All of what I said was largely reffering to what I believe is the best way to run Kyurem, with either Neutralizing Gas or Comatose, but the Wonder Guard set should also be noted. This set is mediocre, it can often get into situations where it kind of just autowins more often than other sets but it loses a lot of flexibility in what it can do, loses to opposing Wonder Guards, and maintains a lot of the same issues the other sets have. It's great when it gets a chance to do what it wants, but it requires way more support than other sets and is much more predictable and exploitable.
:Regigigas: A very close 2nd place for best sweeper. The Spectral Thief immunity and good bulk / speed allow Regigigas to have one of the easiest times getting a chance to setup often times even getting multiple Shell Smashes off. That said, the sheer lack of utility it provides is annoying and its bad matchup into Yveltal and EMax depending on set do hold Regigigas back. Outside of sweeping, Regigigas can do other things like a priority attacker set most notably or sometimes SubPass which do add to Gigas' viability, but it's mostly a sweeper.
:Kyurem-Black: Kyurem is the overall best sweeper in the format. It is the hardest one to deal with defensively, has the most initial power of any sweepers, both is immune to Sheer Cold and can run it with 30% accuracy on many sets and it has a lot of variety in how you can use it. All that said, being a Sweeper in this format comes with a lot of complications which Kyurem cannot escape. it's vulnerable to the common Spectral Thief, has a lot of trouble with Eternamax in spite of strong STAB and is terrified of Zacian who's Scarf set outspeeds even a +2 Kyurem and who can pretty consistently come in and threaten almost any sets unless running coverage specifically for it and Cramorant is a massive annoyance for many sets.
All of what I said was largely reffering to what I believe is the best way to run Kyurem, with either Neutralizing Gas or Comatose, but the Wonder Guard set should also be noted. This set is mediocre, it can often get into situations where it kind of just autowins more often than other sets but it loses a lot of flexibility in what it can do, loses to opposing Wonder Guards, and maintains a lot of the same issues the other sets have. It's great when it gets a chance to do what it wants, but it requires way more support than other sets and is much more predictable and exploitable.
:Regigigas: A very close 2nd place for best sweeper. The Spectral Thief immunity and good bulk / speed allow Regigigas to have one of the easiest times getting a chance to setup often times even getting multiple Shell Smashes off. That said, the sheer lack of utility it provides is annoying and its bad matchup into Yveltal and EMax depending on set do hold Regigigas back. Outside of sweeping, Regigigas can do other things like a priority attacker set most notably or sometimes SubPass which do add to Gigas' viability, but it's mostly a sweeper.
B Tier
:Drifblim: Drifblim
:Rayquaza: Rayquaza
:Articuno: Articuno
:Zapdos: Zapdos
:Giratina-Origin: Giratina Origin
:Drifblim: Drifblim's fantastic typing giving it an immunity to both physical OHKO moves and Rapid Spin which is amazing and makes Drifblim one of the best Pokemon for scouting sets and the best wall for some sets like Spin + Fissure EMax. That said, Drifblim's stats are horrible with it taking ~70% from many of the most common Spectral Thieves and being very uncomfortable taking even neutral hits alongside any attacking moves it wishes to use (mostly Spectral) being very weak and it being pretty slow.
:Rayquaza: Ray is a pretty great sweeper. Its Fissure immunity and decent bulk provide more plentiful setup opportunities than any other common sweeper and it's very threatening after setting up. While Ray really struggles to go mixed in these sets since the Physical Dragon moves are really just too bad to be consistent options, by running an OHKO move instead of a Physical Dragon move it can maintain a strong tool the threaten the SpDef EMax it can so often force in. Outside of Sweeping, Ray can also be run for ComaPhaze, with it notably having a much stronger Dynamax Cannon than Eleki or other competition alongside good offenses in general to make use of with Copycat.
:Articuno: Defensive Ice types are pretty lacking overall and Articuno's Fissure immunity and generally good bulk make it one of the best for such a role. Sheer Cold is relatively uncommon but it is a very relevant part of the format to be careful of so having a consistent wall for users of it really is great. Most teams may go for Eiscue to get such a role but the fact Articuno doesn't need to run Hail, can run Bounce / NGas and can more consistently switch into Fissures makes it easy to justify over Eiscue on some teams.
:Zapdos: Zapdos functions as a Zacian check notably checking Bolt Beak variants who also comfortably eliminates Cramorant and can take on Regieleki from full hp. Alongside those main traits, STAB Electric + Fissure is a pretty great combo which helps Zapdos do well in a lot of matchups. That said, it has a bad Landorus matchup and it can sometimes be a struggle to justify over Cramorant who usually fills the need for a Zacian check perfectly well.
:Giratina-Origin: The other Gira here is able to cross a few nice ranges with its higher offenses, most notably in that Expert Belt boosted Precipice Blades OHKOs Regieleki. It can fulfill the role of being a bulky attacker pretty well and while its Eternamax matchup is kinda bad, it's good into a lot of other support mons which can be very nice for a lot of teams. That said, compared to Altered Giratina the drop in bulk is very annoying for its role and while this niche as a bulky attacker is nice, it can struggle to justify itself.
