Balanced Hackmons Central

AWailOfATail

viva la darmz
I could maybe see it returning to C+
please :) all I really want is it to go back to where it was tbh; I still don't necessarily agree with some other parts but that ends up coming down to personal opinion.

What? That has everything to do with how cresselia should be ranked. If it's never the best solution, it shouldn't even be ranked. It's why blissey, despite being effective, isn't ranked- any circumstance under which you'd want to use blissey, chansey is completely or mostly better.
Maybe I wasn't clear (certainly an possibility). Mega Latias being higher absolutely does affect Cresselia's viability. However, Cresselia's performance in battle isn't dependent on Mega Latias' existence. Its usage is, but not its performance (I guess technically they're sort of correlated but not nearly as much usage).Whether Cresselia moves up to C+ or stays in C, it won't change the way it performs when I use it.
That's the point I was making, at least: just because Mega Latias exists doesn't mean that Cresselia suddenly becomes bad in some (SOME) aspects, just outclassed.

Also quick side note: Cress is physically bulkier than Mega Latias so it's got that going for it too from a stats standpoint
 
You were fighting a bad player, so I'm not sure how it is relevant. dragon pulse, for instance, is totally outclassed by special rend or coverage.

Just to nitpick, but Dragon Pulse has double the PP and 100% accuracy. So, it's better when you want Dragon-type damage for whatever reason and are in it for the long haul. Lati prefers does Spacial 95 times out of a 100, though, and most other Pokemon probably do.
 
No the player was good, someone familiar but i dont remember...

Same issue with Steam Eruption vs Scald.
Although here the power difference is twice as big.

Another poke i expect to drop is Ho-oh. It has been used 3x times more in phase 1 than 2.
It can not stop Diancle, M-Ray, Stealth Rock takes its ability, if he takes Brave Bird he lose to Imposter,
limited offense and risky in defence. I never understood how something 4x Rock weak can check a Rock type.
B+ to B-.
 

AWailOfATail

viva la darmz
Steam Eruption has the same problem as Spacial Rend: low PP. I'm personally running Scald over Steam Eruption on my PH Kyogre because I simply couldn't live with only 8 Water attacks. Since I have boosting anyway, the BP isn't much of a problem for me.

Ho-Oh probably should drop, yeah. It was great at countering Protean, but now that Protean's gone, it's not quite as useful. Still, I'd push for B instead of B-. Yes, it struggles against Mega Ray. Yes, it struggles against Imposter (but it's more of a stalemate than anything else). Yes, Stealth Rock is annoying. However, none of that has really changed at all from before Protean; I don't really see why the drop in rank should be so big.

Oh, and since you were wondering how Ho-Oh can check a Rock type, the short answer is that Diancie doesn't run Rock STAB a good amount of the time; only around 1/7 of them carry Diamond Storm. Of course, when it does carry Diamond Storm, it beats Ho-Oh, but it then loses out on a coverage slot to beat Steel types.
 

sin(pi)

lucky n bad
No the player was good, someone familiar but i dont remember...

Same issue with Steam Eruption vs Scald.
Although here the power difference is twice as big.

Another poke i expect to drop is Ho-oh. It has been used 3x times more in phase 1 than 2.
It can not stop Diancle, M-Ray, Stealth Rock takes its ability, if he takes Brave Bird he lose to Imposter,
limited offense and risky in defence. I never understood how something 4x Rock weak can check a Rock type.
B+ to B-.
Diancie doesn't run a rock type move, normally, since rock/fairy isn't amazing coverage (shoutouts InfernapeTropius11). It obviously needs to run Magic Guard if it wants to check Diancie, though.

edit: ninja'd somewhat
 

Uselesscrab

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Ok discussion seems to have stalled but I have reached the following decisions:

Cresselia up to C+ (was C)
Chansey will stay in S
Ho-oh down to B- (was B+)
Alphabetical order is probably a good idea (was too lazy)

I would like to hear more discussion of how these rankings should change, especially with regard to the Protean ban. For instance, should Mega Mewtwo Y drop? Also AWailOfATail I would like to hear the argument for dropping Slaking that you previously mentioned.
 

AWailOfATail

viva la darmz
Strictly comparing Slaking to its counterpart, Regigigas:

Slaking: 150/160/100/95/65/100
Regigigas: 110/160/110/80/110/100
In terms of attacking prowess and Speed, they are exactly the same. (ok yes slaking has higher SpA but please don't)

The only difference between these two lies in their bulk.

