Balanced Hackmons Central

E4 Flint

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Community Leader
Balanced Hackmons Central
Welcome to the central resource for Balanced Hackmons!
What this thread is:
  • A place to get an introduction to the tier, including questions about mechanics
  • A crossroads to get links to specific discussions (see Link Index below)
  • A place to ask for constructive feedback about one's team, and potentially add to the BH Sample Teams Vault
  • A place where Official Announcements for the tier will be posted
Check the Link Index below for the right place to do these:
  • Discussing the state of the meta
  • Discussing BH bans or suspect processes
  • Posting theorymons
  • Sharing creative BH sets
  • Discussing official Smogon BH Analyses
Index
  • Balanced Hackmons Central (This Post!)
  • Link Index
  • Announcements
  • Balanced Hackmons Viability Rankings and Analyses
  • Balanced Hackmons Speed Tiers
And more! (to come)

What is Balanced Hackmons?
From a technical standpoint, Balanced Hackmons is an Other Meta that allows you to use nearly anything possible that you can battle with in a link battle between players, in the most current cartridge.

Conceptually, BH is defined as a sandbox tier where one can use Pokemon to their fullest potential. Nearly any Pokemon can be used, with normal restrictions being removed; Megas and other formes can be used without any transformation or item. Pokemon can make use of nearly any move and ability in the game, instead of being limited to what they can legally have, and any item can be used.


What makes it "Balanced"?
The removal of abilities, moves or Pokemon that focus the meta only around their use.


General Mechanics:
As mentioned, BH seek to follow what is possible in-cartridge, and therefore, the mechanics will as well. This includes any inherent restrictions in Pokemon, moves and items. Some notable mechanics are given below.
  • Since BH allows the use of anything coded in the game, unreleased Pokemon and moves are usable
  • Because of the caveat of being possible in a link battle, these basic mechanics must be followed:
    • the use of only 4 moves per Pokermon
    • only one manual mega evolution per battle
    • Pokemon being limited to only 510 EV points
  • Pokemon may begin in any form they have in game without restrictions subject to the banlist. This includes Mega evolutions without a manual Mega Evolution and their specific Megastone, and different forms without necessary moves and/or items (such as GiratinaO, Aegislash-Blade, Rotom forms, Meloetta-P, Darmanitan-Zen and so forth)
  • Arceus, regardless of ability, cannot lose its held plate. It cannot be given a plate as well
  • Any form of Arceus can be used; however it will remain Normal-type unless it keeps the required plate and Multitype
  • Conversely, an Arceus holding a plate and having Multitype can take on any form of Arceus, but will retain its typing from the plate
  • Arceus cannot be forced to change its type; therefore it cannot use Protean. In addition, Soak will fail on it, but Forest's Curse and Trick-or-Treat will work normally
  • Hard-coded abilities designated for specific Pokemon will not work on any other. This includes Multitype, Stance Change, Forecast and Flower Gift
  • The only move hard-coded for a specific Pokemon, Hyperspace Fury, may only work on Hoopa-Unbound or its Imposter
  • You may set (nearly) any ability onto a base form of a Mega, but after a manual Mega evolution, they will retain their legal ability
  • Similarly, Pokemon with Primal Reversion, may make use of almost any ability on their base form once, before they revert and retain their legal ability. Some examples of base form abilities are Intimidate, Magic Guard, and Download
  • Items meant for specific Pokemon may work on their forms and retain their properties.
    • Mega Pokemon holding their Megastone cannot lose them via Knock Off or Trick
    • Mega Pokemon cannot Mega into themselves. This does not exclude Charizard-Mega or Mewtwo-Mega Mega Evolving to their alternate Mega form with the right stone
    • Both forms of Giratina may hold Griseous Orb. It applies its effects and cannot be removed from either one. Giratina-A will not transform into Giratina-O while holding it
    • Latios and Latias may make use of Soul Dew in both base and Mega forms
  • Furthermore, Pokemon with Imposter while holding special items retain their item's properties. This includes
    • The capability of Mega-Evolvution or Primal Reversion with the designated items
    • Stat buffs from items such as Eviolite, Soul Dew, Light Ball, Thick Club, DeepSea items and more. This excludes Ditto's special items which are coded not to work when Ditto is in a transformed state.
    • Special effects from items such Lucky Punch or Stick
Clause and Ban List:
(Where applicable, link to decision included)
(Link to the BH Suspects and Bans Official Thread)


