BH Balanced Hackmons Central Resources

[Scarf]

Alright, so apparently I've yet to post in this thread so here I am. Concerning nominations of more uncommon mons, it'd be nice if users can really polish up their nominations and / or provide solid evidence to back up their points. For instance, take superskarmory's Ho-Oh nomination:

Nominating Ho-oH to move up to c. Really solid bulk, especially on the special side, and the loss of Primal groudon, make it worth a lot more than D rank.

It's true that Ho-Oh does have nice bulk, but the following comment is kind of odd. What mon doesn't benefit when a mon capable of OHKOing the entire metagame gets banned? Why does Ho-Oh specifically benefit from this, enough so to warrant a jump up in ranking, especially considering it made for a not-so-awful Groudon check, being able to check a few of its sets well? I feel like the "PDon is banned therefore x mon is better by default" argument to justify nominations is nothing but an overused buzzphrase intended to make the nominated Pokemon appear better than it really is. In this specific instance, Ho-Oh's usage has almost doubled (before, after), but the original poster has done nothing to explain this minor surge in popularity, and even after a little bit of theory (some Primal Groudon sets smashed Ho-Oh [Tinted Lens, DesoLand Band, Galvanize, etc.] explaining why PDon's popularity supressed Ho-Oh's usage, but others were checked by it [Pixilate, defensive sets, most Contrary, most special sets] which made Ho-Oh a nice improof mon for these sets or just a regular Pokemon to take these sets on) it's hard to pinpoint the true reason behind the correlation between Ho-Oh's popularity and PDon's absence. The point I'm trying to make here is that it's not enough to simply say "PDon is banned, that makes Ho-Oh better", you need to explain why. With the absence of Groudon the metagame has shifted more towards favoring bulky, stall-like teams. Since Groudon is the catalyst for this, according to you Ho-Oh should benefit a fair bit from this. Why?

Ho-oh's typing allows it to hard wall Mega Diancie sets that don't run Rock coverage, which is most of them, and that automatically makes it deserve attention. That lets you use a partner like Dialga to take other -ate attacks.

Yeah, Ho-Oh is a pretty good Mega Diancie check, only fearing the uncommon Head Smash, but as for Dialga making a good partner to take on other -ate users...

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252 Atk Life Orb Kyurem-Black Bolt Strike vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Ho-Oh: 382-450 (91.8 - 108.1%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Refrigerate Kyurem-Black Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Ho-Oh: 211-250 (50.7 - 60%) -- 84.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Refrigerate Kyurem-Black Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Dialga: 175-207 (43.3 - 51.2%) -- 3.1% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Kyurem-Black Precipice Blades vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Dialga: 291-343 (72 - 84.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

-=

=-​

252 SpA Choice Specs Refrigerate Kyurem-White Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Dialga: 241-285 (59.6 - 70.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Refrigerate Kyurem-White Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ho-Oh: 265-313 (63.7 - 75.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Ho-Oh can run a really nice contrary set with stab on both Dragon Ascent and V-create backed up by 130 Atk and 154 SpD, add to that it's unphased by burns and only weak to Rock and Electric moves, both of which can be walled by a Ground Type.

Its Contrary set may be fine and all (but seriously, some replays vs. good players wouldn't go amiss here. I doubt many people have ACTUALLY seen Contrary Ho-Oh consistently put in work so at the moment we're just taking your word for it) but I regret to inform you that Ho-Oh is also weak to Water, a type that's not walled by Ground, though I struggle to understand how this is at all relevant to Ho-Oh's viability...

Magic Guard allows it to spam boosting moves alongside STAB Flare Blitz and Brave Bird and equipping a life orb to hit the tier hard with the exception of Fur Coat users, imposterproofed easily by a Flash Fire steel.

Listing what it can do doesn't really convince people that it's better than what it used to be. I assume you're comparing this Ho-Oh to the Ho-Oh in the PDon meta, where according to you, it's worse. So, as opposed to listing the upsides of its viable sets, you need to explain what it is about the current metagame and what changed that enables Ho-Oh to flourish. At the moment this is just meaningless fluff. Also having to restrict both your ability and typing on your improofer is quite limiting and definitely not what I would describe as "easy".

I also really like using Volt Absorb ho-Oh to suck up momentum from Volt Switch spammers like specs MMY (though it is still OHKOed by a Psycho Boost from full health).

Not really too relevant of a point then is it, when by far the most common Volt Switch user can just OHKO you. :/

The point of this post is to highlight where nomination posts tend to go wrong by using an example, which hopefully may teach a few of us what we can do to strengthen one's arguments when making any future nominations. Perhaps give this a look over if you wish to discuss a mon previously nominated or nominate any new mons in the future.

 

[cityscapes]

re: ho-oh

i did some testing with the contrary set last night and i think that this set is the one you want to use:

Ho-Oh @ Stone Plate
Ability: Contrary
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Rash Nature
- V-create
- Fleur Cannon
- Judgment
- Leaf Storm / filler

now let's compare this to contrary mega ray, which runs draco plate judgment/v create/leaf storm/filler (usually shore up):

- ho oh is much weaker than mega ray (base 110 vs 180 spa)
- 4x rocks weakness is really really bad and it requires removal to sweep
- stone plate judgment is pretty bad coverage, it only really hits imposter and opposing ho oh
+ great spdef + typing means that it can set up much more easily if there are no rocks, and if you carry recovery over leaf storm you can actually counter pixilate mega diancie over the course of the game as long as you can prevent sr. this is good because pixilate diancie is literally everywhere on ladder rn
+ stab v create is stronger than ray's, allowing it to force out guys like solgaleo. that's how sweeps get started
+ better coverage (fleur>draco judgment for mmx and stuff, also it can boost with fleur)

overall i wouldn't say that it's as good as contrary ray but hey that's why they're on opposite sides of the vr. personally i support a rise to c because although it's not the best in terms of raw viability its niche is very valuable; fairy resists are really good and ho oh is the best one because it's resistant to all the dumb coverage moves. thanks for reading

 

[RNGIsFatal]

I played AG for a while to see what Ho-oh can do with its typing.

