BH Balanced Hackmons Old Gens Hub

cityscapes

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Balanced Hackmons Old Gens Hub

Welcome to the BH Old Gens Hub! This thread has the purpose of providing information and resources about the past generations of BH (Gens 4-7) as well as a place to discuss these metagames. Each post will contain actively updated sample teams, relevant mechanics, and viability rankings for its respective old gen as well as links to other resources. The thread can be used to discuss sample teams/viability rankings as well as general talk about the metagame. Here is the previous thread.
 
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cityscapes

Take care of yourself.
is a Community Contributor
USUM BH

Important mechanical changes:
  • Core Enforcer, Revelation Dance, Pursuit, and Judgment among other moves are usable. Click here for a full list.
  • All Pokemon in the Generation 7 National Pokedex can be used, including Mega Evolutions and Ultra Necrozma.
  • Z-Crystals and Mega Stones can be used, allowing for the use of Z-Moves and manual Mega Evolution.
  • Figy Berry and its equivalents restore HP by 50% instead of 33%.
  • Rapid Spin is 20 BP and does not increase Speed.
  • Grassy, Electric, and Psychic Terrain boost is 1.5x instead of 1.3x.
  • Defog no longer removes Terrains.
Click here for a comprehensive list of changes.
Pokemon
  • :groudon-primal: Primal Groudon (Link)
  • :rayquaza-mega: Mega Rayquaza (Link)
Moves
  • Chatter (Link)
  • OHKO Moves
Abilities
  • Wonder Guard
  • Pure/Huge Power
  • Parental Bond (Link)
  • Protean (Link) (Gen 7: Link)
  • Shadow Tag/Arena Trap
  • Moody (Link)
  • Water Bubble (Link)
  • Innards Out (Link)
  • Magnet Pull (Link)
  • Stakeout (Link)
  • Psychic Surge (Link)
  • Illusion (Link)
  • Contrary (Link)
Clauses
  • Ability Clause: No more than two Pokemon with the same ability per team. (Link)
  • CFZ Clause: Use of Crystal-Free Z-moves (CFZ's) is disallowed (Link, Discussion)
  • ComaTalk Clause: Sleep Talk can't be run on a Pokemon with the Comatose ability (Link)
  • Endless Battle Clause: Forcing an endless battle is banned, similar to the rest of PS
  • Evasion Moves Clause: No moves that can increase Evasion are allowed. This does not include abilities or items that may modify Evasion passively such as Sand Veil or Brightpowder (Link)
  • Sleep Clause: Only one Pokemon on the opponent's team can be put to sleep at a time. This excludes self-inflicted sleep or Comatose (Link)
Items
S-Rank
:chansey::blissey::pikachu: Imposter
:xerneas: Xerneas

A-Rank
A+
:gengar-mega: Gengar-Mega
:giratina: Giratina
:groudon:
Groudon [Red Orb]
:mewtwo-mega-y: Mewtwo-Mega-Y
:shedinja: Shedinja
:zygarde-complete: Zygarde-Complete

A
:diancie-mega: Diancie-Mega
:kyogre-primal: Kyogre-Primal
:mewtwo-mega-x: Mewtwo-Mega-X

A-
:kartana: Kartana
:yveltal: Yveltal

B-Rank
B+
:garchomp-mega: Garchomp-Mega
:registeel: Registeel

B
:aerodactyl-mega: Aerodactyl-Mega
:arceus: Arceus
:dialga: Dialga
:ho-oh: Ho-Oh
:kangaskhan:
Kangaskhan [Kangaskhanite]
:kyurem-black: Kyurem-Black
:magearna: Magearna
:necrozma-dusk-mane: Necrozma-Dusk-Mane
:regigigas::slaking: Regigigas/Slaking
:tyranitar-mega: Tyranitar-Mega


B-
:aegislash:
Aegislash
:audino-mega: Audino-Mega
:beedrill-mega: Beedrill-Mega
:blaziken-mega: Blaziken-Mega
:celesteela: Celesteela
:chansey: Chansey
:cresselia: Cresselia
:greninja-ash: Greninja-Ash
:kyurem-white: Kyurem-White
:slowbro-mega: Slowbro-Mega
:solgaleo: Solgaleo
:zekrom: Zekrom

C-Rank
:charizard-mega-y: Charizard-Mega-Y (Poison Heal, Aerilate, Triage)
:deoxys-attack: Deoxys-Attack
:ferrothorn: Ferrothorn
:gyarados-mega: Gyarados-Mega
:metagross-mega: Metagross-Mega (Magic Bounce, Regenerator, Tough Claws)
:necrozma-ultra: Necrozma-Ultra
:palkia: Palkia (Drizzle, Tinted Lens, Swift Swim)
:pheromosa: Pheromosa
:rayquaza: Rayquaza (Aerilate, Triage, Tough Claws)
:sableye-mega:Sableye-Mega
:scizor-mega: Scizor-Mega (Flash Fire)
:steelix-mega: Steelix-Mega (Flash Fire, Prankster, Regenerator)
:suicune: Suicune (Magic Bounce)
:swampert-mega: Swampert-Mega
:tapu-fini: Tapu Fini (Fur Coat)

D-Rank
:aggron-mega: Aggron-Mega (Regenerator, Prankster)
:ampharos-mega: Ampharos-Mega (Prankster, Galvanize)
Arceus-Steel (Multitype)
:darmanitan-zen: Darmanitan-Zen (Regenerator, Fur Coat)
:diancie: Diancie
:gardevoir-mega: Gardevoir-Mega (Tinted Lens, Pixilate)
:giratina-origin: Giratina-Origin (Magic Bounce, Prankster, Mold Breaker)
:groudon: Groudon (Fur Coat, Soundproof)
:heatran: Heatran (Magic Bounce, Levitate)
:heracross-mega: Heracross-Mega (Triage, Tinted Lens)
:hoopa-unbound: Hoopa-Unbound
:lucario-mega: Lucario-Mega (Steelworker)
:lugia: Lugia (Aerilate, Magic Bounce)
:marowak-alola: Marowak-Alola (Tinted Lens, Tough Claws)
:nihilego: Nihilego (Sand Stream, Levitate)
:regirock: Regirock (Sand Stream)
:reshiram: Reshiram (Turboblaze, Poison Heal, Desolate Land)
:sceptile-mega: Sceptile-Mega
:stakataka: Stakataka (Steelworker, Sand Stream, Levitate)
:toxapex: Toxapex
:venusaur-mega: Venusaur-Mega (Flash Fire)
:xurkitree: Xurkitree (Galvanize)
:zeraora: Zeraora (Snow Warning, Teravolt)

Changelog:
Update 1 (Oct. 15, 2020)

See the BH Central Resources link below for changes made during the generation.
Double PH TDS Variation by Marsopa Trump & Test Rex
This team has a solid defensive and offensive core. I chose ferrothorn over registeel to have a more solid answer to pheal spikes setter xerneas (without magma) that is rising in use (as well a spike setter pheal audino). Ferro is a nice mabouncer and got quite more usable post ray ban. In this variation I sack mmx and diancie and change them for yveltal and xerneas, both pheal. Xerneas was chosen for it utility to set spikes safely while bringing offensive power and the option to boost and sweep. Is hard imposterproofed by ferrothorn at +0 and+1, if its further boosted xern itself can still imposterproof (unless crit uh), letting imp set spikes but it also goes for you. Yveltal is chosen as a knock offer and u-turn punisher. I have a lot of oportinities to boost during a match and can punish spectral users with beak blast. It imposterproofs himself (unless crit uh x 2). Anchor stand for have a better mashup against audino, impostertrap and ocasionally trapping passive walls without stat control to boost in the face. Its a solid mon over all. This variation is a bit more defensive but still have enough offensive presence. Earth power in xern may be changed by nuzzle or another support move.

Final Gambit Lunala by Chessking345
Fun team around a Ghost core. Lunala is immensely threatening to anything not Dark, which it just blows up and frees Gengar potential sweep. Zygarde Cresselia and Kyogre act as a weird but decently effective defensive core. Nuzzle and Spectrals are kinda the main setup check so be careful with opposing setup. Lead Imposter or Cresselia into Zyg or something. Sometimes Lunala is a better breaker so use Gengar to weaken checks. Dark Z part shot can be used to heal Lunala to blow up stuff if it’s chipped.
Team is susceptible to Guzzlord because Lunala doesn’t blow it up and it checks Gengar. Pursuit trappers are also threatening as 3 mons are weak to them. PH normals are also somewhat threatening as they are immune to the main methods of setup control, forcing the use of the offensive mons to check

Legend of the Panda by Marsopa Trump & Test Rex
The ttar is meant to be a pangoro but I dont want the team to get auto rejected lol. beedrill and ferro do similar jobs than in the other team. Fini works as a stallbreaker with infestation+scald which is a deadly combo. Its also a good rock setter. Darmanitan is a regenvest to solid block non-rock stab diancies (ferro block diancies with rock coverage and darm does so with diancie with fire coverage), refridge kyurems, refri or pixi mmx and blanket check for mmy, as well as being able to spred burns with happiness. Standard physical wall gira and ttar finish the team with his raw high power and the ability to trap mons with pursuit and remove items. The improofs are: ttar > fini (after orb activation), bee > fini and darmanitan, gira > ttar and ferro, ferro > darmanitan, fini > itself and ferro, darmanitan > fini and ttar.

Eons of Stars by SectoniaServant
Built around the concept of Fairy-Spam, kinda. This team kinda struggles with Shedinja, hence why Necrozma-Dusk-Mane is carrying Sunsteel Strike. Xerneas is improofed by Ho-oh, Mega Diancie is improofed by Necrozma-Dusk-Mane. Honestly, I prefer the other team more because it has better ways of dealing with Shedinja, but this team did pretty decently on ladder.

Triage Charizard by Chessking345
Generic Balance team. Main Breaker is Charizard-Y which can sweep very very easily. Tyranitar provides offensive support. Xerneas Toxapex Giratina form a defensive core, Imposter rounds off. Lead is usually Imposter but leading with Char-Y or Pex is ok too. Really try to get Orb activation super fast because your Improof requires it. Tyranitar has great longevity and isn't very scared of Imposter coming in as it is doing good damage while threatening Knock. Toxapex is your NormGar check and is a very good bouncer overall, you can switch it into a lot of defensive mons as well as PH Xern and MMX without much trouble. You want rocks off for Charizard to ease setup. Charizard is pretty easy to get in actually as it has a lot of longevity, Tail Glow is safe play pretty much unless opponent has pivoting and Imposter. If everything is weakened or checks eliminated PH Xern can clean late game which is cool. Team has 2 strong priority which helps against non DQM setup. Tyranitar and Chansey improof Charizard, Xerneas improofs Giratina and Tyranitar, Toxapex improofs Xerneas.
Team is not great against Gengar because Tyranitar dies to Sword, luckily DQM doesn't have the boost so Pex can soft check kinda. Kyurem-W is also kinda threatening because Toxapex isn't a switch-in.

Alternate options on the team are utility move over Volt Switch on Chary to ease improofing. Pursuit over Sucker Punch or Rock Blast on TTar to trap and dent some stuff. Shed Shell over Eviolite on Imposter. Knock Off over Spectral Thief on Toxapex to ease Gengar matchup (use Charizard to check Xern).

Gensokyo Millennium by Gurpreet Patel (Sent you a Friend Request)
similar to penguin (rip) and most other shed teams this team takes some getting used to, but it can be very powerful if played well. poison heal mmy is a neat set that can really go in vs weakened teams and teams that rely on passive mons like chans and registeel. pixilate xern is the secondary hazard setter, the hazard remover, and a pretty strong wallbreaker that can pick off some weakened resists unlike the ph set. imposter + shed is imposter + shed. hooh is the bouncer here because it beats nearly all hazard setters, similarly gira is the prankster because the team needs a blanket check to physical attackers.
watch out for specs gar that mons pretty annoying, youll need to make use of mmy + imposter + xern to retain momentum and eventually take it down. very uncommon pokemon though so dont worry about him too much

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-995280850 vs balance
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-995804166 vs stall
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-995811166 vs mmy spam
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-995816874 vs ghost spam

Sheer Force Deoxys-A by Chessking345
Generic Balance team. Main Breaker is Deoxys-A which can also revenge slower threats quite easily (run calcs though). PH MMX provides support by getting hazards and chipping stuff. Giratina and FC Chansey make a solid core and Audino helps with hazards and pivoting while Imposter rounds the team off by providing additional defensive utility and scouting. Typical lead is Imposter but Audino is a really fine one as well to pivot into MMX. You should try to get Toxic Orb activated ASAP but you have 2 underleveled pivoting which should be helpful. Deoxys has 0 bulk so play it carefully but it can be very rewarding if you get it in and they don't have a durable switch-in, also since it dies to everything already switching into rocks or spikes is fine. FC Chansey might want to hit U-turn a lot but keep it reasonably healthy esp if hazards end up on your side. FC Chansey improofs Deoxys and Audino, Audino improofs Giratina and MMX, MMX improofs FC Chansey.
Team has no steel so Specs -ate definitely pressures a lot and in those matchups you really want to be keeping FC Chansey very high and hazards off. Team also doesn't have the greatest matchup vs PH Xern as Audino can get chipped down with QD+Moonblast.

