All Gens Old Gen Hackmons Megathread

Ransei

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Art by Blazenix
Welcome to the Old Generations of Hackmons Megathread. If you are looking into discussing what Hackmons were prior to the current generation, this would be the right place! Hackmons, otherwise known as Pure Hackmons is a metagame where all existing Pokémon can use any move and any ability as long as it can be used in local matches against other players. In addition, many Pokémon are able to start off each game in alternative forms without having to transform and only Generation VI holds an EV limit. This is not Balanced Hackmons. The only clause in Pure Hackmons is the Endless Battle Clause. For the sources of old gen Balanced Hackmons and other OMs, check out the Old Gens Other Metas Megathread. For resources and information of the current generation, check out the Gen 8 Pure Hackmons thread. Despite this thread being used to potentially act as a resource more than anything, feel free to use this thread for asking any question regarding the old gen Pure Hackmons metagames or to make suggestions regarding this megathread.

Rules:
1)
All forum rules still apply. Make sure you read and follow them.

2)
Don't post a set without any specific explanation of what it does. Your post will be deleted otherwise. If you are going to post about a specific set, it is greatly advised that you post with great detail of what exactly your set does, how it affects specific Pokémon, and why. You can't just simply say Wonder Guard Burn Up Arcanine is the best because it cannot faint when the case is far from true and you lack sufficient evidence.

3) Be civil and on topic when posting on this thread.

General FAQ:
Q
: Where are these metagames playable?
A: Right now they are only playable through Custom Game or tournaments in the Old Shark and Ruins of Alph rooms.

Q: Is this Classic Hackmons?
A: No. Classic Hackmons was a variation of Pure Hackmons created in Generation 5 without the use of team preview and exclusively without an EV limit in Generation 6. It was a variation created to drift away from the usual in-game mechanics and as a result, will not be supported.

Q: Is this Custom Game?
A: No. Custom Game is based on what the Pokémon Showdown teambuilder is capable of, while Pure Hackmons is based around what is hackable in game and usable in local battles. Specifically, in Pure Hackmons you are limited to a maximum level of 100, a maximum of 4 moves, a maximum of 6 Pokemon, and Showdown specific moves and abilities such as Paleo Wave and Rebound are unusable, while in Custom Game there is a max level of 9999, the maximum number of moves is 24, the maximum number of Pokemon is 24, and Showdown specific moves and abilities are usable.

Q: Why is there an Endless Battle Clause in every generation?
A: Endless Battle Clause exists in every Showdown metagame to prevent battles taking too long and lagging the server. This acts similar to the in-game timer system, but more loose, meaning battles can extend further with Endless Battle Clause than it could with in-game timer.

Q: What if I want to discuss older generations of a metagame that allows me to run anything without hacking?
A: That metagame is known as Anything Goes. You can discuss the older generations of it in the AG Old Gens Megathread.

General Resources:
Hopes and Dreams (An RMT telling the story of Hackmons and its variants)
Introduction to Pure Hackmons Article (For Gen 7)
Old Shark Encyclopedia (An encyclopedia with lots of general info regarding Hackmons)


Directory:
Old Shark (A hidden subroom for Old Gen Hackmons)
Pure Hackmons Discord

Hall of Fame:
Ransei - December 2019
Alexgrizz - January 2020
 
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Ransei

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Metagames:

Leader: Ransei

Council:
Ransei

Resources:
Thread(s):

Gen 7 OM Mashups Megathread

Sample Sets:
None yet.

Sample Teams:

Double MMX Balance by NOC Unlucky 13

Tribute to Trambo Offense by Disciple_1

Dual MMX Shed Shell Offense by Disciple_1

Pdon Balance by manu 11

Psychic Terrain Offense by manu 11

Poison Spam Balance by manu 11

Bad Dreams MMY Offense by manu 11

PH Tour Champion Samples:

Innards Out + No Guard Psyspam by cscl

Innards Out + No Guard Balance by cscl

Leppa WG + Magic Guard Balance by cscl

Dual Deo HO by cscl

Sablenite Stall by cscl

RMT:

Cats and Rabbits Balance by Ransei

Other Resources:
Viability Rankings
Introduction Guide

FAQ:
Q:
Can I use Crystal Free Z moves (CFZs) in my movesets?
A: Yes! But keep in mind that CFZs with variable base power (all of the one's associated with a type e.g. Bloom Doom) will have a base power of 1. Moves like Clangorous Soulblaze and Genesis Supernova have their full base power however.

Leader: Ransei

Council:
Ransei

Resources:
Thread(s):

ORAS Hackmons Threatlist

Sample Sets:
None yet.

Sample Teams:

Desertlovania Offense by Ransei


New Legacy Balance by Ransei

Special:


Hopes and Dreams - An RMT by Ransei

FAQ:
Q:
Why is there an EV limit?
A: In Generation 6, it's impossible to play in local matches with other players if the total amount of EVs on one of your Pokémon is above 510, regardless of whether it's legal or not.

Council:
Ransei

Resources:
Thread(s):

Pure Hackmons (Gen V)

Sample Sets:
None yet.

Sample Teams:

Hazard Stack Balance by Funbot28


Zapdos Sand by Ransei

Leader: Tmi489

Council:
Tmi489
Ransei

Resources:
Sample Sets:

None yet.

Sample Teams:

Spikestack Balance by Tmi489


Sun Offense by Tmi489


Rain Balance by Tmi489

Leader: supreeee

Council:
supreeee
Ransei

Resources:
Sample Sets:

None yet.

Sample Teams:

Dual Kabutops Rain by supreeee

Other Resources:

Dual Kabutops Rain Guide
Viability Rankings

FAQ:
Q:
Why are Pokémon restricted to their legal abilities?
A: It is impossible to modify a Pokémon's ability in Generation 3 due to it being attached to their PID.
 
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Lutra

Spreadsheeter by day, Random Ladderer by night.
is a Community Leaderis a Community Contributor
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In Gen 1 Hackmons Anything Goes, something like 2 Electrode + 4 Chansey, or 3 Electrode + 3 Chansey would probably be better. Electrode is 4HKOed and Chansey 8HKOed, that equals 36/40HKOed in total by Seismic Toss/Night Shade. Seismic Toss is 32PP , so that could force Seismic Toss & Night Shade on the optimal set. Spore has only 24 PP, which will go down to 23 PP if you win the 50:50. The opponent can then switch to a Chansey, take damage, and either let that get slept or switch back to Electrode to use up another PP. I'm guessing the opponent that lost the 50:50 would want a Chansey slept at some point to be safer from correct damaging predictions, since Electrode can't take much damage before being KOed, and Chansey has much more time to wake up anyway, which burns more spore PP. The scary thing for the opponent is the turns they have to switch in with the un-slept Pokémon, risking being slept and their PP wasting strategy moving closer to ruin. The player with the advantage can also just take a gamble and switch in another Electrode when the opponent's mon is sleeping, at worst resulting in another 50:50.
 
