90% of prankster mons look the same with haze recovery dbond attacking move. Note that none of these are targeting. Granted Prank Spore is a thing but say on Registeel which has a really high Prank usage Spore isn't even on the moveset list.
I have seen Prankster Defog, Spore, Parting Shot, Topsy Turvey, etc. And I know they were Prankster because I Mega-Evolved my Illusion Gyarados after setting up Hazards, and saw that these moves failed. (I.e. I did not use Taunt). This was from Ferrothorn, Registeel, Giratina, Zygarde, and others that are Hazers and that can be found rather commonly on teams (albeit Ferrothorn is the exception and is uncommon one)...
This is where you are getting confused. You are comparing a wallbreaker and a late game sweeper.
Um, actually I quoted your previous post on it being a Swift Swim wallbreaker, so I am aware it was a wallbreaker.... Also, I would argue that a fast powerhouse like Palkia, using Swift Swim and Specs is also sweeping a team. Yes, it is built for breaking walls like Giratina, but isn't it also sweeping anything that doesn't resist its Choice-locked move? If anything, they are both sweepers, Palkia simply doubles as a wall breaker hence similar coverage moves (Water STAB, anti-Dragon coverage moves)... similar SpA stat, and both holding a Choice Specs... Also, Primordial Sea Greninja breaks Primal-Don, while Mega Launcher Dark Pulse breaks Giratina: 252 SpA Choice Specs Mega Launcher Greninja-Ash Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Giratina: 462-546 (91.6 - 108.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Does that make Greninja a wall breaker too, because they handle the same walls?
Why should a palkia user switch in to something that is faster? I personally used specs rain pogre and I can say that getting it in for free on stuff it forces out like regi and aud. In the defensive side only incredibly rare mons like max speed Arceus and defensive ph timid xern outspeed. If you are using palkia against an offensive mon you are pretty desperate.
I wasn't suggesting a Palkia user should come in on something faster,
Anaconja was saying that my point on Greninja being faster and not needing Swift Swim was negated by the fact that Greninja has lower Defenses, and my argument to him was that if it is going to take a hit then its Water Spout wont be at full power either way. Further, my point was that it could sport its own rain through Primordial Sea, or use Mega Launcher Origin Pulse without needing a teammate (slower = getting hit before you use Water Spout). His point was that Greninja's speed allowing it to hit off full HP Water Spout was stopped by taking bigger hits on survivors, while mine was the fact Palkia is going slower than many opponents, so it will be hard to keep it at full HP/power (while Kyogre at least runs PH or healing moves).
More over, my big point is: If Greninja has about the same power as Palkia, if not more, then it can 1HKO and keep its Water Spout at 100% which means that unlike Palkia, it doesn't risk getting hit first by the foe because it will likely make its move before them.
100*1.5-85*1.5=15*1.5=22.5
(Sorry if this is offensive)
It was a typo, I already listed the format of 127 BP Dragon Pulse vs STAB Spacial Rend: "If Swift Swim Palkia with Specs has about the same SpA as Greninja with Specs, and Greninja 127.5 base power (
BP) in Mega Launcher Dragon Pulse vs Palkia's 150 STAB Spacial Rend (Draco Meteor loses power and may be less appealing and Core Enforcer only matters when slow). Thus Palkia's niche is only using Modest and more speed in the rain, while missing out on key coverage in Fighting and base power in STAB. Giratina, Necrozma, and Mega-Lati@s take much more from Mega Launcher Dark Pulse than Swift Swim Spacial Rend, which is key for the Water resists that are weak to both Dragon and Dark."
Next you are comparing rain ashninja and ss palkia which isn't ideal, compare both rain sets would be better, again speed tier is the difference between a wallbreaker and a late game sweeper.
But with Swift Swim impacting Palkia's Speed, and thus its own Speed tier, doesn't that simultaneously make Palkia a sweeper? Tinted Lens and Adaptability make it a Wallbreaker because it adds power Greninja doesn't have (STAB Dragon Moves), and Swift Swim Palkia, if it is considered another Wallbreaker set, must by default be considered a Sweeper set (if Greninja-Ash is), because they literally provide the same coverage (anti-Dragon coverage, STAB Water, etc.), both have the same item, and are both used because of their high speed... Why else use Swift Swim Palkia over Tinted Lens Palkia if not to sweep Pokemon that it can 1HKO, now attacking first, (not just the slow walls).
252+ Atk Groudon-Primal V-create vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Greninja-Ash in Harsh Sunshine: 314-369 (90.2 - 106%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
You have actually taken my quote out of context...