:Rayquaza: Ray is a pretty great sweeper. Its Fissure immunity and decent bulk provide more plentiful setup opportunities than any other common sweeper and it's very threatening after setting up. While Ray really struggles to go mixed in these sets since the Physical Dragon moves are really just too bad to be consistent options, by running an OHKO move instead of a Physical Dragon move it can maintain a strong tool the threaten the SpDef EMax it can so often force in. Outside of Sweeping, Ray can also be run for ComaPhaze, with it notably having a much stronger Dynamax Cannon than Eleki or other competition alongside good offenses in general to make use of with Copycat.
:Articuno: Defensive Ice types are pretty lacking overall and Articuno's Fissure immunity and generally good bulk make it one of the best for such a role. Sheer Cold is relatively uncommon but it is a very relevant part of the format to be careful of so having a consistent wall for users of it really is great. Most teams may go for Eiscue to get such a role but the fact Articuno doesn't need to run Hail, can run Bounce / NGas and can more consistently switch into Fissures makes it easy to justify over Eiscue on some teams.
:Zapdos: Zapdos functions as a Zacian check notably checking Bolt Beak variants who also comfortably eliminates Cramorant and can take on Regieleki from full hp. Alongside those main traits, STAB Electric + Fissure is a pretty great combo which helps Zapdos do well in a lot of matchups. That said, it has a bad Landorus matchup and it can sometimes be a struggle to justify over Cramorant who usually fills the need for a Zacian check perfectly well.
:Giratina-Origin: The other Gira here is able to cross a few nice ranges with its higher offenses, most notably in that Expert Belt boosted Precipice Blades OHKOs Regieleki. It can fulfill the role of being a bulky attacker pretty well and while its Eternamax matchup is kinda bad, it's good into a lot of other support mons which can be very nice for a lot of teams. That said, compared to Altered Giratina the drop in bulk is very annoying for its role and while this niche as a bulky attacker is nice, it can struggle to justify itself.
(This is ranked alphabetically within tiers from here)
B- Tier
:Darmanitan-Galar-Zen: Galarian Zen Darmanitan
:Indeedee: Indeedee
:Urshifu: Urshifu
:Darmanitan-Galar-Zen: Being the only Ice type to cross above the elusive 130 Speed tier gives GZDarm a lot of room to do a lot of things. Its main set in my eyes is a Substitute NGas attacker similar to Regieleki, running a set similar to Sub / Sheer Cold / Glacial Lance / Filler. You could also run a Sweeper set with Glacial Lance + Sheer Cold or a ComaPhaze set with a strong Freeze Shock. All these sets are pretty decent and the Sheer Cold immunity is great but being almost locked into running Boots and bad matchups into most Pokemon faster than it are hold it back a lot.
:Indeedee: Indeedee is Generally the best user of Mono-Psychic Sweeper sets due to its Spectral Thief immunity, but with its low stats and being walled by Dark types it struggles to be near the same level as the sweepers ranked above.
:Urshifu: Urshifu is notable as the best check in the format to Power Trip Sweepers (Regigigas and Obstagoon) while ofc still checking Psychic Sweepers. Compared to Yveltal though, it sacrifices a lot of general applicability without the Flying typing. In most matchups it will serve you worse than Yveltal, but it can still be a real threat with strong STAB Knock Off even there so while it is sacrificing utility it won't often have matchups where it does nothing, raising it from the C tier.
:Indeedee: Indeedee is Generally the best user of Mono-Psychic Sweeper sets due to its Spectral Thief immunity, but with its low stats and being walled by Dark types it struggles to be near the same level as the sweepers ranked above.
:Urshifu: Urshifu is notable as the best check in the format to Power Trip Sweepers (Regigigas and Obstagoon) while ofc still checking Psychic Sweepers. Compared to Yveltal though, it sacrifices a lot of general applicability without the Flying typing. In most matchups it will serve you worse than Yveltal, but it can still be a real threat with strong STAB Knock Off even there so while it is sacrificing utility it won't often have matchups where it does nothing, raising it from the C tier.
C Tier
:Aegislash: Aegislash
:Celesteela: Celesteela
:Crobat: Crobat
:Dragapult: Dragapult
:Froslass: Froslass
:Grimmsnarl: Grimmsnarl
:Ho-Oh: Ho-Oh
:Mimikyu: Mimikyu
:Necrozma-Dawn-Wings: Necrozma Dawn Wings
:Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: Necrozma Dusk Mane
:Skarmory: Skarmory
:Zamazenta-Crowned: Zamazenta Crowned
:Zarude: Zarude
:Zeraora: Zeraora
:Aegislash: Notable as the best check in the format to a lot of Zacian sets since most Zacian run a Normal OHKO. But it struggles a lot with general applicability, needs Night Shade to consistently check Sub Zacian and even against Zacian it's vulnerable to the very common Precipice Blades.
:Celesteela: + :Skarmory: These 2 are notable as Flying Zacian checks who are neutral to Stealth Rocks. Comparing the 2 of them: Skarmory has higher Physical bulk making it somewhat more consistent at its job, but Celesteela has higher Special bulk and significantly higher offenses letting it check a lot of Zacian more consistently via attacking moves.
