BH Balanced Hackmons Central Resources

hi

with the ban of magnet pull/gengarite some stuff should be removed

S: magnet pull pdon
A+: nothing
A: gengarite gengar, magnet pull audino
A-: magnet pull xern
B+: nothing
B: nothing
B-: nothing
C: magnet pull magearna
D: nothing

got some nominations too

giratina to a

man you slap this guy on your team cause you want to counter pdon but in the current meta giratina just isn't a pdon switchin. fc sets are less useful due to the decline in tinted lens pdon usage (which giratina is supposedly good at walling), pixilate and stakeout variants of pdon are extremely common and those just pick apart giratina. because of this i feel that it is much less useful compared to zyg/fc ogre

regigigas to a+

regigigas is stupid rn. it requires an insanely low amount of team support to function and it's dumb to prepare for. if you don't have poison heal or something then you're probably gonna lose to it at some point. also can i point out that regi can just spore a switchin then hard switch to a breaker?

solgaleo to a+

solgaleo is a really cool mon. the ban of magnet pull increased its viability a bunch. it provides amazing utility for a team being able to switch in on top threats like mmy (which usually runs psychic surge nowadays) and mega ray. it also pairs fantastically with imposter, like you just need a spore/mega gengar/earth plate pdon answer and you're pretty much good to go.

kyurem-b to b+

this thing seems so out of place here. it never breaks any opposing defensive team by itself because of its stealth rock weakness. refrigerate sets offer free switchins for imposter and have the weakest boomburst of any ate user. anti priority just comes in and laughs at it. never even seen technician or dazzling like do you rely on frost breath to deal damage man?? sounds like a worse mmx to me.

shedinja to a-

shed is a very good pick rn because of its capability to switch in on a bunch of threatening stuff. many stakeout users have no room to run stuff to hit it, ate pdon sets get walled, sheer force mmy is less common lately but you beat that too. it needs team support sure but it's honestly worth the cost

kangaskhanite to b+

this thing got much better after the gengarite ban because now it's the best "break defensive teams with a dumb banned ability" mon. ngl i haven't seen this for whatever reason but i don't see why it wouldn't be completely deserving of b+, like teams get 6-0'd by it, it's nasty

ferrothorn to b

ferro should rise imo. it beats a ton of stuff for the team like ph users, ff sets switch in on most pdon (ground stab is less common lately from my experience), unaware walls triage ray and checks aps/drum (sunsteel resistance is fun). ferro+soundproof is an awesome combination.

mega heracross to d

mega heracross is kinda interesting tbh, tons of attack and a cool stab combo. but if it's ranked solely on the basis of its triage set then i don't see why it should stay c. it literally loses to all four of the mons in s except for non psychic surge mmy. it completely fails to break any defensive teams whatsoever. it loses to every ate user 1v1 except kyub. the only thing i could see it being useful for is checking ph regi, which is cool and all except drain punch doesn't ko from full and they just switch out.

why is mega latias ranked at all if the only sets are offensive ones? doesn't latios do that better?

what does normalize marshadow do? ghost memory multi attack??? why would i ever use this

pheromosa to c

you might see this as the mon that "beats mmy/steels/gyara/ttar (wait hold on pheromosa + mmy that's the new offensive core) and does nothing else" but you're looking at it the wrong way. mmy is nuts right now, it's on like 40% of teams and steel types are practically mandatory to check it. so what does pheromosa do with this free turn that it gets every so often? whatever it wants. it can run stakeout, or set up, or get momentum, or even stack hazards. like it doesn't offer any defensive utility but you're not exactly switching pdon into mega ray either

thanks for reading :o
 
Yah I kinda agree with most of what he said.

I've been switching back to Zyg-C over Giratina on my teams because I think Zygarde's bulk and typing make it better currently for a few main reasons.

- Superior bulk means I can more easily go with a specially defensive nature without making my matchup against physical threats any worse.
- Can live a specs surge psycho boost from mmy: 252 SpA Choice Specs Mewtwo-Mega-Y Psycho Boost vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde-Complete in Psychic Terrain: 519-612 (81.6 - 96.2%)
- Immunity to volt switch will prevent your opponent from mindlessly clicking it which makes him a really good partner for mons like yveltal or gyarados that can otherwise get easily worn down.
- Resist stealth rocks making it slightly better as a defogger, Giratina can get worn down by trying to go in while the opponent doubles, Zyg doesn't care as much.
- Ground stab is pretty damn good, giving him access to both arrows and waves, I've been usually running volt switch + thousand waves which makes it imposterproof while still keeping a pivoting move, also allows him to trap mons like groudon who might have wanted to get a bit more chip or MMY who underestimated the damage of non specs psycho boost in terrain (because zygarde can easily eat 2). Ground stab + Groundium also serves as a pretty decent normalize gengar check (as an added bonus, I've had the extra damage from z waves come in clutch to win me a game more than a few times)

Only thing is that it doesn't really deal with Regigigas but on any team that does I think running Zyg over Gira is definitely worth.


Regarding Shedinja, Stakeout is the main draw imo but there's another few things I've found it to be good against.

- Standard Regigigas is hard walled and Shed has a few different option that it can kill it with including the common endeavor + espeed.
- A few PH xern variant that can be really annoying to deal with, are also walled, like moonblast / earth power sets that run either taunt or lovely kiss.
- Standard specs surge mmy is Psystrike / Psycho Boost / Volt Switch / Coverage, and that coverage is not necessarily moongeist beam so if it's running Specs Blue Flare to surprise your registeel or Fleur Canon / Secret Sword for Ttar, all is not lost.
- Band Groudon doesn't usually run Sunsteel, instead often opting for a combination of dual stab, pivot, bolt strike, Ice Hammer and Trick.
- Contrary Sweepers Contrary Dragons with moongeist or sunsteel are pretty rare, Sceptile usually runs Leaf Storm / Draco Meteor / Overheat / Spore making it a huge pain to deal with when using standard walls, Rayquaza usually opts for support moves like sub, spore or recovery, Groudon has that weird imposterproof set with v-create / fleur / judgement / bolt strike or superpower, mmy is the one that most often runs moongeist beam but it's also seen without instead opting for one of his many coverage option like a Psycho Boost / Fleur Canon / Overheat / Spore set.
- And yeah, plate ss mons not named gengar can never beat it.


Edit: For the record, and since it implied the opposite, I don't think Giratina should drop a rank, but there was a significant amount of ppl that believed Giratina to be all around better than zyg which I don't think is the case. In a way Zygarde is more team specific but would outperform giratina in said teams.
 
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No opinion on a number of those, but I disagree with the suggestion on Giratina. Why? Well...

-Fur Coat is less popular due to Stakeout? Whaaaaat? If Giratina is full health, Adamant Stakeout Choice Band Groudon cannot 2HKO Giratina with either V-Create or Precipice Blades. Giratina can simply switch in and shrug off the damage with a recovery move, especially with a little speed investment against a V-Create. Ice Hammer doesn't even reliably 2HKO.

-Sets with Knock Off beat Gengar sets relying on Spooky Judgement as long as Giratina doesn't switch into the attack or Gengar doesn't get set-up. Lemme emphasis: Giratina can check its counter for the whole match with one button press.

-No 4x weakness, which makes Giratina harder to lure and nuke, unlike Zygarde. To bring up Adamant Stakeout Band Groudon again, Ice Hammer OHKOes 50% of the time on the switch with a +Def nature. Giratina actually is a safer check vs Stakeout Primaldon. Let's not even talk about all the stray Ice Beams flitting about the meta with Ziggy's name on it. Giratina doesn't like these Ice-moves either, but it survives lure sets that KO Zygarde.

-Speaking of Pixilate, Refrigerate lures maul Zygarde far worse.

-Immunity to Volt Switch is nice, but its not uncommon for Volt Switches to be a lure for Zygarde and Primal Groudon.

-But, back to Giratina fully, it also hard-walls physical Contrary sets (Draco Meteor/Fleur Cannon means mixed or special.) These can potentially muscle through Zygarde with some boosts.

-PH sets beat PH standard Gigas, at least in my experience, who otherwise is a big threat right now. Most Giratina can also potentially deal with Belly Drum Extreme Speed bullcrap even without being Unaware or Fur Coat.

-On more minor notes, there's the utility of stuff like Curse sets, Giratina's inability to be trapped with Anchor Shot and friends, resistance to U-Turn, resistance to Primal Ogre and other random Water-coverage meant for Groudon, stronger Core Enforcer, STAB Spectral Thief, spin blocking, and probably a few others I'm missing.

So yeah, Zygarde and Giratina share some common weaknesses and can be utilized for some similar things, but they do have a number of distinct high level niches from each other that I don't think one replaces the other anywhere near enough to cause a drop either way.
 
