The most common thing I've heard about gen 1 pure hackmons is that it's either a race to hit spore first or a race to delete your opponent's save file first. Jokes aside, this may be true. Tauros might have a niche in gen 1 ph, but it might be ineffective due to the amount of Spores and Mewtwos everywhere. The only way to see is to play games but uh... nobody wants to play gen 1 pure hackmons lol. I guess we'll never know.
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
Project Old Gen Hackmons Megathread
- Thread starter Ransei
- Start date
The most common thing I've heard about gen 1 pure hackmons is that it's either a race to hit spore first or a race to delete your opponent's save file first. Jokes aside, this may be true. Tauros might have a niche in gen 1 ph, but it might be ineffective due to the amount of Spores and Mewtwos everywhere. The only way to see is to play games but uh... nobody wants to play gen 1 pure hackmons lol. I guess we'll never know.
Just wanted to add some more to the counters and threats list
: Mega Audino being physically defensive means that it cannot take a boosted hit from Substitute Mold Breaker Mega Rayquaza with Life Orb and has a 25% chance to die from variants with Sky Plate. It is therefore unable to use Whirlwind a lot of the time. Giratina can help but often loses to both Dark Void and Taunt variants. Lopunny can Trick its Assault Vest in order to neuter Rayquaza, but it often costs its own life. To be fair this is probably fine since at that point Lopunny would have done its job anyway, but it's still not ideal.
: Not super common, but it's worth mentioning because unless you Trick it the Assault Vest you get 6-0ed by Searing Shot variants. The only way to win from that point would be to use Sucker Punch from Mega Gyarados to kill it, but since you don't have Knock Off they can freely put you to sleep without worrying about burning the Lum Berry.
: Magic Bounce variants of Gyarados @ Gyaradosite switch in on Lopunny, Scizor, Mega Audino, and sometimes Giratina, though it doesn't appreciate being Cursed. After switching in, it can use Shell Smash basically for free (or chip Mega Audino with Gunk Shot as it uses Parting Shot). From there your best way of beating it would be to use Curse and then Pursuit trap it with Giratina. You can also try to Pursuit trap it before it Mega Evolves, but lack of Knock Off means they can just Mega Evolve and spam Spore/Dark Void since they resist all your attacks. It's a manageable threat, but a threat nonetheless.
: Mold Breaker Arceus threatens this team with its Boomburst + Dark/Ghost Judgment. Because Mega Scizor is specially defensive, it can live a boosted Judgment, but Arceus is too bulky to be threatened by Gear Grind and it doesn't care much about Will-O-Wisp. However, using Gear Grind means it is put in range of Mega Gyarados's Sucker Punch. You could also use Curse from Giratina to put it in range. Due to being immune to Trick when holding a plate, Arceus can switch in freely on Lopunny.
: Some variants can come in freely on Lopunny as it doesn't care about getting an Assault Vest and it can just Pursuit Lopunny to death. It also claps Primal Groudon and Giratina, because even though it has the Griseous Orb to take Knock Offs better it has no way of actually threatening it back without dying.
: There are two mons weak to fighting that don't hold Shed Shells, so Shadow Tag MMX beats them up. Mega Audino doesn't hold a Shed Shell, either, and Gear Grind or Gunk Shot are commonly run on Shadow Tag sets.
Some other things about the team:
- I like how this team works on paper. The main sources of offense are Mold Breaker Primal Groudon and Trick-or-Treat Mega Gyarados. Trick on Lopunny can shut down a Wonder Guard user or Giratina. If you hit the Defog user the opponent is now unable to remove hazards and must play at a perpetual disadvantage. Trick-or-Treat on Gyarados can also punish opposing Wonder Guard users as they use Defog, as they are now weak to Pursuit. The lack of Knock Off on this particular set hinders its effectiveness at doing this, but it is functional and a way to threaten Wonder Guard users nonetheless.
- Having only Primal Groudon as your way to threaten Wonder Guard users straightforwardly means you typically want to save it to mid to late game when you can safely use it. This means that you are doing shenaniganry with your other mons for a majority of the battle which can make games drag on.But hey that's every gen 6 game at the moment isn't it?
- Vanilla Lopunny naturally has Klutz as an ability, that's a pretty funny coincidence
Pretty cool team overall, I had fun playing against it that one time. It works surprisingly well for using AV Klutz of all things, I'm impressed.
Thanks for the feedback, about the counters you mentioned
Last edited:
Mewtwo is banned and sleep is banned, Tauros doesn't have a "niche" it's the single best mon in the tier. Nothing switches into tauros safely except Golem, Rhydon & Cloyster. All of which get 2hko'ed by razor leaf in bh.
Last edited:
This is a Pure Hackmons focused thread, there´s no bans in Pure Hackmons, if you want to discuss about Old Gen Balanced Hackmons check the thread they have.
I have updated the damage calculator extension for generation 6 and have made a new one for generation 7. Let me know what Pokemon I should add. When using them, keep in mind that when you import Mega Evolved Pokemon into the damage calculator, they do not keep their items. You may have to add them manually.
ORAS: https://pokepast.es/ad776b98c3f3cb41
USUM: https://pokepast.es/87eda88580d0719c
Edit 1: Added Specs Gale Wings Ray and Mixed Bulk Primal Kyogre to ORAS Damage Calc Extensions
ORAS: https://pokepast.es/ad776b98c3f3cb41
USUM: https://pokepast.es/87eda88580d0719c
Edit 1: Added Specs Gale Wings Ray and Mixed Bulk Primal Kyogre to ORAS Damage Calc Extensions
Last edited:
Kyurem-White spam
This is a spin-off of Deer spam by Mbouchon, and only exists to spite certain community members who will not be named. I chose Kyurem-White as they are my second favorite Pure hackmons pokemon and again to spite certain community members were trash talking it. _________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
NOTdiancie (Kyurem-White) @ Iron Plate
Ability: Wonder Guard
EVs: 32 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 220 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Searing Shot
- Judgment
- Shell Smash
- Freeze-Dry
This is one of the best sets for Kyurem-white and is one I use quite often. Searing shot is just the "fourth move". A coverage option that can be swapped out depending on what wonder guards are popular, searing shot threatens a number of common wonder guards such as beedrill-mega and Scizor-mega, while also providing an option to hit steel types. Iron plate judgement allows for imposter proofing and ohko's defensive xerneas after boosting. Shell smash is simply the best setup move available in this generation. Freeze-dry is the main reason this set is viable, with no setup at all it chunks defensive Kyogre and ohko's bulky Rayquaza-mega even at -1 special attack. It also hits the vast majority of the tier for huge damage, providing excellent coverage. The Ev's are set to outspeed the standard Rayquaza set at this time.NOTdiancie (Kyurem-White) @ Iron Plate
Ability: Wonder Guard
EVs: 32 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 220 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Searing Shot
- Judgment
- Shell Smash
- Freeze-Dry
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
NOTdiancie (Kyurem-White) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Huge Power
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Icicle Crash
- Poison Jab
- Leaf Blade
- Close Combat
this set mostly works. Huge power Kyurem-White is not very good, however it does its job. Icicle crash does 80-95% to Physically defensive giratina however, which is astonishingly close to huge power MMX's play rough. Poison jab ohko's xerneas and other bulky fairy types like its supposed to, and leaf blade is there as coverage to hit Kyogre, which is one of the best defensive pokemon right now. Close combat is there to hit things like blissey, farceus, slaking, and gigas, and chunks or ohko's them nicely. While this set doesn't compare to other better huge power users, it is still able to perform its job quite satisfactorily. Ability: Huge Power
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Icicle Crash
- Poison Jab
- Leaf Blade
- Close Combat
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
NOTdiancie (Kyurem-White) @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Freeze-Dry
- Defog
- Heal Order
- Whirlwind
Magic bounce is to deal with hazards. This team struggles massively with hazards (mainly stealth rock) as the majority of the team is weak to rock. This set also leans heavily into the more mind game esque nature of spam teams with freeze dry to make opponents question which set it is. Defog is the primary hazard removal and pairing with Magic bounce provides protection from fast taunt users like Beedrill and support Deo-Speed. Heal order is to be able to safely come in on hazards without needing wish support, and lastly whirlwind is to annoy and remove pesky SubPass/minimize sets. I chose leftovers as the item for some passive heals.Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Freeze-Dry
- Defog
- Heal Order
- Whirlwind
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
NOTdiancie (Kyurem-White) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Turboblaze
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fusion Flare
- Draco Meteor
- Flash Cannon
- Ice Beam
This set is here as a monument to Kyurem-white being the only pokemon to have a competitively viable set that it can obtain in game without any hacks or cheats. It still works as an offensive wallbreaker as well, making it a nice addition to the team. Fusion flare is there to provide some simple coverage and fill out the moveslots. Flash cannon works against all the common fairy types in the metagame that this team hates so much. Draco meteor was a tough choice when designing this team. While its great power, stab bonus, and specs boost make it essentially a kill button, Kyurem is almost always forced to switch out after using it putting you into an uncomfortable position. However the worth outweighs the risks and having something that can just remove almost anything that tries to tank or switch into it is extremely valuable. Ice beam is the last move and again it works the same as fusion flare, being just a move to fill space and provide coverage while still being stab boosted.Ability: Turboblaze
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fusion Flare
- Draco Meteor
- Flash Cannon
- Ice Beam
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
diancie removal (Regigigas) @ Silk Scarf
Ability: Shadow Tag
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 Def
Adamant Nature
- Fake Out
- Water Shuriken
- Bullet Punch
- Extreme Speed
Like the name says, this Gigas is designed to trap and remove the single most annoying pokemon for this team, Diancie-mega. Running fake out is standard, and helps break focus sash and stop any level one tricks that lower ranked players may try to pull. Water shuriken is crucial as it destroys Primal Groudon, one of the best shell smash/banded sweepers the metagame has. Bullet punch sounds like an odd choice, but is actually for imposter proofing, as it deals huge damage to any copied Kyurem-white. Extreme Speed forms the other half of its fakespeed core, and while this set doesn't run spikes, water shuriken can hit most things running King's shield for super effective, and provides the non contact option it needs.Ability: Shadow Tag
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 Def
Adamant Nature
- Fake Out
- Water Shuriken
- Bullet Punch
- Extreme Speed
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
whismicott (Kyogre-Primal) @ Shed Shell
Ability: Wonder Guard
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Wish
- King's Shield
- Aromatherapy
- Parting Shot
Kyogre is an incredibly good defensive option with a good base 100 Spd stat and a phenomenal base 160 Spd. This kyogre set puts that hp stat to work as a wishpasser, something that the team desperately needs with its rocks weakness. This kyogre also opts to run aromatherapy to deal with toxic and sleep spam. While it lacks the ability to manage setup sweepers like whirlwind sets do, I have found that spread healing is more beneficial for the team.Ability: Wonder Guard
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Wish
- King's Shield
- Aromatherapy
- Parting Shot
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Checks:
Diancie-mega. Even with gigas being tailored to remove it, its power as a pixilate fakespeeder still threaten my team greatly, and force out everything except for kyogre, letting it set toxic spikes as it pleases.
Rayquaza-mega. while more than half the team instantly kills it with anything more than a frozen breath, once set up behind a sub it is annoyingly hard to remove, which is surprising considering its a team of strong ice types.
Huge power sets. If they have the right coverage, huge power users like mega-mewtwo-x hurt the team quite a bit, and gigas's ability to ohko them has been not guaranteed.
If you have any suggestions or comments, I would love to get some feedback! And I hope this team helps Kyurem-white rise at lease a little in ranking.
Importable: https://pokepast.es/78c37a06d75b202f
Kyurem-White spamThis is a spin-off of Deer spam by Mbouchon, and only exists to spite certain community members who will not be named. I chose Kyurem-White as they are my second favorite Pure hackmons pokemon and again to spite certain community members were trash talking it.
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________This is one of the best sets for Kyurem-white and is one I use quite often. Searing shot is just the "fourth move". A coverage option that can be swapped out depending on what wonder guards are popular, searing shot threatens a number of common wonder guards such as beedrill-mega and Scizor-mega, while also providing an option to hit steel types. Iron plate judgement allows for imposter proofing and ohko's defensive xerneas after boosting. Shell smash is simply the best setup move available in this generation. Freeze-dry is the main reason this set is viable, with no setup at all it chunks defensive Kyogre and ohko's bulky Rayquaza-mega even at -1 special attack. It also hits the vast majority of the tier for huge damage, providing excellent coverage. The Ev's are set to outspeed the standard Rayquaza set at this time.
NOTdiancie (Kyurem-White) @ Iron Plate
Ability: Wonder Guard
EVs: 32 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 220 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Searing Shot
- Judgment
- Shell Smash
- Freeze-Dry
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
NOTdiancie (Kyurem-White) @ Choice Scarfthis set mostly works. Huge power Kyurem-White is not very good, however it does its job. Icicle crash does 80-95% to Physically defensive giratina however, which is astonishingly close to huge power MMX's play rough. Poison jab ohko's xerneas and other bulky fairy types like its supposed to, and leaf blade is there as coverage to hit Kyogre, which is one of the best defensive pokemon right now. Close combat is there to hit things like blissey, farceus, slaking, and gigas, and chunks or ohko's them nicely. While this set doesn't compare to other better huge power users, it is still able to perform its job quite satisfactorily.
Ability: Huge Power
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Icicle Crash
- Poison Jab
- Leaf Blade
- Close Combat
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
NOTdiancie (Kyurem-White) @ LeftoversMagic bounce is to deal with hazards. This team struggles massively with hazards (mainly stealth rock) as the majority of the team is weak to rock. This set also leans heavily into the more mind game esque nature of spam teams with freeze dry to make opponents question which set it is. Defog is the primary hazard removal and pairing with Magic bounce provides protection from fast taunt users like Beedrill and support Deo-Speed. Heal order is to be able to safely come in on hazards without needing wish support, and lastly whirlwind is to annoy and remove pesky SubPass/minimize sets. I chose leftovers as the item for some passive heals.
