-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
Pokemon RBY In-game Tiers - Mark II
- Thread starter Mekkah
- Start date
- Status
I don't see my Machamp Yellow review on the front page, did you disagree with me?
Here it is, in case you missed it:
Machamp: Low Tier
-Availability: Machamp is obtained through a traded Cubone, who is available at Pokemon Tower. So Mid-Game.
-Stats: Machamp has a huge Attack stat, but has rather average defenses and low Speed.
-Movepool: Mostly TM dependent, Rock Slide and Earthquake provide good coverage.
-Power: Due to his huge Attack stat, Machamp hits hard.
-Type: Fighting. In a game where Dark and Steel don't exist, and Poison types are omnipresent. Fighting isn't the best STAB to have.
-Matchups:
--Koga: His whole team packs Super Effective Psychic which takes Machamp down easily.
--Sabrina: Her Pokemon outspeed and pack Super Effective Psychic to take Machamp out.
--Blaine: Machamp can hit his Pokemon hard with Dig or Earthquake, but keep in mind all of his Pokemon outspeed Machamp and Machamp doesn't enjoy taking Fire moves. A Fire Blast burn will put a huge damper on Machamp's performance.
--Giovanni: Machamp can beat Persian due to fighting STAB, and Earthquake hits majority of his team for Super Effective damage. However, Giovanni's Nidos and Rhydon can take a hit and retaliate with their own offensive moves.
--Lorelei: Fighting is Super Effective on Ice, but Submission is a bad STAB move due to accuracy and recoil issues. Meanwhile, Machamp is worn down by Special Attacks.
--Bruno: Fighting verse Fighting, Machamp breaks even here if you are at similar levels.
--Agatha: Earthquake hits her team for Super Effective, while Rock Slide deals with Golbat. However, keep in mind her Pokemon are fast and her final Gengar knows Psychic.
--Lance: While Rock Slide is Super Effective against half his Pokemon, Machamp wont enjoy taking Special Attacks or Hyper Beam. Not to mention Aerodactyl has Super Effective STAB Fly.
--Gary: Machamp can take on Sandslash, and Exeggutor has he doesn't pack Psychic. But that is it.
Additional Comments: Despite his strong power, Machamp is held back by his Speed and frailness. There's never really a point of the game where he dominates, and even the ones that he does fair well on, another Pokemon can easily do the job much better.
Here it is, in case you missed it:
Machamp: Low Tier
-Availability: Machamp is obtained through a traded Cubone, who is available at Pokemon Tower. So Mid-Game.
-Stats: Machamp has a huge Attack stat, but has rather average defenses and low Speed.
-Movepool: Mostly TM dependent, Rock Slide and Earthquake provide good coverage.
-Power: Due to his huge Attack stat, Machamp hits hard.
-Type: Fighting. In a game where Dark and Steel don't exist, and Poison types are omnipresent. Fighting isn't the best STAB to have.
-Matchups:
--Koga: His whole team packs Super Effective Psychic which takes Machamp down easily.
--Sabrina: Her Pokemon outspeed and pack Super Effective Psychic to take Machamp out.
--Blaine: Machamp can hit his Pokemon hard with Dig or Earthquake, but keep in mind all of his Pokemon outspeed Machamp and Machamp doesn't enjoy taking Fire moves. A Fire Blast burn will put a huge damper on Machamp's performance.
--Giovanni: Machamp can beat Persian due to fighting STAB, and Earthquake hits majority of his team for Super Effective damage. However, Giovanni's Nidos and Rhydon can take a hit and retaliate with their own offensive moves.
--Lorelei: Fighting is Super Effective on Ice, but Submission is a bad STAB move due to accuracy and recoil issues. Meanwhile, Machamp is worn down by Special Attacks.
--Bruno: Fighting verse Fighting, Machamp breaks even here if you are at similar levels.
--Agatha: Earthquake hits her team for Super Effective, while Rock Slide deals with Golbat. However, keep in mind her Pokemon are fast and her final Gengar knows Psychic.
--Lance: While Rock Slide is Super Effective against half his Pokemon, Machamp wont enjoy taking Special Attacks or Hyper Beam. Not to mention Aerodactyl has Super Effective STAB Fly.
