But locking yourself into a damaging move vs Wynaut isnt much better, is it? So whether you choose an offensive move or a status move, you are forced into a bad situation.
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
Metagame Metagame Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Coconut
- Start date
Kingler12345
I don’t know if you misread but I never once said blanket trapping was bad. I never even mentioned Diglett. Literally the other mon mentioned in my post, wynaut, is an example of how trapping can be balanced.
I’m solely focusing on Trapinch right now, but if Diglett proves to be a problem I’ll address that too. Right now, Diglett is more threatening as a fast offensive mon than a trapper right now because idt it can trap very much consistently from what I’ve seen. Pinch, on the other hand, can. You can say it’s a different meta, and while this is true, Pinch’s function hasn’t changed at all. It traps strong defensive options for strong offensive mons. Again, if anything, I think Pinch has gotten slightly better with first impression and the pool of mons being hyper focused around mons like Onix, Ferro, and Munchlax to help check strong threats. My thoughts are fairly equally aligned with what BurntZebra has been arguing.
I don’t know if you misread but I never once said blanket trapping was bad. I never even mentioned Diglett. Literally the other mon mentioned in my post, wynaut, is an example of how trapping can be balanced.
I’m solely focusing on Trapinch right now, but if Diglett proves to be a problem I’ll address that too. Right now, Diglett is more threatening as a fast offensive mon than a trapper right now because idt it can trap very much consistently from what I’ve seen. Pinch, on the other hand, can. You can say it’s a different meta, and while this is true, Pinch’s function hasn’t changed at all. It traps strong defensive options for strong offensive mons. Again, if anything, I think Pinch has gotten slightly better with first impression and the pool of mons being hyper focused around mons like Onix, Ferro, and Munchlax to help check strong threats. My thoughts are fairly equally aligned with what BurntZebra has been arguing.
Is Gen VI the platonic ideal of Little Cup or something? It seems like with the introduction of new generations, the LC council takes an express train to eliminating anything just a little too powerful or anything that differentiates itself from the ORAS meta too much in some way.
The decision making seems a little top-heavy - and it’s true you’d want the most informed and knowledgeable players in charge of making the decisions - it seems like when the council nominates something for a suspect tests, they have their minds made up on the broken-ness of it already.
The decision making seems a little top-heavy - and it’s true you’d want the most informed and knowledgeable players in charge of making the decisions - it seems like when the council nominates something for a suspect tests, they have their minds made up on the broken-ness of it already.
Drifloon: Ban
This mon is pretty oppressing to play against due to the plethora of sets and ways to bypass its checks and counters. 17 Speed and decent bulk allows it to set up Substitute and boost with CM on a lot of the slower mons in the meta. The rise of T-spikes usage and the lack of a T-spikes absorber, aside from Mareanie (that can be trapped), really favors Drifloon by allowing it to spam empowered hexes. Although I do think that Drifloon has 4 Moveslot Syndrome, it is hard for teams to prepare for an exact set. You have access to coverage in Weather Ball (in Sun) and Tbolt to hit Vullaby. You have utility in Wisp to cripple Vull, Pawn, and Onix, and Thief to cripple Munchlax. Drifloon offers both offensive presence and defensive utility at an amazing level and probably deserves a ban.
Trapinch: Do Not Ban (at least for now)
Here’s the unpopular take. I would actually like to see a meta with Trapinch without significantly overpowered offensive threats, notably Drifloon and Cutiefly. These two mons contribute significantly to the notion that Trapinch trapping is broken and oppressive. I compare the Trapinch scenario to the Cherubi scenario. It was ultimately the sweeper, not the enabler, that broke the archetype. For offense, although Trapinch give the opportunity for Drifloon and Cutiefly to dominate, the inherent problem lies within the two mons being too good for the meta. Fairy STAB from Cutiefly is extremely powerful when there are literally like 3 mons that can check it in the metagame. As for Drifloon, you already know what it can do. To condense my argument: Trapinch isn’t broken when there are no offensive threats that can abuse trapping to a severe degree. The inherent problem with trapping lies within the abusers themselves.
To cap it off, I believe Drifloon should be banned and Trapinch should stay. The suspect order i am hoping for would be like Drifloon > Cutiefly > Trapinch.
P.S. I am ready to get flamed for the Trapinch hot take.
This mon is pretty oppressing to play against due to the plethora of sets and ways to bypass its checks and counters. 17 Speed and decent bulk allows it to set up Substitute and boost with CM on a lot of the slower mons in the meta. The rise of T-spikes usage and the lack of a T-spikes absorber, aside from Mareanie (that can be trapped), really favors Drifloon by allowing it to spam empowered hexes. Although I do think that Drifloon has 4 Moveslot Syndrome, it is hard for teams to prepare for an exact set. You have access to coverage in Weather Ball (in Sun) and Tbolt to hit Vullaby. You have utility in Wisp to cripple Vull, Pawn, and Onix, and Thief to cripple Munchlax. Drifloon offers both offensive presence and defensive utility at an amazing level and probably deserves a ban.
Trapinch: Do Not Ban (at least for now)
Here’s the unpopular take. I would actually like to see a meta with Trapinch without significantly overpowered offensive threats, notably Drifloon and Cutiefly. These two mons contribute significantly to the notion that Trapinch trapping is broken and oppressive. I compare the Trapinch scenario to the Cherubi scenario. It was ultimately the sweeper, not the enabler, that broke the archetype. For offense, although Trapinch give the opportunity for Drifloon and Cutiefly to dominate, the inherent problem lies within the two mons being too good for the meta. Fairy STAB from Cutiefly is extremely powerful when there are literally like 3 mons that can check it in the metagame. As for Drifloon, you already know what it can do. To condense my argument: Trapinch isn’t broken when there are no offensive threats that can abuse trapping to a severe degree. The inherent problem with trapping lies within the abusers themselves.
To cap it off, I believe Drifloon should be banned and Trapinch should stay. The suspect order i am hoping for would be like Drifloon > Cutiefly > Trapinch.
