Balanced Hackmons Suspects and Bans

E4 Flint

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Balanced Hackmons Suspects and Bans
Note: to jump to the official ban-list directly, click here
Welcome to the Balanced Hackmons Suspects and Bans thread. The purpose of this thread is to stay in spirit with the one verbatim created here. However, as can be seen in that thread, there are primarily two chief problems that, in my opinion, hamper our decision making process so far:
  • The first and main problem in these suspect discussion, is the throwing around of colorful terms that sound ominous and dangerous, and easily try to sway one's opinion; things like centralizing, overcentralizing, unstoppable, impossible to be countered, destabilizing, meta-threatening, broken, overpowered/OP and much more. The main problem is that despite the weight in these words, on their own, they have little context and therefore meaning in terms of BH.
  • The second problem is, of course, the unsure footing of BH's ban process and philosophy itself; should it follow a standards tier? Other OMs? A weird mix of both?
The purpose of this thread is to rectify both of these problems by a) defining exactly what the ban philosophy of the tier is and b) creating a general outline so that there is a definition that the aforementioned adjectives to describe mechanics can refer to.

A Banning Philosophy for a Broken Meta
The best place to start is from the basics.
Balanced Hackmons Central said:
What is Balanced Hackmons?
From a technical standpoint, Balanced Hackmons is an Other Meta that allows you to use nearly anything possible that you can battle with in a link battle between players, in the most current cartridge.

Conceptually, BH is defined as a sandbox tier where one can use Pokemon to their fullest potential. Nearly any Pokemon can be used, with normal restrictions being removed; Megas and other formes can be used without any transformation or item. Pokemon can make use of nearly any move and ability in the game, instead of being limited to what they can legally have, and any item can be used.

What makes it "Balanced"?
The removal of abilities, moves or Pokemon that focus the meta only around their use.
It is important to note that nowhere in the definition is there a mention of having a "balanced" tier in terms of perfect harmony between offense, balance and stall (which in many cases is impossible, and would probably need another full length essay to have a meaning for anyway).

The main motivation is to try and keep as much in the tier as possible barring a few anomalies (how do we know what the anomalies are? See next section). This automatically removes the possibility of applying any of the arguments from standard tiers or other OMs into BH. Essentially, the "balanced" title is a misnomer; a truer name for BH is probably AEA - "Almost Everything Allowed", a tier where conventionally 'broken' things stay in the same space and check each other. The central identity is therefore inclusion of as much as possible in the games. Therefore, the banning philosophy can be summed as a 'Less is more' approach or..
Strive for the least impact. That's pretty much it. We want to remove as few things as possible to solve a problem we are facing in the meta, by banning the exact source of the problem through discussion. Think of it as finding the lowest factor of a number.
Examples in existing decisions: banning Wonder Guard, instead of banning all mons with specific types that are difficult to stop or with a certain BST, banning Primal Groudon, instead of banning several abilities that many mons can benefit from etc
I understand this is still somewhat vague - how do we know when clauses are too much, or that something is too generic? That's where the next section comes in which is the real guide on how to "prove" a mechanic is broken. The philosophy, as the name implies, is more of a thought process than something that has to be explicitly shown in an argument.

Ban Rhetoric Guide
To keep in the spirit of "least impact", I decided to make my own little outline of which mechanic should be focused on in what circumstances. Not only should this lower the ban statement to its simplest terms (e.g. instead of saying "ban poison heal on setup sweepers" to "ban Kyogre-Primal") but also it will bring to focus the right mechanic that needs to be banned (e.g. "ban Groudon-Primal" instead of "ban V-Create"). Arguments that are made for or against a ban should at least consider these points that are given below in their discussion points.

So let's get right to it; I have divided each discussion point to the specific mechanic below.

Pokemon Ban:
I decided to start with the big one first; a full Pokemon ban. Unheard of in the last generation, the sheer power creep and especially the addition of the EV limit really forced the community's collective hand. However, I want to keep this as a last resort option, similar to my predecessor and the last generation. Banning a Pokemon to me goes against the philosophy I mentioned above and the spirit of BH. Therefore, in my opinion, these are the following properties a Pokemon should have to be considered banworthy:
  • Inherent/Natural Qualities:
    • Pokemon should be considered first and foremost as a blank state with no ability or specific moveset. It should outshine every other Pokemon in the tier and be considered head and shoulders above them. A banworthy Pokemon would have high offensive and defensive stats, a great and balanced stat spread. This would set them apart from general extremes that do not warrant bans (from Deoxys-Attack to Shuckle to Blissey).
    • In addition, their typing would grant both a great offensive STAB as well as uncommon or easy to patch weaknesses (e.g. by an ability), and also be neutral or resistant to common hazards
  • Multidimensional and Unique Sets:
    • Building off of our natural traits, we now get into the 'mon's experience "in the field."
    • The inherent stat spread which leads to a great offensive and defensive prowess should logically allow the Pokemon to run many different sets and different roles, all of which vary from passable to dominant in the tier, whether defensive or offensive. This stops the Pokemon from being predictable. This again plays back into the battle of the extremes; it is just as unlikely to see Registeel being a nuke as having Gengar-Mega being your team's defensive anchor
    • Despite this it is important to get past simply being the jack of all trades. This gets into the second part of the natural traits; there has to be a subset of the main sets that can be run on the 'mon that are unique to it, either from its STAB combination, defensive typing or more
    • It is important to have both of these traits. Study Shedinja and Chansey with Imposter and its combination of HP and ability to hold Eviolite are unique threats, but are the definition of one-dimensional. Meanwhile, Arceus has one of the best evenly balanced stat spreads but fails to differentiate itself from the other 'mons that can run similar sets to an equally proficient to better degree.
  • Centralization: Here we see the dreaded buzzword again but now it shall be built on the above two points. Centralization here would take everything that has been said above into account. In addition, it includes the following aspects:
    • One of (or both):
      • It would be disadvantageous to not use the Pokemon that is ban-worthy, to the point that it would be difficult to win a game regularly without it or
      • While not using the 'mon itself, in an attempt to prepare for it, checks and counters are used that become completely insufficient, niche or uncommon to the point of forcing the decision to either prepare for the ban-worthy Pokemon uniquely or the rest of the usual threats of the tier, as decided by the community at the time. This can include roles, Pokemon, or specific moves as well. An example that does not meet this would be having trouble facing a set that can be run on many different 'mons such as Contrary. Again, this plays back into the multidimensional and unique aspect
    • The Pokemon in question is able to excel in multiple and unique sets to the point that preparation for one leads to a loss against the other, or that a single counter, or multiple checks are insufficient in handling the Pokemon as a threat.
Ability Ban:
The power to set nearly any ability that a 'mon would prefer almost ideally, is the second most defining and important property of BH, so I will go through it next. Most of the logic will be similar to the above. An Ability should be considered for ban if:
  • It can either provide an inherent skill that is so good that it can be slapped onto nearly any 'mon, regardless of role, stat spread or moveset. This is true with Shadow Tag and Wonder Guard, which can work on offensive and defensive Pokemon alike, and as Classic Hackmons have proven, can be run on any Pokemon, be it an LC mon or Rayquaza-Mega
  • Or the ability can so augment the capabilities of the 'mon it is on that the set in question would be difficult or impossible to check or counter. This is similar to the last point on Pokemon ban above, but it is an important distinction, since this implies that the power originates from the ability and that the choice of 'mon, item and even moveset, is irrelevant. Pure Power/Huge Power and Parental Bond fall into this category
Move Ban:
As you likely have guessed, the logic for a move ban will be similar to what I've given already. What makes a move ban-worthy would be:
  • An attack that is overwhelmingly powerful to the point of there being no counters to it, or the counters are unreasonable to use, affect performance against the general meta (as decided by the players), niche or unusable.
  • A move (attack or status) that removes the emphasis on skill, planning and preparation and moves the outcome to forces not in control of the player.
  • The move can be run effectively without needing real synergy with the Pokemon itself, its ability, the rest of its moveset, item or any in-game condition.
  • Chatter and Evasion raising moves all fall into the above points. Even OHKO moves, without No Guard, would still retain the second and third properties by being a luck-based game of 30% chance for a free KO, with little regard to in-game constraints.
Item Ban:
While unprecedented and therefore difficult to make a guide for, I have included some initial thoughts about what would be needed to advocate an Item ban:
  • Similar to the point in Ability above, the hypothetical ban-worthy item would greatly augment a mon's offensive or defensive capabilities, to the point of reducing the game to a simple "do you have the item or not" question. No item falls in this category yet, but in my opinion, it'd be something to the tune of an Eviolite that works with any Pokemon or a Life Orb with no drawbacks
  • An item ban can also be considered if it allows Pokemon access to mechanics that have already been banned (see FAQ). Examples of this include Red Orb turning Groudon into Groudon-Primal, or Gengar receiving Shadow Tag through a manual Mega-Evolution. For this, the Pokemon with the item would have to be evaluated as if it were a new Pokemon ban, except the Ability and Item would obviously be preset.
Clauses:
Clauses should be reserved for complex cases where individual bans on any of the above would not successfully handle a ban-worthy strategy that is composed of several Pokemon, move(s), ability(ies) or any combination of them. Similar to everything covered so far, the strategy would have to be any or all of:
  • So dominant that there would be little to no checks for it
  • Remove the emphasis of the game from skill to outside forces such as luck or amount of time the battlers have (e.g. endless battle)
  • The player is forced to choose between preparing for this specific strategy at the cost of facing the usual meta at the time (as determined by the player base)
Clauses may also be used to limit instead of entirely remove a strategy, when it is deemed that the problem lies in it being exponentially more effective when repeated than if it were limited to one. -Ate and Ability Clause are good examples of this phenomenon.

