I don't know if you are that high on the ladder yet, but giratina is literally in 90% of every competitive teams. If you lead off with it and never switch, someone can just infinitely switch between 2 ghosts until you switch. Usually Giratinas carry hazards and whirlwind so it can just set up and phaze you out. Also shedinjas pretty much always run baton pass/whirlpool/endeavour/recycle. Foresight, safeguard, and toxic is simply just bad options on shedinja.
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Balanced Hackmons Suspects and Bans
- Thread starter E4 Flint
- Start date
MAMP
MAMP!
The Immortal I'd rather not have an ELO requirement to post in here, that seems really elitist and in any case ELO is a pretty arbitrary means of measuring a players skill. What would be good is if this thread is more strictly moderated, and unproductive/uninformed posts are deleted.
While I personally dislike Sheddy, it doesn't quite fit the criteria of being suspect worthy. It needs a lot of team support to be used safely at mid or higher skill levels and it only really does one predictable thing. One of its biggest checks is also one of the most common (Giratina). One of its biggest counters, Moldy Gengar, is also probably the best Mold Breaker user. And then if you packed the wrong item, it sometimes just flat-out dies against some teams. ("Oh, you brought a Lum Berry? How cute, I'm playing a Sand team.") Additionally, Sheddy sweeps tend to also only happen on low ladder.
Leading with Sheddy and never switching is a noob mistake that happens in low elo since people there don't know how to deal with it. Personally, if my opponent has a Sheddy, I'll often lead with something that has a damaging pivot move and pivot to a Ghost. If it's Sheddy, I'm safe. If it's Illusion Belly Drum Slaking, then I can bring in my check/counter for basically free. Another common mistake is making your whole team walled by your Sheddy. ...which, causes it to be walled by all opposing Sheddies.
It's a nice sentiment, but that'd exclude some people who are currently active on the ladder but are very knowledgable about the tier. I mean, I rarely play right now because I don't feel like wading through low ladder to get to good/fun opponents since the last reset nuked all my alts, but I don't think anyone would argue I don't know what I'm talking about. (Especially since the meta has remained pretty much the same since I was last active.) And I'm sure I'm not the only one. I mean, if Adrian popped up in here and started talking about stall, we would all listen, even though I've not seen him in quite a while.
Leading with Sheddy and never switching is a noob mistake that happens in low elo since people there don't know how to deal with it. Personally, if my opponent has a Sheddy, I'll often lead with something that has a damaging pivot move and pivot to a Ghost. If it's Sheddy, I'm safe. If it's Illusion Belly Drum Slaking, then I can bring in my check/counter for basically free. Another common mistake is making your whole team walled by your Sheddy. ...which, causes it to be walled by all opposing Sheddies.
It's a nice sentiment, but that'd exclude some people who are currently active on the ladder but are very knowledgable about the tier. I mean, I rarely play right now because I don't feel like wading through low ladder to get to good/fun opponents since the last reset nuked all my alts, but I don't think anyone would argue I don't know what I'm talking about. (Especially since the meta has remained pretty much the same since I was last active.) And I'm sure I'm not the only one. I mean, if Adrian popped up in here and started talking about stall, we would all listen, even though I've not seen him in quite a while.
I like having some sort of requirement to post. The whole point of suspect tests is to prove you have a certain amount of skill, so why shouldn't it apply to this thread as well? Since when is being elitist on a competitive Pokemon site a bad thing? At the very least we should blacklist the topics of sturdinja and imposter. Both have been discussed ad nauseam and clearly don't fit the criteria for banning, and it would help eliminate poor discussions that derail more important issues like -ate and protean.
How does one determine whether an individual is uninformed? Ladder rating is the only objective means of doing so.
I disagree. If you're not active in the metagame then you shouldn't be participating in an important discussion about it.
In that case I am probably not qualified to be arguing for this ...Thank you, because your the only one who is actually being helpful and explaining it to me
MAMP
MAMP!
I'm saying that should be judged on a post by post basis; individual bad posts should be deleted, regardless of who posted them - being low on the ladder does not exclude someone from being able to make a good post, just as being high on the ladder does not necessarily mean that someone will make good posts. If we restrict the ability to post in this thread to only a small subset of players, we'll end up with an echo chamber; it's important to get a wide range of viewpoints. In any case, ELO is a pretty poor indicator of a players skill - the BH ladder is notoriously bad, and I've seen plenty of mediocre players around the top of the ladder. As well, there are plenty of experienced, accomplished players who just don't like to ladder much at the moment who might fall below whatever ELO threshold is chosen. In addition, any ELO ranking chosen will be completely arbitrary. Say we choose 1500 ELO as the lower limit, that implies that someone at 1500 ELO is better than someone at 1490 by a large enough degree that they have the right to post in this thread and the person at 1490 does not, which seems kinda dumb to me.