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https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen4customgame-903381926
Can't really say I've had much experience with Gen 4 PH but I have a couple of notes and anti-meta (or rather anti-sample team) sets that I came up with.
- Imprison is an unexplored game. It'd prevent Spores, opposing Sheer Colds, Magic Coat, etc.
- Trapping hasn't been used. Arena Trap is the superior ability because there are almost no fliers.
- Speed Boost pretty much stops all Deo-S shenanigans, assuming both players just don't run Speed Boost Deo-S. Still, it neuters no guard.\
- No Guard Deo-S is overall bad due to too many counters and WG users but still is potent.
Gengar @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Pure Power
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Shadow Claw
- Trick / Pursuit
- Explosion
- Sleep Talk

Using physical Gengar is extremely taboo, espsecially in the land of way stronger monsters. However, it provides role compression as both a T-Spikes remover and a Deo-S check. It is the only poison type able to remove TSpikes AND outspeed Deo-S with a +1 boost. Shadow Claw gets the job done, having a high chance finishing Deo-S after a layer of spikes.
252 Atk Pure Power Gengar Shadow Claw vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Deoxys-Speed: 248-294 (81.5 - 96.7%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes
It also prevents Latios from sweeping without setting up Agility. Trick prevents any sort of walls, most notably Spirtomb, from coming in without serious punishment. Explosion can be used once Gengar's purposes are mostly finished or to finish off a Mold Breaker. Sleep Talk also allows Gengar to be a sleep lure, and with 2-3 attacks it'll probably kill at least one Deo-S. Finally Pursuit is another option to trap Latios and Deo-S, enough to make them fear switching out.
252 Atk Pure Power Gengar Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Deoxys-Speed: 190-224 (62.5 - 73.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Pure Power Gengar Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Latios: 204-240 (56 - 65.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Blissey (F) @ Lum Berry / Shed Shell
Ability: Arena Trap
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Careful Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Perish Song
- Protect
- Soft-Boiled
- Aromatherapy / Toxic / Rapid Spin / Stealth Rock / Magic Coat / Haze

I used Shadow Tag in the replay because I didn't realize that Arena Trap was better. Blissey can come in on almost anything, set up Perish Song, and watch as non-U-Turners die. A Careful Nature allows Blissey to live against very threatening wallbreaker Latios, even at +2.
+2 252 SpA Soul Dew Latios Spacial Rend vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey: 286-337 (40 - 47.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Lum Berry makes Spore a wasted turn. Shed Shell prevents Blissey from being trapped itself and dying to Perish Song. Protect and Softboiled are made to abuse Perish Song or Toxic. If Toxic Spikes are up, Blissey becomes a cleaner and wall at the same time. One last utility move can be placed depending on what the team needs. Might also be the only viable spinner, since it keeps special attackers (who don't do much) in.

EDIT: new games against a safeguard team
*http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen4customgame-903413395
*http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen4customgame-903429964
 
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Gen 1 PH Meta:
(assuming status pre-match won't be implemented)
While Sleep Mechanics makes it seem like Spore Spam is the only thing that matters... actually that is the only thing that matters. There's still more strategy than it seems, entirely in the team builder. Every game will come down to a 50/50 speed tie between two Electrode's Spore: sleep mechanics mean that slower Pokemon can be sleeped over and over as they won't move after waking up. This lets set up happen. After one Electrode sets up Spore, then boosts, it can use the following moves:
Electrode
- Spore
- Agility
- Super Fang / Seismic Toss
- Seismic Toss
Each Seismic Toss can 8KO Chansey (703 HP). With 64 total PP from Seismic Tosses, it will end every possible team in Gen1 (even Gengar! uneffected by immunities) if Seismic doesn't miss and if healing is denied. Super Fang does much more damage on the first/second move on Chansey. If not wanting to predict, move duplication is legal and Seismic Toss is used for higher PP over Night Shade. It is rather slow at killing and prone to being stalled, but will always work.

Checks:
- 3-4 Chansey: While any team is taken out with 2 Seismic Toss slots, Electrode is forced to keep on using Spore, lest Chansey spore Electrode. Electrode is forced to predict whenever to Spore or attack every time it faces against a healthy Chansey, and if it mispredicts once when attacking or Spores too many times then the sweep is ended.
Electrode
- Spore
- Double Team
- Super Fang / Seismic Toss / Agility
- Seismic Toss
Similar to Agility but with Double Team instead. The opponent will generally expect an Agility/Spore after the speed tie, so switching in to their Electrode is risky. Then, at least 2 Double Teams can be set up. Then the speed tie along with lowered chances of hitting makes it exponentially harder to end the sweep. After getting Evasion then 2 Seismic Tosses end the game. You can also Spore a switch in - PP isn't much of an issue. Minimize doesn't give +2 Evasion yet and has less PP. Any other set up move can be used with their checks in play.
Agility + Double Team lures out other Electrodes, and if all of them are asleep then another Pokemon can sweep. Reliant on prediction.
Checks:
- 3-4 Chansey + Haze: Still forces you to Spore like the Agility set.
- Dual/Triple Electrode: If Double Team fails to "Protect" against a Spore speed tie, then you can just set up again.
Electrode
- Spore
- Swords Dance
- Agility
- Mega Punch / Earthquake / Rock Slide
Much faster at killing, and is (mostly) unstopped by Chanspam teams. Rock Slide hits an average of 3KO (with 1-2 Crits) with Chansey. Instead of Rock Slide, Hyper Fang/Mega Punch has more PP but has to be scared of the super rare Gengar. Earthquake 2KOs with 1 Crit. Crits deal less damage than +6 because Gen1 Crits ignore ALL status changes.

Checks - Rock Slide:
- 2 Rhydon: Rock Slide 6KOs, but in order to do this Rock Slide can't crit with a 33% chance per attack. 2 Rhydons more often than not will prevent Electrode from winning. Then, its a mindgame for when Electrode will switch out.
Checks - Earthquake:
- Articuno/Birds: Just wins due to immunity. Articuno prefered since its the most bulky.
Note that Amnesia is outclassed by Seismic Toss generally for also being walled by Chansey Spam. Is slightly quicker but deals much less overall damage to Chanspam. OHKO moves are too ineffective as 2 of them only takes out 4 'Mons.

There are then different teams to check these 4 sets. Every team should lead with one of the 4 Electrode variants. This leads to a total of 24 real viable teams, slightly better than just one.
Chanspam: Counters Seismic Toss, and the following.
- 2 Electrode, 4 Chansey | Double Team
- Electrode, 2 Rhydon, 3 Chansey | Swords Dance-Rock
- Electrode, 4 Chansey, Articuno | Swords Dance-EQ

Rhydon Spam: Counters Swords Dance-Rock, and the following.
- 2 Electrode, 3 Rhydon, Articuno | Swords Dance-EQ, Double Team
- 2 Electrode, 2 Rhydon, 2 Chansey | Agility/Seismic (Barely), Double Team
- Electrode, 2 Rhydon, 3 Chansey | Agility/Seismic (also counts as Chanspam)
(Articuno can be replaced by Dragonite, but they share the same role so aren't 'real' seperate teams)

Other Pokemon Imports, In Order of Viability:
Chansey
- Spore
- Haze
- Agility
- Seismic Toss

Chansey
- Spore
- Amnesia
- Agility
- Ice Beam
Chansey has the most HP of every Pokemon by a huge margin, enabling it to stall Seismic Toss. 8KO'd by Seismic Toss meaning less harsh prediction. Haze still forces Double Team Electrode to Spore constantly. Amensia allows Chansey to turn the game around after 2 Agilities and sweep itself.
Articuno
- Spore
- Amnesia
- Agility
- Ice Beam

Dragonite
- Spore
- Swords Dance
- Agility
- Rock Slide
If the Electrode is using SD+Earthquake, they win by giving a free Spore. Otherwise, they lose. They are similar enough to each other but Articuno can handle Chansey Sweep better while Dragonite is physical. Articuno can use Clamp and Dragonite can use Earthquake or Wrap.
Rhydon
- Spore
- Swords Dance
- Agility
- Rock Slide
6KO'd by resisted +6 Rock Slide. However, Rock Slide crits with a 33% chance from Electrode, and criticals do less damage at +6 since stat boots are ignored. Also accounting for misses, and 2 Rhydon are enough to stall out SD+Rock Slide Electrode. Note that it needs to use Agility twice to outspeed opposing Electrodes. Can use SD to sweep after 2 Agilites.
probably gengar for normals but SD isn't all that good and super fang hasn't been realized
 
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Ransei

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is Quick Attack snorlax or smth viable?
Belly Drum Extreme Speed Snorlax could potentially reign as successful in Generation 2 Hackmons specifically. After Generation 2 it starts becoming outclassed by Pokemon such as Slaking and Regigigas, leaving it unable to be used as competitively.
 
