BH Balanced Hackmons Old Gens Hub

cityscapes

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Balanced Hackmons Old Gens Hub

Welcome to the BH Old Gens Hub! This thread has the purpose of providing information and resources about the past generations of BH (Gens 4-7) as well as a place to discuss these metagames. Each post will contain actively updated sample teams, relevant mechanics, and viability rankings for its respective old gen as well as links to other resources. The thread can be used to discuss sample teams/viability rankings as well as general talk about the metagame. Here is the previous thread.
 
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cityscapes

Take care of yourself.
is a Tiering Contributoris a Community Contributor Alumnus
USUM BH

Join the Discord server here!​

Important mechanical changes:
  • Core Enforcer, Revelation Dance, Pursuit, and Judgment among other moves are usable. Click here for a full list.
  • All Pokemon in the Generation 7 National Pokedex can be used, including Mega Evolutions and Ultra Necrozma.
  • Z-Crystals and Mega Stones can be used, allowing for the use of Z-Moves and manual Mega Evolution.
  • Figy Berry and its equivalents restore HP by 50% instead of 33%.
  • Rapid Spin is 20 BP and does not increase Speed.
  • Grassy, Electric, and Psychic Terrain boost is 1.5x instead of 1.3x.
  • Defog no longer removes Terrains.
Click here for a comprehensive list of changes.
Pokemon
  • :groudon-primal: Primal Groudon (Link)
  • :rayquaza-mega: Mega Rayquaza (Link)
Moves
  • Chatter (Link)
  • OHKO Moves
Abilities
  • Wonder Guard
  • Pure/Huge Power
  • Parental Bond (Link)
  • Protean (Link) (Gen 7: Link)
  • Shadow Tag/Arena Trap
  • Moody (Link)
  • Water Bubble (Link)
  • Innards Out (Link)
  • Magnet Pull (Link)
  • Stakeout (Link)
  • Psychic Surge (Link)
  • Illusion (Link)
  • Contrary (Link)
Clauses
  • Ability Clause: No more than two Pokemon with the same ability per team. (Link)
  • CFZ Clause: Use of Crystal-Free Z-Moves (CFZ's) is disallowed. Z-Moves can only be used by upgrading the base move with a Z-Crystal, like in standard play. (Link, Discussion)
  • ComaTalk Clause: Sleep Talk can't be run on a Pokemon with the Comatose ability (Link)
  • Endless Battle Clause: Forcing an endless battle is banned, similar to the rest of PS
  • Evasion Moves Clause: No moves that can increase Evasion are allowed. This does not include abilities or items that may modify Evasion passively such as Sand Veil or Brightpowder (Link)
  • Sleep Clause: Only one Pokemon on the opponent's team can be put to sleep at a time. This excludes self-inflicted sleep or Comatose (Link)
  • Forme Clause: You may only use one of each forme of a Pokemon on your team. (Example: you can use both Mewtwo-Mega-X and Mewtwo-Mega-Y on the same team)
Items
S-Rank
:chansey::blissey::pikachu: Imposter
:xerneas: Xerneas

A-Rank
A+
:gengar-mega: Gengar-Mega
:giratina: Giratina
:groudon:
Groudon [Red Orb]
:mewtwo-mega-y: Mewtwo-Mega-Y
:shedinja: Shedinja
:zygarde-complete: Zygarde-Complete

A
:diancie-mega: Diancie-Mega
:kyogre-primal: Kyogre-Primal
:mewtwo-mega-x: Mewtwo-Mega-X

A-
:kartana: Kartana
:yveltal: Yveltal

B-Rank
B+
:garchomp-mega: Garchomp-Mega
:registeel: Registeel

B
:aerodactyl-mega: Aerodactyl-Mega
:arceus: Arceus
:dialga: Dialga
:ho-oh: Ho-Oh
:kangaskhan:
Kangaskhan [Kangaskhanite]
:kyurem-black: Kyurem-Black
:magearna: Magearna
:necrozma-dusk-mane: Necrozma-Dusk-Mane
:regigigas::slaking: Regigigas/Slaking
:tyranitar-mega: Tyranitar-Mega


B-
:aegislash:
Aegislash
:audino-mega: Audino-Mega
:beedrill-mega: Beedrill-Mega
:blaziken-mega: Blaziken-Mega
:celesteela: Celesteela
:chansey: Chansey
:cresselia: Cresselia
:greninja-ash: Greninja-Ash
:kyurem-white: Kyurem-White
:slowbro-mega: Slowbro-Mega
:solgaleo: Solgaleo
:zekrom: Zekrom

C-Rank
:charizard-mega-y: Charizard-Mega-Y (Poison Heal, Aerilate, Triage)
:deoxys-attack: Deoxys-Attack
:ferrothorn: Ferrothorn
:gyarados-mega: Gyarados-Mega
:metagross-mega: Metagross-Mega (Magic Bounce, Regenerator, Tough Claws)
:necrozma-ultra: Necrozma-Ultra
:palkia: Palkia (Drizzle, Tinted Lens, Swift Swim)
:pheromosa: Pheromosa
:rayquaza: Rayquaza (Aerilate, Triage, Tough Claws)
:sableye-mega:
Sableye-Mega
:scizor-mega: Scizor-Mega (Flash Fire)
:steelix-mega: Steelix-Mega (Flash Fire, Prankster, Regenerator)
:suicune: Suicune (Magic Bounce)
:swampert-mega: Swampert-Mega
:tapu-fini: Tapu Fini (Fur Coat)

D-Rank
:aggron-mega: Aggron-Mega (Regenerator, Prankster)
:ampharos-mega: Ampharos-Mega (Prankster, Galvanize)
Arceus-Steel (Multitype)
:darmanitan-zen: Darmanitan-Zen (Regenerator, Fur Coat)
:diancie: Diancie
:gardevoir-mega: Gardevoir-Mega (Tinted Lens, Pixilate)
:giratina-origin: Giratina-Origin (Magic Bounce, Prankster, Mold Breaker)
:groudon: Groudon (Fur Coat, Soundproof)
:heatran: Heatran (Magic Bounce, Levitate)
:heracross-mega: Heracross-Mega (Triage, Tinted Lens)
:hoopa-unbound: Hoopa-Unbound
:lucario-mega: Lucario-Mega (Steelworker)
:lugia: Lugia (Aerilate, Magic Bounce)
:marowak-alola: Marowak-Alola (Tinted Lens, Tough Claws)
:nihilego: Nihilego (Sand Stream, Levitate)
:regirock: Regirock (Sand Stream)
:reshiram: Reshiram (Turboblaze, Poison Heal, Desolate Land)
:sceptile-mega: Sceptile-Mega
:stakataka: Stakataka (Steelworker, Sand Stream, Levitate)
:toxapex: Toxapex
:venusaur-mega: Venusaur-Mega (Flash Fire)
:xurkitree: Xurkitree (Galvanize)
:zeraora: Zeraora (Snow Warning, Teravolt)

Changelog:
Update 1 (Oct. 15, 2020)

See the BH Central Resources link below for changes made during the generation.
Double PH TDS Variation by Marsopa Trump & Test Rex
This team has a solid defensive and offensive core. I chose ferrothorn over registeel to have a more solid answer to pheal spikes setter xerneas (without magma) that is rising in use (as well a spike setter pheal audino). Ferro is a nice mabouncer and got quite more usable post ray ban. In this variation I sack mmx and diancie and change them for yveltal and xerneas, both pheal. Xerneas was chosen for it utility to set spikes safely while bringing offensive power and the option to boost and sweep. Is hard imposterproofed by ferrothorn at +0 and+1, if its further boosted xern itself can still imposterproof (unless crit uh), letting imp set spikes but it also goes for you. Yveltal is chosen as a knock offer and u-turn punisher. I have a lot of oportinities to boost during a match and can punish spectral users with beak blast. It imposterproofs himself (unless crit uh x 2). Anchor stand for have a better mashup against audino, impostertrap and ocasionally trapping passive walls without stat control to boost in the face. Its a solid mon over all. This variation is a bit more defensive but still have enough offensive presence. Earth power in xern may be changed by nuzzle or another support move.

Final Gambit Lunala by Chessking345
Fun team around a Ghost core. Lunala is immensely threatening to anything not Dark, which it just blows up and frees Gengar potential sweep. Zygarde Cresselia and Kyogre act as a weird but decently effective defensive core. Nuzzle and Spectrals are kinda the main setup check so be careful with opposing setup. Lead Imposter or Cresselia into Zyg or something. Sometimes Lunala is a better breaker so use Gengar to weaken checks. Dark Z part shot can be used to heal Lunala to blow up stuff if it’s chipped.
Team is susceptible to Guzzlord because Lunala doesn’t blow it up and it checks Gengar. Pursuit trappers are also threatening as 3 mons are weak to them. PH normals are also somewhat threatening as they are immune to the main methods of setup control, forcing the use of the offensive mons to check

Legend of the Panda by Marsopa Trump & Test Rex
The ttar is meant to be a pangoro but I dont want the team to get auto rejected lol. beedrill and ferro do similar jobs than in the other team. Fini works as a stallbreaker with infestation+scald which is a deadly combo. Its also a good rock setter. Darmanitan is a regenvest to solid block non-rock stab diancies (ferro block diancies with rock coverage and darm does so with diancie with fire coverage), refridge kyurems, refri or pixi mmx and blanket check for mmy, as well as being able to spred burns with happiness. Standard physical wall gira and ttar finish the team with his raw high power and the ability to trap mons with pursuit and remove items. The improofs are: ttar > fini (after orb activation), bee > fini and darmanitan, gira > ttar and ferro, ferro > darmanitan, fini > itself and ferro, darmanitan > fini and ttar.

Eons of Stars by SectoniaServant
Built around the concept of Fairy-Spam, kinda. This team kinda struggles with Shedinja, hence why Necrozma-Dusk-Mane is carrying Sunsteel Strike. Xerneas is improofed by Ho-oh, Mega Diancie is improofed by Necrozma-Dusk-Mane. Honestly, I prefer the other team more because it has better ways of dealing with Shedinja, but this team did pretty decently on ladder.

Triage Charizard by Chessking345
Generic Balance team. Main Breaker is Charizard-Y which can sweep very very easily. Tyranitar provides offensive support. Xerneas Toxapex Giratina form a defensive core, Imposter rounds off. Lead is usually Imposter but leading with Char-Y or Pex is ok too. Really try to get Orb activation super fast because your Improof requires it. Tyranitar has great longevity and isn't very scared of Imposter coming in as it is doing good damage while threatening Knock. Toxapex is your NormGar check and is a very good bouncer overall, you can switch it into a lot of defensive mons as well as PH Xern and MMX without much trouble. You want rocks off for Charizard to ease setup. Charizard is pretty easy to get in actually as it has a lot of longevity, Tail Glow is safe play pretty much unless opponent has pivoting and Imposter. If everything is weakened or checks eliminated PH Xern can clean late game which is cool. Team has 2 strong priority which helps against non DQM setup. Tyranitar and Chansey improof Charizard, Xerneas improofs Giratina and Tyranitar, Toxapex improofs Xerneas.
Team is not great against Gengar because Tyranitar dies to Sword, luckily DQM doesn't have the boost so Pex can soft check kinda. Kyurem-W is also kinda threatening because Toxapex isn't a switch-in.

Alternate options on the team are utility move over Volt Switch on Chary to ease improofing. Pursuit over Sucker Punch or Rock Blast on TTar to trap and dent some stuff. Shed Shell over Eviolite on Imposter. Knock Off over Spectral Thief on Toxapex to ease Gengar matchup (use Charizard to check Xern).

Gensokyo Millennium by cityscapes
similar to penguin (rip) and most other shed teams this team takes some getting used to, but it can be very powerful if played well. poison heal mmy is a neat set that can really go in vs weakened teams and teams that rely on passive mons like chans and registeel. pixilate xern is the secondary hazard setter, the hazard remover, and a pretty strong wallbreaker that can pick off some weakened resists unlike the ph set. imposter + shed is imposter + shed. hooh is the bouncer here because it beats nearly all hazard setters, similarly gira is the prankster because the team needs a blanket check to physical attackers.
watch out for specs gar that mons pretty annoying, youll need to make use of mmy + imposter + xern to retain momentum and eventually take it down. very uncommon pokemon though so dont worry about him too much

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-995280850 vs balance
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-995804166 vs stall
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-995811166 vs mmy spam
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-995816874 vs ghost spam

Sheer Force Deoxys-A by Chessking345
Generic Balance team. Main Breaker is Deoxys-A which can also revenge slower threats quite easily (run calcs though). PH MMX provides support by getting hazards and chipping stuff. Giratina and FC Chansey make a solid core and Audino helps with hazards and pivoting while Imposter rounds the team off by providing additional defensive utility and scouting. Typical lead is Imposter but Audino is a really fine one as well to pivot into MMX. You should try to get Toxic Orb activated ASAP but you have 2 underleveled pivoting which should be helpful. Deoxys has 0 bulk so play it carefully but it can be very rewarding if you get it in and they don't have a durable switch-in, also since it dies to everything already switching into rocks or spikes is fine. FC Chansey might want to hit U-turn a lot but keep it reasonably healthy esp if hazards end up on your side. FC Chansey improofs Deoxys and Audino, Audino improofs Giratina and MMX, MMX improofs FC Chansey.
Team has no steel so Specs -ate definitely pressures a lot and in those matchups you really want to be keeping FC Chansey very high and hazards off. Team also doesn't have the greatest matchup vs PH Xern as Audino can get chipped down with QD+Moonblast.

Alternate options on the team are Gunk Shot over Sludge Wave on Deo-A for more power, Moonblast over Ice Beam or Sludge Wave to do more to MMX, U-turn over Volt on Audino to avoid Zygs, Anchor over Volt on Audino to ease improofing and matchup against Xerneas (team can undergo a bigger restructure), alternate move over Poison Fang on FC Chansey, Shed Shell over Eviolite on Imposter.