0 Atk Mew Zen Headbutt vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Slaking: 87-103 (19.7 - 23.3%) -- possible 5HKO
0 SpA Mew Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Slaking: 138-163 (31.2 - 36.9%) -- 76.7% chance to 3HKO

0 Atk Mew Zen Headbutt vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Regigigas: 79-94 (21.8 - 26%) -- 4.7% chance to 4HKO
0 SpA Mew Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Regigigas: 90-106 (24.9 - 29.3%) -- 100% chance to 4HKO


Clearly, Regigigas is more specially bulky but Slaking is more physically bulky.


4 SpA Sky Plate Aerilate Mega Rayquaza Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Slaking: 556-655 (110.3 - 129.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
4 SpA Sky Plate Aerilate Mega Rayquaza Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Regigigas: 361-426 (85.1 - 100.4%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

This is an incredibly important survival point. Meanwhile,

252+ Atk Sky Plate Aerilate Mega Rayquaza Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Slaking: 288-339 (57.1 - 67.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Sky Plate Aerilate Mega Rayquaza Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Regigigas: 264-312 (62.2 - 73.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

ESpeed still 2HKOs both of them.
That was just a sample calc to show comparable bulk; not trying to say that MegaRay is the only calc worth noting.

Overall, Slaking is not by any means unviable. In terms of Regigigas, though, Slaking's mediocre special bulk leaves it prey to many threats that can live an ESpeed. On the other hand, Regigigas may not be as physically bulky, but 110/110/110 is nowhere close to "frail."
Regigigas is a better pick for a bulky attacker, while Slaking is better as a physically bulky attacker. Both of them are still solid options, but on a whole, Regigigas a better pick without having quite as prevalent weaknesses.
Slaking in B- would be better, in my opinion; if the two seem too similar to separate them in viability, that's understandable as well.
 
I would think almost the opposite as AWailOfATail - slaking is better than regigigas. Don't get me wrong- from a purely bulky perspective, regigigas has the lead. The important part, however, is where that bulk lies.
As far as bulk goes, HP is far superior to defense and special defense for a reason- Chansey. Comparatively, slaking does far better vs imposters- you can even run, say, a bellyspeed unburden set, or just not worry so much about being KOd. Additionally, the metagame is heavily physically offensive, and while it may not live 2 max sky plate speeds, it can live partially invested ones, ones without an item, or diancie so- which aren't that uncommon at all.

MMY needs to drop- Sheer force tinted lens, moody, and no guard are all far inferior to protean sets, and while it is by no means bad it no longer lives up to the hype. For instance, it now loses to imposters while also failing to beat MRay reliably and generally failing at breaking open cores not weak to its spammed attacks.
 

AWailOfATail

viva la darmz
I would think almost the opposite as AWailOfATail - slaking is better than regigigas. Don't get me wrong- from a purely bulky perspective, regigigas has the lead. The important part, however, is where that bulk lies.
As far as bulk goes, HP is far superior to defense and special defense for a reason- Chansey. Comparatively, slaking does far better vs imposters- you can even run, say, a bellyspeed unburden set, or just not worry so much about being KOd. Additionally, the metagame is heavily physically offensive, and while it may not live 2 max sky plate speeds, it can live partially invested ones, ones without an item, or diancie so- which aren't that uncommon at all.
Alright, fair enough; hadn't considered Imposter. Even so, neither of them struggle with it too badly in the first place; Facade HURTS. And I'm still not quite sure that the special bulk sacrifice is worth it, but I guess it depends.
The way I see it, they're honestly pretty much like two different ice cream flavors: I like Regigigas but I can respect your Slaking. Either way, they're probably too similar to differentiate: taking back my proposal for Slaking to B-.

I'm fine with MMY dropping one rank. However, I don't think it's fair to say it always loses to Imposter simply because of its versatility. A set that's not quite as popular, but still used, is its Focus Energy + Sniper set, and Imposter REALLY struggles dealing with that without Lucky Punch. Imposter dislikes switching into any MMY set anyway, so MMY can still put up a fight against Imposters without Protean. But overall, yeah, the lack of Protean definitely killed off some of its viability.
 
I would like to nominate Groudon to B or B-

I feel like Groudon is definitely a viable and good pokemon to use in the current metagame. As of right now it's most common sets are Soundproof, Fur Coat, and to a lesser extent, Poison Heal. What makes Groudon unique over other Soundproof and Fur Coat mons and in general is Thousand Waves and Thousand Arrows. Not only do these two STAB moves provide good damage they also have amazing secondary effects, allowing Groudon to trap opposing mons or hit over 90% of the entire metagame for neutral damage respectively.