Life Orb set in AG is p dope, so I decided to try and see if it is still op in BH where everything has full EV.

252+ Atk Life Orb Ho-Oh Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Audino-Mega: 188-224 (45.8 - 54.6%) -- 57.8% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Ho-Oh Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Solgaleo: 421-499 (88 - 104.3%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

When I thought it has some offensive presence, some stuff turned out to be disappointing.

252+ Atk Life Orb Ho-Oh Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Mewtwo-Mega-Y: 277-328 (66.5 - 78.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

This means Ho-oh will suck ass against offense. If you carry stuff like Brave Bird or Volt Tackle Imposter will switch in and 2HKO / 3HKO you. So that p much proves Ho-oh is better if it is defensively oriented.

When it comes to defensive uses, I think it has a niche in reliably walling Pixilate Diancie...

252+ SpA Life Orb Pixilate Diancie-Mega Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Ho-Oh: 133-156 (31.9 - 37.5%) -- 91.1% chance to 3HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Pixilate Diancie-Mega Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ho-Oh: 121-143 (29 - 34.3%) -- 3.7% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Diancie-Mega V-create vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Ho-Oh: 138-162 (33.1 - 38.9%) -- 99.9% chance to 3HKO

Wait, if we take a careful look here, in order for Ho-oh to consistently wall Diancie, some things have to be on condition:

* Stealth Rock has to be away or Ho-oh has to run Magic Guard
* Due to Life Orb variants of Diancie 3HKOing Ho-oh with decent chances, Ho-oh has to stay in and recover every time and in this aspect regenvest users do much better job keeping momentum
* Magic Guard with Head Smash = (Screams)

So Ho-oh, if used as defensively oriented wall, it needs to give up on its ability or it needs a hazard removal support, and it is not like most teams can get a hazard removal support just to protect a wall; unlike stuff like Mega Rayquaza or Sturdinja, what Ho-oh can do for its team in return with anti-hazard support is very disappointing.

Desolate Land p much makes Pogre experience something hopeless but then Stealth Rock happens.

tldr;

I love this bird, but full EV makes it impossible to be used offensively and defensive variants have to give up on ability or force a team to get some heavy anti-hazard support. If you say "just slap in Magic Bounce Audino lol", everyone in current metagame uses hazard setters that pressure it, such as Red Orb Groudon which simply 2HKOs Audino or other Stealth Rock users with Poison Fang.

 

[Champion Leon]

Some Diancie-Mega also carry STAB Diamond Storm, so that will not do well for Ho-Oh.

Instead of fighting Hazards, just embrace them.

Ho-Oh @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Unburden
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Belly Drum
- Spore
- Acrobatics / Diamond Storm / Spectral Thief
- Sacred Fire

Send in Ho-Oh safely after a KO... into Stealth Rocks watch it’s health drop... to half which triggers Sitrus Berry to heal 25% which activates... dun dun dun... Unburden - Imposter proofed for the win: +6 252+ Atk Ho-Oh Diamond Storm vs. 252 HP / 204+ Def Eviolite Ho-Oh: 1028-1212 (146 - 172.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Spore the foe, Belly Drum on their switch, you resist Pixelate attacks, and sometimes people don’t know Unburden is already activated on it... so they don’t bother with Extreme Speed after the Fake out.

With immediate Unburden, you get to use a +Atk Nature. With the combination of Sacred Fire and Diamond Storm you can hax a burn on foes that switch in, so it’ll cut down their Atk, and/or hax a +2 Defense to take weaker priority. Not perfect, but at least it has immediate use by Nature of immediate speed and Spore.

If you have a way of handling Chansey as an Imposter via trapping (Thousand Waves Zygarde), use Acrobatics for 165 Base power after STAB. Also I input Spectral Thief, for when you are being swept by something faster, switch in Ho-Oh, Unburden and then steal all of their boosts before their next move.

Brave Bird (110 Base Power to supplement Acrobatics):

+6 252+ Atk Ho-Oh Brave Bird (110 Base) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zygarde: 496-585 (118 - 139.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+6 252+ Atk Ho-Oh Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Kyogre-Primal: 607-715 (150.2 - 176.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+6 252+ Atk Ho-Oh Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Diancie-Mega: 291-343 (95.7 - 112.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

It’s not the best, but perhaps a surprise threat when implemented on a team that supports it.

 

[morogrim]

Some Diancie-Mega also carry STAB Diamond Storm, so that will not do well for Ho-Oh.

Instead of fighting Hazards, just embrace them.

Ho-Oh @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Unburden
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Belly Drum
- Spore
- Acrobatics / Diamond Storm / Spectral Thief
- Sacred Fire

Send in Ho-Oh safely after a KO... into Stealth Rocks watch it’s health drop... to half which triggers Sitrus Berry to heal 25% which activates... dun dun dun... Unburden - Imposter proofed for the win: +6 252+ Atk Ho-Oh Diamond Storm vs. 252 HP / 204+ Def Eviolite Ho-Oh: 1028-1212 (146 - 172.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Spore the foe, Belly Drum on their switch, you resist Pixelate attacks, and sometimes people don’t know Unburden is already activated on it... so they don’t bother with Extreme Speed after the Fake out.