--Gary: Machamp can take on Sandslash, and Exeggutor has he doesn't pack Psychic. But that is it.
Additional Comments: Despite his strong power, Machamp is held back by his Speed and frailness. There's never really a point of the game where he dominates, and even the ones that he does fair well on, another Pokemon can easily do the job much better.
Just posting to say that I'm fine for RB Bulbasaur to be in Top. Although I'd prefer it to go High, I realise this is a community project. As such, compromises have to be made. Otherwise, we could spend ages arguing over things that honestly aren't that big of a deal!
Awesome to see this updated by the way. But are Tauros and Zubat meant to be place outside their hide tags?
Awesome to see this updated by the way. But are Tauros and Zubat meant to be place outside their hide tags?
Bulbasaur can beat Brock if it's not level 13. I was able to essentially solo using Leech Seed, Growl, and a potion in the Nuzlocke I just started. Right now, I'm at Lt. Surge, and Ivysaur isn't very good against all the random Spearows, Pidgeys, and Nidorans all the other trainers use. I'd vote for high, but it definitely struggles in the early-mid game against the non-gym leaders.
It's actually not hard to get Bulbasaur to level 13 before Brock really, I think I did it after about 2 minutes of grinding after Viridian. Still, he can beat Brock fairly comfortably at lower levels with leech seed.
I think Bulbasaur should be the bottom of the Top Tier, especially after considering it. I've been playing through with him, and he's only ever had trouble when I fought Sabrina, and even then he was able to survive Kadabra's Psychic and KO fairly easily, losing out only to Alakazam. I'll report more as I play through.
I think Bulbasaur should be the bottom of the Top Tier, especially after considering it. I've been playing through with him, and he's only ever had trouble when I fought Sabrina, and even then he was able to survive Kadabra's Psychic and KO fairly easily, losing out only to Alakazam. I'll report more as I play through.
RB Bulbasaur is a top Poke, I don't see why it wouldn't be. It's definitely not inferior to Charizard or Blastoise.
Ok I know I said that I'm fine with RB Bulbasaur being Top, and I still am fine with it, but I thought I'll just clarify why I lean more towards High (I wasn't going to but people seem to keep discussing it so...).
Grass is resisted by so much stuff. Vine Whip and Razor Leaf are awesome if they aren't but there are many times where they are. Before you reach Body Slam, all of these are used by various trainers:
So yeah, then you reach Body Slam and teach it to Bulbasaur/Ivysaur (assuming it's available; if it isn't then Venusaur is significantly worse). It improves quite a bit as a result. But Body Slam doesn't change the fact that Venusaur struggles at more points in the game than I'm comfortable with. The absolute worst is Pokemon Tower, but Cycling Road is also horrible thanks to all of those bulky Poison types (at least it also has Machop/Machoke and Voltorb as Razor Leaf prey though). There's also those routes between Fuschia and Lavender that have all of those Bird Keepers and Bikers and Lasses/Beauties with Grass types, but it isn't as bad since the other non-grass resistant pokemon cancel it out a bit (not completely, but a bit).
I'm not denying that Venusaur can beat pretty much everything. So can lots of things. But in my experience, for higher level opponents that resist Grass, it can take multiple turns. It is particularly noticable early game, before Body Slam. Basically, I have trouble seeing how a pokemon that has to rely on weak Tackles early game to get around the many things that resist Vine Whip before becoming a pokemon that has underwhelming performance at certain points even with Body Slam can ever be Top tier.
Maybe it's my own fault for thinking this way though. Have I been using Bulbasaur incorrectly all this time? Other people seem to have had different experiences with Bulbasaur than me (or perhaps they have had the same experiences but are interpreting them differently), and if the popular opinion is "Bulbasaur is Top tier in RB", then it should be placed there. Just don't expect me to understand it.
