BH Balanced Hackmons Central Resources

why would you run an inaccurate stab on a defensive mon when better options (tarrows, twaves, even eq) exist? It doesn't even show up on the usage stats.

(yes I know Pdon does this sometimes in Ubers/AG but that has 180 base attack in a much frailer metagame)
Here is the updated rankings, Steelix is listed under the August update, EQ isn't better since it has 15 less accuracy for 20 (30 with stab) higher base power. The trade off in power makes up for any misses, yes most people prefer the effects of 1K waves or 1K Arrows, but it depends on their intention. Either way, EQ is moot
Deoxys-Speed isn't good in the current meta - we already had this discussoon here - and your hazards may get removed. You need better improofing (or remove frost breath from POgre), otherwise your team loses to Imposter.

Also you don't seem to realize that BH battles usually take way more than 100 turns - at least high-ladder ones - so that one-time items like Psychic Seeed over AV on Solgaleo, one-time hazard setters like Deoxys-Speed and one-time abilities like Electric Surge pre-primal are almost useless.

Shedinja doesn't really need the Lum Berry as status is pretty rare, Protective Pads are usually preferred to be able to spam Endeavor without having to worry about Rocky Helmet, Baneful Bunker or Spiny Shield.
I see many Deoxys-Speed, because it can avoid Taunt, Dark, Psychic Terrain, and Dazzling/Queenly Majesty blocking fast Spore, Stealth Rocks, Destiny Bond, etc., it's clear you don't use them or play a more defense play style which is why you believe 100 turn
Matches are common on high level plays, but I run into them from other players frequently.

Rumors I meant to say that my posts of Electric Surge MManectric were for the topic of Role Compendum, and not so much about Electric Terrain being better than galvanize, but a matter of what is the best Electric Surge user, in the event one needs an Electric Surge user for their team.

I.e. Galvanize > Electric Surge unless you are going to combine both effects, in which case you need an Electric Surger on your team.

Also, I was trying to think of what to add that would go off of some Electric Surge MManectric sets such as the post below.

Not got much to add except Manectric can also function as the Terrain setter and a quick pivot. Here's a set I made for an example, probably not optimal:
Manectric-Mega @ Terrain Extender / Choice Specs / Darkinium Z
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Volt Switch / Parting Shot
- Ice Beam
- Steam Eruption
- Destiny Bond / Thunderbolt

Functions similarly to Volt Switch Psychic Surge mmy as a fast pivot and terrain setter but probably only worth it on dedicated ETerrain teams.

I think Terrain setting is definitely a notable role but maybe not so commonly needed that we should include it in resources.
Role compendum isn't about a Pokémon that's best set happens to fulfill the role for the team, it simply is about the best Pokémon to fulfill that specific role for the team even if it isn't the best set for that particular Pokémon in general, because the team it is apart of would make the set worthwhile.

I.e. Think of non-BH Trick Room role user- Trick Room is typically a hard strategy to use because it demands specific teamates, and is likely not the best set for anything on its own, but when it comes to who the best users of it are, and who fits in that team, (combining all factors), Trick room users become good enough to fulfill a role in the first place, because of what they bring to the team, that can typically counter faster foes, and not just because of what they do individually on their own with their set.
TLDR- I'm not nominating something for a VR ranking, just for fulfilling a role that others cannot do: fast Terrain setter, for the benefit of a Galvanize team, similar to a Trick Room user having to use a Move slot and turn on Trick Room, but enabling a play style that makes the pay off worth the Pokémon not using its best "standard set".

For example non-BH Porygon 2 with Eviolite and Trick room is not its best set, but when it comes to a Trick Room team, it can be one of the best users because many other slow Trick Room setters are Weak to Dark and Ghost types, and thus Porygon2 serves a role as one of the better users because it is not weak to Ghost, Dark, etc. and has a good movepool, defenses, etc. which gives it an edge against other TR users, making its set perfect for the right team.
 
Last edited:
In the role compendium under "Imposter-Proof Setup Sweepers" it lists normalize Arceus with Ghostium-Z. I took the role to mean "Self Improof Sweepers" since this is what all the others in the category are and if it just meant "is possible to improof somehow" then basically everything would fit there. So how exactly does normalize Arceus fit this? All it means if they can hit you with STAB normal moves just like you can, the only difference being you have a z-move which doesn't even effect them.

Also in this category PDon should probably have Unburden Belly Drum since this is an extremely powerful and not uncommon set.

Final point: if marshadow has been deemed completely unviable, not even worthy of a lowly D ranking, why has it got sets listed in the role compendium? Surely having roles would imply viability.

Edit to avoid double post:

Firstly, in the speed tiers I believe there should be Xurkitree and Scarf Xurkitree, maybe even +2 since it's a fairly viable Pokémon (B) compared to for example Pheromosa (C) and Pidgeot-Mega (D) which are both listed (in multiple places). I also believe Solgaleo should be included in its +2 tier for its Unburden Drum set.

In the speed tiers (positive) when you open the hide underneath Mega Pidgeot at 341 it says "Rayquaza-Mega". I'd also question exactly how relevant a non speed nature Mega Pidgeot is but it's not really doing any harm there.

In the speed tiers 297, 326, 594 and 652 which involve Xerneas and Yveltal the pictures are ordered alphabetically with Xerneas first but the names of the Pokemon are with Yveltal first and yet another hideous flaw: in the 278, 306, 459, 558 and 612 speed tiers the Pokémon are listed by name in alphabetical order but in the sprites Kyogre-Primal appears before Groudon-Primal!

I thought E4 Flint said the delay was due to alphabeticalising it all...
 
