Resource National Dex Doubles Viability Rankings

[Smudge]

paragraph and art stolen and adapted from the dou vr thread. art credit: Fangame10

Welcome to the National Dex Doubles OU Viability Ranking project, where we rank the viability of Pokemon in DOU. The floor will always be open to discussion, and after a period of time (roughly every few months), the viability rankings council will vote on any of the Pokemon being discussed and post the results and (sometimes) reasoning here. A Pokemon moving from UR to Ranked must receive both a majority and at least 3 votes of "yes" in order to be Ranked. The rankings and tier descriptions have been assigned to describe each Pokemon's state within the metagame, and the Pokemon in each tier are listed in alphabetical order.

When making a nomination for a shift in the VR, many things can improve the quality of your post and thus the likelihood of it convincing the VR council. Calcs, reasons why the current metagame is different for the Pokemon, replays, and discussion on how the Pokemon interacts with other relevant Pokemon are all potentially solid inclusions. Additionally, you may want to discuss usage stats as part of your argument, but don't base your entire argument on the usage of a Pokemon - usage and viability are not the same thing. For examples of solid nominations, check out this post (and the one below it).

~ VR Council ~
These users have the ultimate say on shifts in Viability Rankings tiers. The council consists of experienced players who have different styles and perspectives to offer to the table when deciding the strength of any individual Pokemon.

Smudge
big pichu
eragon
Nido-Rus
Glimmer
sir jelloton
bagel
Iceberg77
Voltix
Terekusai
Schister

Viability Rankings - Invitationals - Updated 2025-06-04

Tier One

Pokemon that dominate a large portion of the metagame. They are either quite powerful or offer great team support, and can fit on almost any team. You can't really go wrong by using these Pokemon.

Click to collapse...

:Flutter-Mane: Flutter Mane
:Incineroar: Incineroar ↑ 1

Tier Two

Pokemon that are generally strong and can easily be placed on a variety of teams, but don't have the same level of prowess as the threats in Tier 1.

Click to collapse...

:Charizard-Mega-Y: Mega Charizard Y
:Heatran: Heatran
:Kangaskhan-Mega: Kangaskhan-Mega ↑ 1
:Jirachi: Jirachi
:Landorus: Landorus
:Salamence-Mega: Mega Salamence
:Ogerpon-Hearthflame:Ogerpon-Hearthflame ↑ 1
:Ogerpon-Wellspring: Ogerpon-Wellspring ↑ 1
:Raging-Bolt: Raging Bolt
:Rillaboom: Rillaboom
:Tapu-Fini: Tapu Fini


Tier Three

Pokemon that are generally strong, but less powerful than those in Tier 2 or Pokemon that require a decent amount of support or a specific team style to function well, but are defining pieces to said archetypes.

Click to collapse...

:Amoonguss: Amoonguss ↓ 1
:Archaludon: Archaludon
:Basculegion: Basculegion
:Blastoise: Blastoise ↑ 1
:Bronzong: Bronzong NEW!
:Celesteela: Celesteela ↑ 1
:Chien-Pao: Chien-Pao
:Diancie: Diancie
:Dracovish: Dracovish
:Gholdengo: Gholdengo↑ 1
:Glimmora: Glimmora
:Iron Hands: Iron Hands ↓ 1
:Kyurem-Black: Kyurem-Black
:Gardevoir-Mega: Mega Gardevoir
:Landorus-Therian: Landorus-Therian
:Nihilego: Nihilego ↑ 2
:Roaring Moon: Roaring Moon ↑ 2
:Tornadus: Tornadus ↓ 1
:Tyranitar-Mega:Tyranitar-Mega ↑ 1
:Ursaluna:Ursaluna ↑ 1
:Zeraora: Zeraora





Tier Four

This tier contains either Pokemon that have broad applications on a variety of teams, but are simply less effective than those in higher tiers, or are only particularly useful for certain team styles.

Click to collapse...

:Chi-Yu: Chi-Yu ↓ 1
:Diancie-Mega: Diancie-Mega ↑ 1
:dracozolt: Dracozolt
:Entei: Entei
:Ferrothorn: Ferrothorn ↑ 1
:Gouging-Fire: Gouging Fire
:Indeedee-F: Indeedee-F ↓ 1
:Kartana: Kartana
:Kingambit: Kingambit
:Camerupt-Mega: Mega Camerupt
:Scizor-Mega: Mega Scizor
:Mew: Mew
:Ogerpon-Cornerstone: Ogerpon-Cornerstone
:Pelipper: Pelipper
:Politoed: Politoed
:sinistcha: Sinistcha
:Tapu-Lele: Tapu Lele
:Tapu-Koko: Tapu Koko
:Ting-Lu: Ting-Lu
:Tyranitar: Tyranitar ↓ 1
:Volcanion: Volcanion
:volcarona: Volcarona
:xurkitree: Xurkitree
:Ursaluna-Bloodmoon: Ursaluna-Bloodmoon ↓ 1



Tier Five

Pokemon that, while they have a niche in the metagame, often struggle to find situations where they thrive, either because of the support required or their poor matchups.

Click to collapse...

:Camerupt-Mega: Camerupt-Mega ↓ 1
:Cresselia: Cresselia
:Deoxys-Speed: Deoxys-Speed
:Grimmsnarl: Grimmsnarl
:Hoopa-Unbound: Hoopa-Unbound
:Iron-Crown: Iron Crown
:Kingdra: Kingdra
:Aerodactyl-Mega: Mega Aerodactyl
:Porygon2: Porygon2 ↓ 1
:regieleki: Regieleki
:Walking-Wake: Walking Wake
:Whimsicott: Whimsicott
:Zapdos: Zapdos ↓ 1
:Great Tusk: Great Tusk NEW!
:Meloetta: Meloetta NEW!
:Ninetales-Alola: Ninetales-Alola NEW!
:Garganacl: Garganacl NEW!
:Okidogi: Okidogi NEW!

 

[Smudge]

This is by far our biggest update to the Viability rankings yet, and in my opinion, the most accurate to date.

Massive shoutout to Terekusai and tyo for filling in on the latest update, and to Voltix for being a continued presence on our voting. The other voters were eragon, sir jelloton, Glimmer, and myself.