The Endless Battle and Assist clauses are also good examples of why a clause may be needed (Assist extends beyond the move itself because the team has to follow a specific construction and there is no real counter for the move Assist in and of itself, but rather the whole strategy).

The exception that I shall keep, at this point in time, is that a clause will not be put for a complex situation that disallows specific Pokemon from having specific moves, items, abilities or any combination thereof, as I feel that it will open a rabbit-hole with no ending, with discussions on which Pokemon would need limiting, which sets should be considered, similarity of moves and so forth.


Conclusion
And that's it! Hopefully, I was able to cover most of what I have in mind from my side. I look forward to working with the community, which I myself am part of, in improving our meta! If there are any questions, refer to the FAQ, and if that is not sufficient, feel free to post your doubts in this thread or personally reach out to me.

Thanks
E4 Flint
Approved by The Immortal and Eevee General
The Immortal: "It is the most beautiful thing I've ever seen"
 
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E4 Flint

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Community Leader
Clause and Ban List:
(Where applicable, link to decision included)

Moves
  • Assist (Link)
  • Chatter (Link)
  • OHKO Moves
Abilities
  • Wonder Guard
  • Pure/Huge Power
  • Parental Bond (Link)
  • Protean (Link)
  • Shadow Tag/Arena Trap
  • Moody (Link)
Pokemon
  • Groudon Primal (Link)
  • Kyogre Primal (Link)
(Any of the above are bans on what is stated ONLY. This does NOT exclude the possibility to obtain any of the above in-battle. Primal Groudon through Reversion of a Groudon with Red Orb, Shadow Tag Gengar-Mega through a manual evolution, or similarly Salamence-Mega through evolution while having another -ate on the team, are all possible cases)

Clauses

  • Ability Clause: No more than two Pokemon with the same ability per team. (Link)
  • -Ate Clause: No more than one Pokemon with the ability Aerilate, Refrigerate or Pixilate per team (Link)
  • Endless Battle Clause: Forcing an endless battle is banned, similar to the rest of PS
  • Evasion Moves Clause: No moves that can increase Evasion are allowed. This does not include abilities or items that may modify Evasion passively such as Sand Veil or Brightpowder (Link)
 
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E4 Flint

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FAQ
Tl;Dr. Pokemon is not that serious.
I expect everyone making a decision about BH to be involved and intelligent, and if you can't be, then I probably will not consider your argument because it will likely be uninformed.

Is the guideline you posted like a checklist, and absolute?
No. I want to make it clear that I am not forcing you all to write a thesis and trying to match every point I have here. I wanted to just give my perspective for how I think bans should happen in BH going forward. Part of the problem - and also why it took so long to express exactly what I'm thinking - is trying to create a rigid outline for such a variable and multi-form meta, and I will undoubtedly not have covered every case imaginable. If you have something that clashes with what I have here, that's fine as long as you can substantiate it with sound logic and reasoning.

What does "determined by the player-base" mean?
I expect at least some evidence for arguments being backed up by what's been the general trend in the meta and replays or logs can be used to determine that. This is on the players' end to show. Even Chatter and Huge Power were not considered for a ban until they were widely popular and tested in the metagame.
In addition, actual activity is very important to me. I would prefer it if players make arguments after they have been playing in the same time frame consistently instead of basing all arguments on conjecture with their last game being played months or even years before. The latter can lead to dated misinformation or flawed arguments. A mixture of empirical and theoretical evidence would be ideal.
The discussion will ultimately be among and driven by the community; it is very unlikely a decision will be made in a court case of BH Community vs E4 Flint.

How will theorymons play into the discussion?
It's completely fine to include theorymon sets to highlight how multidimensional something can be but it should still be realistic to the general meta trends and not used as an argument in and of itself. Any mechanic can be made to look unstoppable in ideal conditions and a variable moveset in every match-up.

Why have you allowed access to banned mechanics through items such as Mega Evolution and Primal Reversion?
Having the item puts in a limitation on what can be run and must be analyzed separately with that implied, especially if a mechanic has already been banned. For example, Primal Groudon limited by Red Orb and Desolate Land has a completely different impact on the tier than having unchecked Primal Groudon in the tier.

How will the suspect process get started?
Once the community has a consensus (which includes myself), I shall put forward a vote similar to how it's been done in the past (see links by the banlist above) and if necessary, a suspect period will be put in place with specific requirements such as time, ranking and vote percentage, as determined by myself, the OM leaders and potentially you all, the community at large.