Shed Stall 2019 by Funbot28
there is nothing here
 
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cityscapes

Take care of yourself.
is a Tiering Contributoris a Community Contributor Alumnus
ORAS BH

Important mechanical changes:
  • 510 EV limit is enforced.
  • Burn deals 12.5% per turn, not 6.25%.
  • Soul Dew boosts Special Attack and Special Defense of Latios and Latias by 1.5x.
  • Dark Void's accuracy is 80%, and it is not restricted to Darkrai.
  • Prankster affects Dark-types.
  • -ate abilities grant a 1.3x power boost, not 1.2x.
  • Gale Wings grants +1 priority to all Flying-type attacks regardless of the user's HP.
  • Base critical hit rate is 1/16 instead of 1/24.
  • Normalize no longer boosts the power of affected moves.
Click here for a comprehensive list of changes.
Moves
  • Assist (Link)
  • Chatter (Link)
  • OHKO Moves
Abilities
  • Wonder Guard
  • Pure/Huge Power
  • Parental Bond (Link)
  • Protean (Link)
  • Shadow Tag/Arena Trap
  • Moody (Link)
Pokemon
  • Primal Groudon (Link)
  • Primal Kyogre (Link)
Clauses
  • Ability Clause: No more than two Pokemon with the same ability per team. (Link)
  • -Ate Clause: No more than one Pokemon with the ability Aerilate, Refrigerate or Pixilate per team (Link)
  • Endless Battle Clause: Forcing an endless battle is banned, similar to the rest of PS
  • Evasion Moves Clause: No moves that can increase Evasion are allowed. This does not include abilities or items that may modify Evasion passively such as Sand Veil or Brightpowder (Link)
S-Rank
:chansey: Chansey
:diancie-mega: Mega Diancie
:rayquaza-mega: Mega Rayquaza

A-Rank
A+
:giratina:
Giratina
:gengar-mega: Mega Gengar

A
:aegislash: Aegislash
:groudon-primal: Groudon (Red Orb)
:audino-mega: Mega Audino
:mewtwo-mega-x: Mega Mewtwo X
:tyranitar-mega: Mega Tyranitar
:registeel: Registeel

A-
:dialga: Dialga
:kyogre: Kyogre
:latias-mega: Mega Latias
:latios-mega: Mega Latios
:mewtwo-mega-y: Mega Mewtwo Y
:shedinja: Shedinja

B-Rank
B+

:arceus: Arceus
:kyurem-black: Kyurem-Black
:garchomp-mega: Mega Garchomp
:gyarados-mega: Mega Gyarados
:yveltal:Yveltal

B
:regigigas: Regigigas
:slaking: Slaking

B-
:gengar:
Gengar
:groudon: Groudon
:ho-oh: Ho-Oh
:blaziken-mega: Mega Blaziken
:metagross-mega: Mega Metagross
:regirock: Regirock
:xerneas: Xerneas

C-Rank
C+
:cresselia:
Cresselia
:kyurem-white: Kyurem-White
:lugia: Lugia
:aerodactyl-mega: Mega Aerodactyl
:aggron-mega: Mega Aggron
:sceptile-mega: Mega Sceptile
:steelix-mega: Mega Steelix
:venusaur-mega: Mega Venusaur
:palkia: Palkia

C
:deoxys-attack:
Deoxys-Attack
:deoxys-speed: Deoxys-Speed
:hoopa-unbound: Hoopa-Unbound
:scizor-mega: Mega Scizor
:reshiram: Reshiram

C-
:giratina-origin: Giratina-Origin
:swampert-mega: Mega Swampert
:zekrom: Zekrom

D-Rank
:ferrothorn: Ferrothorn
:heatran: Heatran
:kangaskhan: Kangaskhan
:mawile: Mawile
:alakazam-mega: Mega Alakazam
:ampharos-mega: Mega Ampharos
:heracross-mega: Mega Heracross
:salamence-mega: Mega Salamence
:pikachu: Pikachu
Hell's Spawn by NOCturnal Hunter
:chansey::chansey::audino-mega::registeel::arceus-ghost::giratina:
Description

Mega Rayquaza and Mega Tyranitar Balance by Kingslayer2779
:tyranitar-mega::giratina::rayquaza-mega::chansey::audino-mega::gengar-mega:
Description

Sandstorm Balance by HeadsILoseTailsYouWin
:rayquaza-mega::registeel::xerneas::regirock::dialga::tyranitar-mega:
Description

Bulky Nuke Offense by E4 Flint
:latios-mega::registeel::chansey::mewtwo-mega-x::rayquaza-mega::giratina:
Description

Semistall by highlighter
:latios-mega::groudon::ho-oh::aegislash::audino-mega::tyranitar-mega:
Description

Balance by cauliflower1
:audino-mega::mewtwo-mega-x::diancie-mega::slowbro-mega::giratina::dialga:
Description

Gengar Balance by dragonite drake
:gengar::diancie-mega::registeel::rayquaza-mega::chansey::aegislash:
Description
 

cityscapes

Take care of yourself.
is a Tiering Contributoris a Community Contributor Alumnus
BW BH


Important Mechanical Changes:
  • Team Preview does not exist.
  • 510 EV limit is no longer enforced.
  • Fairy type does not exist.
  • Terrains do not exist.
  • Critical hit damage is 2x instead of 1.5x.
  • Knock Off's base power is 20.
  • Infiltrator and sound-based moves no longer go through Substitute.
  • Weather summoned by Drought and similar abilities lasts indefinitely.
  • Steel resists Ghost and Dark.
  • Pokestar Studios opponents are usable in battle.
  • The sleep counter resets if the sleeping Pokemon switches out.
  • Defog does not remove hazards on the user's side.
  • Some special moves like Draco Meteor, Hurricane, and Fire Blast have a slightly higher base power. Click here for a full list.
  • Grass-types are no longer immune to powder moves.
Click here for the research thread. It's a bit less organized than more modern ones, so this RoA thread is also recommended.
Moves
  • OHKO Moves
Abilities
  • Wonder Guard
  • Pure/Huge Power
  • Shadow Tag/Arena Trap
Clauses
  • Sleep Clause: Only one Pokemon on the opponent's team can be put to sleep at a time. This excludes self-inflicted sleep or Comatose (Link)
  • Endless Battle Clause: Forcing an endless battle is banned, similar to the rest of PS
S RANK
:latios: Latios (Contrary, weather ability, Mold Breaker, Regenerator)

A RANK
:arceus: Arceus (Mold Breaker, Poison Heal, Unaware)
:chansey: Chansey (Imposter)
:cresselia: Cresselia (Unaware)
:giratina: Giratina (Magic Bounce, Poison Heal, weather setter, Unaware, Normalize)
:groudon: Groudon (Illusion, Prankster, Poison Heal)
:ho-oh: Ho-Oh (Magnet Pull, Magic Guard, Chlorophyll, Tinted Lens, Mold Breaker)
:kyogre: Kyogre (Drizzle, Swift Swim, Poison Heal, Mold Breaker)
:kyurem-black: Kyurem-Black (Adaptability)
:kyurem-white: Kyurem-White (Contrary)
:landorus-therian: Landorus-Therian (Prankster)
:palkia: Palkia (Swift Swim)
:unknown: Pokestar MT (Flash Fire, others)
:unknown: Pokestar MT2 (Flash Fire, others)
:unknown: Pokestar Spirit (Poison Heal, Unaware)
:rayquaza: Rayquaza (Contrary, Illusion, Magic Guard)
:regigigas::slaking: Regigigas, Slaking (Poison Heal, Normalize)
:reshiram: Reshiram (Chlorophyll, Contrary)

B RANK
:archeops: Archeops (Poison Heal, Magic Guard)
:dialga: Dialga (weather setter, Regenerator, Adaptability)
:deoxys-attack: Deoxys-Attack (Sheer Force, etc)
:giratina-origin: Giratina-Origin (Poison Heal, Normalize)
:infernape: Infernape (Tinted Lens, Magnet Pull)
:jirachi: Jirachi (Dry Skin, etc)
:latias: Latias (see Latios)
:lugia: Lugia (Magic Guard, etc)
:mewtwo: Mewtwo (Sheer Force, Adaptability, some others)
:unknown: Pokestar UFO (Magic Bounce)
:registeel: Registeel (weather setter, Magic Bounce, etc)
:shaymin: Shaymin (Poison Heal, Drizzle)
:shedinja: Shedinja (Sturdy)
:tyranitar: Tyranitar (Sand Stream, Levitate, Dry Skin, Poison Heal)
:zekrom: Zekrom (Poison Heal, Contrary)

C RANK
:arceus-flying: Arceus-Flying (Multitype)
:arceus-rock: Arceus-Rock (Multitype)
:arceus-steel: Arceus-Steel (Multitype)
:darkrai: Darkrai (No Guard, Poison Heal)
:deoxys-speed: Deoxys-Speed (Mold Breaker, Poison Heal)
:ferrothorn: Ferrothorn (Flash Fire, Scrappy)
:genesect: Genesect (No Guard)
:gengar: Gengar (Normalize)
:keldeo: Keldeo (Tinted Lens, Drizzle, Poison Heal)
:landorus: Landorus (Sheer Force)
:unknown: Pokestar UFO2 (Mold Breaker)
:raikou: Raikou (Dry Skin)
:scizor: Scizor (Unaware, Dry Skin)
:shaymin-sky: Shaymin-Sky (Sheer Force)
:suicune: Suicune (Magic Bounce, Scrappy)
:terrakion: Terrakion (Magic Guard)
:thundurus-therian: Thundurus-Therian (Sheer Force)

NEEDS FURTHER EXPLORATION
:arceus: Other Multitype Arceus formes
:blissey: Blissey (Imposter, Unaware, Poison Heal)
:pikachu: Pikachu (Imposter)
:unknown: Pokestar Brycen-Man
:unknown: Pokestar F-002
:unknown: Pokestar Monster
:shuckle: Shuckle (Unaware)
None yet
 
Last edited by a moderator:

cityscapes

Take care of yourself.
is a Tiering Contributoris a Community Contributor Alumnus
DPP BH


Important Mechanical Changes:
  • Magic Coat does not block hazards, Taunt, or Torment.
  • Explosion and Self-Destruct have their base power doubled.
  • Encore lasts for 3 to 7 turns.
  • Sturdy does not have its Focus Sash effect and only works as an immunity to OHKO moves like Sheer Cold.
  • Magic Guard makes a Pokemon unable to be fully paralyzed.
  • Tail Glow gives +2 Special Attack, not +3.
  • Wish restores 50% of the recipient's HP, regardless of what the user's max HP is.
  • All of Rotom's forms are Ghost/Electric-type.
Moves
  • OHKO Moves
Abilities
  • Wonder Guard
  • Pure/Huge Power
  • Shadow Tag/Arena Trap
  • Weather + Speed-Boosting Weather Ability
Clauses
  • Ability Clause: No more than two Pokemon with the same ability per team.
  • Endless Battle Clause: Forcing an endless battle is banned, similar to the rest of PS
None yet
None yet
 
Last edited by a moderator:

cityscapes

Take care of yourself.
is a Tiering Contributoris a Community Contributor Alumnus
:rb/snorlax: RBY BH :rb/tauros:


Important Mechanical Changes:
  • Special Attack and Special Defense are compressed into the Special stat.
  • Frozen Pokemon do not thaw naturally, and can only be thawed by Fire Blast, Flamethrower, Ember, and Haze.
  • Waking up from Sleep ends a Pokemon's turn.
  • Toxic poison turns into regular poison when the afflicted Pokemon switches out.
  • In addition to resetting stats on both sides, Haze removes the opposing Pokemon's major status condition and removes minor status such as Reflect and Leech Seed from both sides.
  • Hyper Beam's recharge turn is skipped if the user KOes the target.
  • Substitute is bypassed by Disable, Leech Seed, sleep, primary paralysis, and secondary confusion.
  • Base critical hit rate is (floor[S/2] * 2) / 256, where S is the attacking Pokemon's base Speed. For high-crit moves like Slash and Crabhammer, this rate is multiplied by 4.
  • Pokemon can enter battles pre-statused by equipping the items PAR, SLP, PSN, FRZ, and BRN in the teambuilder importable. This status counts as self-inflicted and does not count towards Sleep Clause and Freeze Clause.
  • Leech Seed saps 1/16 per turn multiplied by the target's current Toxic counter.
  • Roar and Whirlwind do nothing.
  • Reflect and Light Screen last until the user switches out, and double the user's Defense and Special, respectively, when taking hits.
  • Pokemon of up to level 255 can be used.
  • Missingno. can be used.
Click here and here for a comprehensive list of changes. Note that not all of these mechanics are implemented correctly on PS.

This metagame can be played on http://rby.psim.us/.
Moves
  • Bind
  • Clamp
  • Dig
  • Fire Spin
  • Fly
  • Wrap
Pokemon
  • Mewtwo
Clauses
  • Endless Battle Clause: Forcing an endless battle is banned, similar to the rest of PS
  • Freeze Clause: Only one Pokemon on the opponent's team can be frozen at a time. This excludes self-inflicted freeze.
  • OHKO Clause: OHKO moves are banned.
  • Sleep Clause: Only one Pokemon on the opponent's team can be put to sleep at a time. This excludes self-inflicted sleep.
None yet
None yet
 
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cityscapes

Take care of yourself.
is a Tiering Contributoris a Community Contributor Alumnus
More of a quick question, I know BH originated in Gen 5, and you included Gen 4.

Could you confirm if there ever will be a Gen 3 created?

I feel Gen 1 is pretty limited to just Mewtwo and Amnesia being banned, Mew / Starmie as S Tier, and everything else would very much represent OU - Taurus, Chansey, Gengar, Alakazam, etc.

Gen 2 has some potential via the Dark and Steel types keeping Psychics from dominating, and the addition of held items, but pretty much only Berserk Gene, and Leftovers, or a niche Light Ball, Thick Club, or Rest Miracle Berry sets would be used. Although new Legendaries like Lugia and Ho-Oh would balance out Mewtwo, and offer helpful movepool additions like Sacred Fire and Aeroblast for the Gen 1 Birds in Moltres, and Zapdos.

I feel Gen 3 offers a good starting point for BH, since it has more viable items, such as the new Choice Band, and Soul Dew or old favorites like Leftovers. The additional moves in Calm Mind also mean it can enable bulky setup from the SpA side of the spectrum, while the implementation of Abilities can keep things balanced such as Flash Fire or Levitate enabling Registeel much like it did in BH Gen 7.

Most importantly many of the mainstays of BH 5-6 Gen were from Gen 3, which goes to show how relevant the actual Pokemon are from this point onward, where we finally get to see the Pokedex showcasing enough diversity in expanded types with appropriate stat distribution

I think Gen 3, for sure deserves a BH, and I wanted to know who will create it?

Gen 2 may deserve one, but it is more up in the air with how limited the movesand Pokedex are.