With immediate Unburden, you get to use a +Atk Nature. With the combination of Sacred Fire and Diamond Storm you can hax a burn on foes that switch in, so it’ll cut down their Atk, and/or hax a +2 Defense to take weaker priority. Not perfect, but at least it has immediate use by Nature of immediate speed and Spore.

If you have a way of handling Chansey as an Imposter via trapping (Thousand Waves Zygarde), use Acrobatics for 165 Base power after STAB. Also I input Spectral Thief, for when you are being swept by something faster, switch in Ho-Oh, Unburden and then steal all of their boosts before their next move.

Brave Bird (110 Base Power to supplement Acrobatics):

+6 252+ Atk Ho-Oh Brave Bird (110 Base) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zygarde: 496-585 (118 - 139.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+6 252+ Atk Ho-Oh Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Kyogre-Primal: 607-715 (150.2 - 176.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+6 252+ Atk Ho-Oh Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Diancie-Mega: 291-343 (95.7 - 112.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

It’s not the best, but perhaps a surprise threat when implemented on a team that supports it.

You do realize you will be at 25% HP if you BD like that right...even a resisted Pixilate FakeSpeed can KO at that range.

 

[Champion Leon]

You do realize you will be at 25% HP if you BD like that right...even a resisted Pixilate FakeSpeed can KO at that range.

I do, but that’s like saying “you do realize Mold Breaker anything kills Shedinja in 1 hit, don’t you?” Everything has counters, the rest of the team is to handle them.

It’s a shame Pokémon these days only get 4 moves, if only they got more then they could do more... I guess we have to rely on teammates to handle counters...

If you want, maybe you could put another boosting move over Belly Drum, but I doubt Tail Glow, Shell Smash, Etc. Will help too much because then you might as well be a Contrarian and use Overheat, V-Create, etc. because at least that poses an immediate threat, as Stealth Rocks already cuts your HP and Shell Smash cuts down your defenses further. Tail Glow belongs on Higher SpA allies, so Unburden and Acrobat are good together and pair well with something that can use them immediately.

Ho-oh removes the obligation to Defog/Rapid Spin before being sent out, and if timed properly it’s surprise factor and immediate assistance can pay off.
If you feel they will send in Diancie or Kyurem-B, then maybe plan accordingly with your teammates. Ho-oh is to eliminate walls: you Sleep a counter like Unaware Zygarde, and then you KO the next foe on their switch-in) Diamond Storm also cuts down Fake Out and Extreme Speed by 50% if it activates, so its not completely stopped by -ate users (doubling Defense is like doubling HP, since you only take half the damage, making it like Ho-Oh is at 50%).

 

[morogrim]

I do, but that’s like saying “you do realize Mold Breaker anything kills Shedinja in 1 hit, don’t you?” Everything has counters, the rest of the team is to handle them.

It’s a shame Pokémon these days only get 4 moves, if only they got more then they could do more... I guess we have to rely on teammates to handle counters...

If you want, maybe you could put another boosting move over Belly Drum, but I doubt Tail Glow, Shell Smash, Etc. Will help too much because then you might as well be a Contrarian and use Overheat, V-Create, etc. because at least that poses an immediate threat, as Stealth Rocks already cuts your HP and Shell Smash cuts down your defenses further. Tail Glow belongs on Higher SpA allies, so Unburden and Acrobat are good together and pair well with something that can use them immediately.

Ho-oh removes the obligation to Defog/Rapid Spin before being sent out, and if timed properly it’s surprise factor and immediate assistance can pay off.
If you feel they will send in Diancie or Kyurem-B, then maybe plan accordingly with your teammates. Ho-oh is to eliminate walls: you Sleep a counter like Unaware Zygarde, and then you KO the next foe on their switch-in) Diamond Storm also cuts down Fake Out and Extreme Speed by 50% if it activates, so its not completely stopped by -ate users (doubling Defense is like doubling HP, since you only take half the damage, making it like Ho-Oh is at 50%).

The discussion is about Ho-Oh's viability in the tier, with the conclusion so far being that it is simply outclassed by other threats. I'm assuming you have posted this set to show that Ho-Oh is a viable threat but this set fails to even leave a scratch on the most common switchins to setup which is Unaware... Pgre, Mega Gyarados, and Zygarde-C all manage to completely wall this set and force it out (which btw means that it cannot come back in again unless if you remove hazards which even in that case it won't be able to BD again and will be next to useless) given that all of these Unaware users have Safety Goggles...

Now that we have established that your set is lackluster when it comes to actual wallbreaking, let's try to figure out why on earth this thing might be viable. Could it be its amazing bulk which would allow it to not be easily revenged killed? Nope, even a resisted Pixilate FakeSpeed picks this off.

So what could possibly be special about this set that would make somebody inclined to pick it over other BellyBurden sweepers such as Mega Lucario? The answer is absolutely nothing. The only thing that this mon does is spread burns with Sacred Fire which basically any mon could do without taking 50% from rocks.

 

[Champion Leon]

The discussion is about Ho-Oh's viability in the tier, with the conclusion so far being that it is simply outclassed by other threats. I'm assuming you have posted this set to show that Ho-Oh is a viable threat but this set fails to even leave a scratch on the most common switchins to setup which is Unaware... Pgre, Mega Gyarados, and Zygarde-C all manage to completely wall this set and force it out (which btw means that it cannot come back in again unless if you remove hazards which even in that case it won't be able to BD again and will be next to useless) given that all of these Unaware users have Safety Goggles...