Belly Drum Extreme Speed Snorlax could potentially reign as successful in Generation 2 Hackmons specifically. After Generation 2 it starts becoming outclassed by Pokemon such as Slaking and Regigigas, leaving it unable to be used as competitively.
i more meant for gen 1 as a counter to electrode, as it lets you get a strongish hit off on trode before spore.
 
i more meant for gen 1 as a counter to electrode, as it lets you get a strongish hit off on trode before spore.
Its only a 5KO on turn, when Electrode 6KOs with Seismic. If your trying to wake up to use QA again, then that's turns not wasting Spore PP. That's the problem (along with a potential next Electrode). 5 Snorlax are only good for mono electrode teams and if the opponent doesn't predict switchouts.
 
Okay so I'm new to the concept of hackmons, but I'm pretty sure I remember someone mentioning years back that in RBY (maybe other gens? Idk) you can enter link battles with prestatused Pokemon and they actually stay statused for the match. And I think the community decided that that was too fucked up to make legal in standard play. But considering that hackmons is supposed to be total no-holds-barred bullshit...? Idk just sayin!
 

Ransei

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It took some digging into the hearts of gold and souls of silver to find this set out, and now it's being brought into the light of this world!
Introducing to you from Generation 4 Hackmons is...

Huge Power Deoxys-Attack!

Deoxys-Attack @ Focus Sash
Ability: Huge Power / Pure Power
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Fire Fang
- Extreme Speed
- Dragon Claw / Leaf Blade / Drain Punch

Due to Huge Power and Pure Power having the same effect of doubling the user's Attack, only Huge Power will be referenced in its description.
This is the current usual Deoxys-Attack set in Gen 4 Hackmons. To start off, it'd be good to point out how Deoxys-Attack is the best user of this set due to having the highest attacking stats and the third highest speed of any Pokemon in Gen 4. With that, Deoxys-Attack often loves to use Swords Dance since after factoring Huge Power, it would give the Pokemon a total of 1377 and potentially 1836 Attack. After two Swords Dance, it holds an opportunity to OHKO the entire relevant portion of Gen 4's Hackmons meta, including Wondertomb, Wonder Guard Palkia, any Giratina forme, any Lugia, and any Blissey. Believe it or not, Mold Breaker moves aren't exclusive to the newer generation. In Generation 4, Fire Fang runs through a glitch which allows it to go through Wonder Guard. This makes Fire Fang a primary reason for Deoxys-Attack's prevalence. After using Swords Dance twice it ensures an OHKO against the notorious Wondertomb (almost guaranteed after 1 Swords Dance). Just dealing with this Pokemon using 1 move is mostly what Fire Fang is used for. Outside of Fire Fang, it runs Extreme Speed, which with a combination of 150 base speed, Huge Power, 180 base Attack, and Swords Dance, enables itself to outspeed and OHKO perhaps any common wallbreaker or sweeper in the metagame that doesn't resist or isn't immune. Examples of these would be Latios, Rayquaza, Mewtwo, Infernape, non Wonder Guard Palkia, and Deoxys-Speed. For Pokemon that resist either of the two previously mentioned attacks, you have a variety of coverage options! Dragon Claw KOs Wonder Guard Palkia, who quad resists Fire Fang and becomes immune to Extreme Speed. It also helps with Giratina switchins, as on many teams, Giratina, with its large defenses and Ghost/Dragon typing, may seem like the best switchin against Deoxys-Attack if it doesn't have Dragon Claw. Leaf Blade deals with any potential Rock-types and Wonder Guard Water-types in this metagame. Rock-types such as Omastar, Rhyperior and Tyranitar could be used for the sake of having an Extreme Speed or Fire Fang wall. Bulky Wonder Guard Water-types such as Suicune and Swampert could also make this Pokemon look pitiful in the metagame if Deoxys-Speed runs nothing against them. Drain Punch holds the same purpose as Leaf Blade, but excluding Water-types in return for recovery. If Deoxys-Attack is unable to use Focus Sash due to hazards, Drain Punch is a suitable coverage move to ensure it has a chance of maximizing its HP again. Rock-type Pokemon can be baited into being swapped in against Deoxys-Attack but Normal-types like Blissey or Arceus can suffice if they stay in.

What makes this particular set amazing is the unique ability it has as a high Atk Huge Power Pokemon to break through almost any sweeper while also breaking through Wonder Guard Spiritomb without having to sacrifice a second moveslot or worse ability. In summary: Fire Fang takes care of the most common Wonder Guards that don't resist, Extreme Speed outspeeds and KOs non Ghost-type sweepers, and for the Pokemon that are able to take on both moves comes a surprise from coverage options. It's not a perfect Pokemon, as it still has its walls varied by coverage, but it's qualities allow this set to perform as a high quality sweeper in Gen 4 Hackmons.

Here is a replay: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen4ubers-900777031
Honestly should've saved more. If you have any tips or suggestions about this set or this description, bring them up!
 
In Generations 3-5, weather from abilities was permanent. Because of the sheer (non) power of Fire Fang, Drought is stronger than ever in Gen 4. Under Chlorophyll and a 1.5* damage boost, Sun Sweepers easily make up the one slot needed for Drought.

Featuring, the Deoxys Eater.
Groudon @ Lum Berry / Focus Sash
Ability: Chlorophyll
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Fire Fang
- Bonemerang
- Spore / Pursuit / Synthesis / Coverage

Outspeeds and Spores/Sets Up/Threatens Deoxys without needing Speed Boost (and 1-2 moveslots).
Groudon outspeeds anything unboosted with a Chlorophyll boost. Its speed and bulk combined allows it to set up Swords Dances and Spores against almost anything. Without Prankster/Impostor, the opponent either needs a dedicated Chlorophyll/weather of their own. Or, a Sleep Talk Wonder Guard phazer that resists Fire Fang - and even then, it'll take a huge hit with the 3* boost after 1 Swords Dance.
Groudon still has a role in the team while resistant Water Guarders are still up - "eating" Deoxys. Bonemerang is what makes really makes it an offense killer - it bypasses the sash that Deo-A and Speed use to guarantee a trade. Unfortunately, Groudon needs to be at +2 attack to KO Deo-S - but you can just Spore. Pursuit prevents Deo-A from simply switching. Alternatives include Huge Power Dragon Dance bluffing Chlorophyll and whatever coverage move (Dragon Claw, Leaf Blade) you need to take out a certain Water Guarder.
Sun is easily splashable, even without a dedicated sweeper. For example, see this calc:
252 Atk Life Orb Huge Power Deoxys-Attack Fire Fang vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Spiritomb in Sun: 240-283 (78.9 - 93%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Just be careful of how the opponent can retaliate against your own Wonder core. That's where Chlorophyll users come in. Dedicated sweepers also need a little help in order to get rid of Water Guarders, either from Mold Breaker Pursuit + Hazards or from Shadow Tag.