Moves
  • Assist (Link)
  • Chatter (Link)
  • OHKO Moves
Abilities
  • Wonder Guard
  • Pure/Huge Power
  • Parental Bond (Link)
  • Protean (Link)
  • Shadow Tag/Arena Trap
  • Moody (Link)
Pokemon
  • Groudon Primal (Link)
  • Kyogre Primal (Link)
(Any of the above are bans on what is stated ONLY. This does NOT exclude the possibility to obtain any of the above in-battle. Primal Groudon through Reversion of a Groudon with Red Orb, Shadow Tag Gengar-Mega through a manual evolution, or similarly Salamence-Mega through evolution while having another -ate on the team, are all possible cases)

Clauses
  • Ability Clause: No more than two Pokemon with the same ability per team. (Link)
  • -Ate Clause: No more than one Pokemon with the ability Aerilate, Refrigerate or Pixilate per team (Link)
  • Endless Battle Clause: Forcing an endless battle is banned, similar to the rest of PS
  • Evasion Moves Clause: No moves that can increase Evasion are allowed. This does not include abilities or items that may modify Evasion passively such as Sand Veil or Brightpowder (Link)
Feedback for this thread? Feel free to post here or VM me, E4 Flint
Credit to my friend, Zangooser, who's revolutionary AG Resources were my inspiration
 
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E4 Flint

-inactive in BH due corrupt leader-
is a member of the Site Staffis a Community Leaderis a Battle Simulator Moderator
Community Leader
Announcements and Recent Events

May 1, 2016: BH Central Thread published
May 2, 2016: Protean Suspect will begin! (Phase 1) (Link)
May 2, 2016: Protean Suspect continues! (Phase 2) (Link)

May 23, 2016: Protean Voting Ends. Protean Banned! (Link)
June 19, 2016: Moody Ban announced (Link)
 
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Uselesscrab

suffering whiteout conditions
is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributor
Moderator
The New BH Viability Rankings
Created by: Uselesscrab, MAMP, highlighter, Kingslayer2779, AWailOfATail, InfernapeTropius11, and probably others
The attached links go to the OM C&C analysis for a given Pokemon.

Version #3, June 15, 2016
S Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are amazing in the BH metagame. These Pokemon are usually able to perform a variety of roles effectively, or can just do one extremely well. Their use has low risk involved and high reward exerted. Pokemon in this rank have very few flaws that are patched up by numerous positive traits.

S Rank
Chansey
Mega Diancie
Mega Rayquaza

A Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are fantastic in the BH metagame, and can sweep, support, or wall significant portions of the metagame. These Pokemon require less support than most others to be used effectively and have few flaws that can easily be compensated for when compared to their positive traits.

A+ Rank
Giratina
Mega Gengar

A Rank
Aegislash
Groudon (Red Orb)
Mega Audino
Mega Mewtwo X
Mega Tyranitar
Registeel

A- Rank
Dialga
Kyogre
Mega Latias
Mega Latios
Mega Mewtwo Y
Shedinja

B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are great in the BH metagame. These Pokemon have more notable flaws than those above them that affect how they function in the tier. Their positive traits still outshine their negatives, but they require a bit more team support to bring out their full potential.

B+ Rank
Arceus
Kyurem-Black
Mega Garchomp
Mega Gyarados
Yveltal

B Rank
Regigigas
Slaking


B- Rank
Gengar
Groudon
Ho-oh
Mega Blaziken
Mega Metagross
Regirock
Xerneas

C Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that have notable niches in the BH metagame, but have just as many notable flaws that prevent them from being effective. Pokemon in the C tier often require significant support to be effective. Pokemon from this rank tend to face a lot of competition with the more commonly used Pokemon.