Ok, I see that discusion about Shedinja, how broken this pokemon Is (or not)...
I think we need discution about one of the most broken Ground move: Thousand Arrows.
This move completly remove value from Levitate and completly crush Flying type.
How many times your pokemon who normally doesn't care about Ground, have that second type weak to Ground (or take normal damage), and becomes dead after switch into that move?
When we try create bulky Steel wall (M-Aggron for example), we usually run Flash Fire or Fur Coat (Regenerator can be usefull here as well on Assault Vest set, Magic Bounce ìs also handle). Levitate isn't even option because this move.
Only two types can take halved damage from Ground: Bug, and Grass type. Only TWO. Flying lose that immunity thanks for Thousand Arrows, so... one type definitly becomes really broken in this meta...
Only one other type, what have similar situation is Dragon type... BUT...
Dragons can't counter more than one type - themselfs. And can't touch Faries...
And even with 90 power still this move hurt...
I think we need discution about one of the most broken Ground move: Thousand Arrows.
This move completly remove value from Levitate and completly crush Flying type.
How many times your pokemon who normally doesn't care about Ground, have that second type weak to Ground (or take normal damage), and becomes dead after switch into that move?
When we try create bulky Steel wall (M-Aggron for example), we usually run Flash Fire or Fur Coat (Regenerator can be usefull here as well on Assault Vest set, Magic Bounce ìs also handle). Levitate isn't even option because this move.
Only two types can take halved damage from Ground: Bug, and Grass type. Only TWO. Flying lose that immunity thanks for Thousand Arrows, so... one type definitly becomes really broken in this meta...
Only one other type, what have similar situation is Dragon type... BUT...
Dragons can't counter more than one type - themselfs. And can't touch Faries...
And even with 90 power still this move hurt...
AWailOfATail
viva la darmz
If we do end up using a ladder requirement, I would say that Glicko might be a better choice since we use Glicko to determine usage weightings in other tiers. It's less "how much you play" based and more "how well you play" at least from my perspective. But hey, either one can pretty much let you know if you're a good player so it wouldn't matter much (I just like Glicko more :] ).
Don't honestly know what to think of a ladder requirement, though. On one hand, it definitely does prevent some inexperienced comments, but it also kinda sets the tone of the thread as elitist in a way. Sort of offputting to newcomers in my opinion. I'd be fine either way though.
ban offense
Don't honestly know what to think of a ladder requirement, though. On one hand, it definitely does prevent some inexperienced comments, but it also kinda sets the tone of the thread as elitist in a way. Sort of offputting to newcomers in my opinion. I'd be fine either way though.
InfernapeTropius11
get on my level
Thousand Arrows isn't broken tbh. It's only 90 BP and the only semi-relevant Ground-types in BH atm are Primal Groudon (who has to run Red Orb), Mega Garchomp, Mega Steelix, and Mega Swampert. To wall Thousand Arrows, you really just need a physically bulky mon that isn't weak to it, of which there are plenty. Mega Audino, Chansey, Arceus, and Giratina, for example, all generally take Thousand Arrows with ease. Fur Coat on other neutralities can handle it too, and you can check Thousand Arrows users with priority such as Prankster Spore or -ate FakeSpeed as well. Just because it has few resists doesn't mean it's broken.
Go to my second point, you should be active in the metagame to participate in important discussions. I'm not saying that 1500 is a good inficator or anything. It just means that you're not totally uninformed (like that user in the previous page) and that you're actually active in the metagame. In your example, if someone can't be bothered to obtain 1500 then they don't have the right to comment on this important topic. It's a very low requirement only to filter out the worst cases.
In any case, we've all made our points. Flint is running this and he can decide what he wants to do. Unless you have something important to add onto this, let's leave the discussion to suspects.
MAMP
MAMP!
