Since Jamis361 mentioned only 3 votes this slate, and I confirmed that the number of votes equals the number of winners unless there is a tie for the lowest qualifying votes, it doesn’t make sense for us to make more than the tie win.So will the 2nd and 3rd place submissions not count as wins?
I am glad your openness to feedback allowed my suggestions. ;)Oh cool I won! ... No pun intended. (In case you don't get I won with an ice Mon)
But I'd just like to ask, now that voting is done, can we start submissions again?
Please keep the 600 BST total in mind (ahem Zangoose).
Pokémon: Zangoose
Typing: Normal / Fighting
Abilities: Adaptability / Intimidate / Tough Claws
Stats: 90 / 150 / 90 / 60 / 90 / 120 (630 BST)
New Moves: Earthquake, Extreme Speed, Gunk Shot, Focused Swipe
Custom Move Information (if applicable): Fighting-type, Physical, 90 BP, 100% Acc, 10 PP (max: 16)
Custom Move Description (what effects it has): 30% chance to lower the target's highest attacking stat.
Competitive (niche in Ubers): Zangoose finds a safe spot amongst the hostile environment that is known as Ubers as a fast physically-based glass cannon given its decent STAB combo, great physical attack stat, and fantastic coverage moves. Its vast pool of coverage moves lets it dispose of other threats, such as Xerneas, Marshadow, Arceus, and Mega Salamence. At the same time, Zangoose's new signature move, Focused Swipe, has a chance to lower the opponent's highest attacking stat, letting it screw up setup sweepers such as Xerneas. However, Zangoose's bulk is average at best, leaving it prone to being overwhelmed by stronger and faster pokemon such as Marshadow and Simisage; this also means that if Zangoose fails to KO a foe, it risks getting KOed or heavily weakened in return, making it reliant on Focused Swipe's stat drops and significant hazard-stacking, making it hard to fit on a team.
Reserving BUFFalant and Ursaring next.
Well, since you’ve decided to resub, I’m not really going to hold back this time. Ignoring the fact that you modified pre-existing mechanics (something that has been disallowed by both G-Luke and myself), you need to understand how ridiculously broken this Pokémon is. I will demonstrate with a few calcs:I may not have won this time, but surely with enough persistence the rodent will win out! (In case you didn't get it, I'm submitting Pikachu again).
Pokémon: Pikachu
Type: Electric
Abilities: Static/Lightning Rod/Aim for the Horn!
Aim for the Horn!: This Pokemon's Electric-type moves can affect Ground-type Pokemon, by aiming for the horn (even if they don't have a horn).
Stats: 70/95/70/90/70/130 (BST: 525)
New Moves: Zippy Zap, Floaty Fall, Splishy Splash (Partner Pikachu's Moves from Let's Go), Fire Punch, All Cosplay Pikachu Moves (Icicle Crash, Flying Press, Electric Terrain, Draining Kiss, Meteor Mash), Focus Blast
Updated Move: Volt Tackle - 120 BP, 95 Accuracy, Physical, Electric-type. 10 PP. Ignores the opponent's ability. Reduces the user's Defense and Special Defense by 1 stage upon use.
Updated Item: Light Ball- Aside from its normal effects of doubling Pikachu's Attack and Special Attack, cannot be removed if held by Pikachu.