Rises:

:incineroar: Incineroar 2 -> 1

:amoonguss: Amoonguss 4->2
:basculegion: Basculegion 3->2
:iron-hands: Iron Hands 3->2
:charizard-mega-y: Mega Charizard Y 3->2
:stakataka: Stakataka 3->2

:diancie: Diancie 4->3
:dracovish: Dracovish 4->3
:heatran: Heatran 4->3
:landorus-therian: Landorus-Therian 4->3
:gardevoir-mega: Mega Gardevoir 4->3
:pelipper: Pelipper 4->3
:ursaluna-bloodmoon: Ursaluna-Bloodmoon 4->3

:camerupt-mega: Mega Camerupt 5->4
:mew: Mew 5->4
:politoed: Politoed 5->4
:ting-lu: Ting-Lu 5->4
:tsareena: Tsareena 5->4
:ursaluna: Ursaluna 5->4
:zeraora: Zeraora 5->4

Drops:

:rillaboom: Rillaboom 1->2

:kingambit: Kingabmit 2->3
:kangaskhan-mega: Mega Kangaskhan 2->3
:volcanion: Volcanion 2->3

:deoxys-attack: Deoxys-Attack 2->4
:gholdengo: Gholdengo 3->4
:kyurem-black: Kyurem-Black 3->4

:tyranitar-mega: Tyranitar-Mega 3->5
:ogerpon: Ogerpon 4->5
:whimsicott: Whimsicott 4->5

:iron-bundle: Iron Bundle 5->UR
:naganadel: Naganadel 5->UR
:venusaur-mega: Venusaur-Mega 5->UR

New:

:xurkitree: Xurkitree UR->3

:blastoise: Blastoise UR->4
:dracozolt: Dracozolt UR->4
:tyranitar: Tyranitar UR->4
:volcarona: Volcarona UR->4
:zapdos: Zapdos UR->4

:ferrothorn: Ferrothorn UR->5
:aerodactyl-mega: Mega Aerodactyl UR->5
:metagross: Metagross UR->5

 

[Penter]

2->1
Kinda surprised this mon didnt rise earlier. Its still the most splashable setup sweeper in the tier despite being overprepped for at this point. a good number of recent meta trends rose in part because of fini's dominance (xurk, amoong, venusaur lol) and it never really feels deadweight due to its ability. I think people may have gotten too used to bein able to play really braindead with fini that its utility isnt used like it should but i think thats on the player more than fini itself bein bad.

2->3
pao really isnt a fan of intimidate being everywhere and its frailty means it can often struggle to position itself. has really volatile matchups and as teams get bulkier it feels a lot easier to exploit. I can definitely see this turning around again at some point but rn pao can be forced out too easily so that it doesnt actually check the thing that its supposed to. mon kinda wants boots but also sash but also clam.

5->4?
cornerstone seems better than wellspring to me tbh, sun is annoying for wellspring here and i think sun is a big enough threat to warrant running this more. I could be overrating rock cudgel but no way its 2 tiers below wellspring and hearthflame regardless.

->4?
Dont have much to say but I think mawile deserves to be ranked at least its niche but good. 4 or 5 prolly.

4->3
Probably the best this mon as ever been here. incin, amoong, sinis all partner p well with it and hazards are strong. the damage mitigation it provides is so good at throwing off ppls calcs. patches up a lot a matchups with its toolkit (psyspam, trickroom, setup bs, jirachi), mence and kang can both use it and those are like, the top 2 megas.

EDIT: Also is sinistcha meant to be untiered?

 

[Nails]

stak to 1
goth to 1
fini to 1
incin to 2
koko to 2
rilla to 3
marsh to 3
lando-i to 3
mega manectric to 4

:stakataka: broken, banworthy, etc
:gothitelle: broken, banworthy. the format is largely terrain and weather wars, goth is kind of just a near mandatory inclusion on those types of teams since trapping their guy means you get to run all over your opponent with your buffs. it can do other things too but that's the most broken thing it does. gothorita does similar enough things that it's supposed to be a shadow tag ban, not just gothitelle.
:tapu-fini: specs is extremely good at damage trading and it can stablize positions in front of a super diverse cast of threats. non-specs sets are t2-3.
:incineroar: underwhelming, gets trapped by goth and dies. overplayed. good on a small number of teams but it just forces many of the good physical attackers to run clam. basically every choiced mon runs tera ghost. fake out gets value on megas and struggles to find consistency otherwise. will probably be t1 again after goth gets banned.
:tapu-koko: hands and bolt in terrain are illegal. fast enough to save itself from gothitelle with volt switch (and also great at enabling goth plays).
:rillaboom: goth bait. enemy #1 for many comps, so the matchups it's meant to be good in have strong counterplay for it. has the same issue with fake out consistency as incin, doesn't do meaningful damage when clicking non-grass type moves. low bst, even if well distributed, still means it's fighting uphill in a lot of damage trades and without gen 8 glide to carry it rilla struggles.
:marshadow: it's messed up that 125 isn't a good speed tier but like it isn't. def the 2nd best fighting type but a clear tier lower than hands. clam and lo are both good. i feel the weakest about this one out of all of the noms, but it's like tier 2.75.
:landorus: it's always broken people just forgot about it ig?
:manectric-mega: electric spam is broken and getting to sit a lightningrod on the board is cool for a bunch of mons. intimidate volt switch guy is good post mega, especially since zard and mence are the best 2 megas.

thoughts on suspects: ban stag ban stak ban zard then reevaluate. they're all very broken, in that order.