C+ Rank
Cresselia
Kyurem-White
Lugia
Mega Aerodactyl
Mega Aggron
Mega Sceptile
Mega Steelix
Mega Venusaur
Palkia

C Rank
Deoxys-Attack
Deoxys-Speed
Hoopa-Unbound
Mega Scizor
Reshiram

C- Rank
Giratina-Origin
Mega Swampert
Zekrom

D Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are mediocre in the BH metagame, but are viable enough to justify their use on select teams. These Pokemon are either usable but have no real niche, or are only capable of doing their specific task and fail at doing anything more than that. Pokemon from this rank have multiple crippling flaws that prevent them from being successful a majority of the time, and are often severely outclassed because of it.

D Rank
Ferrothorn
Heatran
Kangaskhan
Mawile
Mega Alakazam
Mega Ampharos
Mega Heracross
Mega Salamence
Pikachu
 
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E4 Flint

-inactive in BH due corrupt leader-
is a member of the Site Staffis a Community Leaderis a Battle Simulator Moderator
Community Leader
Balanced Hackmons Speed Tiers

The freedom to select nearly any mon results in a very diverse speed tier collection. For example, there are many more threats to consider when unboosted, but since setup is also available to all, common sets like PH Tyranitar with Shift Gear have to be considered. Finally, negative speed tiers are also extremely important in order to get slow pivots and maintain momentum on your opponent. A selection of common speed benchmarks are given below for all categories.

Format: Speed / Pokemon (if single) / Base Speed / Nature (+Spe, -Spe, or Neutral) / EVs / IVs / Boost(where applicable)


 
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Is this the thread to post our suggestion for the VR? If so,
-Heatran to unranked
Heatran has a niche, but it's not really a usable one. Its weak, lacks bulk, and wishes that thousand arrows didn't exist with a burning passion. Its even more one dimensional that anything else there. I suppose I can see it as not being useless, but I don't think we have to rank everything.

-Gengar to B-
While it does have the crippling flaw of manual evolution, shadow tag is amazing and it has no real competition from other mons that want to use the slot. While pivoting is pretty common, I think its still just to effective for the C ranks.

-Cresselia to C
The metagame isn't very good to it, and it isn't that bulky, especially considering its weakness to ghost, koff, and competition from Maudino. I'd even push for lower, really., but this seems good to start with. If someone has a reason for it I'm fine, but much more usable mons are ranked lower down.

-Mega Audino to A+
This thing is amazing, even more so than the A rank. Its honestly one of the best mons ATM, as it has no common weaknesses, a great immunity, and some solid resistances, plus an incredible bulk. Even more importantly, however, its a great imposterproofer and pivot. It has easily 10 viable sets and abilities, and I cant remember the last time I saw a good stall or balance team without it.

-Palkia to C+
Palkia is impossible to switch into with rocks, full stop, unless you have a random water absorb/desolate land mon floating around- that's also fairy type. Even chansey can't live two hits from a specs rain hydro pump, as showcased here 252+ SpA Choice Specs Palkia Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Chansey in Heavy Rain: 313-369 (44.4 - 52.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock. With just 2 moves (spacial rend and water spout) no viable pokemon stop it, giving it 2 free moveslots for things like trick, steam eruption, or basically whatever the heck you want to use to screw over so called counters or make prediction easier. I'd go for higher, but it has a crappy matchup vs offense.

-Pikachu to C-
At least its usable, I don't know when the last time, say, ferrothorn was ever the best pick for any serious BH team.

-Deoxys-S to C
This thing is supposedly so good as a spore/dv spammer that people are calling for a sleep suspect. If it is that great, it definitally deserves a higher rank, especially seeing as c- is still the worst of the best. Outside of that, sui leads aren't useless in BH and it can run some cool no-guard sets as well

Basically a repost, but the other thread got closed.

In addition, E4 Flint is the speed tier meant to be empty, or is that an oversight? If it needs work I'd be willing to help/take it on, but I'm kinda uncertain rn.

Srry if I'm not allowed to post here with this, but idk what else TI could have meant. Great thread, this looks pretty sweet.
 
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Funbot28

Porque yo soy tu veneno
is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
For the VR, I would like to suggest that Chansey should be placed in S+ again. Imposter dominates the meta, while Fur Coat sets are becoming increasingly common as well and acts as one of the best blanket checks to deal with various threats again. Yes there is Shell Smash Mega Gengar and Judgement shenanigans as a whole, but these tactics could be countered if Chansey runs Spooky Plate (which is becoming standard now). It completely makes the meta revolve around it, and is way more influential and centralizing compared to the other S-Ranks to warrant its own sub-division imo.