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Freeze-Dry
- Defog
- Heal Order
- Whirlwind
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
NOTdiancie (Kyurem-White) @ Choice SpecsThis set is here as a monument to Kyurem-white being the only pokemon to have a competitively viable set that it can obtain in game without any hacks or cheats. It still works as an offensive wallbreaker as well, making it a nice addition to the team. Fusion flare is there to provide some simple coverage and fill out the moveslots. Flash cannon works against all the common fairy types in the metagame that this team hates so much. Draco meteor was a tough choice when designing this team. While its great power, stab bonus, and specs boost make it essentially a kill button, Kyurem is almost always forced to switch out after using it putting you into an uncomfortable position. However the worth outweighs the risks and having something that can just remove almost anything that tries to tank or switch into it is extremely valuable. Ice beam is the last move and again it works the same as fusion flare, being just a move to fill space and provide coverage while still being stab boosted.
Ability: Turboblaze
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fusion Flare
- Draco Meteor
- Flash Cannon
- Ice Beam
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
diancie removal (Regigigas) @ Silk ScarfLike the name says, this Gigas is designed to trap and remove the single most annoying pokemon for this team, Diancie-mega. Running fake out is standard, and helps break focus sash and stop any level one tricks that lower ranked players may try to pull. Water shuriken is crucial as it destroys Primal Groudon, one of the best shell smash/banded sweepers the metagame has. Bullet punch sounds like an odd choice, but is actually for imposter proofing, as it deals huge damage to any copied Kyurem-white. Extreme Speed forms the other half of its fakespeed core, and while this set doesn't run spikes, water shuriken can hit most things running King's shield for super effective, and provides the non contact option it needs.
Ability: Shadow Tag
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 Def
Adamant Nature
- Fake Out
- Water Shuriken
- Bullet Punch
- Extreme Speed
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
whismicott (Kyogre-Primal) @ Shed ShellKyogre is an incredibly good defensive option with a good base 100 Spd stat and a phenomenal base 160 Spd. This kyogre set puts that hp stat to work as a wishpasser, something that the team desperately needs with its rocks weakness. This kyogre also opts to run aromatherapy to deal with toxic and sleep spam. While it lacks the ability to manage setup sweepers like whirlwind sets do, I have found that spread healing is more beneficial for the team.
Ability: Wonder Guard
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Wish
- King's Shield
- Aromatherapy
- Parting Shot
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Checks:
Diancie-mega. Even with gigas being tailored to remove it, its power as a pixilate fakespeeder still threaten my team greatly, and force out everything except for kyogre, letting it set toxic spikes as it pleases.
Rayquaza-mega. while more than half the team instantly kills it with anything more than a frozen breath, once set up behind a sub it is annoyingly hard to remove, which is surprising considering its a team of strong ice types.
Huge power sets. If they have the right coverage, huge power users like mega-mewtwo-x hurt the team quite a bit, and gigas's ability to ohko them has been not guaranteed.
If you have any suggestions or comments, I would love to get some feedback! And I hope this team helps Kyurem-white rise at lease a little in ranking.
Importable: https://pokepast.es/78c37a06d75b202f
This is a pretty interesting take on Kyurem-White spam. There are a few things I want to say, though. I think the Huge Power on Kyurem is a mostly inferior option to Parental Bond. Freeze-Dry gets significantly boosted, which allows it to threaten Primal Kyogre, and Secret Sword can be used to hit Blissey. It also allows you to more adequately threaten Primal Groudon, a huge threat for this team. The team also struggles against Shadow Tag. Shadow Tag Primal Groudon and MMX have a field day against this team, as not only do they remove most of your offensive pieces but they threaten the Wonder Guard Kyurem White as well. Furthermore, they cannot be revenge killed by Slaking. This team also struggles against Mold Breaker Mega Gengar, since Secret Sword is super effective on 5/6 of the team members and it is not trapped by Slaking. Mold Breaker Xerneas fair similarly, but is more threatened offensively. It should be noted that Pixilate Diancie can run Shed Shell to match up better against Shadow Tag, but it is not as common as Lum Berry. Choice Specs Mold Breaker Kyurem White does not like Mega Gyarados on the opposing team. If you get a kill with Draco Meteor, it can exploit your lowered Special Attack and Pursuit-trap you. If you use Ice Beam, Flash Cannon, or Fusion Flare it can switch in on you and Pursuit-trap you. It is also walled by specially defensive Blissey, and Primal Kyogre can switch in on it fairly safely, unless Stealth Rocks are up:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Turboblaze Kyurem-White Draco Meteor over 2 turns vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Kyogre-Primal: 329-389 (81.4 - 96.2%) -- 56.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
I think a Shell Smash variant of Kyurem-White would work better. Changing the moves on the set also works. Freeze-Dry over Ice Beam, Secret Sword over Flash Cannon, etc. The team also requires very good use of Magic Bounce Kyurem in order to keep Stealth Rock off the field. This can be difficult, especially when facing Pokemon like Substitute + Baton Pass Xerneas, which commonly runs Stealth Rock.
Overall, I think you did a great job with what you had to work with, and I love seeing the creativity. Unfortunately, Kyurem White is just very bad. I do think you could have some success on the ladder if you played well, though! :)
thanks for the help, Something I should have added is that the specs teravolt K-white is a set that is legally obtainable (added at the request of another player) and while ok, is like you said outclassed by a shell smash set with freeze dry and secret sword. I will add that in. Parental bond instead of huge power was something i hadn't thought of, so I will be switching it to that.
ORAS sample submission: We Three (Triple Ray team)
Paste: https://pokepast.es/a2b7719974b65c41
RMT post:
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/pure-hackmons-we-three-triple-ray-team.3719064/
Why should you make this a sample? Well honestly idk but there was another dude using it on ladder just now
Also, Arkeis found it scary enough to hard cteam with two bastiodons
and huge power ice shard bee 
Paste: https://pokepast.es/a2b7719974b65c41
RMT post:
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/pure-hackmons-we-three-triple-ray-team.3719064/
Why should you make this a sample? Well honestly idk but there was another dude using it on ladder just now
Also, Arkeis found it scary enough to hard cteam with two bastiodons
and huge power ice shard bee Turboblaze Rayquaza offense
Special thanks to Shay's Fate and Wrathoftheleopard for helping me make this team
Groudon-Primal @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Shadow Tag
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Trick
- Power Whip
- V-create
- Thousand Arrows
Diancie-Mega @ Leftovers
Ability: Pixilate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spe
Lonely Nature
- Fake Out
- Extreme Speed
- Boomburst
- Spore
Rayquaza-Mega @ Draco Plate
Ability: Turboblaze
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Judgment
- Shell Smash
- Oblivion Wing
- Dark Void
Rayquaza-Mega @ Sky Plate
Ability: Turboblaze
EVs: 208 HP / 252 SpA / 48 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Shell Smash
- Oblivion Wing
- Taunt
Ability: Turboblaze
EVs: 208 HP / 252 SpA / 48 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Shell Smash
- Oblivion Wing
- Taunt
Gengar-Mega @ Black Sludge
Ability: Wonder Guard
EVs: 8 HP / 248 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Baton Pass
- Shadow Ball
- Toxic Spikes
Giratina @ Safety Goggles
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD / 4 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Heal Order
- Glare
- Encore
- Curse
Audino-Mega @ Shed Shell
Ability: Wonder Guard
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Defog
- Recover
- Parting Shot
- Aromatherapy
Huge thanks again to Shay's fate and Wrathoftheleopard, this team would not be anywhere near as good without their inputs.
If you have any suggestions, I will gladly take any and all feedback!
I swear I have this exact team in my builder, lol. It really goes to show how good the STAG Pdon + Sub Ray + Diancie core is right now. Wonder Guard Gengar is a cool pick, I've used it before and really like it. The only thing that holds it back is Fissure weakness, but not many people who play at a high level use Fissure so it's fine most of the time. I was actually playing against someone and they used this team, it wasn't you though. After playing that game I realized the team loses pretty hard to Wonder Guard Gyarados @ Gyaradosite, lol.Turboblaze Rayquaza offense
Special thanks to Shay's Fate and Wrathoftheleopard for helping me make this team
Primal Groudon is one of the most powerful attackers in ORAS pure hackmons. With shadow tag being a great compliment to that strength. This is a standard set with scarf to out speed almost everything at base, and comfortably trap pokemon such as Beedrill-Mega. This set opts for Power whip over spikes to surprise pokemon such as Primal Kyogre and Swampert-Mega. Another option would be to replace Power Whip with Bolt Strike, however this only lets you hit pokemon such as Gyarados, which is not as common as Swampert-Mega
Groudon-Primal @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Shadow Tag
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Trick
- Power Whip
- V-create
- Thousand Arrows
Diancie-mega is one of the tiers most useful fakespeeders. With Great offensive typing and stats, Diancie can comfortably check most setup sweepers, and the ones that don't are handled by the combination of Giratina and Groudon-primal. Boomburst allows for anti-substitute measures, and spore allows Diancie to have some offensive pressure even on pokemon it cannot hit. leftovers could be swapped for shed shell, safety goggles, or pixie plate (all are decent options in their own right) however none of these offer the longevity that leftovers adds to the mix, making it the best option here.
Diancie-Mega @ Leftovers
Ability: Pixilate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spe
Lonely Nature
- Fake Out
- Extreme Speed
- Boomburst
- Spore
Rayquaza-mega is a powerful offensive presence, and while it can't ohko everything, it can punch holes in teams if not taken care of. the set here opts for judgement over substitute for Giratina, and to imposter proof the set. Dark void ensures that pokemon who could live a hit and retaliate (Blissey, Chansey, and Aegislash-shield to name a few) are pacified for a few turns. This could be swapped for taunt to block whirlwind users, however that does not prevent chatter, which can force Rayquaza out. This set opts to run little speed, as a +2 Rayquaza outspeeds almost everything naturally, and rayquaza needs investment into its HP stat. Also included is a more common set, which can be substituted for the judgement set at the users discretion.
Rayquaza-Mega @ Draco Plate
Ability: Turboblaze
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Judgment
- Shell Smash
- Oblivion Wing
- Dark Void
Rayquaza-Mega @ Sky Plate
Ability: Turboblaze
EVs: 208 HP / 252 SpA / 48 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Shell Smash
- Oblivion Wing
- Taunt
Gengar Mega has a great speed stat, and a powerful stab shadow ball. Taking advantage of its high hp and SpA as a defensive SubPass allows Gengar to thrive. And with the added bonus of a 248 SpA shadow ball being a guaranteed 2HKO on non HP invested groudon, and dealing 53 to 64% against physically defensive Giratina. Toxic spikes allow Gengar to spread status and lets it stall hp back from black sludge before passing on the sub. No HP investment is needed as This mon is not living anything anyway. An alternative option not shown here is sludge wave, which can threaten defensive pokemon like Audino-mega and Xerneas, however running sludge wave means Gengar can no longer threaten Giratina and loses any potential of forcing out pokemon like Mega Mewtwo-X, Mega-Mewtwo-Y, Groudon-primal, and Deoxys-Attack.
Gengar-Mega @ Black Sludge
Ability: Wonder Guard
EVs: 8 HP / 248 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Baton Pass
- Shadow Ball
- Toxic Spikes
Giratina is the primary defensive pokemon in ORAS, and prankster sets allow for Tina to take full advantage of its incredible bulk. This set opts for a standard defensive EV spread, with 4 speed to outspeed other Giratina, who don't run any speed. Tina is also the teams primary anti setup, with curse forcing out almost everything in the metagame. Running glare is an option that allows for permanent damage to offensive pokemon, and can annoy almost any defensive pokemon while not hurting Tina as much as other statuses if it is bounced. Other options to replace glare are will-o-wisp to chip down defensive pokemon while crippling physical attackers, spore for accurate prankster sleep, which is also imposter proofed by safety goggles, and baton pass, which lets Tina shrug off pursuit sets. Another reason glare was chosen over these is the combination of glare into curse, which can force a pokemon with aromatherapy in, and then chip them down or encore them into a free switch.
Giratina @ Safety Goggles
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD / 4 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Heal Order
- Glare
- Encore
- Curse
Audino-mega is a great defensive option that can often live a hit from a huge power pokemon before switching out, Audino also has an incredibly low speed stat, ensuring that it will almost always go last, which can both be a huge help in guaranteeing safe switch ins for stronger yet frail pokemon, but can also have the negative in that almost anything can taunt Audino freely. Audino is the teams hazard control and healing, so keeping it alive is incredibly important, however this can be exploited. Audino is also pivotal in insuring that the team is imposter proof. As otherwise an imposter chansey who copies gengar could run through the team if it gets a substitute up.
Audino-Mega @ Shed Shell
Ability: Wonder Guard
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Defog
- Recover
- Parting Shot
- Aromatherapy
Huge thanks again to Shay's fate and Wrathoftheleopard, this team would not be anywhere near as good without their inputs.
If you have any suggestions, I will gladly take any and all feedback!
There are a few cool tweaks you make that I think are interesting, though. Spore on Diancie is a menace, and Draco Plate Rayquaza also sounds quite neat. I'll definitely give this team a shot and see what I think, it looks quite fun, and pretty great too. Great job!
Alright, time for some much needed VR updates for gen 7:
S -> S+
Chansey is at least as good as Mega Mewtwo X. It is just as meta-defining, and it has just as much -- if not more -- of a presence both in a battle and in the teambuilder as it. Teams are completely designed with synergy to beat this thing in mind. It serves as a great offensive tool, being able to copy the almighty MMX as well as anything else it sees fit and serves as a great defensive tool with its absolutely titanic bulk when transformed. Innards Out sets are almost as good, being the best blanket check imaginable to powerful sweepers around. Both Imposter and Innards Out sets can use their absurd special bulk to imposter-proof powerful special attackers as well. This mon is meta-defining in ways that nearly every other Pokemon on the VR wishes they could be, and clearly deserves a spot at the top of the list.