What happens when a new Generation or new base-game mechanics are put into place?
The community and I will analyze the new information and then I shall decide to keep or retest all the current bans on a case by case basis. However, if a new mechanic is put into place, all bans, and potentially the guideline itself, must be rectified, if needed, to remain consistent.

What if we want discussion of an unban or ban modification?
It would be a similar process of bringing it up in the thread here and providing a logical basis based on your own reasoning or my outline here and why the mechanic limitation needs to be changed. This can happen as a result of a new clause that was put in effect after the original ban or new mechanics.

Is there scope for a BH Council?
Possibly in the future, but at the moment it shall just be me.

Why should I listen to or read what you have to say?
Someone has to remain in charge and put into place some kind of outline because the previous system led to a lot of pointless bickering and throwing around of buzzwords. For better or for worse, that person is me, atm.
 
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E4 Flint

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Hey all. Sorry for taking so long to get this setup. It took a while to distill my thoughts into words without just being rambling.

Also, it is important to note that this thread will be used for suspect discussion only. Use the main Balanced Hackmons thread for general metagame discussion.

k thanks. Post away.
 
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Thanks for making this thread Flint, hopefully this can be the catalyst for a better, more balanced Balanced Hackmons. :) The guidelines mostly look good to me, I do have a couple of nitpicks but I'll make a post about that later, for now I just want to open up the discussion on a couple of potential suspects.
Sorry this is so long lol, I didn’t realise how big this was until after I wrote it oops ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

BH in its current form suffers from quite a few issues that prevent it from being the incredible metagame that it has the potential to be. Chief among these is a serious lack of variety; despite having vastly more teambuilding potential than just about any other OM, BH is stagnant; at high levels of play there is a remarkable lack of diversity not just in terms of the Pokemon used, but also in terms of team composition. Almost every successful current BH team I’ve seen follows a similar formula: 2-4 defensive mons, almost always with U-turn or a similar pivoting move, and 2-4 offensive nukes, usually including an –ate and very often a Protean, sometimes with an Imposter slotted in somewhere. Another huge issue with the tier was brought up by Rumors in this post: specifically, that the need to dedicate large amounts of your team to checking certain common threats not only makes teambuilding feel very cookie-cutter and limits the potential for teambuilding creativity, but also makes it very easy to lose to miscellaneous less common threats – the number of games I’ve lost to a random PH Kyogre, Contrary Ho-oh, Refrigerate M2X etc because my team just didn’t have room to run a counter is too many to count. This leads to some pretty serious match-up issues, where games are often won at team preview because one player has the random Spore Pixilate MDiancie or Sludge Bomb MGengar that just 6-0’s the other person’s team. Obviously this always has been and always will be an integral aspect of BH just due to the nature of the tier, but it’s severely exacerbated by the massive pressures on teambuilding in the current iteration of the BH meta. I feel that the root of the problem is the immense offensive pressure and utility that is provided by the the –ate abilities (Pixilate, Aerilate, Refrigerate) and Protean, and I think that if they were banned the metagame would benefit enormously.


The –ate abilities have been an integral feature of the BH metagame since the beginning of XY, and banning them would undoubtedly be an enormous shift in the metagame. However, I feel quite strongly that it would be a positive change, for a variety of reasons. The fundamental problem with –ate is the huge offensive versatility it provides. Any –ate mon with decent offensive stats is able to be both a fantastic revenge killer with Fake Out and Extreme Speed and an incredible wallbreaker with Boomburst. The issue with this is that an –ate mon can easily perform both of these roles with the same set, within the same match, while still having room to run moves to beat its counters; -ate mons are able to perform a greater diversity of roles with the same set than any other offensive mon in BH history. –Ate wasn’t nearly as much of an issue in the pre-EV limit meta; offensive mons were bulkier, making them harder to revenge kill, and walls could run full defensive EV’s on both sides of the spectrum, making –ate a lot easier to switch into. However, since the implementation of EV limit the tier has become much frailer, and in this environment a powerful mixed wallbreaker with very strong priority to pick off would-be revenge killers is just too difficult to reliably deal with without dedicating massive chunks of your team to it. Nothing can switch into –ate reliably besides very bulky, defensively invested resists (and I mean very bulky: uninvested Mega Metagross with base 80 HP / 110 SpDef is 2HK0’d by 0 Spa Life Orb Pixilate Xerneas Boomburst – and Xern is notably weaker than the common –ates!). –Ate Boomburst can 2HKO many of the bulkiest Pokemon in the game, including Giratina, Cresselia, Arceus, and Mega Audino. As well, things like Soundproof and Fur Coat Chansey can work as counters as well – regardless, the options for reliable –ate counters are very limited and not difficult for the –ate mon to beat through a coverage move or through the use of a move like Spore or Techno Blast. The net effect of this is that it is practically mandatory to run at least 2 solid checks to –ate, almost all of which are slow, passive mons. This is obviously hugely limiting for teambuilding, especially for stall and offense teams; due to its inability to run offensive checks, stall is necessitated to run multiple –ate switch ins, limiting its ability to check other threats, and the threat of –ate Extreme Speed forces offensive teams to run otherwise subpar moves like King’s Shield and passive, momentum-killing mons like Registeel. This is what results in the dominance of the team archetype I mentioned earlier, which I have come to call ‘pivot balance’; you need to run walls to switch into –ate, yet the offensive utility provided by –ate is too good to pass up. To avoid sacrificing momentum, the defensive mons have to run pivoting moves, which doubles as a means to get the –ate and other frail offensive mons in safely. It’s a team archetype that is not only able to solidly and reliably check many of the common threats in the metagame, but also take full advantage of their power, and it’s for this reason that it is so dominant at higher levels of play. What this all results in is a significant reduction of variety in the tier. The potency of pivot balance pushes most other team archetypes out of the meta, like stall or more traditional forms of offense. Most teams can’t afford to run too many mons that just lose to -ate, so a lot of formerly common defensive Pokemon like Cresselia, Yveltal, Mega Venusaur, Mega Scizor, Mega Aggron, and non-Fur Coat Chansey, which all struggle against –ate, have a lot of trouble finding room on teams. In addition, -ate completely outclasses just about every other revenge killer in the meta except for arguably Gale Wings, so other revenge killing/priority options, like Sucker Punch, Prankster Nature Power, Choice Scarf, non-ate Extreme Speed, and moves like Mach Punch and Bullet Punch are woefully unexplored. All in all, the –ate abilities are an enormously restrictive force in the metagame, limiting teambuilding and the overall diversity of the metagame in a very significant way.