Also, wasn't it discovered that Chansey can use Hyperspace Fury? If so, than why is Hoopa-U in C? It gets destroyed by -ate and its mediocre speed in general leaves it ouclassed by other wallbreakers like Mega Latios and Primal Groudon.
 

E4 Flint

-inactive in BH due corrupt leader-
is a member of the Site Staffis a Community Leaderis a Battle Simulator Moderator
Community Leader
Is this the thread to post our suggestion for the VR? If so,
-Heatran to unranked
Heatran has a niche, but it's not really a usable one. Its weak, lacks bulk, and wishes that thousand arrows didn't exist with a burning passion. Its even more one dimensional that anything else there. I suppose I can see it as not being useless, but I don't think we have to rank everything.

-Gengar to B-
While it does have the crippling flaw of manual evolution, shadow tag is amazing and it has no real competition from other mons that want to use the slot. While pivoting is pretty common, I think its still just to effective for the C ranks.

-Cresselia to C
The metagame isn't very good to it, and it isn't that bulky, especially considering its weakness to ghost, koff, and competition from Maudino. I'd even push for lower, really. If someone has a reason for it I'm fine, but much more usable mons are ranked lower down.

-Mega Audino to A+
This thing is amazing, even more so than the A rank. Its honestly one of the best mons ATM, as it has no common weaknesses, a great immunity, and some solid resistances, plus an incredible bulk. Even more importantly, however, its a great imposterproofer and pivot. It has easily 10 viable sets and abilities, and I cant remember the last time I saw a good stall or balance team without it.

-Palkia to C+
Palkia is impossible to switch into with rocks, full stop, unless you have a random water absorb/desolate land mon floating around- that's also fairy type. Even chansey can't live two hits from a specs rain hydro pump, as showcased here 252+ SpA Choice Specs Palkia Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Chansey in Heavy Rain: 313-369 (44.4 - 52.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock. With just 2 moves (spacial rend and water spout) no viable pokemon stop it, giving it 2 free moveslots for things like trick, steam eruption, or basically whatever the heck you want to use to screw over so called counters or make prediction easier. I'd go for higher, but it has a crappy matchup vs offense.

-Pikachu to C-
At least its usable, I cant remeber when the last time, say, ferrothorn was ever the best pick for any serious BH team.

-Deoxys-S to C
This thing is supposedly so good as a spore/dv spammer that people are calling for a sleep suspect. If it is that great, it definitally deserves a higher rank, especially seeing as c- is still the worst of the best. Outside of that, sui leads aren't useless in BH and it can run some cool no-guard sets as well

Basically a repost, but the other thread got closed.

In addition, E4 Flint is the speed tier meant to be empty, or is that an oversight? If it needs work I'd be willing to help/take it on, but I'm kinda uncertain rn.

Srry If I'm not allowed to post here with this, but idk what else TI could have meant. Great thread, this looks pretty sweet.
you may post about anything in the op in this thread! I am still working on this which is why the speed tier list is empty among others, but I will soon open the floor for discussion on not only the VR, but rating teams here to add to our Team Vault, any questions about our official BH analyses and more!
 
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For the VR, I would like to suggest that Chansey should be placed in S+ again. Imposter dominates the meta, while Fur Coat sets are becoming increasingly common as well and acts as one of the best blanket checks to deal with various threats again. Yes there is Shell Smash Mega Gengar and Judgement shenanigans as a whole, but these tactics could be countered if Chansey runs Spooky Plate (which is becoming standard now). It completely makes the meta revolve around it, and is way more influential
and centralizing compared to the other S-Ranks to warrant its own sub-division imo.