The point about Refrigerate is really interesting and its something I've been thinking about a fair bit recently. The Kyurems are not as much worse than MRay/MDiancie as your post seems to be suggesting, but I have no doubt that they would be a lot easier to handle without the teambuilding restrictions that Aerilate and Pixilate and Protean cause. On the other hand, both are still extremely powerful and their lack of speed and poor defensive typing is made up for by their significantly greater bulk; I'm kinda on the fence about Refrigerate and I think I need to see more opinions on the subject before I come to a conclusion. You make the point that -ate is a necessity to keep offense in check and I'm not sure I agree with this. I feel like this mentality comes from the fact that -ate has been so dominant in the tier for so long, and so other priority users have fallen by the wayside; Gale Wings, Sucker Punch, non-ate Fake Out/Extreme Speed from things like Regigigas, Focus Sash (possibly with Magic Guard), Prankster Nature Power (admittedly niche), and good old-fashioned priority moves like Mach Punch and Ice Shard (potentially boosted by Technician/Adaptability), not to mention stuff like Prankster Topsy/DBond and Imposter. Set-up might end up being broken in a post-ate metagame, but it's really impossible to know at this point, and making banning decisions based on the state of a theoretical post-ate meta is kinda dumb bc that meta would be so different to the current meta that its really impossible to tell what it would be like.
STAB + -ate ban is really not a good idea, it's arbitrary and needlessly complex, not to mention the fact that we already have a clause for the specific purpose of limiting -ate. -ate isn't so valuable for the meta that we have to jump through these kind of hoops to keep it in the tier, it's so much easier to just ban it outright.
Honestly, the meta is so stagnant and boring, I think -ate ban as a whole could be a good way to shake things up.
Even tho I would still like the stab elimination path, yeah, it might be bit too complicated or a slippery slope, but the more I think of the current state of many of OMs, -ate's alone are just so much BS with creating basicly priority the meta pack steel type and pray for no coverage it's just bluh bluh.
Sleep clause would also be something that would be nice to test too, cause it would also open options for the item slot.
But really, we need something atleast to shake BH a bit to make it more fun again. I'm tired of trying to come back to it, only to go "oh right, prepare for this, oh right, this too, and this, and this and this" only to find my team going back to the same looking boring mould just to be able to play proper matches when I get higher in ladder.
Even tho I would still like the stab elimination path, yeah, it might be bit too complicated or a slippery slope, but the more I think of the current state of many of OMs, -ate's alone are just so much BS with creating basicly priority the meta pack steel type and pray for no coverage it's just bluh bluh.
Sleep clause would also be something that would be nice to test too, cause it would also open options for the item slot.
But really, we need something atleast to shake BH a bit to make it more fun again. I'm tired of trying to come back to it, only to go "oh right, prepare for this, oh right, this too, and this, and this and this" only to find my team going back to the same looking boring mould just to be able to play proper matches when I get higher in ladder.
Okay guys, I believe that Pikachu should be banned.
Pikachu is a pokemon that can either be terrible and useless, or be able to easily sweep teams, all depending on luck.
First off, what seperates Pikachu from Chansey? Well, Chansey can be prepared for a lot easier than Pikachu. For example, say a team has a GW mega ray, and an unaware mega audino to wall it in the event of an imposter. However, should Pikachu come in on the rayquaza, all of a sudden mega audino gets 2hkoed by the pikachu, and cant wall it at all. +2 252 SpA Mega Rayquaza Oblivion Wing vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Audino: 204-241 (49.7 - 58.7%) -- 73.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery.
Additionally, Pikachu can utilize tailwind/nuzzle support very well, especially the former. Tailwind means that pikachu doesn't have to rely on a speedtie in order to demolish teams, as does nuzzle. However, this support can be extremely difficult to setup, so, more often than not, pikachu will still need to win a speedtie in order to sweep teams.
The only way to beat pikachu once it is impostered is to have a pokemon that is completley immune to all moves the impostered mon has, which is very restrictive and almost never done.
Enough talk, lets see pikkachu in action! http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/balancedhackmons-349658404
In this battle, pikachu absolutly demolished my team due to a single speedtie. My only hope was to spam parting shot with aegislash to try to get its attacks down to a reasonable level, but in that time it was easily able to kill both fc chansey and my soundproof arceus. (The crits didnt matter, it was a 2hko on both of them anyway). Pikachu breaks teams extremely easily and has no place in this meta. BAN IT.
Pikachu is a pokemon that can either be terrible and useless, or be able to easily sweep teams, all depending on luck.
First off, what seperates Pikachu from Chansey? Well, Chansey can be prepared for a lot easier than Pikachu. For example, say a team has a GW mega ray, and an unaware mega audino to wall it in the event of an imposter. However, should Pikachu come in on the rayquaza, all of a sudden mega audino gets 2hkoed by the pikachu, and cant wall it at all. +2 252 SpA Mega Rayquaza Oblivion Wing vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Audino: 204-241 (49.7 - 58.7%) -- 73.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery.