:Crobat: Crobat is notable as a Flying type who speed ties EMax and can run / tank Trick + Black Sludge. Its poor stats hold it back but this lets it be a major annoyance to sets like Spin / Fissure / Trick EMax and being the 2nd fastest Flying type in general is useful
:Dragapult: An alternative to certain Calyrex sets like SubPass, Fast Utility or Normalize who notably takes Spectral Thief much better but is largely worse otherwise.
:Froslass: Being immune to Sheer Cold and Normal OHKO is great and Froslass can even run Air Balloon to be immune to all 3 OHKOs which is fun, but with its truly awful bulk and only "ok" speed it struggles a lot to be consistent in any regard.
:Grimmsnarl: An alt to Urshifu, being one of the best Power Trip checks, who also has STAB Fairy which is pretty great to have. This comes at a major cost of bulk though which keeps it lower.
:Ho-Oh: Ho-Oh works as a Zacian check with STAB V-Create and Burn immunity. These are cool but it doesn't really have much more going for it and struggles into most of the format.
:Mimikyu: Disguise sets are fun, giving it a 1 time immunity to any Attack which can be nice. The Ghost typing also helps it to have at least some general utility and STAB Fairy + Dragon immunity are nice. It can also run Wonder Guard as a Spiritomb alt but it's mostly worse even if not being Fairy weak is nice sometimes. These things are nice but Mimikyu does just have awful stats and while Disguise is nice it's not like as good as the other viable exclusive abilities.
:Necrozma-Dawn-Wings: Slower but bulkier sweeper Caly, it can notably take a lot of neutral hits and some Spectral Thieves. The lower speed sucks though dropping it all the way down here
:Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: NDM is notable as both a check to Psychic sweepers (which includes Moonblast sets) and a check to Dragon / Ice sweepers who can also check Zacian which is overall pretty great, but with no OHKO immunities, poor speed and underwhelming offensive pressure it struggles to ever be worth putting onto a team.
:Zamazenta-Crowned: Zama is a Zacian check who outspeeds neutral nature EMax and can be Trick immune. The lack of OHKO immunities huts general applicability a lot though. It can also run a Comatose + Focus Punch set which should be noted.
:Zarude: Zarude is a Mono-Psychic / PTrip check who has a very valuable Spore immunity (and resists Electric.) Its lack of OHKO immunities and poor bulk are pretty terrible though.
:Zeraora: This one is an alt to Regieleki who does sacrifice speed but is a little stronger and can notably tank a lot of moves that Eleki can't like Landorus TArrows and Zacian PBlades. The speed tier drop does suck though and so it falls all the way here.
:Celesteela: + :Skarmory: These 2 are notable as Flying Zacian checks who are neutral to Stealth Rocks. Comparing the 2 of them: Skarmory has higher Physical bulk making it somewhat more consistent at its job, but Celesteela has higher Special bulk and significantly higher offenses letting it check a lot of Zacian more consistently via attacking moves.
:Crobat: Crobat is notable as a Flying type who speed ties EMax and can run / tank Trick + Black Sludge. Its poor stats hold it back but this lets it be a major annoyance to sets like Spin / Fissure / Trick EMax and being the 2nd fastest Flying type in general is useful
:Dragapult: An alternative to certain Calyrex sets like SubPass, Fast Utility or Normalize who notably takes Spectral Thief much better but is largely worse otherwise.
:Froslass: Being immune to Sheer Cold and Normal OHKO is great and Froslass can even run Air Balloon to be immune to all 3 OHKOs which is fun, but with its truly awful bulk and only "ok" speed it struggles a lot to be consistent in any regard.
:Grimmsnarl: An alt to Urshifu, being one of the best Power Trip checks, who also has STAB Fairy which is pretty great to have. This comes at a major cost of bulk though which keeps it lower.
:Ho-Oh: Ho-Oh works as a Zacian check with STAB V-Create and Burn immunity. These are cool but it doesn't really have much more going for it and struggles into most of the format.
:Mimikyu: Disguise sets are fun, giving it a 1 time immunity to any Attack which can be nice. The Ghost typing also helps it to have at least some general utility and STAB Fairy + Dragon immunity are nice. It can also run Wonder Guard as a Spiritomb alt but it's mostly worse even if not being Fairy weak is nice sometimes. These things are nice but Mimikyu does just have awful stats and while Disguise is nice it's not like as good as the other viable exclusive abilities.
:Necrozma-Dawn-Wings: Slower but bulkier sweeper Caly, it can notably take a lot of neutral hits and some Spectral Thieves. The lower speed sucks though dropping it all the way down here
:Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: NDM is notable as both a check to Psychic sweepers (which includes Moonblast sets) and a check to Dragon / Ice sweepers who can also check Zacian which is overall pretty great, but with no OHKO immunities, poor speed and underwhelming offensive pressure it struggles to ever be worth putting onto a team.
:Zamazenta-Crowned: Zama is a Zacian check who outspeeds neutral nature EMax and can be Trick immune. The lack of OHKO immunities huts general applicability a lot though. It can also run a Comatose + Focus Punch set which should be noted.
:Zarude: Zarude is a Mono-Psychic / PTrip check who has a very valuable Spore immunity (and resists Electric.) Its lack of OHKO immunities and poor bulk are pretty terrible though.