Alternate options on the team are Gunk Shot over Sludge Wave on Deo-A for more power, Moonblast over Ice Beam or Sludge Wave to do more to MMX, U-turn over Volt on Audino to avoid Zygs, Anchor over Volt on Audino to ease improofing and matchup against Xerneas (team can undergo a bigger restructure), alternate move over Poison Fang on FC Chansey, Shed Shell over Eviolite on Imposter.

A Tale of Five Mewtwos by pazza
weaknesses: nuzzle spikes xern ph, gotta drop it with dbond or kill it with ttar.effectiveness: kill prankster mon set up mmx, or just break teams with the sheer power of spamming mmx, most teams don't have a counter for every one.

uh i don't think i need to really explain much more go read the rmt if u need explaining
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...wtwo-xs-and-a-tyranitar.3652085/#post-8173505

Shed Stall 2019 by Funbot28
there is nothing here
 
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cityscapes

Take care of yourself.
is a Community Contributor
ORAS BH

Important mechanical changes:
  • 510 EV limit is enforced.
  • Burn deals 12.5% per turn, not 6.25%.
  • Soul Dew boosts Special Attack and Special Defense of Latios and Latias by 1.5x.
  • Dark Void's accuracy is 80%, and it is not restricted to Darkrai.
  • Prankster affects Dark-types.
  • -ate abilities grant a 1.3x power boost, not 1.2x.
  • Gale Wings grants +1 priority to all Flying-type attacks regardless of the user's HP.
  • Base critical hit rate is 1/16 instead of 1/24.
  • Normalize no longer boosts the power of affected moves.
Click here for a comprehensive list of changes.
Moves
  • Assist (Link)
  • Chatter (Link)
  • OHKO Moves
Abilities
  • Wonder Guard
  • Pure/Huge Power
  • Parental Bond (Link)
  • Protean (Link)
  • Shadow Tag/Arena Trap
  • Moody (Link)
Pokemon
  • Primal Groudon (Link)
  • Primal Kyogre (Link)
Clauses
  • Ability Clause: No more than two Pokemon with the same ability per team. (Link)
  • -Ate Clause: No more than one Pokemon with the ability Aerilate, Refrigerate or Pixilate per team (Link)
  • Endless Battle Clause: Forcing an endless battle is banned, similar to the rest of PS
  • Evasion Moves Clause: No moves that can increase Evasion are allowed. This does not include abilities or items that may modify Evasion passively such as Sand Veil or Brightpowder (Link)
S-Rank
:chansey: Chansey
:diancie-mega: Mega Diancie
:rayquaza-mega: Mega Rayquaza

A-Rank
A+
:giratina:
Giratina
:gengar-mega: Mega Gengar

A
:aegislash: Aegislash
:groudon-primal: Groudon (Red Orb)
:audino-mega: Mega Audino
:mewtwo-mega-x: Mega Mewtwo X
:tyranitar-mega: Mega Tyranitar
:registeel: Registeel

A-
:dialga: Dialga
:kyogre: Kyogre
:latias-mega: Mega Latias
:latios-mega: Mega Latios
:mewtwo-mega-y: Mega Mewtwo Y
:shedinja: Shedinja

B-Rank
B+

:arceus: Arceus
:kyurem-black: Kyurem-Black
:garchomp-mega: Mega Garchomp
:gyarados-mega: Mega Gyarados
:yveltal:Yveltal

B
:regigigas: Regigigas
:slaking: Slaking

B-
:gengar:
Gengar
:groudon: Groudon
:ho-oh: Ho-Oh
:blaziken-mega: Mega Blaziken
:metagross-mega: Mega Metagross
:regirock: Regirock
:xerneas: Xerneas

C-Rank
C+
:cresselia:
Cresselia
:kyurem-white: Kyurem-White
:lugia: Lugia
:aerodactyl-mega: Mega Aerodactyl
:aggron-mega: Mega Aggron
:sceptile-mega: Mega Sceptile
:steelix-mega: Mega Steelix
:venusaur-mega: Mega Venusaur
:palkia: Palkia

C
:deoxys-attack:
Deoxys-Attack
:deoxys-speed: Deoxys-Speed
:hoopa-unbound: Hoopa-Unbound
:scizor-mega: Mega Scizor
:reshiram: Reshiram

C-
:giratina-origin: Giratina-Origin
:swampert-mega: Mega Swampert
:zekrom: Zekrom

D-Rank
:ferrothorn: Ferrothorn
:heatran: Heatran
:kangaskhan: Kangaskhan
:mawile: Mawile
:alakazam-mega: Mega Alakazam
:ampharos-mega: Mega Ampharos
:heracross-mega: Mega Heracross
:salamence-mega: Mega Salamence
:pikachu: Pikachu
Hell's Spawn by NOCturnal Hunter
:chansey::chansey::audino-mega::registeel::arceus-ghost::giratina:
Description

Mega Rayquaza and Mega Tyranitar Balance by Kingslayer2779
:tyranitar-mega::giratina::rayquaza-mega::chansey::audino-mega::gengar-mega:
Description

Sandstorm Balance by HeadsILoseTailsYouWin
:rayquaza-mega::registeel::xerneas::regirock::dialga::tyranitar-mega:
Description

Bulky Nuke Offense by E4 Flint
:latios-mega::registeel::chansey::mewtwo-mega-x::rayquaza-mega::giratina:
Description

Semistall by highlighter
:latios-mega::groudon::ho-oh::aegislash::audino-mega::tyranitar-mega:
Description

Balance by cauliflower1
:audino-mega::mewtwo-mega-x::diancie-mega::slowbro-mega::giratina::dialga:
Description

Gengar Balance by dragonite drake
:gengar::diancie-mega::registeel::rayquaza-mega::chansey::aegislash:
Description
 

cityscapes

Take care of yourself.
is a Community Contributor
BW BH


Important Mechanical Changes:
  • 510 EV limit is no longer enforced.
  • Fairy type does not exist.
  • Terrains do not exist.
  • Critical hit damage is 2x instead of 1.5x.
  • Knock Off's base power is 20.
  • Infiltrator and sound-based moves no longer go through Substitute.
  • Weather summoned by Drought and similar abilities lasts indefinitely.
  • Steel resists Ghost and Dark.
  • Pokestar Studios opponents are usable in battle.
  • The sleep counter resets if the sleeping Pokemon switches out.
  • Defog does not remove hazards on the user's side.
  • Some special moves like Draco Meteor, Hurricane, and Fire Blast have a slightly higher base power. Click here for a full list.
  • Grass-types are no longer immune to powder moves.
Click here for the research thread. It's a bit less organized than more modern ones, so this RoA thread is also recommended.
Moves
  • OHKO Moves
Abilities
  • Wonder Guard
  • Pure/Huge Power
  • Shadow Tag/Arena Trap
Clauses
  • Sleep Clause: Only one Pokemon on the opponent's team can be put to sleep at a time. This excludes self-inflicted sleep or Comatose (Link)
  • Endless Battle Clause: Forcing an endless battle is banned, similar to the rest of PS
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/balanced-hackmons-viability-rankings-thread.3480659/

This VR thread is in an unconventional format. Personally I'm not sure whether to carry it over the way it is or make a new more standard VR from scratch, so I'm asking all of you before posting it here. It's also not great at representing everything; for example, there are no weather setters on this VR.
None yet
 
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cityscapes

Take care of yourself.
is a Community Contributor
DPP BH


Important Mechanical Changes:
  • Team Preview does not exist.
  • Magic Coat does not block hazards, Taunt, or Torment.
  • Explosion and Self-Destruct have their base power doubled.
  • Encore lasts for 3 to 7 turns.
  • Sturdy does not have its Focus Sash effect and only works as an immunity to OHKO moves like Sheer Cold.
  • Magic Guard makes a Pokemon unable to be fully paralyzed.
  • Tail Glow gives +2 Special Attack, not +3.
  • Wish restores 50% of the recipient's HP, regardless of what the user's max HP is.
  • All of Rotom's forms are Ghost/Electric-type.
Moves
  • OHKO Moves
Abilities
  • Wonder Guard
  • Pure/Huge Power
  • Shadow Tag/Arena Trap
  • Weather + Speed-Boosting Weather Ability
Clauses
  • Ability Clause: No more than two Pokemon with the same ability per team.
  • Endless Battle Clause: Forcing an endless battle is banned, similar to the rest of PS
None yet
None yet
 

cityscapes

Take care of yourself.
is a Community Contributor
:rb/snorlax: RBY BH :rb/tauros:


Important Mechanical Changes:
  • Special Attack and Special Defense are compressed into the Special stat.
  • Frozen Pokemon do not thaw naturally, and can only be thawed by Fire Blast, Flamethrower, Ember, and Haze.
  • Waking up from Sleep ends a Pokemon's turn.
  • Toxic poison turns into regular poison when the afflicted Pokemon switches out.
  • In addition to resetting stats on both sides, Haze removes the opposing Pokemon's major status condition and removes minor status such as Reflect and Leech Seed from both sides.
  • Hyper Beam's recharge turn is skipped if the user KOes the target.
  • Substitute is bypassed by Disable, Leech Seed, sleep, primary paralysis, and secondary confusion.
  • Base critical hit rate is (floor[S/2] * 2) / 256, where S is the attacking Pokemon's base Speed. For high-crit moves like Slash and Crabhammer, this rate is multiplied by 4.
  • Pokemon can enter battles pre-statused by equipping the items PAR, SLP, PSN, FRZ, and BRN in the teambuilder importable. This status counts as self-inflicted and does not count towards Sleep Clause and Freeze Clause.
  • Leech Seed saps 1/16 per turn multiplied by the target's current Toxic counter.
  • Roar and Whirlwind do nothing.
  • Reflect and Light Screen last until the user switches out, and double the user's Defense and Special, respectively, when taking hits.
  • Pokemon of up to level 255 can be used.
  • Missingno. can be used.
Click here and here for a comprehensive list of changes. Note that not all of these mechanics are implemented correctly on PS.

This metagame can be played on http://rby.psim.us/.
Moves
  • Bind
  • Clamp
  • Dig
  • Fire Spin
  • Fly
  • Wrap
Pokemon
  • Mewtwo
Clauses
  • Endless Battle Clause: Forcing an endless battle is banned, similar to the rest of PS
  • Freeze Clause: Only one Pokemon on the opponent's team can be frozen at a time. This excludes self-inflicted freeze.
  • OHKO Clause: OHKO moves are banned.
  • Sleep Clause: Only one Pokemon on the opponent's team can be put to sleep at a time. This excludes self-inflicted sleep.
None yet
None yet
 
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More of a quick question, I know BH originated in Gen 5, and you included Gen 4.

Could you confirm if there ever will be a Gen 3 created?

I feel Gen 1 is pretty limited to just Mewtwo and Amnesia being banned, Mew / Starmie as S Tier, and everything else would very much represent OU - Taurus, Chansey, Gengar, Alakazam, etc.

Gen 2 has some potential via the Dark and Steel types keeping Psychics from dominating, and the addition of held items, but pretty much only Berserk Gene, and Leftovers, or a niche Light Ball, Thick Club, or Rest Miracle Berry sets would be used. Although new Legendaries like Lugia and Ho-Oh would balance out Mewtwo, and offer helpful movepool additions like Sacred Fire and Aeroblast for the Gen 1 Birds in Moltres, or Dodrio, respectively.

I feel Gen 3 offers a good starting point for BH, since it has more viable items, such as the new Choice Band, and Soul Dew or old favorites like Leftovers. The additional moves in Calm Mind also mean it can enable bulky setup from the SpA side of the spectrum, while the implementation of Abilities can keep things balanced such as Flash Fire or Levitate enabling Registeel much like it did in BH Gen 7.

Most importantly many of the mainstays of BH 5-6 Gen were from Gen 3, which goes to show how relevant the actual Pokemon are from this point onward, where we finally get to see the Pokedex showcasing enough diversity in expanded types with appropriate stat distribution. I.e. Shedinja, Rayquaza, Slaking, Groudon, Deoxys-S/A, were some of the most used Pokemon and unique from others.

I think Gen 3, for sure deserves a BH, and I wanted to know who will create it?

It would be a good project to lead, and I wouldn’t mind going for it. It was the first “real” generation in regards to metagame play, as it was the first generation that smogon was a part of, and basically reset from Gens 1-2 due to the Gameboy not connecting via trade/battles from prior Gens, and was able to introduce so much of what we consider staples today, like adjustable EVs, and Natures.

Most importantly, it was when the internet was really taking off and was the first generation that was researchable online for competitive battling. Sure Serebii existed since Gen 2, but that was more about General information and not specific to competitive formats.

Gen 2 may deserve one, but it is more up in the air with how limited the moves and Pokedex are.