Additionally, Pikachu can utilize tailwind/nuzzle support very well, especially the former. Tailwind means that pikachu doesn't have to rely on a speedtie in order to demolish teams, as does nuzzle. However, this support can be extremely difficult to setup, so, more often than not, pikachu will still need to win a speedtie in order to sweep teams.
The only way to beat pikachu once it is impostered is to have a pokemon that is completley immune to all moves the impostered mon has, which is very restrictive and almost never done.
Enough talk, lets see pikkachu in action! http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/balancedhackmons-349658404
In this battle, pikachu absolutly demolished my team due to a single speedtie. My only hope was to spam parting shot with aegislash to try to get its attacks down to a reasonable level, but in that time it was easily able to kill both fc chansey and my soundproof arceus. (The crits didnt matter, it was a 2hko on both of them anyway). Pikachu breaks teams extremely easily and has no place in this meta. BAN IT.
Love ya lmc, but these kinds of posts absolutely have no place here. In general, I'm getting really sick of the Pikachu meme infiltrating and subsequently ruining every BH conversation. Pikachu is a gimmick with, in some battles, a 50% chance of being slightly more useful than not useful at all. It's not even an amusing joke pokemon because it's so overused and boring.
I think I speak for everyone when I say that a thread trying to foster a serious conversation would be much better off without this stuff.
This is the point that I'm trying to make. It can be absolutley useless if it loses the speedtie, as it just gets outsped and ohkoed, whereas by winning the speedtie it can demolish a team. It's pure luck. Is that not why we banned chatter? It was completely uncompetitive and could turn who won the battle into a coinflip. Pikachu is the exact same way.
I am trying to foster a serious discussion. I don't think something that can easily gain a crucial advantage by winning a speedtie should still be in this meta. It's no different from sleep and chatter.
Not if it copies protean, and name 1 scarfer that isn't MRay. That's not a good argument at all regardless, as you either have no ate (and can't revenge), or have 1 and get copied. This isn't even getting into the fact that they can just run a second pikachu, and either get a 75% chance of sweeping or the ability to copy the ate after it revenges.
The best counter against "Huge Power" Imposter Pikachu is (what you say before) pokemon, who is immune from all move what he gain...
Jugment, for example, is one of the hardest move to counter in Imposter vs oryginal pokemon battle. All ghosts have not only 100 power Ghost type move, but also uncountable move what can't by given for oponent EXPECT this Imposter have Spoky plate.
But in this case Pikachu can't have Light Ball, what makes him that strong.
This thing can be easly beated by Mold Breaker Spoky Plate Mega-Gengar with Jugment/Secret Sword/Sheel Smash/Substitute. Just use that Sub on turn, when Pikachu leave arena with that knowlege about moveset - you gain free turn for safety Set Up against any Fake Out user (-ate or Scrapy user), even set new Sub for sure, he didn't have Sucker Punch. And... in a lot of matchups this set sweep teams.
Only Prankster Ghost with Magic Room can counter this set, when we have Sub, and Infiltrator Priority user - little power but against weak Physical Defensive destroy that Gengar.
Or Normal/Ghost pokemon. :P Sadly didn't exist...
Very Similar situation we have with Lucky Punch Chansey... Expect this is actually really bulky pokemon with 50% change for crit every time, when she atack oponent.
Great Counter against Bulky Sweapers with boost...
But also lose against Mold-Gengar...
Suggesting to ban Pikachu is like that time someone was suggesting we ban Frustration because it adds randomness or something.
But okay, Pokemon is a game with an element of randomness and luck. And, unless we ban everything that has any variable factor to it, it's going to remain. Second, Pikachu is not like Chatter. Chatter could be run on literally every Pokemon to great effect and turned a whole match into coin tosses for both sides. Pikachu, you can have at most of two. Second, proper Imposter-proofing, like Moldy Judgement Gengar, renders it completely useless. Third, you can also outplay it by not sending in your potentially deadly, unstoppable sweeper until Pikachu has been dealt with (which is what you should be doing REGARDLESS of whether the Imposter is Pikachu, Chansey, or Magikarp.) Fourth, if Pikachu switches into Knock Off or Trick, well... Pikachu is done.
Besides, not to mini-mod or anything, but can we focus on one thing at a time? Talking about -ates, Shedinja, Pikachu, and whatever else is thrown around all at the same time won't accomplish much because there'll be way too much noise.
