BH Balanced Hackmons Central Resources

E4 Flint

-inactive in BH due corrupt leader-
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Balanced Hackmons Central Resources
(banner pending)

What is Balanced Hackmons?
Conceptually, BH is defined as a sandbox tier where one can use Pokemon to their fullest potential with normal restrictions being removed.

What is the Balanced Hackmons Central?
The purpose of this thread is to discuss the resources herein. To participate in BH General Discussion, join us at the [Gen 7] Balanced Hackmons Ladder Thread

Other Links:
  • Balanced Hackmons Discord (Including RMT Channel!)
Balanced Hackmons Central Resources Staff:
E4 Flint

Want to become involved? Contact one of us through PM on Smogon/PS and we'll evaluate you for joining the team!
Want to give feedback on the layout/formatting of this thread? PM me!
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E4 Flint

-inactive in BH due corrupt leader-
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
Balanced Hackmons: a Primer
Overview on popular mechanics in the Balanced Hackmons scene!

  • Since BH allows the use of anything coded in the game, unreleased Pokemon, abilities, megastones, items and moves are usable
  • Because of the caveat of being possible in a link battle, these basic mechanics must be followed:
    • the use of only 4 moves per Pokermon
    • only one manual mega evolution per battle
    • Pokemon being limited to only 510 EV points [NEW!]Pokemon are able to have max EVs in every stat in Gen 7!
  • Pokemon may begin in any form they have in game without restrictions (subject to the banlist). This includes Mega evolutions without a manual Mega Evolution and their specific Megastone, and different forms without necessary moves and/or items (such as GiratinaO, Aegislash-Blade, Rotom forms, Meloetta-P, Darmanitan-Zen and so forth)
  • Arceus, regardless of ability, cannot lose its held plate. It cannot be given a plate as well
  • Any form of Arceus can be used; however it will remain Normal-type unless it keeps the required plate and Multitype
    • This is currently not true for the imposter i.e. if you are Arceus-Ice type, the Arceus will be Normal-Type while the Imposter will be Ice-Type This has since been modified, Chansey is the same type as Arceus always
    • Conversely, an Arceus holding a plate and having Multitype can take on any form of Arceus, but will retain its typing from the plate
    • Arceus cannot be forced to change its type; therefore it cannot use Protean. In addition, Soak will fail on it, but Forest's Curse and Trick-or-Treat will work normally
  • Hard-coded abilities designated for specific Pokemon will not work on any other. This includes Multitype, Stance Change, Forecast and Flower Gift
  • Some moves are hard-coded for a specific Pokemon (or their Imposters), such as Dark Void and Hyperspace Fury
  • You may set (nearly) any ability onto a base form of a Mega, but after a manual Mega evolution, they will retain their legal ability
  • Similarly, Pokemon with Primal Reversion, may make use of almost any ability on their base form once, before they revert and retain their legal ability. Some examples of base form abilities are Intimidate, Magic Guard, and Download
  • Items meant for specific Pokemon may work on their forms and retain their properties.
    • Mega Pokemon holding their Megastone cannot lose them via Knock Off or Trick
    • Mega Pokemon cannot Mega into themselves. This does not exclude Charizard-Mega or Mewtwo-Mega Mega Evolving to their alternate Mega form with the right stone
    • Both forms of Giratina may hold Griseous Orb. It applies its effects and cannot be removed from either one. Giratina-A will not transform into Giratina-O while holding it
    • Latios and Latias may make use of Soul Dew in both base and Mega forms
  • Furthermore, Pokemon with Imposter while holding special items retain their item's properties. This includes
    • The capability of Mega-Evolution and retain the corresponding Mega's ability, while having the opponent's moves
    • Stat buffs from items such as Eviolite, Soul Dew, Light Ball, Thick Club, DeepSea items and more. This excludes Ditto's special items which are coded not to work when Ditto is in a transformed state.
    • Special effects from items such Lucky Punch or Stick
to be reformatted...
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E4 Flint

-inactive in BH due corrupt leader-
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
Viability Rankings
Pokemon are sorted by name within their rank, and their sets are sorted in decreasing viability (determined by the BHC staff AND also factoring in usage stats at 1500 and 1760) - however if they have an entry in the Setpedia, they are marked with a (`) sign.