Now that we have established that your set is lackluster when it comes to actual wallbreaking, let's try to figure out why on earth this thing might be viable. Could it be its amazing bulk which would allow it to not be easily revenged killed? Nope, even a resisted Pixilate FakeSpeed picks this off.

So what could possibly be special about this set that would make somebody inclined to pick it over other BellyBurden sweepers such as Mega Lucario? The answer is absolutely nothing. The only thing that this mon does is spread burns with Sacred Fire which basically any mon could do without taking 50% from rocks.

The answer is simple, it has immediate speed that other set up sweepers do not have. If Spore is a problem, how about Lovely Kiss, also let’s not assume all Unware users only ever use Safety Goggles and no other item ever. Spore has become less common than it used to be, and because of that, less necessary to use Safety Goggles. You can speak for yourself, but don’t pretend everyone uses the sets exactly as you outlined, yes it is common - but not the only item.

I never said it was a good set, I said it was a surprise for teams that support it. If you try and pick apart a post, please do read what is written, but since you didn’t bother to, for your convenience I have listed it again below:

It’s not the best, but perhaps a surprise threat when implemented on a team that supports it.

That wasn’t so hard now was it?

 

[Chessking345]

What ranks will the new Legendaries be?
I currently think Dusk Mane should be at least B and B+ I think might be appropriate, a slightly less bulkier Solgaleo with higher damage output and a lower speed for slow pivots
Dawn Wings should be no better than Lunala
Ultra Necrozma seems like should be B+ or A- to start off as, good offensive stats and speed is good, basically a better Mega Latios. Good Contrary typing, can run a variety of abilities to good success such as Contrary, Psychic Surge, Simple, Unburden, Tinted, APS, etc. Basically a weaker but faster MRayquaza with a debatable typing compared to MRay.

 

[Champion Leon]

For reference of Power (taken from the Necromoza thread):

+2 252 Atk Necrozma-Ultra Light That Burns the Sky vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Chansey in Psychic Terrain: 550-648 (78.1 - 92%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

What ranks will the new Legendaries be?
I currently think Dusk Mane should be at least B and B+ I think might be appropriate, a slightly less bulkier Solgaleo with higher damage output and a lower speed for slow pivots
Dawn Wings should be no better than Lunala
Ultra Necrozma seems like should be B+ or A- to start off as, good offensive stats and speed is good, basically a better Mega Latios. Good Contrary typing, can run a variety of abilities to good success such as Contrary, Psychic Surge, Simple, Unburden, Tinted, APS, etc. Basically a weaker but faster MRayquaza with a debatable typing compared to MRay.

Remember, since you can Transform, you can opt to use the Dusk Mane form’s Base typing (Steel and Psychic), to set up with the Base Ability, then Ultra Burst into the Ultra Necromoza, which switches to the Super Effective 1.2x boosting ability (basically like Expert Belt), and Dragon/Psychic typing.

The advantage would be using a superior defensive typing, setting up, then sweeping. Since you have no moveset limits, besides signature exclusives like Hoopa’s, you can likely get great moves that hit the majority of the metagame super effectively, to take advantage of its ability.

Such as Precipice Blades/Thousand Arrows, Sacred Fire, Dragon Hammer/Dual Chop (anti Focus Sash), Ice Hammer, etc.

Simple would be good, allowing it to Shell Smash, and then sweep. You would decide the moves to make it Imposter proof, remember it gets STAB Stored Power as well! Plus it is signifanctly faster than the Base Forms! It does require the Z-Crystal however.

Speaking of which, since technically there is the Roto-Loto, will there be 2 uses of Z-Crystal Z-Moves per game? How will we implement that since the Roto-Loto can have various effects.

Keep in mind that the Ultra Burst is not a Z-move, it doesn’t use up your big Attack, hence why it can use Light That Burns the Sky the turn *after it Ultra Bursts.

Now, as for the actual team, do we know if the Ultra Burst is 1x per team? If we have 2 or more Dusk Manes or the Dawn form in our team, can only 1 use Ultra Burst? Or is it like Primal Reversion where multiple can.

If you want to stay Defensive, Sub could be used to block Imposter.

I love using Pokémon that can change typing, stats and even abilities mid-battle. Reminds me of Gen 6 with the Simple Gardevoirs using Shell Smash, and then Mega Evolving to use Boom Burst and even Stored Power.

 

[cityscapes]

solgaleo to a-

steels just come off as lackluster in the current meta and i think that solgaleo is one of the more overrated ones. regenvest provides momentum but it's so easy for something to take advantage of it.

z thousand waves mega diancie and mega rayquaza have been used in snake draft to trap and remove steels. at least registeel can potentially threaten to remove these mons with destiny bond, or stall out z waves with prankster recovery. solgaleo does nothing. it just dies.

in addition, regenvest solgaleo (ff isn't an a rank set) provides almost no utility whatsoever. it's too fast to underspeed defensive pivots, it fails to prevent giratina from spinblocking (and in return, giratina can threaten it with spectral/core), it's hindered terribly by sleep (so nearly all spore users can beat it with some luck)... i think you'd have an easier time listing the things this mon can do than the things it can't.

please drop solgaleo.

on the new guys: they all suck and i don't think any should be above c. necrozma ultra is outclassed by mmy, dawn wings is a better lunala which is decent but lunala isn't that good, dusk mane is a worse solgaleo, blacephalon looks kinda neat but i haven't seen it. zeraora is faster than mmy which is cool

discussion pls

 

[thepokemonmasterrrr]

Dusk mane is not a worse solgaleo, it has compramable bulk and 20 more attack. Def A rank imo. Ultra necrozma also isn't a worse mmy, with dragon stab it can break through stuff like zygc and Tina easier. Ultra necrozma deserves at least B- tbh

 

[Rumors]

My vote is at the very, very, very least wait for USUM to be out for a week before trying to rate the stuff it added or rate things based on meta changes it brings. >.>

 

[Pikachuun]

Dusk mane is not a worse solgaleo, it has compramable bulk and 20 more attack. Def A rank imo.