Thank you.
gen 3 is weird because abilities are tied to personality value meaning you have to use legal abilities. ti told me to only put 4-7 cause the other bh gens are strange, but if a playerbase forms i'm open to making posts in the future

edit: also feel free to discuss gens 1-3 here
 

cityscapes

Take care of yourself.
is a Tiering Contributoris a Community Contributor Alumnus
Celesteela @ Safety Goggles
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moongeist Beam
- Spikes
- Haze
- Topsy-Turvy

gen 7 noms. not sure whos running the vr, am i the only one in charge of these or should i be forming a council? either way lemme just clarify that these arent official yet and just represent a first opinion

:mewtwo-mega-x: down to a: mmx really struggles to get openings vs offense and has lots of pretty terrible matchups vs common mons like mmy, gar, gira, and xern. most teams have more than enough counterplay for this mon and it really struggles to get things done. s just feels way too high for this.
:xerneas: up to s: extremely splashable pokemon that finds itself on nearly all teams due to how insanely customizable it is. has both "glue" sets (prank, pixilate, less aggressive ph) and sets that can be built around (teravolt, aggressive ph, mg) which are all super viable. great utility both defensively and offensively, which are expanded further upon by the best sets. overall incredible pokemon and i support a rise
:diancie-mega: down to a-: diancie is pretty frail, gets a lot done but it's pretty reliant on passive teammates to work well. hazards on it further compounds this issue cause you need a bounce teammate that's kept healthy. this pokemon works only on whiff-punish teams with momentum-seeking defensive cores or heavier offense teams that use things like explosion and sash mg, and neither of these are super reliable.
:yveltal: up to a-: subpar mnm main
:kangaskhan: down to b: no defensive utility outside of like specs gar, loses to chip and ability suppression, and needs excessive support to actually get things done cause you can't switch into anything. it's decent against the more passive teams but those are falling out of favor and even then it doesn't feel very reliable.
:slowbro-mega: down to b-: its hard to justify using this mon when it loses so hard to gar/xern while not even offering gira's ability to cover ogre and especially mmy. you dont need a dedicated mmx switchin in this meta so it just feels like a mediocre slow uturner that loses to hazards.
:greninja-ash: up to b-: pretty versatile between sf/specs/band, great speed tier, pretty good defensive utility, doesnt hard lose to xern. feels a bit higher than the rest of c.
:hoopa-unbound: :palkia: :xurkitree: down to d: these are just bad and don't get used. i had the idea for ph qd xurk so i might play around w that but all of these have numerous issues and lack the flexibility to get around them.

:suicune: :lugia: up to c: these guys are cool and unfortunately didnt make it thru the final vr update. both have been featured on a successful shed team and ive used them on other teams as well. im a big fan of the spin/smash/recover/boomburst modest sky plate lugia, it can give weakened offense teams a lot of trouble while also doing general lugia things, and is really easy to imposter proof. suicune is an incredible midground pokemon and pairs excellently with good mons like xern and pdon; the physical bulk makes such a big difference in beating the things you want to beat. lugia is just a really reliable xern counter and also beats mmx.
:zeraora: up to d: i believe this is widely seen as the best veil setter? i think it should be ranked at least for that. its also prob the least fragile mon faster than mmy (not counting aero here cause he has weaknesses)
:reshiram: up to d: the turboblaze leftovers set from gen 8 has proven to be pretty solid in gen 7 as well, cool spikes setter that annoys everyone. also has dangerous, if cheesy, setup sets that are pretty decent at outright winning games. much better pokemon with the introduction of modern era xern counterplay.
:tapu-lele: up to d: im not super confident on this nom but this team was scary if not consistent. i feel like lele builds have potential, although this team is the only evidence we have of that rn so again i don't want to be too hasty here.

discussion appreciated
 

anaconja

long day at job
is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
Celesteela @ Safety Goggles
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moongeist Beam
- Spikes
- Haze
- Topsy-Turvy
nooooooooooooooooooooo

gen 7 noms. not sure whos running the vr, am i the only one in charge of these or should i be forming a council? either way lemme just clarify that these arent official yet and just represent a first opinion

:mewtwo-mega-x: down to a: mmx really struggles to get openings vs offense and has lots of pretty terrible matchups vs common mons like mmy, gar, gira, and xern. most teams have more than enough counterplay for this mon and it really struggles to get things done. s just feels way too high for this.
:xerneas: up to s: extremely splashable pokemon that finds itself on nearly all teams due to how insanely customizable it is. has both "glue" sets (prank, pixilate, less aggressive ph) and sets that can be built around (teravolt, aggressive ph, mg) which are all super viable. great utility both defensively and offensively, which are expanded further upon by the best sets. overall incredible pokemon and i support a rise
:diancie-mega: down to a-: diancie is pretty frail, gets a lot done but it's pretty reliant on passive teammates to work well. hazards on it further compounds this issue cause you need a bounce teammate that's kept healthy. this pokemon works only on whiff-punish teams with momentum-seeking defensive cores or heavier offense teams that use things like explosion and sash mg, and neither of these are super reliable.
:yveltal: up to a-: subpar mnm main
:kangaskhan: down to b: no defensive utility outside of like specs gar, loses to chip and ability suppression, and needs excessive support to actually get things done cause you can't switch into anything. it's decent against the more passive teams but those are falling out of favor and even then it doesn't feel very reliable.
:slowbro-mega: down to b-: its hard to justify using this mon when it loses so hard to gar/xern while not even offering gira's ability to cover ogre and especially mmy. you dont need a dedicated mmx switchin in this meta so it just feels like a mediocre slow uturner that loses to hazards.
:greninja-ash: up to b-: pretty versatile between sf/specs/band, great speed tier, pretty good defensive utility, doesnt hard lose to xern. feels a bit higher than the rest of c.
:hoopa-unbound: :palkia: :xurkitree: down to d: these are just bad and don't get used. i had the idea for ph qd xurk so i might play around w that but all of these have numerous issues and lack the flexibility to get around them.

:suicune: :lugia: up to c: these guys are cool and unfortunately didnt make it thru the final vr update. both have been featured on a successful shed team and ive used them on other teams as well. im a big fan of the spin/smash/recover/boomburst modest sky plate lugia, it can give weakened offense teams a lot of trouble while also doing general lugia things, and is really easy to imposter proof. suicune is an incredible midground pokemon and pairs excellently with good mons like xern and pdon; the physical bulk makes such a big difference in beating the things you want to beat. lugia is just a really reliable xern counter and also beats mmx.
:zeraora: up to d: i believe this is widely seen as the best veil setter? i think it should be ranked at least for that. its also prob the least fragile mon faster than mmy (not counting aero here cause he has weaknesses)
:reshiram: up to d: the turboblaze leftovers set from gen 8 has proven to be pretty solid in gen 7 as well, cool spikes setter that annoys everyone. also has dangerous, if cheesy, setup sets that are pretty decent at outright winning games. much better pokemon with the introduction of modern era xern counterplay.
:tapu-lele: up to d: im not super confident on this nom but this team was scary if not consistent. i feel like lele builds have potential, although this team is the only evidence we have of that rn so again i don't want to be too hasty here.

discussion appreciated
:mewtwo-mega-x:: Agree, lately it feels like it competes more and more with MMY (mostly mixed MG) who outspeeds other MMX and Gengar-Mega while hitting similar targets. MMX is still good with TC and Technician/Sniper, though.
:xerneas:: Agree, it's such a versatile mon. I think PH sets can be separated into three categories: utility (no setup or QD + 2 utililty moves), offensive (QD), and aggressive (Smash).
(i realized that i mostly agree with these opinions so ill just list some of my own opinions)

Rises:
:yveltal:: I think that this mon can go higher, to A - it's in a similar boat with Xerneas, the same offensive/defensive split it has makes it just as versatile (defensive: Prankster, Corrosion, FC is niche but somewhat viable; mix: PH, Spin Aerilate; offensive: Triage, Explosion Aerilate, Adaptability, TC, MG). It's also a very solid check to Gengar, not being weak to Fighting like Tyranitar and Arceus while actually resisting its STAB and hitting it super-effectively unlike Kyogre. It suffers from an SR and Electric/Ice weakness but that's about it.

:magearna:: Not sure why this isn't higher. It's a Steel type that can take a hit from MMX and actually OHKO it back, and is much more versatile than its other Steel wall companions in Magic Bounce, Pixilate, and Regenerator. I've found Flash Fire to be effective as well (particularly to cteam Groudon), and Levitate is a more niche but still viable set to evade Ground-type coverage, which feels like the most common type right now. I'd put it in B+.

:arceus:: Solid check to Gengar and special PH attackers. Its best set is probably PH with Facade/Spectral Thief/Spiky Shield/Filler (could be Taunt, Defog, hazards). Niche defensive sets like Regenvest and Unaware are also useable. I'd put it in B.

:scizor-mega:: With Fur Coat, it's a great check to MMX and fairly solid one to MMY and Xerneas, and has a lot going for it (Steel that isn't weak to Ground, U-Turn STAB, not passive, pretty slow). Its weakness to Fire is somewhat of a benefit because that makes it easier to pressure when Imposter copies it, but its special bulk, while enough to check resists, is pretty bad against neutral hits. I'd raise it to C, maybe even B-.

Drops:
:necrozma-dusk-mane:: I've never seen this lately, and for good reason: offensive sets are not very threatening (setup) or are outclassed by Kartana (Choice Band), while defensive sets are either momentum sinks (trapping FC) or too easily taken advantage of by Imposter (Regenvest, pivoting FC if that's a thing). I'd put it in B, because at least it has offensive presence unlike Aegislash.

:celesteela:: This mon is as viable as Regigigas and Kyu-B? It's super passive and doesn't really have much going for it over Magearna other than a Ground immunity (but most attackers with a Ground attack also have something to hit Celesteela anyway so it doesn't matter all that much). Other than with niche sets like Triage or whatever tf SL put at the top of his post it's pretty unappealing. I'd put it with Aegislash in B-.

:audino-mega:: I don't know what this mon does other than be a stat stick. On paper it seems good, but in practice it's terribly passive and in that regard overshadowed by Xerneas (as a Fairy), Magearna (as a Magic Bouncer), and Xerneas/Arceus (as a PH user). The only niche I see it having is being an Unaware user to wall Triage (because Triage sucks), but that's about it. I'd drop it to B-.

I could also see Stored Power going over Rapid Spin on Lugia and Improofing with Tyranitar. To better Improof, you could even switch Boomburst to Judgement and then use Adaptability which makes it almost as strong as -ate Boomburst, while boosting its other STAB (and weakening Imposter), since you are using the Sky Plate anyways.

I know you lose -ate Rapid Spin, but I feel you probably want a Pokemon not weak to Stealth Rock in the first place, to switch in and remove it.
Lugia is primarily a defensive mon so it has the room and the bulk to use Rapid Spin; unblockable Rapid Spin is Aerilate Lugia's primary niche, Shell Smash + Boomburst helps it heavily pressure offense but is its secondary niche. If you want a strong Shell Smasher then choosing a 90 SpA mon is probably the wrong choice. If you really need an offensive setup sweeper that can come in on MMX and Xerneas then you could use something like Gengar-Mega.
 
:mewtwo-mega-x: I'm ok with a drop to either A+ or A
:xerneas: No comment, I recognize how good and splashable it is but I'm not super convinced that it is a tier above all the other A+ mons.
:diancie-mega: Agree
:yveltal: Agree with acml
:kangaskhan-mega: Agree, there are other breakers that do around the same work while pulling their weight in many other matchups.
:slowbro-mega: Agree
:greninja-ash: Agree, 132 speed tier is huge and its a solid breaker.
:hoopa-unbound::xurkitree: Agree
:palkia: I feel like this is still ok as its like offensive Pogre but it breaks past Dragons so much easier.
:lugia::zeraora: Agree
Others IDK never used.
:magearna::arceus: Agree
:scizor-mega: Agree, MegaZor + Plume Ho-Oh is a solid core that is pretty splashable. Not to mention that MegaZor is one of the few mons that can check MegaChomp (discourage blades teammate required).
:audino-mega::celesteela: Agree
:necrozma-dusk-mane: I disagree but I would like to know why you think its Trapping defensive sets are momentum sinks.

Own noms:
:gengar-mega: S, the single most defining mon on Offense and is incredibly splashable on teams that need some strong offensive presence while being improof. It can pretty much break every single check to it with a viable set. Also can improof a couple of strong offensive mons too which is super good for role compression.
:ho-oh: B+, single best Xern check probably and checks other stuff too.
:regigigas: Rise? Like people said its underexplored and its not easy to punish rn. Soft checks other PH specials, ghost immunity, and soft checks certain mmy as well. Really appreciates Zyg usage over Tina too.
:rayquaza: C, Scarf Download is a great set.
 

Champion Leon

Banned deucer.
:mewtwo-mega-x: I'm ok with a drop to either A+ or A
:xerneas: No comment, I recognize how good and splashable it is but I'm not super convinced that it is a tier above all the other A+ mons.
:diancie-mega: Agree
:yveltal: Agree with acml
:kangaskhan-mega: Agree, there are other breakers that do around the same work while pulling their weight in many other matchups.
:slowbro-mega: Agree
:greninja-ash: Agree, 132 speed tier is huge and its a solid breaker.
:hoopa-unbound::xurkitree: Agree
:palkia: I feel like this is still ok as its like offensive Pogre but it breaks past Dragons so much easier.
:lugia::zeraora: Agree
Others IDK never used.
:magearna::arceus: Agree
:scizor-mega: Agree, MegaZor + Plume Ho-Oh is a solid core that is pretty splashable. Not to mention that MegaZor is one of the few mons that can check MegaChomp (discourage blades teammate required).
:audino-mega::celesteela: Agree
:necrozma-dusk-mane: I disagree but I would like to know why you think its Trapping defensive sets are momentum sinks.

Own noms:
:gengar-mega: S, the single most defining mon on Offense and is incredibly splashable on teams that need some strong offensive presence while being improof. It can pretty much break every single check to it with a viable set. Also can improof a couple of strong offensive mons too which is super good for role compression.
:ho-oh: B+, single best Xern check probably and checks other stuff too.
:regigigas: Rise? Like people said its underexplored and its not easy to punish rn. Soft checks other PH specials, ghost immunity, and soft checks certain mmy as well. Really appreciates Zyg usage over Tina too.
:rayquaza: C, Scarf Download is a great set.
What about Refrigerate Kyogre-Primal, over Palkia?

I feel like it would better break past Dragons because it doesn’t fear STAB Dragon moves, and it’s Boomburst is literally stronger in base power than even a STAB Clanging Scales.

Further, Kyogre-Primal still resists it’s own coverage, so Imposter cannot get a kick out of your Dragon coverage, whereas Palkia needs Soundproof, or Judgment Draco Plate to not die to Imposter.

Kyogre’s superior stats, and lack of weakness to Fairy also means it isn’t forced out by Xerneas, nor the faster Diancie-Mega.

I like Palkia, but if you were referring to the Specs Adaptability set, you may as well use Kyogre-Primal, since nothing is immune to Ice, so they cannot just switch in a Fairy-type.

With 168 base power surpassing even Steam Eruption, its like Kyogre-Primal has STAB Ice, without the type drawback.

However, I understand that Kyurem-Black/White, Reshiram, and Palkia itself are not weak to Ice, however Palkia is a rare sight.

Without Soundproof, Kyurem-White KOs Palkia regardless, so it comes down to Speed, meaning you cannot risk a +SpA nature on Palkia, in order to outrun Kyurem-W, Black, etc.

To give some perspective, unless Palkia is using Adaptability, a Kyogre-Primal with Technician Frost Breath is on par with Palkia’s Clanging Scales, enabling it to use other moves like Water Shuriken for priority:

252+ SpA Life Orb Technician Kyogre-Primal Frost Breath vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Giratina on a critical hit: 377-445 (74.8 - 88.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Life Orb Palkia Clanging Scales vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Giratina: 398-471 (78.9 - 93.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

If using Palkia with Specs Adaptability, then Specs Boomburst on Kyogre-Primal hits nearly as hard.