But okay, Pokemon is a game with an element of randomness and luck. And, unless we ban everything that has any variable factor to it, it's going to remain. Second, Pikachu is not like Chatter. Chatter could be run on literally every Pokemon to great effect and turned a whole match into coin tosses for both sides. Pikachu, you can have at most of two. Second, proper Imposter-proofing, like Moldy Judgement Gengar, renders it completely useless. Third, you can also outplay it by not sending in your potentially deadly, unstoppable sweeper until Pikachu has been dealt with (which is what you should be doing REGARDLESS of whether the Imposter is Pikachu, Chansey, or Magikarp.) Fourth, if Pikachu switches into Knock Off or Trick, well... Pikachu is done.
Besides, not to mini-mod or anything, but can we focus on one thing at a time? Talking about -ates, Shedinja, Pikachu, and whatever else is thrown around all at the same time won't accomplish much because there'll be way too much noise.
This says pretty much everything i wanted to say about the subject. However i would like to add that chatter was prevalent throughout the entire BH ladder and was successful in several dailies with many skilled players. Pikachu has never been used in a serious tournament and only sees marginal ladder usage in low ladder. Chatter was also a passable move even if you didn't get lucky with confusion. Obviously it was run for the confusion, but flying coverage is good and 60 bp does hurt after boosting. Chatter wasn't just simple rng. Pikachu totally lacks utility. It can't scout or copy defensive pivots and steal momentum or wall a a threat like Chansey can. The only thing Pikachu can do is maybe steal a game if your opponent doesn't play properly.
And i totally agree this thread has seriously lacked focus. Protean and -ate are way bigger issues then anything else that has been brought up and those discussions have only served to derail more important discussion. Hence the reason i suggested forbidding imposter and shed discussion. There isn't anything relevant that hasn't already been discussed about shed and imposter. Therefore discussion on the subject would only distract people from real issues in the BH metagame.
You rang?
Seriously though, I'm going to argue that the problem isn't with -ate and Protean, but their most common abusers.
Mega Rayquaza, Mega Mewto Y, and Mega Mewtwo X.
Mega Mewtwo X is the physical attacker. It's (just about) the bulkiest of the three 'Mons in question, and the one that's (probably) the least predictable. It's fast, boasting 130 base Speed, enough in each defense to discount basic priority spam as being worth anything, and hits like a truck.
Of the three, Xtwo runs the widest variety of sets. Contrary and Protean are the most common that I've seen, but No Guard, Mold Breaker, Technician, Skill Link, Tough Claws, Adaptability, Scrappy and -ate have all been ones I've seen in the past. Xtwo uses all of them well- Contrary takes advantage of Xtwo's Fighting STAB to launch ever more powerful Superpowers, Protean works the same as it does on anything else, No Guard allows the spreading of status and lets you guarantee powerful Dynamicpunches, Mold Breaker makes short work of Magic Bouncers and Fur Coats (And Shedinja)... the list goes on, and doesn't end.
Also of the three, Xtwo is perhaps the easiest to stop. Fur Coat shuts down everything except some Mold Breakers and No Guards, and it's vulnerable to two of three -ates. However it's also in some ways the hardest to actually kill; it lacks the crippling Rock, Ice or Dark weaknesses of it's compatriots, is overall the bulkiest (if by a single base HP) and has enough extra speed that very few things can outrun and kill it. Aside from the few peers it has in speed (Ytwo, MGengar and maybe MAlakazam and Maerodactyl) anything killing it is either going to do so via chip damage, SE Priority, Scarf or taking a hit. Not much can do the last; Very few things live an attack from Xtwo without heavy investment. Fewer things can successfully oneshot it in doing so, which means they need to survive two hits. And only the most solid defensive walls can manage that without healing, and if you're healing then you're probably not doing damage.
252 Atk Life Orb Protean Mega Mewtwo X Play Rough vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 328-385 (65.2 - 76.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Protean Mega Mewtwo X Precipice Blades vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Mega Audino: 208-247 (50.8 - 60.3%) -- 39.8% chance to 2HKO after Poison Heal
252 Atk Life Orb Protean Mega Mewtwo X Precipice Blades vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Aegislash-Shield: 369-437 (113.8 - 134.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Expert Belt Mega Mewtwo X Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 290-350 (57.6 - 69.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Mega Mewtwo X Icicle Spear (3 hits) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 297-351 (59 - 69.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Mega Mewtwo X Gear Grind (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Audino: 380-452 (92.6 - 110.2%) -- approx. 68.8% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Mega Mewtwo X Bonemerang (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Aegislash-Shield: 338-400 (104.3 - 123.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Tough Claws Mega Mewtwo X Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Audino: 270-320 (65.8 - 78%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal
252 Atk Life Orb Tough Claws Mega Mewtwo X Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 307-361 (61 - 71.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Tough Claws Mega Mewtwo X Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Aegislash-Shield: 260-307 (80.2 - 94.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
These are the most defensive Pokemon without an inherent weakness to Mewtwo's Fighting-type. Unless you equip them with Fur Coat, you cannot switch them in. You can bring them in after a Parting Shot or U-Turn, sure- but even then, the slightest bit of prior damage and you just lost a Pokemon.