UR -> B
A decent Innards Out user with the niche of being offensively threatening as well, with Shell Smash and Sunsteel Strike STAB. Instead of sitting around waiting to die like the role typically does, it can actually do something and be sacrificed later as well. But it has a few issues, most notably its very low attack. It needs multiple Shell Smash boosts to be threatening, and against Zygarde Complete, one of the best walls in the tier? Forget it ever forcing progress with this thing. However, the brokeness of Innards Out cannot be understated, and it performs well in some matchups, and in games where Zygarde and similar walls can be removed, so it earns a low but respectable B- ranking.
UR -> B
Same idea as Excadrill, except its far more threatening offensively thanks to its Dragon STAB OHKOing Zygarde Complete after a boost. STAB on Moongeist Beam helps it be sufficiently threatening to Wonder Guard users, but its last move can't cover for all the immunities that it has, so it goes in the B tier.
C -> B
The fabled triple moldy resistance along with great bulk allow this thing to be a defensive behemoth with the right set. Posion Heal sets can also lure Imposter Chansey and burn it will Will-O-Wisp for later. Pretty straightforward, but it's effective nonetheless
C -> UR
In a world of Imposter Chansey, Pikachu is useless. It's only niche is being able to do more damage than the opponent if it can win a speedtie, but thanks to the imposter-conscious meta of gen 7 pure hackmons, it makes no progress against competently imposter-proofed teams. It also doesn't have the defensive utility of Chansey, either, making this Pokemon outclassed on every level and left basically worthless.
S -> S+Chansey is at least as good as Mega Mewtwo X. It is just as meta-defining, and it has just as much -- if not more -- of a presence both in a battle and in the teambuilder as it. Teams are completely designed with synergy to beat this thing in mind. It serves as a great offensive tool, being able to copy the almighty MMX as well as anything else it sees fit and serves as a great defensive tool with its absolutely titanic bulk when transformed. Innards Out sets are almost as good, being the best blanket check imaginable to powerful sweepers around. Both Imposter and Innards Out sets can use their absurd special bulk to imposter-proof powerful special attackers as well. This mon is meta-defining in ways that nearly every other Pokemon on the VR wishes they could be, and clearly deserves a spot at the top of the list.
UR -> BA decent Innards Out user with the niche of being offensively threatening as well, with Shell Smash and Sunsteel Strike STAB. Instead of sitting around waiting to die like the role typically does, it can actually do something and be sacrificed later as well. But it has a few issues, most notably its very low attack. It needs multiple Shell Smash boosts to be threatening, and against Zygarde Complete, one of the best walls in the tier? Forget it ever forcing progress with this thing. However, the brokeness of Innards Out cannot be understated, and it performs well in some matchups, and in games where Zygarde and similar walls can be removed, so it earns a low but respectable B- ranking.
UR -> BSame idea as Excadrill, except its far more threatening offensively thanks to its Dragon STAB OHKOing Zygarde Complete after a boost. STAB on Moongeist Beam helps it be sufficiently threatening to Wonder Guard users, but its last move can't cover for all the immunities that it has, so it goes in the B tier.
C -> BThe fabled triple moldy resistance along with great bulk allow this thing to be a defensive behemoth with the right set. Posion Heal sets can also lure Imposter Chansey and burn it will Will-O-Wisp for later. Pretty straightforward, but it's effective nonetheless
C -> URIn a world of Imposter Chansey, Pikachu is useless. It's only niche is being able to do more damage than the opponent if it can win a speedtie, but thanks to the imposter-conscious meta of gen 7 pure hackmons, it makes no progress against competently imposter-proofed teams. It also doesn't have the defensive utility of Chansey, either, making this Pokemon outclassed on every level and left basically worthless.
All C subranks got combined into C because the meta is not developed enough to distinguish the viability of the Pokemon down there too well
UR -> S-
We forgot to rank this thing. It's Meloetta but a little worse, so it goes right below it.
UR -> B+
Sporting a 4x resistance to Photon Geyser, a resistance to Sunsteel Strike, and great attack it's surprising we neglected this Pokemon for so long. We know it has good defensive utility because of its Prankster and Fur Coat sets, and Wonder Guard can help it in some aspects to be even better at that, depending on what you want out of it. Its good attack means you can run Sunsteel Strike yourself, and put some pressure on your foes instead of being a passive pivot, which is useful as well .
UR -> B+
Same as NDM, but has better bulk and speed at the cost of attack. A perfectly fine choice, basically equal.
B+ -> A-
Triple moldy resistance, faster than mmx, and runs the metagross set really well. Not much else to say, it's just a solid mon (because fast sleep is broken as hell KEK)
UR -> B
ashgren lite with moongeist Immunity instead of triply moldy resistance
B -> UR
If you're running bulky xern, Mega Audino is better because it has actual bulk and a Moongeist Beam immunity. Defensively, this thing does nothing because its stats are just too low for the crazy power level of the tier, and has ZERO useful resistances or immunities. If you want to run it offensively, it also sucks at that. 131 SpA is way too low in order to grab the KOs the thing wants, and it has no moldy move STAB, either. You're better off running Magearna or Mega Gardevoir, Xerneas is actively bad at doing damage.
B+ -> A-
Super solid mon. Good defensively with Photon Geyser immunity and weaknesses to only Fairy and Bug. Its great offenses and Psychic STAB make a great WG Shell Smash user with Photon Geyser, Pixie Plate Judgment, and Thousand Arrows or whatever other move you want for coverage. It hits almost everything hard once boosted, and self improofs as well.
B+ -> C
Doesn't do too much. Sunsteel and Photon resistances are offset by its lack of bulk, so it often gets 2HKOed anyway like it didn't have them. Speed isn't low enough to be a good pivot nor fast enough to do anything disruptive. It's kind just... there. It only barely hangs onto C because of the good typing and decent-ish mixed attacking stats. Mostly outclassed by Mega Scizor except in only a few instances
C -> UR
dogshit
C -> UR
dogshit
C -> UR
dogshit
C -> UR
dogshit
C -> UR
dogshit
C -> UR
bahamut told me he would remove pikachu if we removed electrode
UR -> S-We forgot to rank this thing. It's Meloetta but a little worse, so it goes right below it.
UR -> B+Sporting a 4x resistance to Photon Geyser, a resistance to Sunsteel Strike, and great attack it's surprising we neglected this Pokemon for so long. We know it has good defensive utility because of its Prankster and Fur Coat sets, and Wonder Guard can help it in some aspects to be even better at that, depending on what you want out of it. Its good attack means you can run Sunsteel Strike yourself, and put some pressure on your foes instead of being a passive pivot, which is useful as well .
UR -> B+Same as NDM, but has better bulk and speed at the cost of attack. A perfectly fine choice, basically equal.
B+ -> A-Triple moldy resistance, faster than mmx, and runs the metagross set really well. Not much else to say, it's just a solid mon (because fast sleep is broken as hell KEK)
UR -> Bashgren lite with moongeist Immunity instead of triply moldy resistance
B -> URIf you're running bulky xern, Mega Audino is better because it has actual bulk and a Moongeist Beam immunity. Defensively, this thing does nothing because its stats are just too low for the crazy power level of the tier, and has ZERO useful resistances or immunities. If you want to run it offensively, it also sucks at that. 131 SpA is way too low in order to grab the KOs the thing wants, and it has no moldy move STAB, either. You're better off running Magearna or Mega Gardevoir, Xerneas is actively bad at doing damage.
B+ -> A-Super solid mon. Good defensively with Photon Geyser immunity and weaknesses to only Fairy and Bug. Its great offenses and Psychic STAB make a great WG Shell Smash user with Photon Geyser, Pixie Plate Judgment, and Thousand Arrows or whatever other move you want for coverage. It hits almost everything hard once boosted, and self improofs as well.
B+ -> CDoesn't do too much. Sunsteel and Photon resistances are offset by its lack of bulk, so it often gets 2HKOed anyway like it didn't have them. Speed isn't low enough to be a good pivot nor fast enough to do anything disruptive. It's kind just... there. It only barely hangs onto C because of the good typing and decent-ish mixed attacking stats. Mostly outclassed by Mega Scizor except in only a few instances
C -> URdogshit
C -> URdogshit
C -> URdogshit
C -> URdogshit
C -> URdogshit
C -> URbahamut told me he would remove pikachu if we removed electrode
If you struggle to gyarados, then just swap power whip for bolt strike, I just found swampert to be more common when playtesting, but both work mostly fine
Mono in PH, Gen 6 Edition
We're going back to Gen 6, where there are no moldy moves, so Psychic doesn't win all the time! Yay! And instead of just listing all the possible threats, I'll talk about the types how I want to talk about them. So let's start!
Normal
The first thing I thought of was, which does Audino things. Pairing it up with
to completely wall all special attackers, except for the patented Bug Buzz
or
too. You could also potentially run Prankster
. No Guard
. Fur Coat
is also a neat option to fight against -ate users, but I wouldn't recommend it because of
Fire
is the next Wonder Guard that should be employed, because it switches into Flying- and Rock-type attacks. Finally, the third Wonder Guard should be
or
, as they both switch in to Water-type moves for the pair. They're very similar, but I prefer
could help out, and pass Substitute for Turboblaze
Water
Water lostform a perfect combo except for Freeze-Dry, which
and
Electric
, as it is the only Electric-type Wonder Guard that can switch into Thousand Arrows. Electric has many fast Pokemon, so a Teravolt lead such as
or
and
. Speaking of Imposter, it's useful to Electric because their best form of cleaning is
Grass
Wonder Guardis necessary because of Grass's high abundance of weaknesses. It is best paired with Wonder Guard
can be played as a No Guard or a Mold Breaker, as
Endure are useful tactics. Here's my take on Grass: https://pokepast.es/5bf4c5dafbd5c136
Ice
Ice is another type who needs 3 Wonder Guards.is able to cover the most weaknesses in a single Wonder Guard, having a neutrality to both Fire- and Steel-type moves. Sadly, there is no Pokemon who can cover both Rock- and Fighting-type attacks, so we must use two different Wonder Guards to cover each of these weaknesses.
is the only Ice-type Pokemon with a neutrality to Rock, and as for Fighting,
is the best choice due to its Ghost-type allowing it to escape Shadow Tag without
.
uses Refrigerate like it did before.
Fighting
is a great Wonder Guard with a neutrality to all of Fighting's weaknesses. It can run a
so that
Poison
Poison has a natural weakness to Ground, so Wonder Guardis also a very solid Wonder Guard, being able to Pursuit
could potentially act as a Fissure immunity with Magic Bounce or Mold Breaker to ward off No Guard users with Fissure. Here's my take on Poison: https://pokepast.es/ec234643c169690a
Ground
Wonder Guardcan completely wall Huge Power. I wouldn't recommend it very much because Ground already has a good matchup against Huge Power. Ground isn't especially fast, so a Prankster user, like
,
could really help out for fast Spores or Substitutes. Because Ground is slower than usual, Thunder Wave Pokemon could help out a lot for speed control. Aerilate
are some good Mold Breakers. Here's my take on Ground: https://pokepast.es/bfabd77ca7b45315
Flying
Flying definitely got worse due to Sheer Cold's lack of immunities, rendingunfit as a glue to the team. Due to Flying's heavy difficulty with No Guard, it needs 3 Wonder Guards. One of these should be
or
to round off the Ice immunities. Shadow Tag
with
could serve to trap and eliminate many Pokemon, or it can just use a standard Perish trapping set with
.
could work wonders. Here's my take on Flying: https://pokepast.es/3d3ec8acd17a9e3d
Psychic
The first thing I thought of wasusing Mold Breaker to effortlessly sweep.
, Pixilate
could be run for a Magic Bounce immunity. Here's my take on Psychic: https://pokepast.es/7c1ae5294678adb4
Bug
Wonder Guardis another option who also has rare weaknesses. Bug is very weak to hazards, so a Magic Guard Defog user like
sound like the best choices. Speaking of
Rock
and
complement each other perfectly.
helps out with Rock's weakness to Shell Smash Mold Breaker users, being able to fire off strong Pixilate Extreme Speeds. While I normally wouldn't resort to cheap strategies such as Minimize + Baton Pass, Rock is such a bad type that it needs cheap strategies to work out. Here's my take on Rock: https://pokepast.es/f332519038b96f6d
Ghost
Wonder Guardabsorbs both Ghost- and Dark-type attacks in one. It can be paired with any other Ghost-type Wonder Guard, such as
,
, or
. Wonder Guard
with a
with Prankster or Magic Bounce is also useful, for obvious reasons. Fur Coat
could also be useful to wall Huge Power. Here's my take on Ghost: https://pokepast.es/b5413826bcf17154
Dragon
is the best Wonder Guard available, and
improof it. Here's my take on Dragon: https://pokepast.es/f4d9871566b7fddd
Dark
Wonder Guardor
instead of
,
, or
would be very useful as no Dark-type Pokemon rises above 125 Speed.
Steel
Steel is an incredibly slow type, and it has not yet gotten the wonders of Imposteris the prime Wonder Guard because it resists two of Steel's weaknesses.
both have Fire neutralities to help out
could be a Prankster user with Curse.
can be an effective Wonder Guard or Mold Breaker, abusing Shell Smash on both sets.
Fairy
The fearfulis the secondary Wonder Guard, and while it carries a weakness to Fissure, it has perfect synergy with
, and the only Poison neutralities have Fissure weaknesses.
with Prankster or Fur Coat could use Spore without being scared of Magic Bounce.
is useful because of the aforementioned Speed issues. Here's my take on Fairy: https://pokepast.es/e0ab03f482029aaa
That's everything! Too bad I spent my whole day doing this, now I expect loves and not measly ass likes like I got last time after 3 days of grueling work
There's an error here: The teams here are for Gen 6, however, two of the three Gyarados have Power Trip, which is a Gen 7 move.