Competitive (Niche in Ubers): The main issues Pikachu really faced was its low bulk and fairly poor speed. This fixes that (As well as giving Pikachu's attacks some actual kick to them even amongst Ubers), mostly by actually making Pikachu really fast (Y'know, as it's depicted in the anime). Pikachu's Zippy Zap bolstered by the Light Ball may be amongst the strongest priority moves in the game (and on top of that, it's +2 priority meaning it'll even outpace Arceus' Extreme Speed). Though Pikachu's main niche is giving Lugia and Ho-Oh a massive headache with either devastatingly powerful Volt Tackles (Which has been updated to an Electric-type Close Combat that also ignores abilities, instead just being Stronger Wild Charge) or picking them off with Zippy Zap. Zippy Zap can also be helpful in picking off weakened Arceus or Xerneas, while also making Mega Gengar think twice about trying to trap the rodent (Though to be fair Volt Tackle and Knock Off do a perfectly good job of that anyway). Floaty Fall gives Uberchu wide neutral coverage. Fire Punch gives Pikachuchu an option against Pokemon like Ferrothorn, Genesect, and Dusk Mane Necrozma. Cosplay Pikachu's moves are also consolidated into Pikachu, giving it consistent access to Icicle Crash to deal with MegaMence, Rayquaza and Zygarde-Complete (if Volt Tackle should prove insufficient for the former two), Flying Press to muscle through Kyurem-White while also being more threatening than Fire Punch against Mega Lucario, and Meteor Mash to utterly DEMOLISH Xerneas if it attempts to set up. Pikachu can also run Special Sets, using Hidden Power Fire to chunk the steels (HP Ice is mostly unnecessary, as most Dragons in Ubers don't resist Electric [or are not weak to Ice to begin with- and Icicle Crash is strong enough to get the job done even without investment]), Signal Beam to make Mewtwo rue the day it was born, Splishy Splash as Pikachu's own alternative to Scald (Except it threatens Paralysis, not Burns), Draining Kiss to MAYBE threaten an Electric-resistant Dragon, Grass Knot to ruin the Primals, and of course if all else fails it has STAB Thunderbolt and Volt Switch. Focus Blast lets Uberchu rip Dialga a new one.
Pikachu's new ability, Aim for the Horn!, is a reference to exactly what you'd think it'd be. This allows Pikachu to rain down thundering death on foolish Ground types who believed they would otherwise be safe, such as pesky Rhyperiors, or on a more serious note, Primal Groudons, meaning they cannot safely switch in on Pikachu using Volt Tackle, Zippy Zap or Thunderbolt. However, this ONLY works on Ground-types, and does not let Pikachuchu bypass other resistances (or ability-based immunities).
Pikachu is still totally reliant on its Light Ball, but it now has offensive prowess rivalling Deoxys-Attack, with a bit more bulk behind it, allowing it to barely take a single neutral hit in a pinch, but getting Pikachuchu in is going to be its biggest issue. It's a glass cannon best suited to revenge killing. It also can't really do much to Giratina save for maybe Knock Off. It also suffers from serious 4MSS, as Pikachu cannot deal with Dialga without Focus Blast or Brick Break, Mewtwo is a relatively safe switch-in against Pikachu that lack Signal Beam, though Volt Tackle and Knock Off also sting, Xerneas beats out all Special Pikachu sets, mostly only fearing Volt Tackle and Meteor Mash (or Zippy Zap if it's low), Necrozma-Dusk Mane can Ultra Burst to tank a Volt Tackle then reduce Pikachu to a pile of ashes with its Photon Geyser, Lunala can take a hit as Shadow Shield is not ignored by Volt Tackle and then reply back with a nasty Moongeist Beam, and so on.
To acknowledge rebalancing issues by Jamis361I may not have won this time, but surely with enough persistence the rodent will win out! (In case you didn't get it, I'm submitting Pikachu again).
Pokémon: Pikachu
Type: Electric
Abilities: Static/Lightning Rod/Aim for the Horn!
Aim for the Horn!: This Pokemon's Electric-type moves can affect Ground-type Pokemon, by aiming for the horn (even if they don't have a horn).
Stats: 70/95/70/90/70/130 (BST: 525)
New Moves: Zippy Zap, Floaty Fall, Splishy Splash (Partner Pikachu's Moves from Let's Go), Fire Punch, All Cosplay Pikachu Moves (Icicle Crash, Flying Press, Electric Terrain, Draining Kiss, Meteor Mash), Focus Blast
Updated Move: Volt Tackle - 120 BP, 95 Accuracy, Physical, Electric-type. 10 PP. Ignores the opponent's ability. Reduces the user's Defense and Special Defense by 1 stage upon use.
Updated Item: Light Ball- Aside from its normal effects of doubling Pikachu's Attack and Special Attack, cannot be removed if held by Pikachu.