 

[Kin+ak (✧∇✧)]

&

to Tier 4
Regular and Mega gallade play differently but are both worthy of T4 imo.
Regular Gallade gets a superb weapon in Sharpness-boosted sacred sword, and uses its mid speed to set trick room. It's easily one of the most threatening Trick room setters, only really behind Hatterene in the damage output, and has a Neatish Matchup into Archaludon, thanks to sacred sword ignoring stat changes.
Mega Gallade Loses sharpness but gets the Inner Focus Ability. It's also Faster and physically Bulkier. Thesse Buffs give ut a golden Matchup into Mega Kangaskhan, since it annot fake out, it gets outsped and it gts OHKO'd. Mega Gallade owns Incineroar, no fake out no intimidate, and has Movepool against most good tiered pokémon, has shadow sneak for Flutter Mane and Mrshadow, FIghting stab for Chien Pao, Incineroar, Ice Punch for Msala, Ragin bolt, tornadus, Psychic stab for Amoonguss or Marshadow, and can still use some support moves like Wide Guard or Upper Hand. And it can Work on Tailroom by Mega Evolving on Tail or staying Reg on Room. I rlly like it, Drops many Fake out mons, rlly should get ranked.

and... Remove Stak

 

[Kunal]

:incineroar: 1 -> 2

This is an extremely offensive format, with a lot of covert cloak pokemon and a lot of special attackers. Incin/fake out in general have lost a lot of value, and a lot of the good teams can hit Incin pretty hard without sacrificing moveslots or mons from their main cores. Flutter being a Tier 1 mon, Lando-i + Fini + Hands + Tyranitar + Ogerpon-Wellspring all being super relevant pokemon make incin a bit hard to fit. Defenisvely, it is still a great pokemon on many teams but its also competing with heatran and iron hands defensively. One major shift we saw during derby was a huge swing towards special attackers being prioritized, and the physical mons almost all tend to run clear amulet or some sort of attack boosting move (ex. clear amulet kyub, sd iron hands, dd mence), which makes incin a lot harder to auto-add to teams.

:Amoonguss: 2 -> 3

Hard to use this mon as redirection without tera'ing it, which is a big hinderance in a format with such a high power level. Its also weak to mence and zard-y and heatran, and has trouble supporting its partners well enough through their spread attacks. Spore is still nuts.

:Chien-Pao: 2 -> 3

Lot of rocks, lot of strong redirectors. Sash pao doesnt get nearly as much value here as it does in SV DOU. Its cool next to some physical threats like hearthflame or kartana or mence, but mence being really good and incin or lando-t being intimidators on almost all teams means its hard for pao to get unintimidated value into the mons it needs to. Z move is kind of cool, but not super good.

:Jirachi: 2 -> 1

Really uninteractive redirector. Its bulk and general lack of mons that hit it super effectively let it click anything it wants for 8 turns. There isnt currently a setup mon that really breaks the tier next to jirachi redirection, but I still think it deserves to be on most teams and makes almost every team its on better.

:heatran: 3 -> 2

Insane usage spike during derby. One of the only real flutter mane checks in the tier, and generally holds its own versus ground types due to eruption (and sometimes firium z)

:Landorus-therian: 3 -> 2

With incin competing for team slots with mons like heatran and iron hands, Lando has become one of the primary intimidate pokemon. Its very safe and has a large variety of sets (z move, sitrus rocks support, scarf, AV). Can generally mold its set to suit the team its on very well. Also one of two ground type mons worth using (the other being lando-i) in a format where heatran is very dominant.

:Pelipper: 3 -> 4

rain sucks because you have to use either this pokemon or politoed. Zard-y and ttar both farm this archetype right now. There may be a stronger way to build it.

:Tapu-lele: 3 -> 4

Worse than indeedee on almost every iteration of psyspam except specifically deoxys-attack stuff, which tends to be very matchup fishy in the current meta.

:Xurkitree: 3 -> 4

Really scary setup mon when it holds cloak or adrenaline orb. Tera fairy makes +3 gleam kill like 60% of the mons in the tier. One thing that makes it a bit hard to set up right now is the number of mons clicking high base power spread moves. Also, a lot of the flutter hate unintentionally catches xurkitree as well with Tera fairy Gleam being it's primary way of dealing effective damage.

:Kingambit: 3 -> 5

A lot of teams carry double intimidate, but in spite of that it feels very hard to give kingambit the support it needs to actually carry games like it needs to. Many of the good mons are special attackers with strong spread moves, which force defensive tera from this pokemon. In general, if you're not able to offensively tera kingambit it is not very good, and that applies here as well. Also a lot of fairies in this tier.

:Ogerpon-hearthflame: 3 -> 4

Hard to fit onto teams due to its negative matchup into mence and type overlap with heatran/incin/zard. general lack of ability to play around defensive teras on mons its supposed to kill, and higher reliance on tera than other offensive pieces.

:Celesteela: 4 -> 3

Bulky steels are very good at slowing flutter down. Celes happens to also be able to stall very well with leech seed and tera, versus most of the other top threats in the tier.

:Kyurem-black: 4 -> 3

Lando usage going up, as well as stak being banned let this mon be a little more free in the sets it runs. With its base stat total, it is a serious threat on teams that can support it well

:Landorus: 4 -> 2

Not sure why this guy was in 4 to begin with. It is the best ground attacker, and it covers its partners flutter mane and zard-y very well.

:Scizor-mega: 4 -> 3

Again, flutter checks are good. kyub getting better means hail checks are also good. Stak being banned made a lot of other steels viable.

:Tsareena: 4 -> UR

Worthless dogshit mon. was used on rain in the past, now people know how to play.

:Tyranitar: 4 -> 3

Normal ttar is a serious threat in a format where mence and zard-y are the 2 best megas by a long shot. Pairing it with mega mence and dracovish creates a really difficult core to break. Getting to tera this guy to swing matchups is really helpful on teams that rely on it more as a sand setter/neutral damage, and not a setup center piece.

:Zeraora: 4 -> 3

Voltix used this mon extremely well in derby. Its scary, it helps check flutter and is a fast fake out pivot mon. It also hits fini hard. Very flexible mon that can generally add value to teams, or act as a patchwork flutter mane mitigator.

:Ferrothorn: 5 -> 4

Same niche as celesteela but with idbp and worse base typing. Can auto-win games on preview.

:Tyranitar-Mega: 5 -> 3

Same as regular ttar, but better at clicking dragon dance and setting up.

:Ogerpon-cornerstone: 5 -> 4

Rock type is a lot stronger right now given the mons that are seeing high usage. Rock type sturdy redirector gives a lot of teams reliable setup/tempo versus some of the very offensive flutter/sun/snow teams.

:regieleki: UR -> 4

Makes your team better into flutter (seeing a trend with my noms?) Due to faster electroweb, also can flex into screens or rising voltage stuff.

:nihilego: UR -> 4

Meteor beam giving this mon +spatk, and +speed on a kill (or +2 spatk) lets it snowball pretty hard on teams that can support it well. Meteor beam ohkos lando-i, and gets lando-t after some chip. It is also surprisingly bulky, despite its low defense stat.