My gen 6 pure hackmons team.
ItsAPrankBro (Deoxys-Speed) @ Safety Goggles
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Spore
- Simple Beam
- Psychic
- Thousand Arrows
LanternBlock (Lanturn) (F) @ Air Balloon
Ability: Wonder Guard
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Coil
- Heart Swap
- Baton Pass
- Agility
No WGuard? (Lucario-Mega) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Iron Head
- Aura Sphere
- Dark Pulse
- Thousand Arrows
Death (Rayquaza-Mega) @ Life Orb
Ability: Huge Power
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Dragon Ascent
- Overheat
- Dragon Pulse
- Close Combat
ReverseLogic (Reshiram) @ Safety Goggles
Ability: Contrary
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- V-create
- Draco Meteor
- Superpower
- Dragon Ascent
NormalMatch (Gengar) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Normalize
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Agility
- Shadow Ball
- Poison Jab
- Skill Swap
Explanation: Deoxys mostly runs sheer cold and no guard in this mode. I use spore prankster trick people into bringing counters to it. Then i spore, simple beam and sometimes damage.
Lanturn is for set up.
Rayquaza deals damage with huge power life orb. It destimates.
Reshiram contrary after set up is a monster.
Lucario is the mold breaker here.
Gengar normalize. Thats is.
ItsAPrankBro (Deoxys-Speed) @ Safety Goggles
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Spore
- Simple Beam
- Psychic
- Thousand Arrows
LanternBlock (Lanturn) (F) @ Air Balloon
Ability: Wonder Guard
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Coil
- Heart Swap
- Baton Pass
- Agility
No WGuard? (Lucario-Mega) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Iron Head
- Aura Sphere
- Dark Pulse
- Thousand Arrows
Death (Rayquaza-Mega) @ Life Orb
Ability: Huge Power
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Dragon Ascent
- Overheat
- Dragon Pulse
- Close Combat
ReverseLogic (Reshiram) @ Safety Goggles
Ability: Contrary
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- V-create
- Draco Meteor
- Superpower
- Dragon Ascent
NormalMatch (Gengar) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Normalize
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Agility
- Shadow Ball
- Poison Jab
- Skill Swap
Explanation: Deoxys mostly runs sheer cold and no guard in this mode. I use spore prankster trick people into bringing counters to it. Then i spore, simple beam and sometimes damage.
Lanturn is for set up.
Rayquaza deals damage with huge power life orb. It destimates.
Reshiram contrary after set up is a monster.
Lucario is the mold breaker here.
Gengar normalize. Thats is.
Sword/Shield Pure Hackmons
Leaders/Council: Lectrys, Ransei
Resources:
Thread(s):
Gen 8 Pure Hackmons Thread
Sample Sets:
None yet.
Sample Teams:
Lead, Yveltal, Giratina, Eiscue by Lectrys
Anti-Lead, Cram, Spiritomb by Lectrys
Are you feeling lucky? by aerobee [RMT]
Other Resources:
Viability Rankings
Burn Up Guide
How to beat Eternamax
How to build a SwSH PH Team
/tour new gen8anythinggoes,elim,,,[Gen 8] Pure Hackmons
/tour rules !Obtainable,-Future
/tour rules !Obtainable,-Future
Q: Is this Custom Game?
A: No. Custom Game is based on what the Pokémon Showdown teambuilder is capable of, while Hackmons is based around what is hackable in game and usable in local battles. Specifically, in Hackmons you are limited to a maximum level of 100, a maximum of 4 moves, a maximum of 6 Pokemon, and Showdown specific moves and abilities such as Paleo Wave and Rebound are unusable, while in Custom Game there is a max level of 9999, the maximum number of moves is 24, the maximum number of Pokemon is 24, and Showdown specific moves and abilities are usable.
QP1: Can I make my Pokémon invincible?
AP1: Eternamax can be made partially invincible by a choice between being invincible against physical base power moves and being invincible against special base power moves. A player is able to make this decision by giving their Eternamax 240 EVs in either Defense or Special Defense and then giving this same stat a "+" nature.
+SpD Eternamax
Eternatus-Eternamax @ Safety Goggles
Ability: Neutralizing Gas
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 240 SpD / 252 Spe
Careful Nature
- Spectral Thief
- Spikes
- Final Gambit
- Whirlwind
+Def Eternamax
Eternatus-Eternamax @ Safety Goggles
Ability: Neutralizing Gas
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 240 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Impish Nature
- Spectral Thief
- Spikes
- Final Gambit
- Whirlwind
Eternatus-Eternamax @ Safety Goggles
Ability: Neutralizing Gas
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 240 SpD / 252 Spe
Careful Nature
- Spectral Thief
- Spikes
- Final Gambit
- Whirlwind
+Def Eternamax
Eternatus-Eternamax @ Safety Goggles
Ability: Neutralizing Gas
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 240 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Impish Nature
- Spectral Thief
- Spikes
- Final Gambit
- Whirlwind
AP2: No Pokémon can be made fully invincible, and most gimmicky attempts in having them done end up bringing no impact towards the competitive metagame. Wonder Guard + Burn Up and Sturdy Shedinja are not reliable options.
Q: Why is there an Endless Battle Clause?
A: Endless Battle Clause exists in every Showdown metagame to prevent battles taking too long and lagging the server. This acts similar to the in-game timer system, but more loose, meaning battles can extend further with Endless Battle Clause than it could with in-game timer.
Last edited:
Gen 8 Pure Hackmons Viability Rankings!
Welcome to the Pure Hackmons Viability Rankings. This is the first of many resources that are made to help players determine what can be considered viable in the metagame. These rankings are placed in alphabetical order. Anyone is free to put their thoughts on any Pokemon and debate on whether or not they need a rank change as long as they are being reasonable. The council will then take thought into each nomination and carefully form decisions regarding them. Provide clear evidence for reasons why a Pokemon should have a change in rank, and be civil about it. We want what we can believe to be the closer to fact than subjective opinions.
Current Viability Council
Lectrys
aerobee
RanseiRanking starts below:
Eternamax Rank - [Tip: Run at least one of these on every single team. Preferably 2-3.]
Eternamax is literally Gen 8 Pure Hackmons the Pokemon. With an immense BST of 1125, defenses higher than Ultra Necrozma's entire stat distribution combined, and stat overflow leaving it invincible in either Defense or Special Defense, it's been given no other choice other than to embody the entire metagame. Everything in Pure Hackmons revolves around defeating this beast whether it's through the use of OHKO moves, Shell Smash + Mixed Super Effective Psychic-type/Dragon-type/Ice-type STAB attacks, Perish Song, Comaphazing, Hazards, or Final Gambit. These methods are often made into full-on strategies used in complete teams to win because this Pokemon's presence single-handedly makes them the only wincons. Eternatus-Eternamax also heavily dictates the entire Viability Rankings. The only Pokemon that are viable are Eternamax, Pokemon that support Eternamax, Pokemon that have methods against Eternamax, and Pokemon that are counterplay to methods against Eternamax. Last but not least, teams without Eternatus-Eternamax are put into a critical disadvantage due to Eternamax being the only Pokemon fully capable of dealing with the entire rest of the metagame. Thanks to Neutralizing Gas, the likes of Zacian-Crowned and Calyrex-Shadow would break the metagame to the point where players could easily win with no effort if their opponent does not run Eternamax. Eternamax is mandatory on every team and almost every action taken for victory reflects on its presence.
In summary, not only is Eternamax mandatory in each team, but players have to take Eternamax into consideration in every step they take, whether it's through teambuilding or playing the game, and Eternamax significantly warps the entire Gen 8 Pure Hackmons Viability Rankings. Eternamax can arguably be considered as the most centralizing Pokemon to ever exist in any tier or OM format and it goes way beyond any Pokemon that would usually lie in S or S+ in other Viability Rankings.
In summary, not only is Eternamax mandatory in each team, but players have to take Eternamax into consideration in every step they take, whether it's through teambuilding or playing the game, and Eternamax significantly warps the entire Gen 8 Pure Hackmons Viability Rankings. Eternamax can arguably be considered as the most centralizing Pokemon to ever exist in any tier or OM format and it goes way beyond any Pokemon that would usually lie in S or S+ in other Viability Rankings.
S+
None!
S
S-
A Rank - [Tip: Consider these on plenty if not most of your teams.]
A+
A
A-
B Rank - [Tip: Usable but difficult to pull off effectively.]
B+
B
B-
C Rank - [Tip: Only use these if your purpose is to fulfill a small niche.]
E Rank - [Tip: Not worth using but you can try. This is Pure Hackmons after all! You may find something that works against some teams.]
Blacklist: Popular ideas that are forbidden from discussion or ever being considered above E rank.
Shedinja is a useless sitting duck against every serious Pure Hackmons team. The idea of giving Sturdy to a Pokemon with 1 HP is tempting, but Neutralizing Gas is on more Pokemon than not, shutting down Sturdy and allowing Shedinja to get KOed for free. In addition, Gen 8 Pure Hackmons is a metagame flooded with Ghost-types who block Endeavor, hazards that KO Shedinja in one touch, and phazing to force Shedinja out in front of hazards at random. Against serious teams, Shedinja cannot do anything other than faint. The combination of Ghost-types, hazards, phazing, and especially Neutralizing Gas make Shedinja outright impossible to properly use. It only works at all against opponents whose team is not prepared for the Gen 8 Pure Hackmons metagame.
Wonder Guard Burn Up users are useless sitting ducks against every serious Pure Hackmons team. The idea of removing a Wonder Guard's typing to block all attacks is temping, but Neutralizing Gas is on more Pokemon than not, shutting down Wonder Guard and allowing Burn Up users to get KOed for free. Wonder Guard users require Gastro Acid in Gen 8 Pure Hackmons, and Burn Up only just adds fire to the flame. Burn Up users would be left with two moves left to use and the fastest user Cinderace is still outsped by Calyrex-Shadow, Eternatus-Eternamax, Zacian-Crowned, and Regieleki. All three of them can either use Substitute to work around Gastro Acid and fizzle out their Burn Up or outspeed, attack, and switch out. Wonder Guards with better type combinations do not need to rely on Burn Up and can run a third move to work around their flaws more effectively. They also tend to have better stat distributions for Wonder Guards in Gen 8 Pure Hackmons. Here is a more detailed explanation of why Burn Up is not good: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/pure-hackmons.3656851/page-3#post-8375359
Last edited:
Some Gen 8 nominations (I have a draft that I've shared with other council members but I wanted to clarify my thoughts/post explanations for movements I'm thinking about).
S+ --> S
Memories are hazy, but after the November SS PH ladder I think the metagame's developed to the point where Regieleki's not S+ rank worthy anymore. Generally Pokemon ranked in S+ are those that warp the metagame around them in a significant, even extreme way (though not necessarily as extreme as does something like Eternamax). Regieleki does this to some extent, but not to the extent that I would expect of an S+ ranked Pokemon - Bolt Beak + Fissure is a deadly combination, but it can be prepared for with Pokemon like Landorus-T, offensively pressured by Choice Scarf Zacian-C and friends, and chipped by Eternamax itself if it doesn't fall to OHKO moves. A movement to flat S rank would also emphasize the gap in viability and metagame influence between Eternamax and everything else. Of course, Regieleki's still the second best Pokemon after Eternamax and flat S would be the lowest it would go.
S --> S-
This was moved to S when the Gen 8 PH resources were brought over to the Old Gen Megathread; it's just as good as before, it'd only be dropping due to Regieleki moving to S rank.
S- --> A+
Can't punish Substitute Eternamax effectively without otherwise useless stuff like Encore, gets screwed over by Gulp Missile without Comatose, and lacks OHKO immunities or potential to sweep due to getting hit by Spectral Thief and (in principle) having to run Steel STAB or Power Trip on the physical end. It's still a great Pokemon, but not great enough to be kept in the S ranks in my opinion.
A+ --> A-/B+
Crappy Shell Smash user that needs the stars aligned in order to punch holes in the opposing team - Stored Power + Psystrike sets either forgo sleep, making it impossible to sweep unless opposing Eternamax are chipped enough (this takes a while btw), or are hardwalled by Dark-types, which means you're doing nothing against maybe half the teams you're going to face. Support sets are better but I'm not convinced by them. Down to the Shadow Realm it goes.
UR --> B+/B
Objectively better than Obstagoon because non-STAB Power Trip actually hits as hard as Obstagoon's and Regigigas' bulk is significantly higher. That being said, I'm nomming Regigigas a fair bit lower than where Obstagoon currently is because it needs tremendous support to work (it needs 3 Shell Smashes to get past both physically and specially defensive Eternamax) and so it's only very rarely able to actually sweep. It can do so in the right circumstances, though.
A- --> B
You'd be hard pressed to find actual reasons to run this over Yveltal (which actually doesn't take a whole lot more from Power Trip, and also boasts a Fissure immunity). Urshifu's actually physically bulkier and therefore more able to come into Power Trip sweepers as well. I guess Grimmsnarl hits Wonder Guard Spiritomb with Play Rough/Spirit Break but that's really it. I'd nom it even lower but B- and below are where the truly atrocious Pokemon reside.
Which brings me to...
UR --> B
The hardest Shell Smash sweeper counter you'll ever see. It's actually seen occasional use too. Seems cool.
UR --> B
Sheer Cold + Fissure immunity with usable bulk on both sides. Not much more to be said here.
UR --> B
Amazing Zacian-C switch-in that doesn't get obliterated by Bolt Beak if it's at full. It also doesn't get paralyzed by Cramorant so it can attack more freely against it.
UR --> B/B-
Fissure immunity with a Double Iron Bash resistance and V-create STAB. I've tried Magic Bounce and it worked fairly well. Good special bulk lets it eat random hits, like Stored Power after Shell Smash from Indeedee and non-Life Orb Calyrex-S, and V-create them right back. Burn immunity's also useful for the occasional Lava Plume Eternamax.