P.S. I am ready to get flamed for the Trapinch hot take.
fatty
This is the part of your post I'm referring to; the historical significance of trapping and pinch, which really means past suspects for trappers, has no bearing on what we should be doing now. Even if you're not saying blanket trapping is bad, you're conflating the tier's past problems with one trapper in the current metagame, which really feels like it has no bearing in real terms. I think Diglett does a fine job of trapping Pawn and Onix (it's faster and kills them), but that's really besides the point.
I mean, sure, but you have to consider whether Wynaut actually beats the threat in front of it. Wynaut needs to come in, Encore, and then Counter/Mirror Coat to guarantee a kill; that's three possible hits it can be taking, and a lot of stuff can KO it. I think my larger point was that I'm not sure exactly what scenarios you're referring to where you can get Trapinch in using Wynaut, and why it's worth using Wynaut over something else on your team in the first place (pinch can trap stuff fine on its own imo).
Vulpix (F) @ Eject Pack
Ability: Drought
Level: 5
EVs: 52 HP / 196 SpA / 236 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Overheat
- Energy Ball
- Flamethrower
- Will-O-Wisp
Diglett (F) @ Life Orb
Ability: Arena Trap
Level: 5
EVs: 36 HP / 236 Atk / 236 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
- Sucker Punch
Ability: Drought
Level: 5
EVs: 52 HP / 196 SpA / 236 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Overheat
- Energy Ball
- Flamethrower
- Will-O-Wisp
Diglett (F) @ Life Orb
Ability: Arena Trap
Level: 5
EVs: 36 HP / 236 Atk / 236 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
- Sucker Punch
Last edited:
Is there any real argument to keeping Drifloon?
Drifloon is a Pokemon that has a variety of equally good sets and options available to it. It has Wow Thief sets to fuck up your Munchlax or other walls, it has CM Hex sets to absolutely blow through most balance teams with one layer of Tspikes, traditional Acro sets to late game clean, utility options in Hypnosis, Destiny Bond, Defog. It can be tailored to a team and is almost always a useful member of a team. The variety of the moves it can run and spreads it can run mean that there is almost no surefire way to actually know what a set entails.
Now I'm all for variety. NP Vullaby is a cool Pokemon, but something like that still has similar counters to it's sets and has lots of intuitive counterplay to it. Drifloon has a specific set of checks that all change depending on set reveals or Unburden boosts. You think your Diglett or Wingull can revenge it, until it has an Unburden boost and suddenly it can't. You think Munchlax is safe until you get your Berry Juice stolen, or you have your Pawniard burnt while Drif takes 30-40%, or your Pawniard eats a Weather Ball.
I don't think that banning Arena Trap really solves the problem. I think it would be interesting to see a trapperless metagame to see what things start evolving to handle Drifloon, or Vullaby, or whatever else people have a bone to pick with, but ultimately I think this is a Drifloon problem. The things that Drifloon is checked by still get fucked up anyway by the selection of sets Drifloon can pick from, ultimately allowing Drif to pick what it wants to be boned by. Mareanie starts losing to CM Thunderbolt sets, Onix gets boned by WoW Thief sets, and takes hefty chunks from Hex Tspikes; Munchlax doesn't want to take a WoW or a Thief, Pawniard is better handled without Trapinch but ultimately Drifloon still can see itself bopping the Pawniard or at the very least trading a functional 1 for 1.
Ultimately I think the issue with Drifloon is utility. It just offers too much utility with very little drawbacks. The chances of it blasting through teams is fairly high, creating a matchup issue in preparing for the Floon set that you think is going to be used by your opponent, and at worst it severely disrupts your team through spreading burns, stealing items, and an overall nuisance. Trapinch and Diglett both help Drifloon, for sure, and enable it in some ways but it's ultimately problems inherent in Floon's design. The bulk it offers, the variety it offers, the sweeping potential combined with the splashability of its usage lead me to think this is something the tier should look at anyway, regardless of targeting trapping first or not. In a way, I think it's similar to Swirlix a bit. Swirlix was enabled by things like Gothita, which could take out things like Meditite or Foongus or Slowpoke and have tailored sets (CM CG, CM 3 Atk, BD, variety of coverage moves allowing it to pick its counters), but the issue was resolutely with Swirlix rather than the enabler. The enabler just made them stronger / more reliable.
I would be interested in talking more about trapping though. While I have often historically been vehemently anti-trapping, I do think it is in a much healthier state in this meta. Things are much bulkier, trapping involves much more thought process involved now. Trapinch in particular is just set up on / taken advantage of by so many Pokemon. I do think it's easy to overwhelm / take advantage of Trapinch if you keep it in mind, as the things that Trapinch traditionally beat can often beat it too. Giga Drain Ferroseed, +1 Curse Lax, DDance Onix, Mareanie. It gets taken advantage of by, lol, Drifloon, as well as Corphish, Chinchou, Eject Pack Vulpix, Eject Pack Farfetch, Wingull, Cutiefly (rslide-less). I think a lot of tech will evolve to allow more play against Trapinch and Diglett. In particular I think eject pack is a really cool tech to fuck with the momentum Trapinch sucks, its tradeoff is a lot more pronounced now than trapping has been in previous generations (since Shed Shell is, ultimately, very unviable).
Drifloon is a Pokemon that has a variety of equally good sets and options available to it. It has Wow Thief sets to fuck up your Munchlax or other walls, it has CM Hex sets to absolutely blow through most balance teams with one layer of Tspikes, traditional Acro sets to late game clean, utility options in Hypnosis, Destiny Bond, Defog. It can be tailored to a team and is almost always a useful member of a team. The variety of the moves it can run and spreads it can run mean that there is almost no surefire way to actually know what a set entails.
Now I'm all for variety. NP Vullaby is a cool Pokemon, but something like that still has similar counters to it's sets and has lots of intuitive counterplay to it. Drifloon has a specific set of checks that all change depending on set reveals or Unburden boosts. You think your Diglett or Wingull can revenge it, until it has an Unburden boost and suddenly it can't. You think Munchlax is safe until you get your Berry Juice stolen, or you have your Pawniard burnt while Drif takes 30-40%, or your Pawniard eats a Weather Ball.