:Zeraora: This one is an alt to Regieleki who does sacrifice speed but is a little stronger and can notably tank a lot of moves that Eleki can't like Landorus TArrows and Zacian PBlades. The speed tier drop does suck though and so it falls all the way here.
D Tier
:Ditto: Ditto
:Doublade: Doublade
:Drapion: Drapion
:Gourgeist-Super: Gourgeist Super
:Landorus: Landorus
:Mewtwo: Mewtwo
:Ninjask: Ninjask
:Obstagoon: Obstagoon
:Reshiram: Reshiram
:Solgaleo: Solgaleo
:Ditto: Ditto is notable as a fast SubPass who's Spectral immune. But its stats are awful and it doesn't have much utility.
:Doublade: An alt to Aegislash who has higher Physical bulk and a usable Attack stat but is reliant on Eviolite which really sucks.
:Drapion: A Mono-Psychic / PTrip sweeper check who can stomach taking Moonblast and can use / tank Black Sludge + Trick. Pretty bad otherwise though.
:Gourgeist-Super: Spore Immune Ghost type is great! Gourgeist has nothing else going for it.
:Landorus: An alt to Lando T but not an easy one to justify, the lower attack makes neutral nature TArrows a range to OHKO Eleki which makes it a lot less reliable and the lower bulk is bad too. Higher Special Attack and Speed are nice though so it earns at least a D tiering.
:Mewtwo: Mewtwo is a Mono-Psychic sweeper who still has good speed but can take Spectral from time to time unlike Caly. Much worse otherwise, being weaker and slower and the lack of a Normal OHKO / Spin immunity all being very bad.
:Ninjask: The 2nd fastest Pokemon in the format and it's a Flying type. There is little more to say, it's the only Flying type to outspeed a +Spe EMax which is nice.
:Obstagoon: An alt to sweeper Regigigas who checks Mono-Psychic Sweepers at the cost of being worse at everything else; with less bulk and less speed (cannot outspeed Scarf Zacian at +2.)
:reshiram: Reshiram is a Dragon sweeper with STAB Lava Plume to hit Zacian. It also resists Steel which is nice but that's about it. It loses a lot of general applicability / utility compared to Rayquaza and Kyurem without OHKO immunities.
:Solgaleo: An alt to NDM who is bulkier and faster but has lower attack, potentially better than NDM but I'm unsure on what to think on that.
:Doublade: An alt to Aegislash who has higher Physical bulk and a usable Attack stat but is reliant on Eviolite which really sucks.
:Drapion: A Mono-Psychic / PTrip sweeper check who can stomach taking Moonblast and can use / tank Black Sludge + Trick. Pretty bad otherwise though.
:Gourgeist-Super: Spore Immune Ghost type is great! Gourgeist has nothing else going for it.
:Landorus: An alt to Lando T but not an easy one to justify, the lower attack makes neutral nature TArrows a range to OHKO Eleki which makes it a lot less reliable and the lower bulk is bad too. Higher Special Attack and Speed are nice though so it earns at least a D tiering.
:Mewtwo: Mewtwo is a Mono-Psychic sweeper who still has good speed but can take Spectral from time to time unlike Caly. Much worse otherwise, being weaker and slower and the lack of a Normal OHKO / Spin immunity all being very bad.
:Ninjask: The 2nd fastest Pokemon in the format and it's a Flying type. There is little more to say, it's the only Flying type to outspeed a +Spe EMax which is nice.
:Obstagoon: An alt to sweeper Regigigas who checks Mono-Psychic Sweepers at the cost of being worse at everything else; with less bulk and less speed (cannot outspeed Scarf Zacian at +2.)
:reshiram: Reshiram is a Dragon sweeper with STAB Lava Plume to hit Zacian. It also resists Steel which is nice but that's about it. It loses a lot of general applicability / utility compared to Rayquaza and Kyurem without OHKO immunities.
:Solgaleo: An alt to NDM who is bulkier and faster but has lower attack, potentially better than NDM but I'm unsure on what to think on that.