Also, wasn't it discovered that Chansey can use Hyperspace Fury? If so, than why is Hoopa-U in C? It gets destroyed by -ate and its mediocre speed in general leaves it ouclassed by other wallbreakers like Mega Latios and Primal Groudon.
Hoopa-U is a decent shell smasher that still is imposter resistant (basically a deoxys-A clone in that regard) while being able to hit through protect. I think its overrated, but it has a niche.
you may post about anything in the op in this thread! I am still working on this which is why the speed tier list is empty among others, but I will soon open the floor for discussion on not only the VR, but rating teams here to add to our Team Vault, any questions about our official BH analyses and more!
Backup Plan (Mewtwo-Mega-Y) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Protean
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Secret Sword
- Frost Breath
- King's Shield
- Magma Storm

One of Many (Mewtwo-Mega-Y) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Protean
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Spiky Shield
- Psystrike
- Magma Storm
- Frost Breath

Odd one out (Mewtwo-Mega-X) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Contrary
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- V-create
- Superpower
- Extreme Speed
- Draco Meteor

PLZ nerf (Rayquaza-Mega) @ Lum Berry
Ability: Aerilate
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Extreme Speed
- King's Shield
- Boomburst
- Magma Storm

Caliburn (Aegislash) @ Leftovers
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Heart Swap
- Baton Pass
- Heal Order
- Substitute

Cosplay Champion (Pikachu-Cosplay) @ Light Ball
Ability: Imposter
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Whirlwind
- Extreme Speed
- Fake Out
- Volt Switch

MMX is your main sweeper, getting stronger and stronger every turn until it finally becomes unwallable. Aegislash is its complement- it walls MMX no mqatter how boosted it gets, stopping imposter. The two protean mewtwos are generic shedinaj killers+offensive core, but with the added bonus of killing impostered MRay that has been passed boosts. MRay revenge kills and breaks some walls, while pikachu turns the opponent's wincon against them unless they imposterproof with immunities.

Arceus (Arceus-Fairy) @ Safety Goggles
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Mild Nature
- Nature Power
- Quiver Dance
- Spore
- Leech Seed

Fak Chansey (Gengar-Mega) @ Spooky Plate
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Substitute
- Judgment
- Secret Sword
- Quiver Dance

Mewtwo-Mega-Y @ Focus Sash
Ability: Protean
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Moonblast
- Magma Storm
- King's Shield
- Secret Sword

Mewtwo-Mega-Y @ Focus Sash
Ability: Protean
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Frost Breath
- King's Shield
- Magma Storm
- Psystrike

Rayquaza-Mega @ Safety Goggles
Ability: Aerilate
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Extreme Speed
- King's Shield
- Magma Storm
- Boomburst

Aegislash @ Safety Goggles
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Soft-Boiled
- Parting Shot
- Stealth Rock
- Leech Seed

The goal of this team is to set up for a MGar sweep. Obviously, it isn't easy, so spore spam was required to remove them from play. The MMY sets are to wear down walls- actually beating them is unnecessary, it's the chip that is required. Aegislash is team support- it walls all the mons on my team bar MGar, sets up rocks, and acts as a generic pivot. MRay is my Go-To rker (its just the best in the tier atm), and arceus is yet another imposter resistant wincon.

Rayquaza-Mega @ Safety Goggles
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Spore
- Oblivion Wing
- Tail Glow
- Magma Storm

Mewtwo-Mega-Y @ Focus Sash
Ability: Protean
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Magma Storm
- Ice Beam
- King's Shield
- Secret Sword

Diancie-Mega @ Life Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Head Smash
- Light of Ruin
- Magma Storm
- King's Shield

Rayquaza-Mega @ Sky Plate
Ability: Aerilate
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Boomburst
- King's Shield
- Extreme Speed
- Close Combat

Aegislash @ Leftovers
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Baton Pass
- Heart Swap
- Substitute
- Heal Order

Rayquaza-Mega @ Safety Goggles
Ability: Gale Wings
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Substitute
- Oblivion Wing
- Tail Glow
- Magma Storm

MRay spam feat MMY! Each mray has different checks and counters, so the main goal is to keep the opponent guessing. Whats more, each set is good on its own so it isn't like they are solely lures. Aegislash is my standard imposterproofer, but these sets have the major advantage of actually beating normal FF Aegi, and are only countered due to goggles and heart swap. Diancie disguises itself as an ate during team preview (as its far and away the most common diancie set), meaning that after I reveal a GW and prankster MRay they are pretty much unprepared for the aerilate attacks, while at the same time being a great wallbreaker.