I don't think that banning Arena Trap really solves the problem. I think it would be interesting to see a trapperless metagame to see what things start evolving to handle Drifloon, or Vullaby, or whatever else people have a bone to pick with, but ultimately I think this is a Drifloon problem. The things that Drifloon is checked by still get fucked up anyway by the selection of sets Drifloon can pick from, ultimately allowing Drif to pick what it wants to be boned by. Mareanie starts losing to CM Thunderbolt sets, Onix gets boned by WoW Thief sets, and takes hefty chunks from Hex Tspikes; Munchlax doesn't want to take a WoW or a Thief, Pawniard is better handled without Trapinch but ultimately Drifloon still can see itself bopping the Pawniard or at the very least trading a functional 1 for 1.
Ultimately I think the issue with Drifloon is utility. It just offers too much utility with very little drawbacks. The chances of it blasting through teams is fairly high, creating a matchup issue in preparing for the Floon set that you think is going to be used by your opponent, and at worst it severely disrupts your team through spreading burns, stealing items, and an overall nuisance. Trapinch and Diglett both help Drifloon, for sure, and enable it in some ways but it's ultimately problems inherent in Floon's design. The bulk it offers, the variety it offers, the sweeping potential combined with the splashability of its usage lead me to think this is something the tier should look at anyway, regardless of targeting trapping first or not. In a way, I think it's similar to Swirlix a bit. Swirlix was enabled by things like Gothita, which could take out things like Meditite or Foongus or Slowpoke and have tailored sets (CM CG, CM 3 Atk, BD, variety of coverage moves allowing it to pick its counters), but the issue was resolutely with Swirlix rather than the enabler. The enabler just made them stronger / more reliable.
I would be interested in talking more about trapping though. While I have often historically been vehemently anti-trapping, I do think it is in a much healthier state in this meta. Things are much bulkier, trapping involves much more thought process involved now. Trapinch in particular is just set up on / taken advantage of by so many Pokemon. I do think it's easy to overwhelm / take advantage of Trapinch if you keep it in mind, as the things that Trapinch traditionally beat can often beat it too. Giga Drain Ferroseed, +1 Curse Lax, DDance Onix, Mareanie. It gets taken advantage of by, lol, Drifloon, as well as Corphish, Chinchou, Eject Pack Vulpix, Eject Pack Farfetch, Wingull, Cutiefly (rslide-less). I think a lot of tech will evolve to allow more play against Trapinch and Diglett. In particular I think eject pack is a really cool tech to fuck with the momentum Trapinch sucks, its tradeoff is a lot more pronounced now than trapping has been in previous generations (since Shed Shell is, ultimately, very unviable).
My team's out of Ekans (long live the Toxels) so it's time to open the vault and share some goober technology before the thing it's for gets banned:
Helioptile @ Berry Juice
Ability: Dry Skin
Level: 5
EVs: 4 HP / 92 Def / 188 SpA / 12 SpD / 196 Spe
Timid Nature
- Thunderbolt
- Surf
- U-Turn
- Protect / Volt Switch / Parabolic Charge
This little bastard is the best bargain basement Drifloon check on the market. Max Timid hits 17 speed, so it only ties with unboosted Timid Drifloon, but it dominates the best set (CM Hex TBolt) and beats Acro sets, too. Thief is a pain in the ass (because Drifloon is broken), so you could hypothetically run Evio or something else, but I like Juice for the durability and ability to switch into Acro. Surf does something like 72% to standard Pinch, so you Protect and U-Turn outta there if you can't kill; Diglett just murks you, so Helio has to hope people don't keep finding out that Diglett is good. If you're not worried about First Impression, you can run one of the other moves - Parabolic Charge in particularly is cool as shit even if it isn't very good, and you might be into that sort of thing. You also beat SD Corphish - cool! In general, Helio is a cuter, worse Chinchou with a specific niche of whipping the best mon in the tier while also having a water immunity. Go nuts.
Helioptile @ Berry Juice
Ability: Dry Skin
Level: 5
EVs: 4 HP / 92 Def / 188 SpA / 12 SpD / 196 Spe
Timid Nature
- Thunderbolt
- Surf
- U-Turn
- Protect / Volt Switch / Parabolic Charge
This little bastard is the best bargain basement Drifloon check on the market. Max Timid hits 17 speed, so it only ties with unboosted Timid Drifloon, but it dominates the best set (CM Hex TBolt) and beats Acro sets, too. Thief is a pain in the ass (because Drifloon is broken), so you could hypothetically run Evio or something else, but I like Juice for the durability and ability to switch into Acro. Surf does something like 72% to standard Pinch, so you Protect and U-Turn outta there if you can't kill; Diglett just murks you, so Helio has to hope people don't keep finding out that Diglett is good. If you're not worried about First Impression, you can run one of the other moves - Parabolic Charge in particularly is cool as shit even if it isn't very good, and you might be into that sort of thing. You also beat SD Corphish - cool! In general, Helio is a cuter, worse Chinchou with a specific niche of whipping the best mon in the tier while also having a water immunity. Go nuts.
Oddish @ Eviolite
Ability: Chlorophyll
Level: 5
EVs: 236 HP / 76 Def / 76 SpD / 116 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Giga Drain
- Sludge Bomb
- Sleep Powder
- Strength Sap
So coming here to say a bit about the thing which people seem to be sleeping off a bit due to oddish's popularity under sun: its defensive capabilities,oddish does have similar bulk to our beloved
(25/14/14) except for the fact that it doesnt have regen,despite this its sleep powder is a lot more spammable then foongus spore was due to the only grass types being used atm are snover and ferroseed, and the first fears sludge bomb as well, Strenght sap is also a great tool in punishing physical attackers not named pawnAnyways u all prob saw this being used on alkione's battle on week 1 and my battle on the same week(which oddish's sleep played a crucial role on the battle)
Edit: this spread is 11 Speed, which makes it outspeed Timburr 100% of the time, 10 speed with investment on either def or Spdef is also a option, But i wouldnt run 9 Speed as you tie with spritzee which can suck sometimes
Last edited:
After I found out that council voted 5-4 to quickban Drifloon, I thought I would voice my opinion here. Now, I’m against banning Drifloon overall, but I’m just going to argue that at the very least this should be a suspect test rather than a quickban by the council.