Thank you.

EDIT: Gen 3 was before the Gen 4 Atk/SpA move split for Attacks. Something I think would be pertinent for the list of changes between later generations.
 
Last edited:

cityscapes

Take care of yourself.
is a Community Contributor
More of a quick question, I know BH originated in Gen 5, and you included Gen 4.

Could you confirm if there ever will be a Gen 3 created?

I feel Gen 1 is pretty limited to just Mewtwo and Amnesia being banned, Mew / Starmie as S Tier, and everything else would very much represent OU - Taurus, Chansey, Gengar, Alakazam, etc.

Gen 2 has some potential via the Dark and Steel types keeping Psychics from dominating, and the addition of held items, but pretty much only Berserk Gene, and Leftovers, or a niche Light Ball, Thick Club, or Rest Miracle Berry sets would be used. Although new Legendaries like Lugia and Ho-Oh would balance out Mewtwo, and offer helpful movepool additions like Sacred Fire and Aeroblast for the Gen 1 Birds in Moltres, and Zapdos.

I feel Gen 3 offers a good starting point for BH, since it has more viable items, such as the new Choice Band, and Soul Dew or old favorites like Leftovers. The additional moves in Calm Mind also mean it can enable bulky setup from the SpA side of the spectrum, while the implementation of Abilities can keep things balanced such as Flash Fire or Levitate enabling Registeel much like it did in BH Gen 7.

Most importantly many of the mainstays of BH 5-6 Gen were from Gen 3, which goes to show how relevant the actual Pokemon are from this point onward, where we finally get to see the Pokedex showcasing enough diversity in expanded types with appropriate stat distribution

I think Gen 3, for sure deserves a BH, and I wanted to know who will create it?

Gen 2 may deserve one, but it is more up in the air with how limited the movesand Pokedex are.

Thank you.
gen 3 is weird because abilities are tied to personality value meaning you have to use legal abilities. ti told me to only put 4-7 cause the other bh gens are strange, but if a playerbase forms i'm open to making posts in the future

edit: also feel free to discuss gens 1-3 here
 
gen 3 is weird because abilities are tied to personality value meaning you have to use legal abilities. ti told me to only put 4-7 cause the other bh gens are strange, but if a playerbase forms i'm open to making posts in the future

edit: also feel free to discuss gens 1-3 here
Upon reviewing this, it seems very similar to Gen 4, based on nearly each instance saying Gen III and IV, and even in the direct table.
https://m.bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Personality_value

This in depth data review addresses the final binary code. So Gen IV likely means Gen III is okay.

In either case, couldn't you hack the ability regardless?

If so, then BH accepts it as a hackable mechanic.

Thanks for your honest reply and for addressing this with TI, and encouraging posts here. I appreciate your support, of Gens 1-3 here.
 
Last edited:

cityscapes

Take care of yourself.
is a Community Contributor
Celesteela @ Safety Goggles
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moongeist Beam
- Spikes
- Haze
- Topsy-Turvy

gen 7 noms. not sure whos running the vr, am i the only one in charge of these or should i be forming a council? either way lemme just clarify that these arent official yet and just represent a first opinion

:mewtwo-mega-x: down to a: mmx really struggles to get openings vs offense and has lots of pretty terrible matchups vs common mons like mmy, gar, gira, and xern. most teams have more than enough counterplay for this mon and it really struggles to get things done. s just feels way too high for this.
:xerneas: up to s: extremely splashable pokemon that finds itself on nearly all teams due to how insanely customizable it is. has both "glue" sets (prank, pixilate, less aggressive ph) and sets that can be built around (teravolt, aggressive ph, mg) which are all super viable. great utility both defensively and offensively, which are expanded further upon by the best sets. overall incredible pokemon and i support a rise
:diancie-mega: down to a-: diancie is pretty frail, gets a lot done but it's pretty reliant on passive teammates to work well. hazards on it further compounds this issue cause you need a bounce teammate that's kept healthy. this pokemon works only on whiff-punish teams with momentum-seeking defensive cores or heavier offense teams that use things like explosion and sash mg, and neither of these are super reliable.
:yveltal: up to a-: subpar mnm main
:kangaskhan: down to b: no defensive utility outside of like specs gar, loses to chip and ability suppression, and needs excessive support to actually get things done cause you can't switch into anything. it's decent against the more passive teams but those are falling out of favor and even then it doesn't feel very reliable.
:slowbro-mega: down to b-: its hard to justify using this mon when it loses so hard to gar/xern while not even offering gira's ability to cover ogre and especially mmy. you dont need a dedicated mmx switchin in this meta so it just feels like a mediocre slow uturner that loses to hazards.
:greninja-ash: up to b-: pretty versatile between sf/specs/band, great speed tier, pretty good defensive utility, doesnt hard lose to xern. feels a bit higher than the rest of c.
:hoopa-unbound: :palkia: :xurkitree: down to d: these are just bad and don't get used. i had the idea for ph qd xurk so i might play around w that but all of these have numerous issues and lack the flexibility to get around them.

:suicune: :lugia: up to c: these guys are cool and unfortunately didnt make it thru the final vr update. both have been featured on a successful shed team and ive used them on other teams as well. im a big fan of the spin/smash/recover/boomburst modest sky plate lugia, it can give weakened offense teams a lot of trouble while also doing general lugia things, and is really easy to imposter proof. suicune is an incredible midground pokemon and pairs excellently with good mons like xern and pdon; the physical bulk makes such a big difference in beating the things you want to beat. lugia is just a really reliable xern counter and also beats mmx.
:zeraora: up to d: i believe this is widely seen as the best veil setter? i think it should be ranked at least for that. its also prob the least fragile mon faster than mmy (not counting aero here cause he has weaknesses)
:reshiram: up to d: the turboblaze leftovers set from gen 8 has proven to be pretty solid in gen 7 as well, cool spikes setter that annoys everyone. also has dangerous, if cheesy, setup sets that are pretty decent at outright winning games. much better pokemon with the introduction of modern era xern counterplay.
:tapu-lele: up to d: im not super confident on this nom but this team was scary if not consistent. i feel like lele builds have potential, although this team is the only evidence we have of that rn so again i don't want to be too hasty here.

discussion appreciated
 
Celesteela @ Safety Goggles
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moongeist Beam
- Spikes
- Haze
- Topsy-Turvy

gen 7 noms. not sure whos running the vr, am i the only one in charge of these or should i be forming a council? either way lemme just clarify that these arent official yet and just represent a first opinion

:mewtwo-mega-x: down to a: mmx really struggles to get openings vs offense and has lots of pretty terrible matchups vs common mons like mmy, gar, gira, and xern. most teams have more than enough counterplay for this mon and it really struggles to get things done. s just feels way too high for this.
:xerneas: up to s: extremely splashable pokemon that finds itself on nearly all teams due to how insanely customizable it is. has both "glue" sets (prank, pixilate, less aggressive ph) and sets that can be built around (teravolt, aggressive ph, mg) which are all super viable. great utility both defensively and offensively, which are expanded further upon by the best sets. overall incredible pokemon and i support a rise
:diancie-mega: down to a-: diancie is pretty frail, gets a lot done but it's pretty reliant on passive teammates to work well. hazards on it further compounds this issue cause you need a bounce teammate that's kept healthy. this pokemon works only on whiff-punish teams with momentum-seeking defensive cores or heavier offense teams that use things like explosion and sash mg, and neither of these are super reliable.
:yveltal: up to a-: subpar mnm main
:kangaskhan: down to b: no defensive utility outside of like specs gar, loses to chip and ability suppression, and needs excessive support to actually get things done cause you can't switch into anything. it's decent against the more passive teams but those are falling out of favor and even then it doesn't feel very reliable.
:slowbro-mega: down to b-: its hard to justify using this mon when it loses so hard to gar/xern while not even offering gira's ability to cover ogre and especially mmy. you dont need a dedicated mmx switchin in this meta so it just feels like a mediocre slow uturner that loses to hazards.
:greninja-ash: up to b-: pretty versatile between sf/specs/band, great speed tier, pretty good defensive utility, doesnt hard lose to xern. feels a bit higher than the rest of c.
:hoopa-unbound: :palkia: :xurkitree: down to d: these are just bad and don't get used. i had the idea for ph qd xurk so i might play around w that but all of these have numerous issues and lack the flexibility to get around them.

:suicune: :lugia: up to c: these guys are cool and unfortunately didnt make it thru the final vr update. both have been featured on a successful shed team and ive used them on other teams as well. im a big fan of the spin/smash/recover/boomburst modest sky plate lugia, it can give weakened offense teams a lot of trouble while also doing general lugia things, and is really easy to imposter proof. suicune is an incredible midground pokemon and pairs excellently with good mons like xern and pdon; the physical bulk makes such a big difference in beating the things you want to beat. lugia is just a really reliable xern counter and also beats mmx.
:zeraora: up to d: i believe this is widely seen as the best veil setter? i think it should be ranked at least for that. its also prob the least fragile mon faster than mmy (not counting aero here cause he has weaknesses)
:reshiram: up to d: the turboblaze leftovers set from gen 8 has proven to be pretty solid in gen 7 as well, cool spikes setter that annoys everyone. also has dangerous, if cheesy, setup sets that are pretty decent at outright winning games. much better pokemon with the introduction of modern era xern counterplay.
:tapu-lele: up to d: im not super confident on this nom but this team was scary if not consistent. i feel like lele builds have potential, although this team is the only evidence we have of that rn so again i don't want to be too hasty here.

discussion appreciated
I am so happy for Lugia, and Ash-Greninja getting the recognition they deserve.

I could also see Stored Power going over Rapid Spin on Lugia and Improofing with Tyranitar. To better Improof, you could even switch Boomburst to Judgement and then use Adaptability which makes it almost as strong as -ate Boomburst, while boosting its other STAB (and weakening Imposter), since you are using the Sky Plate anyways.

I know you lose -ate Rapid Spin, but I feel you probably want a Pokemon not weak to Stealth Rock in the first place, to switch in and remove it.

Here is a Boomburst Vs Judgment comparison:

+2 252+ SpA Sky Plate Aerilate Lugia Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Arceus: 391-462 (88 - 104%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

+2 252+ SpA Sky Plate Adaptability Lugia Judgment vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Arceus: 310-366 (69.8 - 82.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252+ SpA Adaptability Lugia Stored Power (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Arceus: 362-428 (81.5 - 96.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Tyranitar pairs really nicely on a Lugia team because they cover eachothers weaknesses, and can serve different roles that compliment eachother.

P.S. Ransei, are you going to make a Pure Hackmons version? Old Gens unite! Any Classic Hackmons versions?

#L’Oréal
 
Celesteela @ Safety Goggles
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moongeist Beam
- Spikes
- Haze
- Topsy-Turvy
nooooooooooooooooooooo

gen 7 noms. not sure whos running the vr, am i the only one in charge of these or should i be forming a council? either way lemme just clarify that these arent official yet and just represent a first opinion

:mewtwo-mega-x: down to a: mmx really struggles to get openings vs offense and has lots of pretty terrible matchups vs common mons like mmy, gar, gira, and xern. most teams have more than enough counterplay for this mon and it really struggles to get things done. s just feels way too high for this.
:xerneas: up to s: extremely splashable pokemon that finds itself on nearly all teams due to how insanely customizable it is. has both "glue" sets (prank, pixilate, less aggressive ph) and sets that can be built around (teravolt, aggressive ph, mg) which are all super viable. great utility both defensively and offensively, which are expanded further upon by the best sets. overall incredible pokemon and i support a rise
:diancie-mega: down to a-: diancie is pretty frail, gets a lot done but it's pretty reliant on passive teammates to work well. hazards on it further compounds this issue cause you need a bounce teammate that's kept healthy. this pokemon works only on whiff-punish teams with momentum-seeking defensive cores or heavier offense teams that use things like explosion and sash mg, and neither of these are super reliable.
:yveltal: up to a-: subpar mnm main
:kangaskhan: down to b: no defensive utility outside of like specs gar, loses to chip and ability suppression, and needs excessive support to actually get things done cause you can't switch into anything. it's decent against the more passive teams but those are falling out of favor and even then it doesn't feel very reliable.
:slowbro-mega: down to b-: its hard to justify using this mon when it loses so hard to gar/xern while not even offering gira's ability to cover ogre and especially mmy. you dont need a dedicated mmx switchin in this meta so it just feels like a mediocre slow uturner that loses to hazards.
:greninja-ash: up to b-: pretty versatile between sf/specs/band, great speed tier, pretty good defensive utility, doesnt hard lose to xern. feels a bit higher than the rest of c.
:hoopa-unbound: :palkia: :xurkitree: down to d: these are just bad and don't get used. i had the idea for ph qd xurk so i might play around w that but all of these have numerous issues and lack the flexibility to get around them.