A few questionable points here.

The main point of Stakeout and Contrary is to go mixed, arguing that Giratina can wall either non mixed, while true, is about as relevant as saying that Zygarde can wall no stab Kyurem.

Knock off seems like a really niche scenario to bring up considering that Normalize Gengar is almost the only Gengar set in the usage stats rn.

"Most Giratina can also potentially deal with Belly Drum Extreme Speed bullcrap even without being Unaware or Fur Coat." Yeah that's just untrue, +6 Regigigas can't OHKO Zygarde while the necessary ghost or dark coverage (more often than not, spectral thief) ohkos Giratina.

That point about volt switch seems like a complete assumption really, most common users of volt switch would be mmy and -ate user neither of which are really a zygarde lure and I'm not aware of anything that is. The point still remains that an immunity to a pivot move is good to have on a team regardless of wether or not you actually send the mon in.

Trapping is far less relevant now that gengar is banned and zyg can very easily pivot out of it unless it's running a set meant to be trapped.

I agree with your conclusion tho.
 
One of the main reasons why I nominated Giratina to S rank and Zygarde-C down to A rank was Zygarde-C's vulnerability to Gengarite trapping, x 4 weakness to Ice, and lack of functionality as a spinblocker. However, the metagame has changed and as couple other people have mentioned, I would like to nominate Zygarde-C to S rank while demoting Giratina to A+ in order to make Flint happy.

* Gengarite Trapping
Gengarite is now gone, and Fur Coat Zygarde-C can now relax and feel free to press Shore Up.

* x 4 weakness to Ice
There is a god gory damn reason I watch OMPL despite I am not the participant. I was observing what was going on in OMPL, and even outsides such event, Primal Groudon doesn't even run Ice Hammer anymore because Stakeout set is becoming increasingly popular with Draco Meteor / Fleur Cannon / Chill Drive Techno Blast. Ice Hammer was the most relevant on Choice Scarf + Magnet Pull set in order to give a surprise motherfucker to Mega Rayquaza and possibly Mega Sceptile. But the move itself is less relevant than before because including me, some users give 40-60 EV to their Fur Coat Giratina / Zygarde-C to outspeed Jolly Primal Groudon at -1 and use recovery before they take another blow. Ice Hammer is not as useful as it used to be, and therefore I would say that doesn't hinder Zygarde-C's prowess as walls. When it comes to Refrigerate vs Pixilate, who would ever not switch their Giratina / Zygarde-C on stuff like Diancie / Kyurem family?

* Spinblocker
Yes, it is nice that Giratina is a Ghost-type and it is immune to Rapid Spin. But the problem is, (don't know if it is just me) Magic Bounce Audino is becoming more prevalent as it checks both Giratina and Zygarde-C quite well and can keep them from setting hazards in the first place. Also, speaking of hazards, as sl42 or motherlove mentioned, resistance to Stealth Rock makes Zygarde-C even more reliable hazard cleaner. It is important to note that Stealth Rock is very important nowadays because stuff like this happens:

+2 252 SpA Groudon-Primal Fleur Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Giratina: 440-518 (87.3 - 102.7%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
+2 252 SpA Groudon-Primal Fleur Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Giratina: 440-518 (87.3 - 102.7%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252 SpA Groudon-Primal Fleur Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Zygarde-Complete: 514-606 (80.8 - 95.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Groudon-Primal Fleur Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Zygarde-Complete: 514-606 (80.8 - 95.2%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

So yeah. Resisting Stealth rock is quite nice for Zygarde-C when it has to take a nuke in emergency and do something back. Conclusively, current meta values Stealth Rock resistance more than Rapid Spin immunity for walls.

I half agree and half disagree. Putting checks to sleep and switching to wallbreakers is the work done by Spore, not by Regigigas. With the same theory, PH Kyogre can just spam Spore on stuff like AV Solg or Gyara and switch to Pdon MMX etc etc.

Magnet Pull is gone and simba just can't wait to be king of the jungle.
Seriously, this guy is more useful as the usage of Specs + Surge became more prevalent.

Yeh it can't break anything without carrying random V-Create and is walled by PH Ogre without Bolt Strike.

Uhh, dude. Not everyone is skilled enough to use Shed with heavy team support. There is protective pads, and I think this kinda mediates the problem with Sungeist assuming they know how to scout with Imposter. If the viability is dependent on one's skill, I wouldn't say it is feasible decision to say something is indefinitely "something" rank. I would nominate higher rank, but I am not too sure if A is an appropriate rank. We can decide as the metagame progresses, however.

Okay so I tried using this Kang guy and it is disgustingly fat after full EV meta. Nature's Madness shreds any walls apart and has literally no switchins barring Sturdy Shedinja which can be bypassed by slightly adjusting movepool.

I thought it was just cool HL meme but it actually does good job walling Regigigas or Pogre without Lovely Kiss. Also it punishes any mmy that doesn't carry Fire-type coverages and can be used to wall it in emergency.

Ded

why is mega latias ranked at all if the only sets are offensive ones? doesn't latios do that better?
Because some people remember good old memories of Fur Coat + Soul Dew Latias. But this is gen 7 and such set is no longer viable.

what does normalize marshadow do? ghost memory multi attack??? why would i ever use this
Normalize Marshadow is a cool meme that is unviable

Full EV kinda rid Phero's ability to aim opponent's weakness and OHKO them appropriate moves, but now that I think about it, as MMY is becoming more and more prevalent, it has a nice niche because if it is against MMY, you can just gain a free pivot or OHKO it outright after some prior damage. This is considerable nomination imo.

Free Innards Out
 
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More for clarifications than anything here.

A few questionable points here.

The main point of Stakeout and Contrary is to go mixed, arguing that Giratina can wall either non mixed, while true, is about as relevant as saying that Zygarde can wall no stab Kyurem.
I dunno, is it the main reason? A lot of the Stakeout stuff being used to argue its brokeness in the suspect topic were using Specs or Band which... don't play well mixed. (You can but, being Band locked to Draco Meteor is bad.) Meanwhile, Contrary tends to mostly be special or physical in my experience, with V-Create thrown onto special sets and some stray stuff like Xtwo running Psycho Boost or whatever occasionally. Either way, I didn't bring up mixed sets because both Pokemon struggle, so its a bad point against either of them or, well, pretty much most walls.


Knock off seems like a really niche scenario to bring up considering that Normalize Gengar is almost the only Gengar set in the usage stats rn.
It's not a common move due to Giratina's massive 4MSS, I'll admit, but its an effective one. As for Normalize Gengar, maybe its just my Giratina sets, but they often only have trouble with them once and, even if Entrained, often leave the Gengar feeling bad. Also, while I don't think its common right now, Magic Bounce Giratina doesn't care. (Actually, MB Koff Giratina seems like a good Gengar lure...) Either way, nail the plate and Giratina hardwalls most Gengar sets, whereas Gengar could potentially Shell Smash through Zygarde and other walls with Normal Judgement.


"Most Giratina can also potentially deal with Belly Drum Extreme Speed bullcrap even without being Unaware or Fur Coat." Yeah that's just untrue, +6 Regigigas can't OHKO Zygarde while the necessary ghost or dark coverage (more often than not, spectral thief) ohkos Giratina.
Its set dependent on both ends, I'll be honest, but there's been times where swapping Giratina into +6 Extreme Speed saved my game. I don't have replays on hand since none of them were worth saving and a number woulda been quite old, but that Extreme Speed immunity has definitely helped.


That point about volt switch seems like a complete assumption really, most common users of volt switch would be mmy and -ate user neither of which are really a zygarde lure and I'm not aware of anything that is. The point still remains that an immunity to a pivot move is good to have on a team regardless of wether or not you actually send the mon in.
Maybe I've had bad luck, but I've been bopped by Ice Beams from Volt Switching Mewtwos way too many damn times. The immunity is nice but, the three best blockers (Zygarde, Garchomp, Groudon) all have 4x weakness that's easily exploited. One move slot and you can kill two of them easily and make the blocking irrelevant. Two if you really wanna nail all three of them. I think any Volt Switcher not using a coverage move for the blockers is missing a big opportunity.




RNGIsFatal While the OMPL users are very good, I personally wouldn't use it for this topic. I mean, high level tournament environment is far different from standard ladder and room tour environment. There, you just have to prep your teams for your opponent, so you'll see some different stuff there and teams that work amazingly in the setting but might struggle with the unpredictability of ladders (I've had a couple of teams be in that situation.) Ladder, you have to prepare for everything.

Point being, official tournament meta =/= ladder meta. I feel this topic and other resources should be geared for the latter since the vast majority of the people using them won't be doing OMPLs or Grand Slams.