Grass is resisted by so much stuff. Vine Whip and Razor Leaf are awesome if they aren't but there are many times where they are. Before you reach Body Slam, all of these are used by various trainers:
- Charmander
- Weedle
- Kakuna
- Caterpie
- Metapod
- Nidoran-M
- Nidoran-F
- Pidgey
- Ekans
- Spearow
- Zubat
- Grimer
- Koffing
- Pidgeotto
- Charmeleon
- Oddish
- Bellsprout
- Butterfree
So yeah, then you reach Body Slam and teach it to Bulbasaur/Ivysaur (assuming it's available; if it isn't then Venusaur is significantly worse). It improves quite a bit as a result. But Body Slam doesn't change the fact that Venusaur struggles at more points in the game than I'm comfortable with. The absolute worst is Pokemon Tower, but Cycling Road is also horrible thanks to all of those bulky Poison types (at least it also has Machop/Machoke and Voltorb as Razor Leaf prey though). There's also those routes between Fuschia and Lavender that have all of those Bird Keepers and Bikers and Lasses/Beauties with Grass types, but it isn't as bad since the other non-grass resistant pokemon cancel it out a bit (not completely, but a bit).
I'm not denying that Venusaur can beat pretty much everything. So can lots of things. But in my experience, for higher level opponents that resist Grass, it can take multiple turns. It is particularly noticable early game, before Body Slam. Basically, I have trouble seeing how a pokemon that has to rely on weak Tackles early game to get around the many things that resist Vine Whip before becoming a pokemon that has underwhelming performance at certain points even with Body Slam can ever be Top tier.
Maybe it's my own fault for thinking this way though. Have I been using Bulbasaur incorrectly all this time? Other people seem to have had different experiences with Bulbasaur than me (or perhaps they have had the same experiences but are interpreting them differently), and if the popular opinion is "Bulbasaur is Top tier in RB", then it should be placed there. Just don't expect me to understand it.
Random question for everyone; I've been following this thread and I haven't seen any mention of the day care. A lot of the debates between borderline tierings come down to discussions of how the Pokemon either comes underleveled (the starters in Yellow, for instance) or are too much of a pain to level up to usefulness that it doesn't fit in the idea of an efficiency run (Abra, Magikarp from the Mt Moon Pokecenter). But . . . it just occurred to me that all of the Yellow starters are given to you near Cerulean, which is also not far from where you catch Abra and can buy that Magikarp. If you snagged any of those, tossed them in the day care until Abra got to level 15, Magikarp to 19, etc . . . might that change any tierings?
I just want to point out that Misty is the strongest trainer in the entire game.
You're facing down Starmie, a top OU Pokemon with 115 Speed and 100 Special, not to mention a STAB 65 base power attack at a point in the game where practically no attacks with base power higher than 50 are available on anything (except Mega Punch / Mega Kick). Probably the only STAB attack you'll find before Misty with that kind of base power is Ratata's Hyper Fang. So you're facing down Starmie, who can blast through even Wartortle, laugh at Pikachu as it outspeeds and OHKOes with Death-beam, and instantly kills everything else no contest you've been likely to train at this point (lol, nidos). So you're almost forced to either:
a) Grind Wartortle / Gyarados to over level 23~ to overcome Misty with Bite (keep in mind Misty uses X-Defend and that Starmie's Crit rate for Tackle and Bubblebeam is high...)
b) Catch Belsprout / Oddish
Even if you go with route B, it means you're going to be raising up a Grass/Poison type anyway, and one that's crappier than Bulbasaur in pretty much every respect (outside getting Sleep Powder early, but honestly I'd rather have Razor Leaf / Body Slam in game). Furthermore, Belsprout / Oddish are going to be really underleveled-- they need to get to at least level 17, but more like 18 or 19 to comfortably beat Starmie. Keep in mind, this is the same point in the game where you're likely to be babying Abra if you want to go for the monster Alakazam on your team.
RB Ivysaur (at this point) is the only Pokemon that lets you get through Cerulean easily, and efficiently (experience wise), without raising and grinding new pokes just to beat Misty, who remember-- is the relative strongest trainer in the game.