Firstly, let’s talk about the quickbans that occurred in previous weeks. Gastly boasted an amazing speed, deadly special attack, and an incredibly broad movepool. It was able to OHKO and 2HKO basically the entire tier with the appropriate coverage move, and it even had priority in the form of sucker punch if a weakened scarf mon tried to revenge kill it. The only defensive answer, Munchlax, lacked the ability to OHKO gast (unless it was running ZHB which had a whole other multitude of issues) and resultingly would be forced into passively spamming recycle. This made it very prone to getting sludge bomb poisoned, which really hurts its survivability. Overall, Gastly fit the archetypical mold of a broken offensive mon.
Gothita, on the other hand, provided insurmountable support for all team styles. While its most common set was choice scarf due to the offensive nature of the Gastly meta, it could also run a more bulky eviolite + 3 attacks set, and even calm mind or PP stall. Due to the sheer amount of different sets that Goth was able to run, there was always essentially one variant of goth that your team would be weak to. There wasn’t any real opportunity cost to trapping a mon either, since PP stall variants could just switch out before you struggle to death, and all the dark-type set up sweepers (Pawn&Scraggy) are relatively easy to deal with for most teams.
And lastly, there’s Cherubi. Though there was some controversy surrounding whether or not to ban Vulpix as opposed to this mon, the combination of the two was undeniably broken. Grass and fire coverage is nearly unresisted in the entire tier due to the lack of decent fire types overall, and its 150 base power Weather Ball is hitting pretty hard anyways. If Cherubi ever had a free turn to set up growth (which wasn’t always that difficult given the extra bulk eviolite provides), your only counterplay was attempting to stall out sun by switching between your grass and fire resists, hoping you guess right each turn. Trapinch couldn’t even revenge kill Cherubi with First Impression because it has the free moveslots to just run protect.
Now, what is it that makes Drifloon so threatening to begin with? It has good STABs, decent bulk, variability set-wise, and blazing speed in tandem with unburden. It primarily has three sets: physical, mixed, and special. Physical runs acrobatics, thief, will-o-wisp, and sub; mixed runs acrobatics, hex, will-o-wisp, and sub; special runs hex, calm mind, substitute, and thunderbolt/will-o-wisp. On teams weak to hazards it can also make room for defog, and on sun teams it can even sometimes use weather ball. It can also even use destiny bond or memento to some extent. While the physical and mixed set work well on their own, the special set paired with Mareanie for toxic spikes support is typically viewed to be its strongest set.
However, despite Drifloon being very threatening and unpredictable, it is notably different from the three aforementioned mons; Gothita was a different issue altogether so I'll try and draw comparisons to Cherubi and Gastly. Unlike those two, Drifloon can only really threaten to sweep once per match. It can’t really just come in, wall break for a bit, and then threaten to sweep later. This not only limits the opportunities to come in, but also means that Drifloon's sweeping opportunity is shut down by a single mistake. Gastly had a much more effective speed tier, priority, and the potential to run a Choice Scarf. Cherubi needed external support from Vulpix to double its Speed, which made it less splashable but didn't lower the brokenness of the Vulpix-Cherubi core, which came from the fact that it could double its Speed easily and repeatedly. Drifloon is a lot more threatening than most of what we have available, but that makes sense - it comes at the significant cost of only being able to sweep once.
Furthermore, Drifloon lacks immediate power, as it needs to either set up for a bit with CM, or pop its BJ to deal relevant damage. This means that each set has its own hard walls. Physical Drifloon is dealt with really well by eviolite Onix, eviolite Chinchou, eviolite Pawniard, eviolite Ferroseed, and pickup Munchlax. Mixed is dealt with easily by Munchlax, Vullaby, and Pawniard. Special is also dealt with by Munchlax and Pawniard, and it also needs burns/poisons/other status or a couple calm minds to actually be threatening to other mons. Though unconventional, Oddish teams do well vs this set too. CM Drifloon teams typically rely on Diglett to remove the toxic spikes that Mareanie sets, so they tend to get completely crushed by Oddish sun. It's worth noting that while Drifloon can invest in bulk or offense, it can't do both, so a variety of healthy mons can still deal with a weakened Drifloon on the revenge-kill even if it has managed to preserve Toxic Spikes and remove every single one of your checks. What this means is that unlike Gastly or Cherubi, Drifloon has clear counterplay. Compare Drifloon's counterplay options to Cherubi's or Gastly's, which are far lower in quantity or at least viability.
If you still need a 100% counter to all Drifloon sets, pickup Munchlax is a good choice. This set has viability outside of just countering Drifloon (which cannot be said of Cherubi hard counters like Litwick/Growlithe), as it can be used to beat Vullaby in a 1v1 scenario. Burn isn’t even that big of a deal for Munchlax, because, while Double-Edge is generally superior, Façade also works as an okay normal STAB. Pawniard also checks all Drifloon variants, but it doesn’t appreciate being burned and is more prone to getting trapped than Munch.
Part of Drifloon's strength is versatility, which makes sense because its individual sets wouldn't be nearly as threatening if we knew them from team preview. Because Drifloon has the ability to work around to some extent its checks and counters depending on the set, when playing around an opposing Drifloon it’s important to scout. Unless there is a Mareanie and Diglett on the opposing team (in which case it’s almost guaranteed to be CM with Thunderbolt) , you can’t really know for sure their set until the game starts. In which case, as long as you don’t put your BJ mons in a position to have their juice stolen by Thief until the opposing Drifloon reveals their attacking moves, you’re not really in too bad of a position. The mons that check Drifloon’s various sets are good mons in and of themselves, so more likely than not you’re going to have multiple that check it on a single team already, making scouting for Thief simple enough.
Despite all this, some people may still find Drifloon too much for the current meta. But at the very least, I hope that we can agree that Drifloon, while powerful, is on a completely different level from the other threats we have already banned. At the bare minimum, a suspect should be done on Drifloon to determine whether or not it should stay in the tier as opposed to being grouped in with mons much more clearly broken than it and getting quickbanned.