On spin blocking and Stealth Rock, the very specific example aside you used for calcs, if rocks are so important to have up on enemy side and down on yours, you'd want Rapid Spin over Defog to ensure that, yes? Especially since Defog is stallable. So, wouldn't it be ideal to be able to spin block your opponent?

Now I won't argue that Zygarde removes hazards the same as Giratina, that's a niche it has over Gira. But, who's to say you can't put Zygarde to spin duties and Giratina to block duties on the same team? Doubling up on weaknesses, yeah, but you can compensate for that with a Solgaleo or something.
 
Zygarde is actually a decent Assault Vest user with offensive presence thanks to Metal Burst and its high HP stat. It can effectively lure in super-effective hits to metal burst them back, and check most special attackers without being a steel-type and without having weaknesses to PDons STABs.
 

Funbot28

Breaking hearts since '09
is a Pre-Contributor
Will hide my opinions on the current noms:
-> A+
Not to keen on dropping Giratina as of yet. The weakness to Mega Gengar, Yveltal alongside it not being immune to Volt Switch do impact it when comparing to Zygod, however lets not forget its immunity to Endeavor and ability to act as a more safeguard check to threats such as Mega Mewtwo-X (Technician and Refrigerate) and Regigigas. In terms of Fur Coat I can definitely see Zygarde-C as the more viable user now due to the fact that it no longer fears Stag Gar and fairs better against increasingly popular sweepers in Shell Smash Yveltal, but yet again I find Giratina can also provide useful utility when looking at other sets such as Magic Bounce (an actual Regi check), RegenVest and even Mold Breaker thanks to its Rapid Spin immunity. They both share their fair share of weaknesses and I really dont believe differentiating their ranking is appropriate at the given moment, their respective pick rate really ultimately is decided upon what your team is weak to, but nontheless both mons are are comparable blanket checks to a ton of shit in their own rights.

-> A+
Yeh the Magnet Pull ban (and Gengarite to some extent) really benefit Solgaleo greatly now that it doesn't need to fear coming in all the time in hopes of not getting trapped by Scarf Primal Groudon. The increase usage of Mega Mewtwo-Y also makes Solgaleo a greater pick in the current meta since unlike Regi it has an easier time coming in on none Contrary sets and also acts as a better Mega Rayquaza check when using Ice-type coverage (which more should). Unburden sets with Belly Drum are also extremely dangerous since Solgaleo's bulk enables it to scoff at most -ate revenge killers, and lets it sweep lategame due to +6 Sunsteel Strike being so hard to deal with without Prankster Registeel. Flash Fire / Levitate sets are also nice for specific improofing.

-> A
Regigigas is a pain that probably most players have struggles with at least once. However, checks to it are starting to be used more and more such as Magic Bounce Giratina and Shedinja in general. It also struggles to break through defensive dragons unless running Avalanche due to the fear of Core Enforcer (which we all know is really common rn). However, I must admit sets with Lovely Kiss have been putting in a lot of work for me since it frees up coverage, allowing it to run moves like Avalanche and Sunsteel Strike to break through its checks. Can see it rise, but just not yet.

-> B+
Even tho Shedinja wins from preview sometimes depending the MU, I still don't believe it warrants a rise yet. Here is my stance on it from a previous post:
While Shedinja is a genuinely underrated threat atm that I see a lot of builders not accounting for as of late, it still faces the same flaws as it did since the beggining of the gen which prevents it from rising at the current moment. SunGeist is a big one, especially since the ladder also offers great Ghost-type coverage which can benefit the majority of Special Attacking sweepers. Entry hazard are also becoming more prominent as they find themselves placed on the majority of teams as of late, completely invalidating Shedinja's presence if its not running its sup-optimal Magic Guard set. Finally, the rise of Giratina (one of the best defensive pivots in the metagame) also disallows Shedinja from mindlessly spamming Endeavor as it could back when Zygarde-C was all the rave, something that is quite important given the move only has 8 PP. In short, while Shedinja can be completely dominant given the right matchup in support, taking away either of these aforementioned factors basically can leave one at a 5v6 disadvantage, and is why it should stay where it's currently at (at least for now).
-> B+
Been saying that this mon was fucking busted since forever now but I feel people are starting to notice more after the Gengarite ban (since it admittedly did face opportunity cost). This mon is like the ultimate stallbreaker. Nature's Madness / NightToss / Taunt, Recovery, Espeed mandhandles defensive teams like no other threat. While it does struggle against offensive threats that outspeed it and can be hard to build around due to the threat of Imposter, with proper team support, Mega Kangaskhan can be one of the deadliest threats (especially with Illusion pre-mega), definitely can see a rise, even to A-.

-> B
Ferrothorn is a cool mon since its a Steel-type that is not forced to run Safety Goggles thanks to the Spore Immunity, freeing up item slots for things like Darkinium Z and even Red Card (since it isn't obligated to run Shed Shell anymore). Both Unaware and Flash Fire sets have their merit in checking threats in Primal Kyogre and Mega Mewtwo Y respectably, and its typing also provides it the luxury of a neutrality to Ground-type attacks, meaning it can also better check -ate wallbreakers when running FF pivot sets. It does face some competition with Registeel, Solgaleo, and even Celesteela to an extent though, so I think B is as far as it can go.

-> UR
Yeh even as a Fur Coat wall, Primal Kyogre outclasses it. Techno Blast being mainstay on a majority of Choice Specs -Ate wallbreakers kinda killed off its main niche. RegenVest sets also get outclassed by Solgaleo and Unaware was never a set to begin with, unrank.

-> D
I never saw this thing being used in the No Limit metagame, but theoretically it must have gotten worse since defensive threats can have an easier time checking it even at +6. The popularity of Giratina and Psychic Surge Mega Mewtwo Y don't help it at all either, so yeh I don't see a point of running it compared to other Triage users like Mega Rayquaza or even Kartana.

-> UR
Lets forget Triage and Dazzling since Normalize is the only set Marshadow should be running competitively. While the STAB on its Fighting-type coverage is nice, it still gets heavily outclassed by Mega Gengar due to the ladders stronger STAB options, better speed and more menacing damage output.

-> D
Another relic I never encountered since the CFZ days, I don't think Pheromosa has any niche going for it even if Mega Mewtwo Y is so prevalent. Its struggles to break through the majority of defensive pivots and has poor sustainability due to its abysmal bulk. While I never tested Stakeout sets as of yet, I can't imagine it being any good since it can't force out a lot of swithins besides when facing an unboosted MMY or Regi. There are just much better options rn imo.


Now for some of my own nominations:

-> A-
Dialga provides both offensive and defensive qualities thanks to either its Stakeout or RegenVest sets respectably. Its typing is great in checking a multitude of threats in Primal Kyogre, MMY, Choice Specs Aerilate Mega Ray, and even Regigigas to an extent. It also benefited greatly from the trapping ban since it can function more freely as a wallbreaker / bulky pivot without needing to rely on heavy predictions. Its weakness to Primal Groudon and Mega Mewtwo X is troublesome, however I believe Dialga is the prime example of a mon that benefited greatly from the recent meta changes and its rank should reflect that.

-> B / B+
Kartana is one of the most threatening sweepers rn when considering its Unburden set. This is mainly thanks to its ease in improofing itself when running Fire-type coverage and its resistance to Fairy and Normal type attacks which saves it from being too easy in revenge killing. After getting up to +6 not much can stop it besides Prankster Haze due to Sunsteel Strike being a burden (hue) to deal with. Its secondary STAB also allows it to break through common Unaware threats such as Mega Gyarados and Primal Kyogre. Triage and Steelworker sets are also noteworthy, but Unburden is what is truly making this mon shine rn.

-> B-
Mega Swampert is a threat that has been starting to pop up recently especially in OMPL (s/o to TBK) since it can act as a great way to improof many Primal Groudon sets (and in turn means that it generally acts as a good Pdon answer) with a Fur Coat set. It also is noteworthy due to it possessing a defensive typing which only provides it 1 weakness to a uncommon offensive type. It also can trap Imposter quite well with Thousand Waves + Volt Switch, a trait that can be gamechanging at times.

-> UR
If i wanted to use a niche -ate check, I would much rather go with Levitate Nihilego plz and thanks.
 