With its fantastic physical bulk Groudon is able to trap and kill most physical attackers with its Fur Coat set using Leech Seed and sometimes Will-O-Wisp, including certain mons such as Tyranitar, Garchomp and Primal Groudon that Giratina cannot wall thanks to their STAB or because of 4MSS such as with Primal Groudon as Giratina can't afford to but run a switching move as it kills momentum for offense on top of a trapping move, Leech Seed and a recovery move. Groudon on the other hand doesn't lose momentum as it's STAB Thousand Waves still do a good chunk of damage uninvested. It's soundproof set is also a very nice check to Aerilate and Pixilate as most of them do not carry Techno Blast or coverage to hit Ground.

Alongside its excellent bulk Groudon also has access to a great attack stat. It can afford to run a Shift Gear set with mono Thousand Arrows since that is all it needs to hit almost everything relevant in the meta neutrally. I have been running a Taunt set that has been successful with all credits to Nyan Kat but unfortunately I didn't save any replays so I can't really elaborate more and I don't want people to start running checks to it. Anyways, because of its great bulk, it cannot be revenge killed by Rayquaza or Diancie after a Shift Gear since Groudon outspeeds the both of them and a +1 Thousand Arrows can kill off a weakened Rayquaza and OHKOs Diancie. Also it still has 2 other moves because all you really need to sweep is Shift Gear and Thousand Arrows.

I do hope that you can see my reasoning why Groudon deserves a better rank than C. Just to summarise; Groudon's great bulk and access to Thousand Arrows and Thousand Waves makes it a great physical wall with nice offensive pressure and pretty good utility with it's very spammable and amazing STAB. It can trap a lot of physical attackers and set up and sweep with just one coverage move in Thousand Arrows. It can't be revenge killed by common -ates thanks to its physical bulk.

However despite all of this Groudon is held back by the omnipresent Giratina which really decrease it's viability and why I don't think it deserves a higher rank. While it has a good attack stat it is overshadowed by some other sweepers in terms of power such as Tyranitar and Regigigas despite its access to STAB Thousand Arrows. All in all while Groudon is definitely not the best wall or sweeper, it's good niche in very spammable STABs is enough for it to deserve B- or even B.

Edit: wow I can't believe I just wrote a whole essay on a pokemon lol I originally thought I would post 2 paragraphs to move Groudon up but I didn't expect this to turn out so long.
 

morogrim

( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
I'd like to talk about bumping up the viability ranking of the Poison Heal sweepers except for Mega Ttar by 1 or 2 ranks (namely Mega Gyarados, Kyogre, and maybe Mega Garchomp). The reasons I'm about to state will vary for each of them actually but they all do share one common theme: usage increase as a result of the Protean ban. Many players have been resorting to PH sweepers as a replacement to their Protean user since they are arguably the next best thing atm. This being said, each of the mentioned mons do have individual reasons as well which are actually a bit related to the Protean ban:

- Mega Gyarados: With the decline in some of the faster threats in the meta such as Mmx and Mmy (as a result of the Protean ban), Mega Gyarados is actually better now as it has more opportunities to set up. In addition, with the increased usage of Mega Ttar (since it's pretty much the most popular PH sweeper), Mega Gyarados is definitely a great choice since it forces it out and can set up on it. Additionally, it takes FakeSpeeds from Mega Ray (and non CC Kyub) and can retaliate with a STAB Koff if it boosts once with Shift Gear which is something that Mega Ttar can do as well (and a better job at it actually) but I'm mentioning this because Mega Gyarados can also do this in addition to being able to check Mega Ttar. Mega Gyarados also checks non-Moonblast/Freeze Dry PHogre which is something that Mega Ttar cannot do. Mega Gyarados can also take on Ho-Oh and even 1v1 non-Normalize Mega Gengar as it takes any 1 move from it and OHKOs back with Koff which is nice.

- Kyogre: This mon imo deserves at least an A- especially after the Protean ban since it is just so good atm. It can take almost any unboosted move from any mon which shows how bulky it is. The bulky PH spread can even take a +3 Owing from Mega Ray (although not very well, but it still takes it) and retaliate with an Ice Beam for the OHKO. I wouldn't call this mon a Mega Ttar check as it won't be taking 2x +1 Dstorms, but it can set up on Mega Ttar if both mons are unboosted. It also does a good job at beating any -ate user since it can be EV'd to take any non-specs Boomburst or a FakeSpeed combo and hit back with a Scald or Ice Beam (if the -ate user is Mega Diancie or Mega Ray, respectively). Once again, this is thanks to the decline in the usage of faster threats such as Mmy and Mmx that these slower PH users have become more viable to use. Oh, this guy can also check Ho-Oh which is neat.