Firstly, let’s talk about the quickbans that occurred in previous weeks. Gastly boasted an amazing speed, deadly special attack, and an incredibly broad movepool. It was able to OHKO and 2HKO basically the entire tier with the appropriate coverage move, and it even had priority in the form of sucker punch if a weakened scarf mon tried to revenge kill it. The only defensive answer, Munchlax, lacked the ability to OHKO gast (unless it was running ZHB which had a whole other multitude of issues) and resultingly would be forced into passively spamming recycle. This made it very prone to getting sludge bomb poisoned, which really hurts its survivability. Overall, Gastly fit the archetypical mold of a broken offensive mon.
Gothita, on the other hand, provided insurmountable support for all team styles. While its most common set was choice scarf due to the offensive nature of the Gastly meta, it could also run a more bulky eviolite + 3 attacks set, and even calm mind or PP stall. Due to the sheer amount of different sets that Goth was able to run, there was always essentially one variant of goth that your team would be weak to. There wasn’t any real opportunity cost to trapping a mon either, since PP stall variants could just switch out before you struggle to death, and all the dark-type set up sweepers (Pawn&Scraggy) are relatively easy to deal with for most teams.
And lastly, there’s Cherubi. Though there was some controversy surrounding whether or not to ban Vulpix as opposed to this mon, the combination of the two was undeniably broken. Grass and fire coverage is nearly unresisted in the entire tier due to the lack of decent fire types overall, and its 150 base power Weather Ball is hitting pretty hard anyways. If Cherubi ever had a free turn to set up growth (which wasn’t always that difficult given the extra bulk eviolite provides), your only counterplay was attempting to stall out sun by switching between your grass and fire resists, hoping you guess right each turn. Trapinch couldn’t even revenge kill Cherubi with First Impression because it has the free moveslots to just run protect.
Now, what is it that makes Drifloon so threatening to begin with? It has good STABs, decent bulk, variability set-wise, and blazing speed in tandem with unburden. It primarily has three sets: physical, mixed, and special. Physical runs acrobatics, thief, will-o-wisp, and sub; mixed runs acrobatics, hex, will-o-wisp, and sub; special runs hex, calm mind, substitute, and thunderbolt/will-o-wisp. On teams weak to hazards it can also make room for defog, and on sun teams it can even sometimes use weather ball. It can also even use destiny bond or memento to some extent. While the physical and mixed set work well on their own, the special set paired with Mareanie for toxic spikes support is typically viewed to be its strongest set.
However, despite Drifloon being very threatening and unpredictable, it is notably different from the three aforementioned mons; Gothita was a different issue altogether so I'll try and draw comparisons to Cherubi and Gastly. Unlike those two, Drifloon can only really threaten to sweep once per match. It can’t really just come in, wall break for a bit, and then threaten to sweep later. This not only limits the opportunities to come in, but also means that Drifloon's sweeping opportunity is shut down by a single mistake. Gastly had a much more effective speed tier, priority, and the potential to run a Choice Scarf. Cherubi needed external support from Vulpix to double its Speed, which made it less splashable but didn't lower the brokenness of the Vulpix-Cherubi core, which came from the fact that it could double its Speed easily and repeatedly. Drifloon is a lot more threatening than most of what we have available, but that makes sense - it comes at the significant cost of only being able to sweep once.
Furthermore, Drifloon lacks immediate power, as it needs to either set up for a bit with CM, or pop its BJ to deal relevant damage. This means that each set has its own hard walls. Physical Drifloon is dealt with really well by eviolite Onix, eviolite Chinchou, eviolite Pawniard, eviolite Ferroseed, and pickup Munchlax. Mixed is dealt with easily by Munchlax, Vullaby, and Pawniard. Special is also dealt with by Munchlax and Pawniard, and it also needs burns/poisons/other status or a couple calm minds to actually be threatening to other mons. Though unconventional, Oddish teams do well vs this set too. CM Drifloon teams typically rely on Diglett to remove the toxic spikes that Mareanie sets, so they tend to get completely crushed by Oddish sun. It's worth noting that while Drifloon can invest in bulk or offense, it can't do both, so a variety of healthy mons can still deal with a weakened Drifloon on the revenge-kill even if it has managed to preserve Toxic Spikes and remove every single one of your checks. What this means is that unlike Gastly or Cherubi, Drifloon has clear counterplay. Compare Drifloon's counterplay options to Cherubi's or Gastly's, which are far lower in quantity or at least viability.
If you still need a 100% counter to all Drifloon sets, pickup Munchlax is a good choice. This set has viability outside of just countering Drifloon (which cannot be said of Cherubi hard counters like Litwick/Growlithe), as it can be used to beat Vullaby in a 1v1 scenario. Burn isn’t even that big of a deal for Munchlax, because, while Double-Edge is generally superior, Façade also works as an okay normal STAB. Pawniard also checks all Drifloon variants, but it doesn’t appreciate being burned and is more prone to getting trapped than Munch.
Part of Drifloon's strength is versatility, which makes sense because its individual sets wouldn't be nearly as threatening if we knew them from team preview. Because Drifloon has the ability to work around to some extent its checks and counters depending on the set, when playing around an opposing Drifloon it’s important to scout. Unless there is a Mareanie and Diglett on the opposing team (in which case it’s almost guaranteed to be CM with Thunderbolt) , you can’t really know for sure their set until the game starts. In which case, as long as you don’t put your BJ mons in a position to have their juice stolen by Thief until the opposing Drifloon reveals their attacking moves, you’re not really in too bad of a position. The mons that check Drifloon’s various sets are good mons in and of themselves, so more likely than not you’re going to have multiple that check it on a single team already, making scouting for Thief simple enough.
Despite all this, some people may still find Drifloon too much for the current meta. But at the very least, I hope that we can agree that Drifloon, while powerful, is on a completely different level from the other threats we have already banned. At the bare minimum, a suspect should be done on Drifloon to determine whether or not it should stay in the tier as opposed to being grouped in with mons much more clearly broken than it and getting quickbanned.
Busting a couple more sets out of the vault.