:great-tusk: UR -> 4

Cool mon on sun offense, clicking EQ next to zard-y is strong. Also checks rock types for zard

:manectric-mega: UR -> 5

Lot of electric mons doing well right now, so lightningrod is solid. Also fast pivot makes it somewhat viable on fini teams that need role compression.

:mawile-mega: UR -> 4

Similar reasoning to kingambit, except this mon actually resists flutter. Using your mega on this mon is probably not super worth it over m-scizor, but if your team needs to compress a fairy resist + iron hands killer into one slot it is pretty uniquely mawile that fills that role.

 

[Glimmer]

I agree with most of the current noms to some degree but i wanted to state some of my own opinions too.
:incineroar: Tier 1 -> Tier 2
I will mostly reiterate what Kunal said for the mon. The tier simply just demands Incineroar less, its value and place dropped with a lot of Fake Out and Intimidate users and Fire-types competing for its slot. Incineroar is also annoyed by the uptick of Clear Amulet setup, physical guys who can hit it hard and super effectively such as Landorus-Therian, Dracovish, and the Tyranitars, and especially strong special attackers. Not resisting Fairy really sucks when Flutter Mane is so strong.

:salamence-mega: Tier 2 -> Tier 1
Salamence has always been at the top of the mega hierarchy, even when Mega Metagross was legal. But especially since Stakataka's ban, Salamence has been nigh uncontested for the mega slot as it doesnt have that many clear checks. It is basically a more spammable version of Charizard-Y, which showed by it having the second highest usage rate in Derby with a positive winrate. Its combination of utility, power, and bulk is just really valuable and Flying is a super broken type to have consistent STAB for with Aerilate Double-Edge, Return, and Hyper Voice.

:marshadow: Tier 2 -> Tier 3
Marshadow has honestly never been a Tier 2 threat since Zamazenta's ban, it is a really weak Pokemon without Chien-Pao and it doesn't even have to exist in Chien-Pao teams. With Chien-Pao also falling off and a lot of the Pokemon who destroy Marshadow like Mega Salamence and Tapu Fini being so popular, it was honestly an inevitable fall off. It is still a pretty threatening mon and PaoMarsh is a very threatening core, just not the same as before.

:gardevoir-mega: Tier 3 -> Tier 2
Mega Gardy's combination of special bulk, power, and move options makes it a very good choice for a lot of offense teams. Not only is it the best PsySpam mon, it also fits on a lot of teams just to break with Calm Mind or set Trick Room. Garde + Pao is also a nice combination due to Psyshock, which helps it take down Assault Vest users and would be Fairy resistant Fire-types such as Rillaboom, Charizard-Y, Volcarona, and Volcanion. It is a decent bit higher maintenance than Charizard-Y and Salamence due to lacking in physical bulk, but the maintenance is usually worth the effort.

:tapu-koko: Tier 4 -> Tier 3
This archetype is honestly hard carried by Iron Hands and Kyurem-B, but those two are so strong under ETerrain that its worth the effort. It's not like Tapu Koko is bad though. Being an Electric-type is really nice in this metagame, no less one that outspeeds Marshadow and Salamence AND has super-effective STAB Dazzling Gleam against both. Electroweb and Volt Switch are also really good moves to click in this specific speed tier. The sleep block ETerrain provides is also pretty valuable too. All around solid mon that anchors a pretty good albeit inflexible archetype.

:archaludon::pelipper: Tier 3 -> Tier 4
Rain kinda sucks, especially Archaludon rain. Rain is really bad at winning the current weather war. The only weather Rain has a good matchup into is Snow and very certain Sand archetypes with Dracozolt + regular Tyranitar which aren't present enough to rely on. On top of all of this Archaludon's lackluster Special bulk along with the need to Tera to even survive for a few turns against a lot of teams really sucks. And Electro Shot isn't even that big of a button in this tier, a bulk invested Archaludon's Electro Shot is only a roll to kill a mere 252 HP Tapu Fini. Pelipper is also straight up worse than Politoed, Pelipper is only better on Archaludon rain teams which as aforementioned kinda suck. If you really wanna use Rain pipe down and use that Basculegion Politoed MScizor core, that one's pretty good and actually wins against Sand and has a not super hard losing matchup into Sun.

:tornadus: Tier 2 -> Tier 3
The Tailwind slot is insanely contested, which makes Tornadus a secondary option a lot of the time. Mostly due to not being able to match the power and bulk that are provided by the Tailwind Megas. Due to this lack of staying power, Tornadus usually only gets one Tailwind off and then maybe gets a good kill with Flyinium Z. Tornadus is also super do-nothing into a lot of matchups, especially sand and Trick Room with Diancie or Mega Gardevoir, where Tailwind can be a waste of a turn. Prankster Tailwind and Supersonic Skystrike are still pretty good buttons but simply not as valuable as before.

:deoxys-attack: Tier 4 -> Tier 3
By far the strongest matchup fish in the tier, this mon is a menace that demands no mistakes from the opponent. A reliable Deo-A team that has a fine time dealing with those double terrain or Sand matchups is a force to be reckoned with. Expanding Force is also notably just broken as hell.

:lilligant-hisui::swampert-mega: kill Tier 5 shitters
Who has used these in recent times, or even considered them? bsfr

:araquanid::smeargle: new Tier 5 shitters
These mons actually do things (mostly in Trick Room teams). Z Water from Araquanid is pretty damn scary and Smeargle can Decorate Mega Camel and Diancie to make them super threatening.

 

[Smudge]

The latest slate has been completed. This round of voters was comprised of:

Voters

Smudge
big pichu
eragon
Nido-Rus
Glimmer
sir jelloton
Iceberg77
Voltix
Terekusai

Listed below is the current placing of mons, with an arrow and number denoting how many tiers it rose or fell, respectively. This is also reflected in the original post.