Further, Boomburst can break RegenVest Yveltal after Stealth Rock, as well as many dedicated switch ins like Ferrothorn.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Refrigerate Kyogre-Primal Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Arceus: 268-316 (60.3 - 71.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Palkia Clanging Scales vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Arceus: 306-362 (68.9 - 81.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

But if Palkia is meant to outspeed Kyurem-W/B, Reshiram, etc. and not get hit 1HKOed by their STAB, then it is really forced to run a +Speed.

252 SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Palkia Clanging Scales vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Arceus: 278-328 (62.6 - 73.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth

Now, only a mere 2.7% points more damage than Kyogre-Primal, while Kyogre-P doesn’t fear them at all, beyond Bolt Strike Kyurem-Black.

TLDR: Why not just Kyogre-Primal?
You can also run Pixelate to still KO Yveltal, and hit Palkia, as well as both Kyurems for the KO, but then you are not resistant to Imposter.

In either case, it can do what Palkia does without being weak to Dragon coverage, and it’s non-Dragon/Water Attacks hit harder since Palkia’s reliance on Adaptability doesn’t boost its other coverage moves.

Kyogre-Primal @ Choice Specs
Ability: Pixilate / Refrigerate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Steam Eruption / Water Spout
- Boomburst
- Blue Flare / Volt Switch
- Moongeist Beam
 
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Champion Leon

Banned deucer.
Gen 6 BH - Gale Wings enables Flying moves to go first at any HP, which really benefits Roost as well as Judgment.

Rayquaza-Mega @ Sky Plate
Ability: Gale Wings
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Rash Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 SpD
- Judgment
- Tail Glow
- Earth Power
- Roost / Blue Flare*

*Blue Flare for Levitating Steels.

While Oblivion Wing is the standard set, I find that Improofing without reliance on Substitute enables Rayquaza to hit harder, and always go first, while Imposter will be KOed with minor chip damage.

+3 252+ SpA Sky Plate Rayquaza-Mega Judgment vs. 252 HP / 0- SpD Eviolite Chansey: 588-693 (83.5 - 98.4%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

While you could opt for Max HP, the issue becomes outspeeding slower dragons like Dialga, who are KOed by Earth Power.

Keep in mind that since there is a 510 EV limits, you are not sacrificing as much as you would in other generations. You are simply opting for lower SpD so you can KO Imposter with a STAB Tail Glow Judgment, while Imposter has no Flying STAB due to lack of Sky Plate.

This set can be used as an alternative to Aerilate, considering there is no Ice Scales option, and boosting Judgment by x 2.5 really allows it to break Pokemon that a weaker Extreme Speed or Oblivion Wing could not.

This is mostly due to the EV limit, preventing all Pokemon from maxing both their Defenses along with HP, and nets it KOs it wouldn’t normally achieve in other generations (I.e. doing just fine without Blue Flare for Steels), still, even with Max EVs on some of the premier SpD walls of the generation, they would rely on Unaware to not get KO’d

+3 252+ SpA Rayquaza-Mega Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Registeel: 372-438 (102.1 - 120.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+3 252+ SpA Sky Plate Rayquaza-Mega Judgment vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Lugia: 364-429 (87.5 - 103.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

+3 252+ SpA Sky Plate Rayquaza-Mega Judgment vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Cresselia: 412-486 (92.7 - 109.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Ultimately, if Rayquaza can KO these Pokemon, not much else stands in it’s way thanks to Celesteela not existing yet, and the traditionally offensive Mega Aerodactyl getting KO’d:

+3 252+ SpA Sky Plate Rayquaza-Mega Judgment vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Aerodactyl-Mega: 358-422 (118.9 - 140.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Lastly, due to max Speed, you still outspeed even Prankster Haze Lugia, are immune to Nature Power -> Earthquake, and are ultimately blocked just by Unaware, and are only outsped by Fake Speed, since Triage didn’t exist then.
 
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anaconja

long day at job
is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
:necrozma-dusk-mane: I disagree but I would like to know why you think its Trapping defensive sets are momentum sinks.
Most of the time NDM just kinda sits there and often has to use recovery after getting hit by a physical attack, so it's easy for the opponent to just switch in something to beat it. It's like Melmetal in Gen 8 but without an Ice Scales partner to fall back on and with 100% more Imposter to dissuade using pivoting.
Own noms:
:gengar-mega: S, the single most defining mon on Offense and is incredibly splashable on teams that need some strong offensive presence while being improof. It can pretty much break every single check to it with a viable set. Also can improof a couple of strong offensive mons too which is super good for role compression.
While it's very useable on hyper offense, I never really have room for it in bulkier offense teams mostly because it doesn't have much bulk and no room for recovery (I've used PH Giratina-O, though, shoutout to Chazm for that set). I disagree on this nom because I don't see Gengar on the same level as Xerneas - the latter can run any kind of role, from defensive to utility to offensive, while the former has two roles: setup and choice item. I think it's fine in the A+ ranking.
:ho-oh: B+, single best Xern check probably and checks other stuff too.
Agree with this nom, but the best Xerneas counter would probably be FF Venusaur-Mega - it resists Electric and Water while taking neutral from Ground.
:regigigas: Rise? Like people said its underexplored and its not easy to punish rn. Soft checks other PH specials, ghost immunity, and soft checks certain mmy as well. Really appreciates Zyg usage over Tina too.
I'm not sure about that, there is also the rise of Strength Sap users like Xerneas (a PH user Regi can't check) and Groudon, plus Magearna has risen over the other Steel-types. Normalize is a potent set, though.
:rayquaza: C, Scarf Download is a great set.
Haven't tried this so I can't say.

couple other noms:
:zekrom: to B: no way this is as viable as aegislash lol, this rank was probably made only keeping smash (galvanize, adaptability) and band sets in mind when there are other cool sets like Adapt/PH STAB + spikes or SF
:registeel: to B+: passive mfer, magearna may not have the bulk but at least it isn't complete setup bait
 

Champion Leon

Banned deucer.
I think Necrozma-Ultra should be promoted to B- Rank.

Reasoning: With the ban of Rayquaza-Mega, there opened up a huge hole in the role for fast Dragon-type that could legit mix sweep.

While lacking the raw power of a STAB -ate move, Necrozma didn’t possess a crippling Stealth Rock weakness, and instead packed STAB Photon Geyser, allowing it to simultaneously bypass Unaware, and hit from its equally powerful Atk stat, without resorting to Psystrike to bypass RegenVest.

See posts for sets like these:
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/creative-and-underrated-sets.3592203/page-13#post-8154217

Necrozma-Ultra @ Life Orb / Ultranecrozium Z
Ability: Adaptability
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Naughty Nature
- Photon Geyser
- V-Create
- Clanging Scales
- Shell Smash / Filler Coverage Move

With the ability to wallbreak pre-set up, and decimate it’s foes with a spare moveslot for added coverage, Necrozma-Ultra doesn't just substitute for Raquaza-Mega, it carves it’s own niche, and can even resort to its signature Z-Move for the absolute nuke, that when paired with Adaptability, becomes 400 base power and ignores all abilities, including Fur Coat.

Lastly, seeing it in the same category of Steelix-Mega, Sabeleye-Mega, Swampert-Mega, Metagross-Mega, and Tapu-Fini is a literal underestimation of what Necrozma-Ultra brings to the table.

Necrozma-Ultra has the stats, STAB, Z-move, and unpredictability to at least compare to Zekrom, Solgaleo, and Blaziken-Mega - not limiting itself to one sided offense.

Overall, it’s better than its C-tank counterparts, and deserves a place just a little higher since it’s biggest rival for a mixed Dragon wall breaker got banned. Sorry, Rayquaza-Base just doesn’t cut it.
 
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anaconja

long day at job
is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
I think Necrozma-Ultra should be promoted to B- Rank.

Reasoning: With the ban of Rayquaza-Mega, there opened up a huge hole in the role for fast Dragon-type that could legit mix sweep.
Rayquaza-Mega's main STAB was Flying - its three broken sets (TC, Aerilate, Triage) all aimed to boost its Flying-type attacks (Dragon Ascent, Oblivion Wing, Boomburst). Dragon STAB is the icing on the cake to hit Giratina and Zygarde, sure, but saying Rayquaza was used for being a Dragon-type isn't very accurate.

Looking at some stats, Oblivion Wing was used on 42% of Rayquaza sets, Boomburst 35%, Extreme Speed 26%, and Dragon Ascent 14%. Boomburst is used more often than all of its Dragon attacks combined (Draco Meteor at 13%, Dragon Hammer at 8%, Core Enforcer at 6%, Clanging Scales at 3%, and Revelation Dance at 1%), so it's safe to say that Rayquaza-Mega is primarily a Flying-type breaker. For this reason, it's not very valid to compare Rayquaza and Necrozma-Ultra.

While lacking the raw power of a STAB -ate move, Necrozma didn’t possess a crippling Stealth Rock weakness, and instead packed STAB Photon Geyser, allowing it to simultaneously bypass Unaware, and hit from its equally powerful Atk stat, without resorting to Psystrike to bypass RegenVest.
Unaware was never a good option in the first place, only being used to improof stuff like Triage or Shell Smash users because the ability becomes deadweight against teams who rely on choiced breakers or otherwise don't use setup (which is quite the percentage). Prankster, on the other hand, is useful for scouting sets since you can switch into an attack and recover quickly, and one can build their team to have resistances to common setup mons in case their Prankster mon doesn't have a favorable matchup.

With the ability to wallbreak pre-set up, and decimate it’s foes with a spare moveslot for added coverage, Necrozma-Ultra doesn't just substitute for Raquaza-Mega, it carves it’s own niche, and can even resort to its signature Z-Move for the absolute nuke, that when paired with Adaptability, becomes 400 base power and ignores all abilities, including Fur Coat.

Lastly, seeing it in the same category of Steelix-Mega, Sabeleye-Mega, Swampert-Mega, Metagross-Mega, and Tapu-Fini is a literal underestimation of what Necrozma-Ultra brings to the table.
The two had two entirely different niches in the first place: as I've pointed out, Rayquaza-Mega is a Flying-type attacker while Necrozma-Ultra is a Psychic and Dragon-type attacker.

I'd say Necrozma-Ultra is more like a competitor to Mewtwo-Mega-Y, trading Speed and Special Attack for a better defensive typing, more ability to threaten Giratina and Zygarde (the use is pretty debatable, considering sets that aren't Regenvest get 2HKOd by MMY's Fairy or Ice coverage on most of its sets), and more ability to go mixed (though this is very debatable looking at MMY's SF and MG mixed sets). Its awkward speed tier hurts its viability - MMY has no problem being against MMX or Gengar, while Necrozma-Ultra is forced out.

I think being in the same rank as Steelix-Mega, Sableye-Mega, Swampert-Mega, Metagross-Mega, and Tapu Fini fits it pretty well, considering they are situational substitutes for more consistent mons (Magearna/Registeel, Giratina, Kyogre-Primal/Groudon-Primal, Necrozma-Dusk-Mane, and Kyogre-Primal/Xerneas respectively).

gen 7 noms. not sure whos running the vr, am i the only one in charge of these or should i be forming a council?
Do you have the answer to this yet?
 

Champion Leon

Banned deucer.
Rayquaza-Mega's main STAB was Flying - its three broken sets (TC, Aerilate, Triage) all aimed to boost its Flying-type attacks (Dragon Ascent, Oblivion Wing, Boomburst). Dragon STAB is the icing on the cake to hit Giratina and Zygarde, sure, but saying Rayquaza was used for being a Dragon-type isn't very accurate.

Looking at some stats, Oblivion Wing was used on 42% of Rayquaza sets, Boomburst 35%, Extreme Speed 26%, and Dragon Ascent 14%. Boomburst is used more often than all of its Dragon attacks combined (Draco Meteor at 13%, Dragon Hammer at 8%, Core Enforcer at 6%, Clanging Scales at 3%, and Revelation Dance at 1%), so it's safe to say that Rayquaza-Mega is primarily a Flying-type breaker. For this reason, it's not very valid to compare Rayquaza and Necrozma-Ultra.
Rayquaza-Mega was never just another Flying-type, it relied on both of its STABs to also fill in the Dragon-type, so there would be less need for other "super effective against Dragon"-coverage on your team. This meant you wouldn't need to worry about using Garchomp-Mega, or Reshiram, since Rayquaza could still pack their Dragon moves, plus their secondary STAB as anti-Steel coverage, while maintaining its role as a Flying type.

As an example of using its Dragon STAB for coverage: If you chose -ate Rayquaza-Mega then you didn’t really need Diancie-Mega, since it’s STAB covered what Diancie-Mega did - priority Flying hit MMX, and Dragon handled Dragons. Picking another Flying-type like Charizard-Mega-Y for Special Attack, or Aerodactyl-Mega for Attack, would not provide enough damage to pick apart Giratina, etc. due to a lack of Dragon-type STAB.
Afterall, Prankster Giratina could use Strength Sap, or Fur Coat to tank Aerodactyl-Mega's Head Smash, and could Haze out Charizard-Mega-Y's Tail Glow attempts, but it cannot just sit and tank a Draco Meteor from Rayquaza-Mega.

Unlike Kyurem-B/W, its Dragon-type STAB was not redundant with its other STAB; Dragon STAB was a useful type for it to take advantage of, including deterring Imposter from being able to freely switch-in.
Unaware was never a good option in the first place, only being used to improof stuff like Triage or Shell Smash users because the ability becomes deadweight against teams who rely on choiced breakers or otherwise don't use setup (which is quite the percentage). Prankster, on the other hand, is useful for scouting sets since you can switch into an attack and recover quickly, and one can build their team to have resistances to common setup mons in case their Prankster mon doesn't have a favorable matchup.
*Unaware may not be ideal on most defensive mons, but ones that posses at least 1 resist / immunity to a Moldy move such as Yveltal, or Chansey are definitely viable, and have been seen enough for team building consideration.

*Also, consider that sometimes self-improofing meant using Unaware mons for dealing with their Imposter of your own Pokemon; other times it meant that if you couldn't use your own Imposter, such as vs Poison Heal, or Unburden sets, you would need to have something come in safely and force them out.

The difference between Prankster Haze and Unaware is that you can send in Unaware after they have set up, while Prankster Haze requires a safe pivot (or a teammate getting KO'd) in order for it to be effective. This ultimately means, unless you slow pivot it in the turn they set up, you just lost a Pokemon. If you have Unaware, they can be sent in at any point, which matters if you didn't realize they were going to use Belly Drum, Shell Smash, etc. and now realize it isn't safe to send in your Prankster user, since their boosted attack might be a KO.