Imposter is an ability that shapes the entire meta and is one of the best examples of low-risk, high-reward. With such benefits as being able to scout opponents for moves and ability, countersweeping one's team against one's own offensive Pokemon, or constantly switching in to "infinitely" PP stall defensive mons that would otherwise be unbreakable in other tiers, its importance can't be overstated. It can virtually be run on any Pokemon and almost always be reliable, such as:
Chansey`: immense HP and ability to receive boosts from Eviolite make it the premier Imposter user in Balanced Hackmons. It can also surprise opponents looking to imposter-proof their team, with alternate items such as Lucky Punch or Spooky Plate.
Blissey: can useToxic Orb or other easily apparent items. Chansey with a plate is a better choice to lure an opponent into a false sense of security
Pikachu with Light Ball (can break past would-be imposter checks), or any of the aforementioned Pokemon with other items such as Choice Scarf or even Quick Claw.

Even Pokemon that can Mega-Evolve can run Imposter and then Mega-Evolve, while in the transformed state, and gain the opponent's moves but the Mega's stats and ability.
Great offenses, decent defenses, good speed and a fantastic STAB - what's not to love. MewtwoMegaX can threaten the entire tier with just its STABs and its stats allow it to be quite versatile. It is able to run a more defensive PH hazard/status spreader, a strong -ate abuser complemented by its Fighting STAB, and a whole variety of other physical or mixed sets in between. With the wane of MewtwoMegaY after various suspects, its cousin has taken its place in the S-rank


Groudon <Red Orb>`


Kangaskhan <Kangaskhanite>`
Necrozma Dusk-Mane`



Charizard-Mega-Y (Poison Heal, Aerilate, Triage)
Metagross-Mega (Magic Bounce, Regenerator, Tough Claws)
Palkia (Drizzle, Tinted Lens, Swift Swim)
Steelix-Mega (Flash Fire, Prankster, Regenerator)
Tapu Fini (Fur Coat)
Xurkitree (Galvanize)

Aggron-Mega (Regenerator, Prankster)
Ampharos-Mega (Prankster, Galvanize)
Darmanitan-Zen (Regenerator)
Gardevoir-Mega (Tinted Lens, Pixilate)
Giratina-Origin (Magic Bounce, Prankster, Mold Breaker)
Groudon (Fur Coat, Soundproof)
Heracross-Mega (Triage, Tinted Lens)
Lucario-Mega (Steelworker)
Marowak-Alola (Tinted Lens, Tough Claws)
Nihilego (Sand Stream, Levitate)
Regirock (Sand Stream)
Scizor-Mega (Flash Fire)
Stakataka (Steelworker, Sand Stream, Levitate)
Venusaur-Mega (Flash Fire)

Previously Ranked
Direct Changes Due to Suspects:
Buzzwole (Flash Fire) [Post Groudon-Primal Ban]
Gengar<Gengarite> (Illusion) [Post Gengarite/Magnet Pull Ban]
Groudon-Primal [Post Primal Groudon Ban]
(Water Bubble)
[Post Water Bubble Ban]
[Post Illusion Ban]
Rayquaza-Mega [Post Mega Rayquaza Ban]
Empolean (Magic Bounce)
Marshadow (Normalize)
Lati@s-Mega (Contrary, Tinted Lens)
Pidgeot-Mega (Triage)
Blacephalon (Sheer Force, Tinted Lens)
Lugia (Prankster, Magic Bounce)
Muk-Alola (Unaware, Regenerator)
Reshiram (Contrary, Tinted Lens)
Lunala (Simple, Unburden)
Cosmoem {pretty terrible, use Cresselia, Lugia or an actual wall that is non-Psychic}
Promoted: Magnet Pull, Stakeout Sets
S -> A+
S -> A+
B -> A+
Added: Stakeout
Demoted: Magnet Pull
Demoted: Fur Coat, Magic Bounce
Demoted: A- -> B-
Promoted: B -> A
Promoted: B -> A-
Promoted: B -> A-
Added: B+ (Sturdy, Magic Guard)
Added: B (galvanize)
Updated: Ability reordering
Added: C (Sand Stream, Levitate)
Demoted: B- -> C
Added: C (Prankster, Regenerator)
Added: C (Fur Coat)
Added: D (Regen, Unaware, Flash Fire, Prank)
Demoted: C -> D
Demoted: C -> D
Demoted: C -> D
Updated: Flash Fire added
Added: B-
Promoted: B-
Ferrothorn: B- -> B
Kangaskhan: B -> B+
Mega Steelix: D -> C
Pheromosa: D -> C