Tier Two:
:Heatran: Heatran ↑ 1
:Landorus: Landorus ↑ 2
:Incineroar: Incineroar ↓ 1

Tier Three:
:Chien-Pao: Chien-Pao ↓ 1
:Deoxys-Attack: Deoxys-Attack ↑ 1
:Kyurem-Black: Kyurem-Black ↑ 1
:Marshadow: Marshadow ↓ 1
:tyranitar: Tyranitar ↑ 1
:Zeraora: Zeraora ↑ 1

Tier Four:
:Kartana: Kartana ↓ 1
:Kingambit: Kingambit ↓ 1
:Tyranitar-Mega: Mega Tyranitar ↑ 1
:Ogerpon-Cornerstone: Ogerpon-Cornerstone ↓ 1
:Pelipper: Pelipper ↓ 1
:sinistcha: Sinistcha NEW!
:Volcanion: Volcanion ↓ 1
:xurkitree: Xurkitree ↓ 1

Tier Five:
:aegislash: Aegislash NEW!
:nihilego: Nihilego NEW!
:Porygon2: Porygon2 ↓ 1
:regieleki: Regieleki NEW!
:roaring-moon: Roaring Moon NEW!
:Tsareena: Tsareena ↓ 1

Voted to be unranked as of this slate:
:Dragonite: Dragonite
:Kommo-O: Kommo-O
:Lilligant-Hisui: Lilligant-Hisui
:Swampert-Mega: Mega Swampert
:Ogerpon: Ogerpon

 

[ratpacker]

Thoughts on sets and mons I used in Derby + NDWC:
If you are running setup you should be able to KO something on the following turn or be sure it's your endgame. Stuff hits way too hard here for something like Calm Mind Tapu Fini.

Tier 1:
:salamence-mega::charizard-mega-y: : insanely strong offensive presence and good support kit.
:flutter-mane: : the best friend of the two tier 1 megas.
:iron-hands: : Sponges damage and KOs back. It's even sponge colored.

Tier 2:
:marshadow: The number 1 reason why Flutter has to invest bulk and why Jirachi isn't Tier 1 in my opinion. Life Orb and Fightinium-Z are its best sets.

Tier 3:
:ferrothorn: The only mon in the tier that can switch into Flutter Gardevoir Tapu Fini and threaten them out.
:nihilego: The only mon in the tier that naturally threatens a Flutter + Tier 1 Mega lead.
:celesteela: I'm not sure people are aware of how starved the tier is for good Fairy resists.
:gouging-fire: I just think this guy is neat.

Tier 4
:necrozma: Sets Trick Room in front of Flutter Mane and click Z. This is the next best option after Diancie purely to set Trick Room.

Tier 5:
:tapu-koko: This mon is garbage. Setting Electric Terrain for the opposing Iron Hands is so bad. I'd vote it for UR.
:abomasnow-mega: It's actually decent, it resists Amoonguss, clicks Blizzard and has big stats. It just requires dedicated teammates to resist Fire and set Trick Room.

This KOs no bulk Salamence and Mr. Fish®, and Tornadus with Double-Edge, while still outspeeding it. It has enough bulk to live Z-Thunderbolt from Tapu Koko, taking away the one possible bit of relevance Tapu Koko could have in the tier.

Salamence

FLIING DUTOSHOMAN (Salamence-Mega) @ Salamencite
Ability: Intimidate
Happiness: 0
Tera Type: Dragon
EVs: 196 HP / 72 Atk / 36 SpA / 16 SpD / 188 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Double-Edge
- Draco Meteor
- Tailwind
- Protect

This lives Double-Edge from Salamence and outspeeds Protosynthesis Flutter Mane with Tailwind.

Charizard-Y

REQUIEM AETERNAM (Charizard-Mega-Y) @ Charizardite Y
Ability: Drought
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 116 HP / 104 Def / 120 SpA / 168 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Heat Wave
- Tailwind
- Scorching Sands
- Protect

This lives -1 Shadow Sneak from Life Orb Marshadow with some HP invested.

Flutter Mane

LACRIMOSA (Flutter Mane) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 72 HP / 108 Def / 76 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moonblast
- Dazzling Gleam
- Shadow Ball
- Icy Wind

My teamdump is here, Kyurem-Black is good and I have no opinion on rain. Goodbye.

 

[Kunal]

Here are my current tiering takes after NDPL, and the ban of Deoxys-Attack. I think Flutter Mane and Basc/Last Respects are both super banworthy, and given that flutter was already suspected recently Basc would be my next choice to vote on.

:Incineroar: 2 -> 1: The tier needs a pivot badly, and this mon is slightly more role compression than Lando-t. With recent builds, having the pivot mon also resist zard-y and also match the pace of setup mons is a bit more important so Incineroar should probably come back up to Tier 1.

:Basculegion: 3 -> 2: Last respects is broken. This mon is surprisingly splashable with just a scarf, and will basically always trade positively. Deo-A being gone also opens up scarf Basc as a much more accessible option, since there are now basically 0 sash users and also probably fewer Indeedees.

:Ursaluna: 4 -> 2 or 3: We have seen this mon have a super dominant showing recently in NDPL and NDDLT, especially with the addition of z-trick room bronzong next to it. It has seen appearances on full room, sun, semi-room balance, and more. Completely overpowering pokemon in position, and still generally bulky enough to trade one for one on unfavorable boards. Not sure if its tier 2 status yet, but its definitely 3 at worst.

:Landorus: 2 -> 3: While the mon is a great offensive pin, ogerpons should see a bit of a resurgence due to deo ban and flutter still remains as a constant lando inhibitor. Jirachi is getting slightly less usage, Amoonguss and Bronzong are getting slightly more usage, mons like Marshadow are getting more usage which all put lando in slightly more unfavorable matchups across the board. Still a good mon, just not as much of a staple IMO

:Rillaboom: 2 -> 3: NGL just look at the mons tiered above this guy, it just isnt that good. Especially with deoxys down, this mon basically exists to check Tapu Fini, Tyranitar and Ursaluna, and doesn't even do those things particularly well when Tera is in play. I did see an interesting rock tera blast set recently, and low key that might be the way to go with this mon nowadays as a way to hit zard-y mence and flutter in 1 bulky mon.

:tapu-fini: 2 -> 3: The rise of offensive raging bolt was really damaging to Fini's success, and with ogerpons and zeraora seeing more usage recently Fini has felt more and more unimpactful. Still a great mon on some teams, but not nearly as widely strong as it was.

:bronzong: UR -> 3: the Z-trick room hypnosis set and also the iron defense body press set have both proven themselves very aggresively recently. This mon is particularly good at enabling ursaluna, and setting TR while still being able to resist and hit flutter mane. Common trend of the last few tiering comments by other community members - flutter resists are good almost no matter what.