If they have set up, like with Unburden Belly Drum, that more than negates the "resistances to common setup mons", and with Shell Smash mixed sweeping is very easy to exploit the weaker Defense, while moves like Power Trip can turn what seems like a safe resist teammate, into getting nuetrally or super effectively nuked. You prepare for a "common set-up mon", but you cannot possibly prepare for all potential coverage moves., as most offensive set-up movesets have multiple slashes per attack...

Lastly, you don't need a set-up move of your own... many offensive Pokemon pack Spectral Thief for coverage, such as MMX, and thus can take advantage of it, so just because the foe doesn't use Shell Smash doesn't mean it's not capable of getting boosts. Plus you can pack Unaware without sacrificing its primary function, as Yveltal serves as a hard stop to Gengar-Mega and MMX thanks to its STAB and unique typing; regardless of its ability.
The two had two entirely different niches in the first place: as I've pointed out, Rayquaza-Mega is a Flying-type attacker while Necrozma-Ultra is a Psychic and Dragon-type attacker.

I'd say Necrozma-Ultra is more like a competitor to Mewtwo-Mega-Y, trading Speed and Special Attack for a better defensive typing, more ability to threaten Giratina and Zygarde (the use is pretty debatable, considering sets that aren't Regenvest get 2HKOd by MMY's Fairy or Ice coverage on most of its sets), and more ability to go mixed (though this is very debatable looking at MMY's SF and MG mixed sets). Its awkward speed tier hurts its viability - MMY has no problem being against MMX or Gengar, while Necrozma-Ultra is forced out.
The issue of using Necrozma-Ultra is that it’s STAB Dragon coverage allows it to bypass Giratina and Zygarde without resorting to coverage moves, while STAB Photon Geyser breaks Shedinja without feeling forced, and can use its Atk stat while MMY cannot with the same move.
*This frees up its fourth moveslot so it can cover what MMY cannot. For example, it doesn’t need Bolt Strike to hit Kyogre-Primal, because a nuetral hit off of Photon Geyser is a KO on its own, it doesn’t need to debate between Moonblast or Ice Beam (SF MMY) to break Zygarde-Complete, as Clanging Scales is self-sufficient.

It has a greater ability to go mixed because of its Z-Move, it's "anything fits" fourth slot, and the fact it literally has equal stats... Also, what does a 2HKO accomplish?
Prankster Destiny Bond, or slow pivotting in a 2HKO'd mon means it can survive to revenge set-up sweep, or just lower its offense (Parting Shot, King's Shield/Strength Sap for mixed MMY), etc. You might be forced to switch out - best case scenario, or are KOed - worst case scenario; not the opponent.
Any survival is an opportunity for them to plan accordingly, I think its definitely worth removing the comparison if they cannot land the same KOs, and let's be honest, Mewtwo cannot run the same moves Necrozma-Ultra can, and thus it wont have the same coverage, or KOs to really draw comparisons. For example, MMY Ice Beam is not super effective vs Kyurem-Black, Kyurem-White, Palkia, etc. so that gives them turns to KO or set-up. Clanging Scales is a KO, so Tough Claws Kyurem-B, that could set-up shift Gear on MMY, or Palkia that could Shell Smash are not going to risk staying in on a clear KO move.

This also meant SF MMY suffered from 4MSS, such as deciding whether to use Moongeist Beam / Photon Geyser / Psychic for its Shedinja/STAB coverage. The secondary-typing removes the "filler coverage move", and justifies not only Adaptability, but being free to cover more than MMY.

If MMY relies on Pixelate or Refrigerate, then it’s other moves suffer a loss in power and enable Adaptability’s Clanging Scales to catch up in power, which has much more neutral coverage as V-Create can handle Steels, and it’s fourth move can offer Precipice Blades for Flash Fire.

It would be more accurate to compare Dazzling, Magic Guard, Sheer Force, etc. Mewtwo-Mega-Y to Deoxys-A as a frail sweeper that can match the same sets due to the same typing, only swapping slight SpA for Speed/Atk. Now being able to run Sheer Force Life Orb sets with even greater effect in mixed sweeping (such as Bolt Strike), and outspeeding Beedrill-Mega, etc.
I think being in the same rank as Steelix-Mega, Sableye-Mega, Swampert-Mega, Metagross-Mega, and Tapu Fini fits it pretty well, considering they are situational substitutes for more consistent mons (Magearna/Registeel, Giratina, Kyogre-Primal/Groudon-Primal, Necrozma-Dusk-Mane, and Kyogre-Primal/Xerneas respectively).
How does it fit it pretty well to be in C, if it is more than a situational substitute for more consistent mons?

Rayquaza-Mega may not have relied strictly on its Dragon STAB, but neither does Necrozma-Ultra, they both used each of their STABs to great effect, and meant, at the very least, you could teambuild without having to pile on the Dragon-coverage since their STAB alone made it less of a priority for the remainder of your team, especially if they were self-Improof such as Soundproof Clanging Scales, or Unburden sets.

Point is, yes, Rayquaza-Mega used its Flying more, but it benefitted from having a dual Dragon-type for STAB- if it were a pure Flying-type it would have been less effective; Necrozma-Ultra can say the same about its Dragon-type STAB- hitting Psychic resists, and Immunities like Psychic and Dark-types, without reliance on coverage moves that it would need if it were only a Psychic-type.
 
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anaconja

long day at job
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Rayquaza-Mega was never just another Flying-type, it relied on both of its STABs to also fill in the Dragon-type, so there would be less need for other Dragon-coverage on your team; you wouldn't need to worry about using Garchomp-Mega, or Reshiram, since Rayquaza could pack their STAB for coverage, while maintaining its role as a Flying type.

For example: If you chose -ate Rayquaza-Mega then you didn’t really need Diancie-Mega, since it’s STAB covered what Diancie-Mega did - priority Flying hit MMX, and Dragon handled Dragons.

Unlike Kyurem-B/W, its Dragon-type STAB was not redundant with its other STAB; Dragon STAB was a useful type for it to take advantage of, including hitting Imposter on predicted switch-ins.

Rayquaza-Mega may not have relied strictly on its Dragon STAB, but neither does Necrozma-Ultra, they both used each of their STABs to great effect, and meant, at the very least, you could teambuild without having to pile on the Dragon-coverage since their STAB alone made it less of a priority for the remainder of your team.
You're implying Dragon coverage is harder than it actually is. You don't need offensive dragons to beat other dragons; more defensive Dragon or Fairy-type mons such as Dialga, Xerneas, and Magearna, or just the rogue Core Enforcer/Moonblast/Ice Beam on a mon otherwise walled by Giratina/Zygarde does just fine pressuring them. Giratina and Zygarde-Complete rarely can switch into MMY, and it's not Dragon-type.

Picking another Flying-type like Charizard-Mega-Y would not provide enough damage to pick apart Giratina, etc.
Actually, it would:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Aerilate Charizard-Mega-Y Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Giratina: 364-430 (72.2 - 85.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Charizard-Mega-Y was just never used because Rayquaza-Mega existed.

And another argument: Aerilate Rayquaza doesn't really need Draco Meteor that much to beat Dragon-types, anyway:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Aerilate Rayquaza-Mega Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Giratina: 402-474 (79.7 - 94%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Aerilate Rayquaza-Mega Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Zygarde-Complete: 472-556 (74.2 - 87.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Draco Meteor was kinda nice for getting the jump on Regenvest (even though it doesn't actually OHKO either of them and Boomburst 2HKOd them anyway).

*Unaware may not be ideal on most defensive mons, but ones that posses at least 1 resist / immunity to a Moldy move such as Chansey are definitely viable, and have been seen enough for team building consideration.
Considering that only 8.8% of the top 15 mons last October (the most recent month with only Gen 7 BH as an option, in order to have a high sample size) used Unaware, I think it's safe to say Unaware is not a common issue.

*Also, consider that sometimes self-improofing meant using Unaware mons for dealing with their Imposter of your own Pokemon.
This represents an even lower amount of Unaware users. I cannot off the top of my head think of a good Unaware non-defensive self-improofing mon. Except maybe Arceus, but the amount of Arceus using Shell Smash is a bit higher than 1% so again, not a common issue you'd consciously have to think about.

The issue of using Necrozma-Ultra is that it’s STAB Dragon coverage allows it to bypass Giratina and Zygarde without resorting to coverage moves,
Not sure why resorting to coverage moves is a bad thing. You talk about 4MSS but SF MMYs have almost always packed coverage for Giratina and Zygarde-Complete, and almost none of them have packed coverage for Shedinja (though some use Knock Off or hazards). If they have problems with Shedinja they prepare their other teammates to handle it, such as slapping on the funny volcano man or having a Mold Breaker Pursuit mon in the back.
while STAB Photon Geyser breaks Shedinja without feeling forced, and can use its Atk stat while MMY cannot with the same move.
Why is Photon Geyser somehow "forced" when it's on MMY? It runs it frequently on MG sets, and most Choice Specs sets use it or Moongeist Beam which also hits opposing Psychics and Giratina. And why would MMY need to have Photon Geyser be physical? Its physical coverage hits what it needs to anyway, and it really wants to hit specially defensive mons it can just use Psystrike. Again, if it doesn't hit Shedinja, the team can be modified a little to pressure Shedinja.

This frees up its fourth moveslot so it can cover what MMY cannot. For example, it doesn’t need Bolt Strike to hit Kyogre-Primal, because a nuetral hit off of Photon Geyser is a KO on its own, it doesn’t need to debate between Moonblast or Ice Beam (SF MMY) to break Zygarde-Complete, as Clanging Scales is self-sufficient.
Bolt Strike is only used on sets that don't have room for Psystrike (meaning only mixed non-STAB MG and most SF variants). Most MMYs can hit Kyogre.
It decides between Moonblast or Ice Beam because the former hits MMX harder. You imply Clanging Scales does what Moonblast and Ice Beam both do, which is inaccurate because Necrozma-Ultra gets forced out by MMX so it wouldn't be able to hit it in the first place.

It would be more accurate to compare Dazzling, Magic Guard, Sheer Force, etc. Mewtwo-Mega-Y to Deoxys-A as a frail sweeper that can match the same sets due to the same typing, only swapping slight SpA for Speed/Atk. Now being able to run Sheer Force Life Orb sets with even greater effect in mixed sweeping (such as Bolt Strike), and outspeeding Beedrill-Mega, etc.
This is mostly correct, although you forgot that MMY has about 6x the bulk of Deoxys-Attack (assuming that MMY is Naive and Deoxys-Attack has 0 defensive investment to maximize damage against Imposter), so it can afford to switch in and not worry about 2HKOing the opponent while being OHKOd back. But one can compare both Necrozma-Ultra and Deoxys-Attack to MMY, and discussion about Deoxys-Attack is irrelevant anyway.

In conclusion, Necrozma-Ultra is fine in C rank with other situational substitutes because its competitor, MMY, is much more versatile and at a much better speed tier. Having a mixed but ultimately rigid set allows it to fit with its C-rank companions.
 

cityscapes

Take care of yourself.
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comparing it to good offensive pokemon makes ultra look much more viable than it actually is. one might compare it to mmx, mmy, kyurem-w, ray, and even gar in terms of offensive capabilities. while these comparisons are not technically incorrect, they fail to account for ultra's abysmal disadvantage state.

ultra needs the momentum stacked in its favor in order to come in at all. most pokemon can 2hko it with moves like spectral and core, which is really bad considering ultra's reliance on zmove to ohko the majority of its targets (meaning that being chipped shortens the list of what it can threaten, and using up zmove after that makes it a complete non-threat). in addition, ultra is easily revenge killed by both mmy and gar, 2 very threatening pokemon, so even if it manages to get a kill, the effort needed to both get it in and deal with the momentum shift afterward is often not even worth it at all. this also means that ultra gets absolutely invalidated by uturn.

considering the other 2 sets, smash and specs: smash is very annoying to imposter-proof and isn't horrible as a smasher, but suffers the same issue of being hard to get in. specs has a basically permanent zmove in the form of psycho boost (w psystrike for ogre) meaning that it can get consistent ohkos, but it must be used on a very slow and passive team; as a result, it often simply fails to break faster than the opposing team. being prediction-reliant and vulnerable to midgrounds exacerbates this even more.

these reasons are why i do not support ultra rising above c rank.
 

Champion Leon

Banned deucer.
You're implying Dragon coverage is harder than it actually is. You don't need offensive dragons to beat other dragons; more defensive Dragon or Fairy-type mons such as Dialga, Xerneas, and Magearna, or just the rogue Core Enforcer/Moonblast/Ice Beam on a mon otherwise walled by Giratina/Zygarde does just fine pressuring them. Giratina and Zygarde-Complete rarely can switch into MMY, and it's not Dragon-type.


Actually, it would:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Aerilate Charizard-Mega-Y Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Giratina: 364-430 (72.2 - 85.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Charizard-Mega-Y was just never used because Rayquaza-Mega existed.

And another argument: Aerilate Rayquaza doesn't really need Draco Meteor that much to beat Dragon-types, anyway:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Aerilate Rayquaza-Mega Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Giratina: 402-474 (79.7 - 94%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Aerilate Rayquaza-Mega Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Zygarde-Complete: 472-556 (74.2 - 87.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Draco Meteor was kinda nice for getting the jump on Regenvest (even though it doesn't actually OHKO either of them and Boomburst 2HKOd them anyway).


Considering that only 8.8% of the top 15 mons last October (the most recent month with only Gen 7 BH as an option, in order to have a high sample size) used Unaware, I think it's safe to say Unaware is not a common issue.


This represents an even lower amount of Unaware users. I cannot off the top of my head think of a good Unaware non-defensive self-improofing mon. Except maybe Arceus, but the amount of Arceus using Shell Smash is a bit higher than 1% so again, not a common issue you'd consciously have to think about.


Not sure why resorting to coverage moves is a bad thing. You talk about 4MSS but SF MMYs have almost always packed coverage for Giratina and Zygarde-Complete, and almost none of them have packed coverage for Shedinja (though some use Knock Off or hazards). If they have problems with Shedinja they prepare their other teammates to handle it, such as slapping on the funny volcano man or having a Mold Breaker Pursuit mon in the back.

Why is Photon Geyser somehow "forced" when it's on MMY? It runs it frequently on MG sets, and most Choice Specs sets use it or Moongeist Beam which also hits opposing Psychics and Giratina. And why would MMY need to have Photon Geyser be physical? Its physical coverage hits what it needs to anyway, and it really wants to hit specially defensive mons it can just use Psystrike. Again, if it doesn't hit Shedinja, the team can be modified a little to pressure Shedinja.


Bolt Strike is only used on sets that don't have room for Psystrike (meaning only mixed non-STAB MG and most SF variants). Most MMYs can hit Kyogre.
It decides between Moonblast or Ice Beam because the former hits MMX harder. You imply Clanging Scales does what Moonblast and Ice Beam both do, which is inaccurate because Necrozma-Ultra gets forced out by MMX so it wouldn't be able to hit it in the first place.