Replays: (me trying to perfect the Sun team)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen4customgame-903985956
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen4customgame-907010311
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen4customgame-912224707
Deoxys-Attack @ Focus Sash
Ability: Huge Power / Pure Power
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Fire Fang
- Extreme Speed
- Dragon Claw
Would personally include Life Orb for the Sun KO, and because Fake Out is only +1 priority this generation the only way Deoxys-A doesn't get a strong hit off an opponent is if they ESpeed first (or Ghosts using priority).
After using Swords Dance twice it ensures an OHKO against the notorious Wondertomb (almost guaranteed after 1 Swords Dance).
(just say it ohkos after rocks are up, since spinning is rather hard)
 
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regirock

heat niner
is a Community Contributor
I've been playing a bunch of Gen 4 Hackmons recently with TMI Ransei and Funbot. Here are a few teams that I've been using: I've come to really like rain, so 2/3 of these teams revolve around that.

*all WG items can be switched around, it's mostly personal preference

Mewtwo @ Focus Sash
Ability: Shadow Tag
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 30 HP / 0 Atk
- Psychic
- Aura Sphere
- Tail Glow
- Earth Power

Deoxys-Speed @ Focus Sash
Ability: Shadow Tag
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 30 HP / 0 Atk
- Encore
- Toxic Spikes
- Stealth Rock
- Perish Song

Gyarados @ Lum Berry / Shed Shell
Ability: Wonder Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
IVs: 30 HP
- Rapid Spin
- Roost
- Earthquake
- Spikes

Spiritomb @ Lum Berry
Ability: Wonder Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 30 HP / 0 Spe
- Heal Order
- Curse
- Stealth Rock
- U-turn

Palkia @ Leftovers / Haban Berry / Lum Berry
Ability: Wonder Guard
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Careful Nature
- Rapid Spin
- Gastro Acid
- Fire Fang
- Recover

Deoxys-Attack @ Focus Sash
Ability: Huge Power
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Fire Fang
- Extreme Speed
- Swords Dance
- Dragon Claw
The weakest out of the three teams, relies on trapping the opponent's wonder guards with the two shadow tag mons and cleaning up with deo-a. Try to keep the opponent's hazards out and block their spins with your own WGs.

Tentacruel (M) @ Shed Shell
Ability: Drizzle
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 232 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Impish Nature
- Toxic Spikes
- Protect
- U-turn
- Roost

Registeel @ Shuca Berry / Chople Berry / Occa Berry / etc etc etc
Ability: Shadow Tag
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Perish Song
- U-turn
- Imprison
- Recover

Latios @ Soul Dew
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Surf
- Thunder
- Dragon Pulse
- Agility

Spiritomb @ Lum Berry
Ability: Wonder Guard
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Heal Order
- Curse
- Stealth Rock
- U-turn

Scizor @ Occa Berry / Lum Berry / Leftovers
Ability: Wonder Guard
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Milk Drink
- U-turn
- Spikes
- Rapid Spin

Lugia @ Shed Shell
Ability: Wonder Guard
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Gastro Acid
- Heal Order
- Baton Pass
- Rapid Spin
Fun team I built recently, rain pairs nicely with surf dew latios and reduces fire fang damage on the rest of the team. Tenta has a cool poison typing which allows it to clear toxic spikes, letting other mons come in status-free, and the bulky stag registeel lets you trap threats that latios might not be able to easily break. (I stole both of these sets from TMI after getting smashed by them)

Lugia @ Leftovers
Ability: Drizzle
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Roost
- Spikes
- Gastro Acid
- Rapid Spin

Rayquaza @ Lum Berry
Ability: Shadow Tag
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Hydro Pump
- Extreme Speed
- Earthquake

Spiritomb @ Lum Berry
Ability: Wonder Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Heal Order
- Protect
- Stealth Rock
- U-turn

Regigigas @ Leftovers
Ability: Wonder Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
IVs: 30 HP / 0 SpA
- Fire Fang
- Milk Drink
- Spikes
- Facade

Deoxys-Attack @ Focus Sash
Ability: Huge Power
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Fire Fang
- Extreme Speed
- Swords Dance
- Drain Punch

Kyogre @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Mold Breaker
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Surf
- Ice Beam
- Thunder
- Giga Drain
Team I've had the most fun playing. Try to keep spikes up to pressure the opponent, trap mons with stag ray and clean up with deo-a and scarf kyogre.
 
Latios @ Soul Dew
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Surf
- Thunder
- Dragon Pulse
- Agility
While it may be rain, Surf doesn't really hit anything that Latios can't break (minus the rare Sand Regi/TTar). Would replace it with Aura Sphere / Earth Power, which hits those two and all the steel types.
Rayquaza @ Lum Berry
Ability: Shadow Tag
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Hydro Pump
- Extreme Speed
- Earthquake
Personally, Ray should be carrying Scarf to outspeed and K.O Palkia and Latios. Or Expert Belt / Life Orb to secure the KO on Latios.
Kyogre @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Mold Breaker
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Surf
- Ice Beam
- Thunder
- Giga Drain
Trick over Giga Drain. Giga Drain hits nothing except for Water/Ground (Swampert can't take Surf very well) and has only 60BP. Trick disables a wall and give move choice. Also potential for U-Turn when Kyorge forces a switch, or Doom Desire to hit WG for chip damage. Even Hydro Pump (like Keldeo in future gens) to 2KO Registeel.
Deoxys-Attack @ Focus Sash
Ability: Huge Power
Why use Fire Fang in Rain? Also wants Dragon Claw since that (3rd) team is weaker in breaking WG
EDIT:

Registeel @ Shuca Berry / Chople Berry / Occa Berry / etc etc etc
Ability: Shadow Tag
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
you want to run speed to outrun Spiritomb to trap it
 
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Gen 4 Preliminary VR with roles included, 'Cause why not. Sorted Alphabetically within subranks. Roles in approximate order of viability from left to right, though certain teams may need a 'bad' role anyways.

"S": The Most Influential 'Mons in PH (So Far)
While not being THE best in the tier, they all must be accounted for in team building.
  • 177074
    Deoxys-Speed
No Guard + OHKO moves let Deoxys-S tear through teams without at least 2 Wonder Guarders (or HO). Even then, Deoxys can spread sleep and rack up hazard damage as Gastro Acid forces switches.

How To Beat: Most teams carry at least 2 Wonder Guarders (or Sturdy!) so that Deoxys has to keep on sleeping and using Gastro Acid. Offensively, spamming Fake Out + Extreme Speed, or using Speed Boost makes Deoxys lose its speed advantage.
  • 177062
    177059
    Latias / Latios
Soul Dew makes the Lati Twins immensely powerful sweepers under the right conditions, and can break even without a boost. 1 Agility is enough to scare off a team without good priority / STAG. (Latios is trapped more easily and weaker against priority, but can OHKO common dragons like Palkia with Spacial Rend.)

How to Beat: The Lati Twins aren't very fast for offensive threats, so just preventing them from setting up with pressure is enough to stave them off. They can't switch in easily - they have low physical defense and U-Turn hurts a lot. STag is also plausible - both can't run Shed Shell without losing their viability. However many trappers need to run Scarf (ex. Ray). Once set up, priority moves are the only way to take em down (but they probably KO) .
  • 177079
    Spiritomb
Wondertomb is immune to every standard attack in the generations before the Fairy. Its great team support, potentially forcing out another WG with Curse or Level 2 shenanigans, and being the ultimate spinblocker. However, its a bit weak to any move that can hit it.

How to Beat: Spiritomb is not bulky for WG standards, so Fire Fang and Mold Breakers dent it rather easily. Entry Hazards and Status wear Spirtomb throughout the match. Though, prepare for Drizzle and opposing hazards wearing down your Mold Breaker too. It is slow and Taunt and/or Set Up bait, especially when forced to switch. Spirtomb not carrying Shed Shell also have a problem with Shadow Tag Perish Song.