I also want to nominate mega steelix to move up to c rank. I have not seen much mega steelix usage lately and it's a really solid pick for full stall teams. You can use it as a regen vest pivot that can eat up any -ate or MMY hit and pivot out while also draining opponent momentum by not allowing them to volt switch on you, which most specs sets run, to severely chip Gyarados. I haven't really seen unaware, prank, or ff sets, but there are two other noteworthy sets: fur coat and soundproof. Fur Coat is an extremely nice check to ANY physical attacker except primal Groudon in the sun or with a boosting item. Its weaknesses are different than those of other fur coat walls, and again, it's volt switch immunity really helps it here as well. It an take at least a hit from all physical mewtwo x, pheramosa, even a +2 140 bp power trip,, and retaliate back with a powerful metal burst or counter. It's also one of the sturdiest checks to Regigigas that I know of, taking nothing even from a +3 or +4 Spectral Thief, so that it can just stall out the sleep counter and remove any boosts Regigigas got. I've been using fur coat Mega Steelix on my stall team and it does its job admirably. Soundproof mega Steelix counters most -ate users, except the wacky techno blast ones, and prevents them from mindlessly spamming their strongest attack. This is especially nice since the really threatening Specs wallbreakers like Mega Rayquaza can't mindlessly click Boomburst and force you to start healing; they have to get predictions right instead. In addition, Soundproof sets can use the combination of a trapping move and Perish Song to trap and KO more passive opponents or Imposters, which is really nice, and that Volt Switch immunity makes it more likely that the trapped mon can't escape (watch out for U-Turn).

TLDR: Respect Mega Steelix!
 

Funbot28

Breaking hearts since '09
is a Pre-Contributor
Viability Ranking Update: (5/08)

After some appreciated discussion within this thread and added discourse on PS and Discord, the BHC staff have finally voted upon the recent nominations. Note for a nomination to go through it would need a majority vote over 50% (including Abstains). If any further questions are needed upon the reasoning as to why certain changes were implemented, feel free to contact any staff member and we will be glad to clarify further.

Funbot28: Not to keen on dropping Giratina as of yet. The weakness to Mega Gengar, Yveltal alongside it not being immune to Volt Switch do impact it when comparing to Zygod, however lets not forget its immunity to Endeavor and ability to act as a more safeguard check to threats such as Mega Mewtwo-X (Technician and Refrigerate) and Regigigas. In terms of Fur Coat I can definitely see Zygarde-C as the more viable user now due to the fact that it no longer fears Stag Gar and fairs better against increasingly popular sweepers in Shell Smash Yveltal, but yet again I find Giratina can also provide useful utility when looking at other sets such as Magic Bounce (an actual Regi check), RegenVest and even Mold Breaker thanks to its Rapid Spin immunity. They both share their fair share of weaknesses and I really dont believe differentiating their ranking is appropriate at the given moment, their respective pick rate really ultimately is decided upon what your team is weak to, but nontheless both mons are are comparable blanket checks to a ton of shit in their own rights.

motherlove: Nah, Gira is one of the defensive pillars of BH and checks so much of the physical meta. Gira and ZygC both have their own unique advantages that will fit different teams, for fur coat Gira it manifest in Spinblocking, trapping immunity, fighting and normal immunities making it better against regigigas and a significantly stronger offensive presence as ghost stab can threaten some top meta threats such as mmy and mmx while Griseous boosted Core can 2HKO other Giratinas. But it's also arguable that Giratina runs non fc sets better, which we can see in the rise of its regenVest set taking advantage of the less exploitable weaknesses and neat dual stab.

E4 Flint: Abstain

ScarfWynaut: not being able to check pdon anymore doesnt detract from its viability, because lets face it, nothing checks it anyway. still a top threat. disagree

Funbot28: Yeh the Magnet Pull ban (and Gengarite to some extent) really benefit Solgaleo greatly now that it doesn't need to fear coming in all the time in hopes of not getting trapped by Scarf Primal Groudon. The increase usage of Mega Mewtwo-Y also makes Solgaleo a greater pick in the current meta since unlike Regi it has an easier time coming in on none Contrary sets and also acts as a better Mega Rayquaza check when using Ice-type coverage (which more should). Unburden sets with Belly Drum are also extremely dangerous since Solgaleo's bulk enables it to scoff at most -ate revenge killers, and lets it sweep lategame due to +6 Sunsteel Strike being so hard to deal with without Prankster Registeel. Flash Fire / Levitate sets are also nice for specific improofing.

motherlove: Nah, sure it's better now, but better than what? Being almost completely unuseable in magpull meta? If anything Solgaleo is now back to its former place, but its reliance on item (which in turn makes it rely on its ability to heal), annoying dark / ghost weakness and the fact that everyone runs spore nowadays still make it a risky pick. Comparatively I don't think it reaches the level of utility and support that check all registeel brings to a team. Magpull ban saves it from dropping, but I don't see why it should make it rise.

E4 Flint: i dont think it needs buff

ScarfWynaut: its fine as it is, it doesnt compare to the other a+ mons. disagree

Funbot28: Regigigas is a pain that probably most players have struggles with at least once. However, checks to it are starting to be used more and more such as Magic Bounce Giratina and Shedinja in general. It also struggles to break through defensive dragons unless running Avalanche due to the fear of Core Enforcer (which we all know is really common rn). However, I must admit sets with Lovely Kiss have been putting in a lot of work for me since it frees up coverage, allowing it to run moves like Avalanche and Sunsteel Strike to break through its checks. Can see it rise, but just not yet.

motherlove: Yah, Regi has some hard counters yeah, but a limited amount and most of them are pressured to wall a ton of shit. Other than that it barely has checks, it legit beats everything else, the lack of a hard counter to regi on a team will often result in an eventual loss. The team support necessary to run it is non existent, if you have a 5 mon team and don't know what to put last you can put regi it just works on its own. And it checks / Counters a significant amount of meta threats like PH xern and Kyogre. Regi also is very low risk since it wins the pp war everytime and none of his moves can miss. It's just solid af, extremely reliable and every team needs to make damn sure they have a good way to deal with it.

E4 Flint: id vote on it staying where it is, checked by core and can be shut down completely by haze/topsy ph tina

ScarfWynaut: this thing is v dumb and i hate it a lot. its so consistent. its one of those things that you just need a counter for otherwise you'll just lose. it also doesnt help how nowadays its biggest counters isn't that hard to lure in and surprise. moro's game v halliday is a pretty good example. agree

Funbot28: While mixed offensive sets are still menacing, Kyurem-Black always struggles to break through common threats depending on what coverage it chooses to run. For instance, if not holding Precipice Blades then Registeel and Solgaleo wall it, and is no Bolt Strike, Primal Kyogre and Mega Gyarados can easily switch into it. The rise of Psychic Surge Mega Mewtwo Y also dosent offer it any favors since it basically nullifies half it's movepool. Its other sets are not that good anymore tbh, so yeh a drop is fine.

motherlove: Yeah it's decent but not nearly as good as the mons around him.

E4 Flint: for B+

ScarfWynaut: ive never been a fan of kyub thanks to psychic surge being everywhere. i definitely dont think its comparable to Xerneas or Yveltal at all. though B may be a little overkill. (for reference, Xurkitree, Mega Sceptile and Zekrom are B). agree

Funbot28: Dialga provides both offensive and defensive qualities thanks to either its Stakeout or RegenVest sets respectably. Its typing is great in checking a multitude of threats in Primal Kyogre, MMY, Choice Specs Aerilate Mega Ray, and even Regigigas to an extent. It also benefited greatly from the trapping ban since it can function more freely as a wallbreaker / bulky pivot without needing to rely on heavy predictions. Its weakness to Primal Groudon and Mega Mewtwo X is troublesome, however I believe Dialga is the prime example of a mon that benefited greatly from the recent meta changes and its rank should reflect that.

motherlove: Yeah it's better than all the other mons in its rank so... defensive dialga is highly questionable but offensively it can rip apart teams with little trouble.

E4 Flint: Probably a no, but if you can convince me, i can go with it. It has lost the counter to its most powerful set, meaning have to use unaware special walls which is bad because then you cant run core, or the unawares get hit by +0 DM repeatedly

ScarfWynaut: abstain, cant rly decide.

Funbot28: Even tho Shedinja wins from preview sometimes depending the MU, I still don't believe it warrants a rise yet. I shared my opinions on it previously in the thread.

motherlove: Nah, sure shed is good but it requires a ridiculous amount of team support to function. It's also very limited with just one set as it can't quite function both defensively and offensively. Low pp doesn't help it either and moldy pursuit is still a thing that exists. Highly inconsistent, matchup reliant mon that requires intense support.

E4 Flint: doesnt need bump

ScarfWynaut: disagree

Funbot28: Been saying that this mon was fucking busted since forever now but I feel people are starting to notice more after the Gengarite ban (since it admittedly did face opportunity cost). This mon is like the ultimate stallbreaker. Nature's Madness / NightToss / Taunt, Recovery, Espeed mandhandles defensive teams like no other threat. While it does struggle against offensive threats that outspeed it and can be hard to build around due to the threat of Imposter, with proper team support, Mega Kangaskhan can be one of the deadliest threats (especially with Illusion pre-mega), definitely can see a rise, even to A-.

motherlove: Yes, Khan can just dismantle teams. One of its big advantages over other offensive mons is that kan w/ recovery can hard switch on any defensive mons without fear of 2HKO, status or any minor annoyance that can hugely annoy other offensive mons that don't use tricky gimmicks to kill shit.