:suicune: :lugia: up to c: these guys are cool and unfortunately didnt make it thru the final vr update. both have been featured on a successful shed team and ive used them on other teams as well. im a big fan of the spin/smash/recover/boomburst modest sky plate lugia, it can give weakened offense teams a lot of trouble while also doing general lugia things, and is really easy to imposter proof. suicune is an incredible midground pokemon and pairs excellently with good mons like xern and pdon; the physical bulk makes such a big difference in beating the things you want to beat. lugia is just a really reliable xern counter and also beats mmx.
:zeraora: up to d: i believe this is widely seen as the best veil setter? i think it should be ranked at least for that. its also prob the least fragile mon faster than mmy (not counting aero here cause he has weaknesses)
:reshiram: up to d: the turboblaze leftovers set from gen 8 has proven to be pretty solid in gen 7 as well, cool spikes setter that annoys everyone. also has dangerous, if cheesy, setup sets that are pretty decent at outright winning games. much better pokemon with the introduction of modern era xern counterplay.
:tapu-lele: up to d: im not super confident on this nom but this team was scary if not consistent. i feel like lele builds have potential, although this team is the only evidence we have of that rn so again i don't want to be too hasty here.

discussion appreciated
:mewtwo-mega-x:: Agree, lately it feels like it competes more and more with MMY (mostly mixed MG) who outspeeds other MMX and Gengar-Mega while hitting similar targets. MMX is still good with TC and Technician/Sniper, though.
:xerneas:: Agree, it's such a versatile mon. I think PH sets can be separated into three categories: utility (no setup or QD + 2 utililty moves), offensive (QD), and aggressive (Smash).
(i realized that i mostly agree with these opinions so ill just list some of my own opinions)

Rises:
:yveltal:: I think that this mon can go higher, to A - it's in a similar boat with Xerneas, the same offensive/defensive split it has makes it just as versatile (defensive: Prankster, Corrosion, FC is niche but somewhat viable; mix: PH, Spin Aerilate; offensive: Triage, Explosion Aerilate, Adaptability, TC, MG). It's also a very solid check to Gengar, not being weak to Fighting like Tyranitar and Arceus while actually resisting its STAB and hitting it super-effectively unlike Kyogre. It suffers from an SR and Electric/Ice weakness but that's about it.

:magearna:: Not sure why this isn't higher. It's a Steel type that can take a hit from MMX and actually OHKO it back, and is much more versatile than its other Steel wall companions in Magic Bounce, Pixilate, and Regenerator. I've found Flash Fire to be effective as well (particularly to cteam Groudon), and Levitate is a more niche but still viable set to evade Ground-type coverage, which feels like the most common type right now. I'd put it in B+.

:arceus:: Solid check to Gengar and special PH attackers. Its best set is probably PH with Facade/Spectral Thief/Spiky Shield/Filler (could be Taunt, Defog, hazards). Niche defensive sets like Regenvest and Unaware are also useable. I'd put it in B.

:scizor-mega:: With Fur Coat, it's a great check to MMX and fairly solid one to MMY and Xerneas, and has a lot going for it (Steel that isn't weak to Ground, U-Turn STAB, not passive, pretty slow). Its weakness to Fire is somewhat of a benefit because that makes it easier to pressure when Imposter copies it, but its special bulk, while enough to check resists, is pretty bad against neutral hits. I'd raise it to C, maybe even B-.

Drops:
:necrozma-dusk-mane:: I've never seen this lately, and for good reason: offensive sets are not very threatening (setup) or are outclassed by Kartana (Choice Band), while defensive sets are either momentum sinks (trapping FC) or too easily taken advantage of by Imposter (Regenvest, pivoting FC if that's a thing). I'd put it in B, because at least it has offensive presence unlike Aegislash.

:celesteela:: This mon is as viable as Regigigas and Kyu-B? It's super passive and doesn't really have much going for it over Magearna other than a Ground immunity (but most attackers with a Ground attack also have something to hit Celesteela anyway so it doesn't matter all that much). Other than with niche sets like Triage or whatever tf SL put at the top of his post it's pretty unappealing. I'd put it with Aegislash in B-.

:audino-mega:: I don't know what this mon does other than be a stat stick. On paper it seems good, but in practice it's terribly passive and in that regard overshadowed by Xerneas (as a Fairy), Magearna (as a Magic Bouncer), and Xerneas/Arceus (as a PH user). The only niche I see it having is being an Unaware user to wall Triage (because Triage sucks), but that's about it. I'd drop it to B-.

I could also see Stored Power going over Rapid Spin on Lugia and Improofing with Tyranitar. To better Improof, you could even switch Boomburst to Judgement and then use Adaptability which makes it almost as strong as -ate Boomburst, while boosting its other STAB (and weakening Imposter), since you are using the Sky Plate anyways.

I know you lose -ate Rapid Spin, but I feel you probably want a Pokemon not weak to Stealth Rock in the first place, to switch in and remove it.
Lugia is primarily a defensive mon so it has the room and the bulk to use Rapid Spin; unblockable Rapid Spin is Aerilate Lugia's primary niche, Shell Smash + Boomburst helps it heavily pressure offense but is its secondary niche. If you want a strong Shell Smasher then choosing a 90 SpA mon is probably the wrong choice. If you really need an offensive setup sweeper that can come in on MMX and Xerneas then you could use something like Gengar-Mega.
 
nooooooooooooooooooooo



:mewtwo-mega-x:: Agree, lately it feels like it competes more and more with MMY (mostly mixed MG) who outspeeds other MMX and Gengar-Mega while hitting similar targets. MMX is still good with TC and Technician/Sniper, though.
:xerneas:: Agree, it's such a versatile mon. I think PH sets can be separated into three categories: utility (no setup or QD + 2 utililty moves), offensive (QD), and aggressive (Smash).
(i realized that i mostly agree with these opinions so ill just list some of my own opinions)

Rises:
:yveltal:: I think that this mon can go higher, to A - it's in a similar boat with Xerneas, the same offensive/defensive split it has makes it just as versatile (defensive: Prankster, Corrosion, FC is niche but somewhat viable; mix: PH, Spin Aerilate; offensive: Triage, Explosion Aerilate, Adaptability, TC, MG). It's also a very solid check to Gengar, not being weak to Fighting like Tyranitar and Arceus while actually resisting its STAB and hitting it super-effectively unlike Kyogre. It suffers from an SR and Electric/Ice weakness but that's about it.

:magearna:: Not sure why this isn't higher. It's a Steel type that can take a hit from MMX and actually OHKO it back, and is much more versatile than its other Steel wall companions in Magic Bounce, Pixilate, and Regenerator. I've found Flash Fire to be effective as well (particularly to cteam Groudon), and Levitate is a more niche but still viable set to evade Ground-type coverage, which feels like the most common type right now. I'd put it in B+.

:arceus:: Solid check to Gengar and special PH attackers. Its best set is probably PH with Facade/Spectral Thief/Spiky Shield/Filler (could be Taunt, Defog, hazards). Niche defensive sets like Regenvest and Unaware are also useable. I'd put it in B.

:scizor-mega:: With Fur Coat, it's a great check to MMX and fairly solid one to MMY and Xerneas, and has a lot going for it (Steel that isn't weak to Ground, U-Turn STAB, not passive, pretty slow). Its weakness to Fire is somewhat of a benefit because that makes it easier to pressure when Imposter copies it, but its special bulk, while enough to check resists, is pretty bad against neutral hits. I'd raise it to C, maybe even B-.

Drops:
:necrozma-dusk-mane:: I've never seen this lately, and for good reason: offensive sets are not very threatening (setup) or are outclassed by Kartana (Choice Band), while defensive sets are either momentum sinks (trapping FC) or too easily taken advantage of by Imposter (Regenvest, pivoting FC if that's a thing). I'd put it in B, because at least it has offensive presence unlike Aegislash.

:celesteela:: This mon is as viable as Regigigas and Kyu-B? It's super passive and doesn't really have much going for it over Magearna other than a Ground immunity (but most attackers with a Ground attack also have something to hit Celesteela anyway so it doesn't matter all that much). Other than with niche sets like Triage or whatever tf SL put at the top of his post it's pretty unappealing. I'd put it with Aegislash in B-.

:audino-mega:: I don't know what this mon does other than be a stat stick. On paper it seems good, but in practice it's terribly passive and in that regard overshadowed by Xerneas (as a Fairy), Magearna (as a Magic Bouncer), and Xerneas/Arceus (as a PH user). The only niche I see it having is being an Unaware user to wall Triage (because Triage sucks), but that's about it. I'd drop it to B-.


Lugia is primarily a defensive mon so it has the room and the bulk to use Rapid Spin; unblockable Rapid Spin is Aerilate Lugia's primary niche, Shell Smash + Boomburst helps it heavily pressure offense but is its secondary niche. If you want a strong Shell Smasher then choosing a 90 SpA mon is probably the wrong choice. If you really need an offensive setup sweeper that can come in on MMX and Xerneas then you could use something like Gengar-Mega.
Thank you for being helpful. Although I would not say Gengar-Mega can switch into MMX with Photon Geyser, or Xerneas' Earth Power (or if it uses Quiver Dance on your Gengar-Mega switch in).

MMX and Gengar-Mega have the same speed tier, so even if you slow pivoted it in, it could go their way during a Speed tie.

In either case, thanks anyway. :)
 
Gen 7:

After discussing it with Gurpreet Patel (Sent you a Friend Request) I have decided to Nom Heatran to D rank.

The niche of this set, is that it covers so many issues other Shell Smashers have:

It resists all relevant priority, is Imposterproof, lures in its typical checks for the KO, threatens common Prankster Hazers, yet it is slow and bulky enough to take a hit before it Shell Smashes, while being fast enough to outspeed the metagame after it Shell Smashes.

Heatran @ Earth Plate
Ability: Pixilate / Refrigerate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Brave Nature
- Shell Smash
- Boomburst
- Judgment
- Sunsteel Strike / Bolt Strike

KOs Imposter via Earth Plate Judgement, and threatens the majority of the metagame, period:

+2 252 SpA Pixilate Heatran Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Giratina: 510-600 (101.1 - 119%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 SpA Pixilate Heatran Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Zygarde-Complete: 598-704 (94 - 110.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252 SpA Pixilate Heatran Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Yveltal: 356-420 (78 - 92.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
4th moveslot: (Both moves KO Aerodactyl-Mega after a Shell Smash).

Sunsteel Strike -
+2 252+ Atk Imposter Sunsteel Strike vs. -1 252 HP / 252 Def Heatran: 79-93 (20.4 - 24%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
KOs Unaware / Soundproof Audino-Mega, Shedinja, Xerneas, Kyurem-W & Kyurem-B (helpful if using Refrigerate), and KOs Diancie-Mega pre-setup.

+2 252+ Atk Heatran Sunsteel Strike vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Audino-Mega: 374-444 (91.2 - 108.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252+ Atk Heatran Sunsteel Strike vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Kyurem-White: 474-558 (104.4 - 122.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Heatran Sunsteel Strike vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Kyurem-Black: 440-518 (96.9 - 114%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

+2 252 Atk Heatran Sunsteel Strike vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Xerneas: 416-492 (91.2 - 107.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Bolt Strike-
+2 252+ Atk Heatran Bolt Strike vs. -1 252 HP / 252 Def Heatran: 275-324 (71.2 - 83.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

KOs Ho-Oh, Gyarados-Mega (for Refrigerate sets) Kyogre-Primal, Celesteela, and Soundproof Yveltal. Lastly, it has more Synergistic coverage with Refrigerate.
+2 252+ Atk Heatran Bolt Strike vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Ho-Oh: 408-482 (98 - 115.8%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Heatran Bolt Strike vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Gyarados-Mega: 360-424 (91.3 - 107.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252+ Atk Heatran Bolt Strike vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Kyogre-Primal: 408-482 (100.9 - 119.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Heatran Bolt Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Celesteela: 340-402 (85.4 - 101%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252+ Atk Heatran Bolt Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Yveltal: 360-424 (78.9 - 92.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

While I did use a Doom Desire variant, here is a replay from when BH 7 was still playable on the Ladder:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-965905590
 
Last edited:
:mewtwo-mega-x: I'm ok with a drop to either A+ or A
:xerneas: No comment, I recognize how good and splashable it is but I'm not super convinced that it is a tier above all the other A+ mons.
:diancie-mega: Agree
:yveltal: Agree with acml
:kangaskhan-mega: Agree, there are other breakers that do around the same work while pulling their weight in many other matchups.
:slowbro-mega: Agree
:greninja-ash: Agree, 132 speed tier is huge and its a solid breaker.
:hoopa-unbound::xurkitree: Agree
:palkia: I feel like this is still ok as its like offensive Pogre but it breaks past Dragons so much easier.
:lugia::zeraora: Agree
Others IDK never used.
:magearna::arceus: Agree
:scizor-mega: Agree, MegaZor + Plume Ho-Oh is a solid core that is pretty splashable. Not to mention that MegaZor is one of the few mons that can check MegaChomp (discourage blades teammate required).
:audino-mega::celesteela: Agree
:necrozma-dusk-mane: I disagree but I would like to know why you think its Trapping defensive sets are momentum sinks.