I have some other tier changes in the tiermaker below that I don't really care to discuss at length or dont feel super strongly about as they affect the lower rankings. Feel free to take a look

Full VR

 

[Test Bots]

Here are a couple (actually a lot) of my thoughts concerning the metagame.

---

:Charizard-Mega-Y: 2 → 3
I wouldn’t say the enabler is as strong as the abusers, but it is still more useful and stronger than the other setters. Zard also doesn’t fit in a “variety of teams,” but it is a “defining piece” to an archetype, so according to the tier description, it should belong in tier 3.

:Amoonguss: 2 → 3
Even as a redirector with Spore, I don’t think Guss fits in a variety of teams. On a more offensive team, I’d rather use the Ogerpons. For teams that have setup users such as Mence or Kyube, Jirachi perfectly matches their weakness. Not to mention, Jirachi has a lot more utilities. On the other hand, Guss seems to do better against certain archetypes, namely Rain and Trick Room. I think Tier 3 is where it should belong along with other mons that I would generally watch out for as well.

:Heatran: 2 → 3
Heatran is probably the best mon to switch into Flutter Mane, but as a threat itself, I don’t see it as greater than Firepon or Chi-Yu. This metagame has so many Fire-types that it seems like they're always competing for a slot.

:Landorus: 2 → 3
Landorus is the best mon to deal with Tier 2 mons (which includes Heatran, Incineroar, Iron Hands, Jirachi, Raging Bolt, Rillaboom, and Tapu Fini). However, its middling speed tier makes it an easy target for faster foes.

:Salamence-Mega: 2 → 1
“Pokemon that dominate a large portion of the metagame . They are either quite powerful or offer great team support (Tailwind.. sure), and can fit on almost any team . You can't really go wrong by using these Pokemon .”

---

:Diancie: 3 → 2
When I want a TR setter, Diancie is usually the first in mind. Diamond Storm is broken and the random boosts that it provides could mean the end of your team. Like Garde, it can still function in TW, but it does a lot better against tier 1 mons (FM and in my opinion Mence as well).

:Indeedee-F: 3 → 4
It’s a setter that you switch via the Eject button. Let the abusers remain on higher tiers, but by itself, it is not a threat.

:Landorus-Therian: 3 → 4
Some players seemed to have used it to a good extent. However, I’m not really sold, especially the Z set. Choice / AV sets are alright, but they don’t guarantee OHKO’s to a lot of mons like the Ursa’s do. Fun fact: Lando-T is the metagame’s best Explosion user; use it next to a Ghost-type.

:Ursaluna-Bloodmoon: + :Ursaluna: 3/4 → ?
Both mons should be in the same tier. They function differently, but at the end of the day, they’re both OHKO’ing mons as long as they have the speed advantage. I’m leaning both mons to be in tier 3.

---

:Tyranitar-Mega: 4 → 3
Sand is good. Mega or not, they’re both good stuff.

:Kartana: 4 → 5 (UR)
Does anyone really think of this mon for metagame relevancy? Things could go out of hand once it gets its boosts, but there’s better mons that can straight up OHKO other mons without even needing the boosts.

:Zapdos: 4 → 5 (UR)
Has as much metagame relevancy as Kartana. Time to drop it to the shadow realm.

---

:Ferrothorn: 5 → 4
The type of mon when if you lose your Fire-type, then you’re going to have some trouble. Like Celesteela, it's a good Leech Seed’er, but Body Press and Iron Barb kill the opposing mons faster. It’s good against most archetypes.

:Hoopa-Unbound: + :Iron-Crown: 5 → 4
They’re not the number one choice (Garde), but they’re definitely the next. Deoxys-A being gone doesn’t mean Psy Spam is dead. We just got more variety.

:Nihilego: 5 → 4
You got a general Scizor team? Use Nihilego. You got a Rain team? Slap in a Nihilego. You need a Fairy-resist. Well, here’s Nihilego, again. The only reason why I ain’t placing it higher is cause Jirachi makes the mon useless on the field.

:Bronzong: UR → 3
Sleep + Accuracy boost is broken; the complex sleep clause should never have been limited to just Gravity. Zong doesn’t care about Misty Terrain cause it just uses Ice Spinner.

:Swampert-Mega: UR → 5
Pert got a lot of shit when Rillaboom was the craze, but with more team variety, I think Pert has a shot. I always found Bolt and Hands to be annoying when using Rain, but Pert is perhaps the only Rain abuser who can face them without consequences. For now, Tier 5 seems about right.

 

[eragon]

We updated the vr!

Voters

Smudge
eragon
Kunal
Glimmer
Voltix
Schister
Terekusai

Tier 1:

:Incineroar: Incineroar ↑ 1

Tier 2:

:Kangaskhan-Mega: Kangaskhan-Mega ↑ 1
:Ogerpon-Hearthflame:Ogerpon-Hearthflame ↑ 1
:Ogerpon-Wellspring: Ogerpon-Wellspring ↑ 1

Tier 3:
:Amoonguss: Amoonguss ↓ 1
:Iron Hands: Iron Hands ↓ 1
:Tornadus: Tornadus ↓ 1

:Blastoise: Blastoise ↑ 1
:Celesteela: Celesteela ↑ 1
:Gholdengo: Gholdengo ↑ 1
:Tyranitar-Mega: Tyranitar-Mega ↑ 1
:Ursaluna: Ursaluna ↑ 1

:Roaring Moon: Roaring Moon ↑ 2
:Nihilego: Nihilego ↑ 2

:Bronzong: Bronzong NEW!

Tier 4:
:Chi-Yu: Chi-Yu ↓ 1
:Indeedee-F: Indeedee-F ↓ 1
:Tyranitar: Tyranitar ↓ 1
:Ursaluna-Bloodmoon: Ursaluna-Bloodmoon↓ 1

:Diancie-Mega: Diancie-Mega ↑ 1
:Ferrothorn: Ferrothorn ↑ 1

Tier 5

:Camerupt-Mega: Camerupt-Mega ↓ 1
:Zapdos: Zapdos ↓ 1

:Great Tusk: Great Tusk NEW!
:Meloetta: MeloettaNEW!
:Ninetales-Alola: Ninetales-Alola NEW!
:Garganacl: GarganaclNEW!
:Okidogi: Okidogi NEW!