I think the lower speed is all it has going for it, tbh, but even then in some cases this is undesirable. For the most part the bulk is JUST enough of a difference to make it a worse solgaleo besides these two situational aspects of it.

some examples of what dusk mane necrozma gives you in terms of bulk

252 SpA Choice Specs Mewtwo-Mega-Y Moongeist Beam vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Solgaleo: 230-272 (48.2 - 57%) -- 89.8% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Mewtwo-Mega-Y Moongeist Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 202-238 (50.7 - 59.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Guaranteed 2HKO vs small chance to live 2

252 Atk Mewtwo-Mega-X Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252 Def Solgaleo: 198-234 (41.5 - 49%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Mewtwo-Mega-X Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 175-207 (43.9 - 52%) -- 12.5% chance to 2HKO
Adds in the small possibility for a 2HKO
252+ Atk Mewtwo-Mega-X Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252 Def Solgaleo: 217-256 (45.4 - 53.6%) -- 40.2% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Mewtwo-Mega-X Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 193-228 (48.4 - 57.2%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO
Turns a coin flip into basically a 2HKO

252 Atk Diancie-Mega V-create vs. 248 HP / 252 Def Solgaleo: 346-408 (72.5 - 85.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after 1 layer of Spikes
252 Atk Diancie-Mega V-create vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 306-362 (76.8 - 90.9%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes
idk who runs spikes, i should try it at some point to hit steels like this harder, but it can make a difference here
Side note that both of these will outspeed if you run max speed, but not min, which I think might defeat the point of running Dusk for the slowness

I don't believe the attack gets any notable 2HKOs/3HKOs against walls but correct me if I'm wrong. I know that it at least can 2HKO MMY though 25% of the time.

So what about speed since I mentioned it?
If you run Necrozma, you get slow pivoting abilities, very handy when going against something like giratina in which Solgaleo is guaranteed to outspeed. You also get the ability to Core Enforcer better, perfect for stuff like Giratina and Kyogre. However, you lose out on that bit of bulk that can matter at times, which I talked about in depth.
If you run Solgaleo, you get a faster pivot with slightly better bulk. While faster pivoting, most of the time, is bleh, this speed can be crucial just like a slow Core Enforcer/U-turn can be crucial simply due to the speed tier it's at and how much the speed varies between the two. Hypothetically, say they switch in an Adamant PDon (reminder that all of these are Red Orb now) on both of your mons, but it's at low HP and can potentially recover. Solgaleo (max speed ofc) can outspeed and pick it off with something like Core, Spectral Thief, whatever, with 0 risk, or just pivot out if you can't kill it and don't wanna risk the bait. With Necrozma, you cannot do this, and must either decide between them V-creating you into oblivion or using Synthesis and getting free HP. V-create MMY is another example, albeit it's a rare lure set. Solgaleo will always outspeed a -1 MMY, regardless of MMY's nature (it hits 277 Speed at max vs Solga's 252 EV'd 293). Necrozma will be unable to outspeed a positively natured MMY at -1 without being positively natured itself, but a non-positive nature it can do if Necrozma has 252 EVs in speed, by 1 point (either that or it's a speed tie I forget whether it rounds up or down but I think it's down?).

Basically, while the bulk is "comparable" like you said, it's still slightly worse. The attack buff isn't really anything to write home about, since most of the time you won't be using Solgaleo for any sort of offensive role anyway, and when you are, it's to punish frailer things and/or Shed. The lower speed, while useful, can be situational in its usefulness due to the huge gap between the two of them.
As for ranking Necrozma-Dusk, I'd personally rank it slightly lower than Solgaleo thanks to its lower bulk, but I wouldn't say it's outclassed enough to not rank it all-together (like Blissey isn't because of Chansey's existence) thanks to the speed being a situational benefit. Probably B+ seeing how steels aren't really doing good in the meta right now, judging by the SM meta

 

[Magii]

Have Naganandel and the other new UBS, and their moves, or are they not good enough for the meta?

 

[Pikachuun]

Have Naganandel and the other new UBS, and their moves, or are they not good enough for the meta?

Nagandel: Cool typing, but everything else about it is bad by BH standards. MRay does its job better as an offensive Dragon type for the most part, and Sludge Wave is actually not really that strong.

eh

252 SpA Naganadel Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Audino-Mega: 186-222 (45.3 - 54.1%) -- 45.7% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Naganadel Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Audino-Mega: 206-246 (50.2 - 60%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Only purpose of running it would be for Dragon/Poison coverage, and it just kinda loses to everything else that can take one of its STABs or is just outclassed by MRay in that aspect.