"Physical" generally means Huge/Pure Power. "WG" can be Wonder Guard Pivot, Hazard Setter, Phazer, etc.

A+
  • 177069
    Arceus (WG, EKiller, Set Up, STag, No Guard, BP) [can disguise as any arc form]
  • 177063
    Ho-Oh (Magic Guard DDance, Spinner, Pivot)
  • 177062
    Latias (Dual Dance, Breaker/Spinner, Weather, DDance, Unaware, BP)
  • 177059
    Latios (Dual Dance, Breaker, Agility, STag, No Guard, Scarf)
A-
  • 177074
    Deoxys-Speed (No Guard, Cleaner, Phazer, BP)
  • 177065
    Giratina-Origin (Physical Sneak, Set Up, Spinner)
  • 177067
    Regigigas (WG EKiller, Physical, Spinner, Set Up, Pursuit)
  • 177068
    Slaking (WG EKiller, Physical, Spinner, Set Up, Pursuit)
B+
  • 177061
    Deoxys-Attack (Swords Dance+Attacks, All Out Physical, Pursuit)
  • 177073
    Gyarados (WG, Mold)
  • 177083
    Dialga (Anti-Dragon WG, Scarf WG)
  • 177060
    Palkia (WG, Scarf Mold, Pivot, Weather)
  • 177064
    Rayquaza (Scarf STag, Mixed Mold)
  • 177079
    Spiritomb (WG, Level 1, Pursuit)
B-
  • 177076
    Blissey (Special Wall, STag)
  • 189292
    Gengar (STag Immune to ESpeed)
  • 177071
    Giratina (WG Phazer, Sturdy Wall, Unaware, Weather, BP)
  • 177077
    Jirachi (Scarf, WG, LeviFire)
  • 177080
    Infernape (Drought, DDance, Fighting/Scrappy)
  • 177066
    Lugia (WG, Non-WG Pivot, Unaware, Weather)
  • 177075
    Mewtwo (Specs Mold, STag, No Guard)
  • 177072
    Registeel (WG, LeviFire, Bulky STag, Drizzle, BP)
  • 177078
    Suicune (WG, BP)
  • 177092
    Swampert (WG)
  • 177081
    Skarmory (WG, Flash Fire, Drizzle)
  • 177098
    Weavile (Ice Shard, Pursuit)
C+
  • 189903
    Blaziken (DDance)
  • 177082
    Drapion (WG Poison, Pursuit)
  • 189902
    Entei (DDance)
  • 177095
    Groudon (Phys Wall, Bonemarang + Set Up)
  • 177091
    Kyorge (WG)
  • 177087
    Heatran (PPower, WG, Drought)
  • 177084
    Metagross (Flash Fire)
  • 177088
    Regirock (Sand WG, Sand Stream, Phys Wall)
  • 177094
    Rhyperior (WG, PPower, Sand)
C-
  • 177093
    Probopass (Sand Stream, Pivot)
  • 177090
    Raikou (WG, Anti Water, BP)
  • 177085
    Scizor (Flash Fire, WG)
  • 177089
    Tyranitar (Sand, Pursuit)
  • 177086
    Venusaur (Drizzle Poison)
D (aka, I want to look into some of them more)
  • 178369
    Aerodactyl (Magic Guard. Spore)
  • 177097
    Arceus-Poison (Multitype Bulky Poison) [can disguise as any arc form]
  • 177099
    Darkrai (Sleep?, Mold)
  • 177228
    Garchomp (DDance, Scarf STag)
  • 178423
    Shaymin-Sky (Grass Type, STag)
  • 177173
    Skuntank (WG Poison, Pursuit)
  • 177096
    Shuckle (Weather Wars)

1.Whatever - Removed S and merged with A+ since both Latios and Palkia aren't as influential as it once was. Moved Regi and Slaking up, Suicune up, Deo-S up, all 1 tier. Ray down from A- to B-, Palk from S to B+. Gengar added to B-.
1.2 - Added Entei and Blaziken as less viable fire types who can more viably run Pure Power, moved Infernape up
1.3 Swampert moved up to B- like Suicune as a water weak to spikes, Kyogre moved down there too. Deo-S moved up to A-, while Deo-A moved down to B+.
1.4 Moved Aero, Rhyperior, Regirock to C+, Weavile to B-, Lugia down to B-
 
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https://pokepast.es/1885eb596ab31780
As someone who loves playing Gen 4 CG vs tmi and finding out he is a TL of gen 4 Pure Hackmons I had to play this LOL.

177166
Shadow Tag
The lead slot of the team. My goal of rayquaza was to trap pokemon like Skarmory, Jirachi, Gyarados,Latios,Palkia, and frail sweepers. (some of these pokemon may need chip. Thunderbolt beats skarmory to free ur ability to beat jirachi on this team. Shed shell skarm can be a pain but with proper predicts u can force a kill by predicting, which is low risk as skarm poses no huge threat. Thunderbolt also allows you to beat gyara. Thunder's power does notably always allow you to OHKO gyarados but has a high risk factor, as you would rather get small chip, than miss and be in a terrible position. Overheat beats common steels, and Draco is your strongest move. Spacial Rend is not strong enough. Outrage and Dragon Claw help vs the Latis, so they are options instead of Draco. Dragon Claw and Outrage can also be used along side Draco Meteor. Earthquake helps in rare situations and Stone Edge only helps really with Ho-oh. To specify rayquazas attack stat should be 31 252 and - spd id running a physical attack. If not running a physical attack(you should run one) its 0 ivs 0 -.
177182
NO GUARD
This mon is flames. This lure set if used right can easily claim kills in a BO1. Even when TMI knew my set it was still hard to deal with. Sleep move depends on how much of a lure you want it to be. All I really have to say!!!!
177183
Mold Breaker
Standard Latios with the coverage I need. Draco for power ice beam for great coverage. The reason im not runnign a move that gives more coverage is because ice beam gives the best coverage and my goal is not to click draco unless i need 2. This pokemon can power through without super effective hits. I have rayquaza to trap pokemon that can wall this, with its powerful over heats or other strong attacks. If you really want u could use spacial rend + Flamethrower, but imo its not the best in practice fromt he situations ive been in so far!!
177184
Wonder Guard
Part of my 2 mon wonderguard core as i always feel teams should have 2-3 and maybe 4 wonder guard pokemon. Having a slight advantage on this team for good speed better spd than slaking and better overall bulk than regigigas. This pokemon is able to toxic pokemon it can not touch as well as preform a cleric role. Combined with my STAG arceus it is able to high a sky high attack stat if needed.
177185
Shadow Tag
This pokemon is able to trap in weaker pokemon set up swords dance and baton pass. If ray is not able to kill something, arceus can come in and finish the job with ESPEED. vs faster pokemon it can baton pass into ray if it wants to trap them. Running no speed is an option as it provides great support for bping into ray for a stronger trap.
177186
Wonder Guard
Being a very bulky pokemon and a reliable spinner with a great type makes it a great choice. Without photon or moongeist existing this pokemon is able to wall most of the metagame. Haze more vs physical setup sweepers which is the majority, but alot unless mold breaker can not touch you. The others that run moves like dragon claw are a 2hko of surf anyways.

The version i currently use https://pokepast.es/802baf196c803faa

Replays
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen4customgame-917264599
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen4customgame-917270144
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen4customgame-917287508
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen4customgame-917291385
I wanted to post 1 loss to show the weaknesses and 3 wins. Jk ive only played 4 games but i still wanted to post this because it has been working well.