E4 Flint: Yes

ScarfWynaut: yes. this thing is crazy strong. capable of single-handedly (keyword) and consistently (another keyword) break apart defensive cores whilst also beating imposter is pretty nasty. id nom this even higher but b+ is ok for now.

Funbot28: Kartana is one of the most threatening sweepers rn when considering its Unburden set. This is mainly thanks to its ease in improofing itself when running Fire-type coverage and its resistance to Fairy and Normal type attacks which saves it from being too easy in revenge killing. After getting up to +6 not much can stop it besides Prankster Haze due to Sunsteel Strike being a burden (hue) to deal with. Its secondary STAB also allows it to break through common Unaware threats such as Mega Gyarados and Primal Kyogre. Triage and Steelworker sets are also noteworthy, but Unburden is what is truly making this mon shine rn.

motherlove: Nah, I think Kartana took a huge dive in full EV since non boosting sets struggle a lot more. Its increase in bulk didn't help it a ton either as kart still struggles to setup against a vast portion of the meta, doesn't help that it's quite predictable, or that it has 4mss. Kartana is a niche pick and its rank should reflect that.

E4 Flint: tbk's tour game isnt reflective of ladder performance, dies pretty easily

ScarfWynaut: i dont like this. struggles to find set up opportunities due to its dependance on its ability (omnipresent core enforcer :[) and poor defenses. but its still good. maaybe a B, but B+ is too generous. disagree

Funbot28: Kyurem-White is one of the more uncommon wallbreakers yet I still find it possesses enough merit to warrant a rise. It capatilizes on its ability to break through common defensive pivots such as Giratina, Zygarde-C, Mega Audino, and Dialga. Contrary sets also are great in wallbreaking due to Kyu's better offensive STAB coverage compared to other threats. I rise to B should do it, since having a mon that can actually 2HKO /OHKO things after the EV limit change is refreshing.

motherlove: No, I don't really see reasons to use kyuw over either diancie or ray, diancie has core immunity and no rocks weakness as well as a better offensive typing, speed tier and a flying / dark resist. Ray is just overall better.

E4 Flint: for B here, special fridge is difficult and often underprepared for

ScarfWynaut: i dont like this. i dont see many reasons for it to rise. checks + switchins to this are very common. disagree

Funbot28: Ferrothorn is a cool mon since its a Steel-type that is not forced to run Safety Goggles thanks to the Spore Immunity, freeing up item slots for things like Darkinium Z and even Red Card (since it isn't obligated to run Shed Shell anymore). Both Unaware and Flash Fire sets have their merit in checking threats in Primal Kyogre and Mega Mewtwo Y respectably, and its typing also provides it the luxury of a neutrality to Ground-type attacks, meaning it can also better check -ate wallbreakers when running FF pivot sets. It does face some competition with Registeel, Solgaleo, and even Celesteela to an extent though, so I think B is as far as it can go.

motherlove: Sure, w/e.

E4 Flint: dont care so sure

ScarfWynaut: dont know enough about this to give a proper opinion. abstain

Funbot28: Mega Swampert is a threat that has been starting to pop up recently especially in OMPL (s/o to TBK) since it can act as a great way to improof many Primal Groudon sets (and in turn means that it generally acts as a good Pdon answer) with a Fur Coat set. It also is noteworthy due to it possessing a defensive typing which only provides it 1 weakness to a uncommon offensive type. It also can trap Imposter quite well with Thousand Waves + Volt Switch, a trait that can be gamechanging at times.

motherlove: The only reason why I'm not asking for A is lackluster bulk which makes it struggle on neutral hits but other than that its typing is phenomenal. Offensively it can run waves or arrows and can run that same waves + volt switch that zyg runs, it can switch on rocks ezpz, it has quite good bulk, better than ogre or fini physically. And electric immunity as I mentionned already is nice to have on a team in general, but in swampert's case it can also check zekrom and galv pdon which gives teams trouble. It's just a good pick bruh.

E4 Flint: Yes

ScarfWynaut: Yes

Funbot28: Yeh even as a Fur Coat wall, Primal Kyogre outclasses it. Techno Blast being mainstay on a majority of Choice Specs -Ate wallbreakers kinda killed off its main niche. RegenVest sets also get outclassed by Solgaleo and Unaware was never a set to begin with, unrank.

motherlove: Nah I'm not gonna make some drastic change like that when this mon has not even been brought up for discussion, but I would like to see discussion on it though.

E4 Flint: I think D can be ok, also i dont like such a drastic drop

ScarfWynaut: pretty harsh. im not so sure about this one but it definitely needs lowering. C or D sounds ok

Funbot28: I never saw this thing being used in the No Limit metagame, but theoretically it must have gotten worse since defensive threats can have an easier time checking it even at +6. The popularity of Giratina and Psychic Surge Mega Mewtwo Y don't help it at all either, so yeh I don't see a point of running it compared to other Triage users like Mega Rayquaza or even Kartana.

motherlove: Yeah this mon's shit and never used.

E4 Flint: niche strongest uturn in the game

ScarfWynaut: this thing is pretty horrible. its triage set is a whole lot more garbage than it sounds on paper. agreed.

Funbot28: For sure, Electric immunity alongside resistances to Psychic and Flying type attacks makes Steelix a great defensive pivot that can punish VoltTurn. Its also extremely bulky and has enough physical defense to pull off sets such as RegenVest (trust it's not bad) alongside more common sets like Soundproof, Flash Fire, and Unaware. Super underrated mon that should get used more.

motherlove: Yeh Steelix has been a niche yet solid regenvest pick since gen6, ridiculously slow speedtier is quite useful and it stops mmy from getting momentum. Also hard walls zekrom.

E4 Flint: Yes

ScarfWynaut: i like this. haven't used it on a team thats not mono ground yet but its typing + stats are neat for switching into an assortment of physical and special things. support!

Funbot28: Another relic I never encountered since the CFZ days, I don't think Pheromosa has any niche going for it even if Mega Mewtwo Y is so prevalent. Its struggles to break through the majority of defensive pivots and has poor sustainability due to its abysmal bulk. While I never tested Stakeout sets as of yet, I can't imagine it being any good since it can't force out a lot of swithins besides when facing an unboosted MMY or Regi. There are just much better options rn imo.

motherlove: Huh, why not? Pheromosa is a decent anti meta pick and I don't normally question it in team preview.

E4 Flint: C is probably ok, maybe C- for its niche of outspeeding deoA in psysurge

ScarfWynaut: Yes

Funbot28: Lets forget Triage and Dazzling since Normalize is the only set Marshadow should be running competitively. While the STAB on its Fighting-type coverage is nice, it still gets heavily outclassed by Mega Gengar due to the ladders stronger STAB options, better speed and more menacing damage output.

motherlove: Bad and not used

E4 Flint: dont know why this was included at all, at best it can be an mattack sweeper
ScarfWynaut: worthless pokemon. support

Funbot28: If i wanted to use a niche -ate check, I would much rather go with Levitate Nihilego plz and thanks.

motherlove: Nah this mon has a niche, immune to core, good bulk, respectable speed tier, resists fire, can run PH. It's not completely outclassed by anything and I won't question anything adrian puts here.

E4 Flint: while you should always question adrian (like.. always. he wanted mold breaker banned in gen 5, mewtwo mega y in gen 6 before it was released), it has a niche, and even a diancite possible set

ScarfWynaut: Disagree, has a niche, makes for a pretty nice megaray and regigigas check. can also be nice for improofing purposes.

Funbot28: Only niche is checking Primal Groudon with Flash Fire / Primordial Sea, and it's not even that good at doing it when considering more and more Dons are going wither mixed or fully special these days.

motherlove: Yeah it's shit w/e.

E4 Flint: niche imposterproof that's not dead weight for certain pdons

ScarfWynaut: no real reason to use this. agree

Funbot28: Agree with mlove, while it's a terrible choice to use in majority of the cases, it's niche in being able to able actually check most non Normalize Mega Gengar sets alongside it being able to Pursuit Choice Specs Mega Mewtwo Y is nice.

motherlove: Nah I've used it a few times it's stats are bad but typing make it a niche imposterproofing pick in specific teams without being deadweight against the meta.

E4 Flint: yeh, it's sableyemega tier

ScarfWynaut: at first glance im not convinced but both motherlove and funbot seem to have vouched for it + ive hardly ever seen this thing in action so ill abstain.