Blacephalon: Better Chandelure. However, Chandelure wasn't really that good to begin with... It's essentially outclassed by MGar outside of the sick Fire STAB. Considering how most of the relevant ways to deal with MGar are either Regenvest Ogre or otherwise resist Fire... except MAudino and Yveltal, but Blue Flare does even less to Audino than Nagandel does... then again
252 SpA Blacephalon Blue Flare vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Yveltal: 174-205 (38.1 - 44.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
At least it gets a 2HKO on Yveltal if SR is up so that's cool

Stakataka: ...Interesting to say the least.
It may have an absolutely abysmal typing for dealing with things like Fighting- and Ground-type coverage that is slowly growing more common and also just dies instantly to Ogre, but it does have a solid niche imo in its ability to check any -ate that currently exists (except Galvanize, but that's an -ize, not an -ate), Xerneas, and also being the slowest realistically used pivot known to all of mankind. Essentially, if it doesn't have coverage explicitly dedicated for it, it will be walled. Fair warning that it's frailer on the Special side... but it can still take hits there too, somehow.
In particular the niche I really want to point out that people are probably sleeping on is the ability to wall -ate + Fire Coverage (outside of specs but specs just tears through everything besides FC chans anyway), something previously unwallable except by a FF steel (or Bastiodon but what does it do back???).

wow it takes fire

252 Atk Rayquaza-Mega V-create vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Stakataka: 114-135 (34.9 - 41.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Rayquaza-Mega Blue Flare vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Stakataka: 130-153 (39.8 - 46.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Diancie-Mega Mind Blown vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Stakataka: 136-161 (41.7 - 49.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (even if your foe is MG Diancie you win if it's not LO)

Just be really careful to scout beforehand for ground coverage. You will lose to it if it's on an -ate, and since Thousand Waves/Tectonic seems to be growing in popularity...
Its slowness also nets it the ability to fire off powerful Gyro Balls that honestly can deal a fair bit of damage, even to bulkier threats that would otherwise set up on it freely or just get a free switchin.

nice

252 Atk Stakataka Gyro Ball (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Mewtwo-Mega-X: 195-231 (46.8 - 55.5%) -- 72.7% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Stakataka Gyro Ball (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Regigigas: 183-216 (43.1 - 50.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Poison Heal
252 Atk Stakataka Gyro Ball (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 157-186 (31.1 - 36.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery (NOTE: Min Speed Giratina, yes, Stakataka is that slow)

I'm not gonna try to oversell this mon though because of the weaknesses I mentioned earlier, but I certainly see it having at least a slight presence.

Overall:
all ubs are shit except for stakataka WHO WILL MAKE BALANCED HACKMONS GREAT AGAIN!!

 

[willdbeast]

Nagandel: Cool typing, but everything else about it is bad by BH standards. MRay does its job better as an offensive Dragon type for the most part, and Sludge Wave is actually not really that strong.

eh

252 SpA Naganadel Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Audino-Mega: 186-222 (45.3 - 54.1%) -- 45.7% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Naganadel Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Audino-Mega: 206-246 (50.2 - 60%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Only purpose of running it would be for Dragon/Poison coverage, and it just kinda loses to everything else that can take one of its STABs or is just outclassed by MRay in that aspect.

Blacephalon: Better Chandelure. However, Chandelure wasn't really that good to begin with... It's essentially outclassed by MGar outside of the sick Fire STAB. Considering how most of the relevant ways to deal with MGar are either Regenvest Ogre or otherwise resist Fire... except MAudino and Yveltal, but Blue Flare does even less to Audino than Nagandel does... then again
252 SpA Blacephalon Blue Flare vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Yveltal: 174-205 (38.1 - 44.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
At least it gets a 2HKO on Yveltal if SR is up so that's cool

Stakataka: ...Interesting to say the least.
It may have an absolutely abysmal typing for dealing with things like Fighting- and Ground-type coverage that is slowly growing more common and also just dies instantly to Ogre, but it does have a solid niche imo in its ability to check any -ate that currently exists (except Galvanize, but that's an -ize, not an -ate), Xerneas, and also being the slowest realistically used pivot known to all of mankind. Essentially, if it doesn't have coverage explicitly dedicated for it, it will be walled. Fair warning that it's frailer on the Special side... but it can still take hits there too, somehow.
In particular the niche I really want to point out that people are probably sleeping on is the ability to wall -ate + Fire Coverage (outside of specs but specs just tears through everything besides FC chans anyway), something previously unwallable except by a FF steel (or Bastiodon but what does it do back???).

wow it takes fire

252 Atk Rayquaza-Mega V-create vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Stakataka: 114-135 (34.9 - 41.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Rayquaza-Mega Blue Flare vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Stakataka: 130-153 (39.8 - 46.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Diancie-Mega Mind Blown vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Stakataka: 136-161 (41.7 - 49.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (even if your foe is MG Diancie you win if it's not LO)

Just be really careful to scout beforehand for ground coverage. You will lose to it if it's on an -ate, and since Thousand Waves/Tectonic seems to be growing in popularity...
Its slowness also nets it the ability to fire off powerful Gyro Balls that honestly can deal a fair bit of damage, even to bulkier threats that would otherwise set up on it freely or just get a free switchin.

nice

252 Atk Stakataka Gyro Ball (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Mewtwo-Mega-X: 195-231 (46.8 - 55.5%) -- 72.7% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Stakataka Gyro Ball (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Regigigas: 183-216 (43.1 - 50.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Poison Heal
252 Atk Stakataka Gyro Ball (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 157-186 (31.1 - 36.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery (NOTE: Min Speed Giratina, yes, Stakataka is that slow)

I'm not gonna try to oversell this mon though because of the weaknesses I mentioned earlier, but I certainly see it having at least a slight presence.

Overall:
all ubs are shit except for stakataka WHO WILL MAKE BALANCED HACKMONS GREAT AGAIN!!

Just to add one thing that wasn't said explicitly: Stakataka's two stabs hit Mega Ray, Mega Diancie and Kyurems super effectively and it has decent attack for a literal wall so it can threaten them out quite easily.