This is mostly correct, although you forgot that MMY has about 6x the bulk of Deoxys-Attack (assuming that MMY is Naive and Deoxys-Attack has 0 defensive investment to maximize damage against Imposter), so it can afford to switch in and not worry about 2HKOing the opponent while being OHKOd back. But one can compare both Necrozma-Ultra and Deoxys-Attack to MMY, and discussion about Deoxys-Attack is irrelevant anyway.

In conclusion, Necrozma-Ultra is fine in C rank with other situational substitutes because its competitor, MMY, is much more versatile and at a much better speed tier. Having a mixed but ultimately rigid set allows it to fit with its C-rank companions.
1. That’s a lie. I am not implying that Dragon coverage is hard, what I am implying is that having a Pokemon that already packs Dragon coverage means you are less likely to need it on the other members of your team.

2. Again, not a 1HKO, and how can Charizard-Mega or even Rayquaza-Mega expect to even 2HKO when Core Enforcer removes their STAB, and then turns it into a Normal-type which Giratina is immune to?

Core Enforcer is a 2HKO on Rayquaza-Mega, which compounds with its Stealth Rock weakness... Giratina can recover on Rayquaza-Mega’s forced switch out, while Rayquaza-Mega can not touch Giratina once Core Enforcer hits, afterall, you did use Choice sets...

252 SpA Griseous Orb Giratina Core Enforcer vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Rayquaza-Mega: 258-306 (62.3 - 73.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

I brought up Draco Meteor so that way Soundproof wouldn’t be a factor, as Boomburst didn’t hit Soundproof, but even skipping Soundproof, Giratina surviving Boomburst while Boomburst is effectively negated puts Giratina in as a Check / revenge kill position, and makes Rayquaza susceptible to being KOed itself.

Even without its Griseous Orb, it’s a 2HKO against Rayquaza.

252 SpA Giratina Core Enforcer vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Rayquaza-Mega: 218-258 (52.6 - 62.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

To prevent situations, like the one listed above, Specs Draco was the deciding factor, in being a secure way to handle Zygarde-Complete / Giratina, KOing against non-AV.

3. I never said it was common, I did say it was viable enough to consider when building a team. Plus an almost 10% usage rate isn’t that uncommon, further you only listed the top 15 Pokemon, whom are not always defensive, and thus when I referred to defensive Unaware, like Chansey I wasn’t referring to same set self-Improof mons.

It would be better to look at Defensive Pokemon, since you specifically said “non-Defensive”, and for the record I wasn’t referring to “same set self-Improofing” mons, I was referring to using an Unaware teammate to handle your sweep. Afterall, we all know Chansey doesn’t sweep with Unaware, and me listing that proves I was referring to using Unaware overall. In the end, if you cannot same set self-Improof, you can use a teammate to switch in on Imposter with Unaware, like Chansey, especially since their Imposter won’t pack Life Orb, or a Z-move.

Think of Unaware Yveltal Improofing Shell Smash Dazzling MMX.

4. Resorting to coverage moves isn’t necessarily a bad thing, but relying on coverage moves, especially when you have 4 move slot syndrome is. It prevents you from having enough space to cover more since you don’t have the necessary STAB for strong nuetral hits, nor do you have the STAB to boost a super effective hit, forcing you to run items or abilities that make up for that, which can limit the sets you can run. I.e. SF MMY Ice Beam Vs Moonblast: While both can hit Dragons, Moongeist Beam becomes more necessary to hit MMX if you don’t use Moonblast, but if you used Moonblast you could skip Moongeist Beam for MMX, but then you now need Photon to hit Shedinja. This isn’t a problem when a STAB Photon off of Adaptability can KO Shedinja and threaten MMX with chip damage, or just Z-Move if it needs to secure a KO at full HP.

Thus, by doing what it does without resorting to having to swap in moves and swap out other coverage moves, it can squeeze more and therefore cover more.

I have seen MMY with Photon or Moongeist Beam, and people sometimes debate on Photon or Psychic for STAB due to the increased base power of Psychic Vs Moldy move effect on Discord, and even on Smogon.

5. So I wasn’t referring to it being forced on MMY, I was referring to how on Pokemon without STAB it would be forced since it is a common use to have Moldy moves on sweepers/wall breakers, but it’s not considered a coverage move on Necrozma-Ultra because it would use it anyways. I then acknowledged how Rayquaza-Mega would use Sunsteel Strike; Moongeist Beam on it’s sets and that it often created 4 move slot syndrome.

6. The point is, Necrozma-Ultra doesn’t need Psystrike, or Bolt Strike, it can simply use Photon off of its Attack stat, and it can use Clanging Scales to not rely on Light for Ruin for a MG set. This ultimately allows it to not worry about Fur Coat like Psystrike Mewtwo would need to consider for Psystrike, not worry about Shedinja. What Clanging Scales does is allow Necrozma-Ultra to rely less on picking the right move, since it’s pretty safe to use that without selecting the wrong coverage move with a lot of resistances (Dragon has 1 resistance and 1 Immunity), while Ice Beam and Moonblast are much easier to resist. Also it’s Z-Move KOs MMX, so it doesn’t rely on coverage moves. MMX doesn’t necessarily threaten out Necrozma-Ultra since it’s STAB is resisted, it’s coverage move in V-Create is resisted, and it wouldn’t want to come in and take a huge hit from its neutral moves anyways. Sure it can come in on a slow pivot; and threaten with Spectral or U-Turn, but you are not factoring in Necrozma-Ultra’s fourth move which could be Shell Smash, or another move that can threaten MMX.

7. Deoxys-A was compared to MMY in the sense they run the same sets. If either runs Focus Sash, then it’s kind of irrelevant how much bulk it has, as MMY is unlikely to survive more than 2 unresisted hits anyways. The fact you are saying you can compare MMY to Deoxys-A and Necrozma-Ultra is because they are mixed Psychic attackers, just like Necrozma-Ultra is a mixed Dragon attack (like Rayquaza). Their secondary typing difference makes them different, but their primary typing makes them worthy of the comparison when they can share the same STAB to nab the same KOs.

8. Necrozma-Ultra is above C, because it is more flexible in its Movesets, stats, and dual typing while other Pokemon in C rank like Metagross-Mega or Swampert-Mega are limited in what they can do; while Necrozma-Ultra is fast and powerful enough to perform a variety of sets.
comparing it to good offensive pokemon makes ultra look much more viable than it actually is. one might compare it to mmx, mmy, kyurem-w, ray, and even gar in terms of offensive capabilities. while these comparisons are not technically incorrect, they fail to account for ultra's abysmal disadvantage state.

ultra needs the momentum stacked in its favor in order to come in at all. most pokemon can 2hko it with moves like spectral and core, which is really bad considering ultra's reliance on zmove to ohko the majority of its targets (meaning that being chipped shortens the list of what it can threaten, and using up zmove after that makes it a complete non-threat). in addition, ultra is easily revenge killed by both mmy and gar, 2 very threatening pokemon, so even if it manages to get a kill, the effort needed to both get it in and deal with the momentum shift afterward is often not even worth it at all. this also means that ultra gets absolutely invalidated by uturn.

considering the other 2 sets, smash and specs: smash is very annoying to imposter-proof and isn't horrible as a smasher, but suffers the same issue of being hard to get in. specs has a basically permanent zmove in the form of psycho boost (w psystrike for ogre) meaning that it can get consistent ohkos, but it must be used on a very slow and passive team; as a result, it often simply fails to break faster than the opposing team. being prediction-reliant and vulnerable to midgrounds exacerbates this even more.

these reasons are why i do not support ultra rising above c rank.
What about Soundproof Clanging Scales? If it packs Shell Smash to make up for not using Adaptability, it can Imposterproof without much effort, and just like Soundproof Rayquaza-Mega / Sceptile-Mega had, it can use a Z-Move for the Imposter.

Improofing it via Soundproof Slowbro-Mega is easy, just like it was with Diancie-Mega / Rayquaza-Mega, and it provides a helpful slow pivot to boot.

+2 252+ Atk Adaptability Necrozma-Ultra Photon Geyser 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro-Mega: 136-160 (34.5 - 40.6%) -- 54.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Adaptability Necrozma-Ultra Photon Geyser vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro-Mega: 68-81 (17.2 - 20.5%) -- possible 7HKO after Leftovers recovery

In my original set, with the link, I provide calculations that use Life Orb for solid KOs and do not include any boosts from Shell Smash, in fact I don’t even include a Z-move calc.

Life Orb alone allows it to 1HKO the walls, so I don’t know why you said it needs a Z-Move... here is the list of calcs, since you seem to think it cannot use Life Orb to great effect?

252+ Atk Life Orb Necrozma-Ultra V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Registeel: 367-432 (100.8 - 118.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Life Orb Adaptability Necrozma-Ultra Clanging Scales vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Zygarde-Complete: 619-728 (97.3 - 114.4%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery without Steath Rocks

252 SpA Life Orb Adaptability Necrozma-Ultra Clanging Scales vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde-Complete: 562-665 (88.3 - 104.5%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (25% chance without Steath Rocks)

252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Necrozma-Ultra Photon Geyser vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Kyogre-Primal: 320-377 (79.2 - 93.3%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Life Orb Adaptability Necrozma-Ultra Clanging Scales vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Giratina: 530-624 (105.1 - 123.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Additonal:


252+ Atk Life Orb Necrozma-Ultra V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 411-486 (103.2 - 122.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Where did it need a Z-move to wallbreak?
—————

2HKOed by Core Enforcer?

Rayquaza-Mega is barely bulkier than Necrozma-Ultra
(105 HP / 100 Def / 100 SpD VERSUS 97 HP / 97 Def / 97 SpD)

When does Rayquaza-Mega survive a Core Enforcer at a 3HKO that Necromoza-Ultra would only survive at a 2HKO?

Spectral Thief is a weakness of Necrozma-Ultra, but that’s not as bad as a 4x weakness to Ice, and a Stealth Rock weakness - which upon switch-in more than cancels out the minor bulk advantage.

Spectral Thief is used on how many Pokemon faster than Necrozma-Ultra? MMX, Maybe MMY? We know Beedrill-Mega, Aerodactyl-Mega, and Gengar-Mega wouldn't use it, and oftentimes even Pheromosa prefers Knock Off (which does less if holding a Z-Crystal) to cripple the foe. Sure, they have other moves, but if they are Choice locked into something it resists like V-Create, Secret Sword, or Close Combat, then it’s not like you would be KOed. Also, if they do use Spectral as a faster Pokemon, who is to say you haven’t used Shell Smash on their slow pivot in?

They would need Focus Sash to survive, and since the few faster Pokemon I listed as using Spectral Thief are prettt much limited to MMX, who is less likely to use Focus Sash over Choice Band or Life Orb, it doesn’t seem as likely.

So since only a couple of Faster Pokemon might use it, that means it comes from slower Pokemon, so what is going to tank the first hit to use Spectral Thief to begin with?
Plus if it gets 2HKOed by something slower that can 2HKO it, by virtue of it being faster, it can 2HKO them first so it still forces them out...
——————
Post unchallenged, guess I am right!

 
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anaconja

long day at job
is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
2. Again, not a 1HKO, and how can Charizard-Mega or even Rayquaza-Mega expect to even 2HKO when Core Enforcer removes their STAB, and then turns it into a Normal-type which Giratina is immune to?

Core Enforcer is a 2HKO on Rayquaza-Mega, which compounds with its Stealth Rock weakness... Giratina can recover on Rayquaza-Mega’s forced switch out, while Rayquaza-Mega can not touch Giratina once Core Enforcer hits, afterall, you did use Choice sets...

252 SpA Griseous Orb Giratina Core Enforcer vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Rayquaza-Mega: 258-306 (62.3 - 73.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

I brought up Draco Meteor so that way Soundproof wouldn’t be a factor, as Boomburst didn’t hit Soundproof, but even skipping Soundproof, Giratina surviving Boomburst while Boomburst is effectively negated puts Giratina in as a Check / revenge kill position, and makes Rayquaza susceptible to being KOed itself.

Even without its Griseous Orb, it’s a 2HKO against Rayquaza.

252 SpA Giratina Core Enforcer vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Rayquaza-Mega: 218-258 (52.6 - 62.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

To prevent situations, like the one listed above, Specs Draco was the deciding factor, in being a secure way to handle Zygarde-Complete / Giratina, KOing against non-AV.
Obviously you'd keep the calc in mind (Boomburst does 80 minimum to Giratina and 74 minimum to Zygarde) when using Rayquaza. If it can't KO in one turn then it stays out, it's that simple. And it's as simple to chip either 20-25%, since they're switched in on most physical threats.

I never said it was common, I did say it was viable enough to consider when building a team. Plus an almost 10% usage rate isn’t that uncommon, like Chansey I wasn’t referring to same set self-Improof mons.
further you only listed the top 15 Pokemon, whom are not always defensive, and thus when I referred to defensive Unaware
I specifically picked the top 15 defensive Pokemon for that reason.

Resorting to coverage moves isn’t necessarily a bad thing, but relying on coverage moves, especially when you have 4 move slot syndrome is. It prevents you from having enough space to cover more since you don’t have the necessary STAB for strong nuetral hits, nor do you have the STAB to boost a super effective hit, forcing you to run items or abilities that make up for that, which can limit the sets you can run. I.e. SF MMY Ice Beam Vs Moonblast: While both can hit Dragons, Moongeist Beam becomes more necessary to hit MMX if you don’t use Moonblast, but if you used Moonblast you could skip Moongeist Beam for MMX, but then you now need Photon to hit Shedinja.

Thus, by doing what it does without resorting to having to swap in moves and swap out other coverage moves, it can squeeze more and therefore cover more.

I have seen MMY with Photon or Moongeist Beam, and people sometimes debate on Photon or Psychic for STAB due to the increased base power of Psychic Vs Moldy move effect on Discord, and even on Smogon.
I already said in my last post that SF MMY does not usually pack coverage for Shedinja because it doesn't need to, its teammates can handle that for it.

This isn’t a problem when a STAB Photon off of Adaptability can KO Shedinja and threaten MMX with chip damage, or just Z-Move if it needs to secure a KO at full HP.
I already said that Necrozma-Ultra is outsped by MMX so it gets forced out. No MMX is switching into Necrozma-Ultra, either.

MMX doesn’t necessarily threaten out Necrozma-Ultra since it’s STAB is resisted, it’s coverage move in V-Create is resisted, and it wouldn’t want to come in and take a huge hit from its neutral moves anyways. Sure it can come in on a slow pivot; and threaten with Spectral or U-Turn, but you are not factoring in Necrozma-Ultra’s fourth move which could be Shell Smash, or another move that can threaten MMX.
V-Create doesn't hit anything. MMX uses Spectral Thief and/or Ice Hammer instead:
252 Atk Choice Band Mewtwo-Mega-X Spectral Thief vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Necrozma-Ultra: 316-374 (79.3 - 93.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Mewtwo-Mega-X Ice Hammer vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Necrozma-Ultra: 350-414 (87.9 - 104%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Expert Belt Tough Claws Mewtwo-Mega-X Spectral Thief vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Necrozma-Ultra: 329-389 (82.6 - 97.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Expert Belt Tough Claws Mewtwo-Mega-X Ice Hammer vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Necrozma-Ultra: 367-432 (92.2 - 108.5%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
If Necrozma-Ultra used Shell Smash as the pivot switches out, then why would the opponent ever go into MMX? I don't get your logic.