Kyurem-B: A- -> B
Mega Slowbro: B- -> C
Mega Heracross: C -> D


Mega Swampert: UR -> B-


Buzzwole: D -> UR
Gengar<Gengarite>: A -> UR (Banned)
Marshadow: D -> UR
Palkia (Stakeout) C -> UR (Banned)

  • Descriptions for Kyogre and \\THEGOD\\ Removed (S only)
  • Mentions of Stakeout and Magnet Pull in Strikeout to signify ban
Initial Rank Changes:
Initial Rank Changes:
(Post-Feedback in Thread)
  • Aegislash: B+ -> B
  • Yveltal: A- -> B+
  • Chansey: B
  • Chansey (meta rank) changed to Imposter (meta rank)
  • VR has been updated to reflect only at most the top 3 most viable sets that are run on a certain Pokemon to justify its ranking
Initial Rank Changes:
(Post-Feedback in Thread)
  • Groudon: Primary ability is now Illusion
  • Mega Mewtwo X: Overview for S-rank added
Initial Rank Changes:
Initial Rank Changes:
Initial Rank Changes:
  • Imposter (meta rank) changed to Imposter at S rank
  • VR has been updated to be more selective of which mons are on the VR based on usage
  • Removal of "top 3 sets" in favor of direct linking with setpedia
Initial Rank Changes:
(Post-Feedback in Thread)
  • A+ -> A, canceled
  • C -> UR
  • UR -> C
Link (Changes post comm feedback now embedded into post)
* Changed Header. Added note about Setpedia entry and NEW addition to decreasing by 1500's viability where we can't think of sets.
* Removed links to old Setpedia Links - accessed by external members. Changed it to an indicator to show a mon is present in the Setpedia

* For Imposter, the ability has been listed first with the 3 most viable users instead due to its unique place in the tier​
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E4 Flint

-inactive in BH due corrupt leader-
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
This post is ranking speed for outspeeding; it is sorted in descending order. IV's are assumed to be 31. Choice Scarf is usually not included as there is a +1 entry instead. The format is:
<speed number> [Pokemon Images]
POKEMON1 (Level) (w/ ITEM) / BaseStat / IVS:EVs:(+) / (Buffs) // (MISC INFORMATION)​
(Highest *Visible* Speed)
Deoxys-Speed (Choice Scarf): 180 / 31:252+ / +6 // Swift Swim in Rain (no Tailwind)​

Rayquaza-Mega: 115 / 31:252+ / +2 // Quick Feet + Status​
Rayquaza-Mega: 115 / 31:252+ / +4​