The new slowish offensive mons in Psudo Lunala and Psudo Solgaleo (plus banded steelworker Stakataka!) mean that Trick Room is probably better than before, which isn't saying much.

Calcs

252+ Atk Choice Band Steelworker Stakataka Gyro Ball (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 387-456 (76.7 - 90.4%)

 

[Deleted User 91486]

Also, if anyone out there plans to build a sand team, Stakataka does get the SpD boost due to being part Rock type, so it might be even better on those teams.

 

[Funbot28]

Another Viability Ranking update coming through for the USUM metagame:

Mega Audino: A -> A-

Xerneas: A- -> A

Kangaskhan (Kangaskhanite): B+ -> A-

Groudon (Red Orb): UR -> B+

Mega Garchomp: B- -> B

Mega Blaziken: UR -> C

Tapu Fini: C -> D

Necrozma Dusk-Mane: UR -> B+

Ultra-Necrozma: UR -> B

Stakataka: UR -> D

The ability listings will also get a major revamp as well, alongside other resources like the Check Compendium and Speed Tiers.

 

[cityscapes]

first off why were these changes made? i understand some of them but why is ultra necrozma b, why is dusk mane b+ and why were mega audino and xern switched around?

aegi to b
i feel like this has been coming for a long time. you might see it as a ghost type registeel with slightly worse bulk, but the bulk difference between it and registeel is actually really noticeable:

252 SpA Choice Specs Aerilate Rayquaza-Mega Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 156-183 (48.1 - 56.4%) -- 88.3% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Aerilate Rayquaza-Mega Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Registeel: 156-183 (42.8 - 50.2%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Mewtwo-Mega-Y Psycho Boost vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Aegislash-Shield in Psychic Terrain: 189-222 (58.3 - 68.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Mewtwo-Mega-Y Psycho Boost vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Registeel in Psychic Terrain: 189-222 (51.9 - 60.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(aegi has a chance to die to the second one, especially after stealth rock)

252 Atk Choice Band Mewtwo-Mega-X Photon Geyser vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Aegislash-Shield in Psychic Terrain: 132-156 (40.7 - 48.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO my favorite mmx answer

the speed difference (base 50 vs. base 60) means that you can't u-turn after slow guys like mega audino, registeel, and muk-a. faster defensive guys like giratina and kyogre can threaten it out with spectral thief coming off stab or base 150 attack.

and this brings me to the major point against aegi: it just gets pressured by everything. prankster is the only good ability because otherwise it doesn't get the chance to do anything; prankster recovery is so necessary for it.

252 Atk Giratina Spectral Thief vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Aegislash-Shield: 134-158 (41.3 - 48.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

this is an example of one of the best defensive mons in the meta pressuring aegi. it actually needs a +def nature to avoid the 2hko.

aegi was used twice in bh snake draft 1 2. in the first game it was forced to click a recovery move a ton and it eventually died to diancie's z thousand waves without really accomplishing anything. in the second game it set up rocks and took 40% from ray's dragon hammer, forcing it to spam recovery some more :cool:

overall i'd say that there's not much of a reason to use aegi anymore over other steels. it's a crutch that improves the team's matchup against shed teams but makes it so much worse against everything else. b+ is completely overselling it and i think that it should drop.

 

[GmU pokeboss9]

first off why were these changes made? i understand some of them but why is ultra necrozma b, why is dusk mane b+ and why were mega audino and xern switched around?

aegi to b
i feel like this has been coming for a long time. you might see it as a ghost type registeel with slightly worse bulk, but the bulk difference between it and registeel is actually really noticeable:
.

Maybe Aegislash stands for both Shield and Blade form.

Im laddering with Aegislash-Blade with modest success. (around 1500)
Either Prankster Sash or Magic Guard Sash Smash.

The Registeel vs Aegislash question is heavily in Registeels favor
considering how many Contrary Moongeist Beam are around.

So much stuff is Ghost weak now, both Mewtwos and all Necrozma forms.
Spectral Thief got better than Core Enforcer aswell, cuz there is a new answer to Regigigas.


Stakataka, its neutral to Core Enforcer and Spectral Thief.
It balances some move choices like V-Create vs Precipice Blades and Secret Sword vs Aura Spehre.

It can tank an UnSTAB physical 4x moves;
252+ Atk Regigigas Precipice Blades vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Stakataka: 276-328 (84.6 - 100.6%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

Special 4x are a 1HKO without sand;
252 SpA Gengar-Mega Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Stakataka: 340-400 (104.2 - 122.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

I see it mostly uses Gyro Ball and 13 Speed makes a super slow pivot,
It also makes both Trick Room and Sand more viable.


Sand can scout for Googles on walls and finish off sweepers reliant to Focus Sash.
The Special Defense Boost also helps Tyranitar and M-Diancie, i have seen some Sand Rush MMY too.

Trick Room lasts only for 5 turns but it can be set up by hyper offense with -ate + Explosion
Lowest priority means safety from Core Enforcers ability loss, so a Magic Bouncer works really well here.

In reverse turn order you can utilize some fake revenge killing with Reversal and Endeavor.
Knock Off Plates, double Spectral Thief or some pseudo trapping like Infestation + Encore become much more potent.


I watched a 1700 match between Ducky and ssjjynx today, none of them had a Chansey.
Most used poke was M-Gengar (3 in total), no Necrozma and clones at high ladder.