Last edited:
save the speed tiers

  • +2 quick feet mega ray seems reasonable but don't those run tail glow? they usually don't need the extra speed
  • shell smash pheromosa is terrible. man you using that to beat other smashers at +2? needs that positive nature to beat those simple lunala that i see all the time on the ladder. please remove
  • some smash users (deoa, marsh, arc, mray, mpidgeot, mdiancie, kyurems) should not be +speed like i can kind of see stuff like mmy wanting to outspeed gengar unboosted to prevent entrainment but these guys just want the extra power
  • where do +1 pheromosa hoopa u mdiancie and gren come into play? all are bad with contrary and qd. gren should be with the other 598s. what even is shell smash kanga
  • 558 is neutral base 90s, not positive
  • 538 mmx should be neutral nature and +1. shift gear zyg is an ev limit set
  • +2 magearna what
  • add +speed mpidgeot, that's at 375
  • both things at 359 are wrong, the correct answer is neutral +0
  • i would recommend adding +speed kartana at 348
  • 341 pls
  • guys at 299 are neutral nature
  • solgaleo should be neutral nature
  • 252+ chansey is no set, 252 should be listed
  • 166 ogre
  • 146 "buzz"
  • as much as i love skarmory-mega i think the names should be standardized
everything else is fine

anyway i think that the stuff shouldn't be in hide tags. it just makes an extra step you need to open them up. the minisprites are useful tho

compare to ou speed tiers (sorry for bbcode being bad):
SM OU speed tiers

Tier 0 (Fastest to >+1 Base 110s)

710 / Scolipede / 112 / +Spe / 252 / +2
700 / Diancie (Mega) / 110/ +Spe / 252 / +2
678 / Sharpedo (Mega) / 105 / +Spe / 252 / +2
638 / Diancie (Mega) / 110/ Neutral / 252 / +2
656 / Charizard (Mega-X), Salamence, Volcarona / 100 / +Spe / 252 / +2
630 / Terrakion / 108 / Neutral / 252 / +2
620 / Hawlucha / 118 / Neutral / +2
620 / Charizard (Mega-X), Volcarona / +Spe / 184 / +2
618 / Sharpedo (Mega) / Neutral / 252 / +2
618 / Landorus-Therian / +Spe / 91 / +2
604 / Excadrill / 88 / +Spe / 252 / +2
598 / Charizard (Mega-X), Salamence, Volcarona / 100 / Neutral / +2
591 / Tapu Koko / 130 / +Spe / 252 / +1
590 / Kingdra / 85 / +Spe / 252 / +2
578 / Sharpedo / 95 / Neutral / 252 / +2
574 / Gyarados, Gyarados (Mega) / 81/ +Spe / 252 / +2
568 / Dragonite / 80 / +Spe / 252 / +2
566 / Greninja / 122 / +Spe / 252 / +1
562 / Landorus-Therian / 91 / Neutral / 252 / +2
558 / Dugtrio/ 120 / +Spe / 252 / +1
552 / Landorus-Therian / 91 / Neutral / 232 / +2
550 / Excadrill / 88 / Neutral / 252 / +2
538 / Tapu Koko / 130 / Neutral / 252 / +1
538 / Kingdra / 85 / Neutral / 252 / +2
533 / Scolipede / 112 / +Spe / 252 / +1
526 / Kingdra / 85 / Neutral / 228 / +2

Tier 1 (+1 Base 110 to +1 Neutral Base 83)

525 / Gengar, Latias, Latios / 110 / +Spe / 252 / +1
524 / Swampert (Mega) / 70 / +Spe / 252 / +2
522 / Kartana / 109 / +Spe / 252 / +1
519 / Infernape, Keldeo, Terrakion / 108 / +Spe / 252 / +1
518 / Dragonite / 80 / Neutral / 252 / +2
509 / Dugtrio / 120 / Neutral / 252 / +1
508 / Sharpedo (Mega) / 105 / +Spe / 252 / +1
502 / Nihilego / 103 / +Spe / 252 / +1
502 / Magearna / 65 / +Spe / 252 / +2
499 / Garchomp / 102 / +Spe / 252 / +1
496 / Thundurus-Therian / 101 / +Spe / +1
492 / Charizard (Mega-X), Jirachi, Manaphy, Salamence, Victini, Volcarona, / 100 / +Spe / 252 / +1
486 / Hydreigon / 98 / +Spe / 252 / +1
486 / Celesteela / 61 / +Spe / 252 / +2
478 / Swampert (Mega) / 70 / Neutral / 252 / +2
475 / Kyurem-Black, Sharpedo, Tapu Lele / 95 / +Spe / 252 / +1
465 / Charizard (Mega-X), Volcarona / 100 / +Spe / 184 / +1
465 / Kyurem-Black / 95 / +Spe / 224 / +1
463 / Sharpedo (Mega) / 105 / Neutral / 252 / +1
463 / Landorus-Therian / 91 / +Spe / 252 / +1
459 / Porygon-Z / 90 / +Spe / 252 / +1
458 / Magearna / 65 / Neutral / 252 / +2
458 / Omastar / 55 / +Spe / 252 / +2
453 / Excadrill / 88 / +Spe / 252 / +1
448 / Charizard (Mega-X), Manaphy, Salamence, Volcarona / 100 / Neutral / 252 / +1
442 / Nidoking, Tapu Fini, Zygarde / 85 / +Spe / 252 / +1
442 / Celesteela / 61 / Neutral / 252 / +2
438 / Aerodactyl (Mega), Alakazam (Mega) / 150 / +Spe / 252 / 0
433 / Sharpedo, Tapu Lele / 95 / Neutral / 252 / +1
430 / Gyarados, Gyarados (Mega) / 81 / +Spe / 252 / +1
426 / Dragonite, Hoopa-Unbound / 80 / +Spe / 252 / +1
423 / Buzzwole / 79 / +Spe / 252 / +1
418 / Omastar / 55 / Neutral / 252 / +2
417 / Heatran / 77 / +Spe / 252 / +1
409 / Tapu Bulu / 75 / +Spe / 252 / +1
406 / Necrozma / 79 / Neutral / 36 / +2
405 / Lopunny (Mega), Manectric (Mega) / 135 / +Spe / 252 / 0
399 / Greninja (Ash) / 132 / +Spe / 252 / 0
397 / Tyranitar (Mega) / 71 / +Spe / 252 / +1