No seriously, looking at it objectively, the only other trainer that comes close is Sabrina, but even so, Kadabra and Mr. Mime give you opportunities to seat up Amnesia with Snorlax, or you can mash through her easily enough with any physical sweeper you've raised to out pace Alakazam. Sabrina is a trainer that's easily prepared for without thinking that much, and all the other trainers in the game are easily handled when you've got a well developed team backing you up. Misty is the only point in the game where you're stuck thinking if you even can get access to what you need to beat her (well, Brock too I guess, but every starter can overcome him easily enough-- even Charmander's Ember will generally beat Brock). Furthermore, Sabrina, just like every other Gym Leader past Surge, isn't a forced battle-- you can continue on naturally with the story, moving around the map, beating rockets, gaining experience, raising new teammates (like Zapdos) until you feel you're ready to take her on. With Misty, you're stuck in Cerulean city (not even able to go backwards), with its limited Pokemon species and trainers, unable to progress, until you beat Misty. That is what really limits your options here.
So when you say 'Venusaur is ok, but it peaks at MISTY,' well that would be fine to say except that beating Misty is kinda sorta REALLY important...
I think alone is a huge push for RB Bulbasaur for top.
You're facing down Starmie, a top OU Pokemon with 115 Speed and 100 Special, not to mention a STAB 65 base power attack at a point in the game where practically no attacks with base power higher than 50 are available on anything (except Mega Punch / Mega Kick). Probably the only STAB attack you'll find before Misty with that kind of base power is Ratata's Hyper Fang. So you're facing down Starmie, who can blast through even Wartortle, laugh at Pikachu as it outspeeds and OHKOes with Death-beam, and instantly kills everything else no contest you've been likely to train at this point (lol, nidos). So you're almost forced to either:
a) Grind Wartortle / Gyarados to over level 23~ to overcome Misty with Bite (keep in mind Misty uses X-Defend and that Starmie's Crit rate for Tackle and Bubblebeam is high...)
b) Catch Belsprout / Oddish
Even if you go with route B, it means you're going to be raising up a Grass/Poison type anyway, and one that's crappier than Bulbasaur in pretty much every respect (outside getting Sleep Powder early, but honestly I'd rather have Razor Leaf / Body Slam in game). Furthermore, Belsprout / Oddish are going to be really underleveled-- they need to get to at least level 17, but more like 18 or 19 to comfortably beat Starmie. Keep in mind, this is the same point in the game where you're likely to be babying Abra if you want to go for the monster Alakazam on your team.
RB Ivysaur (at this point) is the only Pokemon that lets you get through Cerulean easily, and efficiently (experience wise), without raising and grinding new pokes just to beat Misty, who remember-- is the relative strongest trainer in the game.
No seriously, looking at it objectively, the only other trainer that comes close is Sabrina, but even so, Kadabra and Mr. Mime give you opportunities to seat up Amnesia with Snorlax, or you can mash through her easily enough with any physical sweeper you've raised to out pace Alakazam. Sabrina is a trainer that's easily prepared for without thinking that much, and all the other trainers in the game are easily handled when you've got a well developed team backing you up. Misty is the only point in the game where you're stuck thinking if you even can get access to what you need to beat her (well, Brock too I guess, but every starter can overcome him easily enough-- even Charmander's Ember will generally beat Brock). Furthermore, Sabrina, just like every other Gym Leader past Surge, isn't a forced battle-- you can continue on naturally with the story, moving around the map, beating rockets, gaining experience, raising new teammates (like Zapdos) until you feel you're ready to take her on. With Misty, you're stuck in Cerulean city (not even able to go backwards), with its limited Pokemon species and trainers, unable to progress, until you beat Misty. That is what really limits your options here.
So when you say 'Venusaur is ok, but it peaks at MISTY,' well that would be fine to say except that beating Misty is kinda sorta REALLY important...
I think alone is a huge push for RB Bulbasaur for top.
Hide tag thing fixed, thanks.
I agree Misty should weigh the heaviest of all gym leaders, but I'm not sure if Pikachu actually loses to Starmie like that. If she uses an X Defend on that Starmie every time on the first turn it is out and Pikachu can survive one Bubblebeam (doesn't seem out of reach), you should have a good shot at getting at least two Thundershocks and a Thunder Wave in. It should also be pointed out that Misty can wait until you have gone all the way to Bill, which gives you ample time to train up your Wartortle to L23. Also Bubblebeam and Tackle do absolutely nothing to Wartortle and you can anticipate a crit by using Potion/Super Potion liberally.