 

[E4 Flint]

Announcements:
The initial USUM update for VR and Speed Tiers is done

• BH VR has been updated (see here)
  • I took some feedback here from Silver_Lucario42 about aegislash
  • Changed the meta rank to include imposter in general, and not Chansey similar to what Willdbeast mentioned
  • For more information, check out the VR Changelog
• BH VR has been updated to only include the top 3 best sets run on a Pokemon
• Both Speed Tiers have been updated
• Both Speed Tiers have been updated so that users can now search by name after opening only one Hide tag
• Fixes to typos, naming conventions, old information, inconsistent formatting, OP etc

We will continue to work on the following projects over the coming weeks: Sample Teams, Setpedia, Role Compendium.

Also this is my 500th. Thanks all for your continued support.

 

[Scarf]

Hullo everyone. You may have noticed the sample teams are a bit old. Once again we (the BHC team) ask that you submit any teams you'd like for us to accept as a sample team. Please also provide some evidence proving your team's worth, either via ladder accomplishments or replays.

---

To begin, here are a couple teams from me. I built these a long time ago but they should work nicely in today's meta as well. They're also quite similar since I'm a pretty uncreative builder but w/e. I used these two on the ladder from time to time, peaking at #2, beneath morogrim's 2000+ ELO score before decaying into oblivion. Additionally, in the recent TDKD tournament, I've used slight variations of both of these in every set excluding the semifinals and the finals, in which it worked excellently.

​

I like to think of this as a fairly generic "Shedinja-archetype" team, if such a thing exists. You have strong support from its team-mates (Misty Surge Zygarde, Magic Bounce Xerneas) enabling Shedinja to be safe and eliminate the opposing team's Pokemon one by one. If you're against an opponent that does not adequately prepare against Shedinja, they'll get destroyed. A Magic Bounce Fairy means that not even Core Enforcer can stop it from preventing hazards. If that fails, you have Yveltal to spin, a Pokemon the primary spinblocker can't exactly stop. One downside, the Shedinja counter = Rocky Helmet / PP stall Endeavor with dual Regenerators :(.

​

Another generic balance team, except this one has Zekrom on it. Not many people use it. I personally think it has a lot of potential. I'm using a Shell Smash set with dual STAB and Taunt for defensive answers like Prankster guys or whatever. At +2 it's very hard to stop defensively. Check out my games vs Quantum Tesseract in the TDKD tourney to see that set (and this team) in action. The other slots are dedicated to one improofer (Xerneas) and large defensive core of the other 4 things to defensively check most of everything else.

 

[ElMustacho]

team

Imperial Sky Dragon (Rayquaza-Mega) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Tinted Lens
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Core Enforcer
- Oblivion Wing
- Secret Sword
- Knock Off

Cernunnos (Xerneas) @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Spore
- Magma Storm
- Quiver Dance
- Moonblast

Nidhogg (Yveltal) @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Knock Off
- Pursuit
- U-turn
- Core Enforcer

Metal star dog (Solgaleo) @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Nuzzle
- Defog
- Core Enforcer
- U-turn

Hairy fat tall guy (Zygarde-Complete) @ Safety Goggles
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 3 Spe
- Haze
- Encore
- Parting Shot
- Shore Up

S for Shield (Aegislash) @ Safety Goggles
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Skill Swap
- Shore Up
- Spectral Thief
- Stealth Rock

This is the (only) team that got me to the peak of ladder.
The first set is the E4 flint Ray's set, with a modification in movepool; since a lot of regenvesters like to switch on ray, knock off punishes them. The other moves are self explanatory, Secret Sword can be changed to Aura Sphere to nail Stakataka better. All of this is walled by Xerneas, when PH is working.
Xerneas is my status absorber and ph healer. Unlike other ph healers, Xerneas actually forces out the imposter with the threat of Magma Storm + Spore, if I trap it on the switch or the opponent is foolish enough to stay in, imposter then becomes setup bait. Other than that if it sets up things go awry for the opponent. Is imposterproof, but Aegi walls it anyway.
Quite standard set for AV Yveltal; pursuit means I can chip at anything it doesn't want to stay in, like MMY locked in a resisted move. Can wall itself, and Xerneas can switch in if poisoned.
Unconventional set for Solgaleo; it was running AV but rapid spin is terrible on Solgaleo. So I equipped Rocky helmet and went with Defog. Nuzzle pisses off fast stuff. Walled by Zyggy and Xern when ph is on.
Zyggy runs prankster because why not. Typing makes it immune to nuzzle. EVed to underspeed my own solgaleo should it switch on Core enforcer; that way I get to keep momentum. Hard countered by Yveltal.
Aegislash is sort of underrated. Typing is awesome, bulk is OK, and this set is one of the best way to check Contrary. Please note that every move starts with an "S". Skill swap is used to remove Magic Bounce from anything and set up SR. It also works nicely when you want to force out ph pokemon immune to core enforcer. Spectral thief steal boosts, but it can easily be U-turn. Yveltal covers it ok.

 

[willdbeast]

Here's a team I thought I'd post as a sample because I've had decent success on the ladder with it:

Built around Magic Guard mmy improofed by imposter using Strength Sap for amazing longevity and Leftovers Diancie because motherlove says "that shit never dies". The rest is fairly standard defensive stuff with solgaleo as a spike stacker who can trap either its own or the two offensive mon's imposters as well as checking contrary and -ates etc. If the switch to a magic bounce fairy and you anchor shot the z-move does a number on them next turn.

Provenance

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-670530782 against ladder #5 or something
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-669645291 against some random dude running HO
Sadly these replays are before the core enforcer changes which make this team slightly worse.

Threats:
Setup spam, especially Power Trip and Kartana
PH xern
Flash Fire steels if they have good hazard control
Surge mmx