Anaconja said that Palkia can switch into Primal-Groudon's V-Create and survive to hit with Draco Meteor, which was in response to my point that Ash-Greninja could check Groudon-Primal with Primordial Sea (i.e. its a check-not a counter, so it would come in safely on a slow pivot, and threaten it with Water moves in the rain). It was comparing Primordial Sea Greninja vs Swift Swim Palkia... being able to check it... As Palkia cannot launch Water moves in the Desolate Land weather, and since you brought up accuracy (your point on Spacial Rend), Draco Meteor may even miss... Further based on your Calculations, you are missing the point of a check (to switch in, thus the rain is in effect, not the sun, thus Fire moves are prevented). It would likely also not use Precipice Blades and use Thousand Arrows instead (for the same reason you suggested to use Core Enforcer instead of Spacial Rend- pp and accuracy):
252+ Atk Groudon-Primal Thousand Arrows vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Greninja-Ash: 210-247 (60.3 - 70.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Again more on speed issues. Also why use coverage against stuff like ferro when you have this: 252+ SpA Choice Specs Palkia Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ferrothorn in Heavy Rain: 218-257 (61.9 - 73%)
Because if it is Prankster Spore, you will need to KO it on the turn you wake up, thus 2HKOing it wont save you from it Sporing you once again and then it healing back up...
Whereas: 252+ SpA Choice Specs Mega Launcher Palkia Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 208+ SpD Ferrothorn: 322-380 (91.4 - 107.9%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery means you can be almost certain it wont be able to Spore you, heal, and set-up.
No one would switch in non av dialga against a wallbreaker. Also for everyone scarf palkia is bad use specs thank. Regardless of scarf since dialga runs modest mainly if not av you outspeed anyways.
He was making a point to mention AV sets. My point is that AV is not the only set it can run, and thus I included Dialga's other calc. Remember, depending on how the match is played, they wont necessarily know your Palkia set (if they do then using Specs after your first hit, each switch in, makes it easier for them to just switch in a resist). Using a surprise Aura Sphere from Mega Launcher would enable Palkia to sweep past non-AV variants because it would be a 1HKO. I.e. they send in Dialga after seeing your Palkia is a Choice Specs user (seeing it KO something with its STAB before you switch it out and back in), and do not realize it can also use Aura Sphere at 255 base power *predicting as your 1st move on their switch to Dialga* (super effective + Mega Launcher boost). In this context, I was saying Palkia might make a good Mega Launcher user, because it's Dragon Pulse (now stronger than Tinted Lens/SS Core Enforcer), and Origin Pulse get STABs, and then it could also get Aura Sphere boosted for its relevant soft-checks like Dialga. *Remember, his calcs omitted Choice Specs, as did mine, since we are comparing Specs, here is the standard damage-
Also, I underpowered Greninja by forgoing Specs, below are the actual anti-Dialga Specs Calcs:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Mega Launcher Palkia Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Dialga: 378-446 (93.5 - 110.3%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
As I said above ss is used only on dedicated rain teams with sufficient support although rain is still bad. Also without specs imposter is weak af.
Imposter might be considered weak in your eyes, but it gets a free hit on your switch, non-the-less, and if it has Adaptability, or Tinted Lens, then it will be hitting pretty decently, at least on Water Spout, plus it can switch moves, making your Imposterproofing much more difficult. Either way, my point was 2 fold: Why not just use Mega Launcher Greninja in the same rain support, this way you have something already fast, with Specs, and a boosting ability, so it has the ability slot advantage that Palkia fills with Swift Swim, allowing Greninja to use the abilities Palkia can only use on its slower sets (Mega Launcher + Origin Pulse, Adaptability + Water Spout, or even Tinted Lens + Water Spout, now that I think of it). My second point was a slow pivot to a weather changer like P-Don, or Tyranitar-Mega removes its Speed advantage, for all future opponents until the Drizzle user is sent back in again, while Greninja can continue to sweep at a high speed regardless, especially if you need to set the weather, clear hazards, and switch.
More on taking damage, rocks can never be staying on the field for long before you clear it. I myself would never switch in a Spout user into hazards, would you?
Again no need to use coverage moves when water spout does enough damage.
Um, my point wasn't to switch it in on hazards, it was to not assume Palkia will be at 100% HP without a healing move during each calculation, while he assumed that Groudon would be taking his SR damage. I.e. If you are going to assume SR on their field, assume it on yours, to be fair. Otherwise, don't put SR in the calcs for Groudon-P taking damage. By your argument, then we we should also assume that "rocks can never be staying on the field for long before you clear it" for the opponent as well.
Especially if your team uses Defog over Rapid Spin... My point isn't that we shouldn't include rocks, its that we should include it for both sides of the field, if we include it at all. Also doing enough damage is subjective. Sometimes a 2HKO isn't enough, especially if your Palkia is facing a Pokemon that can take a hit and heal (such as the aforementioned Prankster, Spore Ferrothorn, that would carry a healing move like Shore Up). Coverage moves break checks, while relying on hoping Palkia is at 100% HP for the full duration of the match is unrealistic, plus coverage moves always have their place on a wall breaker,
as some walls demand you bring the right coverage such as when you mentioned it would carry Thunder for Kyogre
252 Atk Palkia Dragon Tail vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Kyogre-Primal: 79-94 (19.5 - 23.2%) -- possible 5HKO
Helping it gain health with regen is not a good idea.