Eternamax: :Eternatus-Eternamax:
S: :Cramorant-Gorging: :Regieleki:
A+: :Zacian-Crowned: :Giratina: :Spiritomb:
A: :Landorus-Therian: :Yveltal:
A-: :Eiscue:
B+: :Calyrex-Shadow: :Kyurem-Black: :Regigigas:
B: :Drifblim: :Rayquaza: :Articuno: :Zapdos: :Giratina-Origin:
(Unordered Within Tiers Under Here)
B-: :Darmanitan-Galar-zen: :Indeedee: :Urshifu:
C: :Aegislash: :Celesteela: :Crobat: :Dragapult: :Froslass: :Grimmsnarl: :Ho-Oh: :Mimikyu: :Necrozma-Dawn-Wings: :Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: :Skarmory: :Zamazenta-Crowned: :Zarude: :Zeraora:
D: :Ditto: :Doublade: :Drapion: :Gourgeist-Super: :Landorus: :Mewtwo: :Ninjask: :Obstagoon: :Reshiram: :Solgaleo:
S: :Cramorant-Gorging: :Regieleki:
A+: :Zacian-Crowned: :Giratina: :Spiritomb:
A: :Landorus-Therian: :Yveltal:
A-: :Eiscue:
B+: :Calyrex-Shadow: :Kyurem-Black: :Regigigas:
B: :Drifblim: :Rayquaza: :Articuno: :Zapdos: :Giratina-Origin:
(Unordered Within Tiers Under Here)
B-: :Darmanitan-Galar-zen: :Indeedee: :Urshifu:
C: :Aegislash: :Celesteela: :Crobat: :Dragapult: :Froslass: :Grimmsnarl: :Ho-Oh: :Mimikyu: :Necrozma-Dawn-Wings: :Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: :Skarmory: :Zamazenta-Crowned: :Zarude: :Zeraora:
D: :Ditto: :Doublade: :Drapion: :Gourgeist-Super: :Landorus: :Mewtwo: :Ninjask: :Obstagoon: :Reshiram: :Solgaleo:
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Also, I'm taking over GSC PH until someone else comes along or whatever
Council (Open to join)
:Snorlax: Tragic Fantasy (Leader)
Viability Rankings
Pokémon are ordered by strength throughout all ranks. The links contain sample sets and short descriptions, though there's lots of set diversity in GSC. Some samples even use sets not shown in these links.
S Rank
S
:mewtwo: Mewtwo
:lugia: Lugia
:aerodactyl: Aerodactyl
A Rank
A+
:electrode: Electrode
:snorlax: Snorlax
A
:ho-oh: Ho-Oh
:tyranitar: Tyranitar
:steelix: Steelix
B Rank
B+
:skarmory: Skarmory
:raikou: Raikou
:suicune: Suicune
:gengar: Gengar
:jolteon: Jolteon
B
:magneton: Magneton
:scizor: Scizor
:celebi: Celebi
:Donphan: Donphan
:rhydon: Rhydon
C Rank
:misdreavus:Misdreavus
:blissey: Blissey
:marowak: Marowak
:jynx: Jynx
:quagsire: Quagsire
Sample Teams: (Feel free to submit some)
Icy Wind Ho-Oh Offense by adriancosmoem
:electrode::mewtwo::mewtwo::aerodactyl::snorlax::ho-oh:
Updated Triple Boom Offense by adriancosmoem
:electrode::mewtwo::mewtwo::mewtwo::aerodactyl::raikou:
Updated Bdrum Aero Balance by adriancosmoem and GhastlyPixie
:mewtwo::aerodactyl::mewtwo::suicune::lugia::snorlax:
Perish trap Celebi Balance by GhastlyPixie
:electrode::celebi::mewtwo::aerodactyl::ho-oh::lugia:
Dual Bdrum Aero Offense by Tragic Fantasy
:electrode: :Mewtwo: :Aerodactyl: :Aerodactyl: :Ho-Oh: :Snorlax:
GSC Pure Hackmons
Council (Open to join)
:Snorlax: Tragic Fantasy (Leader)
Viability Rankings
Pokémon are ordered by strength throughout all ranks. The links contain sample sets and short descriptions, though there's lots of set diversity in GSC. Some samples even use sets not shown in these links.
S Rank
S
:mewtwo: Mewtwo
:lugia: Lugia
:aerodactyl: Aerodactyl
A Rank
A+
:electrode: Electrode
:snorlax: Snorlax
A
:ho-oh: Ho-Oh
:tyranitar: Tyranitar
:steelix: Steelix
B Rank
B+
:skarmory: Skarmory
:raikou: Raikou
:suicune: Suicune
:gengar: Gengar
:jolteon: Jolteon
B
:magneton: Magneton
:scizor: Scizor
:celebi: Celebi
:Donphan: Donphan
:rhydon: Rhydon
C Rank
:misdreavus:Misdreavus
:blissey: Blissey
:marowak: Marowak
:jynx: Jynx
:quagsire: Quagsire
Sample Teams: (Feel free to submit some)
Icy Wind Ho-Oh Offense by adriancosmoem
:electrode::mewtwo::mewtwo::aerodactyl::snorlax::ho-oh:
Updated Triple Boom Offense by adriancosmoem
:electrode::mewtwo::mewtwo::mewtwo::aerodactyl::raikou:
Updated Bdrum Aero Balance by adriancosmoem and GhastlyPixie
:mewtwo::aerodactyl::mewtwo::suicune::lugia::snorlax:
Perish trap Celebi Balance by GhastlyPixie
:electrode::celebi::mewtwo::aerodactyl::ho-oh::lugia:
Dual Bdrum Aero Offense by Tragic Fantasy
:electrode: :Mewtwo: :Aerodactyl: :Aerodactyl: :Ho-Oh: :Snorlax:
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How are these two achieved though, is it through modifying the game's code or just save state editing
who are the breakers in sm ph (the one without photon and moldy cfzs)
i fear i do not have long. first they came mamo stall (and it got wiped from history, not even in the legacy samples), then they came for my council roles, and i think they are coming for me next.. i will always be sm council in everyone's hearts tho, so i thought what better way to spend my final moments than to provide some guidance to my successors. see, every time i used to bring up sun and moon pure hackmons, people would always talk about some "oh it's a stall meta, how am i supposed to break without photon and my cfzs?" my successor, wyrd, also asked me for a paste of sets that can break, so here is a post showing exactly how you can break teams. innards still exists tho so hahahahahhahahahhahahahahahahahhahahahahahhahhahahaha
mixed guys
:sm/mewtwo-mega-y:
Mewtwo-Mega-Y @ Focus Sash
Ability: Protean
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Shell Smash
- Sunsteel Strike
- Moongeist Beam
- Moonblast / Freeze Dry / Plasma Fists
:sm/mewtwo-mega-y:
Mewtwo-Mega-Y @ Focus Sash
Ability: Protean
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Shell Smash
- Sunsteel Strike
- Moongeist Beam
- Moonblast / Freeze Dry / Plasma Fists
sunsteel geist fairy still exists and is still broken. protean mmy is the best abuser of it really bc of its damage output and speed tier. for most teams, the defensive counterplay is limited to trying to pivot around it with wgs who most of the time barely don't get 2hkod, also keeping in mind that it has multiple set up opportunitys against most teams, and shell smash being a normal move even provides a spectral immunity. the actual walls for this mon are limited to really random prankster guys like prank evio chansey, (prank) ho-oh, (prank) pogre, and prank registeel, and is anyone actually going to use them? also, prot mmy can run plasma fists if it wants to, with the only downside being zygarde. there is also another very similar coverage combo below that mmy probably could run, and it would solve the steel problem.