When I talk to people about a potential –ate ban, most people bring up the point that it isn’t necessarily –ate as a whole that is broken, but rather just Mega Rayquaza and Mega Diancie, and that with a ban on these two Pokemon or a complex ban prohibiting their use alongside Aerilate and Pixilate respectively, that –ate wouldn’t be an issue. I feel that this is not the case, and that this viewpoint stems from the fact that MRay and MDiancie are by the far the two most common –ates. While MRay and MDiancie are undoubtedly the most powerful –ate abusers, they aren’t the only broken ones. –Ate was an issue in the pre-ORAS, post-EV limit metagame, when the most powerful abusers were non-Mega Rayquaza and the Kyurems, for most of the same reasons that they are now. Even after the –Ate Clause was implemented in an attempt to nerf –ate, the metagame still suffered from the same issues with centralisation and lack of variety that I mentioned in the previous paragraph. Rayquaza is not significantly weaker than MRay and MDiance, hitting almost all of the same 2HKO’s, and the Kyurems are both very powerful too (although admittedly they have less ability to go mixed; regardless they’re both still extremely potent). As I mentioned in the previous paragraph, the EV limit is what makes –ate broken; extremely powerful priority like –ate is much less of an issue when offensive mons can freely run full defensive EV’s, but with EV limit implemented they can’t afford to, and thus –ate has a much easier time revenge killing. As an example, offensive Xerneas in the pre-EV limit could comfortably take Refrigerate Kyurem-B’s Fake Out + Extreme Speed at decently high HP:

252+ Atk Icicle Plate Refrigerate Kyurem-B Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Xerneas: 334-394 (73.2 - 86.4%) (Double-Edge is approx. equivalent to Fake Out + Extreme Speed)

However, when it is no longer able to run 252 HP / 252 Def:

252+ Atk Icicle Plate Refrigerate Kyurem-B Double-Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Xerneas: 429-505 (109.1 - 128.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

This is an issue that existed before MRay and MDiancie, and would continue to exist if they were banned. Thus, the best alternative to an –ate ban is to either ban a bunch of Pokemon that aren’t otherwise broken, or complex ban –ate on like 5 Pokemon, which are both significantly less appealing options.


A concern that is often raised when discussing an –ate ban is that Mold Breaker sweepers like Mega Gengar will be too difficult to stop without the safety net that –ate Extreme Speed provides. This is a very valid concern, but I feel that even without –ate these sorts of sweepers will still be manageable. Mega Gengar is still solidly countered by Yveltal, Mega Audino, bulky Ho-oh, and probably some other Pokemon that I’m forgetting, and it still has the same issues that it always had of being very frail and thus struggling to find opportunities to switch in or set up, and its dependence on its item making it very susceptible to Trick and Knock Off. In addition, as I mentioned before there are plenty of other powerful priority options apart from –ate that may gain prominence if –ate leaves the meta. Sucker Punch, Gale Wings, non-ate Extreme Speed, and priority like Mach Punch and Ice Shard from Pokemon like M2X and Kyu-B are all potent options that can help deal with Mega Gengar and other Mold Breaker sweepers, and Prankster is always an option as well. In any case, if it does turn out that Mold Breaker sweepers are broken and that –ate is the only thing keeping them from running rampant through the tier, then they can be banned as well; something that is broken shouldn’t be kept in the metagame just because it keeps another broken threat in check.


The other thing that I feel is worthy of a ban in BH is Protean. I don’t really want to write another 1500 words about it, so I’ll keep this (relatively) short; Protean effectively gives a 50% boost to any move that does not share a type with the user, and this is absurdly powerful on Pokemon like the Mega Mewtwos and Mega Latios, which are ridiculously strong and are basically balanced only by their poor offensive typing. Protean mons are impossible to predict and have the freedom to run basically whatever coverage they want, completely unencumbered by their typing. It’s stupidly easy for a Protean to tailor its coverage to beat whatever it wants, and it’s obnoxiously difficult to switch into. On top of all this, Protean can run Judgment to beat Imposter and King’s Shield to beat most priority without sacrificing too much, making it effectively immune to the most common means of checking offensive threats. It’s almost completely impossible to predict what coverage a Protean is running, and if you don’t have an Imposter you often end up sacking things just to find out what you can wall it with. However, I’m not entirely sure what the best course of action is in regards to what should be banned. Protean is really dumb, but I don’t know if the fundamental issue is Protean itself or just the abusers; I’m positive that Protean is broken on the Mega Mewtwos, and possibly on Mega Latios, but I don’t know if that’s because Protean is broken or just because these mons are already ridiculous and Protean just pushes them over the edge. In any case, I haven’t seen/used Protean mons other than M2X/Y / MLatios nearly enough to really say with any degree of certainty that they’re broken. I haven’t seen much evidence that suggests that the Mega Mewtwos / MLati are broken without Protean either. I feel like the cleanest option is just a straight up Protean ban, but a complex ban of Protean + M2X / M2Y or a ban on M2X / M2Y themselves are reasonable options – I’m interested to know what other people’s opinions on this are.

Some thoughts I have on other things that should be looked at in the future:

MEGA RAYQUAZA: I kinda feel that even without Aerilate this thing might still be broken, the GW + TG set is really stupid, and physical GW, Contrary and Tinted Lens are all really difficult to deal with as well. It’s really hard to judge how powerful MRay would be in a post-ate meta seeing as a lot of the reason its other sets are so dangerous is because of how they lure in the counters to the Aerilate set, but I think it’s definitely one to keep an eye on as a potential future suspect, even if Aerilate is banned.

SLEEP CLAUSE: Most of my thoughts on this were summed up by other ppl in the discussion on it in the main BH thread a few weeks ago so I won’t bother writing up a big thing on it, but I’m 100% in favour of this – sleep spam is dumb af and would probably be even harder to deal with without –ate.

Thank you for reading!! i spent way too long writing this up lol
 

Lcass4919

The Xatu Warrior
tldr both posts. so expect a post very uneducated, uninformed, and completely nubby.

no but seriously, i agree with a lot of what mamp said(or from what flint told me about your post) and i just want to add on, i think protean and ates arent the ONLY things that are problems atm. but i feel like taking them on one step at a time is the best for our actions. protean is self explanatory, and im not really going to give any extra reasons for its banning. if you guys feel its banworthy, go ahead and talk about it. i dont have a lot of time to myself, so i cant really type these long ass posts all the time. :P

now, im not one to write a lot, so expect this to be a bit brief, but basically, how i feel about ates, is that...they aren't all broken. aerialate, and pixilate are both the two main culprets. while refridge is just tagging along confused, scared, and sad. refridgerate users are burdened with either no STAB, or a terrible defensive typing. while also having a pretty meh offensive typing for bh standards. (being walled by kyogre is never a good thing even now) of course, offensively its prowess is as good as pixilate and aerialate but even so, it has only 2 good abusers, both of which suffer from a meh defensive typing. and they both hit a pretty...bad speed tier. which brings me to my second point.

the abusers, yeah, pixie and aerialate have 1 good abuser each...and while refrig has two, both suffer quite a bit. kyurem b has good attack...but...okay spc attack...bad for bh standards. same with white for its special side. and as i previously mentioned. refridgerate burdens refridgerate with either no stab, or terrible defensive typing.

which brings me to my final point...the effect on the meta...would actually be a positive one if refrige stayed. lets be serious here. ates are important...they help keep offense in check. if we remove them who knows what effect it would have...well if we only ban the two problematic ones, and leave the one thats "not as bad" in the tier, i figure it wont do anything too bad to the meta, and while we will still have ates...it will be a LOT easier to prepare for refridge then it is to prepare for all three. now im not saying down the line we wont get some ridiculous refridgerate user. but im saying, as for the current meta in its current state, i think refridgerate should be saved from the "-ate" ban. or at least, put on a seperate ban after the two are suspected.
 