UR --> B-
Indeedee was used quite a bit on ladder and it's actually scarier than you would think - I've seen it sweep competent players a fair few times, even in the DLC2 metagame. Spectral Thief immunity makes it scary enough to be rankworthy in my opinion, since alternative setup deterrence, like Whirlwind, are pretty hard to fit and effectively use in-battle. Zarude's a Psychic immunity and Dark resist that's also immune to Spore, and it actually has alright defensive stats so it has a real, if theoretical, niche.
B --> B-
Hits a little harder on the special side than Kyurem-B with Dragon Energy, Draco Meteor or whatever non-Stored Power coverage you'd be using. This would make me boot Rayquaza to C rank or even UR, but I also tried defensive sets (physically defensive Comatose) a while back and while they're extremely niche they do exist.
A --> B-/C
This is literal garbage whose only niche over Giratina-A is that it OHKOes Regieleki with Expert Belt Precipice Blades. I guess it's a Ghost-type that can threaten Zacian-C with V-create as well but this just seems awful.
A --> C
It took me a full minute to think of what it (theoretically) does over anything else. Taking Double Iron Bash when Zacian-C often runs Precipice Blades, Bolt Beak and whatnot seems pretty irrelevant, especially when Eternamax does that infinitely better (without taking Horn Drill/Guillotine into account). Off to C it goes.
A- --> C/UR
This beats mono-Psychic attack Shell Smashers! And is worse than Regigigas in every other way!
B --> C
Zapdos/Ho-Oh are pretty much always better, though neutrality to Stealth Rock is still a consideration.
B --> C
Necrozma-DW's only niche is that it takes Spectral Thief better than Calyrex-S. Since Calyrex outspeeds Eternamax, if Eternamax Spectral Thiefs a Calyrex using Shell Smash on the same turn Calyrex will be KO'ed, whereas Necrozma takes 70~80% and survives. I originally wanted this UR but Ransei says it's worth putting on the VR and it's probably as good as some Pokemon in C anyway.
B- --> C
Both of these are outclassed by already niche Pokemon and they're lucky to even be on the VR at all.
B- --> C
Disguise isn't nullified by Neutralizing Gas. It can also run funny Wonder Guard sets but that's not saving it from C rank.
These are basically Corviknight clones. I'm not sure if Celesteela and Corviknight are better than Skarmory at all, but I think we can all agree that Celesteela and Corviknight are echoes of each other.
Fissure immune Poison-type that outspeeds Overflowed Eternamax. I've used it once and it's actually not as atrocious as you would think. However it's still terrible enough that I'll only be nomming to C rank.
Can run Freeze Shock + Max Flare Comatose sets; 135 base Speed means it probably has utility outside from Comatose as well, though I haven't tried any potential non-Comatose sets in the DLC2 metagame.
Imposter lets you scout non-Neutralizing Gas Pokemon, including Cramorant-Gorging, Eiscue and Comatose/Magic Bounce users. Eternamax in particular can still run a lot of what it wants to since the lack of a useful Ability when not Transformed isn't all that terrible in a Neutralizing Gas- and Eternamax-dominated metagame.
Soft-check to Zacian-C (though it lacks any OHKO immunities), switch-in to Choice item Trick users, outspeeds Overflowed Eternamax with a positive nature, can run Focus Punch Comatose sets to some effect.
These do nothing HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
These at least seem theoretically usable - Drapion can come in on Eternamax's Trick since Black Sludge doesn't harm it, and it's a Stored Power + Psystrike sweeper check. Gourgeist-Super is a Spore immunity that's immune to Normal-type OHKO moves.
S+ --> SMemories are hazy, but after the November SS PH ladder I think the metagame's developed to the point where Regieleki's not S+ rank worthy anymore. Generally Pokemon ranked in S+ are those that warp the metagame around them in a significant, even extreme way (though not necessarily as extreme as does something like Eternamax). Regieleki does this to some extent, but not to the extent that I would expect of an S+ ranked Pokemon - Bolt Beak + Fissure is a deadly combination, but it can be prepared for with Pokemon like Landorus-T, offensively pressured by Choice Scarf Zacian-C and friends, and chipped by Eternamax itself if it doesn't fall to OHKO moves. A movement to flat S rank would also emphasize the gap in viability and metagame influence between Eternamax and everything else. Of course, Regieleki's still the second best Pokemon after Eternamax and flat S would be the lowest it would go.
S --> S-This was moved to S when the Gen 8 PH resources were brought over to the Old Gen Megathread; it's just as good as before, it'd only be dropping due to Regieleki moving to S rank.
S- --> A+Can't punish Substitute Eternamax effectively without otherwise useless stuff like Encore, gets screwed over by Gulp Missile without Comatose, and lacks OHKO immunities or potential to sweep due to getting hit by Spectral Thief and (in principle) having to run Steel STAB or Power Trip on the physical end. It's still a great Pokemon, but not great enough to be kept in the S ranks in my opinion.
A+ --> A-/B+Crappy Shell Smash user that needs the stars aligned in order to punch holes in the opposing team - Stored Power + Psystrike sets either forgo sleep, making it impossible to sweep unless opposing Eternamax are chipped enough (this takes a while btw), or are hardwalled by Dark-types, which means you're doing nothing against maybe half the teams you're going to face. Support sets are better but I'm not convinced by them. Down to the Shadow Realm it goes.
UR --> B+/BObjectively better than Obstagoon because non-STAB Power Trip actually hits as hard as Obstagoon's and Regigigas' bulk is significantly higher. That being said, I'm nomming Regigigas a fair bit lower than where Obstagoon currently is because it needs tremendous support to work (it needs 3 Shell Smashes to get past both physically and specially defensive Eternamax) and so it's only very rarely able to actually sweep. It can do so in the right circumstances, though.
A- --> BYou'd be hard pressed to find actual reasons to run this over Yveltal (which actually doesn't take a whole lot more from Power Trip, and also boasts a Fissure immunity). Urshifu's actually physically bulkier and therefore more able to come into Power Trip sweepers as well. I guess Grimmsnarl hits Wonder Guard Spiritomb with Play Rough/Spirit Break but that's really it. I'd nom it even lower but B- and below are where the truly atrocious Pokemon reside.
Which brings me to...
UR --> BThe hardest Shell Smash sweeper counter you'll ever see. It's actually seen occasional use too. Seems cool.
UR --> BSheer Cold + Fissure immunity with usable bulk on both sides. Not much more to be said here.
UR --> BAmazing Zacian-C switch-in that doesn't get obliterated by Bolt Beak if it's at full. It also doesn't get paralyzed by Cramorant so it can attack more freely against it.
UR --> B/B-Fissure immunity with a Double Iron Bash resistance and V-create STAB. I've tried Magic Bounce and it worked fairly well. Good special bulk lets it eat random hits, like Stored Power after Shell Smash from Indeedee and non-Life Orb Calyrex-S, and V-create them right back. Burn immunity's also useful for the occasional Lava Plume Eternamax.
UR --> B-Indeedee was used quite a bit on ladder and it's actually scarier than you would think - I've seen it sweep competent players a fair few times, even in the DLC2 metagame. Spectral Thief immunity makes it scary enough to be rankworthy in my opinion, since alternative setup deterrence, like Whirlwind, are pretty hard to fit and effectively use in-battle. Zarude's a Psychic immunity and Dark resist that's also immune to Spore, and it actually has alright defensive stats so it has a real, if theoretical, niche.
B --> B-Hits a little harder on the special side than Kyurem-B with Dragon Energy, Draco Meteor or whatever non-Stored Power coverage you'd be using. This would make me boot Rayquaza to C rank or even UR, but I also tried defensive sets (physically defensive Comatose) a while back and while they're extremely niche they do exist.
A --> B-/CThis is literal garbage whose only niche over Giratina-A is that it OHKOes Regieleki with Expert Belt Precipice Blades. I guess it's a Ghost-type that can threaten Zacian-C with V-create as well but this just seems awful.
A --> CIt took me a full minute to think of what it (theoretically) does over anything else. Taking Double Iron Bash when Zacian-C often runs Precipice Blades, Bolt Beak and whatnot seems pretty irrelevant, especially when Eternamax does that infinitely better (without taking Horn Drill/Guillotine into account). Off to C it goes.
A- --> C/URThis beats mono-Psychic attack Shell Smashers! And is worse than Regigigas in every other way!
B --> CZapdos/Ho-Oh are pretty much always better, though neutrality to Stealth Rock is still a consideration.
B --> CNecrozma-DW's only niche is that it takes Spectral Thief better than Calyrex-S. Since Calyrex outspeeds Eternamax, if Eternamax Spectral Thiefs a Calyrex using Shell Smash on the same turn Calyrex will be KO'ed, whereas Necrozma takes 70~80% and survives. I originally wanted this UR but Ransei says it's worth putting on the VR and it's probably as good as some Pokemon in C anyway.
B- --> CBoth of these are outclassed by already niche Pokemon and they're lucky to even be on the VR at all.
B- --> CDisguise isn't nullified by Neutralizing Gas. It can also run funny Wonder Guard sets but that's not saving it from C rank.
These are basically Corviknight clones. I'm not sure if Celesteela and Corviknight are better than Skarmory at all, but I think we can all agree that Celesteela and Corviknight are echoes of each other.
Fissure immune Poison-type that outspeeds Overflowed Eternamax. I've used it once and it's actually not as atrocious as you would think. However it's still terrible enough that I'll only be nomming to C rank.
Can run Freeze Shock + Max Flare Comatose sets; 135 base Speed means it probably has utility outside from Comatose as well, though I haven't tried any potential non-Comatose sets in the DLC2 metagame.
Imposter lets you scout non-Neutralizing Gas Pokemon, including Cramorant-Gorging, Eiscue and Comatose/Magic Bounce users. Eternamax in particular can still run a lot of what it wants to since the lack of a useful Ability when not Transformed isn't all that terrible in a Neutralizing Gas- and Eternamax-dominated metagame.
Soft-check to Zacian-C (though it lacks any OHKO immunities), switch-in to Choice item Trick users, outspeeds Overflowed Eternamax with a positive nature, can run Focus Punch Comatose sets to some effect.
These do nothing HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
These at least seem theoretically usable - Drapion can come in on Eternamax's Trick since Black Sludge doesn't harm it, and it's a Stored Power + Psystrike sweeper check. Gourgeist-Super is a Spore immunity that's immune to Normal-type OHKO moves.
Last edited:
Groudon-Primal @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 SpA / 4 Spe
Naughty Nature
- Precipice Blades
- Thousand Arrows
- Dragon Rush
- Pursuit
Groudon is mainly for the wonderguard mons that i dont want to try and use shedinja on because gastro endeavor doesn't work on ghost-types
Diancie-Mega @ Pixie Plate
Ability: Pixilate
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Naughty Nature
- Extreme Speed
- Fake Out
- Thousand Arrows
- Boomburst
this diancie is pure offense, i usually dont lead with it because of shedinja-toxic spike but if i get a open chance i get easily sweep with boomburst or extreme speed
its also very useful for contrary rayquazas that my other mons can't handle
Deoxys-Speed @ Choice Scarf
Ability: No Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Spe
IVs: 0 Atk
- Sheer Cold
- Fissure
- Horn Drill
simple sweep mons usually catches atleast 1 or 2 mons lackin with its ohko and high speed stat
Gengar-Mega @ Spooky Plate
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Judgment
- Copycat
- Dark Void
- Destiny Bond
this mon is great for all types of other mons its great balance between offense and defense with its great variety of moves
Shedinja @ Lum Berry
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Gastro Acid
- Fell Stinger
- Endeavor
- Baton Pass
average shedinja you'll find these everywhere, the thing about this mon is that most people go with the poisin spike leech seed route but with gastro acid you can dismantle wonder guards and other shedinjas
Rayquaza-Mega @ Dragon Fang
Ability: Contrary
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 SpA / 4 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Sludge Bomb
- Draco Meteor
- V-create
- Baton Pass
alot of people have this build but i chose to go with sludge bomb instead of dragon ascent to have an escape plan from fairy types
Some Gen 6 nominations (I haven't cared to think of what Pokemon could potentially be added into the regular/WG VRs, I'll add what Pokemon should be added if I think of any):
REGULAR VR:
2nd in S- --> 1st in A+
Not much has changed for Gyarados (though if anything it'd actually be better than before). I just feel that it's closer to the likes of Mega Rayquaza/Primal Groudon/Imposter than it is to MMX's viability, and a drop to the top of A+ would be appropriate.
3rd in A+ --> 2nd in A+, 2nd in A+ --> 3rd in A+
This is probably actually better than Primal Groudon at this point - Oblivion Wing sets are broken, physical sets are fairly scary with a relative absence of STAG MMX/Slaking/Regigigas, and it can run alright Gale Wings and Aerilate sets (though they're admittedly worse). Primal Groudon really only has Mold Breaker and Shadow Tag as mainstream sets, with stuff like Huge Power/Magic Bounce/No Guard/Illusion etc. being relegated to niche status. Since Gyarados would drop Rayquaza would rise to 2nd in A+, while Primal Groudon would drop to 3rd in A+ rank.
1st in A+ --> 4th in A+
Chansey hasn't gotten worse (on the contrary, it's actually become better), it's just been higher than it should have been all this time. Utility is formidable when you can complement it with adequate offense/defensive checks but a large portion of teams are unable to effectively fit Imposter in (i.e. have glaring weaknesses vs. Imposter-proofed offensive Pokemon or seriously lacking in offensive power).