But yeah, she's definitely the hardest and the best chance for Pokemon to actually stand out.
I agree Misty should weigh the heaviest of all gym leaders, but I'm not sure if Pikachu actually loses to Starmie like that. If she uses an X Defend on that Starmie every time on the first turn it is out and Pikachu can survive one Bubblebeam (doesn't seem out of reach), you should have a good shot at getting at least two Thundershocks and a Thunder Wave in. It should also be pointed out that Misty can wait until you have gone all the way to Bill, which gives you ample time to train up your Wartortle to L23. Also Bubblebeam and Tackle do absolutely nothing to Wartortle and you can anticipate a crit by using Potion/Super Potion liberally.
But yeah, she's definitely the hardest and the best chance for Pokemon to actually stand out.
Pikachu can beat Starmie, although it struggles a bit if you are trying to kill Staryu at well.
I get that Bulbasaur is the best option for Misty (and yes, I agree that she is one of the strongest trainers relative to where she is encountered), but I guess it comes down to whether its worth having a pokemon with the problems Bulbasaur has (in my opinion) so you can easily get through Misty. I personally don't think so (not so much so as to put it in Top). I mean, is it really worth having to put up with Bulbasaur's mediocre performance on many routes/locations just so you can beat a trainer that can be beaten by other methods anyway?
EDIT: Also, just wanted to re-emphasize that Baubasaur is crappy on the 1st two trainer routes in the game (Varidian Forest and Route 3), in the sense that Bulbasaur can't finish most of the pokemon quickly with Vine Whip. Considering that you'll probably be using these to level up Bulbasaur to get ready for Misty, wouldn't the time taken to do that cancel out some of the time you save to beat Misty?
I get that Bulbasaur is the best option for Misty (and yes, I agree that she is one of the strongest trainers relative to where she is encountered), but I guess it comes down to whether its worth having a pokemon with the problems Bulbasaur has (in my opinion) so you can easily get through Misty. I personally don't think so (not so much so as to put it in Top). I mean, is it really worth having to put up with Bulbasaur's mediocre performance on many routes/locations just so you can beat a trainer that can be beaten by other methods anyway?
EDIT: Also, just wanted to re-emphasize that Baubasaur is crappy on the 1st two trainer routes in the game (Varidian Forest and Route 3), in the sense that Bulbasaur can't finish most of the pokemon quickly with Vine Whip. Considering that you'll probably be using these to level up Bulbasaur to get ready for Misty, wouldn't the time taken to do that cancel out some of the time you save to beat Misty?
Gyarados at Level 20 can take Misty, at least from when I did it he came up on top.
Bulbasaur is fine in Viridian Forest. Poison Sting hits neutrally (and is super weak anyway), and the poison immunity is a huge plus. Leech Seed + Growl is OK for beating random Pidgeys and such before they do too much damage on Route 3. Mt. Moon also has plenty of good Pokemon (Geodudes, Sandshrews, and a few Oddishes) to make grinding Bulbasaur fairly easy.
Sigh... I have already said that I'm aware that Bulbasaur can beat these things. It's just that it can't do it quickly enough for my liking.
Mt. Moon is definitely useful, though it is honestly a mixed bag. You have a Hiker and a few random things like Clefairy and some electric types you can beat quickly, but then there are also trainers with Bug types, Grass types and Poison types.
Also, I find it odd that you say that Leech Seed + Growl is "OK" against Pidgey and other grass resistant stuff, despite in your last post saying "Right now, I'm at Lt. Surge, and Ivysaur isn't very good against all the random Spearows, Pidgeys, and Nidorans all the other trainers use". How is it any different from the early routes? What makes Bulbasaur's performance against these things "ok" early game and "[not] very good" later on (especially considering that you could have Body Slam to at least deal quickly with the weaker Grass resistant things, if not the stronger ones)?