Own noms:
:gengar-mega: S, the single most defining mon on Offense and is incredibly splashable on teams that need some strong offensive presence while being improof. It can pretty much break every single check to it with a viable set. Also can improof a couple of strong offensive mons too which is super good for role compression.
:ho-oh: B+, single best Xern check probably and checks other stuff too.
:regigigas: Rise? Like people said its underexplored and its not easy to punish rn. Soft checks other PH specials, ghost immunity, and soft checks certain mmy as well. Really appreciates Zyg usage over Tina too.
:rayquaza: C, Scarf Download is a great set.
 
:mewtwo-mega-x: I'm ok with a drop to either A+ or A
:xerneas: No comment, I recognize how good and splashable it is but I'm not super convinced that it is a tier above all the other A+ mons.
:diancie-mega: Agree
:yveltal: Agree with acml
:kangaskhan-mega: Agree, there are other breakers that do around the same work while pulling their weight in many other matchups.
:slowbro-mega: Agree
:greninja-ash: Agree, 132 speed tier is huge and its a solid breaker.
:hoopa-unbound::xurkitree: Agree
:palkia: I feel like this is still ok as its like offensive Pogre but it breaks past Dragons so much easier.
:lugia::zeraora: Agree
Others IDK never used.
:magearna::arceus: Agree
:scizor-mega: Agree, MegaZor + Plume Ho-Oh is a solid core that is pretty splashable. Not to mention that MegaZor is one of the few mons that can check MegaChomp (discourage blades teammate required).
:audino-mega::celesteela: Agree
:necrozma-dusk-mane: I disagree but I would like to know why you think its Trapping defensive sets are momentum sinks.

Own noms:
:gengar-mega: S, the single most defining mon on Offense and is incredibly splashable on teams that need some strong offensive presence while being improof. It can pretty much break every single check to it with a viable set. Also can improof a couple of strong offensive mons too which is super good for role compression.
:ho-oh: B+, single best Xern check probably and checks other stuff too.
:regigigas: Rise? Like people said its underexplored and its not easy to punish rn. Soft checks other PH specials, ghost immunity, and soft checks certain mmy as well. Really appreciates Zyg usage over Tina too.
:rayquaza: C, Scarf Download is a great set.
What about Refrigerate Kyogre-Primal, over Palkia?

I feel like it would better break past Dragons because it doesn’t fear STAB Dragon moves, and it’s Boomburst is literally stronger in base power than even a STAB Clanging Scales.

Further, Kyogre-Primal still resists it’s own coverage, so Imposter cannot get a kick out of your Dragon coverage, whereas Palkia needs Soundproof, or Judgment Draco Plate to not die to Imposter.

Kyogre’s superior stats, and lack of weakness to Fairy also means it isn’t forced out by Xerneas, nor the faster Diancie-Mega.

I like Palkia, but if you were referring to the Specs Adaptability set, you may as well use Kyogre-Primal, since nothing is immune to Ice, so they cannot just switch in a Fairy-type.

With 168 base power surpassing even Steam Eruption, its like Kyogre-Primal has STAB Ice, without the type drawback.

However, I understand that Kyurem-Black/White, Reshiram, and Palkia itself are not weak to Ice, however Palkia is a rare sight.

Without Soundproof, Kyurem-White KOs Palkia regardless, so it comes down to Speed, meaning you cannot risk a +SpA nature on Palkia, in order to outrun Kyurem-W, Black, etc.

To give some perspective, unless Palkia is using Adaptability, a Kyogre-Primal with Technician Frost Breath is on par with Palkia’s Clanging Scales, enabling it to use other moves like Water Shuriken for priority:

252+ SpA Life Orb Technician Kyogre-Primal Frost Breath vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Giratina on a critical hit: 377-445 (74.8 - 88.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Life Orb Palkia Clanging Scales vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Giratina: 398-471 (78.9 - 93.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

If using Palkia with Specs Adaptability, then Specs Boomburst on Kyogre-Primal hits nearly as hard.

Further, Boomburst can break RegenVest Yveltal after Stealth Rock, as well as many dedicated switch ins like Ferrothorn.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Refrigerate Kyogre-Primal Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Arceus: 268-316 (60.3 - 71.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Palkia Clanging Scales vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Arceus: 306-362 (68.9 - 81.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

But if Palkia is meant to outspeed Kyurem-W/B, Reshiram, etc. and not get hit 1HKOed by their STAB, then it is really forced to run a +Speed.

252 SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Palkia Clanging Scales vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Arceus: 278-328 (62.6 - 73.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth

Now, only a mere 2.7% points more damage than Kyogre-Primal, while Kyogre-P doesn’t fear them at all, beyond Bolt Strike Kyurem-Black.

TLDR: Why not just Kyogre-Primal?
You can also run Pixelate to still KO Yveltal, and hit Palkia, as well as both Kyurems for the KO, but then you are not resistant to Imposter.

In either case, it can do what Palkia does without being weak to Dragon coverage, and it’s non-Dragon/Water Attacks hit harder since Palkia’s reliance on Adaptability doesn’t boost its other coverage moves.

Kyogre-Primal @ Choice Specs
Ability: Pixilate / Refrigerate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Steam Eruption / Water Spout
- Boomburst
- Blue Flare / Volt Switch
- Moongeist Beam
 
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Gen 6 BH - Gale Wings enables Flying moves to go first at any HP, which really benefits Roost as well as Judgment.

Rayquaza-Mega @ Sky Plate
Ability: Gale Wings
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Rash Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 SpD
- Judgment
- Tail Glow
- Earth Power
- Roost / Blue Flare*

*Blue Flare for Levitating Steels.

While Oblivion Wing is the standard set, I find that Improofing without reliance on Substitute enables Rayquaza to hit harder, and always go first, while Imposter will be KOed with minor chip damage.

+3 252+ SpA Sky Plate Rayquaza-Mega Judgment vs. 252 HP / 0- SpD Eviolite Chansey: 588-693 (83.5 - 98.4%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

While you could opt for Max HP, the issue becomes outspeeding slower dragons like Dialga, who are KOed by Earth Power.

Keep in mind that since there is a 510 EV limits, you are not sacrificing as much as you would in other generations. You are simply opting for lower SpD so you can KO Imposter with a STAB Tail Glow Judgment, while Imposter has no Flying STAB due to lack of Sky Plate.

This set can be used as an alternative to Aerilate, considering there is no Ice Scales option, and boosting Judgment by x 2.5 really allows it to break Pokemon that a weaker Extreme Speed or Oblivion Wing could not.

This is mostly due to the EV limit, preventing all Pokemon from maxing both their Defenses along with HP, and nets it KOs it wouldn’t normally achieve in other generations (I.e. doing just fine without Blue Flare for Steels), still, even with Max EVs on some of the premier SpD walls of the generation, they would rely on Unaware to not get KO’d

+3 252+ SpA Rayquaza-Mega Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Registeel: 372-438 (102.1 - 120.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+3 252+ SpA Sky Plate Rayquaza-Mega Judgment vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Lugia: 364-429 (87.5 - 103.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

+3 252+ SpA Sky Plate Rayquaza-Mega Judgment vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Cresselia: 412-486 (92.7 - 109.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Ultimately, if Rayquaza can KO these Pokemon, not much else stands in it’s way thanks to Celesteela not existing yet, and the traditionally offensive Mega Aerodactyl getting KO’d:

+3 252+ SpA Sky Plate Rayquaza-Mega Judgment vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Aerodactyl-Mega: 358-422 (118.9 - 140.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Lastly, due to max Speed, you still outspeed even Prankster Haze Lugia, are immune to Nature Power -> Earthquake, and are ultimately blocked just by Unaware, and are only outsped by Fake Speed, since Triage didn’t exist then.
 
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:necrozma-dusk-mane: I disagree but I would like to know why you think its Trapping defensive sets are momentum sinks.
Most of the time NDM just kinda sits there and often has to use recovery after getting hit by a physical attack, so it's easy for the opponent to just switch in something to beat it. It's like Melmetal in Gen 8 but without an Ice Scales partner to fall back on and with 100% more Imposter to dissuade using pivoting.
Own noms:
:gengar-mega: S, the single most defining mon on Offense and is incredibly splashable on teams that need some strong offensive presence while being improof. It can pretty much break every single check to it with a viable set. Also can improof a couple of strong offensive mons too which is super good for role compression.
While it's very useable on hyper offense, I never really have room for it in bulkier offense teams mostly because it doesn't have much bulk and no room for recovery (I've used PH Giratina-O, though, shoutout to Chazm for that set). I disagree on this nom because I don't see Gengar on the same level as Xerneas - the latter can run any kind of role, from defensive to utility to offensive, while the former has two roles: setup and choice item. I think it's fine in the A+ ranking.
:ho-oh: B+, single best Xern check probably and checks other stuff too.
Agree with this nom, but the best Xerneas counter would probably be FF Venusaur-Mega - it resists Electric and Water while taking neutral from Ground.
:regigigas: Rise? Like people said its underexplored and its not easy to punish rn. Soft checks other PH specials, ghost immunity, and soft checks certain mmy as well. Really appreciates Zyg usage over Tina too.
I'm not sure about that, there is also the rise of Strength Sap users like Xerneas (a PH user Regi can't check) and Groudon, plus Magearna has risen over the other Steel-types. Normalize is a potent set, though.
:rayquaza: C, Scarf Download is a great set.
Haven't tried this so I can't say.

couple other noms:
:zekrom: to B: no way this is as viable as aegislash lol, this rank was probably made only keeping smash (galvanize, adaptability) and band sets in mind when there are other cool sets like Adapt/PH STAB + spikes or SF
:registeel: to B+: passive mfer, magearna may not have the bulk but at least it isn't complete setup bait
 
I think Necrozma-Ultra should be promoted to B- Rank.

Reasoning: With the ban of Rayquaza-Mega, there opened up a huge hole in the role for fast Dragon-type that could legit mix sweep.

While lacking the raw power of a STAB -ate move, Necrozma didn’t possess a crippling Stealth Rock weakness, and instead packed STAB Photon Geyser, allowing it to simultaneously bypass Unaware, and hit from its equally powerful Atk stat, without resorting to Psystrike to bypass RegenVest.

See posts for sets like these:
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/creative-and-underrated-sets.3592203/page-13#post-8154217

Necrozma-Ultra @ Life Orb / Ultranecrozium Z
Ability: Adaptability
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Naughty Nature
- Photon Geyser
- V-Create
- Clanging Scales
- Shell Smash / Filler Coverage Move

With the ability to wallbreak pre-set up, and decimate it’s foes with a spare moveslot for added coverage, Necrozma-Ultra doesn't just substitute for Raquaza-Mega, it carves it’s own niche, and can even resort to its signature Z-Move for the absolute nuke, that when paired with Adaptability, becomes 400 base power and ignores all abilities, including Fur Coat.

Lastly, seeing it in the same category of Steelix-Mega, Sabeleye-Mega, Swampert-Mega, Metagross-Mega, and Tapu-Fini is a literal underestimation of what Necrozma-Ultra brings to the table.

Necrozma-Ultra has the stats, STAB, Z-move, and unpredictability to at least compare to Zekrom, Solgaleo, and Blaziken-Mega - not limiting itself to one sided offense.

Overall, it’s better than its C-tank counterparts, and deserves a place just a little higher since it’s biggest rival for a mixed Dragon wall breaker got banned. Sorry, Rayquaza-Base just doesn’t cut it.
 
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I think Necrozma-Ultra should be promoted to B- Rank.

Reasoning: With the ban of Rayquaza-Mega, there opened up a huge hole in the role for fast Dragon-type that could legit mix sweep.
Rayquaza-Mega's main STAB was Flying - its three broken sets (TC, Aerilate, Triage) all aimed to boost its Flying-type attacks (Dragon Ascent, Oblivion Wing, Boomburst). Dragon STAB is the icing on the cake to hit Giratina and Zygarde, sure, but saying Rayquaza was used for being a Dragon-type isn't very accurate.

Looking at some stats, Oblivion Wing was used on 42% of Rayquaza sets, Boomburst 35%, Extreme Speed 26%, and Dragon Ascent 14%. Boomburst is used more often than all of its Dragon attacks combined (Draco Meteor at 13%, Dragon Hammer at 8%, Core Enforcer at 6%, Clanging Scales at 3%, and Revelation Dance at 1%), so it's safe to say that Rayquaza-Mega is primarily a Flying-type breaker. For this reason, it's not very valid to compare Rayquaza and Necrozma-Ultra.

While lacking the raw power of a STAB -ate move, Necrozma didn’t possess a crippling Stealth Rock weakness, and instead packed STAB Photon Geyser, allowing it to simultaneously bypass Unaware, and hit from its equally powerful Atk stat, without resorting to Psystrike to bypass RegenVest.
Unaware was never a good option in the first place, only being used to improof stuff like Triage or Shell Smash users because the ability becomes deadweight against teams who rely on choiced breakers or otherwise don't use setup (which is quite the percentage). Prankster, on the other hand, is useful for scouting sets since you can switch into an attack and recover quickly, and one can build their team to have resistances to common setup mons in case their Prankster mon doesn't have a favorable matchup.