Mons that dropped to UR:
:Aegislash:Aegislash
:Metagross: Metagross
:Scream Tail: Scream Tail
:Tsareena: Tsareena

 

[Monai]

:brute_bonnet: UR ↑ 5

Explanation for nerds

I might do a bigger vr post after derby and edit this one if I feel strongly about a lot of Pokemon, but I wanted to espouse brute Bonnet for at least tier 5. It has some pretty awful weaknesses to Flutter MegaY and Mence, but its huge bulk and Protosynthesis lets you take hits even from them. Higher BST than Amoong and a decent offensive profile with spore can be pretty demonic, while the lower speed than Ogerpon helps it underspeed Mgarde and Tailroom Ursalunas against TR. While the aforementioned weaknesses are pretty nasty, resistances/immunities to ground, psychic, grass/spore, elec, and water helps anchor sun ho vs problem matchups like raging bolt and trick room, which is a niche amoong and ogerpons can't always fulfill, and my team in particular could give it the tera pretty regularly.

Brute Bonnet does something neat at the end of the game

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldexdoubles-2587385305-0cphwfa4jq53keoag6gqr2jfs7npbxopw

 

[gephicka]

some post DPL thoughts

:Heatran: Heatran
tier 2 -> tier 3
i think this guy is really mediocre outside of AV on a few teams. fire damage is done better by a lot of other guys and the ogerpons + lando-i rising is doing it no favors. its also just quite weak unless it's clicking Z or eruption which are both a bit unreliable on it.

:Marshadow: Marshadow
tier 3 -> tier 1
tier 3 is larp for this guy regardless, i think its just the strongest offensive mon in the tier right now and i don't think it's particularly close. there's genuinely only a few mons in the whole tier that can hold up to it defensively and they all get fucking obliterated by chien-pao or just by marsh in a better position.

:Archaludon: Archaludon
tier 3 -> tier 4
i think rain is so ass right now, and even if you were to run it i think basc is much more important to the structure. it's so hard to fit a quality flutter resist and archaludon on rain at the same time without making yourself too weak to landorus + flutter which makes it so dubious for me in the builder.

:gholdengo: Gholdengo
tier 3 -> tier 4
this guy is nowhere near the other tier 3 guys especially not in the Marshadow renaissance. it's a flutter resist that doesn't resist shadow ball, make it rain isn't a particularly good STAB move in this tier either.

:Zeraora: Zeraora
tier 3 -> tier 2
its speed tier, bulk, utility kit, & mence resist feel so good. having fast ewebs/fake out/pivot & the sheer adaptability of its toolkit i think have become all the more valuable in the tier

:Volcanion: Volcanion
:Kartana: Kartana
:Entei: Entei
:sinistcha: Sinistcha
:volcarona: Volcarona
:dracozolt: Dracozolt
tier 4 -> tier 5
what do most of these guys even do? none of these have made it past the "untitled 1284" stage of my builder nor do i think they're of high enough quality to do so except for the most specific of circumstances (and if i get to the point where one of these fixes my build i'd probably scrap the idea anyways)

:iron crown: Iron Crown
:Great tusk: Great Tusk
tier 5 -> tier 4
these guys have like 2-ish teams each, i think crown is especially underexplored at the moment & these two are definitely more usable than a lot of their compatriots in tier 5

:Glimmora: Glimmora
tier 3 -> tier 4
i think this guy's speed tier really lets it down in comparison to nihilego, tspikes & earth power are nice but not getting over zard & lando feels really mid. it's nowhere near as splashable or immediately threaening as nihi and probably shouldn't be in the same tier as it

:Iron Hands: Iron Hands
tier 3 -> tier 4
i'm kind of at a point where i'm just like, when would i ever use this guy over zeraora/incin/rilla? the only real use for it i see anymore is some kind of setup and in a marshadow economy? i just don't think it really gets much value in this tier anymore and i really haven't found any good usecases for it since the deo-a ban

:Dracovish: Dracovish
tier 3 -> tier 4
i think solo dracovish is quite bad & should just be a basculegion, and that sand as an archtype just has a few too many holes to be great. Dracovish is such a flawed wallbreaker in this economy, being stopped by priority, ogerpon-wellspring stuffing it entirely, mence still really annoys it. mega tar is quite good and i think can even be used outside of vish to some success, but i think some new ground needs to be broken on vish before it can really come into the sun again (or sand i suppose)

 

[Ultimathrash]

Had a great time teaming with xqiht and ysjssg in NDPL this year(as well as of course eldids), xq did the teamdump here so I'm gonna write up some VR thoughts and do a tier list:

Pretend roaring moon is tier 2. Everything tier 4 and below is lowk just random bullshit i thought was worth mentioning, don't think too hard about them.

Incineroar 1->2
Incineroar usage fell off a cliff this ndpl, 10% usage and 33% WR. A lot of the time an intimidate slot is just not necessary, or you would also want to compress intimidate+stealth rocks with Lando-T, or use one of the best megas in the tier in Mence. There's also plenty of fake out options with pivoting like toise rilla zera, so incin's tool kit just isn't at a premium right now. Just less dominant as a mon than it has been.

Rilla 2->1
Fake out+solid damage+good bulk+pivoting+terrain control. Super splashable mon, and most used in ndpl with a 52% wr to boot. Could probably do with more set variety but honestly fake out/hammer/glide/u-turn is just so good it doesn't really need it. One of the best mons in the tier right now.

Kyurem-Black->2
The clam dd set just blasts through everything after one (1) dd. Loaded dice 3a can fire off speed boosting 4 hit scale shots off of 170 base attack immediately and follow it up with 4 hit icicle spears and fusion bolts. 700 bst is just a monstrous stat stick, frankly hard to regret using a mon like this. Boasts a 62% WR in ndpl while being the 7th most used mon. All it needs is a dd, and all it needs to get off a dd is 1 follow me click or a fake out; not really the most support heavy mon so definitely T2.