Tyranitar-Mega @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Sacred Fire
- Knock Off
- Shift Gear
- King's Shield

Diancie-Mega @ Life Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Head Smash
- Light of Ruin
- Magma Storm
- King's Shield

Mewtwo-Mega-X @ Focus Sash
Ability: Contrary
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- V-create
- Superpower
- Extreme Speed
- Draco Meteor

Rayquaza-Mega @ Lum Berry
Ability: Aerilate
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Extreme Speed
- King's Shield
- Boomburst
- Magma Storm

Aegislash @ Leftovers
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Heart Swap
- Baton Pass
- Heal Order
- Substitute

Chansey @ Eviolite
Ability: Imposter
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Spd / 252 Def
Hasty Nature
- Whirlwind
- Recover
- Fake Out
- Metal Burst

This is a team made for the post protean metagame, and its been hugely succesful. PH ttar is one of the best mons now, and as its not weak to imposter its extremely useful for cracking other flash fire aegislash. That selfsame Aegislash is the most common imposterproofer in the metagame, so I can use it to wall my team and the opponents while still being able to break through. MMX is contrary and thus an excellent wincon vs offense, while chansey does as chansey does. As seems to be a thing for me, I have Diancie as the magic guarder and MRay as an -ate rather than -ate Diancie and GW Mray, and it rarely fails to catch people off guard.
 
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I have a question, sorry if this isn't the place to ask. What is the justification for using mons like mega latios and dialga? Why use them over stuff like mmy which can break basically whatever you need it to by running the right set?
 
I have a question, sorry if this isn't the place to ask. What is the justification for using mons like mega latios and dialga? Why use them over stuff like mmy which can break basically whatever you need it to by running the right set?
The regular BH thread is probably better, but here, I'll explain. For Latios:
1. Its stronger. Soul dew is +50% spa, which is pretty huge, notably 2hkoing chansey at +0
2. Its bulkier. Its 50% spd as well, which means it can do things like live a super effective earth power from MMY after kings sheilding
3. It has a better starting type, and can use things other than protean, so if you already have 2 proteans it can be great.

For Dialga, you can perfectly Imposterpoof (sub+dd), it doesn't stack starting weaknesses, and it has some nice resistances- it can do things like switch into/check aerilate much more easily. Its also not completely reliant on kings shield, and thus has an extra slot. It's attack also goes through protect, and has an absurd BP.
 
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Arceus, regardless of ability, cannot lose its held plate. It cannot be given a plate as well
Might want to reframe this to "attempting to transfer a Plate to it, such as by Bestow or Switcheroo, will also fail". Currently this sounds like you're not allowed to give Arceus a Plate in the Teambuilder.

I'd probably also make clearer the point that using different Arceus Forme's is always purely aesthetic, with typing being solely determined by its Plate or lack thereof. You're clearly trying to describe that in the OP, but it's very confusingly framed.

Incidentally, I considered saying this in the thread for suspects and all, but it felt off-topic -the long, legalese attempt to describe what is appropriate/inappropriate in Balanced Hackmons in that thread's OP sounds to me like a long-winded way of saying "The (whatever) has a severe negative impact on the ability of players to plan, at the teambuilding level and/or within the battle itself".

Like, Imposter Chansey is powerful and centralizing, but you can plan for it nearly perfectly. A Secret Sword Spooky Plate Judgment Mega Gengar is only not completely Imposter-proof because some Chansey elect to carry a Plate to counter it. Indeed, you can plan for Imposter so thoroughly that you get stuff like Magnet Pull Xerneas paired with a Dialga whose only offensive effects are Doom Desire and a Dragon move (Usually it's Contrary Draco Meteor, but the details are irrelevant to the point) to deliberately bait out an Imposter, trap them, and setup on them in complete safety before KOing them and very possibly sweeping their team.