:sm/groudon-primal: :sm/mewtwo-mega-y:
Groudon-Primal @ Life Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Naughty Nature
- Shell Smash
- Sunsteel Strike
- Mind Blown
- Freeze-Dry / Volt Tackle
Mewtwo-Mega-Y @ Focus Sash
Ability: Protean
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Shell Smash
- Sunsteel Strike
- Blue Flare
- Freeze-Dry
sunsteel fire freeze dry is very similar to sunsteel geist fairy, with the main drawback being steels that aren't weak to fire (just wg dialga and heatran) and ho-oh, but you are more immediately threatening against other steels (and you don't get walled by random registeel). you also can't use innards on the pdon set provided, which is stupid. maybe you could run stag water shuriken to beat it? ofc it could run shed shell, but then sunsteel calcs become less favourable. protean mmy with the same coverage would aim to solve those issues, and it's better into arceus, but you miss out on magic guard. i think these sets would be really potent anyways. i forgot to mention that volt tackle is an option on pdon for a better pogre and ho-oh mu, but now zyg walls you.Groudon-Primal @ Life Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Naughty Nature
- Shell Smash
- Sunsteel Strike
- Mind Blown
- Freeze-Dry / Volt Tackle
Mewtwo-Mega-Y @ Focus Sash
Ability: Protean
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Shell Smash
- Sunsteel Strike
- Blue Flare
- Freeze-Dry
kart
:sm/kartana:
Kartana @ Focus Sash
Ability: Huge Power
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Shell Smash
- Sunsteel Strike
- Coverage
- Coverage / Spore
while kart did lose its big nuke button that kills literally everyone other than heatran (who dies after rocks chip anyways), it's still kart. you could just coverage fish with it, with the stuff you want to hit being waters (mpert, mbro, mgyara i guess), fires (just pdon, ho-oh doesn't have enough bulk and is 4x weak to rocks anyways), steels (some don't have the ground, fighting, or fire weakness), and zyg. of course, coverage can hit multiple of those and it's not like a mon needs to beat everything in one set (tho innards makes things harder), but i would like to say to kart is absolutely more limited here. teams don't need to account for photon now, opening up room for more kart walls on teams, and sunsteel walls which are bad into mmx (like pdon and mpert) are also better. also, losing sss makes fur coats more problematic, and kart wanting sash so much doesn't help that situation as power boosting items are often needed for rolls into fur coats. no sss also means you do basically need ice for zyg, and ice does literally nothing else other than beat it. i haven't talked about spore tho. of course, i can't talk about goggles usage in a tier that has been played so little, and people had varying opinions in usum about whether goggles or shed shell was preferable. my take tho is that fishing for no goggles is probably reasonable, and you still have an extra slot for coverage anyways. spore also provides value outside of just breaking fat. i can also tell you that pairing a stag mon with spore kart sounds very potent. the idea there is obviously trap the goggles mons with stag and spore the shed shell guys to death, and the only reliable counterplay i can really think of to that would be prank sunsteel walls or magic bounce sunsteel walls (the former can run gogfles and escape stag with prio pshot or baton, the latter can escape stag with shed shell and block spore with magic bounce).
choice locked breakers
:sm/groudon-primal: :sm/kartana:
Groudon-Primal @ Choice Band
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- V-create
- Precipice Blades
- Ice Hammer
- Something
Kartana @ Choice Band
Ability: Huge Power
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Sunsteel Strike
- Petal Blizzard
- Storm Throw / Thousand Arrows
- V-create
there's probably more examples, but both of these guys literally don't have walls outside of random ssap stuff (and psea bs depending on sets). the problem is that they're choice locked, which i do think is fine in the fat mu, but these sets are literally terrible outside of breaking fat. they also lose to shadow tag, so i wouldn't really recommend them, but i thought i'd show them anyways to prove the point.