- Mega Garchomp: This guy is basically more viable now because of the increase in popularity for other threats believe it or not. After Toxic Orb has been activated, this guy can switch into Mega Ttar (even if it's +1) and actually set up on it which is absolutely crazy. Mega Garchomp also serves as a pretty decent check to the rising star, Primal Groudon as it can take a +1 V-Create and OHKO back with Tarrows after Pdon gets the drop in Def. Mega Garchomp also has the added benefit of being the strongest physical Ground-type (Pdon does not get to choose an ability or item while Chomp can) and can immediately threaten all of the common Steel walls in the meta, which is not something that the other PH sweepers can necessarily do (Mega Ttar only threatens Aegislash but not really Registeel for example). In addition, Mega Garchomp can also check Ho-Oh and 1v1 non-Normalize Mega Gengar as it can take 1 unboosted Judgment and OHKO back with Tarrows.

Note: There are other PH users that I have tested such as Mega Swampert and Groudon, but these are basically alternatives to Mega Garchomp and are generally chosen over Garchomp to serve a specific niche (for example, Mega Swampert can still check Pdon while being able to take on Pixilate-boosted FakeSpeeds and Fairy moves in general and also Ice moves bar Freeze Dry) and thus have been omitted from this list.
 
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In my opinion, the two mega forms of mewtwo really shouldnt be in such a high rank, basically because they both have quite a lot of flaws and needs a lot of team support to make it run properly after protean is banned. mega mewtwo x has a rather mediocre bulk, and its typing makes it OHKOed by a lot of common priorities from threats like mega diancie or mega rayquaza, stopping it from sweeping effectively even if it manages to set up. mega mewtwo y is frail on the physical side, which also makes it difficult to switch in. Even if they manage to set up via quiver dance/shift gear/contrary, they are still limited to the small coverages and can still be walled by pokemon that avoids the coverages. They cannot get a good priority for themselves, which makes them pretty vulnerable to prankster considering how hard it is to set up a substitute in the metagame. At last, they have no ways other than substitute to beat chansey, when mega mewtwo x at best results in a speed tie and mega mewtwo y with a great chance losing.
 
In my opinion, the two mega forms of mewtwo really shouldnt be in such a high rank, basically because they both have quite a lot of flaws and needs a lot of team support to make it run properly after protean is banned. mega mewtwo x has a rather mediocre bulk, and its typing makes it OHKOed by a lot of common priorities from threats like mega diancie or mega rayquaza, stopping it from sweeping effectively even if it manages to set up. mega mewtwo y is frail on the physical side, which also makes it difficult to switch in. Even if they manage to set up via quiver dance/shift gear/contrary, they are still limited to the small coverages and can still be walled by pokemon that avoids the coverages. They cannot get a good priority for themselves, which makes them pretty vulnerable to prankster considering how hard it is to set up a substitute in the metagame. At last, they have no ways other than substitute to beat chansey, when mega mewtwo x at best results in a speed tie and mega mewtwo y with a great chance losing.
I think that they should be lower as well, but this isn't true.
They aren't easily walled- MMY only has niche counters for its two sets, and Contrary is horrific to switch into, as very little walls all of superpower/V-create/PBlades/Koff/Draco Meteor- they are getting smacked by something. You, meanwhile, only need to wall 3 or 4 of them, so it isn't even impossible to improof.
Priority is far from required, especially since Kings Sheild allows MMY to 1v1 both fakespeeders.
MMY can run spore or sniper sets, while MMX has mold breaker (SR/pursuit/LK/spore), contrary leech seed, and pivot moves.

TL;DR: the mewtwo's are some of the weaker mons in their rank, and maybe should go down 1, but they aren't bad at all.
 

Uselesscrab

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I moved Mega Garchomp up to B+, Mega Gyarados up to B+, and Kyogre up to A- based on morogrim's post. I would like to hear more discussion on the Mewtwo formes.

Also using this post to announce that the links in the viability rankings are up to date with recently written analyses, including the Groudon analysis, which took over a year to complete!
 
I think that they should be lower as well, but this isn't true.
They aren't easily walled- MMY only has niche counters for its two sets, and Contrary is horrific to switch into, as very little walls all of superpower/V-create/PBlades/Koff/Draco Meteor- they are getting smacked by something. You, meanwhile, only need to wall 3 or 4 of them, so it isn't even impossible to improof.
Priority is far from required, especially since Kings Sheild allows MMY to 1v1 both fakespeeders.
MMY can run spore or sniper sets, while MMX has mold breaker (SR/pursuit/LK/spore), contrary leech seed, and pivot moves.