I'd repost my post, but Mamp linked it anyway, so that saves me some trouble. Either way, it still stands.


Lcass4919 As for Refrigerate... I'd have to disagree it should be left alone. Diancie and Mray are the primary picks because 1) They're the best mixed offensives -ates. And 2) You only get one -ate, so you're better getting one that can have the most impact in a single set rather than getting walled. If you removed just those two, Kyurem, Xerneas, normal-Ray, Yveltal, and more off-meta picks like Ho-Oh and Mewtwo would all just refill the missing gap, just as they did prior to ORAS. With Kyurem-B being one of, if not the most, prominent again, mainly facing competition from Xerneas and, to a lesser extent, Yveltal, who were the prime Pixel and Air users previously.

Second, Kyu-B didn't have issues with Kyogre since its primary coverage move was Bolt Strike, which would OHKO most Kyogres who were not EVing against it. And even if they were, they couldn't stay in. Kyu-B's main checks were pretty much the same as Diancie's and Mray's, with just a few additions on the physical spectrum such as Maggron. Although it could sometimes bypass these with a surprise special move since, while it doesn't have the most impressive special attack, it's still respectable and enough to get past some of its checks. Meanwhile, Kyu-W would run stuff like Seed Flare for Kyogre and Secret Sword for stuff like Chansey and Registeel. And often still had Extreme Speed because the -ate and STAB boost made it strong enough to reliably pick off most of whatever Boomburst failed to kill.

And yeah, while their defensive typings leave something to be desired, keep in mind this typing gets stronger if Pixilate is banned and Kyurem are both significantly bulkier than Diancie or Mega-Ray. I mean, they can actually take neutral hits from decent attackers, unlike their usual competition.


Related, but more directed in general rather than at Lcass, but I don't feel complex banning Diancie and Mray from -ate would help much. It'd ease pressure on defensive Pokemon, which would be a plus, but, if I recall from doing calculations, stuff like Xerneas can comfortable one-shot most frail, offensive Pokemon with Extreme Speed and prevent them from ever switching in manually with Boomburst. There's a ton of potentially interesting Pokemon, like Zekrom, MSceptile, Mabsol, and Mmanectric, that don't get to see the light of day because of that base power ~125 Extreme Speed just waiting for them to show their faces.

Plus, -ate is already in an awkward complex clause situation. The fact that it already has clauses just for it suggests, to me, that it's going to continue being problematic until removed or having so many complex clauses that gut it to the point of being unplayable.


MAMP For Protean, don't forget about Mega-Ray and Regular-Ray if you just remove Mewtwos and Latios. I honestly am not sure why Mega-Ray doesn't Protean more often since it has the mixed offenses to do it, just less speed. Also... Latias. Gotta keep an eye on both twins.


...well, that came out longer than expected...
 
I am just gonna drop the consideration of STAB + -ate into the discussion once more
With the lack of stab, fake speed, boomburst still become viable options to run as they provide coverage and revenge kill options, however, they become less powerful in terms of being the pure harbringers of destruction they currently are.
You're still given ability to gain 30% power + nice coverage type for your mon, but without the stab bonus, it won't be as dreadful to scream "REGISTEELREGISTEEL" all over, but it would still certainly kill those +2 gengars and +3 rays.

Granted, it might nerf them too much and drop the usage for them, but it wouldn't outright make em useless as mons like mega mewtwos could potentially still milk use from them for he coverage and priority.

It could potentially be an easy way to handle -ates.

I've also had lot of input in the main topic for sleep clause and I think it should be something to take a looksie for.
 

AWailOfATail

viva la darmz
I've encountered successful teams without some of the most "centralizing" parts of the metagame. Imposter Chansey is always nice, but not entirely necessary. Shedinja isn't too essential. Mega-Ray certainly isn't on my current team, and neither is Diancie. Defensively, Registeel and Giratina come to mind, but once again, it's not uncommon to come across a team without them.

However, it seems like -ates (whether STAB or not) are very necessary to have a successful team. They check many offensive threats and can power through many defensive threats without much thought or strategy to their play. In fact, despite running stall, I do in fact have an -ate user simply because of other -ates. It's very difficult to actually counter -ates because they can simply say, "hey let's run Iron Plate Judgment because of Audino-Mega" and they're still as successful as before.

I'm going to wait for more ladder stats to really delve into "What's common?" but I figured some opinions are better than no opinions. I know ladder stats aren't the best example for many people, but it's all we've got to actually see what's the center of the meta.
 
It was suggested that I repost this here. So, since the idea has been floating around, I'll copypasta.

I already basically said this in the main thread, so not repeating it there, but I don't like STAB -ate ban because we already have an -ate clause as is. It would be fine if -ate was treated like any other ability presently, but layering clauses upon clauses to try to keep something in the meta in some form seems, if not pointless, at least silly. I don't see a reason to try to gut -ate and leave it in rather than just remove it.

Plus it'd only really ease pressure on defensive Pokemon. Pixie Mray would still slaughter frail offensive threats, for example.

Also, because I feel it's relevant, lemme repost some old calculations using an older common -ate. It's slightly out of date since stuff like Mega-Bro didn't exist but, I still feel the vast majority of it is relevant. But the numbers haven't changed otherwise, and most of this stuff is still meta.


200 Atk Pixilate Xerneas Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Regigigas: 153-180 (36 - 42.4%) -- 0.9% chance to 3HKO after Poison Heal

200 SpA Pixilate Xerneas Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Regigigas: 265-313 (62.5 - 73.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal

200 Atk Pixilate Xerneas Extreme Speed vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 105-124 (27.4 - 32.4%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

200 SpA Pixilate Xerneas Boomburst vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Cresselia: 190-225 (49.7 - 58.9%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO

200 Atk Pixilate Xerneas Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Kyogre: 139-165 (34.4 - 40.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

200 SpA Pixilate Xerneas Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Kyogre: 144-171 (35.6 - 42.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

200 Atk Pixilate Xerneas Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Kyogre: 180-213 (44.5 - 52.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Poison Heal

200 SpA Pixilate Xerneas Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Kyogre: 216-255 (53.4 - 63.1%) -- 82.4% chance to 2HKO after Poison Heal

200 Atk Pixilate Xerneas Extreme Speed vs. 4 HP / 252 Def Lugia: 109-129 (30.7 - 36.4%) -- 54.3% chance to 3HKO

200 SpA Pixilate Xerneas Boomburst vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Lugia: 153-181 (43.2 - 51.1%) -- 5.1% chance to 2HKO

200 Atk Pixilate Xerneas Extreme Speed vs. 4 HP / 252 Def Xerneas: 135-160 (34.2 - 40.6%) -- 100% chance to 4HKO after Poison Heal

200 SpA Pixilate Xerneas Boomburst vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Xerneas: 231-273 (58.6 - 69.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal

200 Atk Pixilate Xerneas Extreme Speed vs. 4 HP / 252 Def Mega Scizor: 51-61 (18 - 21.6%) -- possible 5HKO

200 SpA Pixilate Xerneas Boomburst vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Mega Scizor: 114-134 (40.4 - 47.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

200 Atk Pixilate Xerneas Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Aggron: 32-38 (9.3 - 11%) -- possibly the worst move ever