Basculegion->2
Adaptability scarf last respects is a super strong lategame cleaner, being able to blast through every mon except like mega kang. AV has also been seeing usage, leveraging a monster 120 hp stat to let bascu stick around and chip with flip turns, while throwing off wave crashes and later boosted last respects that lowk ko everything. Frankly you can fit either set on any tw offense and live with it, espcially now there isnt a certain lorb shadow sneaker

Blastoise->2
My eyes were opened by Kunal after he said that blastoise>rachi with his source being 'just trust me bro.' Anyways he was right and I should trust him more. Literally godly role compression, fake out icy wind life dew follow me flip turn roar helping hand, on top of really good bulk that often means u can go cloak>sitrus just for fun. Definitely a borderline broken support mon.

Rachi->3
I don't think this guy has been seen as much as of late because no pivoting and a lackluster typing. Like i guess you could use baton pass? idk. Either way i'm firmly sold on toise.

Roaring Moon->2
This guy inexplicably had a 0% WR in ndpl. Our bad guys. Still the best tw setter idc

Torn->2
Can't really go wrong with this guy, z-fly is really good at removing the inconsistency of bleakmiss storm and flying is a strong offensive typing at just chunking things for neutral. Same as SV, the deep bag of status moves helps out as well, serving as a back up manual weather setter/taunt user.

Diancie->2
So many times in ndpl I looked at a scout and just thought 'diancie 6-0s the top 6 mons.' We proceeded to load diancie exactly 0 times. Sigh! WIth marsh gone I just think diancie is going to be a lot better, the meta rn is fast and very offensive so diancie being able to slow the game down with def boosts and provide an alternative trick room mode to your menceslop is pretty valuable. Also, diamond storm is busted. Admittedly a shaky T2 spot tho

Raging Bolt->2
Lorb tera electric tbolt in sun is a nuclear bomb. Spammed lorb bolt sun in tests because it is such a brute force offensive piece that can muscle through many mons with either sun boosted lorb boosted dpulse or sun boosted lorb boosted tbolts. Unfortunately it lacks spread damage(vest is ass). Cm is probably fine too i guess.

Ogerpon-cornerstone->3
I love this guy. Rock moves are broken. Follow me is busted, strong physical attacker that hits the intimidaters.

Nihilego->3
I love this guy. Rock moves are broken. xqiht you will change your opinion on z-rock when you miss meteor beam soon...
Max speed special sweeper is good, no speed invest meat beam tr is good s/o nido, z-rock stealth rocks is good(I promise guys). Very solid mon, usually the big bp single use rock move can chunk non-resists, and 109/131 special bulk is always a bonus.

Diancie-Mega->3
I love this guy. Rock moves are broken. Super good on tw phys structures because ts attack stat says 160. In fact, the spa stat is also 160, so you can save your evs to 'live grassy glide' and still do 150% to mega mence with moonblast. Super fast spread attacker is good guys.

Mega Scizor->3
Lowkey just glazing my ndpl mascot but its a good mon I swear! It hard counters flutter, diancie, diancie-mega and uhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
...
Yeah it's probably T4. Super fun when you run into triple steel weak tho!

Iron hands->4
Pretend this guy isnt in T3, not bothered to change my tier list. At no point during ndpl did i say 'hands looks good here.' Slow as fuck fake out, sd is overshadowed by better tr sweepers, too specially frail for a specially attacking format.

Great tusk->4
On sun a rapid spinner is lowk nice to have, and also proto-attack close combats+headlong rushes are another strong weapon to consider in your next sun ho team.

Indeedee->3
I lowk just noticed indd is in t2. oops! should be t3

Mons to keep an eye on:
Zong->2
Technically a defining piece of hardroom and hence T3 but like please ban. Only way to prevent z-tr is literally like zardy overheat. Unhealthy and rng dependent.

Arch
T3 by technicality, 100% WR in ndpl, this dude is mu fishing in its purest form. Currently been kept in check by the amount of specially offensive pieces that dominate the tier, but the support guys here are so much more broken than in SV DOU that I personally think it would be worth suspecting with only a touch more optimisation.

Flutter
I just don't like it.



Anyways i think the meta is in a good and fun place, plenty of variety to experiment with. Excited to play in invitationals and hopefully return to support in NDCL!!!!

 

[Kin+ak (✧∇✧)]

If you're gonna advocate for a ban relative to zong let's just ban Hypnosis. If you think we aren't about to see Musharna usage if bronzong is banned, you are mad.

 

[SeaLife]

Zong->2
Technically a defining piece of hardroom and hence T3 but like please ban. Only way to prevent z-tr is literally like zardy overheat. Unhealthy and rng dependent.

Click to collapse...

Correction: Zong neednt RNG, it just needs to stand on the field with its +1 accuracy

 

[Ultimathrash]

Correction: Zong neednt RNG, it just needs to stand on the field with its +1 accuracy

Click to collapse...

But sleep surely counts as rng right? Without hypno, z-trick room is merely a fancy mental herb

 

[12-XVI]

But sleep surely counts as rng right? Without hypno, z-trick room is merely a fancy mental herb

Click to collapse...

It does more than that, it prevents people from using Encore to force you to undo your own Trick Room.

 

[Kin+ak (✧∇✧)]

That's also what a mental herb does buddy

Z Trick Room with no Hypno is just an excuse to use Alolan Exeggutor as a makeshift amoonguss with Trick Room.

On the topic of VR I think Tier 5 should have a lot more Pokémon like do you have any Idea how many things can work but need lots of support? If Tier 5 was true to its definition it would be the Biggest tier by a huge margin

 

[12-XVI]

That's also what a mental herb does buddy

Click to collapse...

Not in the same battle.

If you have Mental Herb then the opponent can Taunt you activating Mental Herb, and then you use Trick Room, and then the opponent can target you with Encore, normally forcing you to either switch or undo your own Trick Room.

But if you use Z-Trick Room instead then you can take a Taunt and then stay in and enjoy Trick Room with Bronzong even if the opponent tries to Encore you.

 

[Kin+ak (✧∇✧)]

First off you're miserable if you run Pranster Taunt+Encore, and You didn't point out the fact that Z trick room works through Imprison which is something Mental herb can't do

 

[12-XVI]

First off you're miserable if you run Pranster Taunt+Encore,

Click to collapse...

It's a legitimate strategy even though battling against this strategy can be a real struggle.

and You didn't point out the fact that Z trick room works through Imprison which is something Mental herb can't do

Click to collapse...

“If I raise one corner for someone and he cannot come back with the other three, I do not go on.”