Whereas a lot of things banned impinge on planning ability in one or both of two ways -Huge/Pure Power on something like Mega Rayquaza is just obscene, making it difficult to produce a wall with enough Physical bulk to act as any kind of check without turning to Fur Coat, but it also has the obnoxious potential to turn pretty much anything with an even halfway decent Attack score into a Physical sweeper out of nowhere, removing the ability to plan around the idea that some strongly Specially oriented attacker can't possibly get past your epic Special wall (That isn't weak to Secret Sword or Psystrike, I mean) without doing something silly like Belly Drumming. (Which will in turn give you time to switch in your Physical wall)

Trapping Abilities of course outright remove a critical choice from the opponent -if you're trapped without any relevant escape effects (U-Turn, Baton Pass, being a Ghost, etc) then you're stuck with just your four moves, and it's all too easy to combine trapping Abilities with other choice-limiting effects ie Trick-Choice. Once a Pokemon is Trick-Choiced and held in place by Shadow Tag, only one player is even a real participant in the match, and it's just too easy to make happen. (Where Mean Look/etc-based trapping is kind of a bad joke, easily avoided most of the time)

And of course the Primals are simply too diverse -not too powerful, too diverse. Mega Rayquaza broke Ubers, but so far it's stayed in Balanced Hackmons, probably in no small part because you can essentially assumed it's a straightforward attacker. No "Surprise! It's a Poison Heal wall! A good one!" from Mega Rayquaza. If Primal Groudon can literally do anything, how are you supposed to plan for it? Even something like "bring Aqua Jet/Water Shuriken" isn't reliable against it, because Desolate Land shuts off attempts to pick on its biggest weakness.

I'm not super-familiar with the BH scene, though, so maybe I'm just going to get booed down by people who are super-familiar with BH. Just my impression/feedback.
 
does doom desire use the spatk of the mon that used it or the mon that is out right now?
Is doom desire effected by normalize?
last time I checked doom desire bypasses unaware, is this intended?
If a +X spatk mon switches out before a doom desire hits is the boost applied to doom desire?
 

sin(pi)

lucky n bad
does doom desire use the spatk of the mon that used it or the mon that is out right now?
Is doom desire effected by normalize?
last time I checked doom desire bypasses unaware, is this intended?
If a +X spatk mon switches out before a doom desire hits is the boost applied to doom desire?
It uses the SpA of the mon that used it. If a +X mon switches out, the boost isn't applied. Notably if Imposter Chansey uses DD:
-if it stays in, it uses the SpA of Dialga (ie base 150), plus any boosts from tail glow, etc
-if it switches out, it uses Chansey's own base 35 SpA, at +0 (ie barely does anything)
I don't know if it's supposed to bypass unaware or if it's affected by normalize; I'd guess that it wasn't supposed to bypass unaware, though.
 
Worth noting that with moody becoming more common, Hoopa-U is the only pokemon that can switch o a moody mmy and hit past its sub, kings shield and evasion boosts for a clean OHKO.
It also has a good mixed adapt set since dark is a great offensive typing in BH and Psycho boost hits dark resists really hard.

So I did some testing with doom desire on showdown to add to what sin(pi) said.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/balancedhackmons-371870864
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/balancedhackmons-371872218

- Not affected by normalize, at all.
- Doesn't bypass unaware anymore, doesn't bypass opponents' boost either.
- Oddly enough, tinted lens works, but adapt doesn't. Tinted lens doesn't work if Dialga switches out.

Also P11, you should probably add like a description of something for theses teams.

EDIT: No you can't use fury on any mon. It's a simple test really, would have taken you less time to do it than to write than one line.
 
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  • Mega Pokemon cannot Mega into themselves. This does not exclude Charizard-Mega or Mewtwo-Mega Mega Evolving to their alternate Mega form with the right stone
The wording on this passage is confusing and, from my understanding, incorrect. "Does not exclude" is a double negative which essentially amounts to "includes", so this passage is saying that Charizard-Mega and Mewtwo-Mega can't Mega Evolve manually into their alternate Mega Forme. However, I am relatively sure this is not the case.


I'm assuming that the word choice was accidental and either meant to say "does not include" or "excludes", unless I am misunderstanding something.
 
For the VR, I would like to suggest that Chansey should be placed in S+ again. Imposter dominates the meta, while Fur Coat sets are becoming increasingly common as well and acts as one of the best blanket checks to deal with various threats again. Yes there is Shell Smash Mega Gengar and Judgement shenanigans as a whole, but these tactics could be countered if Chansey runs Spooky Plate (which is becoming standard now). It completely makes the meta revolve around it, and is way more influential and centralizing compared to the other S-Ranks to warrant its own sub-division imo.