With the ability to wallbreak pre-set up, and decimate it’s foes with a spare moveslot for added coverage, Necrozma-Ultra doesn't just substitute for Raquaza-Mega, it carves it’s own niche, and can even resort to its signature Z-Move for the absolute nuke, that when paired with Adaptability, becomes 400 base power and ignores all abilities, including Fur Coat.

Lastly, seeing it in the same category of Steelix-Mega, Sabeleye-Mega, Swampert-Mega, Metagross-Mega, and Tapu-Fini is a literal underestimation of what Necrozma-Ultra brings to the table.
The two had two entirely different niches in the first place: as I've pointed out, Rayquaza-Mega is a Flying-type attacker while Necrozma-Ultra is a Psychic and Dragon-type attacker.

I'd say Necrozma-Ultra is more like a competitor to Mewtwo-Mega-Y, trading Speed and Special Attack for a better defensive typing, more ability to threaten Giratina and Zygarde (the use is pretty debatable, considering sets that aren't Regenvest get 2HKOd by MMY's Fairy or Ice coverage on most of its sets), and more ability to go mixed (though this is very debatable looking at MMY's SF and MG mixed sets). Its awkward speed tier hurts its viability - MMY has no problem being against MMX or Gengar, while Necrozma-Ultra is forced out.

I think being in the same rank as Steelix-Mega, Sableye-Mega, Swampert-Mega, Metagross-Mega, and Tapu Fini fits it pretty well, considering they are situational substitutes for more consistent mons (Magearna/Registeel, Giratina, Kyogre-Primal/Groudon-Primal, Necrozma-Dusk-Mane, and Kyogre-Primal/Xerneas respectively).

gen 7 noms. not sure whos running the vr, am i the only one in charge of these or should i be forming a council?
Do you have the answer to this yet?
 
Rayquaza-Mega's main STAB was Flying - its three broken sets (TC, Aerilate, Triage) all aimed to boost its Flying-type attacks (Dragon Ascent, Oblivion Wing, Boomburst). Dragon STAB is the icing on the cake to hit Giratina and Zygarde, sure, but saying Rayquaza was used for being a Dragon-type isn't very accurate.

Looking at some stats, Oblivion Wing was used on 42% of Rayquaza sets, Boomburst 35%, Extreme Speed 26%, and Dragon Ascent 14%. Boomburst is used more often than all of its Dragon attacks combined (Draco Meteor at 13%, Dragon Hammer at 8%, Core Enforcer at 6%, Clanging Scales at 3%, and Revelation Dance at 1%), so it's safe to say that Rayquaza-Mega is primarily a Flying-type breaker. For this reason, it's not very valid to compare Rayquaza and Necrozma-Ultra.
Rayquaza-Mega was never just another Flying-type, it relied on both of its STABs to also fill in the Dragon-type, so there would be less need for other "super effective against Dragon"-coverage on your team. This meant you wouldn't need to worry about using Garchomp-Mega, or Reshiram, since Rayquaza could still pack their Dragon moves, plus their secondary STAB as anti-Steel coverage, while maintaining its role as a Flying type.

As an example of using its Dragon STAB for coverage: If you chose -ate Rayquaza-Mega then you didn’t really need Diancie-Mega, since it’s STAB covered what Diancie-Mega did - priority Flying hit MMX, and Dragon handled Dragons. Picking another Flying-type like Charizard-Mega-Y for Special Attack, or Aerodactyl-Mega for Attack, would not provide enough damage to pick apart Giratina, etc. due to a lack of Dragon-type STAB.
Afterall, Prankster Giratina could use Strength Sap, or Fur Coat to tank Aerodactyl-Mega's Head Smash, and could Haze out Charizard-Mega-Y's Tail Glow attempts, but it cannot just sit and tank a Draco Meteor from Rayquaza-Mega.

Unlike Kyurem-B/W, its Dragon-type STAB was not redundant with its other STAB; Dragon STAB was a useful type for it to take advantage of, including deterring Imposter from being able to freely switch-in.
Unaware was never a good option in the first place, only being used to improof stuff like Triage or Shell Smash users because the ability becomes deadweight against teams who rely on choiced breakers or otherwise don't use setup (which is quite the percentage). Prankster, on the other hand, is useful for scouting sets since you can switch into an attack and recover quickly, and one can build their team to have resistances to common setup mons in case their Prankster mon doesn't have a favorable matchup.
*Unaware may not be ideal on most defensive mons, but ones that posses at least 1 resist / immunity to a Moldy move such as Yveltal, or Chansey are definitely viable, and have been seen enough for team building consideration.

*Also, consider that sometimes self-improofing meant using Unaware mons for dealing with their Imposter of your own Pokemon; other times it meant that if you couldn't use your own Imposter, such as vs Poison Heal, or Unburden sets, you would need to have something come in safely and force them out.

The difference between Prankster Haze and Unaware is that you can send in Unaware after they have set up, while Prankster Haze requires a safe pivot (or a teammate getting KO'd) in order for it to be effective. This ultimately means, unless you slow pivot it in the turn they set up, you just lost a Pokemon. If you have Unaware, they can be sent in at any point, which matters if you didn't realize they were going to use Belly Drum, Shell Smash, etc. and now realize it isn't safe to send in your Prankster user, since their boosted attack might be a KO.

If they have set up, like with Unburden Belly Drum, that more than negates the "resistances to common setup mons", and with Shell Smash mixed sweeping is very easy to exploit the weaker Defense, while moves like Power Trip can turn what seems like a safe resist teammate, into getting nuetrally or super effectively nuked. You prepare for a "common set-up mon", but you cannot possibly prepare for all potential coverage moves., as most offensive set-up movesets have multiple slashes per attack...

Lastly, you don't need a set-up move of your own... many offensive Pokemon pack Spectral Thief for coverage, such as MMX, and thus can take advantage of it, so just because the foe doesn't use Shell Smash doesn't mean it's not capable of getting boosts. Plus you can pack Unaware without sacrificing its primary function, as Yveltal serves as a hard stop to Gengar-Mega and MMX thanks to its STAB and unique typing; regardless of its ability.
The two had two entirely different niches in the first place: as I've pointed out, Rayquaza-Mega is a Flying-type attacker while Necrozma-Ultra is a Psychic and Dragon-type attacker.

I'd say Necrozma-Ultra is more like a competitor to Mewtwo-Mega-Y, trading Speed and Special Attack for a better defensive typing, more ability to threaten Giratina and Zygarde (the use is pretty debatable, considering sets that aren't Regenvest get 2HKOd by MMY's Fairy or Ice coverage on most of its sets), and more ability to go mixed (though this is very debatable looking at MMY's SF and MG mixed sets). Its awkward speed tier hurts its viability - MMY has no problem being against MMX or Gengar, while Necrozma-Ultra is forced out.
The issue of using Necrozma-Ultra is that it’s STAB Dragon coverage allows it to bypass Giratina and Zygarde without resorting to coverage moves, while STAB Photon Geyser breaks Shedinja without feeling forced, and can use its Atk stat while MMY cannot with the same move.
*This frees up its fourth moveslot so it can cover what MMY cannot. For example, it doesn’t need Bolt Strike to hit Kyogre-Primal, because a nuetral hit off of Photon Geyser is a KO on its own, it doesn’t need to debate between Moonblast or Ice Beam (SF MMY) to break Zygarde-Complete, as Clanging Scales is self-sufficient.

It has a greater ability to go mixed because of its Z-Move, it's "anything fits" fourth slot, and the fact it literally has equal stats... Also, what does a 2HKO accomplish?
Prankster Destiny Bond, or slow pivotting in a 2HKO'd mon means it can survive to revenge set-up sweep, or just lower its offense (Parting Shot, King's Shield/Strength Sap for mixed MMY), etc. You might be forced to switch out - best case scenario, or are KOed - worst case scenario; not the opponent.
Any survival is an opportunity for them to plan accordingly, I think its definitely worth removing the comparison if they cannot land the same KOs, and let's be honest, Mewtwo cannot run the same moves Necrozma-Ultra can, and thus it wont have the same coverage, or KOs to really draw comparisons. For example, MMY Ice Beam is not super effective vs Kyurem-Black, Kyurem-White, Palkia, etc. so that gives them turns to KO or set-up. Clanging Scales is a KO, so Tough Claws Kyurem-B, that could set-up shift Gear on MMY, or Palkia that could Shell Smash are not going to risk staying in on a clear KO move.

This also meant SF MMY suffered from 4MSS, such as deciding whether to use Moongeist Beam / Photon Geyser / Psychic for its Shedinja/STAB coverage. The secondary-typing removes the "filler coverage move", and justifies not only Adaptability, but being free to cover more than MMY.

If MMY relies on Pixelate or Refrigerate, then it’s other moves suffer a loss in power and enable Adaptability’s Clanging Scales to catch up in power, which has much more neutral coverage as V-Create can handle Steels, and it’s fourth move can offer Precipice Blades for Flash Fire.

It would be more accurate to compare Dazzling, Magic Guard, Sheer Force, etc. Mewtwo-Mega-Y to Deoxys-A as a frail sweeper that can match the same sets due to the same typing, only swapping slight SpA for Speed/Atk. Now being able to run Sheer Force Life Orb sets with even greater effect in mixed sweeping (such as Bolt Strike), and outspeeding Beedrill-Mega, etc.
I think being in the same rank as Steelix-Mega, Sableye-Mega, Swampert-Mega, Metagross-Mega, and Tapu Fini fits it pretty well, considering they are situational substitutes for more consistent mons (Magearna/Registeel, Giratina, Kyogre-Primal/Groudon-Primal, Necrozma-Dusk-Mane, and Kyogre-Primal/Xerneas respectively).
How does it fit it pretty well to be in C, if it is more than a situational substitute for more consistent mons?

Rayquaza-Mega may not have relied strictly on its Dragon STAB, but neither does Necrozma-Ultra, they both used each of their STABs to great effect, and meant, at the very least, you could teambuild without having to pile on the Dragon-coverage since their STAB alone made it less of a priority for the remainder of your team, especially if they were self-Improof such as Soundproof Clanging Scales, or Unburden sets.

Point is, yes, Rayquaza-Mega used its Flying more, but it benefitted from having a dual Dragon-type for STAB- if it were a pure Flying-type it would have been less effective; Necrozma-Ultra can say the same about its Dragon-type STAB- hitting Psychic resists, and Immunities like Psychic and Dark-types, without reliance on coverage moves that it would need if it were only a Psychic-type.
 
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Rayquaza-Mega was never just another Flying-type, it relied on both of its STABs to also fill in the Dragon-type, so there would be less need for other Dragon-coverage on your team; you wouldn't need to worry about using Garchomp-Mega, or Reshiram, since Rayquaza could pack their STAB for coverage, while maintaining its role as a Flying type.

For example: If you chose -ate Rayquaza-Mega then you didn’t really need Diancie-Mega, since it’s STAB covered what Diancie-Mega did - priority Flying hit MMX, and Dragon handled Dragons.

Unlike Kyurem-B/W, its Dragon-type STAB was not redundant with its other STAB; Dragon STAB was a useful type for it to take advantage of, including hitting Imposter on predicted switch-ins.

Rayquaza-Mega may not have relied strictly on its Dragon STAB, but neither does Necrozma-Ultra, they both used each of their STABs to great effect, and meant, at the very least, you could teambuild without having to pile on the Dragon-coverage since their STAB alone made it less of a priority for the remainder of your team.
You're implying Dragon coverage is harder than it actually is. You don't need offensive dragons to beat other dragons; more defensive Dragon or Fairy-type mons such as Dialga, Xerneas, and Magearna, or just the rogue Core Enforcer/Moonblast/Ice Beam on a mon otherwise walled by Giratina/Zygarde does just fine pressuring them. Giratina and Zygarde-Complete rarely can switch into MMY, and it's not Dragon-type.

Picking another Flying-type like Charizard-Mega-Y would not provide enough damage to pick apart Giratina, etc.
Actually, it would:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Aerilate Charizard-Mega-Y Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Giratina: 364-430 (72.2 - 85.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Charizard-Mega-Y was just never used because Rayquaza-Mega existed.

And another argument: Aerilate Rayquaza doesn't really need Draco Meteor that much to beat Dragon-types, anyway:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Aerilate Rayquaza-Mega Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Giratina: 402-474 (79.7 - 94%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Aerilate Rayquaza-Mega Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Zygarde-Complete: 472-556 (74.2 - 87.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Draco Meteor was kinda nice for getting the jump on Regenvest (even though it doesn't actually OHKO either of them and Boomburst 2HKOd them anyway).

*Unaware may not be ideal on most defensive mons, but ones that posses at least 1 resist / immunity to a Moldy move such as Chansey are definitely viable, and have been seen enough for team building consideration.
Considering that only 8.8% of the top 15 mons last October (the most recent month with only Gen 7 BH as an option, in order to have a high sample size) used Unaware, I think it's safe to say Unaware is not a common issue.