And if you want to be really dickish when running Xtwo? You still have normal Mewtwo's 154 base Special attack.
4 SpA Life Orb Protean Mega Mewtwo X Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 252 SpD Giratina: 374-439 (74.3 - 87.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Life Orb Protean Mega Mewtwo X Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Audino: 304-359 (74.1 - 87.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Sure, you'll only be running one of these. That's still an out-of-the-blue move that makes one of the best Fur Coat pokemon unable to wall it, with minimal investment. (I'm not including Chansey in this, because Fur Coat Eviolite Chansey can't come in on anything and reliably wall Xtwo.
You can imposter scout yes, but that doesn't change the fact that you can't wall it. At all. That's something common to all of these three, actually, but Xtwo provides a good baseline; by running a single countermove, either Giratina or Audino are no longer a problem. With a bit of investment, you can go from threatening 2HKOes to getting guaranteed ones on the slightest bit of prior damage- such as taking a couple of U-Turns, or Stealth Rock.
Mega Mewtwo Y is the frail one of the bunch, only sporting a mere 70 defense. It's also blindingly fast- there are exactly ten Pokemon with the same or more base speed than it has, and four of those (Electrode, Ninjask, Deoxys-N, and Accelgor) are trash in BH. Three of the remaining have at best niche gimmick uses (MSceptile, MBeedrill, and MAlakazam), and the other three are viable only withing their niche (MAerodactyl, Deoxys-S, Deoxys-A).
Ytwo also possesses the single highest offensive stat in the entire game.
There is no need for subtlety when you bring this thing out; You point, and things die. Protean Ytwo is the premier special attacker in the tier for a very good reason- When you use it, there is very little anything can do except hope that the Ytwo isn't carrying an SE move.
252 SpA Spooky Plate Protean Mega Mewtwo Y Judgment vs. 248 HP / 252 SpD Giratina: 372-438 (73.9 - 87%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Protean Mega Mewtwo Y Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Registeel: 218-258 (59.8 - 70.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Protean Mega Mewtwo Y Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 500-590 (71 - 83.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Spooky Plate Protean Mega Mewtwo Y Judgment vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Aegislash-Shield: 288-342 (88.8 - 105.5%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
Stopping it from just tearing gaping holes in your team depends entirely on what moves it happens to be running. And just expecting Ghost Judgment/Secret Sword/Moonblast isn't enough either- I've seen Steel Judgment/Power Gem/Ice Beam/Moonblast before, as well as Rock Judgment/Oblivion Wing/Blue Flare/Sludge Wave. I'm sure you could run Ground Judgment/Power Gem/Sludge Wave/King's Shield too, but I've never seen that one.
The point is, Protean Ytwo can run basically every single Special move under the sun to great effect. Special Moves also are typically less risky than their equivalent physical moves- the 90-ish BP Special moves typically have 100% accuracy under normal conditions, as opposed to the shakier accuracy or unreliable damage of their physical counterparts. Judgment also means that Ytwo can have a 100BP Plate-boosted attack of every type save Normal- and Boomburst outclasses Judgment there.
And if that wasn't bad enough, Protean is not the only set Ytwo can run.
Be it Simple Tail Glow, setting up an absurdly powerful move in one turn then blasting everything in the way, Contrary Psycho Boost for something that requires very specific sets to stop, Adaptability for incredibly powerful Psystrikes...
Even gimmick sets like Flare Boost or Illusion become dangerous when used by Ytwo, even if only for the shock value.