no guard
no guard beats everything other than wg, tho it is true that all fat teams are gonna have 2 wgs. even still, you can run wgs that hopefully beat the wgs aiming to wall them, and i would like to show you some bc i believe they would be quite potent in sm.:sm/kartana:
Kartana @ Focus Sash
Ability: Huge Power
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Shell Smash
- Sunsteel Strike
- Coverage
- Coverage / Spore
while kart did lose its big nuke button that kills literally everyone other than heatran (who dies after rocks chip anyways), it's still kart. you could just coverage fish with it, with the stuff you want to hit being waters (mpert, mbro, mgyara i guess), fires (just pdon, ho-oh doesn't have enough bulk and is 4x weak to rocks anyways), steels (some don't have the ground, fighting, or fire weakness), and zyg. of course, coverage can hit multiple of those and it's not like a mon needs to beat everything in one set (tho innards makes things harder), but i would like to say to kart is absolutely more limited here. teams don't need to account for photon now, opening up room for more kart walls on teams, and sunsteel walls which are bad into mmx (like pdon and mpert) are also better. also, losing sss makes fur coats more problematic, and kart wanting sash so much doesn't help that situation as power boosting items are often needed for rolls into fur coats. no sss also means you do basically need ice for zyg, and ice does literally nothing else other than beat it. i haven't talked about spore tho. of course, i can't talk about goggles usage in a tier that has been played so little, and people had varying opinions in usum about whether goggles or shed shell was preferable. my take tho is that fishing for no goggles is probably reasonable, and you still have an extra slot for coverage anyways. spore also provides value outside of just breaking fat. i can also tell you that pairing a stag mon with spore kart sounds very potent. the idea there is obviously trap the goggles mons with stag and spore the shed shell guys to death, and the only reliable counterplay i can really think of to that would be prank sunsteel walls or magic bounce sunsteel walls (the former can run gogfles and escape stag with prio pshot or baton, the latter can escape stag with shed shell and block spore with magic bounce).
choice locked breakers
:sm/groudon-primal: :sm/kartana:
Groudon-Primal @ Choice Band
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- V-create
- Precipice Blades
- Ice Hammer
- Something
Kartana @ Choice Band
Ability: Huge Power
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Sunsteel Strike
- Petal Blizzard
- Storm Throw / Thousand Arrows
- V-create
there's probably more examples, but both of these guys literally don't have walls outside of random ssap stuff (and psea bs depending on sets). the problem is that they're choice locked, which i do think is fine in the fat mu, but these sets are literally terrible outside of breaking fat. they also lose to shadow tag, so i wouldn't really recommend them, but i thought i'd show them anyways to prove the point.
no guard
:sm/kartana:
Kartana @ Focus Sash
Ability: No Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Shell Smash
- Sunsteel Strike
- Power Whip / Bolt Strike / V-Create
- Fissure
ng kart is kinda held back in usum for reasons that would apply less so to sm, but anyways the point of this post is for me to showcase that breaking is definitely possible, and i think this mon is a potent breaker. the only walls to it are sunsteel resist wgs (something fat teams will most likely aleays have, but still), and these mons have to hope you lack coverage for them. with bolt strike, your walls are scizor, ferrothorn, and mpert. with power whip, the walls are ho-oh (rocks victim), scizor, celesteela, and ferro. and with vc, your walls are ho-oh (rocks victim), mbro, mgyara, and mpert. that's quite a limited selection of walls, and a set doesn't need to break literally everything like i mentioned earlier, tho innards does make life harder. ng kart can also lure non wg kart walls that would like to wall huge power, but you're not as good at this as in usum bc the big nuke that lures in prank sunsteel resists doesn't exist.
:sm/gengar-mega:
Gengar-Mega @ Focus Sash
Ability: No Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shell Smash
- Moongeist Beam
- Sludge Wave / Secret Sword / Bug Buzz / Zap Cannon
- Fissure
it's a similar idea to the kart, except your answers are instead limited to the special wall wgs. it may also be better in sm bc darks are less desirable due to photon being gone. the walls are like maud, meloetta, arceus, mgyara and other darks, yveltal, ho-oh (rocks victim i will keep saying), and pogre. i do think that it's more limited than kart for a few reasons. beyond just more mons you want coverage for and the mons you miss also being more viable on average, there also exists a flying type (so a wall that isn't a wg) who exists (yveltal) that you wouldn't like to run coverage for at all, and maud also exists which you need poison for and all poison does is beat maud. ng mgar is also like the most potent coverage fish mgar for breaking bc fissure itself is basically like a super coverage move, which should also explain why i haven't really talked about mgar much in this post. pbond is also obviously less viable than in usum given that it's a fatter meta. but even still, i can't deny that mgar (and this set) is something to prep for and is definitely a threat.Kartana @ Focus Sash
Ability: No Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Shell Smash
- Sunsteel Strike
- Power Whip / Bolt Strike / V-Create
- Fissure
ng kart is kinda held back in usum for reasons that would apply less so to sm, but anyways the point of this post is for me to showcase that breaking is definitely possible, and i think this mon is a potent breaker. the only walls to it are sunsteel resist wgs (something fat teams will most likely aleays have, but still), and these mons have to hope you lack coverage for them. with bolt strike, your walls are scizor, ferrothorn, and mpert. with power whip, the walls are ho-oh (rocks victim), scizor, celesteela, and ferro. and with vc, your walls are ho-oh (rocks victim), mbro, mgyara, and mpert. that's quite a limited selection of walls, and a set doesn't need to break literally everything like i mentioned earlier, tho innards does make life harder. ng kart can also lure non wg kart walls that would like to wall huge power, but you're not as good at this as in usum bc the big nuke that lures in prank sunsteel resists doesn't exist.