*Also, consider that sometimes self-improofing meant using Unaware mons for dealing with their Imposter of your own Pokemon.
This represents an even lower amount of Unaware users. I cannot off the top of my head think of a good Unaware non-defensive self-improofing mon. Except maybe Arceus, but the amount of Arceus using Shell Smash is a bit higher than 1% so again, not a common issue you'd consciously have to think about.

The issue of using Necrozma-Ultra is that it’s STAB Dragon coverage allows it to bypass Giratina and Zygarde without resorting to coverage moves,
Not sure why resorting to coverage moves is a bad thing. You talk about 4MSS but SF MMYs have almost always packed coverage for Giratina and Zygarde-Complete, and almost none of them have packed coverage for Shedinja (though some use Knock Off or hazards). If they have problems with Shedinja they prepare their other teammates to handle it, such as slapping on the funny volcano man or having a Mold Breaker Pursuit mon in the back.
while STAB Photon Geyser breaks Shedinja without feeling forced, and can use its Atk stat while MMY cannot with the same move.
Why is Photon Geyser somehow "forced" when it's on MMY? It runs it frequently on MG sets, and most Choice Specs sets use it or Moongeist Beam which also hits opposing Psychics and Giratina. And why would MMY need to have Photon Geyser be physical? Its physical coverage hits what it needs to anyway, and it really wants to hit specially defensive mons it can just use Psystrike. Again, if it doesn't hit Shedinja, the team can be modified a little to pressure Shedinja.

This frees up its fourth moveslot so it can cover what MMY cannot. For example, it doesn’t need Bolt Strike to hit Kyogre-Primal, because a nuetral hit off of Photon Geyser is a KO on its own, it doesn’t need to debate between Moonblast or Ice Beam (SF MMY) to break Zygarde-Complete, as Clanging Scales is self-sufficient.
Bolt Strike is only used on sets that don't have room for Psystrike (meaning only mixed non-STAB MG and most SF variants). Most MMYs can hit Kyogre.
It decides between Moonblast or Ice Beam because the former hits MMX harder. You imply Clanging Scales does what Moonblast and Ice Beam both do, which is inaccurate because Necrozma-Ultra gets forced out by MMX so it wouldn't be able to hit it in the first place.

It would be more accurate to compare Dazzling, Magic Guard, Sheer Force, etc. Mewtwo-Mega-Y to Deoxys-A as a frail sweeper that can match the same sets due to the same typing, only swapping slight SpA for Speed/Atk. Now being able to run Sheer Force Life Orb sets with even greater effect in mixed sweeping (such as Bolt Strike), and outspeeding Beedrill-Mega, etc.
This is mostly correct, although you forgot that MMY has about 6x the bulk of Deoxys-Attack (assuming that MMY is Naive and Deoxys-Attack has 0 defensive investment to maximize damage against Imposter), so it can afford to switch in and not worry about 2HKOing the opponent while being OHKOd back. But one can compare both Necrozma-Ultra and Deoxys-Attack to MMY, and discussion about Deoxys-Attack is irrelevant anyway.

In conclusion, Necrozma-Ultra is fine in C rank with other situational substitutes because its competitor, MMY, is much more versatile and at a much better speed tier. Having a mixed but ultimately rigid set allows it to fit with its C-rank companions.
 

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comparing it to good offensive pokemon makes ultra look much more viable than it actually is. one might compare it to mmx, mmy, kyurem-w, ray, and even gar in terms of offensive capabilities. while these comparisons are not technically incorrect, they fail to account for ultra's abysmal disadvantage state.

ultra needs the momentum stacked in its favor in order to come in at all. most pokemon can 2hko it with moves like spectral and core, which is really bad considering ultra's reliance on zmove to ohko the majority of its targets (meaning that being chipped shortens the list of what it can threaten, and using up zmove after that makes it a complete non-threat). in addition, ultra is easily revenge killed by both mmy and gar, 2 very threatening pokemon, so even if it manages to get a kill, the effort needed to both get it in and deal with the momentum shift afterward is often not even worth it at all. this also means that ultra gets absolutely invalidated by uturn.

considering the other 2 sets, smash and specs: smash is very annoying to imposter-proof and isn't horrible as a smasher, but suffers the same issue of being hard to get in. specs has a basically permanent zmove in the form of psycho boost (w psystrike for ogre) meaning that it can get consistent ohkos, but it must be used on a very slow and passive team; as a result, it often simply fails to break faster than the opposing team. being prediction-reliant and vulnerable to midgrounds exacerbates this even more.

these reasons are why i do not support ultra rising above c rank.
 
You're implying Dragon coverage is harder than it actually is. You don't need offensive dragons to beat other dragons; more defensive Dragon or Fairy-type mons such as Dialga, Xerneas, and Magearna, or just the rogue Core Enforcer/Moonblast/Ice Beam on a mon otherwise walled by Giratina/Zygarde does just fine pressuring them. Giratina and Zygarde-Complete rarely can switch into MMY, and it's not Dragon-type.


Actually, it would:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Aerilate Charizard-Mega-Y Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Giratina: 364-430 (72.2 - 85.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Charizard-Mega-Y was just never used because Rayquaza-Mega existed.

And another argument: Aerilate Rayquaza doesn't really need Draco Meteor that much to beat Dragon-types, anyway:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Aerilate Rayquaza-Mega Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Giratina: 402-474 (79.7 - 94%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Aerilate Rayquaza-Mega Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Zygarde-Complete: 472-556 (74.2 - 87.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Draco Meteor was kinda nice for getting the jump on Regenvest (even though it doesn't actually OHKO either of them and Boomburst 2HKOd them anyway).


Considering that only 8.8% of the top 15 mons last October (the most recent month with only Gen 7 BH as an option, in order to have a high sample size) used Unaware, I think it's safe to say Unaware is not a common issue.


This represents an even lower amount of Unaware users. I cannot off the top of my head think of a good Unaware non-defensive self-improofing mon. Except maybe Arceus, but the amount of Arceus using Shell Smash is a bit higher than 1% so again, not a common issue you'd consciously have to think about.


Not sure why resorting to coverage moves is a bad thing. You talk about 4MSS but SF MMYs have almost always packed coverage for Giratina and Zygarde-Complete, and almost none of them have packed coverage for Shedinja (though some use Knock Off or hazards). If they have problems with Shedinja they prepare their other teammates to handle it, such as slapping on the funny volcano man or having a Mold Breaker Pursuit mon in the back.

Why is Photon Geyser somehow "forced" when it's on MMY? It runs it frequently on MG sets, and most Choice Specs sets use it or Moongeist Beam which also hits opposing Psychics and Giratina. And why would MMY need to have Photon Geyser be physical? Its physical coverage hits what it needs to anyway, and it really wants to hit specially defensive mons it can just use Psystrike. Again, if it doesn't hit Shedinja, the team can be modified a little to pressure Shedinja.


Bolt Strike is only used on sets that don't have room for Psystrike (meaning only mixed non-STAB MG and most SF variants). Most MMYs can hit Kyogre.
It decides between Moonblast or Ice Beam because the former hits MMX harder. You imply Clanging Scales does what Moonblast and Ice Beam both do, which is inaccurate because Necrozma-Ultra gets forced out by MMX so it wouldn't be able to hit it in the first place.


This is mostly correct, although you forgot that MMY has about 6x the bulk of Deoxys-Attack (assuming that MMY is Naive and Deoxys-Attack has 0 defensive investment to maximize damage against Imposter), so it can afford to switch in and not worry about 2HKOing the opponent while being OHKOd back. But one can compare both Necrozma-Ultra and Deoxys-Attack to MMY, and discussion about Deoxys-Attack is irrelevant anyway.

In conclusion, Necrozma-Ultra is fine in C rank with other situational substitutes because its competitor, MMY, is much more versatile and at a much better speed tier. Having a mixed but ultimately rigid set allows it to fit with its C-rank companions.
1. That’s a lie. I am not implying that Dragon coverage is hard, what I am implying is that having a Pokemon that already packs Dragon coverage means you are less likely to need it on the other members of your team.

2. Again, not a 1HKO, and how can Charizard-Mega or even Rayquaza-Mega expect to even 2HKO when Core Enforcer removes their STAB, and then turns it into a Normal-type which Giratina is immune to?

Core Enforcer is a 2HKO on Rayquaza-Mega, which compounds with its Stealth Rock weakness... Giratina can recover on Rayquaza-Mega’s forced switch out, while Rayquaza-Mega can not touch Giratina once Core Enforcer hits, afterall, you did use Choice sets...

252 SpA Griseous Orb Giratina Core Enforcer vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Rayquaza-Mega: 258-306 (62.3 - 73.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

I brought up Draco Meteor so that way Soundproof wouldn’t be a factor, as Boomburst didn’t hit Soundproof, but even skipping Soundproof, Giratina surviving Boomburst while Boomburst is effectively negated puts Giratina in as a Check / revenge kill position, and makes Rayquaza susceptible to being KOed itself.

Even without its Griseous Orb, it’s a 2HKO against Rayquaza.

252 SpA Giratina Core Enforcer vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Rayquaza-Mega: 218-258 (52.6 - 62.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

To prevent situations, like the one listed above, Specs Draco was the deciding factor, in being a secure way to handle Zygarde-Complete / Giratina, KOing against non-AV.

3. I never said it was common, I did say it was viable enough to consider when building a team. Plus an almost 10% usage rate isn’t that uncommon, further you only listed the top 15 Pokemon, whom are not always defensive, and thus when I referred to defensive Unaware, like Chansey I wasn’t referring to same set self-Improof mons.

It would be better to look at Defensive Pokemon, since you specifically said “non-Defensive”, and for the record I wasn’t referring to “same set self-Improofing” mons, I was referring to using an Unaware teammate to handle your sweep. Afterall, we all know Chansey doesn’t sweep with Unaware, and me listing that proves I was referring to using Unaware overall. In the end, if you cannot same set self-Improof, you can use a teammate to switch in on Imposter with Unaware, like Chansey, especially since their Imposter won’t pack Life Orb, or a Z-move.

Think of Unaware Yveltal Improofing Shell Smash Dazzling MMX.

4. Resorting to coverage moves isn’t necessarily a bad thing, but relying on coverage moves, especially when you have 4 move slot syndrome is. It prevents you from having enough space to cover more since you don’t have the necessary STAB for strong nuetral hits, nor do you have the STAB to boost a super effective hit, forcing you to run items or abilities that make up for that, which can limit the sets you can run. I.e. SF MMY Ice Beam Vs Moonblast: While both can hit Dragons, Moongeist Beam becomes more necessary to hit MMX if you don’t use Moonblast, but if you used Moonblast you could skip Moongeist Beam for MMX, but then you now need Photon to hit Shedinja. This isn’t a problem when a STAB Photon off of Adaptability can KO Shedinja and threaten MMX with chip damage, or just Z-Move if it needs to secure a KO at full HP.

Thus, by doing what it does without resorting to having to swap in moves and swap out other coverage moves, it can squeeze more and therefore cover more.

I have seen MMY with Photon or Moongeist Beam, and people sometimes debate on Photon or Psychic for STAB due to the increased base power of Psychic Vs Moldy move effect on Discord, and even on Smogon.

5. So I wasn’t referring to it being forced on MMY, I was referring to how on Pokemon without STAB it would be forced since it is a common use to have Moldy moves on sweepers/wall breakers, but it’s not considered a coverage move on Necrozma-Ultra because it would use it anyways. I then acknowledged how Rayquaza-Mega would use Sunsteel Strike; Moongeist Beam on it’s sets and that it often created 4 move slot syndrome.

6. The point is, Necrozma-Ultra doesn’t need Psystrike, or Bolt Strike, it can simply use Photon off of its Attack stat, and it can use Clanging Scales to not rely on Light for Ruin for a MG set. This ultimately allows it to not worry about Fur Coat like Psystrike Mewtwo would need to consider for Psystrike, not worry about Shedinja. What Clanging Scales does is allow Necrozma-Ultra to rely less on picking the right move, since it’s pretty safe to use that without selecting the wrong coverage move with a lot of resistances (Dragon has 1 resistance and 1 Immunity), while Ice Beam and Moonblast are much easier to resist. Also it’s Z-Move KOs MMX, so it doesn’t rely on coverage moves. MMX doesn’t necessarily threaten out Necrozma-Ultra since it’s STAB is resisted, it’s coverage move in V-Create is resisted, and it wouldn’t want to come in and take a huge hit from its neutral moves anyways. Sure it can come in on a slow pivot; and threaten with Spectral or U-Turn, but you are not factoring in Necrozma-Ultra’s fourth move which could be Shell Smash, or another move that can threaten MMX.

7. Deoxys-A was compared to MMY in the sense they run the same sets. If either runs Focus Sash, then it’s kind of irrelevant how much bulk it has, as MMY is unlikely to survive more than 2 unresisted hits anyways. The fact you are saying you can compare MMY to Deoxys-A and Necrozma-Ultra is because they are mixed Psychic attackers, just like Necrozma-Ultra is a mixed Dragon attack (like Rayquaza). Their secondary typing difference makes them different, but their primary typing makes them worthy of the comparison when they can share the same STAB to nab the same KOs.