Edit: ill add replays http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen4customgame-917322722[/SPOILER
 

Attachments

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a bump with what SHOULD be the meta for gen 2 PH
mewtwo spam
mewtwo can easily run mixed + boom and destroy everything, and spores everything not named electrode (who can't do anything other than OHKO moves)
- everything should run mint/miracle berry in order to counter spore, since lefties dont get to do much
- you still better have a sleep talk user or two but mewtwo smashes mostly everything with any coverage
- lugia walls m2 so better have a counter
- belly drum, sd, and growth are hard to tell and can beat some of each other's checks
- you still want 1-2 sleep talkers in order to take out the sample team and sporespam, that may/not be mewtwo
 
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manu 11

When someone asks me if i am indian because of my name
is a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
Gen 4 Preliminary VR with roles included, 'Cause why not. Sorted Alphabetically within subranks. Roles in approximate order of viability from left to right, though certain teams may need a 'bad' role anyways.

"S": The Most Influential 'Mons in PH (So Far)
While not being THE best in the tier, they all must be accounted for in team building.
No Guard OHKO moves let Deoxys tear teams without at least 2 Wonder Guarders. Even then, Deoxys can spread long terms of sleep and rack up hazard damage with Gastro Acid based predictions.
Soul Dew makes the Lati Twins immensely powerful sweepers under the right conditions, and can break even without a boost. 1 Agility is enough to scare off a team without good priority / STAG. (Latios is trapped more easily, but can OHKO common dragons like Palkia with Spacial Rend.)
Wondertomb is immune to every standard attack with Fairies out of the way. However, due to a bug, repeated or boosted Fire Fangs can break through. Mold Breaker and Entry Hazards also limit Wondertomb's stay in the meta. Sweepers have to account for Spiritomb or be stopped prematurely.

"Physical" generally means Huge/Pure Power. "WG" can be Wonder Guard Pivot, Hazard Setter, Phazer, etc.

A+
A-
B+
B-
C+
C-
D (aka, I want to look into some of them more)

1.Whatever - Removed S and merged with A+ since both Latios and Palkia aren't as influential as it once was. Moved Regi and Slaking up, Suicune up, Deo-S up, all 1 tier. Ray down from A- to B-, Palk from S to B+. Gengar added to B-.
1.2 - Added Entei and Blaziken as less viable fire type who can more viably run Pure Power, moved Infernape up
Just posting my thoughts on the VR and Gen 4 in general.

Gen 4 Pure Hackmons is a very interesting tier. The lack of some key abilities like Prankster or Magic Bounce makes the game a lot more offensive. Also the Fire Fang glitch is like a nerfed version of Photon Geyser/Sunsteel Strike/Moongeist Beam which allows for some creativity by making some abilities actually usable.

In my opinion, there are 3 things that stand out in Gen 4 Pure Hackmons : Weather, Shadow Tag and No Guard.
Permanent weather can give enormous advantage to the team using it. Sun boosts Fire Fang, can give speed control to rather slow pokemon with chlorophyll and boost physical Attack and Special Defense with Flower Gift. Rain helps nerf Fire Fang, like sun it can help speed control but with Swift Swim and helps Steel types with their Fire weakness making them even more op. Sand helps Rock types by boosting their Special Defense and is usually a nice counter to Sun teams. Hail doesn't offer much sadly, but the residual damage hits usually everything (unlike sand which has more immunities) on the opponent's team as Ice types are rare so there is that. Also some specific sets become even more powerful under hail such as Spiritomb Wonder Guard level 2 with Pain Split/Curse/Endeavor/Filler.

To talk about No Guard, let's talk about Deoxys-S and why it should be higher on VR imo.

Deoxys-S can run lots of sets but No Guard is obviously the one that stands out.

Deoxys-S No guard is incredible in Gen 4 and probably more powerful here than in later gens. It is the fastest pokemon and only very few pokemon can actually outspeed it even with scarf or +1 (needs above base 104 of speed with nature). Sheer cold is an instant KO on anything not Wonder Guard or Sturdy usually forcing a switch to a pokemon with those abilities. The pressure it applies to teambuilding is insane as you basically need 2 Wonder Guard users (or more) or Fake out/Extreme Speed Huge Power. The lack of abilities of Gen 4 also makes it a lot more dangerous than Gen 5 or 6. Without Prankster, nothing can outspeed Deoxys-S naturally, it either needs priority or Choice Scarf giving Deoxys-S and its teamates a great advantage against any pokemon (Blocking yourself on 1 move can be fatal if the opponent has a Shadow Tag user that resists your move and can set up). Due to the fact that Magic Bounce doesn't exist in gen 4 yet, it also forces Wonder Guard to either have lum berry or Magic Coat, making those counters in both cases extremely weak to any switch to a Shadow Tag user which no other ability can do. No Magic Bounce also affects how easily Deoxys-S No Guard can set hazards as Magic Coat doesn't bounce them which means there is just no way to stop it from setting them except priority or Scarf (again).

Deoxys-S can also, while rare, carry moves for specific Wonder Guard such as Zap Cannon (Gyarados) or Fire Blast (Scizor) thanks to a correct Special Attack in order to break some WG cores easier. In the same way, it can run Fissure over Sheer Cold to hit Drapion or Steel Wonder Guard like Dialga, Registeel or Jirachi though Sheer Cold is the prefered move as it hits everything. Extreme Speed can also be considered to beat other Focus Sash users.

Deoxys-S also has other sets that can be pretty effective such as Chlorophyll/Swift Swim phazer with Copycat/Whirlwind/Spore/Filler which can destroy unprepared teams very easily after Stealth Rocks or Spikes because Magic Coat doesn't reflect Whirlwind in Gen 4. Deoxys-S can also serve as the fastest Shadow Tag user being able to outspeed most physical pokemon that set up with Dragon Dance such as Ho-Oh, Slaking/Regigigas and Garchomp. It does lack HP and Defense to wall them but if they lack priority, you can easily Encore/Perish Song thanks to Encore's mechanics in Gen 4. Mold Breaker Knock Off has some usefulness too to remove Shed Shell from Wonder Guard and make Shadow Tag users even more op or just remove items in general. Trick on No Guard is usually better though.

In conclusion, Deoxys-S No Guard is the fastest pokemon with the « strongest » move in the game. This forces every player to account for it when teambuilding. Defensively speaking, there are few checks and counters to Deoxys-S No Guard outside of Wonder Guard and Sturdy users. Offensively, priority Huge Power, Choice Scarf users and Chlorophyll/Swift Swim for weather teams are the best ways to kill/revenge kill it. Its other sets are effective too. They are usually unexpected and can throw someone off because people expect No Guard which you can take advantage of. For those reason i think, Deoxys-S should be higher on VR so A+ rank along Arceus, Ho-Oh and Lati@s i guess (I would put it S rank alone tbh).

To conclude on No Guard, it can be run on other pokemon for surprise effect but it will always be at its best on Deoxys-S imo. Mewtwo and Latios are definitely good pokemon for No Guard as they both have great Special Attack for coverage moves such as Zap Cannon.

So now onto Shadow Tag. This can win games so easily. 1 turn is all it needs to Encore the opponent then it can just set up with Dragon Dance, Agility, Tail Glow, give a Sub and Baton Pass to your Mold Breaker or Huge Power Fire Fang. There are different reasons why it is so good in Gen 4. First of all, the lack of Team Preview. You can't know if the opponent has Shadow Tag or not until they bring it out. Secondly, the lack of abilities that can help counter Shadow Tag namely Magic Bounce to reflect Encore and Prankster to Taunt/Spore/BP or whatever could help prevent Encore. Third, the mechanics of Encore in Gen 4 that makes it last between 3 and 7 turns. It also ignores Magic Coat. Finally, kinda already talked about it but the lack of Prankster that makes you unable to stop the pokemon that receives the stat boost which means you lose 99% of the time if the Shadow Tag user managed to Encore you. You can always have some weird set like Magic Guard Focus Sash Heart Swap to prevent a sweep but it isn't ideal.