252 SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Mega Mewtwo Y Psystrike vs. 248 HP / 252 Def Mega Audino: 298-352 (72.8 - 86%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Mega Mewtwo Y Psystrike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 588-692 (83.5 - 98.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Mega Mewtwo Y Psystrike vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 282-332 (56 - 66%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Flare Boost Mega Mewtwo Y Moonblast vs. 248 HP / 252 SpD Giratina: 294-346 (58.4 - 68.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Flare Boost Mega Mewtwo Y Psystrike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Audino: 204-240 (49.7 - 58.5%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Flare Boost Mega Mewtwo Y Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 498-586 (70.7 - 83.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Flare Boost Mega Mewtwo Y Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Registeel: 204-240 (56 - 65.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Ytwo does not have quite the variety that the other two manage. It does not need it; Only Imposter and priority spam can guarantee that a Protean will do little damage, and even then they get shut down by careful moveset design and King's Shield.
Mega Rayquaza is basically what defines the tier right now. It's fast, obscenely powerful on both ends of the offensive spectrum, and has a good offensive typing that allows it to take advantage of a few of the most powerful offensive abilities. Aerilate and Gale Wings primarily, but it takes advantage of Protean and Contrary too. It's incredibly unpredictable; You could try to switch in a Special wall to take advantage of a predicted Tail Glow-Gale Wings set, only to meet a Superpower coming the other way. You can try your luck with a Rocky Helmet-Soundproof combination to try and counter an Aerilate, but instead get Protean V-Create.
It's unpredictable, and unless you see something like a Diancie on the other team, there's no real way to rule out a given set.
And one of those sets will take out half your team. That's probably normal; this is BH. There's no way anyone can account for every set on evry 'mon. But Rayquaza's mere existance removes some Pokemon from being viable ever. Aerilate Rayquaza is overwhelming in it's raw power, and 2HKOes almost every single viable Pokemon in the entire tier either by Fake Out/Extremespeed, or two Boombursts. The exceptions; Specially defensive Registeel, Aegislash and Mega Tyranitar. Maybe Vest/Sand Stream Regirock too, if you count that as viable.
4 SpA Sky Plate Aerilate Mega Rayquaza Boomburst vs. 248 HP / 252 SpD Giratina: 274-324 (54.4 - 64.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Sky Plate Aerilate Mega Rayquaza Boomburst vs. 248 HP / 252 SpD Mega Audino: 265-313 (64.7 - 76.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Sky Plate Aerilate Mega Rayquaza Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 346-408 (49.1 - 57.9%) -- 96.9% chance to 2HKO
Note that I'm assuming that you're running max speed physically based MRaqyaza. If you dump Specs on it, something I've done in the past, then things look a little different.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Aerilate Mega Rayquaza Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 319-376 (45.3 - 53.4%) -- 35.5% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Aerilate Mega Rayquaza Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Registeel: 168-198 (46.1 - 54.3%) -- 8.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Aerilate Mega Rayquaza Boomburst vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Giratina: 397-468 (78.9 - 93%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Aerilate Mega Rayquaza Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Aegislash-Shield: 168-198 (51.8 - 61.1%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Aerilate Mega Rayquaza Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Mega Tyranitar: 217-256 (53.7 - 63.3%) -- 85.9% chance to 2HKO after Poison Heal
These are all Pokemon typically considered to be at least decent checks to Mega Rayquaza; All of them have at least a chance to get 2HKOed. You are forced to run either Soundproof on something, or an Assault Vest/Sand Stream to be able to guarantee something being able to switch in and not die before attacking.
This is just disgusting.
Gale Wings does somethig similar. After a single round of setup, easily done by bringing the Rayquaza in on something that Aerilate kills that the opponent doesn't want dead, you can begin firing off boosted Oblivion Wings or Dragon Ascents at whatever your opponent has bought in, or you can instead use a coverage move to break whatever has tried to switch in that thinks it can resist you. The only thing capable of consistenly switching in on this and killing back is Diancie (And possibly Tyranitar); If the Rayquaza is running max speed and has opted for a Steel or Fighting coverage move, then not even they can cope. In a way it's actually worse, because you're leeching off all the HP you might lose from stray Knock Offs or entry hazards- and if you get a Sub up, as many of this set chose to run, then you can't even be Topsy Turvy'd or Impostered.
+3 252+ SpA Mega Rayquaza Oblivion Wing vs. 248 HP / 252 SpD Giratina: 319-376 (63.4 - 74.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+3 252+ SpA Mega Rayquaza Oblivion Wing vs. 248 HP / 252 SpD Mega Audino: 309-364 (75.5 - 88.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+3 252+ SpA Mega Rayquaza Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Registeel: 372-438 (102.1 - 120.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+3 252+ SpA Mega Rayquaza Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 176+ SpD Assault Vest Mega Tyranitar in Sand: 206-244 (51.1 - 60.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
And if you think you can deal with one of these then whatever you've chosen probably can't cope with Protean. And everything I mentioned above for Protean on the other two also applies here, but particularly Xtwo's section, because MRayquaza's offensive stats are dead even. You exchange a slight edge in physical power for guaranteed kills on phyiscal walls, or a slight edge in special power for surprise kills on special builds.