If either runs Focus Sash, then it’s kind of irrelevant how much bulk it has
Focus Sash is a terrible option because you lose a significant amount of power. At that point you're probably better off using MMY, Beedrill-Mega is really not that common and you KO your desired targets with physical attacks without the need for more Attack anyway.

as MMY is unlikely to survive more than 2 unresisted hits anyways
252 SpA Griseous Orb Giratina Core Enforcer vs. 252 HP / 252- SpD Mewtwo-Mega-Y: 127-150 (30.5 - 36%) -- 50% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Griseous Orb Giratina Core Enforcer vs. 252 HP / 0- SpD Deoxys-Attack: 819-964 (269.4 - 317.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Zygarde-Complete Thousand Waves vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Mewtwo-Mega-Y: 121-144 (29 - 34.6%) -- 7% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Zygarde-Complete Thousand Waves vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-Attack: 424-501 (139.4 - 164.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Zygarde-Complete U-turn vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Mewtwo-Mega-Y: 126-150 (30.2 - 36%) -- 46.8% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Zygarde-Complete U-turn vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-Attack: 442-520 (145.3 - 171%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Xerneas Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 252- SpD Mewtwo-Mega-Y: 121-144 (29 - 34.6%) -- 7% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Xerneas Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 0- SpD Deoxys-Attack: 781-921 (256.9 - 302.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

The fact you are saying you can compare MMY to Deoxys-A and Necrozma-Ultra is because they are mixed Psychic attackers, just like Necrozma-Ultra is a mixed Dragon attack (like Rayquaza). Their secondary typing difference makes them different, but their primary typing makes them worthy of the comparison when they can share the same STAB to nab the same KOs.
Did you forget that Necrozma-Ultra is a Psychic-type? Only 15% of Rayquaza-Mega sets we know used mixed sets, the rest used physical or special. And what's funny is that your last statement about Necrozma-Ultra and Rayquaza-Mega can be made even more accurately about Necrozma-Ultra and MMY.

Necrozma-Ultra is above C, because it is more flexible in its Movesets, stats, and dual typing
I didn't know Necrozma-Ultra could change its stats and dual typing, is that a new mechanic for Gen 7 BH?

Post unchallenged, guess I am right!
your parents must be proud of all the internet arguments you've "won" huh

alright Cool Set tm...
:sm/groudon:
unfunny volcano man (Groudon) @ Groundium Z
Ability: Guts
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Thousand Arrows
- Stealth Rock
- Will-O-Wisp
- Strength Sap
Basically this plays like Groudon-Primal except if wow gets bounced you benefit from it (switching into WoW and Scald and Lava Plume are options too). TArrows into Z-TArrows 2HKOs Giratina which is really cool. Garchomp-Mega may be an option cause of higher Atk and Spe but Groudon isn't weak to Dragon/Fairy and the extra Defense helps it out in some cases like taking hits from MMX (252 Atk Choice Band Adaptability Mewtwo-Mega-X Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Groudon: 326-384 (80.6 - 95%) -- guaranteed 2HKO). Improofed by the same things as Groudon-Primal was (Magic Bounce physical fatmon), basically, though you might want to pack a Core Enforcer on it to cancel out Guts if Imposter burns itself.

replay: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-1109341754 (featuring your local unset band assist mmx)
i had a replay with will where don still put in some work even though it didn't get burned but i forgot to save it rip
 
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Champion Leon

Banned deucer.
Obviously you'd keep the calc in mind (Boomburst does 80 minimum to Giratina and 74 minimum to Zygarde) when using Rayquaza. If it can't KO in one turn then it stays out, it's that simple. And it's as simple to chip either 20-25%, since they're switched in on most physical threats.
Good Point... but my point was actually that you would have to not send in Rayquaza-Mega as a threat into Giratina. Afterall, you cannot pick something apart that can 2HKO you before you 2HKO it.

“If it cannot KO in one turn it stays out”, do you mean stays out of battle?

I sounds like you mean stays out to KO, but then Giratina disables the offense and then proceeds to KO with Core Enforcer. Normal Boomburst is doing zero.

“It’s simple to chip 20-25%, since they’re switched into most physical threats”, even more so when I refer to how Rayquaza-Mega is weak to Stealth Rock...

In regards to switching Giratina into physical threats, it really depends on the remainder of the team, for all we know another teammate is a Fur Coat Pokemon that is meant to handle the physical threats, like Slowbro-Mega, Dusk-Mane, etc. Plus, if we include RegenVest:

252+ SpA Choice Specs Aerilate Rayquaza-Mega Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Giratina: 246-289 (48.8 - 57.3%) -- 92.6% chance to 2HKO

Giratina can take less, heal more, allowing it to switch out on the same turn as the now Core Enforcered Rayquaza, and recover over half of the damage.

Rayquaza-Mega has to really pick its battles with Giratina, and come in at the right time, Giratina isn’t likely to randomly switch into Boomburst, anymore than Rayquaza-Mega would switch into Core Enforcer.

Anyways, my original point was that Charizard-Mega-Y doesn’t have STAB Dragon coverage, like Rayquaza-Mega and Necrozma-Ultra have. So Boomburst is Charizard-Mega-Y’s best option, while Rayquaza-Mega would just go for Draco Meteor if it predicted a switch in, otherwise Giratina would come in after it is revealed what move Rayquaza-Mega is Choice-locked into.

TLDR: Rayquaza-Mega must get a hit in on the switch; as if slow pivots don’t exist. Giratina wins if it comes in on a slow pivot, or as a revenge kill (as even if it used Draco, it loses -2 SpA if Giratina wasn’t the first target Rayquaza-Mega aimed for). And once it is in, it will keep Rayquaza-Mega out if it’s RegenVest, especially since even Draco Meteor cannot KO. Stealth Rock chips accumulate on Rayquaza-Mega very easily.

Even so; if it’s Prankster it could use Destiny Bond and take Rayquaza-Mega with it. It isn’t black and white for Rayquaza-Mega to always come out on top.
You never said specifically they were the top 15 Defensive Pokemon, here is what you actually said:

“Considering that only 8.8% of the top 15 mons last October (the most recent month with only Gen 7 BH as an option, in order to have a high sample size) used Unaware, I think it's safe to say Unaware is not a common issue.”

You misspoke as if the top 15 Pokemon, in general, only use Unaware 8.8%, while we all know the top 15 include offense, like MMY and MMX, who wouldn’t use that ability.

Next time, post the link in the first mention, and be precise with what Pokemon you are actually stating.
*After all, I cannot misread what you did not write...
I already said in my last post that SF MMY does not usually pack coverage for Shedinja because it doesn't need to, its teammates can handle that for it.
Funny how whenever I make the same argument about a teammate handling the Pokemon that one set cannot, it gets seen as not enough... I guess I will be the bigger person and pretend that zero SF MMY use Photon or Moongeist, even though some did...

Anyways, my point was that Necrozma-Ultra doesn’t rely on Sheer Force moves for damage, because Photon Geyser, Clanging Scales, and V-Creates handles what SF Psychic, Ice Beam, Earth Power and Bolt Strike try to do.
Plus, a fourth move for Necrozma-Ultra could just as easily be Precipice Blades to handle Flash Fire Pokemon, just like Rayquaza-Mega did, if it forgoes Shell Smash.
Focus Sash is a terrible option because you lose a significant amount of power. At that point you're probably better off using MMY
Focus Sash works for a Dazzling Smash, or Magic Guard set, since you plan to take a hit to set up, or since Magic Guard protects your Sash for anything, anyways. Focus Sash also enables Reversal over Hi Jump Kick on MGuard sets (Deoxys-A sets).

Focus Sash can be swapped with White Herb on MMY, but Focus Sash enables survival against any hit and keeps it Imposterproof, if intact, for Smash (i.e. Dazzling) sets, and protects it from Priority hits if it doesn’t have Dazzling (like Sucker Punch Tar).
252 SpA Griseous Orb Giratina Core Enforcer vs. 252 HP / 252- SpD Mewtwo-Mega-Y: 127-150 (30.5 - 36%) -- 50% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Griseous Orb Giratina Core Enforcer vs. 252 HP / 0- SpD Deoxys-Attack: 819-964 (269.4 - 317.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Why does Spectral Thief suddenly not exist on Giratina sets?
Sure, you can handle Core, but at le

252 Atk Giratina Spectral Thief vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Mewtwo-Mega-Y: 242-288 (58.1 - 69.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
[
Did you forget that Necrozma-Ultra is a Psychic-type? Only 15% of Rayquaza-Mega sets we know used mixed sets, the rest used physical or special. And what's funny is that your last statement about Necrozma-Ultra and Rayquaza-Mega can be made even more accurately about Necrozma-Ultra and MMY.
Cool, I forgot that Psychic was Necrozma-Ultra’s primary typing, and said it was the secondary typing, but you forgot to specify that you were referring its “Psychic type” being its primary type. The fact I already referred to it as a Psychic-type in the sentence prior proves I remembered it is a Psychic-type, the fact you didn’t even call that out correctly doesn’t make you look smart.

Um, 15% of different sets? Maybe. But Aerilate was one of its biggest sets, which you noted was in its top 3 abilities, and pretty much was near guaranteed to be mixed for at least Extreme Speed and Boomburst, even on Specs versions.

Your own link to the Usage stats shows Extreme Speed on over 26% of Rayquaza-Mega sets, with Aerilate on over 34% of Rayquaza-sets, and Life Orb om over 25% of sets. Sounds like mixed sweeping is way higher than 15%, in regards to actual total gameplay for all sets.

65DE5C48-00F1-47A3-BAF3-5637882B8E47.png


P.S. It also mentioned Secret Sword was at 18%, so even if it was an all SpA Specs set, that is still mixed sweeping since it hits off of Defense.
:v4:
Not that it needs that at all to count for over 15%.
I didn't know Necrozma-Ultra could change its stats and dual typing, is that a new mechanic for Gen 7 BH?
Actually, it is, thanks to the Necrozium-Z Crystal, it can change stats and typing from Necrozma Dusk-Mane, or Necrozma Dawn-Wings, into Necrozma-Ultra, something that was introduced as part of the Z-Crystal move mechanic, brand new to Gen 7... so yes!

Anyways, I was referring to the fact it is more flexible because unlike the other C-Rank Pokemon like Metagross-Mega, and Swampert-Mega, it’s typing and Stats allow it to use strong moves from either Atk or SpA, and take advantage of both of its typings for each. Afterall, Photon Geyser can literally serve as an ideal STAB for it with which ever offense it chooses. It maintains flexibility because if it gets Burned, hit by King’s Shield, or Strength Sap, it can use Photon off of its SpA stat, and maintain most of its power...

Since it can go mixed and has 2 STABS, it won’t rely on items and abilities to boost its damage for coverage, since its STABS cover almost all types neutrally, when combined, this prevents 4MSS, and it even has comparable bulk to Rayquaza-Mega, without a 4x weakness.

So yes, flexible!
your parents must be proud of all the internet arguments you've "won" huh
It wasn’t hard to win against you. And hey, it got you to respond, so it looks like I won by getting what I wanted out of you. ;)
alright Cool Set tm...
:sm/groudon:
unfunny volcano man (Groudon) @ Groundium Z
Ability: Guts
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Thousand Arrows
- Stealth Rock
- Will-O-Wisp
- Strength Sap
Basically this plays like Groudon-Primal except if wow gets bounced you benefit from it (switching into WoW and Scald and Lava Plume are options too). TArrows into Z-TArrows 2HKOs Giratina which is really cool. Garchomp-Mega may be an option cause of higher Atk and Spe but Groudon isn't weak to Dragon/Fairy and the extra Defense helps it out in some cases like taking hits from MMX (252 Atk Choice Band Adaptability Mewtwo-Mega-X Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Groudon: 326-384 (80.6 - 95%) -- guaranteed 2HKO). Improofed by the same things as Groudon-Primal was (Magic Bounce physical fatmon), basically, though you might want to pack a Core Enforcer on it to cancel out Guts if Imposter burns itself.

replay: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-1109341754 (featuring your local unset band assist mmx)
i had a replay with will where don still put in some work even though it didn't get burned but i forgot to save it rip
Garchomp-Mega due to its additional resistances, such as Fire to tank V-Create, higher base Speed, and higher Atk (even higher than Adamant Groudon when not Adamant), better SpD bulk, and basically equal Phsycial bulk outperforms Groudon so it can get the jump on Red Orb Groudon, Kyogre-Primal, and other base Speed 90s. This allows it better survivability Vs Grass, Water, and Fire attacks.

252 Atk Choice Band Adaptability Mewtwo-Mega-X Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Garchomp-Mega: 342-404 (81.4 - 96.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

A literal 1% difference to your own Groudon calc.

Real Potential (Garchomp-Mega) @ Groundium Z
Ability: Guts
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Nature
- Thousand Arrows
- Stealth Rock
- Will-O-Wisp
- Strength Sap

As Impish it has basically the same Def bulk, due to higher HP, but also 1 higher Atk, than Adamant Groudon, so if bulk was your argument, it is actually in Garchomp-Mega’s favor.

It all comes down to typing, since you didn’t bother to calc it’s Impish set, and just went off base Stats...

Also Imposter won’t need to burn itself, it could let you Burn it on the switch-in, such as if it scouted your set, then is sent it back in.

Why not just use a Flame Orb; then Psycho Shift to bypass Magic Bounce, which is 100% accurate, and Improof with a Poison Healer? This way if they come in to Magic Bounce your Stealth Rick, you can still Burn them, especially if they have any Atk power.

This also means they are going to have to remove their Guts boost in order to Burn an ally of yours, but that move doesn’t work if you have put a Pokemon with any status ailments, so they can only cure themselves of Burn if you allow it.

The Z-Crystal is cool and all, but I don’t know if you would just be better off with a guaranteed 50% boost, as you said your second match didn’t even get Groudon Burned... so I suggest Flame Orb.

Having to depend on getting Magic Bounced a status is unreliable, if they scouted your Groudon, they would just avoid statusing you as well. Flame Orb prevents Sleep, Freeze, and Toxic, so I think it’s a safer bet as a status absorber.
 
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Champion Leon

Banned deucer.
Here is the Landorus-Therian set that my intention last generation was meant to be:
:Landorus-Therian:
Landorus-FEARian (Landorus-Therian) @ Choice Band / Life Orb
Ability: Refrigerate
Happiness: 0
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Precipice Blades
- Bolt Strike
- Frustration
- U-Turn / Trick / Shift Gear

Completely Imposterproof, while scoring the KOs you know you love — and need. Happiness level is not copied by Imposter, so your Frustration is full power, while theirs is minimal.