Tier 2 (Max Speed+ base 130 to Max Speed+ base 112)

394 / Tapu Koko / 130 / +Spe / 252 / 0
393 / Bisharp, Breloom, Volcanion / 70 / +Spe / 252 / +1
391 / Gyarados, Gyarados (Mega) / 81 / Neutral / 252 / +1
388 / Dragonite / 80 / Neutral / 252 / +1
386 / Talonflame / 126 / +Spe / 252 / 0
383 / Weavile, / 125 / +Spe / 252 / 0
377 / Greninja / 122 / +Spe / 252 / 0
375 / Tornadus-Therian / 121 / +Spe / 252 / 0
372 / Alakazam, Dugtrio / 120 / +Spe / 252 / 0
364 / Tyranitar / 61 / +Spe / 252 / +1
361 / Azelf, Starmie / 115 / +Spe / 252 / 0
357 / Serperior / 113 / +Spe / 252 / 0
355 / Scolipede / 112 / +Spe / 252 / 0

Tier 3 (Max Speed+ Base 111 to Max Speed neutral Base 101)

353 / Thundurus / 111 / +Spe / 252 / 0
351 / Talonflame / 126 / Neutral / 252 / 0
350 / Diancie (Mega), Gallade (Mega) Gengar, Latias, Latias (Mega), Latios, / 110 / +Spe / 252 / 0
348 / Kartana, Ninetales (Alola) / 109 / +Spe / 252
346 / Keldeo, Terrakion / 108 / +Spe / 252 / 0
339 / Pinsir (Mega), Sharpedo (Mega) / 105 / +Spe / 252 / 0
335 / Nihilego / 103 / +Spe / 252 / 0
333 / Garchomp / 102 / +Spe / 252 / 0
331 / Thundurus-Therian / 101 / +Spe / 252 / 0
328 / Charizard (Mega-X), Charizard (Mega-Y), Gardevoir (Mega), Medicham (Mega), Manaphy, Salamence, Victini, Volcarona / 100 / +Spe / 252 / 0
324 / Hydreigon / 98 / +Spe / 252 / 0
320 / Mimikyu / 96 / +Spe / 252 / 0
319 / Diancie (Mega) / 110/ Neutral / 252 / +0
317 / Gliscor, Kyurem, Kyurem-Black, Tapu Lele, Zygarde / 95 / +Spe / 252 / 0
315 / Terrakion / 108 / Neutral / 252 / 0
311 / Garchomp (Mega) / 92 / +Spe / 252 / 0
310 / Hawlucha / 118 / Neutral / +0
310 / Charizard (Mega-X), Volcarona / 100 / +Spe / 184 / 0
309 / Landorus-Therian / 91 / +Spe / 252 / 0
309 / Pinsir (Mega), Sharpedo (Mega) / 105 / Neutral / 252 / 0
306 / Porygon-Z, / 90 / +Spe / 252 / 0
305 / Nihilego / 103 / Neutral / 252 / 0
303 / Garchomp / 102 / Neutral / 252 / 0
302 / Excadrill / 88 / +Spe / 252 / 0
301 / Thundurus-Therian / 101 / Neutral / 252 / 0

Tier 4 (Max Speed neutral Base 100 to Max Speed neutral base 83)

299 / Charizard (Mega-X), Charizard (Mega-Y), Gardevoir (Mega), Medicham (Mega), Manaphy, Salamence, Victini, Volcarona / 100 / Neutral / 252 / 0
295 / Hydreigon / 98 / Neutral / 252 / 0
295 / Kingdra, Nidoking, Tapu Fini, / 85 / +Spe / 252 / 0
291 / Mimikyu / 96 / Neutral / 252 / 0
290 / Mew / 100 / +Spe / 112 / 0
290 / Suicune / 85 / +Spe / 232 / 0
289 / Gliscor, Kyurem, Kyurem-Black, Sharpedo, Tapu Lele, Zygarde / 95 / Neutral / 252 / 0
287 / Gyarados, Gyarados (Mega) / 81 / +Spe / 252 / 0
284 / Chandelure, Dragonite, Hoopa-Unbound, Mamoswine, Togekiss / 80 / +Spe / 252 / 0
283 / Garchomp (Mega) / 92 / Neutral / 252 / 0
282 / Buzzwole / 79 / +Spe / 252 / 0
281 / Landorus-Therian / 91 / Neutral / 252 / 0
279 / Porygon-Z / 90 / Neutral / 252 / 0
278 / Heatran / 77 / +Spe / 252 / 0
276 / Landorus-Therian / 91 / Neutral / 232 / 0
275 / Excadrill / 88 / Neutral / 252 / 0
274 / Mew / 100 / Neutral / 152 / 0
273 / Heracross (Mega), Scizor (Mega), Smeargle, Tapu Bulu / 75 / +Spe / 252 / 0
269 / Kingdra, Tapu Fini / 85 / Neutral / 252 / 0
266 / Garchomp / 102 / Neutral / 104 / 0
266 / Jirachi, Manaphy, Mew / 100 / Neutral / 120 / 0
266 / Gliscor / 95 / Neutral / 160 / 0
266 / Landorus-Therian / 91 / +Spe / 92 / 0
266 / Togekiss / 80 / +Spe / 184 / 0
265 / Tyranitar (Mega) / 71 / +Spe / 252 / 0