200 SpA Pixilate Xerneas Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Aggron: 174-204 (50.5 - 59.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

200 Atk Pixilate Xerneas Extreme Speed vs. 4 HP / 252 Def Aegislash-Shield: 49-58 (18.7 - 22.1%) -- possible 5HKO

200 SpA Pixilate Xerneas Boomburst vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 85-101 (32.4 - 38.5%) -- 98.7% chance to 3HKO

200 Atk Pixilate Xerneas Extreme Speed vs. 4 HP / 252 Def Darmanitan-Z: 63-75 (17.8 - 21.3%) -- possible 5HKO

200 SpA Pixilate Xerneas Boomburst vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Darmanitan-Z: 110-130 (31.2 - 36.9%) -- 77.6% chance to 3HKO

200 Atk Pixilate Xerneas Extreme Speed vs. 4 HP / 252 Def Registeel: 49-58 (16.2 - 19.2%) -- possible 6HKO

200 SpA Pixilate Xerneas Boomburst vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Registeel: 85-101 (28.1 - 33.4%) -- 0% chance to 3HKO

200 Atk Pixilate Xerneas Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 39-46 (10.1 - 11.9%) -- possible 9HKO

200 SpA Pixilate Xerneas Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Heatran: 68-81 (17.6 - 20.9%) -- possible 5HKO



200 Atk Xerneas Thousand Arrows vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Aggron: 74-88 (21.5 - 25.5%) -- 0.5% chance to 4HKO

200 SpA Xerneas Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Aggron: 230-272 (66.8 - 79%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

200 SpA Xerneas Thousand Arrows vs. 4 HP / 252 Def Aegislash-Shield: 112-134 (42.7 - 51.1%) -- 4.7% chance to 2HKO

200 SpA Xerneas Earth Power vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 112-134 (42.7 - 51.1%) -- 4.7% chance to 2HKO

200 SpA Xerneas Thousand Arrows vs. 4 HP / 252 Def Darmanitan-Z: 146-174 (41.4 - 49.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

200 SpA Xerneas Earth Power vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Darmanitan-Z: 146-174 (41.4 - 49.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

200 SpA Xerneas Thousand Arrows vs. 4 HP / 252 Def Registeel: 112-134 (37 - 44.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

200 SpA Xerneas Earth Power vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Registeel: 112-134 (37 - 44.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

200 Atk Xerneas Thousand Arrows vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 364-432 (94.3 - 111.9%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

200 SpA Xerneas Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Heatran: 364-432 (94.3 - 111.9%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

(1k Arrows' damage was calculateded by picking Earthquake and setting its base power to 90.)



Keep in mind, that's 52 points short of full investment, a suboptimal EV spread, neutral nature, no items, no hazards and no boosting, coming off of 131 (Special) Attack, which is good, but by no means impressive by BH standards.
 
-ates are simply too powerful. Problem is the only mandatory move is Extreme Speed (Fake Out can be replaced by King's Shield and Boomburst by Techno Blast), so they can mix and match moves. Abusing Extreme Speed and a STAB nuke leaves them with very few counters. However, -ates have usually a free slot, and they have the potential to throw off any potential counter:
  • Magma Storm takes out the bulky Steel-types that are usually used to wall -ates, and Sturdinja with prediction. Flash Fire Steel-types wall these, as well as Fur Coat Chansey.
  • Precipice Blades / Thousand Arrows / Earth Power deal with bulky Steel-types in a similar way as Magma Storm, however, they bypass Flash Fire only to lose to the much rarer Levitate (not even Levitate is safe if Thousand Arrows). In exchange, they lose to Sturdinja. Fur Coat Chansey also walls these.
  • Spore allows them to break past through pretty much everything without Magic Bounce, Safety Goggles or Poison Heal, including Fur Coat Chansey and some variants of the usual Steel-types. They lose to Sturdinja and extremely bulky Spore-immune resists.
  • Close Combat / High Jump Kick throw off bulky Steels and Fur Coat Chansey and can't be prevented with any ability. However, Aegislash in particular walls the Flying / Fairy / Ice + Fighting combo, as well as the usual Sturdinja.
  • Judgment can give -ates any extra coverage (Fire, Ground, Fighting, even Poison or Steel for Mega Audino, basically, any coverage that can help you take out a wall) while making Imposter easily walled by your own Steel-types. Sturdinja is the only universal counter to these, as they can virtually run any Plate they want.
  • Soundproof is also a somewhat common way to deal with -ates, but then Techno Blast variants beat them.
As you see, there's no universal -ate counter, which basically means you have to dedicate two slots to it while the rest of the BH meta overwhelms you as you can't cover everything with 4 moveslots. The closest thing to a 100% -ate counter is a Flash Fire Aegislash with Safety Goggles, which can still lose to Ground or even Ghost coverage. Imposter is a problem with -ates, but they're not difficult to Imposterproof as they're beaten by something no matter what. RegenVest Registeel also tends to do well against -ates as it has enough bulk to tank coverage moves, but loses to Spore.
Also, I disagree with a complex ban. STAB + -ate ban would not change much. For example, Mega Ray has a lure Pixilate set that can take out Giratina and Mega Tyranitar, two would-be checks (Giratina is already 2HKOed by Aerilate if Sky Plate tho).

Protean is also insanely difficult to deal with, but to me -ate is a worse issue rn.
 

Funbot28

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I am not the greatest BH player to say the least, but I would like to leave some input on a necessary implementation ...

I really do believe that a Sleep Clause should be implemented in the tier, the amount of matches I played that I felt that I was at a disadvantage for not carrying either a Safety Goggles/Magic Bounce/Grass-type/PH user in order to deal with Spore is quite insane (however Magic Bounce and PH are common and nice abilities to run for other reasons than countering sleep, and Safety Googles and grass types don't protect against Dark Void). The thing that bothers me about sleep is that any offensive mon can just slap on a sleep inducing move that limits the effectiveness of some of its checks and counters (ie: Mega Rayquaza to Fur Coat Chansey), naturally this happens in standard play also but the fact that it can be done repeatedly in Bh is what pushes it over the edge imo. I would like to address the three points reasoning a implementation for a clause:

So dominant that there would be little to no checks for it
This may not be true per say when it comes to sleep as counterplay does exist like I mentioned previously, but the fact that it is so centralizing and demands defensive and stall teams to run one of the following options to deal with it is a little too much imo. There are countless teams in which I see Safety Goggles Mega Audino/Magic Bounce Registeel/PH Giratina and so on, and which they are forced to not carry more reliable items like Leftovers or Choice items (similar to Shed Shell in OU pre S-Tag ban). This type of centralization and saturation to counterplay this strategy is not a healthy element for the BH metagame in my eyes.

Remove the emphasis of the game from skill to outside forces such as luck or amount of time the battlers have (e.g. endless battle)
This also can apply to Sleep as most offensive mons rely on how many sleep turns the victim is forced to endure so that they can either weaken down the mon tremendously, setup on them, or bring in the appropriate check/counter of the victim. It really grants the abuser the flexibility and freedom to have at least 2-3 guaranteed "free" turns to do whatever they please if the opponent decides to not switch out (but in any case they can just put to sleep another mon with the current restrictions). It can render matches dependant on how many sleep turns the abuser is rewarded to do whatever they want and can be repeatedly done several times throughout the match. Another unhealthy element in my eyes.