252 SpA Protean Mega Rayquaza Secret Sword vs. 248 HP / 76 Def Mega Tyranitar: 472-564 (117.1 - 139.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
4 SpA Spooky Plate Protean Mega Rayquaza Judgment vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Giratina: 368-434 (73.1 - 86.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Protean Mega Rayquaza Precipice Blades vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Registeel: 296-350 (81.3 - 96.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Protean Mega Rayquaza Precipice Blades vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Aegislash-Shield: 296-350 (91.3 - 108%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
4 SpA Spooky Plate Protean Mega Rayquaza Judgment vs. 252 HP / 4+ SpD Aegislash-Shield: 278-330 (85.8 - 101.8%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
And the best thing about this is? Rayquaza can run every single set mentioned above in the analyses for the other two, if at possibly lessenes effectiveness. It certainly has the best Contrary, as Scarf Draco Meteor is a fairly effective Imposterproof method for Contrary.
So why am I making this argument?
Because I suspect that without these three, the abilities in question would not be broken.
-Ate remains a fairly effective ability, with the primary abuser being MDiancie. The thing is, Diancie is nowhere near as terrifying as Rayquaza; It's slower, and frailler, and Fairy is an overall worse offensive type than Flying is. It also doesn't have quite as much raw power that Mray could bring to bear.
You also have the Kyurems reclaiming their old ground. They're bulkier than MRay is, significantly so. They're also much slower, and they can only go mixed at the expense of a rather significant chunk of power.
The last is regular old Rayquaza, who behaves much the same as MRay except slower, less powerful, and less bulky.
The thing is though, without MRay overshadowing everything, some other things become viable again. Mega Venusaur becomes a viable check for Diancie, Mega Scizor can take all of them, Fire types can take both too (Not that there are many viable Fire-types that aren't neutral against Ice), while Water types deal with the Kyurems rather effectively. Everything that was made invalid by Rayquaza's mere existance now has a new breath of air.
But the thing is, none of them are nearly as overwhelming as MRay is. And it is a very effective way of keeping offense in check; It's a good way of stopping runaway offensive sweepers and faster threats that just aren't easily handled otherwise. Yes, it's still very good. But it's no longer the absolute dearth on stall it once might have been, making everything weak to Flying utterly nonexistant. It's also still limited by the -ate clause.
Protean... That's a bit trickier. Protean, by definition, has no counters. If something has a high enough offensive presence, then only the moves chosen limit it. On the other hand, while you get STAB on everything your own STAB moves hit no harder than they normally would have. And without the raw power that the three mentioned above can bring to bear, then they're a lot easier to deal with.
I'll also make this argument, the same one I made for Parental Bond back in the day.
When choosing a Pokemon to fit a role, you have to ask yourself "Is there anything better that can fit this role?"
Right now, for offensive Pokemon, you will almost always find the answer to be "Yes, one of these three"
There is no way this is healthy for the metagame. It's PDon all over again; You can just run three of them and force people to try and check the same thing three times over.
TL:DR; The problem isn't with -ate or Protean, it's with the Mega Mewtwos and Mega Rayquaza.
I think Imposter is rather overcentralizing - Chansey basically defines the meta, and Pika Pika can be uncompetitive as well. A lot of cool options get shot down by "Chansey copies, gg".
Which is good tauneutrino. Without it the metagame is essentially put a mold breaker on, give it extreme speed, shell smash, and king shield + coverage and that's the metagame. and the game becomes whoever sets up first.
InfernapeTropius11
get on my level
Can Sturdinja and Imposter please get blacklisted from discussion here? They are brought up so often (and not just in this thread though both have made an appearance here) and there are so many ways to prepare for both. In the end, it comes down to developing good teambuilding skills, as neither are broken and if you think preparing for two of the meta's top threats is too centralizing in teambuilding, well, you're gonna lose to them. Discussion around this distracts from the current topics that might actually be broken (Mega Mewtwos, MRay, Protean, etc.) so it's best to just focus on them, without worrying about these two derailing the discussion. As for my opinion on the mons and abilities under discussion, I haven't had a chance to read all the big posts in this thread yet, so I'd like to do that first so I don't just repeat what others have already brought up.