Competitive (Niche in Ubers): The main issues Pikachu really faced was its low bulk and fairly poor speed. This fixes that (As well as giving Pikachu's attacks some actual kick to them even amongst Ubers), mostly by actually making Pikachu really fast (Y'know, as it's depicted in the anime). Pikachu's Zippy Zap bolstered by the Light Ball may be amongst the strongest priority moves in the game (and on top of that, it's +2 priority meaning it'll even outpace Arceus' Extreme Speed). Though Pikachu's main niche is giving Lugia and Ho-Oh a massive headache with either devastatingly powerful Volt Tackles (Which has been updated to an Electric-type Close Combat that also ignores abilities, instead just being Stronger Wild Charge) or picking them off with Zippy Zap. Zippy Zap can also be helpful in picking off weakened Arceus or Xerneas, while also making Mega Gengar think twice about trying to trap the rodent (Though to be fair Volt Tackle and Knock Off do a perfectly good job of that anyway). Floaty Fall gives Uberchu wide neutral coverage. Fire Punch gives Pikachuchu an option against Pokemon like Ferrothorn, Genesect, and Dusk Mane Necrozma. Cosplay Pikachu's moves are also consolidated into Pikachu, giving it consistent access to Icicle Crash to deal with MegaMence, Rayquaza and Zygarde-Complete (if Volt Tackle should prove insufficient for the former two), Flying Press to muscle through Kyurem-White while also being more threatening than Fire Punch against Mega Lucario, and Meteor Mash to utterly DEMOLISH Xerneas if it attempts to set up. Pikachu can also run Special Sets, using Hidden Power Fire to chunk the steels (HP Ice is mostly unnecessary, as most Dragons in Ubers don't resist Electric [or are not weak to Ice to begin with- and Icicle Crash is strong enough to get the job done even without investment]), Signal Beam to make Mewtwo rue the day it was born, Splishy Splash as Pikachu's own alternative to Scald (Except it threatens Paralysis, not Burns), Draining Kiss to MAYBE threaten an Electric-resistant Dragon, Grass Knot to ruin the Primals, and of course if all else fails it has STAB Thunderbolt and Volt Switch. Focus Blast lets Uberchu rip Dialga a new one.
Pikachu's new ability, Aim for the Horn!, is a reference to exactly what you'd think it'd be. This allows Pikachu to rain down thundering death on foolish Ground types who believed they would otherwise be safe, such as pesky Rhyperiors, or on a more serious note, Primal Groudons, meaning they cannot safely switch in on Pikachu using Volt Tackle, Zippy Zap or Thunderbolt. However, this ONLY works on Ground-types, and does not let Pikachuchu bypass other resistances (or ability-based immunities).
Pikachu is still totally reliant on its Light Ball, but it now has offensive prowess rivalling Deoxys-Attack, with a bit more bulk behind it, allowing it to barely take a single neutral hit in a pinch, but getting Pikachuchu in is going to be its biggest issue. It's a glass cannon best suited to revenge killing. It also can't really do much to Giratina save for maybe Knock Off. It also suffers from serious 4MSS, as Pikachu cannot deal with Dialga without Focus Blast or Brick Break, Mewtwo is a relatively safe switch-in against Pikachu that lack Signal Beam, though Volt Tackle and Knock Off also sting, Xerneas beats out all Special Pikachu sets, mostly only fearing Volt Tackle and Meteor Mash (or Zippy Zap if it's low), Necrozma-Dusk Mane can Ultra Burst to tank a Volt Tackle then reduce Pikachu to a pile of ashes with its Photon Geyser, Lunala can take a hit as Shadow Shield is not ignored by Volt Tackle and then reply back with a nasty Moongeist Beam, and so on.
I feel that drawback of this is WAY too steep, as it means that Pikachu just straight-up loses to 'mons that it shouldn't (Like, for instance, it wouldn't be able to crush Yveltal on the switch due to the lost SE hit, meaning it loses the ability to check Yveltal for very little benefit, to say nothing about being unable to do ANYTHING to Lugia or Ho-Oh any more without Nasty Plot (which I'll go into in a minute as to why THAT's not worth running). And for what? The ability to hit Dialga, Giratina and Ultra Necrozma Neutrally?).Mascot Mouse- All of the user’s Electric Attacks are neutral, unless the foe is immune - no Pokémon is weak, or resistant.