The player is forced to choose between preparing for this specific strategy at the cost of facing the usual meta at the time (as determined by the player base)
So this is where I feel Sleep really applies the most. If your opponent does not decide to prepare for sleep at all when teambuilding (which is almost necessary at this point of the meta), they would be at a huge disadvantage. Many people would say "well in BH its natural to be needing to prepare for many threats like Imposter Chansey, Sturdinja, Aerilate Mega Ray, etc...) but in this case the move can be repetitively seen throughout more than one pokemon, which always tends to force the opponent to guess and determine when the sleep move would be abused. So its not like once Sturdinja is taken out that a stress is relieved off your shoulders as you can see Spore/Dark Void on more than one pokemon in this case. The stress and aggressive nature of this move seems to prolong throughout the majority of the match, leaving players needing to at least have more than one answer to it. This really is what makes it restrict teambuilding in a sense.

Tl;DR: Sleep is restricting teambuilding and a clause should be implemented in BH.

P.S I would also like to see a vote on a possible global -ate ban, than we can start discussing Mega Ray after one if its prime sets is taken away from it (althogh there are plenty of other ones).
 
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If we're going to ban the -Ates, also ban Mega Rayquaza. Pixilate/Refrigerate is one of the few reliable counters for it.
 
I am not the greatest BH player to say the least, but I would like to leave some input on a necessary implementation ...

I really do believe that a Sleep Clause should be implemented in the tier, the amount of matches I played that I felt that I was at a disadvantage for not carrying either a Safety Goggles/Magic Bounce/Grass-type/PH user in order to deal with Spore is quite insane (however Magic Bounce and PH are common and nice abilities to run for other reasons than countering sleep, and Safety Googles and grass types don't protect against Dark Void). The thing that bothers me about sleep is that any offensive mon can just slap on a sleep inducing move that limits the effectiveness of some of its checks and counters (ie: Mega Rayquaza to Fur Coat Chansey), naturally this happens in standard play also but the fact that it can be done repeatedly in Bh is what pushes it over the edge imo. I would like to address the three points reasoning a implementation for a clause:


This may not be true per say when it comes to sleep as counterplay does exist like I mentioned previously, but the fact that it is so centralizing and demands defensive and stall teams to run one of the following options to deal with it is a little too much imo. There are countless teams in which I see Safety Goggles Mega Audino/Magic Bounce Registeel/PH Giratina and so on, and which they are forced to not carry more reliable items like Leftovers or Choice items (similar to Shed Shell in OU pre S-Tag ban). This type of centralization and saturation to counterplay this strategy is not a healthy element for the BH metagame in my eyes.


This also can apply to Sleep as most offensive mons rely on how many sleep turns the victim is forced to endure so that they can either weaken down the mon tremendously, setup on them, or bring in the appropriate check/counter of the victim. It really grants the abuser the flexibility and freedom to have at least 2-3 guaranteed "free" turns to do whatever they please if the opponent decides to not switch out (but in any case they can just put to sleep another mon with the current restrictions). It can render matches dependant on how many sleep turns the abuser is rewarded to do whatever they want and can be repeatedly done several times throughout the match. Another unhealthy element in my eyes.


So this is where I feel Sleep really applies the most. If your opponent does not decide to prepare for sleep at all when teambuilding (which is almost necessary at this point of the meta), they would be at a huge disadvantage. Many people would say "well in BH its natural to be needing to prepare for many threats like Imposter Chansey, Sturdinja, Aerilate Mega Ray, etc...) but in this case the move can be repetitively seen throughout more than one pokemon, which always tends to force the opponent to guess and determine when the sleep move would be abused. So its not like once Sturdinja is taken out that a stress is relieved off your shoulders as you can see Spore/Dark Void on more than one pokemon in this case. The stress and aggressive nature of this move seems to prolong throughout the majority of the match, leaving players needing to at least have more than one answer to it. This really is what makes it restrict teambuilding in a sense.

Tl;DR: Sleep is restricting teambuilding and a clause should be implemented in BH.

P.S I would also like to see a vote on a possible global -ate ban, than we can start discussing Mega Ray after one if its prime sets is taken away from it (althogh there are plenty of other ones).
My only concern about a Sleep Clause in BH is that sleep is a common way to Imposterproof w/e, and limiting sleep would make Imposter EVEN MORE centralizing, which I wouldn't like tbh.
Furthermore, unlike -ates and Protean, sleep does have surfire checks (Magic Guard + Orb and Poison Heal come to mind) and Poison Heal isn't even a niche ability.
I'm not fully opposed to Sleep Clause tho, in fact I'm pretty neutral about it. I just feel there are worse problems in BH that should be addressed first (as they have NO true counters), -ate and Protean.
I agree that sleep removes the element of skill and sleep applies even more pressure on teambuilding, and it is already really hard to prepare for everything rn.
 
If we're going to ban the -Ates, also ban Mega Rayquaza. Pixilate/Refrigerate is one of the few reliable counters for it.
Megaray will suffer a serious reduction in overall power with the removal of Airelate. So, it's hard to say if it'd become signifcantly weaker, about the same, or stronger after an -ate ban. Plus, you can always just Ice Shard it if you really need super-effective priority to kill it.

Or hit it neutrally. It is pretty frail, after all.


My only concern about a Sleep Clause in BH is that sleep is a common way to Imposterproof w/e, and limiting sleep would make Imposter EVEN MORE centralizing, which I wouldn't like tbh.
Furthermore, unlike -ates and Protean, sleep does have surfire checks (Magic Guard + Orb and Poison Heal come to mind) and Poison Heal isn't even a niche ability.
I'm not fully opposed to Sleep Clause tho, in fact I'm pretty neutral about it. I just feel there are worse problems in BH that should be addressed first (as they have NO true counters), -ate and Protean.
I agree that sleep removes the element of skill and sleep applies even more pressure on teambuilding, and it is already really hard to prepare for everything rn.

Most checks aren't surefire. Bounce is beaten by Moldy Sleep, Lum by Knock Off regardless of Harvest, Safety by Knock Off and Dark Void, Poison Heal and Magic Guard + Orb by Entrainment or getting Knocked Off before the orb triggers, Magic Coat requires prediction. Insomnia is a hard stop, but nobody uses it. Electric and Fairy Terrain are not used since they are bad moves. And nobody uses Restalk.

Imposters can run Safety Goggles anyway, meaning sleep isn't a surefire way to check them regardless.
 
Megaray will suffer a serious reduction in overall power with the removal of Airelate. So, it's hard to say if it'd become signifcantly weaker, about the same, or stronger after an -ate ban. Plus, you can always just Ice Shard it if you really need super-effective priority to kill it.
There's still Gale Wings tho, which is insanely difficult to deal with as well.

Anyway, we'll have to see how the meta would evolve after a hypothetical -ate ban to really make a decision about it.
 