The best user imo is Gengar. It's faster than most Wonder Guard (350 in Gen 4 is nice), Ghost type to ignore Extreme Speed and Rapid Spin and Poison type to remove Toxic Spikes which is great to prepare your sweep. Poison type also makes you use Black Sludge which is nice in case of trick. There are plenty of instances when you can switch in with your Shadow Tag user, when they recover, when they try to remove hazards, etc... Gengar is rather frail so it obviously can't switch in whenever it wants but it can take advantage of so many situation due to its speed/type and Encore which makes it very easy to use.

As of now, i feel Shadow Tag is best used to prepare a sweep but the usual Encore/Perish Song is good too as it can beat pokemon on their own while set up Shadow Tag users need an ally to finish. The fact remains that Shadow Tag is incredibly op. It forces WG to run Shed Shell or just serve as pivot which you can then use yourself to your advantage.

You can also give Shadow Tag to offensive pokemon in order to trap specific threats. Latios Shadow Tag Spore/Nasty Plot/Spacial Rend for example can take care of anything that isn't Wonder Guard.

I mostly talked about Gengar because i feel it deserves to be higher on the VR (A- imo), but there are other pokemon that use Shadow Tag very effectively. Basically anything fast that has some bulk works such as Mewtwo, Deoxys-S, Aerodactyl in Sand as it also checks Espeed, Arceus or Lugia. You can also go for the bulk approach with Registeel, Deoxys-D, Cresselia or Blissey.

For the D rank pokemon : Aerodactyl B-, Magic Guard set is very nice with Head Smash. You gotta hope that you have good coverage though. On sand, it gets extra bulk and can run Psycho Shift/Roost/Taunt to shut down WG and set up. Shadow Tag is nice in Sand too.

Swampert : only 1 weakness, resists Fire Fang, no damage from Sand. Kinda like Suicune tbh.

Rhyperior : Nice Attack for surprise Huge power (maybe in TR?) and good Ho-Oh counter on paper but Magic Guard Wood Hammer can ruin it. Bulky Sand setter imo, like Ttar.

Garchomp, Weavile, Shaymin-Sky : Both have niche roles but i feel there are several pokemon that do more and better than them. Weavile Huge Power Pursuit is nice, good for Hail. Garchomp has a great dual Stab and ok speed (doesn't outspeed Deoxys-S after 1 Dragon Dance sadly). Shaymin-Sky has Solar Beam in Sun i guess and can take care of Water types.

Darkrai : Dark is a good type with all the Psychic types around. Faster than Lati@s but slower than Mewtwo. Lacks some Special Attack to be good after 1 Nasty Plot.

The rest isn't that op and probably are C- or lower.

Finishing with a set i find pretty cool

Infernape @ Leftovers
Ability: Bad Dreams
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Spore
- Dragon Dance
- Fire Fang
- Substitute
After 1 Dragon Dance it outspeeds Deoxys-S. Spore Bad Dreams gives you free turn to set up while removing life. Breaks Focus Sash too. Magic Guard is very annoying but you will eventually get long sleep and you can capitalize on it. Ho-Oh Magic Guard, Giratina and Palkia are the most problematic pokemon for this set.

Well that's it for my thoughts on gen 4. This gen is definitely very interesting and there is still a lot of things to discover i think.
 
So I took a close look at gen3 PH and made these sets here.

Birdplane (Latias) (F) @ Soul Dew
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Recover
- Spikes
- Taunt/Heal Bell
- Dragon Claw

Thanks to the prevalence of Wonder Guard, Spikes are essentially unremovable in this metagame, and none of the currently prevalent pokemon fly or float.
STAB Soul Dew dragon claw has enough power to 2HKO DeoS, allowing it to avoid perishtrapping and not making it taunt bait, while Speed Boost not only allows outtaunting opposing Pokemon but also ensures winning the 1v1 against deoS due to outspeeding it.



Tha King (Slaking) @ Choice Band
Ability: Huge Power
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Doom Desire
- Extreme Speed
- Filler
- Filler

Going into Slaking's traditional answer, Sableye, on a doom desire will guaranteedly cost you a mon two turns later because...
Bulbapedia said:
The damage dealt uses the Attack stat of the user and Defense stat of the target at the time of move selection (not at the time the attack actually hits; if the target is switched out, the attack will hit its replacement but the damage is based on the original target Pokémon). Damage dealt by Doom Desire does not have a type; it is not affected by type effectiveness, does not receive STAB, and can hit Pokémon with Wonder Guard.
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Slaking Doom Desire vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye: 434-511
If it hits (85% acc sucks), something dies - and this doesn't exactly compromise Slaking's usual breaking power as it keeps three moveslots.


Bullet Uturn Where (Scizor) @ Leftovers
Ability: Wonder Guard
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 8 SpA / 252 SpD / 252SpE
Adamant Nature
- Toxic
- Recover
- Megahorn/Hidden Power Bug
- Filler

turns out this beats all three currently prevalent mons in sableye (can toxic, outspeeds to taunt if running it, is toxic-immune)/DeoS (bug stab)/Slaking (Typing+Wguard).
 
So I took a close look at gen3 PH and made these sets here.

Birdplane (Latias) (F) @ Soul Dew
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Recover
- Spikes
- Taunt/Heal Bell
- Dragon Claw

Thanks to the prevalence of Wonder Guard, Spikes are essentially unremovable in this metagame, and none of the currently prevalent pokemon fly or float.
STAB Soul Dew dragon claw has enough power to 2HKO DeoS, allowing it to avoid perishtrapping and not making it taunt bait, while Speed Boost not only allows outtaunting opposing Pokemon but also ensures winning the 1v1 against deoS due to outspeeding it.



Tha King (Slaking) @ Choice Band
Ability: Huge Power
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Doom Desire
- Extreme Speed
- Filler
- Filler

Going into Slaking's traditional answer, Sableye, on a doom desire will guaranteedly cost you a mon two turns later because...

252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Slaking Doom Desire vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye: 434-511
If it hits (85% acc sucks), something dies - and this doesn't exactly compromise Slaking's usual breaking power as it keeps three moveslots.


Bullet Uturn Where (Scizor) @ Leftovers
Ability: Wonder Guard
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 8 SpA / 252 SpD / 252SpE
Adamant Nature
- Toxic
- Recover
- Megahorn/Hidden Power Bug
- Filler

turns out this beats all three currently prevalent mons in sableye (can toxic, outspeeds to taunt if running it, is toxic-immune)/DeoS (bug stab)/Slaking (Typing+Wguard).
Great sets spheal. I’ve been looking at Gen 3 Ph alongside him and I discovered some really useful and interesting sets as well.

Scyther @ Lum Berry
Ability: Shadow Tag
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Baton Pass
- Taunt
- Megahorn
- Toxic

This set is designed to be a partner to a Speed Boost user such as the Latias Spheal made there, but along as it has baton pass. Gain some Speed from your partner, then switch onto sableye or Deo-S (two of the most prominent and prepped-for Pokemon in the metagame) and kill them. Toxic and Taunt is to beat Sableye and Megahorn obviously to OHKO Deo-S. Baton Pass is for when they switch into their scizor, another brilliant Pokemon we’ve been trying out, and because my Speed Boost Pokemon was Groudon with Sacred Fire, the pair works amazingly together.