4th in A --> 1st in A
Much easier to fit than Slaking and Regigigas. Boomburst sets, especially those with Lum Berry or Leftovers, deal with Oblivion Wing Rayquaza decently well even behind a Substitute (though not really in longer games), and Pursuit sets can annoy opposing Dark-weak offensive Pokemon. Mold Breaker sets are rarer but still quite scary if competently played with - mono Fairy Judgment misses out on Primal Groudon at +2 but leaves you with 3 supporting moves, Steam Eruption + Fairy STAB is still pretty good, and mixed Precipice Blades is unwallable. Imposter-proofing is also trivial with Giratina on almost every team. Slaking and Regigigas would stay where they are due to the below nom.
1st in A --> 4th in A
Have you tried building with No Guard recently? Me neither. Way too hard to fit, many Huge Power/Protean users are pseudo No Guard users anyway in that they force switches into Wonder Guard, and without Choice Scarf Deoxys-S or something you miss out on a sizable portion of boosted Shell Smash users. Still "broken" in the traditional sense though, and you aren't running Huge Power Deoxys-S or Mega Aerodactyl anytime soon (though I might try building with them every once in a while), both of which prevent it from moving further down.
5th in A --> 2nd in A-/B+
Dark Void- and item-reliant frail shit that fits on a small minority of consistent teams. The argument to keep it way up in A boils down to it being scary, which is true, and able to sweep with little trouble, which is occasionally true. However, so can pretty much any offensive Pokemon you'd consider viably using. Bulk being terrible wouldn't matter as much in a different metagame, but being Pursuit-weak/dropping to any non-Normal-type FakeSpeed after a Shell Smash means all revenging options need to be gone/functionally useless before Gengar actually does anything. This also means that it has to rely on Dark Void because Spore misses out on Safety Goggles Giratina and Taunt misses out on Gyarados. Dark Void is broken so this actually isn't much of an issue in principle but 80% accuracy's screwed it over more times than I can count. Gengar also has weird STAG/Arena Trap/Prankster sets but they're very situational and can't be called consistent in good faith. Dropping it to B+ feels appropriate, but it can probably go hard in hypothetical tour games (PH is a mu fest already though so this probably isn't happening) so just below Latios also works.
B- --> B
I was originally going to nom stone Gyarados down but it's not actually that bad so I'm doing this instead. Leftovers Beat Up sets check Oblivion Wing Rayquaza quite a bit harder than Mega Diancie does, and aside from Primal Groudon it's actually not that much worse at revenging stuff. Mold Breaker sets are niche but workable as well.
C+ --> B-
Not as bad as people think - Shed Shell is much easier to run on Refrigerate Kyurem-B than Abomasnow due to havaing 170 Attack to work with. This also means Pursuit also KOes unboosted Mega Gengar/MMY after minimal chip. It's also the best Belly Drum Mold Breaker user, with Icicle Plate Ice Shard OHKOing Giratina and not much living a +6 Extreme Speed.
C+ --> B-
If you disagree you haven't lost to it yet. Giratina might cancerpass more effectively overall but -ate and Normal-type FakeSpeed resistances go hard.
C- --> C
Bounce Kyogre sucks but it (and Prankster/Mold Breaker/Huge Power etc.) doesn't suck hard enough to be ranked at C-. Similarly, all of Yveltal's sets are mediocre but it can still soft check threats like Mega Latios/Mega Gengar/MMY, giving it more of a reason to be run than its contemporaries in C- rank. Both should rise to C, though they realistically won't rise above that unless the metagame changes significantly in their favor (not happening).
C --> C-
Mixed Mold Breaker sets are fine-ish but you aren't really running this over anything else for a genuine reason.
C- --> UR
Worse than in Gen 7 due to Wonder Guard Imposter-proofing, Pursuit, extremely common strong priority, increased Plate usage etc. And you aren't realistically using this over something like Lucky Punch Chansey. Off to UR it goes.
WONDER GUARD VR:
4th in S --> 3rd in S, 
3rd in S --> 2nd in A+
I don't like Blissey personally but it's an actual switch-in to most special Mold Breaker users, something that can't really be said for Slaking even against physically offensive Pokemon. In a vacuum Slaking's probably on par with Mega Audino but because it has competition in Blissey I'll be nomming it below.
1st in A+ --> 5th/6th in A+
Fast Gastro Acid is nice and honestly underrated, but Arceus has been ranked way too high for too long. Has too many competitors, both by typing (Blissey, Slaking, even stuff like Ditto) and Speed (Deoxys-Attack, Mega Beedrill, Mega Manectric). Whether it's 5th or 6th in A+ depends on if Deoxys-Attack and MMY are ranked separately or if they're treated only as echoes of each other.
5th in A+ --> 2nd in A
Quite a bit worse than Deoxys-A at SubPassing because of Mega Beedrill's existence (so if it's ranked separately then it would be ranked purely for offensive/weird support sets). Spooky Plate Judgment hits hard and Modest Life Orb Grass Knot actually OHKOes Mega Gyarados unboosted, something that quite literally nothing else can boast of - therefore, MMY can run Wonder Guard 4-attack sets fairly effectively. Support sets do exist but I'm not a fan of them. Worse than Scizor but probably not as bad as Mega Manectric so I'm nomming to 2nd in A.
1st in A --> 3rd in A/1st in A-
Overrated and tough to actually justify using. Fissure weakness is often shrugged off because "FiSsUrE dOeSn'T eXiSt" but it does, especially on ladder, and Thousand Arrows is arguably just as bad if not worse of a weakness to have.
1st in A- --> 4th in A-
I like this thing but Scizor exists and justifying running this over it is harder than doing the same for the other Wonder Guards in A-. Probably good enough to not drop a full letter rank, though.
4th in A- --> B+
Much like Mega Manectric, Ground weakness screws WG Gengar hard. Ghost- and Dark- (Shadow Sneak and Pursuit) weaknesses are also problematic. Still fairly annoying, though, and can get Toxic Spikes up with relative ease.
B --> B+
Amazing on Dual MMX team structures, though it struggles to fit anywhere else. You can run Huge Power MMX + WG MMX + Magic Bounce user + support Wonder Guard without having to worry about fitting a second non-offensive Wonder Guard user, which means more often than not you're going to be running WG MMX on this kind of team. Honestly might be better than everything in B+ but I don't know if WG MMX compares to the Pokemon ranked in A-.
B+ --> B
The only things this does over Deoxys-Attack are outspeeding Choice Scarf Primal Groudon and 230 Speed Shell Smashers at +2. This technically does make it better than Deoxys-A at running 0-attack SubPass sets, but those don't seem great anyway because you're running Spore/Dark Void (dies to Magic Bounce) or Glare/Taunt/hazards (also dies to Magic Bounce). I don't think this compares to other Wonder Guards ranked at B+.
B --> B-
Echo of Skuntank that doesn't actually do anything over it. I guess it lives a Thousand Arrows from Jolly Primal Groudon or something but that doesn't seem useful enough to rank this thing in B rank.
C --> C+
Underrated Wonder Guard pick that's seen actual use. Bug and Fairy are pretty bad weaknesses in a vacuum, but with Hoopa-U's offensive stats, anything is possible. Offensive sets aren't top tier but they are scarier than people seem to think. Weird Pursuit sets can also work - there was someone spamming Pursuit Trick-or-treat WG Hoopa-U and it seemed to do alright.
C+ --> C
These three are usable but outclassed by Wonder Guards in higher ranks (Mega Gengar, Mega Scizor, Cresselia) and have only relatively minor upsides over these. Mismagius isn't weak to Fissure but has a much less impressive Speed tier, Skarmory's immune to Spikes and only 2x weak to Fire but is also weak to Electric, and Wobbuffet has higher HP and lower Speed but worse overall bulk. These are really hard to justify using and should be moved down.
C --> C-, 
C --> UR
Gengar's super telegraphed without Illusion and is just a Wonder Guard that threatens perishtrapping instead of actually effectively doing so in the majority of instances. Hoopa's just plain garbage because it dies to Pursuit users and its only arguable advantages over Cresselia/Deoxys-A/MMY is having a slow (disadvantage but this may have some theoretical uses) strong Ghost Judgment (not worth it).
REGULAR VR:
2nd in S- --> 1st in A+Not much has changed for Gyarados (though if anything it'd actually be better than before). I just feel that it's closer to the likes of Mega Rayquaza/Primal Groudon/Imposter than it is to MMX's viability, and a drop to the top of A+ would be appropriate.
3rd in A+ --> 2nd in A+, 2nd in A+ --> 3rd in A+This is probably actually better than Primal Groudon at this point - Oblivion Wing sets are broken, physical sets are fairly scary with a relative absence of STAG MMX/Slaking/Regigigas, and it can run alright Gale Wings and Aerilate sets (though they're admittedly worse). Primal Groudon really only has Mold Breaker and Shadow Tag as mainstream sets, with stuff like Huge Power/Magic Bounce/No Guard/Illusion etc. being relegated to niche status. Since Gyarados would drop Rayquaza would rise to 2nd in A+, while Primal Groudon would drop to 3rd in A+ rank.
1st in A+ --> 4th in A+Chansey hasn't gotten worse (on the contrary, it's actually become better), it's just been higher than it should have been all this time. Utility is formidable when you can complement it with adequate offense/defensive checks but a large portion of teams are unable to effectively fit Imposter in (i.e. have glaring weaknesses vs. Imposter-proofed offensive Pokemon or seriously lacking in offensive power).
4th in A --> 1st in AMuch easier to fit than Slaking and Regigigas. Boomburst sets, especially those with Lum Berry or Leftovers, deal with Oblivion Wing Rayquaza decently well even behind a Substitute (though not really in longer games), and Pursuit sets can annoy opposing Dark-weak offensive Pokemon. Mold Breaker sets are rarer but still quite scary if competently played with - mono Fairy Judgment misses out on Primal Groudon at +2 but leaves you with 3 supporting moves, Steam Eruption + Fairy STAB is still pretty good, and mixed Precipice Blades is unwallable. Imposter-proofing is also trivial with Giratina on almost every team. Slaking and Regigigas would stay where they are due to the below nom.
1st in A --> 4th in AHave you tried building with No Guard recently? Me neither. Way too hard to fit, many Huge Power/Protean users are pseudo No Guard users anyway in that they force switches into Wonder Guard, and without Choice Scarf Deoxys-S or something you miss out on a sizable portion of boosted Shell Smash users. Still "broken" in the traditional sense though, and you aren't running Huge Power Deoxys-S or Mega Aerodactyl anytime soon (though I might try building with them every once in a while), both of which prevent it from moving further down.
5th in A --> 2nd in A-/B+Dark Void- and item-reliant frail shit that fits on a small minority of consistent teams. The argument to keep it way up in A boils down to it being scary, which is true, and able to sweep with little trouble, which is occasionally true. However, so can pretty much any offensive Pokemon you'd consider viably using. Bulk being terrible wouldn't matter as much in a different metagame, but being Pursuit-weak/dropping to any non-Normal-type FakeSpeed after a Shell Smash means all revenging options need to be gone/functionally useless before Gengar actually does anything. This also means that it has to rely on Dark Void because Spore misses out on Safety Goggles Giratina and Taunt misses out on Gyarados. Dark Void is broken so this actually isn't much of an issue in principle but 80% accuracy's screwed it over more times than I can count. Gengar also has weird STAG/Arena Trap/Prankster sets but they're very situational and can't be called consistent in good faith. Dropping it to B+ feels appropriate, but it can probably go hard in hypothetical tour games (PH is a mu fest already though so this probably isn't happening) so just below Latios also works.
B- --> BI was originally going to nom stone Gyarados down but it's not actually that bad so I'm doing this instead. Leftovers Beat Up sets check Oblivion Wing Rayquaza quite a bit harder than Mega Diancie does, and aside from Primal Groudon it's actually not that much worse at revenging stuff. Mold Breaker sets are niche but workable as well.
C+ --> B-Not as bad as people think - Shed Shell is much easier to run on Refrigerate Kyurem-B than Abomasnow due to havaing 170 Attack to work with. This also means Pursuit also KOes unboosted Mega Gengar/MMY after minimal chip. It's also the best Belly Drum Mold Breaker user, with Icicle Plate Ice Shard OHKOing Giratina and not much living a +6 Extreme Speed.
C+ --> B-If you disagree you haven't lost to it yet. Giratina might cancerpass more effectively overall but -ate and Normal-type FakeSpeed resistances go hard.
C- --> CBounce Kyogre sucks but it (and Prankster/Mold Breaker/Huge Power etc.) doesn't suck hard enough to be ranked at C-. Similarly, all of Yveltal's sets are mediocre but it can still soft check threats like Mega Latios/Mega Gengar/MMY, giving it more of a reason to be run than its contemporaries in C- rank. Both should rise to C, though they realistically won't rise above that unless the metagame changes significantly in their favor (not happening).
C --> C-Mixed Mold Breaker sets are fine-ish but you aren't really running this over anything else for a genuine reason.
C- --> URWorse than in Gen 7 due to Wonder Guard Imposter-proofing, Pursuit, extremely common strong priority, increased Plate usage etc. And you aren't realistically using this over something like Lucky Punch Chansey. Off to UR it goes.
WONDER GUARD VR:
4th in S --> 3rd in S, 3rd in S --> 2nd in A+I don't like Blissey personally but it's an actual switch-in to most special Mold Breaker users, something that can't really be said for Slaking even against physically offensive Pokemon. In a vacuum Slaking's probably on par with Mega Audino but because it has competition in Blissey I'll be nomming it below.
1st in A+ --> 5th/6th in A+Fast Gastro Acid is nice and honestly underrated, but Arceus has been ranked way too high for too long. Has too many competitors, both by typing (Blissey, Slaking, even stuff like Ditto) and Speed (Deoxys-Attack, Mega Beedrill, Mega Manectric). Whether it's 5th or 6th in A+ depends on if Deoxys-Attack and MMY are ranked separately or if they're treated only as echoes of each other.