TL:DR:
  • Kyurem-B: A- -> B
  • Kangaskhan: B -> B+
  • Ferrothorn: B- -> B
  • Mega Swampert: UR -> B-
  • Mega Slowbro: B- -> C
  • Mega Heracross: C -> D
  • Mega Steelix: D -> C
  • Pheromosa: D -> C
  • Marshadow: D -> UR
  • Buzzwole: D -> UR
Other various updates will also be implemented across the resources as well to align better with the current metagame. Keep up the good discussion and stay tuned for the next update!
 
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-613824727
FYI, the ability Dazzling, Queen's Majesty, etc. does not block Prankster boosted moves, if they go 2nd. For example, on an Assist Team with Prankster, I used Assist, which was blocked, the next turn I switched to an Attack (not boosting by Prankster) move), and during that turn the foe, being faster than my Marowak, went first and used Encore, which forced it to use Assist, which since it is going second, did not count as priority and succeeded in hitting the foe.

Seems as long as a move isn't first, it isn't priority, ala 2 Sucker Punch users both failing because neither attack goes through.
 
Viability Ranking Update: (5/08)

After some appreciated discussion within this thread and added discourse on PS and Discord, the BHC staff have finally voted upon the recent nominations. Note for a nomination to go through it would need a majority vote over 50% (including Abstains). If any further questions are needed upon the reasoning as to why certain changes were implemented, feel free to contact any staff member and we will be glad to clarify further.
Couple thinks that I do not agree with BHC staff voting results:

* Gengar out of A rank please

*

Dialga is very strong in full EVs, i have seen a similar set today. Core Enforcer removes potential Unaware switch ins
and Substitute is rare and mostly used on stuff hating Core Enforcer.
You guys really need to try out Steelium Z sets.

+3 252+ SpA Steelworker Dialga Corkscrew Crash (200 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Kyogre-Primal: 420-495 (103.9 - 122.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

It checks Regigigas assuming it carries Magic Bounce and recovery move and uses Core Enforcer, and Stakeout sets involving Dragon Tail is just scary. Also Dialga is the bulkiest & strongest Core Enforcer user (Zyggy has no power, Ray doesn't have bulk from typing) in the game atm, and I believe this guy does best job shredding stall teams apart with Tail Glow.

It's typing lets it take on Primal Kyogre and combat MMY in emergency.

Why did this not move move up smh

*


Something I really want to make clear about Regigigas in general is that it is VERY, very reliant on Spore to sweep teams. If 1 turn sleep occurs, it gets sniped by Specs Surge, Band V-create, Core Enforced, phazed, etc ec.

*


I see some staff have pointed out "this mon finds hard time finding setup opportunities". But I believe this samurai should rise for a different reason; it is currently more efficient physical wallbreaker than Primal Groudon at this metagame state where every single team runs one of FC dragon family to take V-create spam. Giratina already stands in a risk of getting 2HKOed by Choice Band Sunsteel Strike when Stealth Rock is up, and Zygarde-C is has near 100% chance of getting 2HKOed by Steelworker variants after Stealth Rock damage or minimal chip, and Registeel is going to be 2HKOed from a single U-turn chip from Solgaleo. Of course Belly Drum set is a threat but that is not a factor that you should judge Kartana's viability with; it is somewhat predictable and stuff like Audino can actually stay in keep it from setting up by pressing Spectral Thief. The set using Choice Band + Sunsteel Strike + Steelworker is truly fearsome in the meta where most people currently rely on Fur Coat walls to take most physical attacks and dismiss Sunsteel Strike as "a poor coverage move with poor typing that doesn't hit anything".

*

Despite being (formerly) an avid Kyurem-W user, I barely even used it after EV limit removal. It is always forced to carry Choice Specs to OHKO key threats such as Primal Groudon and Celesteela, and it now no longer 2HKOs its own Imposter with Boomburst.
Stealth Rock weakness is VERY crippling especially to a wallbreaker who is tasked to dismantle (or 'dismantle') stall teams. Also, it can't even achieve 2HKO against Solgaleo without specifically running Blue Flare, Gyarados without Secret Sword. That already take 3 moveslots with Boomburst. The next one has to be:

- Moongeist Beam which which hits Shed
- Switcheroo which cripples Chansey and non-Z-crystal soundproof users or other walls that (strangely) dedicate themselves to wall Kyurem-W
- Draco Meteor / Core Enforcer which hits Soundprooof users and its Imposter
- Volt Switch which hits Ogre for supereffective (does like 36-43% to AV variants...) damage

And each move misses out on everything other moves do hit.

Unlike Diancie / Mega Rayquaza / Mega Mewtwo Y which can handle majority of the metagame with 3 or even 2 moves, this dragon is not even fast, weak to Stealth Rock, and is walled very easily by Steel-types without using inconsistent non-STAB coverage moves.
I am very sad to say this but I believe Kyurem-W's viability ranking should have been demoted.

*

- A wall that cannot handle Primal Groudon
- A wall that cannot handle Primal Kyogre (loses to passive Fur Coat variants I believe)
- A wall that cannot handle -ate Boomburst

252 SpA Pixilate Diancie-Mega Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Diancie: 172-204 (56.5 - 67.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal
252 SpA Choice Specs Aerilate Rayquaza-Mega Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Diancie: 141-167 (46.3 - 54.9%) -- 64.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Poison Heal

Oh if you say "carry Spiky Shield", that will significantly reduce its effectiveness in terms of utility.

- A wall that gets hit x4 effectively by Sunsteel Strike

I wouldn't really say this 'mon is capable of being a wall. 50 HP is a bane to Diancie's life.

*


It literally does nothing outsides stopping MMY; thats it. And Sheer Force MMY just laughs at it and 2HKOs it easily if it switched into Earth Power. Non-AV variants are OHKOed by Contrary MMY with +2 Fleur Cannon and Overheat (this also means Unaware variants cannot switch into MMY).

It is like "Let's use AV regen Ludicolo because it walls Primal Kyogre" or "Let's use FC Spiritomb bc it walls MMX". Probably these are really dumb and exaggerated but that is what keeping Muk-Alola outsides UR sounds like to me.
 
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For the most part I agree with the reasoning presented, but... is "super niche check to Imposters of specific sets" really notable enough to warrant ranking? I feel this is a bad precedent to use since it opens to the door to all kinds of really unimportant stuff, like Flashfire Swadloon, who really has been used before to wall certain Primal Groudon sets. Or Togekiss, who walls certain Mega Garchomp and, with Flashfire, certain Contrary sets (and I even have used FF Togekiss before, albeit a Gen ago, so yes, it was a thing at one point.) Or Fur Coat Mega-Salamence. Or anything Shuckle. Or... I could probably come up with a list of this stuff.

There's really a lot of potential super niche Imposter checks, but I feel that its all waaaaaaay too team specific to be included in a VR.
 
Idk if anyone has mentioned this but Gengar is still listed in A rank for its Gengarite set so this needs to go to UR.

I'd also like to request Unaware to be added to Primal Kyogre which serves the role well with its Steel, Fire and Ice resists with few weaknesses alongside it's almost unrivalled special bulk. It's strong mixed attack stats also mean it doesn't become too passive without an offensive ability/boosting moves.
 
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Couple thinks that I do not agree with BHC staff voting results:

* Gengar out of A rank please

*



You guys really need to try out Steelium Z sets.

+3 252+ SpA Steelworker Dialga Corkscrew Crash (200 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Kyogre-Primal: 420-495 (103.9 - 122.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

It checks Regigigas assuming it carries Magic Bounce and recovery move and uses Core Enforcer, and Stakeout sets involving Dragon Tail is just scary. Also Dialga is the bulkiest & strongest Core Enforcer user (Zyggy has no power, Ray doesn't have bulk from typing) in the game atm, and I believe this guy does best job shredding stall teams apart with Tail Glow.

It's typing lets it take on Primal Kyogre and combat MMY in emergency.

Why did this not move move up smh

*


Something I really want to make clear about Regigigas in general is that it is VERY, very reliant on Spore to sweep teams. If 1 turn sleep occurs, it gets sniped by Specs Surge, Band V-create, Core Enforced, phazed, etc ec.

*


I see some staff have pointed out "this mon finds hard time finding setup opportunities". But I believe this samurai should rise for a different reason; it is currently more efficient physical wallbreaker than Primal Groudon at this metagame state where every single team runs one of FC dragon family to take V-create spam. Giratina already stands in a risk of getting 2HKOed by Choice Band Sunsteel Strike when Stealth Rock is up, and Zygarde-C is has near 100% chance of getting 2HKOed by Steelworker variants after Stealth Rock damage or minimal chip, and Registeel is going to be 2HKOed from a single U-turn chip from Solgaleo. Of course Belly Drum set is a threat but that is not a factor that you should judge Kartana's viability with; it is somewhat predictable and stuff like Audino can actually stay in keep it from setting up by pressing Spectral Thief. The set using Choice Band + Sunsteel Strike + Steelworker is truly fearsome in the meta where most people currently rely on Fur Coat walls to take most physical attacks and dismiss Sunsteel Strike as "a poor coverage move with poor typing that doesn't hit anything".