Farfetch'd-Galar @ Eject Pack
Ability: Scrappy
Level: 5
EVs: 20 HP / 236 Atk / 236 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- Knock Off
- Brave Bird
- Covet / Swords Dance
I was extremely giddy at 3 am the night when I came up with this, and then subsequently sad to remember that ima brought it Week 1 of Ekans (and then somebody else later on during Week 3). Jet Pack Fetch'd, nonetheless, is some nasty technology. Much like Mannat's jet pack Vulpix, Fetch'd works in tandem with a trapper like Diglett to fire off a powerful Close Combat, bait out Mareanie, and then remove it from the game such that Fetch'd or whatever else on your team that doesn't like Mareanie can romp. Losing the bulk of Eviolite kind of sucks sometimes considering how Fetch'd can't heal to begin with, which is why I like to run Covet in the fourth slot to steal juices and evios.
CAUTION!! Only read the following set if you are real....only the realest can handle it
Rufflet (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
Level: 5
EVs: 92 Atk / 220 SpA / 196 Spe
Naive Nature
- Hurricane
- Heat Wave
- Close Combat
- Work Up
Mixed Rufflet hits like a god damn semi truck. This is true of regular Rufflet, but regular Rufflet doesn't have the sauce that this has. Should you actually hit your Hurricanes (only a little less likely than hitting your Hustle Brave Birds), you will blow stuff up:
Farfetch'd-Galar @ Eject Pack
Ability: Scrappy
Level: 5
EVs: 20 HP / 236 Atk / 236 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- Knock Off
- Brave Bird
- Covet / Swords Dance
I was extremely giddy at 3 am the night when I came up with this, and then subsequently sad to remember that ima brought it Week 1 of Ekans (and then somebody else later on during Week 3). Jet Pack Fetch'd, nonetheless, is some nasty technology. Much like Mannat's jet pack Vulpix, Fetch'd works in tandem with a trapper like Diglett to fire off a powerful Close Combat, bait out Mareanie, and then remove it from the game such that Fetch'd or whatever else on your team that doesn't like Mareanie can romp. Losing the bulk of Eviolite kind of sucks sometimes considering how Fetch'd can't heal to begin with, which is why I like to run Covet in the fourth slot to steal juices and evios.
CAUTION!! Only read the following set if you are real....only the realest can handle it
Rufflet (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
Level: 5
EVs: 92 Atk / 220 SpA / 196 Spe
Naive Nature
- Hurricane
- Heat Wave
- Close Combat
- Work Up
Mixed Rufflet hits like a god damn semi truck. This is true of regular Rufflet, but regular Rufflet doesn't have the sauce that this has. Should you actually hit your Hurricanes (only a little less likely than hitting your Hustle Brave Birds), you will blow stuff up:
Better yet, bluff a Scarf, force a switch on something like Timburr, and boost with Work Up such that you pretty much shred everything. You sheer damage output isn't as high as physical Rufflet, and missing two Hurricanes in a row and dying will make you cry, but this set at least hypothetically has more staying power than traditional Rufflet sets that will wear down and die just by dealing damage with Brave Bird. It's a highly potent wallbreaker, especially with webs up. That's not even to mention the extreme psychic damage you'll do by beating somebody with mixed Rufflet.
Hi all - just a quick heads up that the council will look into suspecting Drifloon for probably 10ish days as soon as the PS servers are back up.
The reason we voted on quickbanning vs suspecting was because the actual ban vs dnb vote on Drifloon was 7-0 pro-ban, with fatty and I undecided. We have since felt that a) a ban isn't pressing enough, and b) the overall community may not agree with the ban enough, to warrant a quickban.
The reason we voted on quickbanning vs suspecting was because the actual ban vs dnb vote on Drifloon was 7-0 pro-ban, with fatty and I undecided. We have since felt that a) a ban isn't pressing enough, and b) the overall community may not agree with the ban enough, to warrant a quickban.
This is just a bad decision and a huge waste of time with spl coming up, especially when Drifloon is almost unanimously considered broken. The council literally voted to ban it 7-0. There's no point suspecting something that will likely have around a 90% ban rate anyways, all it does is waste time that could be used to look at things that are far more contentious. "The overall community" has made several pro ban posts, one post that merely advocates for a suspect not a quickban, and multiple shitposts about ferroseed. The sentiment is largely pro ban, both on forums and on discord, and the punctilious debate between whether it deserves a suspect or a quick ban is nothing more than nitpicking on something that's going to end up banned by a large margin anyway.
Timing is a non-issue; the Drifloon suspect will conclude before SPL begins. I wouldn't personally be interested in suspecting anything else immediately after Drifloon, even if it was quickbanned, because the next major suspect options (Trapinch, Cutiefly, Vullaby) are at least moderately related to Drifloon, so it would make sense to give a couple of weeks for the metagame to settle before deciding on whether they are suspect-worthy as well.
Anyways, I was still undecided when the ban-dnb vote came up in the council chat. I am now leaning toward Drifloon not being broken and instead being roughly in line with other top tier threats, though, so I'll try and give my thoughts on why.
The first issue is that, in regards to its Hex set, Drifloon will almost always, against a competent opponent with a competent team, have exactly one chance to sweep. If it gets forced out, then it will not have access to Unburden again. Compare this to any other high tier offensive mon; all of them can much more easily switch in and out, both to wall-break and to provide utility early on in the match, without badly risking the removal of their threat as a sweeper. This isn't to say that Drifloon without the benefit of Unburden is outright useless, but I think it's hard to argue that a slightly bulky 17 Speed mon that relies on Toxic Spikes support to even have 2HKO power is very good at all.
Furthermore, its problem of having only one shot at sweeping is unavoidable. It can't be remedied with team support like how Vulpix could reset sun for Cherubi; it's a simple fact that, if you are using or facing a Hexfloon and it activates Unburden before having to switch out, it will never have Unburden again. Thieving a Berry Juice to activate Unburden multiple times a) requires a significant outplay, b) is highly dependent on the opponent's team in that their Drifloon answers need to be running Berry Juice, and, most importantly, c) is impossible to viably fit onto the set with suspect-worthy sweeping potential in Hexfloon.