:sm/gengar-mega:
Gengar-Mega @ Focus Sash
Ability: No Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shell Smash
- Moongeist Beam
- Sludge Wave / Secret Sword / Bug Buzz / Zap Cannon
- Fissure
:sm/mewtwo-mega-y:
Mewtwo-Mega-Y @ Focus Sash
Ability: No Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Entrainment
- Zap Cannon
- Inferno
- Fissure
this is more proof of concept, and it may not even be this exact set, but it's something i would like to talk about. as we know, teams run 2 wgs to deal with gastro acid (entrainment is technically better, but i will say gastro for the sake of it being shorter, and they do the same thing), but what i realised is that this means that both wgs need to wall the ng's moves outside of gastro otherwise the ng can break. so, here is zapferno mmy with gastro. its walls that would actually be used are limited to maud, melo, arc, and mpert (mpert is a lot better tho bc no photon), and 2 of them need to be present to stop this mmy from being able to break. i will say that the actual process of breaking does kinda come down to mindgames, mmy needs to gastro the wgs that are immune to its moves on switch in and even if you do gastro them there is then the question of whether it clicks a coverage move or fissure, but breaking with it should be entirely feasible nonetheless. you could probably do other coverage moves if you wanted and the mon could change, but you have the idea anyways.Mewtwo-Mega-Y @ Focus Sash
Ability: No Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Entrainment
- Zap Cannon
- Inferno
- Fissure
another extension of the idea is gastro ng kart. the idea is that you need a sunsteel resist wg to wall it, except you can just gastro them, and are teams really going to run 2 sunsteel resist wgs? idk how well this would work in practice but there's the idea. you probably improof with like celesteela.
huge power guys i haven't talked about
i won't go as in depth here bc there's no way it isn't obvious, but sets like hp pdon and hp slak still exist and will obviously be good. again. all of what i said about why smash hp kart is more limited here that isn't exclusive to kart itself (spore and anything i said about sss) carries over to smash hp pdon and slak. i suppose i can talk about the 4 attack huge power sets tho. in usum, these were always mmx if they weren't scarf. in sm, i guess you could try make 4a pdon or kart work? unlike usum, you can't really run prio and be great at breaking at the same time here i would say, and losing mmx's speed tier also hurts. i would be lying if i said that these weren't still potent breakers, and obviously teams would prep for huge power sunsteel in general, but i'll also add losing to stag (not having shell smash or shed shell) is bad, yet you want power boosting items for fur coat.
arc + tspikes support
:sm/arceus:
Arceus @ Fist Plate
Ability: Wonder Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Taunt
- Shell Smash
- Moongeist Beam
- Judgment
:sm/gengar-mega:
Gengar-Mega @ Focus Sash / Black Sludge
Ability: No Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fissure
- Zap Cannon / Moongeist Beam
- Taunt / Trick
- Toxic Spikes
this should also be quite potent, but i'm too tired to keep yapping atp. i think i'll just edit the post to do this write up later. protean mmy with 4 attacks was also one i wanted to mention.
hopefully this gives sm a better reputation than "the stall meta". hard stall is also worse and semistall is better for other reasons, which i have probably said in the dc before. i honestly don't really feel like playing ph anymore and given how things have been i do really feel like just quitting. obviously you can't trust me tho bc i must have tried to quit like 6 or 7 times atp, so i'm not gonna sit here and say that i will quit, but this is how i feel. good luck youngins (sm council) and thank you for reading, bye bye.
sm council being Wyrd aidan amoongus Tragic Fantasy
hi PenultimateToast
:sm/arceus:
Arceus @ Fist Plate
Ability: Wonder Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Taunt
- Shell Smash
- Moongeist Beam
- Judgment
:sm/gengar-mega:
Gengar-Mega @ Focus Sash / Black Sludge
Ability: No Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fissure
- Zap Cannon / Moongeist Beam
- Taunt / Trick
- Toxic Spikes
this should also be quite potent, but i'm too tired to keep yapping atp. i think i'll just edit the post to do this write up later. protean mmy with 4 attacks was also one i wanted to mention.
hopefully this gives sm a better reputation than "the stall meta". hard stall is also worse and semistall is better for other reasons, which i have probably said in the dc before. i honestly don't really feel like playing ph anymore and given how things have been i do really feel like just quitting. obviously you can't trust me tho bc i must have tried to quit like 6 or 7 times atp, so i'm not gonna sit here and say that i will quit, but this is how i feel. good luck youngins (sm council) and thank you for reading, bye bye.
sm council being Wyrd aidan amoongus Tragic Fantasy
hi PenultimateToast
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the no guard gengar with smash says thunderbolt. zap cannon is better
i think
Im not a youngin smh
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