Tier 5 (Max Speed+ Base 70 to Max Speed neutral Base 70)

262 / Bisharp, Breloom, Skarmory, Swampert (Mega), Volcanion / 70 / +Spe / 252 / 0
261 / Gyarados, Gyarados (Mega) / 81 / Neutral / 252 / 0
259 / Chandelure, Dragonite, Hoopa-Unbound, Mamoswine, Togekiss / 80 / Neutral / 252 / 0
257 / Buzzwole / 79 / Neutral / 252 / 0
253 / Heatran / 77 / Neutral / 252 / 0
251 / Magearna / 65 / +Spe / 252 / 0
249 / Heracross (Mega), Scizor (Mega), Tapu Bulu / 75 / Neutral / 252 / 0
244 / Manaphy, Mew, Zapdos / 100 / Neutral / 32 / 0
244 / Gliscor / 95 / Neutral / 72 / 0
244 / Dragonite, Venusaur (Mega) / 80 / Neutral / 192 / 0
243 / Celesteela, Tyranitar / 61 / +Spe / 252 / 0
240 / Garchomp / 102 / Neutral / 0 / 0
240 / Magnezone / 60 / +Spe / 252 / 0
239 / Bisharp, Breloom, Swampert (Mega), Volcanion / 70 / Neutral / 252 / 0


236 / Jirachi, Manaphy, Mew, Zapdos / 100 / Neutral / 0 / 0
229 / Magearna / 65 / Neutral / 252 / 0
229 / Crawdaunt, Omastar / 55 / +Spe / 252 / 0
222 / Scizor (Mega), Tapu Bulu / 75 / Neutral / 144 / 0
222 / Landorus-Therian / 91 / Neutral / 16 / 0
222 / Rotom-Wash / 86 / Neutral / 56 / 0
222 / Venusaur (Mega) / 80 / Neutral / 108 / 0
221 / Celesteela, Tyranitar / 61 / Neutral / 252 / 0
219 / Empoleon, Magnezone, Primarina / 60 / Neutral / 252 / 0
218 / Azumarill / 50 / +Spe / 252 / 0
218 / Victini / 100 / +Spe / 252 / -1
209 / Venusaur (Mega) / 80 / Neutral / 52 / 0
209 / Crawdaunt, Omastar / 55 / Neutral / 252 / 0

Tier 7 (0 Speed Base 86 to Max Speed Neutral Base 45)

208 / Rotom-Wash / 86 / Neutral / 0 / 0
207 / Marowak (Alola) / 45 / +Spe / 252 / 0
206 / Cresselia, Suicune, Tapu Fini / 85 / Neutral / 0 / 0
203 / Necrozma / 79 / Neutral / 36 / 0
201 / Celesteela / 61 / Neutral / 172 / 0
200 / Venusaur (Mega) / 80 / Neutral / 16 / 0
200 / Tyranitar / 61 / Neutral / 208 / 0
199 / Azumarill / 50 / Neutral / 252 / 0
199 / Mawile (Mega) / 50 / Neutral / 252 / 0
199 / Victini / 100 / Neutral / 252 / -1
196 / Hoopa-Unbound, Togekiss, Venusaur (Mega) / 80 / Neutral / 0 / 0
194 / Buzzwole / 79 / Neutral / 0 / 0
190 / Heatran / 77 / Neutral / 0 / 0
189 / Marowak (Alola) / 45 / Neutral / 252 / 0

186 / Scizor (Mega), Tapu Bulu / 75 / Neutral / 0 / 0
185 / Cresselia / 85 / -Spe / 0 / 0
178 / Magnezone / 60 / Neutral / 88 / 0
177 / Tyranitar / 61 / Neutral / 76 / 0
177 / Azumarill, Mawile (Mega) / 50 / Neutral / 164 / 0
176 / Mantine, Skarmory / 70 / Neutral / 0 / 0
175 / Uxie / 95 / -Spe / 0 / 0 / 0 IV
167 / Conkeldurr / 45 / Neutral / 164 / 0
166 / Alomomola, Magearna, Pelipper, Scizor / 65 / Neutral / 0 / 0
158 / Celesteela, Tyranitar / 61 / Neutral / 0 / 0
157 / Cresselia / 85 / -Spe / 0 / 0 / 0 IV
156 / Clefable, Empoleon / 60 / Neutral / 0 / 0

Tier 9 (0 Speed Base -Spe Base 61 to everything slower)

142 / Tyranitar / 61 / -Spe / 0 / 0
136 / Azumarill, Chansey, Mawile (Mega), Muk-Alolan / 50 / Neutral / 0 / 0
130 / Hippowdon / 47 / Neutral / 0 / 0
126 / Marowak (Alola) / 45 / Neutral / 0 / 0
122 / Tangrowth / 50 / -Spe / 0 / 0
114 / Gastrodon / 39 / Neutral / 0 / 0
107 / Reuniclus / 30 / Neutral / 44 / 0
107 / Camerupt (Mega) / 20 / Neutral / 124 / 0
106 / Toxapex / 35 / Neutral / 0 / 0
102 / Gastrodon / 39 / -Spe / 0 / 0
96 / Amoonguss, Cofagrigus, Slowbro, Slowbro (Mega) / 30 / Neutral / 0 / 0
95 / Quagsire / 35 / -Spe / 0 / 0
80 / Araquanid / 42 / -Spe / 0 / 0 / 0 IV
76 / Ferrothorn, Sableye (Mega) / 20 / Neutral / 0 / 0
58 / Amoonguss, Cofagrigus, Reuniclus, Slowbro, Slowbro (Mega) / 30 / -Spe / 0 / 0 / 0 IV
40 / Camerupt (Mega), Ferrothorn / 20 / -Spe / 0 / 0 / 0 IV
13 / Shuckle / 5 / -Spe / 0 / 0 / 0 IV
these are identifiable much more easily. you know what the mon is and what kind of evs/boosts it has. you can ctrl+f a mon to see where it is without needing to open hide tags. the mons are split into tiers to prevent it from just being a giant wall of text