I don't know if this will fit in, but I think there is a clear problem with putting sturdy on shedninja
The only way that it can be countered is to put a -poisoned or a -burned effect on it, and this may or may not happen, as many people try to play with extremely powerful moves, as far as I have seen
I tried using it myself, and giving it a lum berry, recycle, and moves with high pp like quick attack, shadow sneak, aqua jet etc. allows for stalling the game for so long that the opponent forfeits out of boredom.
 

sin(pi)

lucky n bad
I don't know if this will fit in, but I think there is a clear problem with putting sturdy on shedninja
The only way that it can be countered is to put a -poisoned or a -burned effect on it, and this may or may not happen, as many people try to play with extremely powerful moves, as far as I have seen
I tried using it myself, and giving it a lum berry, recycle, and moves with high pp like quick attack, shadow sneak, aqua jet etc. allows for stalling the game for so long that the opponent forfeits out of boredom.
From the Shedinja BH analysis (http://www.smogon.com/dex/xy/pokemon/shedinja/bh/):
"Strategies include Mold Breaker, which becomes an almost infallible way of dealing with Shedinja if paired with Pursuit. Other methods include entry hazards such as Stealth Rock and Toxic Spikes, status infliction, partial trapping moves, Rocky Helmet and Spiky Shield, and damage-dealing weather conditions such as sand and hail."

There's a lot of ways of beating Shed - off the top of my head, Leech Seed and Entrainment (and moves to that effect) also kill it, while stuff like Koff cripples it.


I'm not necessarily saying Shedinja is healthy for the metagame (I have no opinion on it, frankly), but it's not unbeatable by any means.
 

InfernapeTropius11

get on my level
I don't know if this will fit in, but I think there is a clear problem with putting sturdy on shedninja
The only way that it can be countered is to put a -poisoned or a -burned effect on it, and this may or may not happen, as many people try to play with extremely powerful moves, as far as I have seen
I tried using it myself, and giving it a lum berry, recycle, and moves with high pp like quick attack, shadow sneak, aqua jet etc. allows for stalling the game for so long that the opponent forfeits out of boredom.
There are soooo many ways to beat Sturdy Shedinja. Mold Breaker Pursuit is the most consistent, but Knock Off + Status, Leech Seed, entry hazards, Sandstorm, Hail, partial trapping (such as Infestation or Magma Storm), Spiky Shield, and Rocky Helmet all kill it as well of things that are at least somewhat viable. It's not too hard to fit at least one of these on your team, and while people may say it is centralizing to have to do so, well, you have to carry counters to every top threat in every meta--BH is no different.
 
There are soooo many ways to beat Sturdy Shedinja. Mold Breaker Pursuit is the most consistent, but Knock Off + Status, Leech Seed, entry hazards, Sandstorm, Hail, partial trapping (such as Infestation or Magma Storm), Spiky Shield, and Rocky Helmet all kill it as well of things that are at least somewhat viable. It's not too hard to fit at least one of these on your team, and while people may say it is centralizing to have to do so, well, you have to carry counters to every top threat in every meta--BH is no different.
I found that
Shedninja@lum berry
with sturdy
Recycle
Endeavor
Foresight
Toxic
is very common and dangerous
not to mention
Blissey@quick claw
with _____ Ability
and Final Gambit is powerful as well
I agree that trapping moves like magma storm, infestation can be dangerous to the Shedninja, i have found that it isn't all to common
From the Shedinja BH analysis (http://www.smogon.com/dex/xy/pokemon/shedinja/bh/):
"Strategies include Mold Breaker, which becomes an almost infallible way of dealing with Shedinja if paired with Pursuit. Other methods include entry hazards such as Stealth Rock and Toxic Spikes, status infliction, partial trapping moves, Rocky Helmet and Spiky Shield, and damage-dealing weather conditions such as sand and hail."

There's a lot of ways of beating Shed - off the top of my head, Leech Seed and Entrainment (and moves to that effect) also kill it, while stuff like Koff cripples it.


I'm not necessarily saying Shedinja is healthy for the metagame (I have no opinion on it, frankly), but it's not unbeatable by any means.
Usually, but not always, entry hazards are useless, as Shedninja is often used as the opening poke
also as i mentioned before, recycle + lum berry can counter status
 
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Since when is hazards not good?
Also if you read carefully you will notice that all the ways he mentioned to kill shedinja bypasses lum berry + recycle.

Also no offence but unless you are using a troll team you shouldn't use final gambit blissey.
 

The Immortal

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Just to clarify, your Elo is at least 1500 when you're saying "the opponent forfeits out of boredom" and all these other stuff?

There should be a rule in this thread that you need at least 1500 Elo or something :|

(Elo is your rating on Pokemon Showdown; what you see at the end of a battle and in /rank)
 
Since when is hazards not good?
Also if you read carefully you will notice that all the ways he mentioned to kill shedinja bypasses lum berry + recycle.

Also no offence but unless you are using a troll team you shouldn't use final gambit blissey.
you could also use safety goggles + safeguard
I said hazards are not good because the people are opening with shedninja, and not switching out, try to read the whole sentence
 

InfernapeTropius11

get on my level
I found that
Shedninja@lum berry
with sturdy
Recycle
Endeavor
Foresight
Toxic
is very common and dangerous
not to mention
Blissey@quick claw
with _____ Ability
and Final Gambit is powerful as well
I agree that trapping moves like magma storm, infestation can be dangerous to the Shedninja, i have found that it isn't all to common

Usually, but not always, entry hazards are useless, as Shedninja is often used as the opening poke
also as i mentioned before, recycle + lum berry can counter status
you could also use safety goggles + safeguard
I said hazards are not good because the people are opening with shedninja, and not switching out, try to read the whole sentence
Gonna address all these posts. First of all, that's NOT a good Shedinja set. You should be running something along the lines of lvl 1 Shedinja @ Lum Berry w/ Recycle/Baton Pass/Endeavour/Whirlpool and zero hp/def/spd ivs. Your current set is walled by Magic Bounce or Poison Heal Giratina, two of the most common abilities on one of the most common mons in the meta, as well as Aegislash. They can come in, then pivot out before you Endavour, even if you got Foresight up. While it may be common, Sheddy is best used as a reasonably reliable pivot and is only dangerous to unprepared teams (see my previous post for how to EASILY prepare for it). If you have found that Shedinja counters aren't too common then you most likely have not played many good BH players. Sure loads of people lead with Sheddy, but you can easily counter that by leading with your Sheddy counter :/ Phazing in the form of Whirlwind and Dragon Tail are also reasonably common, so Sheddy can be forced out and then you can get hazards up if you have no other way of dealing with it. Safeguard only works for 5 turns, and in the turn you set it up, if you get outsped and statused you're still fainting as Safeguard wasn't up to prevent status yet.

As for the Blissey set, the Final Gambit set is not only not very good, but you should at least run Scarf and Scrappy if you're running it. That said, don't run it, there are so many better things you can do with that team slot and you only get max 1 kill (many times not even if you get bopped by strong priority/a strong attack from a faster mon).

As for your elo rating, TI brought that up to show that you generally need to be in the high ladder (where the good players are) in order to have an educated opinion on the meta (that's the reason not just anyone can vote in suspects--you must reach a certain elo/COIL ranking to show that you are knowledgeable about and good at the meta).
 

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