TL;DR: the mewtwo's are some of the weaker mons in their rank, and maybe should go down 1, but they aren't bad at all.
in my opinion, mega lati@s does the contrary stuff way better than mega mewtwos, and while MMY can do spore, it can be blocked by MB or simply by goggles especially when most players tend to switch in a defensive pokemon instead of a glass cannon. sniper set... just rip it
 
in my opinion, mega lati@s does the contrary stuff way better than mega mewtwos, and while MMY can do spore, it can be blocked by MB or simply by goggles especially when most players tend to switch in a defensive pokemon instead of a glass cannon. sniper set... just rip it
Mega latios doesn't do physical contrary better than MMX at all. Additionally, MMY can take on pixi- and refridge- revenge killers.
The most common switch in for MMY is Chansey, because it and shedinja are the only Pokemon that can switch in. Chansey almost always runs imposter or FC, making spore a crippling move, while shedinja is at least neutralized unless it's a weather shed. Specifically, it allows MMY to handle imposters and handle common mons, all with one move.

Not sure what you mean by just rip it.
 
MMX deserves his rank.
It has highest base stats and useful typing.
It can beat those many struggle to deal with. (Chansey, T-tar and Registeel)

I consider it the strongest poke of all 1on1.


MMY is overrated now.
Both its best sets got dictated away. B+ for me.
It is less useful than either Gengar or Sceptile.

Use it as Poison Heal annoyer.
 

morogrim

( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
Alright so here are my two cents on mmy and mmx, but before I get to that I would also like to mention that while usage and viability do not mean the same thing, they certainly are correlated (players do not start using specific mons/sets for no reason lol). A good portion of my arguments will include this logic in it along with a little bit of talking about their "viable" sets.

-Mega Mewtwo Y (mmy):

After the Protean ban, mmy saw a vast drop in usage. This was mainly due to the fact that mmy's best possible ability was taken away from it. Being the strongest special attacker in the meta along with a really good Speed tier meant that it was undoubtedly one of the best Protean users out there; additionally, Protean also allowed mmy to bypass its weaknesses which were poor general typing (both offensively and defensively) and also its frail defense which would have left it open to easily getting revenge killed. Currently, mmy's closest set to its Protean wallbreaker set is the Sheer Force LO one, which still does its job at wallbreaking very well but fails to cover the 2 main weaknesses that mmy has. King's Shield can still help mmy prevent getting revenged but it's no longer a risk-free move as the user actually needs to win the mind games to keep mmy alive (before, using ks as a Protean user was completely risk-free as even if the opponent predicted ks correctly, he/she still could not revenge kill as the Protean user would keep its Steel typing for the following turn until it would use a move). Mmy still has other viable sets such as No Guard, Sniper, and even Tinted Lens; but to be fair none of them come close to being as good as Protean. For these reasons, I believe that mmy should not stay at A+ and should go down to either A- or B+. The reason for A- would be that mmy still does its job at wallbreaking on the same level as the Mega Latis, they still have more power while mmy has the higher Speed which allows it to defeat threats such as Mega Gengar in addition to being able to wallbreak. Although one might argue that mmy doesn't even deserve A- since the Mega Latis both have much more diverse sets while mmy is currently stuck with wallbreaking/sweeping sets. For me, both of these arguments are valid and it really depends on the "value" held for mmy's niche over the Mega Latis vs. its lack of diverse sets.


Mega Mewtwo X (mmx):

Similarly to mmy, mmx also saw a huge drop in usage after Protean was banned. Once again, being the strongest physical attacker in the game with the drawbacks of weak offensive and defensive typing (it has respectable bulk tbh, its typing is what makes it vulnerable to revenge killing not its bulk) meant that Protean was the perfect ability for mmx as it covered its weaknesses and allowed it to use its strengths (highest base Atk in the game along with an impressive base 130 Spe) to its full potential. Even though mmx suffered greatly from the Protean ban just like mmy, it still has its past niche sets which can still be used: Mold Breaker and Refrigerate. These two sets were used before the Protean ban (although admittedly they were not as popular as after the Protean ban for obvious reasons) and can still be used in the current meta. Being one of the only mons that is capable of OHKOing FC Chansey is no small achievement, which is exactly what the Mold Breaker set offers in addition to the usual Shedinja trapping capability. Refrigerate, while being a bit more gimmicky, allows mmx to outspeed its slower counterparts and be able to potentially revenge kill them. It's also one of the few -ate sets (if not the only one) that can 2HKO FC Chansey without being choice locked. It isn't really a lure anymore though as most players have learned to anticipate this set, but the main niches of the set still remain. One of the other differences between mmy and mmx is the fact that mmx can pull off a mixed attacker much better than mmy, which results in mmx having a surprise factor when used in battles as it is harder for players to know what set mmx is running for sure. For these reasons, I think that mmx still should not stay at A+ and should go down to either A or A-, depending on where mmy gets placed into. While mmx has not lost its former glory as much as mmy, it still undoubtedly lost its best possible ability and its viability ranking should reflect this. By having a higher rank than mmy, this also shows that mmx didn't take as big of a hit as mmy and still offers a diverse usage for players.
 