On those grounds, and with the understanding that Drifloon should still, on average, be treated as a very, very S tier threat, Hex Drifloon should be an unusually threatening sweeper while having Unburden, since there is such a major opportunity cost to setting it up; with its higher risk comes higher reward.
This isn't to say that we can let (Hex) Drifloon be as threatening as it wants, of course, or we'd be freeing Swirlix. Hexfloon carries its checks and even its hard counters. In fact, not only is it incomparable to Swirlix, but in terms of raw number of checks, it's actually quite in line with the various Vullaby sets or Corphish or even Munchlax. It's easier to set up and harder to revenge-kill the first time around, but also less immediately threatening and/or more dependent on external and potentially unreliable Toxic Spikes support. Of course, it doesn't actually carry itself against its checks in the same way given that it cripples them to a somewhat greater degree. I would argue that this is a perfectly fair trade-off when you consider that Drifloon is, in turn, crippled by simply being forced out; checking Drifloon and forcing it out diminishes its offensive presence to a much greater degree than, say, forcing a Corphish out.
This is mostly assuming that Hexfloon has access to Toxic Spikes support, which is another level to this that I would argue drives it down into comfortably non-broken territory. It either needs to give up Calm Mind to run Will-O-Wisp, and therefore any hope of OHKOing Eviolite or even bulkier Berry Juice holders, or it needs to be paired with Toxic Spikes support. If the opponent is able to keep Toxic Spikes off the field, a good reference point for its threat level is that it has nothing capable of 2HKOing Eviolite Diglett. Defog support can often be adequate for this, but grounded Poison-types are even better; they may be trappable, but not any more than the Toxic Spikes setters that Drifloon is so reliant on.
Now, I realize that at least some of Drifloon's supposed brokenness stems from its versatility. I've mostly been discussing Hexfloon up to now because, from a standalone perspective, this is the only set that could be considered even remotely suspect-worthy. Acrofloon is, simply put, not a top tier offensive threat on its own. It's still a very good set because it offers an enormous amount of utility, is able to check more threats than Hexfloon is able to, and doesn't require as much support to pose an immediate threat as Hexfloon does. However, you would have to have quite a poorly built team to face a serious risk of Acrofloon being their dedicated sweeper; even its own tool for crippling its checks, Thief, will also cripple Drifloon itself if it steals anything that isn't a Berry Juice.
Drifloon may have two great sets, but these sets actually share some of their more reliable checks. Acrofloon just isn't very strong; it maxes out at 15 Attack and only has a single even moderately powerful attack, one that requires it to sub up first. Having Thief makes it somewhat better at crippling its checks, but at the day, it still either loses or is at least brought to a point where it's a total non-threat. As a result, you can often get away with assuming it to be the much more threatening Hex set if Toxic Spikes are up; if Toxic Spikes aren't up, then you have even more room to maneuver. This is all assuming that you're at least carrying some Drifloon checks, which, again, I don't think is too much to ask for relative to having to check other top tier threats.
In summary, my thought process is as follows:
1. Drifloon only gains a medium advantage from its versatility given how weak Acrofloon's damage output is, and how dependent Hexfloon is on Toxic Spikes.
2. Drifloon does not have an unusually low amount of checks compared to other top tier offensive threats; it is simply able to cripple its checks to a greater degree.
3. Drifloon's advantages as an offensive threat overall are offset by an equally major disadvantage in its reliance on the mostly 1-time Unburden to pose as a serious sweeper, meaning sending it in early has a much greater cost.
Anyways, I was still undecided when the ban-dnb vote came up in the council chat. I am now leaning toward Drifloon not being broken and instead being roughly in line with other top tier threats, though, so I'll try and give my thoughts on why.
The first issue is that, in regards to its Hex set, Drifloon will almost always, against a competent opponent with a competent team, have exactly one chance to sweep. If it gets forced out, then it will not have access to Unburden again. Compare this to any other high tier offensive mon; all of them can much more easily switch in and out, both to wall-break and to provide utility early on in the match, without badly risking the removal of their threat as a sweeper. This isn't to say that Drifloon without the benefit of Unburden is outright useless, but I think it's hard to argue that a slightly bulky 17 Speed mon that relies on Toxic Spikes support to even have 2HKO power is very good at all.
Furthermore, its problem of having only one shot at sweeping is unavoidable. It can't be remedied with team support like how Vulpix could reset sun for Cherubi; it's a simple fact that, if you are using or facing a Hexfloon and it activates Unburden before having to switch out, it will never have Unburden again. Thieving a Berry Juice to activate Unburden multiple times a) requires a significant outplay, b) is highly dependent on the opponent's team in that their Drifloon answers need to be running Berry Juice, and, most importantly, c) is impossible to viably fit onto the set with suspect-worthy sweeping potential in Hexfloon.
On those grounds, and with the understanding that Drifloon should still, on average, be treated as a very, very S tier threat, Hex Drifloon should be an unusually threatening sweeper while having Unburden, since there is such a major opportunity cost to setting it up; with its higher risk comes higher reward.
This isn't to say that we can let (Hex) Drifloon be as threatening as it wants, of course, or we'd be freeing Swirlix. Hexfloon carries its checks and even its hard counters. In fact, not only is it incomparable to Swirlix, but in terms of raw number of checks, it's actually quite in line with the various Vullaby sets or Corphish or even Munchlax. It's easier to set up and harder to revenge-kill the first time around, but also less immediately threatening and/or more dependent on external and potentially unreliable Toxic Spikes support. Of course, it doesn't actually carry itself against its checks in the same way given that it cripples them to a somewhat greater degree. I would argue that this is a perfectly fair trade-off when you consider that Drifloon is, in turn, crippled by simply being forced out; checking Drifloon and forcing it out diminishes its offensive presence to a much greater degree than, say, forcing a Corphish out.
This is mostly assuming that Hexfloon has access to Toxic Spikes support, which is another level to this that I would argue drives it down into comfortably non-broken territory. It either needs to give up Calm Mind to run Will-O-Wisp, and therefore any hope of OHKOing Eviolite or even bulkier Berry Juice holders, or it needs to be paired with Toxic Spikes support. If the opponent is able to keep Toxic Spikes off the field, a good reference point for its threat level is that it has nothing capable of 2HKOing Eviolite Diglett. Defog support can often be adequate for this, but grounded Poison-types are even better; they may be trappable, but not any more than the Toxic Spikes setters that Drifloon is so reliant on.