Pheromosa: 151 / 31:252+ / +2​

Lunala: 97 / 31:252 / +4​

Deoxys-A: 150 / 31:252+ / +2​

Sceptile-Mega: 145 / 31:252+ / +2​

Mewtwo-Mega-Y: 140 / 31:252+ / +2​

Ash-Greninja: 132 / 31:252+ / +2​

Gengar-Mega/Mewtwo-Mega-X: 130 / 31:252+ / +2​

Ultra-Necrozma: 129/ 31:252+ / +2​

Gyarados-Mega: 81 / 31:252 / +4​

Marshadow: 125 / 31:252+ / +2​

Arceus-*: 120 / 31:252+ / +2​

Tyranitar-Mega: 71 / 31:252 / 31 / +4​

Rayquaza-Mega: 115 / 31:252+ / +2​

Ultra-Necrozma: 129 / 31:252 / +2​

Diancie-Mega: 115 / 31:252+ / +2​

Pidgeot-Mega: 121 / 31:252+ / +2​

Pheromosa / 31:252+ / 31 / +1​

Rayquaza-Mega / 31:252 / 31 / +2​

Palkia/Regigigas/Slaking: 100 / 31: 252+ / +2​

Xerneas/Yveltal: 99 / 31:252+ / 31 / +2​

Lunala: 97 / 31:252+ / +2​

Kyurem: 95 / 31:252+ / +2​

Kartana: 109 / 31:252 / +2​

Garchomp-Mega: 92 / 31:252+ / +2​

Groudon/Kyogre/Reshiram/Zekrom: 90 / 31:252+ / +2​

Ash-Greninja / 31:252 / +1​

Kangaskhan-Mega/Palkia/Regigigas/Slaking: 100 / EVs: 252 / 31 / +2​

Xerneas/Yveltal: 99 / 31:252 / +2​

Necrozma-Ultra: 129 / 31:252+ / +1​

Lunala: 97 / EVs: 252 / 31 / +1​

Kyurem / EVs: 252 / 31 / +2​

Garchomp-Mega: 92 / 31:252 / +2​

Groudon/Kyogre/Reshiram/Zekrom: 90 / 31:252 / +2​

Rayquaza-Mega: 115 / 31:252+ / +1​

Gengar-Mega/Mewtwo-Mega-X: 130 / 31:252+ / +1​

Zygarde-Complete: 85 / 31:252 / +2​

Ultra-Necrozma: 129 / 31:252 / 31/ +1​

Gyarados-Mega: 81 / 31:252 / 31 / +2​

Hoopa-Unbound: 80 / EVs: 252 / 31 / +2​

Arceus: 120 / 31:252 / 31 / +1​

Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 77 / 31:252 / +2​

Deoxys-Speed: 180 / 31:252+ / +0​

Tyranitar-Mega: 71 / 31: 252+ / +2​

Rayquaza-Mega: 115 / 31:252 / +1​

Diancie-Mega: 110 / 31:252 / +1​

Groudon/Kyogre/Reshiram/Zekrom: 90 / 31:252+ / +1​

Magearna: 65 / 31:252 / +2​

Xerneas/Yveltal: 99 / 31:252 / +1​

Pheromosa: 151 / 31:252+ / +0​

Aerodactyl-Mega/Deoxys-Attack: 150 / 31:252+ / 31 / +0​

Sceptile-Mega: 145 / 31:252+ / +0​

Hoopa-Unbound: 80 / 31:252+ / +1​

Mewtwo-Mega-Y: 140 / 31:252+ / +0​

Ash-Greninja: 132 / 31:252+ / +0​

Gengar-Mega/Mewtwo-Mega-X: 130 / 31:252+ / +0​

Ultra-Necrozma: 129 / 31:252 / 31/ +0​

Marshadow: 125 / 31:252+ / +0​

Arceus: 120 / 31:252+ / +0​

Rayquaza-Mega: 115 / 31:252+ / +0​

Gengar-Mega/Mewtwo-Mega-X: 130 / 31:252 / +0​

Necrozma-Ultra: 129 / 31:252 / +0​

Diancie-Mega: 110 / 31:252+ / +0​

Pidgeot-Mega: 121 / 31:252 / +0​

Arceus-*: 120 / 31:252 / +0​

Rayquaza-Mega: 115 / 31:252 / +0​

Kangaskhan-Mega/Palkia/Regigigas/Slaking: 100 / EVs: 252+ / 31 / +0​

Chansey: 50 / 31:252+ / +1​

Xerneas/Yveltal: 99 / 31:252+ / +0​

Lunala /Solgaleo: 97 / 31:252+ / +0​

Diancie-Mega: 110 / 31:252 / +0​

Rayquaza-Mega: 109 / 31:252 / +0​

Kyurem: 95 / 31:252+ / +0​

Garchomp-Mega: 92 / 31:252+ / +0​

Kyogre/Groudon/Reshiram/Zekrom: 90 / 31:252+ / +0​

Kangaskhan-Mega/Palkia/Regigigas/Slaking: 100 / 31:252 / +0​

Xerneas/Yveltal: 99 / 31:252 / +0​

Lunala/Solgaleo: 97 / 31:252 / +0​

Kyurem: 95 / 31:252 / +0​

Garchomp-Mega: 92 / 31:252 / +0​

Dialga/Kyogre/Groudon/Reshiram/Zekrom: 90 / 31:252 / +0​

Zygarde-Complete: 85 / 31:252 / +0​

Gyarados-Mega: 81 / 31:252 / +0​

Hoopa-Unbound/Venusaur-Mega: 80 / 31:252 / +0​

Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 77 / 31:252 / +0​

Scizor-Mega/Tyranitar-Mega: 71 / 31:252 / +0​

Chansey: 50 / 31:252+ / +0​
Think we missed any? Suggest what ought to be added!
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E4 Flint

-inactive in BH due corrupt leader-
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
This post ranks speed for underspeeding; it is sorted in descending order. The format is:
<speed number> [Pokemon Images]
POKEMON1 (Level) (w/ ITEM) / BaseStat / IVS:EVs:(-) / (DeBuffs) // (MISC INFORMATION)