I'd like to make two nominations this time.
First: Primal Groudon to A+. As anyone who has fought this can attest, this thing is currently amazing. V-create nukes most of the balance in the metagame, -ate speed doesn't win after a shift gear, and Tarrows+V-create have perfect coverage bar abilities, or even including them throughout all viable mons. Sythesis is a great recovery option, sacred fire lets you have an imposterproof sweeper, thousand waves can trap, Precipice blades nukes without dropping stats... it fits on all offense and balance teams with a minimum of changed slots, and does it's role consistantly.

Mega Blaziken to B rank. This one is a lot less well known, but I've been using it and it does not dissapoint. Mold breaker and tinted lens sets have just about zero switchins, while contrary sets have a stronger v-create than MMX, which is on of contraries main selling points. It's also nuetral to Pixilate and resistant to Refridgerate, which makes up for its lackluster bulk compared with MMX. While sun support is required to reach it's full potential (and thus stops it from being slapped on a team), it isn't useless without it and has an absurd damage output within it (252+ Atk Choice Band Tinted Lens Mega Blaziken V-create vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Giratina in Sun: 538-634 (106.9 - 126%) -- guaranteed OHKO)
 
Quantum Tesseract How does sacred fire make an imposterproof sweeper, wat?

Anyway I completely support both of theses noms, Primadon is insanely powerful and most mons who resist his stabs can't even check it, let alone counter it. It's also super easy to play with because it has amazing bulk and typing so it's way easier for him to switch in mons compared to stuff like mmy or diancie. He has about 2-3 sets and legit all of them are amazing at what they do despite sometimes being hard to imposterproof (draco meteor groudon).

For Blaziken, I use it / see it very rarely, but from when I started using it for the kektus challenge (and that was quite a while ago) until now I don't think I've ever been disappointed by one of his sets. PranksterCat V-create was the set I used for kektus which can catch a lot of mons that want to RK him, like mmy or boomburst diancie, off guard. I remember using Pixi some time along the way which was also pretty good, but Tinted lens is by far its best set and just nukes like, everything. Fur Coat giratina can't even switch in under the sun and that's about as bulky as you get, and most of his counters are predictable and quite easy to pick off like aegislash with knock off etc...\

Anyway I just wanted to ask a question but wrote smt to support the nom. Especially groudon, that shit is insane.
 
Hi I'm a part of the GG (it may be confirmed or not idk) and I have some issues I'd like to address some problems I see with the viability rankings. Ill just go in order of what I think should be changed.

--> A: This one is probably the least likely to happen buy ya know what are you going to do... Tail Glow/Sub/Doom Desire/Roar with Soundproof. Counters? Well depends on how the user of Dialga plays it. If played correctly the only real counter is a Whirlwind mon that outspeeds Dialga so it doesn't get roared out, or a Prankster Regi/Aegi to play around with Encore and Topsy Turvy. Imposter has trouble beat it cause of Sub, and in most cases Dialga stalls out of pp. And when compared with mons in A- and A ranks, I think Dialga is better than all A- mons, and better than Mega Mewtwo X and possibly Mega Audino as far as effectiveness in its role goes.

--> B+: This mon is honestly only prepared for because Gira/Regi/Aegi are so commonly used for other threats. Aegi struggles with Regi because of Shadow Claw. Oh and if I didn't mention I'm focusing on the PH Shift Gear Facade/Shadow Claw/WoW set. Regi struggles at beating this as well if it doesn't have Encore/Topsy Turvy, and Gira can't break it without Metal Burst/Entrainment or Gastro Acid/Topsy Turvy. Why is this better than Slaking? The spdef. First it survives Ray's Fakespeed combo if Ray comes in to revenge kill when Regi is at 100% and has a shift gear up (this scenario is a lot more common than you would think). Boomburst is a roll for 4 investment with a bit of HP investment with Regi, you can do a bunch of customization with the set goes honestly.

--> B: Don't really use this mon but it's annoying to face when using -ate mons. It becomes easier to deal with once rocky helmet gets knocked off but until then you have to play safe or go for hax. It's a cool alternative to usual -ate counters and useful enough to warrant a raise.