another thing: why are the mons with banned abilities in vr shown with the ability in strikethrough instead of it just being removed? it just looks ugly and i think that if you want to show players which mons were viable with stakeout before it was banned, you could just edit the changelog to say "stakeout removed from pdon, mmx, mscept, chomp, reshiram, palkia due to ban". if pdon gets banned i don't want to see it still in the vr but crossed out man

that's all ig
 
sorry for double post but i made some nominations in this one so hopefully that will spark some discussion

here's a more comprehensive checks and counters compendium based on the ou one

first off checks and counters are divided into three categories: gsi (guaranteed switch in), ssi (situational switch in) and nsi (non switch in)

Guaranteed Switch-In
Can switch into the following moves:
  • Anything that's included (at least as a slash) on the threat's analysis page, in its main set.
  • Anything that's common enough to show up on the Threat's 1825 moveset statistics entry.
It may only be able to switch in one or two times, or may lose to some exotic coverage move (the ones not listed in the above).
The check is not subject to these limitations and can run whatever it likes. For example, low kick Bisharp is a GSI to Bisharp, since low kick isn't common enough to prevent Bisharp from switching in.

Situational Switch-In
Can switch in safely under certain circumstances, but not always. Can either switch into some variants of a threat but struggle against others, or struggles with common coverage moves but can at least switch into the STABs and other moves commonly used on switches (such as boosting moves and Knock Off).

Non-Switch-In
Basically: Just a check, not a counter. Cannot switch in safely, generally because they are beaten by one of the STABs, lose if they switch in on a boosting move, etc. Pokemon in this category can, however, defeat a threat in a 1-on-1 matchup. This includes faster revenge killers, as well as Pokemon that can take a single hit and KO back.

so this is a pretty huge task because i have to manually put the images in, scan through the vr, and do some calcs occasionally, because of this only 4 sets are done but i will try to update it in the future. if anyone wants to help it would be much appreciated
(fc)
GSI:
*
SSI: everything else

(aoa surge)
GSI:
(av)
SSI:
(av)

NSI:
(scarf)
(av)
(ff)
(sash smash)
(sash smash)
(shell smash)

(4 attacks sheer force)
GSI:
(ff)
(ff)
(av)
(+atk fakespeed lo)
SSI:
(scarf)
(av)
(ff, levitate)
(ff, levitate)
(av)
(sand stream)
(+atk fakespeed lo, +atk fakespeed sharp beak)
(spore)
(ff)
(ff)
(moongeist)

NSI:
(galvanize)
(refrigerate)
(specs refrigerate)
(sash smash)
(contrary, shell smash, refrigerate)
(cb steelworker)
(sash)
(contrary)
(pixilate)
(ph)

(shell smash)
GSI:
(prankster)
(prankster)
(unaware, fc)
(unaware, av)

SSI:

NSI:
(spore)

*chansey often carries final gambit (especially on imposter sets) which means that switching in a valuable mon can be dangerous

next up as always i got some nominations for the vr.

note: no replays because all i see on this awful ladder are these idiotic mmy teams and scrubs who risk their imposter proofer. if you want replays then put in a species clause or something. 6 mewtwo isn't broken but if you've played against it you know it just shouldn't exist

mega beedrill, mega lucario and palkia unranked->ranked (no higher than c)

let me start out with mega beedrill. it's pretty much the equivalent of pheromosa (which is in c), except it threatens out fairies instead of steels; however, v create is a serviceable equivalent to fighting stab. beedrill finds itself somewhat walled by physical walls (esp. fc giratina) because it can't go mixed unlike pheromosa, but it has other ways of getting around them, like poisoning them with its poison stab to wear them down or tricking them cb. mega gengar + mega beedrill is also a really effective core

mega lucario is like kartana, except a bit weaker. however, as you may know kartana suffers from the dilemma of power or coverage when it's forced to pick between the "i get walled by fire and water types" v create or the "i fail to remotely threaten imposter" precipice blades. mega lucario has no such problem with its access to stab close combat, giving it power and coverage in one slot. literally all you need are two stab moves and maybe ghost coverage if you hate aegi/slowbro, and you're good. because of this i think it deserves to be ranked

why did palkia get unranked in the first place? even without stakeout it's just disgusting to play against, like only three mons on the vr resist its stab combination (none of them above b) and one of them is kartana. compare this with zekrom, which is in b: the only thing that walls palkia but not zekrom is tapu fini, and zekrom has a much lower damage output with judgment causing it to miss out on targets such as regen vest giratina at +2. unlike other offensive waters palkia doesn't care at all about most water resists, like av kyogre absolutely hates core enforcer and dragons just get nuked. primordial sea core enforcer/origin pulse is the best set imo but it can do other ridiculous stuff too like setup + draco plate. give this thing a rank please thank you
 
here's a more comprehensive checks and counters compendium...
I recommend adding Mega Gengar to Chansey's GSIs because it's still immune to Final Gambit. Also 252 SpA Mewtwo-Mega-Y Psystrike vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Eviolite Chansey in Psychic Terrain: 481-567 (68.3 - 80.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO, so FC Chansey should IMO be demoted to SSI for the AoA set

Also, if more sets are added (which, I'll try to make some) this might get big, in which case maybe it would be better if it was put in its own thread?
 