Lugia/Metagross-Mega: 110 / 0:0-​

Shedinja / EVs: 40 / 31:252+ / +0​

Solgaleo: 97 / 0:0- / +0​

Dialga/Giratina/Kyogre: 90 / 0:0- / +0​

Dialga/Giratina (Lv99): 90 / 0:0- / +0​

Cresselia/Zygarde-Complete: 85 / 0:0- / +0​

Gyarados-Mega: 81 / 0:0- / +0​

Venusaur-Mega: 80 / 0:0- / +0​

Buzzwole: 79 / 0:0- / +0​

Necrozma Dusk-Mane: 77 / 0:0- / +0​

Scizor-Mega: 75 / 0:0- / +0​

Swampert-Mega: 70 / 0:0- / 0+​

Magearna: 65 / 0:0- / +0​

Celesteela: 61 / 0:0- / +0​

Aegislash-*/Empoleon: 60 / 0:0- / +0​

Aggron-Mega/Audino-Mega/Chansey/Diancie/Muk-Alola/Registeel: 50 / 0:0- / +0​

Audino-Mega/Registeel (Lv99): 50 / 0:0- / +0​

Shedinja: 40 / 0:0- / +0​

Slowbro-Mega/Steelix-Mega: 30 / 0:0- / +0​

Ferrothorn/Sableye-Mega: 20 / 0:0- / +0​

Stakataka: 13 / 0:0- / +0​

Shuckle: 5 / 0:0- / +0​
(Lowest Speed /no item)

Shedinja (Lv1): 40 / 0:0- / +0​
Think we missed any? Suggest what ought to be added!
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E4 Flint

-inactive in BH due corrupt leader-
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
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E4 Flint

-inactive in BH due corrupt leader-
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
Chloe. - virtually providing the template for these type of threads with her resource threads
Funbot28 and motherlove - doing the main processing of most of the resources
VoltDarkrai - helping in collecting sprites

The BH Community - your patience
Once again, sorry for the delay everyone. It took a long time in formatting, alphabetizing, editing and laying out the resources in a way I saw was ideal. I had a busy semester and right now I don't have internet so I am using up my hotspot data to try and get this done. Hopefully we can build on from here!
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E4 Flint

-inactive in BH due corrupt leader-
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
Remember guys, the purpose of this thread is to discuss any/all of the above and thus what I have posted is in no way conclusive, final or immutable. Just make sure to backup your suggestions with concise and rational backing. I would rather not have "Shedinja to S+ rank pls xD!" one-liners in here if possible. Make use of replays, logs, reasoning or anything else to backup your idea but don't write novels.


Take care of yourself.
is a Tiering Contributoris a Community Contributor Alumnus
thanks for setting up the vr! i got a few suggestions to make but it looks pretty solid apart from that.

ok for starters, there's a few relics from the wb era left: wb m-gyara, water absorb ttar, water absorb audino, water absorb xern, wb trash greninja, water absorb steela, wb palkia, water absorb magearna, water absorb diancie, and (presumably) desolate land ho-oh.

never seen soundproof dialga but it actually sounds really cool

why is kanga above gengar? both lose to offense but gengar is so good vs fat teams it's dumb. kanga can pressure them too ofc but at least you can sort of play around it with stuff like ph and shed. can't do that with gengar. for this reason i believe they should switch places

there are a few viable mons that aren't ranked, such as unburden pdon/solgaleo, nihilego, and *COUGH COUGH* some others

there's a couple weird sets that i think need some explanation: regen mega metagross, dry skin magearna, snow warning kyuw, hustle hoopa, mega sceptile in general (besides contrary), speed boost kyub, levitate steels, harvest regi. not calling these bad i just don't get what makes them viable.

again thank you for posting the vr! very nice to have bh feel complete again


Banned deucer.
First of all, thank you for making this giant thread for all of us to finally fulfill our desire to talk about viabilities of 'mons.

To get this kicked off, I would like to express my opinions on the existing 'mons that I do not agree with:

Major thoughts:

Exile this frog to Unranked / Blacklist

I can't believe this frog is even on this list. Water Bubble has been banned, and this 'mon lost significant amount of its viability ever since, and its base stats are too awful to feature OHKO on Mega Rayquaza using Ice Beam or OHKO Zygarde-C using Sheer Force + Life Orb Ice Beam. I think the viability of Greninja-Ash has been demonstrated to most BH players during previous CLC challenge (as our leader has admitted that it was pain and near impossibility), so I am not going to mention anything further and suggest the deletion of this 'mon from the list.