Clearly my point was on RengenVest/Unaware Palkia being a counter against Kyogre in general, as it doesn't only have to be considered a counter against a RegenVest Kyogre... Further, what if we include SR damage, since some of his calcs did? Now It wont heal off damage from Palkia anymore (it'll only accumulate a little additional damage, but it definitely serves its purpose on Kyogre being forced out, and it prevents healing, meaning Kyogre has to plan to switch in against something else). A counter/check only needs to force a foe out, and Dragon Tail ensures Palkia does that.
So would any fairy type that fear the water spout from Palkia or Ashninja. He just meant (or she) that Fairies take both dragon and dark.
My point is that at least Dark does damage and isn't blocked 100%... For example, if someone switches in Magic Guard Diancie-Mega because they assume you will use Ice Beam as it is Choice Locked, but then see you used a Dark Move such as the one below, they will be hesistant to stay in if they had taken even minor previous damage (such as a Volt Switch from a teammate): 252 SpA Choice Specs Mega Launcher Greninja-Ash Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252- SpD Diancie-Mega: 136-161 (44.7 - 52.9%) -- 27.3% chance to 2HKO (Again Diancie-Mega has to be at near perfect HP to not gaurantee it'll be 2HKOed, while Dragon means it could come in at 1 HP and force you out...)
And finally in terms of large support I suggest everyone go calc it and see it only needs to click water spout and the occasional Draco on Tina and don. Also, what does your Ashninja need, does it not run Water Spout, does it not run a choice item because if it doesn't run specs its really weak. Because it requires support thats why its C-Material.
Um, again, we are assuming many things: Palkia is at 100% HP, the foe has no resists to Dragon + Water, and that although you mentioned it has Choice Specs you assume it isn't choice locked into a move your foe can switch appropriately into (such as a Fairy into Draco Meteor). Ash-Greninja, depending on the set would run either Water Spout + Primordial Sea, or Mega Launcher + Origin Pulse, (both with Choice Specs), although if it needed Tinted Lens, with support I guess, then it could be used as well.
The only real comparison and advantage for Swift Swim Specs Palkia (assuming they both safely come in at 100% HP for fully powered Water Spouts), is that Palkia can run Modest, and use Dragon STAB, while Greninja can run Dark STAB and supplement Draco Meteor with Ice Beam on 4x weak Dragons like Rayquaza- If they are not weak to Mega Launcher Aura Sphere (Dialga), Dark Pulse (Giratina), etc.
Lastly, if you were to truly compare them, you would have the same team (support) for each, as in Drizzle and Defog/Rapid Spin teammates. Therefore, the advantage Greninja has is the ability to run Tinted Lens, Adaptability or Mega Launch with Water Spout or Origin Pulse, respectively, pushing its water STAB above SS Palkia's, despite Palkia being able to run a Modest Nature in SS.
So you are comparing a mon with a offensive ability and a mon with a speed ability and you say one has more power.
Well, I was comparing it also to Palkia's other sets a little when they mentioned Tinted Lens/Adaptability, because my concern was that a slower Pokemon would eventually get hit by faster opponents, while if we are to assume Specs+Water Spout 1HKOs as long as you go first, then Greninja has the advantage... Greninja can, afterall, also run those abilities, especially if both get the same team support (Rain + Hazards control). Well, to the SS ability, if you call it a wallbreaker, but Greninja has more power, then doesn't that make Greninja better at wallbreaker? That's the additional comparison...
Nevertheless, Palkia's Tinted Lens Core Enforcer is reason enough for Palkia to keep its set, I agree it should be ranked... Just not for SS
Also you would run Core Enforcer over Spacial Rend because acc and pp.
Great points that I touched on above regarding Groudon more likely to use 1K Arrows due to PP and Accuracy...
Key coverage doesn't matter when you 2hko nearly everything anyway (kinda like Pogre but you have dragon coverage and you all lose to regenvest pogre iirc). Only tina matters in your set of dragons and dies to Draco/Core anyways.
Well actually, Draco Meteor loses power, so it's really not a reliable move, and if accuracy matters between Core and Spacial Rend, then Draco's lower Accuracy than both moves doesn't do it any favors. Seriously, Core needs to be enough on its own, otherwise Greninja can use Ice Beam/Dark Pulse to achieve the same/similar KOs on Giratina, Rayquaza, etc. as applicable.
For example: 252 SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Greninja-Ash Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde-Complete in Rain: 618-728 (97.1 - 114.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Anaconja already assumed rain was supporting Palkia with Adaptability:
252+ SpA Adaptability Palkia Steam Eruption vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Audino-Mega in Rain: 270-318 (65.8 - 77.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Let's move on...