Last edited:
(tinted lens wallbreaker)
GSI:
(av)
SSI:
(av)*
(unaware)
(unaware)
(unaware)

NSI:
(fc)
(band, scarf)
(normalize)
(cb)

* must run Spectral Thief
‡ must run Substitute

Note that only Specs Sheer Force MMY is guaranteed to OHKO Dialga, but vs some variants 2HKOing is good enough to revenge kill. Similarly, Scarf Pdon only has a ~58% chance of killing with Precipice Blades, but doesn't care about CE, random coverage or Nuzzle very much. Heatran could be used as a GSI but it's ill-advised unless used as an improof because it's subpar at everything else and taking up a valuable team slot.

Chansey and unaware users are not listed as GSIs because of being set up on and Core Enforcer'd respectively.
 
Last edited:
regarding Dialga:
The Fur Coat set (modest, Core Enforcer, Doom Desire, Recover, Tail Glow) may be added, but I don't know if it is relevant as I seem to be its only user, altough I have great success with it.
You should add fairies to the switchin list, as they're the best Dialga counters if they're running substitute. Apart from that, you should mention that the list of switchins depends heavily on wether Dialga has already used Tail Glow, has Core Enforcer and the state of Doom Desire (will it hit at the turn of question or not).
 
regarding Dialga:
The Fur Coat set (modest, Core Enforcer, Doom Desire, Recover, Tail Glow) may be added, but I don't know if it is relevant as I seem to be its only user, altough I have great success with it.
You should add fairies to the switchin list, as they're the best Dialga counters if they're running substitute. Apart from that, you should mention that the list of switchins depends heavily on wether Dialga has already used Tail Glow, has Core Enforcer and the state of Doom Desire (will it hit at the turn of question or not).
i agree with adding it, but not with adding the fairies. ive seen people (names elude me, maybe Kit Kasai ??) using that set with steelium z specifically for audino switchins, and i'd say fc is its best bet for reliable damage post-stakeout ban.
 
There are arguments for both steelium and Adamant Orb. So you could add fairies while noting the possibility of Steelium Z.
Xern also outspeeds Dialga and can use Sub before it fires its Z-Attack.
 

Kit Kasai

Love colored magic
I'm definitely not the first person to come up with it, but I think steelium is pretty much standard on Tinted Dialga to hit fairies (also hits really hard anyways).

Tinted Dialga is built to be a wallbreaker, so it's difficult to have guaranteed counters to it. Best way to deal with it is offensive pressure.
 
Anyone knows about Regigigas?Is tough claw E-speed+SwordsDance viable? Is the pokemon viable in this meta?
regigigas's big niche is a bulky poison heal setup sweeper with shift gear, because of its raw stats and its immunity to spectral thief, as well as being able to use spore/lovely kiss to cripple opposing walls and (because you would be poisoned and not them) soft imposter-proof. its a huge pain to deal with if your team doesnt have a defined physical wall that isnt weak to common coverage like knock off (to hit ghosts, mostly) and avalanche (to "underspeed" core enforcer so you dont get poison heal removed, because that forces you out)
 
Anyone knows about Regigigas?Is tough claw E-speed+SwordsDance viable? Is the pokemon viable in this meta?
Kind of an odd question since the viability ranking puts him nicely in the A tier with some listed sets but yes, Regigigas is viable. Regigigas typically runs poison heal with facade and shift gear and two other moves, usually spore and knock off or avalanche. He also has the aforementioned traits of being immune to spectral thief and generally not having to worry about status.
 
I am going to nominate Red Orb Groudon to B-
Red Orb Groudon, while lacking the item, is still really threatening with its DesoLand boosted V-Creates. It can also have a pre-Primal-Reversion Ability such as Surges, Download, Intimidate, etc. With PDon banned many of its checks will see less play and opt for a different set, helping it break. B- is because this thing should be better than the crap in C
 
IronedSandwich thanks for your contributions, concerning the gsi/ssi/nsi lists i personally kind of want to gauge how much other people want it/how helpful it would be before continuing with it. for those wondering, in ou these lists are used for the make my team and break my team apps which can help in teambuilding.

more noms, these are more controversial. discussion pls

mega ray to a+
steels are all over the place right now and this prevents mega ray from spamming boomburst. fc chansey has also gotten better and that hard stops it too. i think that triage is just an overrated set in general because of how hard it is to imposter proof and how little work it seems to put in.

mega gengar to a
normalize gengar is a really good late game sweeper but it has so many answers on every team. revelation dance ogre is common because ogre itself really appreciates pdon gone. other sets like adapt and dazzling are kinda cool but they really struggle power wise, and having to choose between hitting shed and beating imposter without a tie can suck. (shed isn't that common but unless you're running balance instead of offense, gengar is likely your only ghost and this can be the difference between getting momentum on shed and flat out losing to it)

mega audino to a+
mega audino is amazing. stall rules the ladder right now and audino is both a good asset to stall and a mon that has an extremely good matchup against it. this is because of its typing, which makes it practically impossible to wear down unlike say registeel. magic bounce variants are pretty much impossible for stall to pressure, while poison heal almost never needs to recover. audino is also a staple on balance for good reason, like if you got your choiced breaker and you click the wrong move and hit the wrong wall then you can just click audino and it's all good man. it's one of the best mons right now so i think it should rise.