8. Necrozma-Ultra is above C, because it is more flexible in its Movesets, stats, and dual typing while other Pokemon in C rank like Metagross-Mega or Swampert-Mega are limited in what they can do; while Necrozma-Ultra is fast and powerful enough to perform a variety of sets.
comparing it to good offensive pokemon makes ultra look much more viable than it actually is. one might compare it to mmx, mmy, kyurem-w, ray, and even gar in terms of offensive capabilities. while these comparisons are not technically incorrect, they fail to account for ultra's abysmal disadvantage state.

ultra needs the momentum stacked in its favor in order to come in at all. most pokemon can 2hko it with moves like spectral and core, which is really bad considering ultra's reliance on zmove to ohko the majority of its targets (meaning that being chipped shortens the list of what it can threaten, and using up zmove after that makes it a complete non-threat). in addition, ultra is easily revenge killed by both mmy and gar, 2 very threatening pokemon, so even if it manages to get a kill, the effort needed to both get it in and deal with the momentum shift afterward is often not even worth it at all. this also means that ultra gets absolutely invalidated by uturn.

considering the other 2 sets, smash and specs: smash is very annoying to imposter-proof and isn't horrible as a smasher, but suffers the same issue of being hard to get in. specs has a basically permanent zmove in the form of psycho boost (w psystrike for ogre) meaning that it can get consistent ohkos, but it must be used on a very slow and passive team; as a result, it often simply fails to break faster than the opposing team. being prediction-reliant and vulnerable to midgrounds exacerbates this even more.

these reasons are why i do not support ultra rising above c rank.
What about Soundproof Clanging Scales? If it packs Shell Smash to make up for not using Adaptability, it can Imposterproof without much effort, and just like Soundproof Rayquaza-Mega / Sceptile-Mega had, it can use a Z-Move for the Imposter.

Improofing it via Soundproof Slowbro-Mega is easy, just like it was with Diancie-Mega / Rayquaza-Mega, and it provides a helpful slow pivot to boot.

+2 252+ Atk Adaptability Necrozma-Ultra Photon Geyser 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro-Mega: 136-160 (34.5 - 40.6%) -- 54.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Adaptability Necrozma-Ultra Photon Geyser vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro-Mega: 68-81 (17.2 - 20.5%) -- possible 7HKO after Leftovers recovery

In my original set, with the link, I provide calculations that use Life Orb for solid KOs and do not include any boosts from Shell Smash, in fact I don’t even include a Z-move calc.

Life Orb alone allows it to 1HKO the walls, so I don’t know why you said it needs a Z-Move... here is the list of calcs, since you seem to think it cannot use Life Orb to great effect?

252+ Atk Life Orb Necrozma-Ultra V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Registeel: 367-432 (100.8 - 118.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Life Orb Adaptability Necrozma-Ultra Clanging Scales vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Zygarde-Complete: 619-728 (97.3 - 114.4%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery without Steath Rocks

252 SpA Life Orb Adaptability Necrozma-Ultra Clanging Scales vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde-Complete: 562-665 (88.3 - 104.5%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (25% chance without Steath Rocks)

252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Necrozma-Ultra Photon Geyser vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Kyogre-Primal: 320-377 (79.2 - 93.3%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Life Orb Adaptability Necrozma-Ultra Clanging Scales vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Giratina: 530-624 (105.1 - 123.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Additonal:


252+ Atk Life Orb Necrozma-Ultra V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 411-486 (103.2 - 122.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Where did it need a Z-move to wallbreak?
—————

2HKOed by Core Enforcer?

Rayquaza-Mega is barely bulkier than Necrozma-Ultra
(105 HP / 100 Def / 100 SpD VERSUS 97 HP / 97 Def / 97 SpD)

When does Rayquaza-Mega survive a Core Enforcer at a 3HKO that Necromoza-Ultra would only survive at a 2HKO?

Spectral Thief is a weakness of Necrozma-Ultra, but that’s not as bad as a 4x weakness to Ice, and a Stealth Rock weakness - which upon switch-in more than cancels out the minor bulk advantage.

Spectral Thief is used on how many Pokemon faster than Necrozma-Ultra? MMX, Maybe MMY? We know Beedrill-Mega, Aerodactyl-Mega, and Gengar-Mega wouldn't use it, and oftentimes even Pheromosa prefers Knock Off (which does less if holding a Z-Crystal) to cripple the foe. Sure, they have other moves, but if they are Choice locked into something it resists like V-Create, Secret Sword, or Close Combat, then it’s not like you would be KOed. Also, if they do use Spectral as a faster Pokemon, who is to say you haven’t used Shell Smash on their slow pivot in?

They would need Focus Sash to survive, and since the few faster Pokemon I listed as using Spectral Thief are prettt much limited to MMX, who is less likely to use Focus Sash over Choice Band or Life Orb, it doesn’t seem as likely.

So since only a couple of Faster Pokemon might use it, that means it comes from slower Pokemon, so what is going to tank the first hit to use Spectral Thief to begin with?
Plus if it gets 2HKOed by something slower that can 2HKO it, by virtue of it being faster, it can 2HKO them first so it still forces them out...
——————
Post unchallenged, guess I am right!

 
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2. Again, not a 1HKO, and how can Charizard-Mega or even Rayquaza-Mega expect to even 2HKO when Core Enforcer removes their STAB, and then turns it into a Normal-type which Giratina is immune to?

Core Enforcer is a 2HKO on Rayquaza-Mega, which compounds with its Stealth Rock weakness... Giratina can recover on Rayquaza-Mega’s forced switch out, while Rayquaza-Mega can not touch Giratina once Core Enforcer hits, afterall, you did use Choice sets...

252 SpA Griseous Orb Giratina Core Enforcer vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Rayquaza-Mega: 258-306 (62.3 - 73.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

I brought up Draco Meteor so that way Soundproof wouldn’t be a factor, as Boomburst didn’t hit Soundproof, but even skipping Soundproof, Giratina surviving Boomburst while Boomburst is effectively negated puts Giratina in as a Check / revenge kill position, and makes Rayquaza susceptible to being KOed itself.

Even without its Griseous Orb, it’s a 2HKO against Rayquaza.

252 SpA Giratina Core Enforcer vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Rayquaza-Mega: 218-258 (52.6 - 62.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

To prevent situations, like the one listed above, Specs Draco was the deciding factor, in being a secure way to handle Zygarde-Complete / Giratina, KOing against non-AV.
Obviously you'd keep the calc in mind (Boomburst does 80 minimum to Giratina and 74 minimum to Zygarde) when using Rayquaza. If it can't KO in one turn then it stays out, it's that simple. And it's as simple to chip either 20-25%, since they're switched in on most physical threats.

I never said it was common, I did say it was viable enough to consider when building a team. Plus an almost 10% usage rate isn’t that uncommon, like Chansey I wasn’t referring to same set self-Improof mons.
further you only listed the top 15 Pokemon, whom are not always defensive, and thus when I referred to defensive Unaware
I specifically picked the top 15 defensive Pokemon for that reason.

Resorting to coverage moves isn’t necessarily a bad thing, but relying on coverage moves, especially when you have 4 move slot syndrome is. It prevents you from having enough space to cover more since you don’t have the necessary STAB for strong nuetral hits, nor do you have the STAB to boost a super effective hit, forcing you to run items or abilities that make up for that, which can limit the sets you can run. I.e. SF MMY Ice Beam Vs Moonblast: While both can hit Dragons, Moongeist Beam becomes more necessary to hit MMX if you don’t use Moonblast, but if you used Moonblast you could skip Moongeist Beam for MMX, but then you now need Photon to hit Shedinja.

Thus, by doing what it does without resorting to having to swap in moves and swap out other coverage moves, it can squeeze more and therefore cover more.

I have seen MMY with Photon or Moongeist Beam, and people sometimes debate on Photon or Psychic for STAB due to the increased base power of Psychic Vs Moldy move effect on Discord, and even on Smogon.
I already said in my last post that SF MMY does not usually pack coverage for Shedinja because it doesn't need to, its teammates can handle that for it.

This isn’t a problem when a STAB Photon off of Adaptability can KO Shedinja and threaten MMX with chip damage, or just Z-Move if it needs to secure a KO at full HP.
I already said that Necrozma-Ultra is outsped by MMX so it gets forced out. No MMX is switching into Necrozma-Ultra, either.

MMX doesn’t necessarily threaten out Necrozma-Ultra since it’s STAB is resisted, it’s coverage move in V-Create is resisted, and it wouldn’t want to come in and take a huge hit from its neutral moves anyways. Sure it can come in on a slow pivot; and threaten with Spectral or U-Turn, but you are not factoring in Necrozma-Ultra’s fourth move which could be Shell Smash, or another move that can threaten MMX.
V-Create doesn't hit anything. MMX uses Spectral Thief and/or Ice Hammer instead:
252 Atk Choice Band Mewtwo-Mega-X Spectral Thief vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Necrozma-Ultra: 316-374 (79.3 - 93.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Mewtwo-Mega-X Ice Hammer vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Necrozma-Ultra: 350-414 (87.9 - 104%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Expert Belt Tough Claws Mewtwo-Mega-X Spectral Thief vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Necrozma-Ultra: 329-389 (82.6 - 97.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Expert Belt Tough Claws Mewtwo-Mega-X Ice Hammer vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Necrozma-Ultra: 367-432 (92.2 - 108.5%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
If Necrozma-Ultra used Shell Smash as the pivot switches out, then why would the opponent ever go into MMX? I don't get your logic.

If either runs Focus Sash, then it’s kind of irrelevant how much bulk it has
Focus Sash is a terrible option because you lose a significant amount of power. At that point you're probably better off using MMY, Beedrill-Mega is really not that common and you KO your desired targets with physical attacks without the need for more Attack anyway.

as MMY is unlikely to survive more than 2 unresisted hits anyways
252 SpA Griseous Orb Giratina Core Enforcer vs. 252 HP / 252- SpD Mewtwo-Mega-Y: 127-150 (30.5 - 36%) -- 50% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Griseous Orb Giratina Core Enforcer vs. 252 HP / 0- SpD Deoxys-Attack: 819-964 (269.4 - 317.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Zygarde-Complete Thousand Waves vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Mewtwo-Mega-Y: 121-144 (29 - 34.6%) -- 7% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Zygarde-Complete Thousand Waves vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-Attack: 424-501 (139.4 - 164.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Zygarde-Complete U-turn vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Mewtwo-Mega-Y: 126-150 (30.2 - 36%) -- 46.8% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Zygarde-Complete U-turn vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-Attack: 442-520 (145.3 - 171%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Xerneas Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 252- SpD Mewtwo-Mega-Y: 121-144 (29 - 34.6%) -- 7% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Xerneas Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 0- SpD Deoxys-Attack: 781-921 (256.9 - 302.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

The fact you are saying you can compare MMY to Deoxys-A and Necrozma-Ultra is because they are mixed Psychic attackers, just like Necrozma-Ultra is a mixed Dragon attack (like Rayquaza). Their secondary typing difference makes them different, but their primary typing makes them worthy of the comparison when they can share the same STAB to nab the same KOs.
Did you forget that Necrozma-Ultra is a Psychic-type? Only 15% of Rayquaza-Mega sets we know used mixed sets, the rest used physical or special. And what's funny is that your last statement about Necrozma-Ultra and Rayquaza-Mega can be made even more accurately about Necrozma-Ultra and MMY.

Necrozma-Ultra is above C, because it is more flexible in its Movesets, stats, and dual typing
I didn't know Necrozma-Ultra could change its stats and dual typing, is that a new mechanic for Gen 7 BH?

Post unchallenged, guess I am right!
your parents must be proud of all the internet arguments you've "won" huh

alright Cool Set tm...
:sm/groudon:
unfunny volcano man (Groudon) @ Groundium Z
Ability: Guts
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Thousand Arrows
- Stealth Rock
- Will-O-Wisp
- Strength Sap
Basically this plays like Groudon-Primal except if wow gets bounced you benefit from it (switching into WoW and Scald and Lava Plume are options too). TArrows into Z-TArrows 2HKOs Giratina which is really cool. Garchomp-Mega may be an option cause of higher Atk and Spe but Groudon isn't weak to Dragon/Fairy and the extra Defense helps it out in some cases like taking hits from MMX (252 Atk Choice Band Adaptability Mewtwo-Mega-X Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Groudon: 326-384 (80.6 - 95%) -- guaranteed 2HKO). Improofed by the same things as Groudon-Primal was (Magic Bounce physical fatmon), basically, though you might want to pack a Core Enforcer on it to cancel out Guts if Imposter burns itself.

replay: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-1109341754 (featuring your local unset band assist mmx)
i had a replay with will where don still put in some work even though it didn't get burned but i forgot to save it rip
 
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