THAT change to stats wouldn't even bring Pikachu into PU, let alone Ubers, Because it's still too frail and too slow. It's basically Deoxys-A except it loses loads of speed for only a bit more attack, and it doesn't have anywhere near as good coverage.Make Pikachu 60 HP / 70 Atk / 60 Def / 70 SpA / 60 Def / 91 Spe
This I disagree with because Pikachu's special coverage, even with all of the cosplay attacks (of which only one is special), is, well, horribly insufficient for dealing with Ubers, to say the least. It can get Electric, Grass, Water, Fairy, Bug and a Hidden Power. This is unlike Darkrai, the other Nasty Plot 'mon, who is not only blazing fast, but actually has good coverage to hit the Ubers metagame (Dark Pulse alone hits multiple of the top threats such as Necrozma-Dusk Mane and Giratina, plus the rare Lunala).having access to Nasty Plot makes Pikachu very powerful.
That seems fair. Zippy Zap would be the main one as it gives Pikachu another form of powerful priority, trying to help get around its poor speed. Splishy Splash is basically Surf, and Floaty Fall's coverage doesn't really warrant enough use.Since Let’s Go Pikachu and Eevee don’t correlate with Ultra Sun and Moon, the main series games, you can only bring 1 move from those Pikachu Signature Attacks (Zippy Zap, Floaty Fall, OR Splishy Splash)
The main change I'd make to Light Ball is just make it so that it can't be removed if held by Pikachu, so that Pikachu isn't totally screwed against 'mons that can remove items.Pikachu already has a key item in Light Ball, so we don’t really need to give it another.
He already did it.Hey Jamis361, you forgot to bold the mons that won.
They were not bolded at the time of that messageHe already did it.
RIght. Sorry for the misunderstandings.They were not bolded at the time of that message
I feel that drawback of this is WAY too steep, as it means that Pikachu just straight-up loses to 'mons that it shouldn't (Like, for instance, it wouldn't be able to crush Yveltal on the switch due to the lost SE hit, meaning it loses the ability to check Yveltal for very little benefit, to say nothing about being unable to do ANYTHING to Lugia or Ho-Oh any more without Nasty Plot (which I'll go into in a minute as to why THAT's not worth running). And for what? The ability to hit Dialga, Giratina and Ultra Necrozma Neutrally?).
THAT change to stats wouldn't even bring Pikachu into PU, let alone Ubers, Because it's still too frail and too slow. It's basically Deoxys-A except it loses loads of speed for only a bit more attack, and it doesn't have anywhere near as good coverage.
This I disagree with because Pikachu's special coverage, even with all of the cosplay attacks (of which only one is special), is, well, horribly insufficient for dealing with Ubers, to say the least. It can get Electric, Grass, Water, Fairy, Bug and a Hidden Power. This is unlike Darkrai, the other Nasty Plot 'mon, who is not only blazing fast, but actually has good coverage to hit the Ubers metagame (Dark Pulse alone hits multiple of the top threats such as Necrozma-Dusk Mane and Giratina, plus the rare Lunala).
Amongst those, Bug-type coverage is borderline useless in Ubers due to the omnipresence of Primal Groudon, Giratina and many other bug-resistant 'mons (The only notable 'mon it would hit effectively is Mewtwo who even my original Pikachu slate has no right facing 1-on-1 anyway, mostly owing to Dusk-Mane's high bulk meaning even with Light Ball), Draining Kiss is far too weak to be effective even against MegaMence, Surf is useless against the only 'mon it WOULD hit super effectively, that being Primal Groudon, because Desolate Land stuffs that. Grass Knot doesn't really hit much of the Metagame effectively either save for PDon (who, again, this nerfed Pikachu has no right facing), and Electric is hard-walled by half the metagame (Plus again, Primal Groudon is everywhere), hence why Zekrom is rarely if ever seen.