Nominating to move Gengar (Gengarite) from B to an A

Gengarite is the most seriously-taken ability in BH Suspect thread at this point, and the combination of Encore + Perish Song + Shadow Tag is capable of trapping many important walls in the metagame, including but not limited to Zygarde-C, Mega Audino, Registeel (lacking Prankster Parting Shot / Baton Pass), and others. In the perspective of the player who is against Gengar with Gengarite, they always have to think twice before pressing Shore Up with Fur Coat Zygarde, Rapid Spin with their RegenVest Solgaleo, Stealth Rock with their Unaware Audino, or Switcheroo with their Choice Band Primal Groudon (although Gengar switching into this is not realistic but whatever).
This is a replay of me vs Funbot28. I believe couple people have seen this, but this shows how a single mistake in front of Gengarite can bring tragic consequences every time.
This is a replay of jasprose vs Transcendent God Champion in semi-semi-finals in BH Open tour. Every time Lance (who I refer as TGC) presses status / recovery / hazard control moves, he always risked losing the 'mon, and he unfortunately didn't get predictions right all the time, and he lost majority of his teams against it.

I can see A rank is defined as "really good", and Flint has also admitted the increasing interest of Gengarite among members (although not enough interest to move further to polls at this point). This 'mon leaves an opponent under heavy pressure from the team preview, and strictly inhibits everything they do in the whole game. At some extent, I believe this is more than just "must prepare for", it is something "deadly that you must prepare for". I believe B rank is too low for this thing.

Suggesting to move Zygarde-C from S to A+

The first thought I had when I saw this thing being released was 'so fat'. Yes, it does have titanic HP and colossal natural bulk which makes OHKO very hard for anything without Ice-type moves. But the popularity of Zygarde-C has caused nearly every special attackers to carry Ice and Fairy-type moves which can all comfortably 2HKO or OHKO Zygarde-C, and this metagame allows anyone to access to Ice Beam / Light of Ruin and stuff.
But I know that just because Zygarde-C is a prime victim of being OHKOed by Ice-type moves does not mean the viability is hindered from it; Fur Coat set can prevail against Primal Groudon even with the ones equipped with Choice Band Ice Hammer, and with Z-Crystal, it can check next to every single physical attackers in the metagame without being crippled from Switcheroo or Trick. It is still a meta-defining wall, so I think it has to be at somewhere very high rank but as most players are used to Gen 7 at this point, the walling-capability of this 'mon has decreased a little due to its unfortunate x4 Ice-type weakness.
I understand this 'mon has many other strength that outshines its weakness from its typing and I won't have any complaints about this suggestion being rejected. Even if the suggestion is implemented, I believe some day other people will suggest to bring this back to S rank.

Minor thoughts:

I do not understand why do I not see a Magnet Pull set. Primal Groudon's both STABs potentially hit Steel-types supereffectively, and STAB V-Create OHKOes most Steel-types that does not have Flash Fire.

Although Psychic Surge outclasses most of other abilities, I think Dazzling / Queenly Majesty at least deserves a mention due to the lack of announcement of the ability and the fact that it does not restrict its team from using priority moves.

Remove all mentions about Water Bubble, since it was banned. Water Absorb, I think, has to be removed as well, due to the fact that its only viable usage was to stop Water Bubble attackers.

Thanks for reading. This is not a novel, but took a wrong time to write.
Mega Pokemon cannot Mega into themselves. This does not exclude Charizard-Mega or Mewtwo-Mega Mega Evolving to their alternate Mega form with the right stone
That's actually wrong, it is possbible to Mega Evolve a Mewtwo-Mega x holding a Mewtwonite Y into a Mega-Mewtwo Y and vice versa, same with Charizard.

Also, Magnet Pull should be added for Groudon-Primal.

And Levitate on Registeel is just a waste of an ability slot, as thousand arrows bypass it.
That's actually wrong, it is possbible to Mega Evolve a Mewtwo-Mega x holding a Mewtwonite Y into a Mega-Mewtwo Y and vice versa, same with Charizard.

Also, Magnet Pull should be added for Groudon-Primal.

And Levitate on Registeel is just a waste of an ability slot, as thousand arrows bypass it.
Thats what he said; it does not exclude you from mega evolving into the opposite form. Does not exclude is a double negation.
Yah but he said "cannot". Double negation essentially means "pokemon can't mega evo into themself, this includes mmx n shit"
The cannot is in the other sentence, and thus no longer modifies it. The sentence says "these pokemon cannot do <thing>. This rule does not exclude these pokemon from doing this <other thing>"


is a Past SCL Champion
PUPL Champion
forgot to remove water bubble for Mega-Gyarados and possibly other Pokemon, I'll delete when this is fixed

Semako Levitate isn't a waste of an ability on Registeel. I've used it for Improof purposes like improofing things such as LO Sheer Force MMY with Earth Power / Ice Beam / Moonblast or Tbolt / Sludge Wave. That set is extremely hard to wall besides Chansey, and Levitate is useful for those purposes. Now that is a very specific example, but it isn't useless.