mega sceptile to b+
i feel that sceptile should rise on the basis of its contrary set. resists to grass/dragon/fire are absolutely nonexistent right now and even if you see ff registeel or something you can just shrug and click draco again and say "what are you gonna do about it". the only prankster move it cares about is destiny bond (and the uncommon topsy/glare) but you can use that crazy flexible 4th slot to run stuff like taunt or encore (spore is less necessary bc less offense). haven't tried scept + wish but i don't see why it wouldn't be incredible.

xurkitree to somewhere else
there have been tons of metagame shifts that have affected xurk. some are positive, while others are negative. i'm not sure how viable it is in a vacuum though. here's the evidence so you can decide for yourself:

stall is more prominent. xurk likes this very much
giratina is more prominent as well. this is bad
no pdon so more boomburst. this opens the door to electric terrain support which makes xurk pretty much unwallable
sometimes stall has chansey. it avoids boomburst 2hko
mons have more freedom to run soundproof

mega garchomp to b
mold breaker garchomp will save us all, with its powerful stab combination and ez stealth rocks. the stallbreaker we need, if not the one we deserve. checking red orb pdon is nice too

deoxys-s to d
hazard lead offense sucks. this is a fact. deoxys is an insanely one dimensional pokemon with no variance at all except the hazard of choice and weird tech moves that usually don't work. imposter-proofing it (like giving it spore but not knock off) makes it almost unable to accomplish anything whatsoever. it's also matchup reliant vs stall, like if they have rapid spin you lose, if they have defog and you don't have taunt you lose, etc. if i was using offense, i'd choose a mold breaker hazard setter with more flexibility so i might be able to actually have a good stall matchup.

is water absorb diancie a thing? how about contrary xern?

arceus to b
i tried out arceus and it honestly struggles to carve out much of a niche. it's simply not bulky enough. it gets 2hkod by most relevant things (breakers, stored/power trip sweepers), and sweeper sets have really bad 4mss even though they make great normalize gengar counters. fur coat and soundproof sets are pretty cool on paper but i have no experience with them.
 
I would also like to nominate Mimikyu to D(C-?)
With Disguise it becomes the best emergency button against set-up sweepers since the only moves used that beat it would be Bonemerang and Icicle Spear, both of which are rare (Pin Missile and Water Shuriken are like non-existent). Disguise is better than Sash/Sturdy b/c it isn't broken with residual damage and will leave the user with a health that is more difficult to revenge kill. Just make sure Disguise isn't broken with U-Turns and stuff like that
 
more noms, these are more controversial. discussion pls
mega ray to a+
steels are all over the place right now and this prevents mega ray from spamming boomburst. fc chansey has also gotten better and that hard stops it too. i think that triage is just an overrated set in general because of how hard it is to imposter proof and how little work it seems to put in.


· FakeSpeed Aerilate
· Specs Aerilate
· Band Tough Claws / Stakeout
· Contrary
· Tail Glow Triage
· Flame Orb Quick Feet
· Shell Smash APS

This is the list of sets that are mentioned in the VR post, and all of them are viable and must-prepare-for sets. This forces most players to scout its movesets using Imposter due to the sheer unpredictability that comes from stellar offensive stats of 180 and speed of 115 which outspeeds most of the unboosted metagame. Also, Dragon and Flying-typing is only resisted by Steel-types, and the likes of Registeel and others must be wary of stuff like V-Create, Blue Flare, Close Combat, Earth Power, or Precipice Blades which most Mega Rayquaza runs except when they rely on Magnet Pull users. Also it is very hard to OHKO Mega Rayquaza without aiming its weakness of Ice and Fairy (I don’t think Rock-type weakness is relevant except for stuff like Tyranitar) due to 105/100/100 bulk that is advanced further after EV limit removal. Mega Rayquaza, unless the significant metagame change occurs, will always stay in S rank.
tldr; This guy might suck nowadays but the thing is, Mega Rayquaza has been a dominant force and it is not as good right now because the metagame has progressed much enough for average players to make preparations. Also if we apply the logic to MMY, we can say "MMY sukc because it can't hit Solgaleo and Yveltal with stuff like Blue Flare or Fleur Cannon". As I repeatedly say in Discord, I think Mega Rayquaza just suffers in the metagame. It still destroys any unprepared teams.

mega gengar to a
normalize gengar is a really good late game sweeper but it has so many answers on every team. revelation dance ogre is common because ogre itself really appreciates pdon gone. other sets like adapt and dazzling are kinda cool but they really struggle power wise, and having to choose between hitting shed and beating imposter without a tie can suck. (shed isn't that common but unless you're running balance instead of offense, gengar is likely your only ghost and this can be the difference between getting momentum on shed and flat out losing to it)
Again, Gengar is another top tier threat that one must prepare for. If not, no Pokemon in the team will be able to touch it. It is that simple. It is the one and only self-imposterproof sweeper that needs 0 team support to function (outsides getting rid of its checks prior to setting up) and this is probably the same reason why I disagree with most of your nominations that talk about "the metagame is prepared against it so it is bad". My philosophy might be wrong but at least in my book, VR is based on how much a Pokemon is prevalent / poses threat to the rest of the metagame / forces preparation.

mega audino to a+
mega audino is amazing. stall rules the ladder right now and audino is both a good asset to stall and a mon that has an extremely good matchup against it. this is because of its typing, which makes it practically impossible to wear down unlike say registeel. magic bounce variants are pretty much impossible for stall to pressure, while poison heal almost never needs to recover. audino is also a staple on balance for good reason, like if you got your choiced breaker and you click the wrong move and hit the wrong wall then you can just click audino and it's all good man. it's one of the best mons right now so i think it should rise.
Have been waiting for someone to say this for months.