I'd actually rather have Bulbasaur than any other starter at the beginning, just because of its immunity to Poison. Yes you have to Tackle a few more turns against caterpies than if you could just Ember everything, but Bulbasaur will save you a bunch of trips to the Pokemon center with its poison immunity.
I don't get what's the big deal about killing things with Tackle anyway. The Nidorans (who are top) also are stuck with Tackle (and later Scratch, basically the same thing) at the start too, and they work just fine. If anything Bulbasaur grows faster than they do, hits harder (with Tackle, ironically), and has more bulk too. In the early training period, Bulbasaur isn't slower than anything but Charmander, and let's face it Charizard has late game problems (compared to something like Zapdos, Gyarados or Dewgong) just the same, and is much weaker against Brock and Misty (imo, the two most difficult gyms-- it all steam rolls from there).
Venusaur definitely belongs on the top level with Blastoise and Charizard. Don't forget about the boost it gets in rank here just from being a starter.
Back @Misty-- Yes, there is time for Wartortle to be trained to level 23 through the Bill quest if you need to go that route, and Gyarados of any shape/form kicks Misty's ass. Pikachu can do *something* to Misty (honestly, it's not a good bet-- Starmie's Special kind of lols at Thundershock, while your Special gets plowed by Bubblebeam). But, people have already bitched about Gyarados's grinding needs to the point where it was ranked mid, and Pikachu has even more problems late game than Venusaur (on top of being out-ranked by all its fellow electric types, where as Venusaur instead out-ranks every other Grass-type). Comparing it to Wartortle is just dumb, because Blastoise is also top rank, and there's no reason why Venusaur can't be too.
Yes the AI can be dumb and Tackle/X-Defend repeatedly. The AI can also be lame and SPAM Bubblebeam until your entire team is dead.
There's no getting around the fact that Ivysaur is the single easiest, and most secure way to defeat the most challenging gym leader in the game. Every other battle in the game is much easier to get through, and Venusaur comes as a starter and performs well overall. I don't see why this is even an issue. :|
I don't get what's the big deal about killing things with Tackle anyway. The Nidorans (who are top) also are stuck with Tackle (and later Scratch, basically the same thing) at the start too, and they work just fine. If anything Bulbasaur grows faster than they do, hits harder (with Tackle, ironically), and has more bulk too. In the early training period, Bulbasaur isn't slower than anything but Charmander, and let's face it Charizard has late game problems (compared to something like Zapdos, Gyarados or Dewgong) just the same, and is much weaker against Brock and Misty (imo, the two most difficult gyms-- it all steam rolls from there).
Venusaur definitely belongs on the top level with Blastoise and Charizard. Don't forget about the boost it gets in rank here just from being a starter.
Back @Misty-- Yes, there is time for Wartortle to be trained to level 23 through the Bill quest if you need to go that route, and Gyarados of any shape/form kicks Misty's ass. Pikachu can do *something* to Misty (honestly, it's not a good bet-- Starmie's Special kind of lols at Thundershock, while your Special gets plowed by Bubblebeam). But, people have already bitched about Gyarados's grinding needs to the point where it was ranked mid, and Pikachu has even more problems late game than Venusaur (on top of being out-ranked by all its fellow electric types, where as Venusaur instead out-ranks every other Grass-type). Comparing it to Wartortle is just dumb, because Blastoise is also top rank, and there's no reason why Venusaur can't be too.
Yes the AI can be dumb and Tackle/X-Defend repeatedly. The AI can also be lame and SPAM Bubblebeam until your entire team is dead.
There's no getting around the fact that Ivysaur is the single easiest, and most secure way to defeat the most challenging gym leader in the game. Every other battle in the game is much easier to get through, and Venusaur comes as a starter and performs well overall. I don't see why this is even an issue. :|
I noticed Garud was using the Growth + Mega Drain set, as opposed to most people using the Razor Leaf (RL ignores Growth due to the crits). I am kind of curious to test that out as well. Might do a lot better against Lorelei, as it'll recover from the Ice damage and hit her Pokemon for Super Effective.