5th in A+ --> 2nd in AQuite a bit worse than Deoxys-A at SubPassing because of Mega Beedrill's existence (so if it's ranked separately then it would be ranked purely for offensive/weird support sets). Spooky Plate Judgment hits hard and Modest Life Orb Grass Knot actually OHKOes Mega Gyarados unboosted, something that quite literally nothing else can boast of - therefore, MMY can run Wonder Guard 4-attack sets fairly effectively. Support sets do exist but I'm not a fan of them. Worse than Scizor but probably not as bad as Mega Manectric so I'm nomming to 2nd in A.
1st in A --> 3rd in A/1st in A-Overrated and tough to actually justify using. Fissure weakness is often shrugged off because "FiSsUrE dOeSn'T eXiSt" but it does, especially on ladder, and Thousand Arrows is arguably just as bad if not worse of a weakness to have.
1st in A- --> 4th in A-I like this thing but Scizor exists and justifying running this over it is harder than doing the same for the other Wonder Guards in A-. Probably good enough to not drop a full letter rank, though.
4th in A- --> B+Much like Mega Manectric, Ground weakness screws WG Gengar hard. Ghost- and Dark- (Shadow Sneak and Pursuit) weaknesses are also problematic. Still fairly annoying, though, and can get Toxic Spikes up with relative ease.
B --> B+Amazing on Dual MMX team structures, though it struggles to fit anywhere else. You can run Huge Power MMX + WG MMX + Magic Bounce user + support Wonder Guard without having to worry about fitting a second non-offensive Wonder Guard user, which means more often than not you're going to be running WG MMX on this kind of team. Honestly might be better than everything in B+ but I don't know if WG MMX compares to the Pokemon ranked in A-.
B+ --> BThe only things this does over Deoxys-Attack are outspeeding Choice Scarf Primal Groudon and 230 Speed Shell Smashers at +2. This technically does make it better than Deoxys-A at running 0-attack SubPass sets, but those don't seem great anyway because you're running Spore/Dark Void (dies to Magic Bounce) or Glare/Taunt/hazards (also dies to Magic Bounce). I don't think this compares to other Wonder Guards ranked at B+.
B --> B-Echo of Skuntank that doesn't actually do anything over it. I guess it lives a Thousand Arrows from Jolly Primal Groudon or something but that doesn't seem useful enough to rank this thing in B rank.
C --> C+Underrated Wonder Guard pick that's seen actual use. Bug and Fairy are pretty bad weaknesses in a vacuum, but with Hoopa-U's offensive stats, anything is possible. Offensive sets aren't top tier but they are scarier than people seem to think. Weird Pursuit sets can also work - there was someone spamming Pursuit Trick-or-treat WG Hoopa-U and it seemed to do alright.
C+ --> CThese three are usable but outclassed by Wonder Guards in higher ranks (Mega Gengar, Mega Scizor, Cresselia) and have only relatively minor upsides over these. Mismagius isn't weak to Fissure but has a much less impressive Speed tier, Skarmory's immune to Spikes and only 2x weak to Fire but is also weak to Electric, and Wobbuffet has higher HP and lower Speed but worse overall bulk. These are really hard to justify using and should be moved down.
C --> C-, C --> URGengar's super telegraphed without Illusion and is just a Wonder Guard that threatens perishtrapping instead of actually effectively doing so in the majority of instances. Hoopa's just plain garbage because it dies to Pursuit users and its only arguable advantages over Cresselia/Deoxys-A/MMY is having a slow (disadvantage but this may have some theoretical uses) strong Ghost Judgment (not worth it).
Last edited:
My thoughts on regular VR, I will try to do the WG VR this weeknend, but I don't know if my body wants to.
Don't expect the wording to be good, but the takes are ok, I guess.
2nd in S- --> 1st in A+
Mega Gyarados is not any worse, but I do think that it's position in the metagame is much closer to Groudon's, Rayquaza's or Chansey's than to Giratina's. I never agreed wiith Gyarados being S- because even if it's an incredibly threatening revenge killer it's never felt like so to me.
1st in S- --> 4th/5th in A+
MMX... MMX... let's be honest. half the reason this thing is in S is how good was it in the past, when in reality is worse than everything in A+, MMX's biggest problem is that it cannot cover every WG, of course, that doesn't mean it's bad, and team support exists. But the problem it has it that it's hard to fit in non dual MMXs teams, which have their own problems.
STAG sets however, are curious, instead of trying to trap Wonder Guards, which more often than not run Shed Shell Shadow Tag/Arena Trap MMX focuses on trapping threats to a team's defensve core such as Primal Groudon, Mega Gyarados, Mega Beedrill and @Gyaradosite, while having the opton to use Trick, Even if it's easier to fit compare to Huge Power sets, it's still not as consistent as an S Rank Pokemon should be.
MMX is still a huge threat, but I don't it's as consistent, easy to fit or good as the other Pokemon in A+, therefore, it should drop.
Swap places
Rayquaza has proven to be a much more threatening Mold Breaker user than Primal-Groudon. Rayquaza can run a wide variety of sets, from Band/Specs to Quiver Dance/Shell Smash. This by itself makes Rayquaza more dangerous, because answers differ from set to set. Mega Diancie answers setup sets, but gets blown by choiced sets, Chatter Blissey can do something against special sets but dies to every set running a physical move and so on. And even if you know what set is Rayquaza running, it's still going to be a huge threat that could easily end the game. Not only that, but its best check, Diancie, has trouble with Mega Rayquaza + Shadow Tag Groudon cores, or just trouble with checking it in longer games. One could make the argument that physical sets suffer against Slak/Gigas but they can easily run Shed Shell and Slak/Gigas aren't being used much now.
4th in A --> 1st in A
Mega Diancie is the best ate user in the metagame, not only does it work in many team structres, but it also checks Mega Rayquaza with Boomburst + Substitute, even if it fails to do so in longer games, Leftovers (Or even Recover) help a lot with longevity issues. Sets like Taunt + Toxic Spikes can run through teams in which both Wonder Guards have 4 status moves, which are more popular than they should be.
On the other hand, Mold Breaker Diancie is incredibly scary and can rip through teams, Judgment + Thousand Arrows/Precipes Blades is an incredible coverage and can easily be improofed by the omnipresent Giratina.
1st in A --> 2nd/4th? in A
No Guard is weird, it dropped to 2nd because I rose Diancie, but I would have no problem on placing it below Slak/Gigas. No Guard is really limited and predictable because whener you see a Deoxys Speed or a Mega Lopunny you will probably think it's a No Guard user.
-OHKO Move
-Grasswhistle/Sing
-Gastro Acid/Entrainment (16 vs 24 PP)
-Filler, usually Stealth Rock or Trick if using Choice Scarf
What about coverage No Guards¡? Offensive NGs are Huge Powers that can OHKO every Pokémon, but have more trouble with WG because:
1) They don't have a power boosting abiility like Huge Power or Protean
2) Only have 3 moves that can realistically hit WG.
5th in A --> 1st/2nd in A-
Insert Mbouchon rant here
Gengar is a Pokemon that if you prepare for it's not gonna do much, but if don't it's gonna be a pain, however, that can be said about many Pokemon such as Mega Beedrill, Mega Rayquaza and LVL 2 Mega Sableye.
Gengar has MANY, MANY issues, it has to use Dark Void and Spooky Plate (Trick go brr), which is unrealiable, which is bad when taking into account how frail it is. It's forced by every revenge killer that doesn't use Extreme Speed, and even then has to be scared of potential Shadow Sneaks/Water Shurikens from Slak/Gigas. The pursuit weakness doesn't help and all, and I don't know if this is just me, but it easily gets worn down.
The only thing this has over every other Mold Breaker user is the fact that it's STAG immune, which I guess is really cool for Arena Trap sets, but that doesn't justify it not dropping.
B+ --> B
Mega Abomasnow has fallen in usage, mostly because Groudon has dropped and Rayquaza has risen, which is really bad for Abomasnow because now it doesn't wanna switch into the best Mold Breaker and there's a Pokemon doing the same that it did in the past. Its Groudon checking capabilities aren't that good because Stealth Rock wears it down hard, specially if it runs Icicle Plate or Shed Shell, which it wants to because otherwise it dies to every other Shadow Tag user.
B --> B+
Arceus has to be one of the most interesting Mold Breakers, even if it has a bad special attack, it's covered by having access to STAB Boomburst, being immune to Trick when holding a plate (Which you're going to), being faster than Mega Rayquaza and being bulky enough to actually take a hit or two. While it may have problems with Giratina and Blissey, the former doesn't enjoy Ghost Judgment or Dark Void, while the latter is either 2HKOd by +2 Boomburst after minor damage (Which sleep helps to achieve) or Taunted/Secret Sworded.
C+ --> B-
METAGROSS JUMPSCARE
*Dark voids, coils and subpasses* *Finds your ip and invades your home*
C+/C --> C-/UR
I talked about NToTheN about why was Aegislash ranked and the told me that it's the 2nd best Magic Bounce user in Dual MMX teams. So, this Pokemon is the 2ND BEST at doing a role IN A SPECIFIC TEAM STRUCTURE THAT DOESN'T EVEN ALWAYS USE THAT ROLE AND IT'S WORSE THAN IT USED TO BE.
Sceptile is just bad. It has a mid Mold Breaker set and a mid/bad Shadow Tag set.
Garchomp kind of exists but just use Groudon.
C- -->C
Magic Bounce Primal Kyogre, while it's not the best thing out there, is much better than everything in C-.
Yveltal is something I could see in something as high as C+, it's an incredible Poison Heal/Magic Guard user,
being able to take hits such as +2 Thousand Arrows from Groudon or literally anything from Mega Gengar to OHKO back with Foul Play. Magic Bounce is an option, but Magic Guard/Poison Heal are much better options in general, even if the Shadow Tag weakness hurts.
Registeel is just a bulky Magic Bounce user that walls Beedrill and every -ate/Gale Wings user.
C- --> UR
This thing only works in paraspam and still bad, its HP is bad, there's no 50/50 chance to guess if it has a Choice Scarf, you know from the start it's not, and most teams are improofed anyway.
UR --> C-?
This thing is bad, I know, but it's just a Registeel that sacrifices bulk for being a counter to Rayquaza, which is why I wanted to add this on first place.
However, this made me think of the time where Pokemon such as Swadloon, Leavanny, Tangrowth and Chesnaught were ranked because they beat Primal Groudon, if you don't see them in the VR right now is
because they provided nothing other than being a check to an specific Pokemon.
I think that's everything I had to say about the VR
Don't expect the wording to be good, but the takes are ok, I guess.
2nd in S- --> 1st in A+Mega Gyarados is not any worse, but I do think that it's position in the metagame is much closer to Groudon's, Rayquaza's or Chansey's than to Giratina's. I never agreed wiith Gyarados being S- because even if it's an incredibly threatening revenge killer it's never felt like so to me.
1st in S- --> 4th/5th in A+ MMX... MMX... let's be honest. half the reason this thing is in S is how good was it in the past, when in reality is worse than everything in A+, MMX's biggest problem is that it cannot cover every WG, of course, that doesn't mean it's bad, and team support exists. But the problem it has it that it's hard to fit in non dual MMXs teams, which have their own problems.
STAG sets however, are curious, instead of trying to trap Wonder Guards, which more often than not run Shed Shell Shadow Tag/Arena Trap MMX focuses on trapping threats to a team's defensve core such as Primal Groudon, Mega Gyarados, Mega Beedrill and @Gyaradosite, while having the opton to use Trick, Even if it's easier to fit compare to Huge Power sets, it's still not as consistent as an S Rank Pokemon should be.
MMX is still a huge threat, but I don't it's as consistent, easy to fit or good as the other Pokemon in A+, therefore, it should drop.
Swap placesRayquaza has proven to be a much more threatening Mold Breaker user than Primal-Groudon. Rayquaza can run a wide variety of sets, from Band/Specs to Quiver Dance/Shell Smash. This by itself makes Rayquaza more dangerous, because answers differ from set to set. Mega Diancie answers setup sets, but gets blown by choiced sets, Chatter Blissey can do something against special sets but dies to every set running a physical move and so on. And even if you know what set is Rayquaza running, it's still going to be a huge threat that could easily end the game. Not only that, but its best check, Diancie, has trouble with Mega Rayquaza + Shadow Tag Groudon cores, or just trouble with checking it in longer games. One could make the argument that physical sets suffer against Slak/Gigas but they can easily run Shed Shell and Slak/Gigas aren't being used much now.
4th in A --> 1st in AMega Diancie is the best ate user in the metagame, not only does it work in many team structres, but it also checks Mega Rayquaza with Boomburst + Substitute, even if it fails to do so in longer games, Leftovers (Or even Recover) help a lot with longevity issues. Sets like Taunt + Toxic Spikes can run through teams in which both Wonder Guards have 4 status moves, which are more popular than they should be.
On the other hand, Mold Breaker Diancie is incredibly scary and can rip through teams, Judgment + Thousand Arrows/Precipes Blades is an incredible coverage and can easily be improofed by the omnipresent Giratina.
1st in A --> 2nd/4th? in ANo Guard is weird, it dropped to 2nd because I rose Diancie, but I would have no problem on placing it below Slak/Gigas. No Guard is really limited and predictable because whener you see a Deoxys Speed or a Mega Lopunny you will probably think it's a No Guard user.
-OHKO Move
-Grasswhistle/Sing
-Gastro Acid/Entrainment (16 vs 24 PP)
-Filler, usually Stealth Rock or Trick if using Choice Scarf
What about coverage No Guards¡? Offensive NGs are Huge Powers that can OHKO every Pokémon, but have more trouble with WG because:
1) They don't have a power boosting abiility like Huge Power or Protean
2) Only have 3 moves that can realistically hit WG.
5th in A --> 1st/2nd in A-Insert Mbouchon rant here
Gengar is a Pokemon that if you prepare for it's not gonna do much, but if don't it's gonna be a pain, however, that can be said about many Pokemon such as Mega Beedrill, Mega Rayquaza and LVL 2 Mega Sableye.