mega sceptile to b+
i feel that sceptile should rise on the basis of its contrary set. resists to grass/dragon/fire are absolutely nonexistent right now and even if you see ff registeel or something you can just shrug and click draco again and say "what are you gonna do about it". the only prankster move it cares about is destiny bond (and the uncommon topsy/glare) but you can use that crazy flexible 4th slot to run stuff like taunt or encore (spore is less necessary bc less offense). haven't tried scept + wish but i don't see why it wouldn't be incredible.
Hazard control is necessary to keep this guy "imposterproofed" and that means Sceptile will have 0 opportunity to switch in, even against stuff like U-turn from Registeel. Also I see many scarf imposter which can just come in and OHKO Sceptile once Focus Sash is broken. Even if Imposter is Eviolite, the Speed tie will be incredibly risky and if you lose one, you are now against your own pokemon which is progressively harder to stop because you let that Chansey copy Contrary Sceptile.

xurkitree to somewhere else
there have been tons of metagame shifts that have affected xurk. some are positive, while others are negative. i'm not sure how viable it is in a vacuum though. here's the evidence so you can decide for yourself:

stall is more prominent. xurk likes this very much
giratina is more prominent as well. this is bad
no pdon so more boomburst. this opens the door to electric terrain support which makes xurk pretty much unwallable
sometimes stall has chansey. it avoids boomburst 2hko
mons have more freedom to run soundproof
I can't make the best judgment because I don't use Xurkitree (more like I can't). Probably it is the most unique stallbreaker that BH has to offer at this moment so I will let others discuss about this.

mega garchomp to b
mold breaker garchomp will save us all, with its powerful stab combination and ez stealth rocks. the stallbreaker we need, if not the one we deserve. checking red orb pdon is nice too
No, Mega Garchomp isn't good. I tried it more than couple times, and here is why.

Listen. Mega Garchomp with Mold Breaker can threaten the entire metagame and 2HKO them all. That is great. But think outsides the box. Does it OHKO anything other than the Steel-types it obviously forces out? No. Dragon Hammer + Choice Band doesn't OHKO Giratina and Zygarde-C and they can just hit back with Core Enforcer. As a wallbreaker, Mega Garchomp is nowhere close to being efficient as Primal Groudon. It is weak to -ates, it is weak to Core Enforcer, and it is much harder to imposterproof. The opportunity risk for running Mega Garchomp isn't really worth. It is very prediction-reliant and what it does in return, especially against offensive teams, is very disappointing.

deoxys-s to d
hazard lead offense sucks. this is a fact. deoxys is an insanely one dimensional pokemon with no variance at all except the hazard of choice and weird tech moves that usually don't work. imposter-proofing it (like giving it spore but not knock off) makes it almost unable to accomplish anything whatsoever. it's also matchup reliant vs stall, like if they have rapid spin you lose, if they have defog and you don't have taunt you lose, etc. if i was using offense, i'd choose a mold breaker hazard setter with more flexibility so i might be able to actually have a good stall matchup.
Why is this ranked

arceus to b
i tried out arceus and it honestly struggles to carve out much of a niche. it's simply not bulky enough. it gets 2hkod by most relevant things (breakers, stored/power trip sweepers), and sweeper sets have really bad 4mss even though they make great normalize gengar counters. fur coat and soundproof sets are pretty cool on paper but i have no experience with them.
Sigh when will be the day jrm and SW will be enlightened by Arceus-Poison
Nothing much different from last gen, this guy is master of none. As a wall, it can't pivot at all due to 120 Speed outspeeding like everything in unnecessary way, andoffensive sets are outclassed by obvious stuff.
I tried Multitype, it is mostly a shit.

----​

I would also like to nominate Mimikyu to D(C-?)
With Disguise it becomes the best emergency button against set-up sweepers since the only moves used that beat it would be Bonemerang and Icicle Spear, both of which are rare (Pin Missile and Water Shuriken are like non-existent). Disguise is better than Sash/Sturdy b/c it isn't broken with residual damage and will leave the user with a health that is more difficult to revenge kill. Just make sure Disguise isn't broken with U-Turns and stuff like that
Sunsteel Strike and Moongeist Beam exists and they are norm to almost every single setup sweepers. Also Mimikyu is just useless outsides revenging the low-quality setup sweepers that lack sungeist becaues it doesn't even make KO's against metagame-defining threats:

252+ Atk Mimikyu Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Rayquaza-Mega: 200-236 (48.3 - 57%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO

252+ Atk Mimikyu Spectral Thief vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Mewtwo-Mega-Y: 248-294 (59.6 - 70.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Mimikyu Spectral Thief vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Gengar-Mega: 230-272 (70.9 - 83.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

... I'm glad you didn't nominate Arceus-Fire for rank but we don't really rank Pokemon that isn't consistent or is terrible against the general meta for the most part.
 

As predictable as its usual sets are, Deo-S is the fastest support Pokemon in the game and one of the best at it. It's also the fastest Prankster in the game too, giving it a niche in checking/countering other Pranksters (add Lagging Tail + Trick to that set to piss off your choice of sweeper on the opposing team). There's quite a bit you can do with it, really, besides using it as a hazard lead.

Really, most people just don't use Deo-S right. It's way more annoying to deal with if you use it as something besides a suicide hazard lead, even if you only stick to Mold Breaker. I think it's fine in C somewhere.


The other stuff, no real opinion. Well... Mimikyu's only real niche in BH is Disguise, but aside from "Double Focus Sash" being neat, it's not a particularly viable niche, IMO. Not enough for a D-Rank at least.