Also, wasn't it discovered that Chansey can use Hyperspace Fury? If so, than why is Hoopa-U in C? It gets destroyed by -ate and its mediocre speed in general leaves it ouclassed by other wallbreakers like Mega Latios and Primal Groudon.
I'm definitely supporting Chansey to S+. I think I have little to add here, the entire BH metagame revolves around Chansey. S+ is only used on metagames centralized around one Pokémon where S+ fits the centralizing mon, and Chansey fits that definition perfectly.
 
Yes Chansey belongs to S+

  1. Chansey can run any Plate to get a type on Judgement
  2. Chansey can run Shed Shell to get out of trappers
  3. You can run multiple Chanseys
  4. Many other support options
 
Yes Chansey belongs to S+

  1. Chansey can run any Plate to get a type on Judgement
  2. Chansey can run Shed Shell to get out of trappers
  3. You can run multiple Chanseys
  4. Many other support options
Shed shell/plate chansey is outdone by blissey. These should not be part of the justification for Chansey's rise. Likewise you can run multiple of any mon so I fail to see the relevance of being able to run multiple chansey.
 
Shed shell/plate chansey is outdone by blissey. These should not be part of the justification for Chansey's rise. Likewise you can run multiple of any mon so I fail to see the relevance of being able to run multiple chansey.
Chansey is actually considered better with a plate or Shed Shell, as while you forfeit a small amount of HP, you make your opponent assume you're Eviolite which allows you to lure them out
 
Chansey is actually considered better with a plate or Shed Shell, as while you forfeit a small amount of HP, you make your opponent assume you're Eviolite which allows you to lure them out
I consider Evolite much much better, nevertheless these are options.

Once i saw an Imposter Chansey got 1HKOed by a M-Ray, i did not believe until i calced;
252 SpA Life Orb Mega Rayquaza Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Rayquaza: 704-834 (100 - 118.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO


Shed shell/plate chansey is outdone by blissey. These should not be part of the justification for Chansey's rise. Likewise you can run multiple of any mon so I fail to see the relevance of being able to run multiple chansey.
I agree, i never used plate Chansey. However i used a Prankster Chansey to get voting requirements, there is definitly more it can run
except the standart Imposter / Fur Coat.

I saw many Chanseys come in a pair of two, both the Fur Coat and the Imposter, i think this simply explains it.
 
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The wording on this passage is confusing and, from my understanding, incorrect. "Does not exclude" is a double negative which essentially amounts to "includes", so this passage is saying that Charizard-Mega and Mewtwo-Mega can't Mega Evolve manually into their alternate Mega Forme. However, I am relatively sure this is not the case.


I'm assuming that the word choice was accidental and either meant to say "does not include" or "excludes", unless I am misunderstanding something.
Technically, the wording is correct. While it is confusing, the statement says that This (Mega Pokemon cannot Mega into themselves) does not exclude (doesn't stop them from) Charizard-Mega or Mewtwo-Mega from Mega Evolving to their alternate Mega form with the right stone. It could probably use a from where I added one, but it does stand.
I'm definitely supporting Chansey to S+. I think I have little to add here, the entire BH metagame revolves around Chansey. S+ is only used on metagames centralized around one Pokémon where S+ fits the centralizing mon, and Chansey fits that definition perfectly.
I don't think Chansey should be S+ at all.
First off, it isn't better than the other S-Ranks, or much better. The S-Rank isn't crowded, either, so it isn't that there isn't enough emphasis on it.
Secondly, the entire metagame revolving around isn't an automatic pass to the best mon, or else Shedinja would be there. There is precedent elsewhere as well-
every ou team must be prepared for Sableye, every stallbreaker must beat it, and it is on almost every single stall team, yet it isn't even S-Rank. The same can be said for talonflame, despite it 6-0ing many otherwise viable teams, having many great sets, and invalidating entire archetypes.
Thirdly, I'd like to challenge the fact that its even overwhelmingly viable. To me, it's the worst or second worse of the S-Ranks (assuming protean doesn't get the boot), just because of how overprepared the metagame is for it. In fact, every single team has some, often multiple, and occasionally foolproof ways of dealing with it. The metagame isn't very kind to it at the moment, and it isn't terribly threatening to most teams.
 
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