--> B: Wow this thing is ranked crazy low. I mean really? It's mixed in with niche stuff like Cress and Palkia? First off it's moldy set is a very reliable answer to Shedinja and can get rocks up nice. Also a check to Ray because Dragon Ascent hits crazy hard. Next up Ive been trying to build around a Magic Guard LO set with Head Smash and Brave Bird and that hits like a fucking truck. Crazy wall breaking and can OHKO Gira. I look forward to using this more, and I don't see any reason for it not to be in the same rank as Slaking and Groudon.

--> B: Its better than Aggron and Metagross and I think those mons are fine in their respective ranks so please move it up to B. Same sets as Aegi/Regi with better defense and has a fun spider web set that's cool on certain teams.

--> C: Annnndddd there goes all credibility in this post. Since most of you are probably gonna skip this part anyway Ill make it short and sweet. Imposter Light Ball is honestly so unprepared for. Imposter Pdon 2HKOs non Fur Coat Gira with V-Create. Copying an -ate user is scary with Boomburst. Try it out, but don't play it like you would a Chansey.

That's it. Shout out to all my gooses.
 
Hi I'm a part of the GG (it may be confirmed or not idk) and I have some issues I'd like to address some problems I see with the viability rankings. Ill just go in order of what I think should be changed.

--> A: This one is probably the least likely to happen buy ya know what are you going to do... Tail Glow/Sub/Doom Desire/Roar with Soundproof. Counters? Well depends on how the user of Dialga plays it. If played correctly the only real counter is a Whirlwind mon that outspeeds Dialga so it doesn't get roared out, or a Prankster Regi/Aegi to play around with Encore and Topsy Turvy. Imposter has trouble beat it cause of Sub, and in most cases Dialga stalls out of pp. And when compared with mons in A- and A ranks, I think Dialga is better than all A- mons, and better than Mega Mewtwo X and possibly Mega Audino as far as effectiveness in its role goes.

--> B+: This mon is honestly only prepared for because Gira/Regi/Aegi are so commonly used for other threats. Aegi struggles with Regi because of Shadow Claw. Oh and if I didn't mention I'm focusing on the PH Shift Gear Facade/Shadow Claw/WoW set. Regi struggles at beating this as well if it doesn't have Encore/Topsy Turvy, and Gira can't break it without Metal Burst/Entrainment or Gastro Acid/Topsy Turvy. Why is this better than Slaking? The spdef. First it survives Ray's Fakespeed combo if Ray comes in to revenge kill when Regi is at 100% and has a shift gear up (this scenario is a lot more common than you would think). Boomburst is a roll for 4 investment with a bit of HP investment with Regi, you can do a bunch of customization with the set goes honestly.

--> B: Its better than Aggron and Metagross and I think those mons are fine in their respective ranks so please move it up to B. Same sets as Aegi/Regi with better defense and has a fun spider web set that's cool on certain teams.
I have to disagree with all of these, unfortunately. Dialga is consistantly mediocre, needing multiple turn to phaze out. Soundproof is also a bad set on it- something like Tinted Lense does far better. The reason its so poor is that it has so many walls- Chansey (non-imp), Registeel, Aegislash, M-Garchomp (dual chop through sub), Magic Bounce, Unaware, Shedinja... it doesn't even hit particularly hard, especially when compared with the likes of Lati@s. About its only saving grace is imposterproofing (either sub or magpull xern), and that's not enough to justify being in the same rank as MMX or Mega TTar.

That set on regigigas is consistantly mediocre, mostly because shadow claw is a terrible move, but also because WoW boosts facade and lets them KO you easily. Slaking is honestly equally good- as far as bulk goes, HP is far superior to defense and special defense for a reason- Chansey. Comparatively, Slaking does far better vs imposters- you can even run, say, a bellyspeed unburden set, or just not worry so much about being KOed. Additionally, the metagame is heavily physically offensive, and while it may not live 2 max sky plate speeds, it can live partially invested ones, ones without an item, or Diancie's, which aren't that uncommon at all. Slaking can also run a final gambit set (s/o motherlove ) which takes on Tina, something Regigigas fails at. It's perfectly fine where it is.

It might be better than Maggron, but its not better than MegaGross. Regen Metagross can actually take on Mega Rayquaza, Diancie, and Kyub, which Maggron and Mlix fail at (252 SpA Mega Rayquaza Magma Storm vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Mega Steelix: 140-166 (39.5 - 46.8%) -- 71.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Magma damage) without even getting into the specs sets that MGross checks better, or its speed tier and offensive pressure.

--> B: Don't really use this mon but it's annoying to face when using -ate mons. It becomes easier to deal with once rocky helmet gets knocked off but until then you have to play safe or go for hax. It's a cool alternative to usual -ate counters and useful enough to warrant a raise.