Flint edit: merged
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Suggesting to move Ho-Oh from D to C

Ho-Oh might be outclassed offensively by Groudon-P and Rayquaza-M, but its definitely muuuuch better and more flexible than most of the crap in D-rank such as Alolan-Muk. (What does Muk even do outside of having unique typing?) It can run an Aerilate set and, unlike Mega-Ray, can run a STAB V-Create, Sacred Fire, or Blue Flare to muscle past Steel-types that'd wall it otherwise. It also lacks the vulnerability to Ice Ray has, meaning it's not forced out by opposing Fridge Kyurem-B. In fact, played well and running Sacred Fire, it can beat Kyu-B in a straight out slugfest. Ho-Oh also has underappreciated 103/154 special bulk, allowing it run AV Regen quite well. It can also use that bulk to run Coil sets, ideally with Unaware, to become a threatening and difficult to take down attacker.

However, alot of the top tier threats can, well, threaten in, such as Primaldon, and it won't fit on every team, so I don't think it qualifies for B- rank presently

Suggesting to move Mega Manectric from Unranked to C

Galvanize gave this thing a new life and it still has one of the best speed tiers, only notably outsped by Mewtwo-Y, Deo-S, and Aerodactyl-M without boosts. There aren't a lot of safe switches into its Boomburst that are not resistant or immune and it can run coverage moves to reliably deal with Groudon and Zygarde, who you'd think would counter, but only check at best. It's also quick enough to disable walls and offensive threats alike, though it can run set-up as well too if it gets a turn to get going. It also performs amazingly on Electric Terrain teams as an abuser. It can also run a Sheer Force set, which is less powerful overall but gives it much stronger coverage, or act as a lure with Refrigerate to take out stuff like Zygarde for another teammate.

I don't think its presence is near common enough to warrant higher than C currently, though I think it could score higher. I mean, Greninjass is in the B tier, after all. And it should be at least in par with Ampharos trading a bit of power and some bulk for speed and not needing a whole lot of support outside of a slow pivot user. However, at the very, very least put it in D if you don't feel its C-worthy.

Suggesting to move Xurkitree from Unranked to somewhere

I don't use it, so can't comment much on it. But you have it listed as a wall breaker, so it feels odd that its unranked. Is something not worthy of ranking worth listing as a viable choice for a wallbreaker? Either rank it or remove it from wall breakers.

Suggesting to move Arcanine from Unranked to S+++

Don't care about stats, its simply the best Pokemon in existence. If you disagree, you're wrong, plain and simple.

I'll look more over everything when I have more time. Too longer to type that up than I expected.
Mega Pokemon cannot Mega into themselves. This does not exclude Charizard-Mega or Mewtwo-Mega Mega Evolving to their alternate Mega form with the right stone
After literally hours of arguing and searching (like legit two+ hours) and asking multiple people about it (some didn't answer) I have finally come to a conclusion.




The conclusion is that I was wrong, Semako was wrong, Quantum Tesseract was wrong and everyone else was wrong except esteemed tier leader E4 Flint, the sentence is correct (depending on wether or not you consider zardX and zardY as the same mon) it's just super confusing and I think it would be a good idea to word it differently.

I would go with "Mega-Pokemon cannot mega evolve into the same mega form".

E4 Flint

-inactive in BH due corrupt leader-
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
I shall settle the Great Summer E4 Flint Grammar Debate/Debacle of 2017 and will make a timeline post for significant Bh events such as suspects and this soon.

Here is the planned fix

"Mega Pokémon cannot evolve into themselves. However, if they have an alternate mega form (like charizard or mewtwo) they may mega evolve from one form to another."

E: also it is not "awfully worded" it's just worded in a concise and emphatic way >_>

E2: we can invite some GP members if needed

E3: to see the difference, look at the way I phrased imposter held items for ditto later on

I will leave it up for a while for further analysis just in case (also cause I'm on mobile for a few days).