That seems fair. Zippy Zap would be the main one as it gives Pikachu another form of powerful priority, trying to help get around its poor speed. Splishy Splash is basically Surf, and Floaty Fall's coverage doesn't really warrant enough use.
The main change I'd make to Light Ball is just make it so that it can't be removed if held by Pikachu, so that Pikachu isn't totally screwed against 'mons that can remove items.
Ultimately, balancing Pikachu is a big tight-rope act, as if we go too far it becomes broken (like what I did), but if we don't go far enough (like what you did), it remains Untiered-level trash.
Ultimately, I feel your ideas don't really solve the problem as to why Pikachu is Untiered to begin with: It's slow, frail and has bad coverage issues, even with the special moves from Cosplay Pikachu AND all three of Let's Go's Partner Pikachu moves. A unique item really doesn't change that, nor do the Unique Z-Moves (Which Pikachu should NEVER use).
Um, Pikachu's only advantage over Darkrai in this case is the ability to go mixed. Darkrai gets Nasty Plot as well, and is a much better user due to A: being MUCH faster, B: having MUCH better bulk that actually facilitiates being able to take a decently powerful neutral hit, and C: Dark-type STAB is MUCH better in Ubers than Electric STAB, because Dark-type STAB hits common threats Super-effectively while not being completely worthless against the single most common Pokemon in the entire tier.Let’s review the stats, as the advantage over Darkrai, and others includes a boosting move + mixed offense.
Sadly, no. Pikachu is always going to get Hard-walled by something in Ubers if it runs this set, mostly owing to one thing: The most common Pokemon in the Uber Tier (and widely considered the best) is Primal Groudon. If it lacks Grass Knot, PDon walls it hard, and given PDon's omnipresence in Ubers, that completely invalidates any choice of coverage move that's not named Grass Knot, as none of its special coverage otherwise will put a notable dent in it, even with the Light Ball, unless Pikachu is allowed the opportunity to set up (And it can't even reliably do this against the least powerful attacker in the tier, Lugia, as Lugia often carries Psychic which, even with 0 investment, will absolutely mutiliate the mouse given its bulk is only marginally better than Deoxys-A, and Lugia's faster so switching in and Encoring it isn't an option). This means that Pikachu gets invalidated by a myriad of other Pokemon including Zygarde-C, Necrozma-DM, most Arceus Forms but especially Dragon and Grass, and so on. I really can't overstate how much Primal Groudon's presence really hurts Pikachu here.Encore, Nasty Plot, Thunderbolt, and another coverage move allows Pikachu to Wall break.
I mean my Lapras, it's HUGE Primal Groudon bait, as well as Primal Kyogre bait and Dusk Mane Necrozma bait. However, I made up for it by allowing it to steam the game if those three was to be taken out. In fact if anything, alot of my submissions work like this: Make em able to obliterate many things in ubers, but make up for it via making them Primal Groudon bait, and some others. Exception is Beyheeyem, as it would do crazy damage to it and such, but cannot take a hit from nearly anything. Not just Lapras either, but I don't want to get real real deep. So just being Primal Groudon bait alone won't completely ruin it as long as you have ways to beat other important stuff.Just gonna address two things...
Um, Pikachu's only advantage over Darkrai in this case is the ability to go mixed. Darkrai gets Nasty Plot as well, and is a much better user due to A: being MUCH faster, B: having better bulk, and C: Dark-type STAB is MUCH better in Ubers than Electric STAB, because Dark-type STAB hits common threats Super-effectively while not being completely worthless against the single most common Pokemon in the entire tier.
Sadly, no. Pikachu is always going to get Hard-walled by something in Ubers if it runs this set, mostly owing to one thing: The most common Pokemon in the Uber Tier (and widely considered the best) is Primal Groudon. If it lacks Grass Knot, PDon walls it hard, and given PDon's omnipresence in Ubers, that completely invalidates any choice of coverage move that's not named Grass Knot, as none of its special coverage otherwise will put a notable dent in it, even with the Light Ball, unless Pikachu is allowed the opportunity to set up (And it can't even reliably do this against the least powerful attacker in the tier, Lugia, as Lugia sometimes carries Psychic which, even with 0 investment, will absolutely mutiliate the mouse given its bulk is only marginally better than Deoxys-A). This means that Pikachu gets invalidated by a myriad of other Pokemon including Zygarde-C, Necrozma-DM, most Arceus Forms but especially Dragon and Grass, and so on. I really can't overstate how much Primal Groudon's presence really hurts Pikachu here.