--> B: Wow this thing is ranked crazy low. I mean really? It's mixed in with niche stuff like Cress and Palkia? First off it's moldy set is a very reliable answer to Shedinja and can get rocks up nice. Also a check to Ray because Dragon Ascent hits crazy hard. Next up Ive been trying to build around a Magic Guard LO set with Head Smash and Brave Bird and that hits like a fucking truck. Crazy wall breaking and can OHKO Gira. I look forward to using this more, and I don't see any reason for it not to be in the same rank as Slaking and Groudon.


--> C: Annnndddd there goes all credibility in this post. Since most of you are probably gonna skip this part anyway Ill make it short and sweet. Imposter Light Ball is honestly so unprepared for. Imposter Pdon 2HKOs non Fur Coat Gira with V-Create. Copying an -ate user is scary with Boomburst. Try it out, but don't play it like you would a Chansey.

That's it. Shout out to all my gooses.
These, however, I agree with. Groudon is very good in the current metagame. Techno blast, specs sets and magma storm are annoying, but it's getting better and better.

Moldy is neat in my experience, and while i haven't run MGuard it doesn't seem much less effective than Diancie, which works extremely well.

This is where I Agree Completely. Pikachu is actually insane, and now that I'm using it again I wonder why I ever stopped. It sweeps offense, and has just enough stats to do its job, doing things like living a diancie extreme speed if you lose a tie. While it usually has to be paired up with another pikachu or a bulky glare user, it works extremely well, especially when used alongside stallbreakers like Specs Mray.





As far as my own noms go, I'd like to see what people think about Metagross to B rank and Kyurem Black to B rank. Metagross has been getting better and better, checking common MMY, MLati, MRay, Mdiancie, MAudino, MTtar, and arceus sets while not being particulalry weak to imposter. I'm not entirely certain, but it seems reasonable.
KYu-B, meanwhile, is one I've been thinking of for a while. It's not particularly good in the current metagame, beating exactly 2 pokemon in the entire A ranks (and only 4 in B). It's too slow, has a mediocre typing, can't abuse special boombursts or coverage, and has no lure sets (Physical/special GW, prankster, and contrary for ray, MGuard for diancie). Overall, it's just not that effective.
 
Cause Im a goose I forgot how to quote, but that's ok.

You said how Shed and Chansey beat Dialga. Well, if you didn't see my set has Roar. Roar phazes out Shed into a mon that can get killed by Doom Desire.

+3 252+ SpA Dialga Doom Desire vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 357-420 (55.6 - 65.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO Chansey literally dies I don't know why you mentioned this at all especially with sub. They have to run Whirlwind which I'm not gonna say is uncommon cause that'd be a lie. It's on about a quarter of Chansey in the tier. So 3/4 times Dialga beats Chansey.

Garchomp isn't exactly the biggest threat in the meta, 6% usage means I'm on average going to see this mon on 3/50 teams on the ladder. Not to mention that 4% of these Garchomps are actually running Dual Chop, and assuming you are talking about the Adaptability set which has the power to break the sub, that's only seen 3% of the time. I don't think Garchomp is going to be a problem for Dialga in the current meta.

Magic Bounce/Unaware needs to be played very VERY carefully in order to beat Dialga, assuming you have both on one team. If you just have Unaware, Dialga Roars out and gets a kill, if you only have Magic Bounce, Dialga sits behind a sub and kills with a +3 Doom Desire. If you do have both, its a 50/50 chance that you play the Dialga correctly.

"it doesn't even hit particularly hard..." What? This mon is one of the hardest hitters in the metagame. +3 252+ SpA Dialga Doom Desire vs. 252 HP / 8+ SpD Assault Vest Registeel: 148-174 (40.6 - 47.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO Ass Vest Regi can only click U-Turn to go to something that may or may not be able to break the sub. A lot of the things I'd agree with you if it was only on paper, except in actual practice Dialga performs stellar.


Both Regi and Slaking struggle with Imposter, that's what team support is for. Regi needs an Aegi or a Shed with Recycle and Imposter isn't too much of a problem anymore. The -ate is actually a huge deal, especially when the opponent is relying on Ray being able to revenge kill, or Diancie for that matter. And be careful when you click Shift Gear so you don't need to sack something to Imposter.


You didn't acknowledge the Spider Web set which would be the main selling point of it being better than Metagross. It traps the -ates and can kill or stall them out. Patience is key when playing this set, and if anything its on the same level of Metagross.


And why should Kyurem-B drop exactly? It's main set is SD right now which is honestly an incredible set. SD / Espeed / Steel Killer / Filler. This set is crazy good at taking down so called counters. I don't use it personally but playing against it is difficult, despite having -ate counters. I don't see a reason for it to drop.
 

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