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Announcement Roaring Moon Retest — Qualified Discussion

On a merely a priori basis, one would expect Roaring Moon to be insanely broken. It's a testament to how strong this stupid thing is that its most commonly cited "weakness" is its 105/71 physical bulk (making it naturally bulkier than Clefable). Since it cleanly lives a +1 adamant Tera Normal Dnite Espeed without any bulk investment, I'm not counting that as a genuine weakness.

Roaring Moon's virtues for a team are immense: the fastest booster energy user in the game, massive damage potential, considerable set variety (including tera type), strong utility/breaking moves in knock and taunt, recovery, and a statline second only to Zamazenta as far as OU mons go. Thus, there's plenty of fair reasons to be concerned about Moon, and I was pretty staunchly opposed to letting it back into the tier long before the suspect test was announced. I believed that Moon's return would pretty much kill balance as a viable playstyle, adding yet another dangerous breaking threat and wincon that would be impossible to wall in combination with the tier's other insane balance killers like Kyurem, Ceru, and Woger. Yes, balance has tools to deal with Moon in defensive Dnite, Moltres, Skarm and Corv, and even rarer picks like Mandi and Dondozo. But would balance structures be able to bear the total load of all of those breakers combined?

All of that being said, we need to go off of empirical data before rendering any decisive judgments on Moon. So in practice, does it actually kill balance? I noticed that a lot of the structures I tend to build really struggle into the Moon meta – not just Moon itself, but the entire ecosystem it creates. In fact, during my suspect laddering run, I noticed that hardly any teams I faced were of any archetype outside of offense, either, making midladder especially feel like a homogenous slog. I will grant that when an offensive mon is reintroduced to the tier, it's not surprising that players will gravitate toward offense to slot the new toy. I will also grant that I saw more variety in my last day of laddering, including two stall teams. Nonetheless, I was shocked to see classic meta staple structures like Ghold-Lu-Dnite seemingly abandoned in favor of near constant offenseslop.

For my suspects run, I wanted to build a balance team that would be able to defensively handle Moon well. The team I ended up earning reqs with is admittedly rather strange, but handles most meta threats fairly well. For the Moon matchup, fully physdef rocky helm Lu with rest and body press trades into pre-Tera Moon, while unaware Dirge can also trade Teras to wall it if necessary. Blissey's heal bell makes Lu reliable enough to potentially trade into several mons in a single game, while also making Rillaboom's knock off less of a risk into Moltres and Zapdos. The six mons together form a strong enough breaking core that I was able to beat an Amoongus stall as my final game to achieve reqs.

Back to Moon, though. Is this thing too broken to allow in OU? I do think that the tier would survive a Roaring Moon meta, but balance will suffer. Yet I also think that it will find ways to adapt. Storm Zone already posted a number of balance teams in the metagame discussion thread that he says work well into Moon, and those are all more conventional than the team I created. It seems that Skarm/Molt/Corv paired with appropriate priority moves to handle matchup-flipping teras (like body press helm Skarm paired with Bolt thunderclap and Weavile ice shard for the tera flying flip) is looking promising. I think my team also shows the value of grassy terrain for dealing with earthquake sets.

Altogether, I don't think Roaring Moon is quite as bad as I expected. There are legitimate trade-offs in each Moon set choice. On one hand, the set variety provides an epistemic advantage to Moon users, but no single set can do everything. In this respect, it resembles many of OU's top tier mons that I would call ultimately balanced, including Woger, Dnite, Zama, and Kyurem. However, I still have strong doubts about this thing's benefits to the tier, besides dampening the strength of the annoying Cresselia. I'm currently leaning in the direction of Do Not Unban.
 
There's already been a ton of discussion on whether :roaring-moon: is too broken/fishy/centralizing here so I wanna tackle this from a different angle. Let me preface this with the fact I am currently voting DO NOT UNBAN, but I am presenting this neutrally and am open to changing my mind.

The most obvious victims of RMoon are :cresselia:/:Ceruledge: which are both pokemon that can rot in hell. RMoon also brutalizes pretty much all of our current defensive structures with taunt, and still plenty without. The other key pokemon which suffer from RMoon's reintroduction sire clod and raffe touched upon are offense pokemon like :Zamazenta:/:ogerpon-wellspring:/:gholdengo:/:Darkrai:/:kingambit:. So rather than discuss about RMoon itself, lets theorize about how the tier will respond?

Stall/Balance in their current iterations are not making it in a RMoon meta. I don't think they're going to be unviable, but they have to adapt pretty wildly around RMoon. Offense is the most interesting to discuss; while lots of key pokemon are worse in a moon meta, it also gets to use moon which leads to an interesting dynamic. The types of Offense pokemon that get nerfed by RMoon is "(Somewhat) Bulky and Immediately powerful" that just click attacks, while the styles RMoon is best on are more one dimensional, aiming to end the game in one sweep/on matchup like Screens/HO/Sun. The sun discussion especially is an encapsulation of this, giving sun another broken tool that is checked by enemy RMoons.

I think it's safe to say reintroducing moon pushes styles to their extremities with balances getting fatter and offense getting further streamlined. That's not the kind of meta I really am looking forward to. While Offense is probably a bit too powerful right now, redistributing that power to teams trying to gun for that one boost which cleans house seems distastful as well (like :dragonite: isn't enough already). There's also a real possibility the already struggling balance simply doesn't have the sauce to fully adapt and ends up further outclassed by Offense. It's for these reasons I am currently still DNU.


Oh and as for the team I used to get reps? Take a wild guess lol
 
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ok after a lot of struggle and games I finally got there after stealing the right sz teams also this took too long cuz I was grinding for that pirate token (still don't have it)
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I didn't use moon too much myself but by the end of reqs I was fighting it just about every single game and I really do think it's fine. I'm pretty awful at explaining my thoughts but here's about how I feel:

Basically every time I fought it I could go into ting, or garg, or gweez, or clef, or a metal bird and somewhat comfortably hold it off, and if ting can whirlwind it out then that's even better. I will say that clef and metal birds seem like slightly shakier counterplay, with how much acro/eq and knock does to them respectively, and I can imagine a sequence of events where moon overpowers them (but I never saw that happen cuz they just get to +1 and keep clicking attacks)

If it's booster attack then you can position into something like weavile and outspeed and kill it outright, looking at the speed tiers I also see zama/pult/meow? raw above this speed range, to say nothing of scarfers/boosters. And yes moon is the fastest booster energy user but if even booster attack struggled to get through all that stuff then booster speed is doing even worse. Weavile especially was my mvp because ice shard really scares the hell out of moon.

Subjectively speaking I actually had a lot of fun playing this meta, and I feel like moon is about as explored as it can be (unless someone wants to bust out jaw lock again). Compared to how I felt playing this meta a few weeks ago it just felt a lot more interesting and dynamic. I want to read more thoughts but at this point I'd support unban
 
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