Ultimately, though, this is more a statement about the state of Ubers rather than anything about Pikachu itself: Being an Electric-type is an enormous liability unless you have SOMETHING to reliably beat Primal Groudon. This is why you pretty much never see anybody use Zekrom in Ubers nowadays: Zekrom really can't do anything to PDon. (Speaking of Zekrom, that's another 'mon of the many that completely invalidates this Pikachu).
This is pretty much why I made my Pikachu submission as strong as it was: Electric is a very bad typing in Ubers due to PDon being everywhere. The only way that would ever change is in the extremely unlikely event that Primal Groudon gets banned to Anything Goes.
Problem is this new Pikachu doesn't even do that. Electric is a bad typing in Ubers due to dragons running around everywhere (And PDon means the Wallbreaker set isn't even a good wallbreaker because it FORCES the use of Grass Knot to not completely waste Nasty Plot if PDon switches in- and that's assuming Pikachu ever gets off a Nasty Plot against something it can threaten to begin with, which should never, EVER happen if the opponent has any idea of how to play competitively), and it has no right facing most Uber Pokemon. It can't even reliably switch in on Lugia, for crying out loud! Y'know, the most passive Pokemon in the tier? If Lugia uses Psychic on Pikachu as it switches in, Pikachu loses 100% of the time (And Lugia's Psychic is just about the only attacking move it can ever hope to take aside from Mega Luc's Bullet Punch- and this Pikachu has no right ever appearing before Mega Luc to begin with, as Mega Luc is faster and can easily revenge it even in the astronomically unlikely event that it does get a Nasty Plot up). Pikachu needs immediate and explosive power to make up for the fact that any solid hit can and will OHKO it. Pikachu's lack of bulk means relying on ANY form of set-up is immediately out of the question. The only way I could see this Pikachu working is on gimmicky Baton Pass teams.I mean my Lapras, it's HUGE Primal Groudon bait, as well as Primal Kyogre bait and Dusk Mane Necrozma bait. However, I made up for it by allowing it to steam the game if those three was to be taken out. In fact if anything, alot of my submissions work like this: Make em able to obliterate many things in ubers, but make up for it via making them Primal Groudon bait, and some others. Exception is Beyheeyem, as it would do crazy damage to it and such, but cannot take a hit from nearly anything. Not just Lapras either, but I don't wan to get real real deep. So just being Primal Groudon bait alone won't completely ruin it as long as you have ways to beat other important stuff.
Ah my bad... Yeah they nerfed it, but I think they should've nerfed it less hard now that you think about it. Like maybe just get rid of the ability to use every cosplay and starter pika move, but make it to where you can use one of them. That alone was all the needs it needed to be busted but not so busted in my opinion.Problem is this new Pikachu doesn't even do that. Electric is a bad typing in Ubers due to dragons running around everywhere (And PDon means the Wallbreaker set isn't even a good wallbreaker because it FORCES the use of Grass Knot to not completely waste Nasty Plot, and it has no right facing most Uber Pokemon. It can't even reliably switch in on Lugia, for crying out loud! Y'know, the most passive Pokemon in the tier? If Lugia uses Psychic on Pikachu as it switches in, Pikachu loses 100% of the time (And Lugia's Psychic is just about the only attacking move it can ever hope to take aside from Mega Luc's Bullet Punch- and this Pikachu has no right ever appearing before Mega Luc to begin with, as Mega Luc is faster and can easily revenge it even in the event that it does get a Nasty Plot up). Pikachu needs immediate and explosive power to make up for the fact that any solid hit can and will OHKO it.
So many common Uber Pokemon counter this Pikachu that it's not funny.