*


Stealth Rock weakness is VERY crippling especially to a wallbreaker who is tasked to dismantle (or 'dismantle') stall teams. Also, it can't even achieve 2HKO against Solgaleo without specifically running Blue Flare, Gyarados without Secret Sword. That already take 3 moveslots with Boomburst. The next one has to be:

- Moongeist Beam which which hits Shed
- Switcheroo which cripples Chansey and non-Z-crystal soundproof users or other walls that (strangely) dedicate themselves to wall Kyurem-W
- Draco Meteor / Core Enforcer which hits Soundprooof users and its Imposter
- Volt Switch which hits Ogre for supereffective (does like 36-43% to AV variants...) damage

And each move misses out on everything other moves do hit.

Unlike Diancie / Mega Rayquaza / Mega Mewtwo Y which can handle majority of the metagame with 3 or even 2 moves, this dragon is not even fast, weak to Stealth Rock, and is walled very easily by Steel-types without using inconsistent non-STAB coverage moves.
I am very sad to say this but I believe Kyurem-W's viability ranking should have been demoted.

*

- A wall that cannot handle Primal Groudon
- A wall that cannot handle Primal Kyogre (loses to passive Fur Coat variants I believe)
- A wall that cannot handle -ate Boomburst

252 SpA Pixilate Diancie-Mega Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Diancie: 172-204 (56.5 - 67.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal
252 SpA Choice Specs Aerilate Rayquaza-Mega Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Diancie: 141-167 (46.3 - 54.9%) -- 64.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Poison Heal

Oh if you say "carry Spiky Shield", that will significantly reduce its effectiveness in terms of utility.

- A wall that gets hit x4 effectively by Sunsteel Strike

I wouldn't really say this 'mon is capable of being a wall. 50 HP is a bane to Diancie's life.

*


It literally does nothing outsides stopping MMY; thats it. And Sheer Force MMY just laughs at it and 2HKOs it easily if it switched into Earth Power. Non-AV variants are OHKOed by Contrary MMY with +2 Fleur Cannon and Overheat (this also means Unaware variants cannot switch into MMY).

It is like "Let's use AV regen Ludicolo because it walls Primal Kyogre" or "Let's use FC Spiritomb bc it walls MMX". Probably these are really dumb and exaggerated but that is what keeping Muk-Alola outsides UR sounds like to me.
AV Muk with Spectral Thief, U-Turn, Knock Off, and Nuzzle/Filler can disarm, status, and switch out to pivot, similar to Solgaleo
 
Mega Steelix -> C. C is already filled with junk and mega steelix's physical bulk is a valid niche.

Lunala -> D. It's 4x weak to two common types and not very useful resistances, psychic STAB is not a useful niche unless you're running psychic surge*, your spa is significantly worse than mega gengar's/mmy's/whatever and 97 speed while decent is nowhere near enough to save you from being nuked. Not to mention unburden users can't switch out, so you can't just tank the offending coverage with something else and pivot back in. Did I mention it's going to instantly die to knock off, spectral thief and moongeist beam?** (also, it's physical bulk is pretty meh and it doesn't resist much)

Similarly, Krookodile -> D, as a UU mon that can improof, trap and kill Mewtwo-Mega-Y it's easily as good as Muk-Alola, see Willdbeast's awesome RMT.

While we're on the subject, if that's what Muk-Alola's for, Regenerator should be removed and Adaptability should be added. If not, Muk-Alola -> Unranked, it can't do anything else.

I agree that KyuW sucks - it can't switch in on anything and its offensive stats are passable at best making it a worse specs user than ray or mmy and a worse contrary user than insert contrary user here. Not sure about C, maybe, but definitely no higher than it is now.

Finally: Diancie-Mega -> A+. This thing has its checks, but it's still insanely good.

252 SpA Pixie Plate Pixilate Diancie-Mega Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Giratina: 536-632 (106.3 - 125.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+3 252 SpA Rayquaza-Mega Oblivion Wing vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Diancie-Mega: 154-182 (50.6 - 59.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+6 252 SpA Rayquaza-Mega Oblivion Wing vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Diancie-Mega: 246-291 (80.9 - 95.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Pixie Plate Pixilate Diancie-Mega Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Rayquaza-Mega: 608-716 (146.8 - 172.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Pixie Plate Pixilate Diancie-Mega Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Tyranitar-Mega: 356-422 (88.1 - 104.4%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Pixie Plate Pixilate Diancie-Mega Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tyranitar-Mega: 236-282 (58.4 - 69.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Pixie Plate Pixilate Diancie-Mega Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Mewtwo-Mega-X: 348-410 (83.6 - 98.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (kills after Fake Out)
252 Atk Pixie Plate Pixilate Diancie-Mega Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Rayquaza-Mega: 348-410 (84 - 99%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (kills after Fake Out)

and all of these were with a hardy nature. FakeSpeeders are also good for their ability to kill things regardless of how many speed and attack/spa boosts they have, letting you for example kill rogue imposters after being worn down by other mons or contrary mons who've began snowballing.

*the only mon relevant to BH weak to psychic is Mega Gengar and it's 60/80/95 bulk allows most attackers's neutral hits to OHKO or 2HKO it.

**alright, I might be exaggerating a little.
 
Hey guys, can we nominate Swadloon? With Flashfire and Eviolite it makes great Imposter-proof against Stakeout Primal Groudon running V-Create, Bolt Strike, and Precipice Blades!

+2 252+ Atk Choice Band Groudon-Primal Precipice Blades vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Eviolite Swadloon: 116-137 (36.9 - 43.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

I mean, nobody runs Icicle Crash, Draco Meteor, or Fleur Cannon after all!

Oh, lets also nominate Volcanion since it 4x resists Refrigerate lacking Electric or Ground coverage and 2x resists Pixelate lacking Rock or Ground, making it great for Imposter-proofing! It does nothing else worthwhile you say? Psssh, who cares, Imposter-proofing under specific circumstances!

Also, Darmitan-Z, since it beats Mewtwo lacking Dark/Ghost/Ground coverage nearly regardless of ability. Which Mewtwo you ask? The answer is yes.


...okay, more seriously, if I'm way too snarky with all that I apologize since I'm in a terrible mood right now but, can you guys please unrank Alolan-Muk? The viability list really doesn't need these extreme niche Pokemon that aren't even a little bit splashable and, no offense IronedSandwich or Wildbeast, its opening the door to suggestions like Krookodile. I mean, yeah, someone made it work. But, it serves one very specific role on one very specific team built very specifically to accommodate it, that's not something worth noting in a viability ranking. Alolan-Muk is in the same boat, as is the crap I mentioned just above, so either please kill this stuff off or, if you guys are really insistent, make some extreme niche category if you really wanna trudge through it all.



...admittedly, an extreme niche section separate from the viability ranks would be kinda neat, but it really shouldn't be part of the viability ranks.


...also admittedly, that Swadloon calculation is hilariously impressive. Now I see why people actually used that thing with a straight face last generation before the GKR suspect.
 
Hey guys, can we nominate Swadloon? With Flashfire and Eviolite it makes great Imposter-proof against Stakeout Primal Groudon running V-Create, Bolt Strike, and Precipice Blades!

+2 252+ Atk Choice Band Groudon-Primal Precipice Blades vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Eviolite Swadloon: 116-137 (36.9 - 43.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

I mean, nobody runs Icicle Crash, Draco Meteor, or Fleur Cannon after all!

Oh, lets also nominate Volcanion since it 4x resists Refrigerate lacking Electric or Ground coverage and 2x resists Pixelate lacking Rock or Ground, making it great for Imposter-proofing! It does nothing else worthwhile you say? Psssh, who cares, Imposter-proofing under specific circumstances!

Also, Darmitan-Z, since it beats Mewtwo lacking Dark/Ghost/Ground coverage nearly regardless of ability. Which Mewtwo you ask? The answer is yes.


...okay, more seriously, if I'm way too snarky with all that I apologize since I'm in a terrible mood right now but, can you guys please unrank Alolan-Muk? The viability list really doesn't need these extreme niche Pokemon that aren't even a little bit splashable and, no offense IronedSandwich or Wildbeast, its opening the door to suggestions like Krookodile. I mean, yeah, someone made it work. But, it serves one very specific role on one very specific team built very specifically to accommodate it, that's not something worth noting in a viability ranking. Alolan-Muk is in the same boat, as is the crap I mentioned just above, so either please kill this stuff off or, if you guys are really insistent, make some extreme niche category if you really wanna trudge through it all.