Packing an even Trollier Speed Tier than Garchomp-Mega, it outpaces base 90s Speed with 91 base Speed, to get the jump and proceeds to wallbreak.
————
252+ Atk Life Orb Landorus-Therian Bolt Strike vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Kyogre-Primal: 372-439 (92 - 108.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Life Orb Landorus-Therian Precipice Blades vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Dialga: 421-499 (104.2 - 123.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Landorus-Therian Bolt Strike vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Celesteela: 338-400 (84.9 - 100.5%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rocks
————
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Refrigerate Landorus-Therian Frustration vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Eviolite Chansey: 697-821 (99 - 116.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Pixilate Landorus-Therian Frustration vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Giratina: 429-507 (85.1 - 100.5%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Refrigerate Landorus-Therian Frustration vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zygarde-Complete: 775-915 (121.8 - 143.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
———
252+ Atk Choice Band Landorus-Therian Precipice Blades vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Registeel: 378-446 (103.8 - 122.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Landorus-Therian Precipice Blades vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Groudon-Primal: 392-464 (97 - 114.8%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO (Red Orb Groudon)

252+ Atk Choice Band Landorus-Therian Precipice Blades vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 426-504 (107 - 126.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Landorus-Therian Bolt Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ho-Oh: 390-460 (93.7 - 110.5%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Refrigerate Landorus-Therian Frustration vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zygarde-Complete: 596-704 (93.7 - 110.6%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
I would say this:

It’s not as powerful as Garchomp-Mega, but it packs enough power to still get the KO on it’s intended targets, I.e. KOing Zygarde-Complete, without a Z-Crystal.

It can more effectively set up, as it doesn’t fear Imposter, or for its Choice Band set, it can Trick Pokemon that hard wall it to prevent healing.

Overall, like Gengar-Mega, it packs an immunity to its STAB and coverage moves, while allowing itself to not fear Stealth Rock like other Flying types like Aerodactyl-Mega, or Pinsir-Mega would. Life Orb basically lets it catch up to stronger mons that rely on other items (like Gengar-Mega in terms of the Normalize set‘s offensive prowess), with all of its main attacks being at least base 123 power.

Further, Landorus-Therian is a pick that focuses on longevity and not being afraid to stay in and keep at it, while other physical Flying types often have to be selective about their coverage moves or STAB in case Imposter comes in to force them out.

Lastly, Hazers typically fear at least one of its moves, and Frustration will surprise the inevitable Zygarde-Complete switch in when they don’t expect a 1HKO move, like they would on Garchomp-Mega, functioning as a lure to the very Pokemon it is meant to KO.
 
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cityscapes

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(note: this statement does not apply to the post directly above this one, i wrote this last night in response to the ultra necrozma thing)

this argument is pretty unproductive. rather than making use of the several months of high level play from after the ray ban, it just argues semantics about the pokemon's attributes. "oh, but it could run x, y, and z, and it could check these pokemon". this vr is supposed to represent how well the pokemon can perform at top level play in terms of both consistency against the wider metagame and individual team strength, and arguments about what it can or can't do in a vacuum are unhelpful when used without actual examples of gameplay.

i posted my thoughts on ultra necrozma based on my personal experience with using and playing against this pokemon, and the response was "but what about soundproof". no one has ever used this set. vr discussions are not the place for sets that have not been used.

also, the emphasis on "winning arguments", when the goal of these discussions is for all of us to become better players by understanding each other and the metagame better, is unhealthy and dissuades users from posting in the thread.

i do not mean to be aggressive or insulting, but i would not like to see any more posts with the above issues in this thread.

feel free to contact me personally if you would like to discuss this. additionally, if you would like to test out your sets, i'm always down to play some gen 7 bh (username on ps is dragonquestcasino).

moving on from that, i was wondering what everyone else thought about primal groudon from a to a+.

i know this nom might be a bit controversial, but i've found this pokemon to be so consistent both offensively and defensively that it feels harder to build without it than with it.

it synergizes extremely well with many of the best pokemon in the metagame, such as mmy, xern, gar, shed shell imposter, and yveltal. this can easily lead to the creation of low-effort yet impressively consistent teams (such as this one, which was created in like 5 minutes to show Mickle314 that i could build with 3 wisp users. it's a bit weak to yveltal but that's pretty much it)

additionally, pdon can fit surprisingly well on more defensive builds, which typically slot suicune + secondary special wall where ogre would normally go. here is an example of such a team, where suicune fit extremely well with gira + steela on the defensive side, then pdon could be added afterward as the physical wall. this team maybe could've done with a xern, but it works pretty well as is.

the only real downside of this mon is that it does nothing when the opponent has a counter alive, but considering how few counters there are and how easy it is for the don user to slot on mons that cover these bad matchups, i would argue that this is mostly insignificant.

also, i'm still not sure about what i should do with establishing a vr council. if anyone has any ideas please let me know. i think now would be a good time to have a vr update though.
 

cityscapes

Take care of yourself.
is a Tiering Contributoris a Community Contributor Alumnus
hey what's up everyone

first of all, the gen 7 bh discord is up! join here: https://discord.gg/baVsp5u (thanks to Chazm for helping me set this up)

secondly, since the process of forming a council has started (join the discord if you're interested in joining council), the first gen 7 bh vr update since the beginning of gen 8 will likely come soon. be sure to post your thoughts on the current topics if you haven't already!

next up, i have been informed that the linked gen 5 bh vr in the op is quite outdated. this isn't a super urgent thing, but if you are an experienced gen 5 bh player and would like to contribute in the creation of a more updated vr, please let me know (pm me here or on discord). this also applies to gen 6; although the vr for that is accurate to the end of the gen, i would like the help of active gen 6 bh players to help me cover any future metagame developments that may arise.

also, i would like to be transparent about my overall plan for vr/sample team updates in this thread. i think that these should be updated:
  • after a major tournament featuring the metagame in question
  • after (or during) a month when it gets a ladder
  • if neither of these happen, after a certain time interval depending on how actively the metagame is played and discussed
these rules are not absolute (for example, if tournament/ladder happen in close succession, i doubt we need 2 vr updates) but they look like decent guidelines to go off.

anyway, that's all for now. thanks to everyone else for posting!
 

cityscapes

Take care of yourself.
is a Tiering Contributoris a Community Contributor Alumnus
hey guys WHATS UP its time for a slightly different post today. i had the idea for this post today and it sounded cool so i just went ahead and made it.

anyway, here are the top 10 worst gen 7 bh teams i've ever made. seriously, there are some pretty horrible teams in here. time for me to exorcise these demonic creations once and for all

(click on the sprites for the pokepaste)

#10:

this team earns the tenth spot on the list by virtue of the pheromosa set, which was meant to switch in on uturns and stuff while not being too worn down. not only was the set exceptionally bad at its purpose, failing to beat the majority of offensive pokemon, the team wasn't remotely weak to the slow pivot strategies that it was meant to counter. luckily, the team actually has a secondary initiative in ph regi + cb pixilate ttar + mg spikes hooh, which is also pretty terrible but at least somewhat workable thanks to decent hazard pressure with the ability to trap giratina. this saves it from the lower spots on the list.

#9:

for context here, we have to go a while back in time, not just to a different meta but also to a different sl42. this mmy set looked cool to me because of its immense power, but it was more of a late-game sweeper than anything else. rather than choosing pokemon carefully to help remove its counters and secure an optimal time for it to come in, i used the tried and true method of screwing around with a defensive core and breaker for a while and hoping they tossed out their important mons randomly (or they got lucked by sleep). admittedly this team did use some cool stuff like spore audino (pre-sleep clause) and ph bro to gain momentum, so i cant mark it too poorly for that.

#8:

i don't think i have to explain much here. literally just look at this team. it looks like some unholy fusion between a 1300 elo bh team and the grimiest of "heat" ou ladder hero teams that ctc would make for blunder in a heatah fajita only to lose several times in a row. mmy is a good breaker but it literally has like 3 turns to actually click attacks before succumbing to chip damage from lo+solar power+anything else, so imposter just totally screws you up. darm is used over blaziken for the fairy resist which is kind of cool i guess. blissey and deos are just complete disaster sets. this team is cool and can sometimes win against ladder players but it's just not fun at all to use, the goal of sun is to be clicking high powered attacks for the majority of the game but with this team youre only clicking them like 5 times max and then you have no cleaner to actually win the game.

#7:

powerful anti-synergy is the only thing stopping a team with this many broken pokemon from absolutely carrying its user to free wins, and that's exactly what happened here. i don't know what led me to believe that pdon and shed would enjoy the support of 2 pokemon that basically donate free momentum to the opponent (scarf imposter and aero). broken as xern+pdon+shed may be, one thing it cannot do is win games when it's constantly on the back foot and having to react to the opponent, rather than vice versa. the only thing salvaging this team from the ULTRA DUMPSTER is thunder arceus, of all things, which manages to be not passive enough to allow the rest of the team to actually get something done. even then, though, a shed team managing to make it onto this list is still pretty horrible.

#6:

you know these teams get bad if naganadel jellicent abomasnow of all things is only at 6th place here, but this team at least has something going on. naga as the breaker + pdon as the secondary breaker/hazard setter + jelly as the shed counter works at least decently, and extremely passive mons are employed to prevent the team from losing to pokemon that are simply more efficient than these. ph abomasnow is just an absolutely hilarious pokemon and i'm unable to stay mad at him. realistically speaking, though, having some fat walls doesn't stop the team from losing to anyone who knows what they're doing. beating this team is relatively straightforward and is mostly just a matter of not giving pdon/naga (whichever is more threatening) too many opportunities.

#5:

this is pretty similar to the regenvest phero team, but notably worse due to how it actually commits to the unviable set. the legendary drum gar is a great meme, but power-wise it's absolutely horrible. forget about killing any reasonably bulky pokemon that isn't weak to one of your attacks (pdon, regigigas, any steel). prank also completely shuts the set down. anyway, after gar dies you have kyuw + ttar, which have pretty terrible synergy and typically don't accomplish that much before you inevitably lose the game. it's ok, because this team really wasn't designed for winning in the first place.

#4:

if you're wondering what weepinbell is doing here, i was looking at usage stats and saw that it was the single least used mon for some month. this prompted me to build around it, of course. the man himself is used as what may be the most halfhearted xern check in all of history (doesn't even beat qd), but the rest of the team is somehow almost as much of a travesty. diancie + melo is ok at not immediately losing but horrible long-term, while hoopa (the lone breaker of the team) is bound to get itself killed whenever it gets played remotely aggressively, leaving you with 5 passive mons, no hazards, and depression. this team has a decent case for worst on the list viability-wise, but in terms of essence (that thing in the iron chef challenge) it at least made an effort to build with weepinbell, which i can respect. the bottom 3 on the list are much, much worse because they actually tried to win.

#3:

during the pressure aero chronicles, i had noted that there was another 80 bp move with 32 pp/no immunities besides drill peck and anchor shot. this was power gem, and it allowed me to try out something new in a specially based pp stalling set. i chose relicanth here because it didn't die to anchor, which from my experience was one of the main defining factors in whether or not the set worked. slapped on the funny high pp move, qd, bunker cause i wanna poison guys, defensive core with the aero teams as a template, lunar dance cause i'm cool like that, i was good to go. just one small issue.

relicanth has 45 base special attack.

this is monumentally bad. +1 power gem does about 20% to xerneas. against a team with any form of setup control, relicanth was not doing anything beyond maybe getting a surprise poison. opposing teams could simply switch around and hold off on clicking prank haze until relicanth got to +3 or +4 (at which point, mind you, it was still not an actual threat), pp stalling it instead of the other way around. aero already had this problem to some extent, but with relicanth and its pathetic attacking power it was a million times worse. even an unstabbed mon like dialga would have been better.

that said, at least the rest of the team was somewhat functional. despite the atrocious hazard control and lack of its own hazard, it can still be played as a bootleg stall team that aims to take advantage of teams with 0 longevity. (btw, in a tragically fitting coincidence, relicanth is classified as the "longevity pokemon".) however, don't expect to get anywhere in actual mid to high level play-- this is just a stall team with 5 pokemon, and not even a well-built one. it's better to just use literally anything else. except for maybe the other 2 teams on this list.

#2:

i hate this team so much. it doesn't look that bad on the surface, but when you consider how actually using it in a real game would go, the issues start to emerge. the team has no goals beyond "haha bewear pass the dd to kyub! big power!", which doesn't work against anyone old enough to be on this site. the team is carried by volt switch regengar, which is a decent at best wallbreaker. defensively you have monstrosities such as that dialga set and no steel move dusk mane. without a doubt, this team is extremely bad. i typically only send out bewear when i've already given up, which typically doesn't happen that far into the match. (fun fact, there was another bewear team that was sd pass into cb kyub, which was also pretty awful but not bad enough to make it on the list)

#1:

for being the absolute worst team in my builder, this one is pretty innocuous. no stupid unranked mons, no meaningless offensive mon slop. just absolutely terrible teambuilding.

ph dialga was a cool idea but heavily struggled with many things, the most important of which being "how do i make this better than comatose dialga with recover", something that was never addressed. comatose fini + soundproof audino add nothing to the team. giratina sits there. tyranitar should absolutely not have uturn. the team loses impressively hard to shed, sludge bomb/secret sword gar, and anything with hazards, but what really sets it apart from the other teams here is what happens when it has opportunities.

the first opportunity that the team gets is typically used to activate dialga's toxic orb through conversion. other teams are bringing in their ph xerns, their mmys, their gars and posing an instant threat. we click conversion and pray they don't have knock or status. after that, dialga can theoretically switch in on things, but it's impressively terrible at doing this. most things hit it for more than the value of anything it can do back. tail glow means that if you miraculously activate toxic orb against the most dialga-weak team in the world, you can take down a pokemon or 2 before getting forced out by ability removal and having to get uturned in several times to regain the lost hp.

the team is poor at both fast and slow play. faster teams absolutely obliterate dialga before it gets the chance to click anything, let alone conversion. the rest of the team is typically tasked with regaining momentum and hopefully somehow winning the game, but due to the horrible type synergy and the massive gar weakness, this is not something you can typically expect to happen. meanwhile, the team is also disadvantaged in slower games because dialga just isn't doing enough and the hazard remover is soundproof audino, of all things. most of the time these games consist of ttar coming in a few times and not dying only to stop playing the game cause he isn't actually getting anything done.

this team is a tragedy comparable to that of motherlove quitting mons. its efficiency is comparable to a human drinking motor oil and trying to use the energy from digesting it to push a car. it is the anti-funny volcano man, with fearsome levels of negative energy. it's also really bad and forcibly rips the game out of your hands, causing you to lose by disconnection. don't use this team.

anyway, thanks for reading this post. this was a lot of fun to make and i hope you all enjoyed it. feel free to share your own worst teams, or just take these and use them against your friends. see you guys later.
 

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