OK /=/ good. I did like the fact that Bulbasaur was a bit more bulky than the Rattatas and Nidorans of the early game, but it would still take ~ half HP to KO a similarly leveled Pidgey. Fine if you're starving for EXP (or blundered into the first Rival battle thinking the Pidgey topped was lvl 6), but definitely not very good. If you need Bulbasaur to beat something, you usually can, but not without taking a bunch of damage. Due to the preponderance of Spearows and Zubats in the wild early game, you're essentially limited to leveling up Bulbasaur via trainers until Diglet's Cave, and since 3 of the most common Pokemon used by trainers resist Vine Whip, you have to either make many trips to the Pokemon Center or use something else.
I'll second the immunity to poison as a huge early game advantage, though. That was a lifesaver in my Nuzlocke. Especially against all those friggin' Oddishes and Bellsprouts.
Bulbasaur is great, and all, but I can't see it being Top tier when Squirtle and Charmander are just so much better in the early game. Have trouble with Misty? Grab an Oddish. Wartortle and Charmeleon 2HKO almost everything. Bulbasaur's special attack only has 10 pp, so it often has to 3HKO at best with Tackle. High tier, minimum, but I have a hard time justifying Top.
@ Chou Toshio: Nitpick, but Nidoran-M gets Horn Attack, not Scratch.
I don't think there is anything else I can say on RB Bulbasaur without repeating myself. I get the sense that everyone is aware of how it performs. Differences in opinion are only coming about because everyone is interpreting Bulbasaur's performance differently in regards to where it should be tiered.
Both sides have made good points. Poison immunity is a definite plus even if you aren't guaranteed to be poisoned at any point (just like how Misty isn't guaranteed to use X Defend), and even if you can buy Antidotes if you are that worried about it. I also agree that its performance isn't really any worse than a lot of the alternatives early game. I only bought up the early game stuff to prevent people from saying that it is awesome early game, because it isn't any better or worse than the other stuff (in my opinion).
But I can't get by the fact that Venusaur goes through its whole "either I can kill this quickly or I can't kill this quickly" phase for, you know, most of the game, and on pretty much every route. I think this is a large enough problem to just put it out of Top. Some people disagree and think it contributes "enough" to justify putting it in Top because it is also a starter that deals with the first gym leaders well. That's fine. There is no way that I'm going to make anyone change their mind if I haven't already.
So I'll just go back to what I said before and say that RB Bulbasaur should be tiered where the majority of people think it should be tiered. This is hard to tell considering that it's the same small group of people that are posting here, but I guess more people seem to prefer Top. So Top is where it stays.
I don't think there is anything else I can say on RB Bulbasaur without repeating myself. I get the sense that everyone is aware of how it performs. Differences in opinion are only coming about because everyone is interpreting Bulbasaur's performance differently in regards to where it should be tiered.
Both sides have made good points. Poison immunity is a definite plus even if you aren't guaranteed to be poisoned at any point (just like how Misty isn't guaranteed to use X Defend), and even if you can buy Antidotes if you are that worried about it. I also agree that its performance isn't really any worse than a lot of the alternatives early game. I only bought up the early game stuff to prevent people from saying that it is awesome early game, because it isn't any better or worse than the other stuff (in my opinion).
But I can't get by the fact that Venusaur goes through its whole "either I can kill this quickly or I can't kill this quickly" phase for, you know, most of the game, and on pretty much every route. I think this is a large enough problem to just put it out of Top. Some people disagree and think it contributes "enough" to justify putting it in Top because it is also a starter that deals with the first gym leaders well. That's fine. There is no way that I'm going to make anyone change their mind if I haven't already.
So I'll just go back to what I said before and say that RB Bulbasaur should be tiered where the majority of people think it should be tiered. This is hard to tell considering that it's the same small group of people that are posting here, but I guess more people seem to prefer Top. So Top is where it stays.
During the X Defend, you can ThunderWawe Starmie, preparing the sweep : Two Electric attacks and it's probably a win ... ?
TWaving Starmie is one thing. Having the Special to overcome Starmie's is another. Between Thundershock and Pikachu's meh-ish Special, i don't see it overcoming Starmie anytime soon (although on theory its still possible)
Starmie also 1-2hkos pikachu with bubblebeam, if it escapes parahax, its curtains for Pikachu.
- Status