Gengar has MANY, MANY issues, it has to use Dark Void and Spooky Plate (Trick go brr), which is unrealiable, which is bad when taking into account how frail it is. It's forced by every revenge killer that doesn't use Extreme Speed, and even then has to be scared of potential Shadow Sneaks/Water Shurikens from Slak/Gigas. The pursuit weakness doesn't help and all, and I don't know if this is just me, but it easily gets worn down.
The only thing this has over every other Mold Breaker user is the fact that it's STAG immune, which I guess is really cool for Arena Trap sets, but that doesn't justify it not dropping.
B+ --> BMega Abomasnow has fallen in usage, mostly because Groudon has dropped and Rayquaza has risen, which is really bad for Abomasnow because now it doesn't wanna switch into the best Mold Breaker and there's a Pokemon doing the same that it did in the past. Its Groudon checking capabilities aren't that good because Stealth Rock wears it down hard, specially if it runs Icicle Plate or Shed Shell, which it wants to because otherwise it dies to every other Shadow Tag user.
B --> B+Arceus has to be one of the most interesting Mold Breakers, even if it has a bad special attack, it's covered by having access to STAB Boomburst, being immune to Trick when holding a plate (Which you're going to), being faster than Mega Rayquaza and being bulky enough to actually take a hit or two. While it may have problems with Giratina and Blissey, the former doesn't enjoy Ghost Judgment or Dark Void, while the latter is either 2HKOd by +2 Boomburst after minor damage (Which sleep helps to achieve) or Taunted/Secret Sworded.
C+ --> B-METAGROSS JUMPSCARE
*Dark voids, coils and subpasses* *Finds your ip and invades your home*
C+/C --> C-/URI talked about NToTheN about why was Aegislash ranked and the told me that it's the 2nd best Magic Bounce user in Dual MMX teams. So, this Pokemon is the 2ND BEST at doing a role IN A SPECIFIC TEAM STRUCTURE THAT DOESN'T EVEN ALWAYS USE THAT ROLE AND IT'S WORSE THAN IT USED TO BE.
Sceptile is just bad. It has a mid Mold Breaker set and a mid/bad Shadow Tag set.
Garchomp kind of exists but just use Groudon.
C- -->CMagic Bounce Primal Kyogre, while it's not the best thing out there, is much better than everything in C-.
Yveltal is something I could see in something as high as C+, it's an incredible Poison Heal/Magic Guard user,
being able to take hits such as +2 Thousand Arrows from Groudon or literally anything from Mega Gengar to OHKO back with Foul Play. Magic Bounce is an option, but Magic Guard/Poison Heal are much better options in general, even if the Shadow Tag weakness hurts.
Registeel is just a bulky Magic Bounce user that walls Beedrill and every -ate/Gale Wings user.
C- --> UR This thing only works in paraspam and still bad, its HP is bad, there's no 50/50 chance to guess if it has a Choice Scarf, you know from the start it's not, and most teams are improofed anyway.
UR --> C-?This thing is bad, I know, but it's just a Registeel that sacrifices bulk for being a counter to Rayquaza, which is why I wanted to add this on first place.
However, this made me think of the time where Pokemon such as Swadloon, Leavanny, Tangrowth and Chesnaught were ranked because they beat Primal Groudon, if you don't see them in the VR right now is
because they provided nothing other than being a check to an specific Pokemon.
I think that's everything I had to say about the VR
This how would the VR look like if these are the changes that are made
Attachments
Last edited:
I feel like I need to address this whole Gengar thing. Recently people have had the notion that Mega Gengar is getting worse, or should move down in the VR, which I simply don't think is the case.
Common Arguments Against Mega Gengar:
- Reliance on Dark Void makes Gengar unreliable difficult to use
Primal Groudon relies on Dark Void. Mega Rayquaza relies on Dark Void. In the current meta, Dark Void is run specifically for Safety Goggles Giratina, which Gengar threatens very well. In fact, this makes it less reliant on Dark Void than the two best Mold Breaker users in the tier. Mega Gengar can run Spore more easily than any other Mold Breaker user in the tier thanks to how hugely threatening it is to the most common--and in many cases only--Safety Goggles user.
- Its frailty makes it easy to revenge kill
This is true, Mega Gengar is easy to revenge kill. However, there are a few recent trends that make the meta more suited in Gengar's favor:
Mega Gyarados is not as common as it used to be. This is huge, as it is the Pokemon that holds back Mega Gengar the most, even if its a misconception that Mega Gyarados always revenge kills Mega Gengar (two Water Shuriken hits it a 3/8 chance on top of the 50/50 you need to get right between picking that move and Pursuit).
-Ate Speed users have been reduced to basically only Diancie, and it runs Pursuit a lot less now. Mega Rayquaza's heavy presence almost always forces Diancie to have Boomburst, leaving three of its moveslots effectively locked. The fourth option can be used for Stealth Rock, Toxic Spikes, Taunt, Spore, Pursuit, or even a coverage move (although that's a rarer pick nowadays). The general trend seems to be that entry hazards and Spore are typically preferred over Pursuit, which is obviously good for Mega Gengar.
Choice Scarf Shadow Tag users are becoming an increasingly common way of revenge killing opposing sweepers. Mega Gengar benefits from this, because it can escape Shadow Tag
(I don't know where else to put this so I'm going to put it here)
Gengar also doesn't need to use Shell Smash to be threatening. It can come in and just click moves if it wants. Kyogre usage is down, and Gengar shreds Blissey + Giratina teams so if it wants it can just click buttons against a lot of them.
- Mega Gengar is item-reliant, therefore __________
tbh I haven't head any real arguments and why item reliance for this Pokemon is bad, it's just expected that you fill in the blanks yourself. I'll go ahead and address what I think might go in that blank.
"Reliance on item means that Trick screws you over." True, but there aren't many Mold Breaker users that function well when being Tricked a Choice Scarf. Primal Groudon gets destroyed, and so does Mega Rayquaza. So do Xerneas, Dialga, and Zekrom. In fact, Mega Gengar actually avoids being Tricked more often because of its Shadow Tag immunity, which is how most Mold Breaker Pokemon lose their item in the first place.
"Reliance on item means that it can't use another item that might help it in some cases." I don't think anyone actually thinks this so I'll be brief. Spooky Plate is by far the best item on Mega Gengar and outclasses every other choice, unless you run some wack Choice Scarf + Trick stuff. It doesn't need or want any other item, it's not like Mega Rayquaza who want both Sky Plate and Shed Shell or something.
"Reliance on item means that the opponent will have more information on how to deal with Mega Gengar." Mega Gengar is a threatening and potent sweeper and breaker regardless of whether your opponent knows what's about to happen or not. Additionally, there can be variation in the movepool for Mega Gengar, but only really Secret Sword and Sludge Wave. This is however, enough to make neither Blissey nor Mega Audino consistent checks.
- If you prepare for Mega Gengar, it rarely does anything
This is blatantly untrue. You can only be 100% safe against Mega Gengar if you either run some weird shit like Choice Scarf Mega Absol or if you run things that are easily exploited by Mega Gengar's teammates. For example, Blissey + Mega Audino is a very consistent core to check Mega Gengar, but is shredded by Huge Power or Protean users packing the coverage to easily knock them both out. Mega Gyarados is also somewhat consistent, but is removed by Shadow Tag Mega Mewtwo X. Even if you ignore all of this, sleep still does wonders because of how broken it is :P
This is cool and all, but I have more. There are some recent metagame trends that I think make Mega Gengar actually better than it was before all this discussion started happening.
Why Gengar is getting better, actually
- Imposter has gotten better, and its usage has gone up
One of the biggest appeals of Mega Gengar is that it Imposter-proofs itself effortlessly, meaning it never has to worry about countersweeps from Chansey, letting it force progress againt Imposter teams much more effectively. With the rising usage of Imposter Chansey recently, this means that the enviornement is only getting more suited for it to do well
- It shreds Blissey + Giratina teams
Pretty easy to see why. Secret Sword OHKOes Blissey, and Spooky Plate Judgment smacks Giratina. Nothing else even comes close to ripping apart this core like Mega Gengar does, and its a valuable trait to have. Blissey + Giratina is one of the most effective and common cores at the moment.
- Mega Gyarados is getting worse / not as common
Mega Gyarados is still great, don't get me wrong. But with less Primal Groudon going around, and a lot more Giratina running Destiny Bond than ever, it's certainly lost some shine, in addition to just seeing less usage. This is better for Gengar, obviously
So yeah Mega Gengar is still good, I don't know what people are doing trying to lower it on the VR. In a world where Mega Gyarados is getting used less / worse, Imposter Chansey is better, and Bliss + Giratina is common, I don't understand how Mega Gengar is worse. Especially when a lot of the criticisms levied at it are either minor, nonexistent, or untrue.
Common Arguments Against Mega Gengar:
- Reliance on Dark Void makes Gengar unreliable difficult to use
Primal Groudon relies on Dark Void. Mega Rayquaza relies on Dark Void. In the current meta, Dark Void is run specifically for Safety Goggles Giratina, which Gengar threatens very well. In fact, this makes it less reliant on Dark Void than the two best Mold Breaker users in the tier. Mega Gengar can run Spore more easily than any other Mold Breaker user in the tier thanks to how hugely threatening it is to the most common--and in many cases only--Safety Goggles user.
- Its frailty makes it easy to revenge kill
This is true, Mega Gengar is easy to revenge kill. However, there are a few recent trends that make the meta more suited in Gengar's favor:
Mega Gyarados is not as common as it used to be. This is huge, as it is the Pokemon that holds back Mega Gengar the most, even if its a misconception that Mega Gyarados always revenge kills Mega Gengar (two Water Shuriken hits it a 3/8 chance on top of the 50/50 you need to get right between picking that move and Pursuit).
-Ate Speed users have been reduced to basically only Diancie, and it runs Pursuit a lot less now. Mega Rayquaza's heavy presence almost always forces Diancie to have Boomburst, leaving three of its moveslots effectively locked. The fourth option can be used for Stealth Rock, Toxic Spikes, Taunt, Spore, Pursuit, or even a coverage move (although that's a rarer pick nowadays). The general trend seems to be that entry hazards and Spore are typically preferred over Pursuit, which is obviously good for Mega Gengar.
Choice Scarf Shadow Tag users are becoming an increasingly common way of revenge killing opposing sweepers. Mega Gengar benefits from this, because it can escape Shadow Tag
(I don't know where else to put this so I'm going to put it here)
Gengar also doesn't need to use Shell Smash to be threatening. It can come in and just click moves if it wants. Kyogre usage is down, and Gengar shreds Blissey + Giratina teams so if it wants it can just click buttons against a lot of them.
- Mega Gengar is item-reliant, therefore __________
tbh I haven't head any real arguments and why item reliance for this Pokemon is bad, it's just expected that you fill in the blanks yourself. I'll go ahead and address what I think might go in that blank.
"Reliance on item means that Trick screws you over." True, but there aren't many Mold Breaker users that function well when being Tricked a Choice Scarf. Primal Groudon gets destroyed, and so does Mega Rayquaza. So do Xerneas, Dialga, and Zekrom. In fact, Mega Gengar actually avoids being Tricked more often because of its Shadow Tag immunity, which is how most Mold Breaker Pokemon lose their item in the first place.
"Reliance on item means that it can't use another item that might help it in some cases." I don't think anyone actually thinks this so I'll be brief. Spooky Plate is by far the best item on Mega Gengar and outclasses every other choice, unless you run some wack Choice Scarf + Trick stuff. It doesn't need or want any other item, it's not like Mega Rayquaza who want both Sky Plate and Shed Shell or something.
"Reliance on item means that the opponent will have more information on how to deal with Mega Gengar." Mega Gengar is a threatening and potent sweeper and breaker regardless of whether your opponent knows what's about to happen or not. Additionally, there can be variation in the movepool for Mega Gengar, but only really Secret Sword and Sludge Wave. This is however, enough to make neither Blissey nor Mega Audino consistent checks.
- If you prepare for Mega Gengar, it rarely does anything
This is blatantly untrue. You can only be 100% safe against Mega Gengar if you either run some weird shit like Choice Scarf Mega Absol or if you run things that are easily exploited by Mega Gengar's teammates. For example, Blissey + Mega Audino is a very consistent core to check Mega Gengar, but is shredded by Huge Power or Protean users packing the coverage to easily knock them both out. Mega Gyarados is also somewhat consistent, but is removed by Shadow Tag Mega Mewtwo X. Even if you ignore all of this, sleep still does wonders because of how broken it is :P
This is cool and all, but I have more. There are some recent metagame trends that I think make Mega Gengar actually better than it was before all this discussion started happening.
Why Gengar is getting better, actually
- Imposter has gotten better, and its usage has gone up
One of the biggest appeals of Mega Gengar is that it Imposter-proofs itself effortlessly, meaning it never has to worry about countersweeps from Chansey, letting it force progress againt Imposter teams much more effectively. With the rising usage of Imposter Chansey recently, this means that the enviornement is only getting more suited for it to do well
- It shreds Blissey + Giratina teams
Pretty easy to see why. Secret Sword OHKOes Blissey, and Spooky Plate Judgment smacks Giratina. Nothing else even comes close to ripping apart this core like Mega Gengar does, and its a valuable trait to have. Blissey + Giratina is one of the most effective and common cores at the moment.
- Mega Gyarados is getting worse / not as common
Mega Gyarados is still great, don't get me wrong. But with less Primal Groudon going around, and a lot more Giratina running Destiny Bond than ever, it's certainly lost some shine, in addition to just seeing less usage. This is better for Gengar, obviously
So yeah Mega Gengar is still good, I don't know what people are doing trying to lower it on the VR. In a world where Mega Gyarados is getting used less / worse, Imposter Chansey is better, and Bliss + Giratina is common, I don't understand how Mega Gengar is worse. Especially when a lot of the criticisms levied at it are either minor, nonexistent, or untrue.