...admittedly, an extreme niche section separate from the viability ranks would be kinda neat, but it really shouldn't be part of the viability ranks.


...also admittedly, that Swadloon calculation is hilariously impressive. Now I see why people actually used that thing with a straight face last generation before the GKR suspect.
You might think its snarky but it sure gave me a well needed chuckle :toast:
 
Firstly Gengar is still trapped in A rank erroneously, also Xerneas and Magearna are sitting there disrupting the local steel types with Magnet Pull as an ability. These need fixing and I'll edit in any more I see.

Mega Steelix -> C. C is already filled with junk and mega steelix's physical bulk is a valid niche.

Lunala -> D. It's 4x weak to two common types and not very useful resistances, psychic STAB is not a useful niche unless you're running psychic surge*, your spa is significantly worse than mega gengar's/mmy's/whatever and 97 speed while decent is nowhere near enough to save you from being nuked. Not to mention unburden users can't switch out, so you can't just tank the offending coverage with something else and pivot back in. Did I mention it's going to instantly die to knock off, spectral thief and moongeist beam?** (also, it's physical bulk is pretty meh and it doesn't resist much)

Similarly, Krookodile -> D, as a UU mon that can improof, trap and kill Mewtwo-Mega-Y it's easily as good as Muk-Alola, see Willdbeast's awesome RMT.

While we're on the subject, if that's what Muk-Alola's for, Regenerator should be removed and Adaptability should be added. If not, Muk-Alola -> Unranked, it can't do anything else.

I agree that KyuW sucks - it can't switch in on anything and its offensive stats are passable at best making it a worse specs user than ray or mmy and a worse contrary user than insert contrary user here. Not sure about C, maybe, but definitely no higher than it is now.

Finally: Diancie-Mega -> A+. This thing has its checks, but it's still insanely good.

252 SpA Pixie Plate Pixilate Diancie-Mega Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Giratina: 536-632 (106.3 - 125.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+3 252 SpA Rayquaza-Mega Oblivion Wing vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Diancie-Mega: 154-182 (50.6 - 59.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+6 252 SpA Rayquaza-Mega Oblivion Wing vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Diancie-Mega: 246-291 (80.9 - 95.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Pixie Plate Pixilate Diancie-Mega Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Rayquaza-Mega: 608-716 (146.8 - 172.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Pixie Plate Pixilate Diancie-Mega Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Tyranitar-Mega: 356-422 (88.1 - 104.4%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Pixie Plate Pixilate Diancie-Mega Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tyranitar-Mega: 236-282 (58.4 - 69.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Pixie Plate Pixilate Diancie-Mega Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Mewtwo-Mega-X: 348-410 (83.6 - 98.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (kills after Fake Out)
252 Atk Pixie Plate Pixilate Diancie-Mega Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Rayquaza-Mega: 348-410 (84 - 99%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (kills after Fake Out)

and all of these were with a hardy nature. FakeSpeeders are also good for their ability to kill things regardless of how many speed and attack/spa boosts they have, letting you for example kill rogue imposters after being worn down by other mons or contrary mons who've began snowballing.

*the only mon relevant to BH weak to psychic is Mega Gengar and it's 60/80/95 bulk allows most attackers's neutral hits to OHKO or 2HKO it.

**alright, I might be exaggerating a little.
Can confirm: the RMT is in fact "awesome" and should definitely be ranked S or at least A+

I was tempted to suggest Krookogod here but was afraid of being laughed out :[ It has a small niche of being immune to psychic and electric (aka volt switch) without an ability which means it can serve to check (or even counter!) some specs mmy fairly well with pursuit and the moongeist resist helps to this end. On the other hand is outclassed 99% of the time by volt absorb [Gyarados-Mega/Yveltal/Tyranitar-Mega] with its only niche being its ability, and even with adaptability it still only hits ever so slightly harder that ttar. Not sure if this warrants a ranking if I'm gonna be honest.

I'd agree with Steelix-Mega to C rank due to its insane physical bulk and passable special bulk as well as the ever desirable Steel typing that does all the Steely things such as checking most ate (not Refrigerate) and being immune to Electric gives it a niche over other Steels despite possibly worse typing otherwise; beating Galvanise and random bolt strikes is cool not to mention discouraging volt switch and stealing momentum (did I say it's really slow? No need to run lv 93 here).

Was also gonna talk about Ho-oh but out of time, I'll edit in reasoning if no-one else says it for me.
 
Muk actually has uses outside of niche imposterproofing tho, it can wall any variant of contrary mmy which other unaware mons can't claim to do, it also walls a lot of gengar sets, mons like contrary sceptile or triage ray, can pursuit trap and also acts as a decent check to surge mmy.

So yeah I don't think muk is in the same boat as all the crap you mentioned just above, I think it's better. And sure maybe it opens the door for dumb nominations but that's why we have a bhc staff who can weed out what's not worth ranking and rank what is worth.
 
Muk actually has uses outside of niche imposterproofing tho, it can wall any variant of contrary mmy which other unaware mons can't claim to do, it also walls a lot of gengar sets, mons like contrary sceptile or triage ray, can pursuit trap and also acts as a decent check to surge mmy.

Ummm...

252 SpA Life Orb Mewtwo-Mega-Y Overheat vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Muk-Alola: 181-213 (43.7 - 51.4%) -- 8.6% chance to 2HKO

252+ SpA Life Orb Mewtwo-Mega-Y Overheat vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Muk-Alola: 199-234 (48 - 56.5%) -- 86.7% chance to 2HKO

252 SpA Mewtwo-Mega-Y Overheat vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Muk-Alola: 139-164 (33.5 - 39.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 SpA Mewtwo-Mega-Y Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Muk-Alola: 192-228 (46.3 - 55%) -- 67.6% chance to 2HKO (Also applies to Psy Surge MMY!)

252+ SpA Mewtwo-Mega-Y Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Muk-Alola: 212-250 (51.2 - 60.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252- Atk Mewtwo-Mega-Y V-create vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Muk-Alola: 186-219 (44.9 - 52.8%) -- 25.8% chance to 2HKO

This is assuming Muk runs + SpD nature, which I dunno if it usually does or not. But, this is definitely not "walling any variant of Contrary MMY". Yeah, Contrary MMY doesn't always carry LO or Earth Power (I have seen Specs though, which I didn't calc). Additionally, Muk doesn't even reliably check the Modest sets, V-Create sets, or Earth Power sets without using Spectral Thief to steal V-Create.

252 Atk Muk-Alola Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252- Def Mewtwo-Mega-Y: 302-356 (72.5 - 85.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Muk-Alola Spectral Thief vs. 252 HP / 252- Def Mewtwo-Mega-Y: 186-220 (44.7 - 52.8%) -- 25.8% chance to 2HKO


Vs Gengar, if its Entrainment does it really matter if Muk walls? Not even Revelation Dance works to force Gengar out because it becomes Poison-typing on Muk: 252 SpA Muk-Alola Revelation Dance vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Gengar-Mega: 24-29 (9.1 - 11%) -- possibly the worst move ever

Other Gengar sets? Yeah probably, unless they have Ground coverage. Pretty rare though, so not worth calcing. Mold Breaker sets 2HKO Muk if they get to set-up before it switches in unless they're carrying like... Ghost/Poison/Pursuit coverage.


Vs Contrary Sceptile, this is the most favorable roll in a straight 1v1: 252 SpA Sceptile-Mega Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Muk-Alola: 166-196 (40 - 47.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO This is barely walling and not at all if rocks are up or Muk has taken a single pivot U-Turn.


Triage Ray? Common switch-ins are Steel-types since Rock and Electric aren't common. And all are weak to Ground. Thus, Triage Ray often carries something like Earth Power. Which.... oh 252+ SpA Rayquaza-Mega Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Muk-Alola: 200-236 (48.3 - 57%) -- 91.4% chance to 2HKO

I'm confident Triage is usually Modest, but here's a Timid anyway. 252 SpA Rayquaza-Mega Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Muk-Alola: 180-214 (43.4 - 51.6%) -- 9% chance to 2HKO


Arceus help you if any of the above carries Z-move for hitting Steel-types or something.



I'm sorry but, I really do not see Muk as a viable Unaware wall except in cases where the opponent happens to not bring any of the right coverage. Which... is not reliable on the ladder. And even then, the numbers are so shaky that the presence of Stealth Rock or U-Turn chip damage eliminates its ability to even switch in safely. Really, any typical bulky Pokemon in the meta does general Unaware purposes better and with broader viability. Only role I can see Muk for is Imposter-proofing certain teams.