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The Xatu Warrior
im torn on xurk tbh, its speed tier is god awful in this tier, same with its bulk, but its perhaps one of the scariest wallbreakers in the tier. electric boomburst with specs is near unwallable in the tier, and zygarde, giratina, and groudon cant hope to tank specs earth power or ice beam. i mean the fucker effortlessly 2hkos AVregen registeel with boomburst. one of the tankiest regenvesters out there. it might not be GREAT but i do agree it deserves at LEAST the lowest rank. i also support magnet pull on groudon. i dont know if i agree with moving zyggy down, as even with ice/fairy coverage, zygarde still manages to be one of the best tanks in the metagame.

E4 Flint

-inactive in BH due corrupt leader-
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
I realized in post that I had formatted an older version of the VR which is why there were some inaccuracies. I also factored some of the feedback I've seen about the "hide" tags. My intent was to make it easy to scroll past all the OPs of this thread should someone want to, but I removed the interior tags to make it easier to view the mons. Please check out the revised VR as put forward by Funbot28 motherlove and myself. Thanks!


Banned deucer.
Ok so with the Viability Rankings being updated, here are some initial nominations that the council would like you guys to discuss!

Mega Diancie: A -> A+
  • Becoming more common on ladder and tour games, Scarf/FakeSpeed Pixilate Mega Diancie is still really good in the current meta since most teams carry Pokemon that are weak to it/give it free switchins such as Zygarde-C, Giratina, and other passive threats. Solgaleo is a nuisance, but pairing it with Scarf Magnet Pull Primal Groudon usually alleviates this issue. From there Mega Diancie can wreck since it lacks many solid switchins besides Steels. Other useful sets such as Contrary and Magic Guard also provide Mega Diancie a surprise factor that can be extremely advantageous if used properly. Its weakness to common offensive types in Ground, Steel, and Water alongside its poor defensive bulk disallow it from switching in against the majority of top tier threats however.
Gengar: B+ -> A-
  • Skyrocketed in popularity and viability after the Ev Limit change, Shadow Tag Mega Gengar has cemented itself as a staple on many BH teams, acting as a great means to get rid of common defensive pivots such as Mega Audino, Registeel, Zygarde-C, and Imposter Chansey if they lack Magic Bounce / Soundproof, providing unparalleled support to offensive teammates. Its offensive sets are also quite useful as well, since its coverage moves can help deal with offensive threats such as Mega Rayquaza, Zygarde-C, Primal Groudon, and Mega Tyranitar.
Deoxys-A: A- -> B+
  • Opposed to Gengar, Deoxys-A did not appreciate the resurgence of mixed defensive walls that prevent it from obtaining the 2HKOes / OHKOes it was used to in the previous meta. Although Psychic Surge sets are still quite potent alongside Shell Smash, more teams are opting to run its counterpart in Mega Mewtwo Y due to its better specially offensive wallbreaking prowess, its more reliable natural bulk, and the general flexibility it can use between its sets.
Xerneas: B+ -> A-
  • Xerneas has also been given a fresh breath of air with the No EV limit change, allowing it to better check numerous offensive threats such as Primal Kyogre, Mega Gyarados, and Mega Rayquaza much better. Its Offensive Quiver Dance Poison Heal sets are also quite potent in the current metagame due to the prevalence of Core Enforcer as a means to check other Poison Heal sweepers. Defensive Poison Heal and Unaware sets also provide a useful blanket check to many special attacking threats due to its Fairy typing providing amazing Defensive and Offensive coverage.
Lugia: C -> D
  • Apart from Baton Pass teams, Lugia rarely sees much use in the current metagame. Although the change to EVs made it even more sturdier as a defensive wall, the numerous weaknesses to common offensive types such as Ghost, Dark, Ice, and Rock prevent it from checking the threats it needs to. It also gets outclassed as a Psychic check by defensive threats such as Solgaleo and Mega Gyarados in many cases as well, even furthering diminishing its utility as a defensive wall.
Discuss the rankings of these certain Pokemon, and changes will be made if enough support is provided within this thread. Of course discussion on other nominations is not disallowed, but we encourage the focus to be on the aforementioned points for now.

Happy Posting!
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Add Contrary to the list of sets for PDon. Band Contrary is actually pretty sweet, as it allows you to use the wall breaking power of band early game, and the cleaning power of contrary late game.

Also, under stall breakers in the role compendium, BO Poison Heal mons can be very potent at breaking stall, as shown with Mega Tyranitar, Xerneas, and obviously Regigigas. I believe that these sets should definitely be put under stallbreakers, as the combination of hard hitting attacks, phasing, and spore can do massive damage to stall teams.
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