Deoxys-Attack @ Choice Band
Ability: Huge Power
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Doom Desire
- Extreme Speed
- Sacred Fire
- Zen Headbutt

While Slaking is an amazing Doom Desire spammer, Deoxys-Attack is an all-round wallbreaker that can beat Sableye (probably at the cost of being toxiced though), Scizor, and most things just with Doom Desire. Not much to say here. Great revenge killer as well.


A couple of things about your post Spheal, in general I like the sets, but Scizor doesn’t beat Slaking as Slaking often carries Sacred Fire and Scizor pretty much has to carry Taunt to beat Sableye. Very nitpicky though.

I think Generation 3 is the most fun to play overall, and I’m looking at new sets all the time!

E: just so you know my Showdown name is Octavial, so stop and say hi!
 
Scyther @ Lum Berry
Ability: Shadow Tag
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Baton Pass
- Taunt
- Megahorn
- Toxic
I can see SD>BP on this to sweep after coming in on sab (assuming no Scizor/random fire type is in the way), or just raw DD and drop the speed boost partner.

Deoxys-Attack @ Choice Band
Ability: Huge Power
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Doom Desire
- Extreme Speed
- Sacred Fire
- Zen Headbutt
I still feel Slaking is better, as STAB Espeed secures quite a few KOS and Espeed is still the move slaking should usually spam instead of Doom, though the special coverage on this certainly looks interesting.
also Psychic/Psycho Boost>zen, see below

Slaking often carries Sacred Fire
fam this isnt gen4, Zen Headbutt/Sacred fire are special

Scizor pretty much has to carry Taunt to beat Sableye
In the short run, yes it does. However, inbetween spikes and Toxic's PP vs Aromatherapy, Tauntless Scizor still heavily pressures Sableye which cannot do anything back except if you run wisp
 
Some Gen 3 stuff:
1. Double Struggle
Slaking @ Leftovers
Ability: Pure Power
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Struggle
- Struggle
- Refresh / Recover / Rest
- Taunt / Extreme Speed / Coverage
Due to an in game or showdown bug (I can't tell - it doesn't work in gen 7), if you have 2 Struggle moveslots, you can struggle infinitely. This is the only move able to actually break Sableye, because Doom Desire/Future Sight take time to activate. This is also the perfect sweeper after Bulk Ups and Speed Boosts, but requires much more boosting than normal.

2. Running 2 Full Coverage Mons
Even with Sableye running around, running all the coverage moves to beat random WG users is potent (depending on the team, of course). You can fit Spikes, Taunt, and Doom Desire/Future Sight too. Special 'Mons can even run Wonder Guard.
Physical: Rock / Ghost / Fighting, Bug, Doom Desire (can't hit Water or Skarm)
Special: Fire / Water / Grass, Electric, Dragon, Future Sight (can't hit Normal)

3. clap boosts lol
Deoxys-Attack @ Lum Berry
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Fake Out
- Megahorn / Coverage
- Taunt / Coverage
- Baton Pass / Protect
Scares out most leads with coverage and can potentially can revenge kill a boosted threat. Wins against Deoxys-S on lead or on the switch. Can BP out of something it can't hit, too.

Birdplane (Latias) (F) @ Soul Dew
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Recover
- Spikes
- Taunt/Heal Bell
- Dragon Claw

Thanks to the prevalence of Wonder Guard, Spikes are essentially unremovable in this metagame, and none of the currently prevalent pokemon fly or float.
STAB Soul Dew dragon claw has enough power to 2HKO DeoS, allowing it to avoid perishtrapping and not making it taunt bait, while Speed Boost not only allows outtaunting opposing Pokemon but also ensures winning the 1v1 against deoS due to outspeeding it.
We've still got Encore - while not being a monster as it was in Gen 3, its longer than the 2 turn Taunt and can STag lock Pokemon. Would also have Protect somewhere in there, or perhaps even Future Sight.
Bullet Uturn Where (Scizor) @ Leftovers
Ability: Wonder Guard
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 8 SpA / 252 SpD / 252SpE
Adamant Nature
- Toxic
- Recover
- Megahorn/Hidden Power Bug
- Filler
turns out this beats all three currently prevalent mons in sableye (can toxic, outspeeds to taunt if running it, is toxic-immune)/DeoS (bug stab)/Slaking (Typing+Wguard).
DeoS doesn't get OHKO'ed by Megahorn and is only 3KO'd if it boosts its defense.
Tha King (Slaking) @ Choice Band
Ability: Huge Power
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Doom Desire
- Extreme Speed
- Filler
- Filler
imo doom desire should be on non CB sets soley so you aren't locked into a useless move, and so that you can taunt on the switch
 
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Ransei

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Hey don't leave me out! Here's a quickly written post with some sets.
Thanks to the prevalence of Wonder Guard, Spikes are essentially unremovable in this metagame, and none of the currently prevalent pokemon fly or float.
I'd say there have been some Ho-Oh, Skarmory, Zapdos, and Rayquaza roaming around the metagame at least. I've built one of each of them too.

Rayquaza @ Choice Band
Ability: Shadow Tag
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Trick
- Hidden Power [Rock]
- Energy Ball
- Flamethrower

This Choice Band Rayquaza aims to KO Wonder Guard Ho-Oh, Swampert, and Scizor with its coverage, and leave Sableye with very limited opportunities by using Trick against it if Rayquaza no longer needs Choice Band.

Zapdos, Ho-Oh, and Skarmory run a wide variation of movesets, likely ones involving Taunt, Setting up, Baton Passing, and/or in the case of Zapdos and Ho-Oh, running specific coverage attacks for other Wonder Guards in mind. Teams I've built with these Pokemon often pair up with a Deoxys-Speed for the Speed Boost before they Taunt.

fam this isnt gen4, Zen Headbutt/Sacred fire are special
I'll argue that despite Sacred Fire being special, Slaking would still love to run it and/or Flamethrower. These are special coverage moves Slaking could use with its base 95 Special Attack (which is fine in Gen 3), to KO Scizor. Sacred Fire could also be great for high burn chances without having to use Will-O-Wisp as this metagame is dominated by Taunt. Here's a particularly odd set from one of my teams

Slaking @ Leftovers
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Body Slam
- Sacred Fire
- Taunt
- Baton Pass

It's Serene Grace to give Body Slam a 60% chance of paralysis and Sacred Fire a 100% chance to burn if it hits. These are mostly to hinder the opposing team passively as anyone relying on Speed Boost or Taunt wouldn't like to be para'd, and Huge Power attackers like Slaking get shut down by burn. As usual it has the Taunt + Baton Pass core to safely pass speed boosts from other Pokemon.

When building for Gen 3 Hackmons, one of the things I sought for was something to greatly deal with Sableye. I searched for Fighting-types with a balance between Speed, Defense, and Attack. Here is what was found:

Poliwrath @ Leftovers
Ability: Shadow Tag
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
IVs: 30 HP
- Foresight
- Brick Break
- Taunt
- Baton Pass

Poliwrath would hold the same functions as Fighting-types with higher Attack and higher Speed, but it's physically bulkier, which helps deal with Huge Power Slaking better. It's the typical Foresight + Brick Break core that beats Sableye, with Shadow Tag and Taunt to ensure Sableye doesn't move anywhere. Theoretically, other FIghting-types like Breloom or Primeape can be used with the same set and could Taunt over Poliwrath assuming they share the same amount of speed boosts. If you do use these alternatives, it'll help if you pack up defense boosts beforehand.

That is all for now.
 
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