Now, I realize that at least some of Drifloon's supposed brokenness stems from its versatility. I've mostly been discussing Hexfloon up to now because, from a standalone perspective, this is the only set that could be considered even remotely suspect-worthy. Acrofloon is, simply put, not a top tier offensive threat on its own. It's still a very good set because it offers an enormous amount of utility, is able to check more threats than Hexfloon is able to, and doesn't require as much support to pose an immediate threat as Hexfloon does. However, you would have to have quite a poorly built team to face a serious risk of Acrofloon being their dedicated sweeper; even its own tool for crippling its checks, Thief, will also cripple Drifloon itself if it steals anything that isn't a Berry Juice.
Drifloon may have two great sets, but these sets actually share some of their more reliable checks. Acrofloon just isn't very strong; it maxes out at 15 Attack and only has a single even moderately powerful attack, one that requires it to sub up first. Having Thief makes it somewhat better at crippling its checks, but at the day, it still either loses or is at least brought to a point where it's a total non-threat. As a result, you can often get away with assuming it to be the much more threatening Hex set if Toxic Spikes are up; if Toxic Spikes aren't up, then you have even more room to maneuver. This is all assuming that you're at least carrying some Drifloon checks, which, again, I don't think is too much to ask for relative to having to check other top tier threats.
In summary, my thought process is as follows:
1. Drifloon only gains a medium advantage from its versatility given how weak Acrofloon's damage output is, and how dependent Hexfloon is on Toxic Spikes.
2. Drifloon does not have an unusually low amount of checks compared to other top tier offensive threats; it is simply able to cripple its checks to a greater degree.
3. Drifloon's advantages as an offensive threat overall are offset by an equally major disadvantage in its reliance on the mostly 1-time Unburden to pose as a serious sweeper, meaning sending it in early has a much greater cost.
I have time to kill waiting for a flight, so here's my thoughts on the meta at the moment. I've compartmented it to make it easier to read.
This should give some food for thought, and I think the council will be busy for the next few months.
Imo Drifloon is busted, but not super busted like Gothita or Gastly. Ghost-Flying is a good typing in a meta lacking Knock Off, and the Flying type can actually help by allowing Rocks to wear it down to Unburden range, where it then outspeeds everything you would expect to reach +2 Speed.
It has a wide variety of sets, including will-o-hex, acro-thief, and endure "shell smash". It's very hard to deduce the team at preview, and it's very easy to be caught out if you guess wrong. For example, if you leave Munchlax for it and it turns out to be physical, realistically your best case scenario is having a burned Munchlax at very low health, allowing a teammate to clean.
The variety of sets makes Floon very splashable and it's very rare that it will be a complete dead weight in a matchup. Typically it get a burn off (wisp accuracy permitting) substitutes to pop juice, and fire off a strong Acrobatics/Hex.
My biggest issue with Drifloon is the difficulty with counterplay. I have yet to find any set with which I can say "I am safe from Drifloon".
Here are some decent sets I have tried when attempting to ladder for the suspect:
Shed skin dragon dance Scraggy - this guy can be a big threat if Floon is not in range of popping its juice. Typically the opponent will wisp, then sub, by which time you're at +2, they may then go to a conventional Scraggy check like Mareanie. By this point you're at +3 with an 87.5% chance of having the burn cured.
Guts Timburr - I'd rather run Iron Fist generally, but Floon's usage makes Guts the better set imo right now. If the opponent goes straight for a wisp rather than scouting with sub, Timburr can knock it out. I need to run calcs to check this, because 17 attack thunderpunch Timburr just misses the ohko when I've used it, so maybe it needs to be full attack.
Munchlax - Facade Munch is good against Floon except for Thief, and Acrobatics sets. So essentially this is really good against special Floon. Munch is pretty great in general at the moment, so it's worth running.
Special Vullaby - Special Vullaby is very common at the moment, since the threat of Knock Off scares Munchlax, and it isn't bothered by wisp burns. I think for this reason, special Vulls with Knock Off are popping up more often. However, Floon can still do significant damage with Thunderbolt, or with the Endure Weakness Policy set, which proceeds to outspeed +2 Vullaby and KO.
With Recycle and the current lack of Knock Off, this thing would have been quickbanned.
It has a wide variety of sets, including will-o-hex, acro-thief, and endure "shell smash". It's very hard to deduce the team at preview, and it's very easy to be caught out if you guess wrong. For example, if you leave Munchlax for it and it turns out to be physical, realistically your best case scenario is having a burned Munchlax at very low health, allowing a teammate to clean.
The variety of sets makes Floon very splashable and it's very rare that it will be a complete dead weight in a matchup. Typically it get a burn off (wisp accuracy permitting) substitutes to pop juice, and fire off a strong Acrobatics/Hex.
My biggest issue with Drifloon is the difficulty with counterplay. I have yet to find any set with which I can say "I am safe from Drifloon".
Here are some decent sets I have tried when attempting to ladder for the suspect:
Shed skin dragon dance Scraggy - this guy can be a big threat if Floon is not in range of popping its juice. Typically the opponent will wisp, then sub, by which time you're at +2, they may then go to a conventional Scraggy check like Mareanie. By this point you're at +3 with an 87.5% chance of having the burn cured.
Guts Timburr - I'd rather run Iron Fist generally, but Floon's usage makes Guts the better set imo right now. If the opponent goes straight for a wisp rather than scouting with sub, Timburr can knock it out. I need to run calcs to check this, because 17 attack thunderpunch Timburr just misses the ohko when I've used it, so maybe it needs to be full attack.
Munchlax - Facade Munch is good against Floon except for Thief, and Acrobatics sets. So essentially this is really good against special Floon. Munch is pretty great in general at the moment, so it's worth running.
Special Vullaby - Special Vullaby is very common at the moment, since the threat of Knock Off scares Munchlax, and it isn't bothered by wisp burns. I think for this reason, special Vulls with Knock Off are popping up more often. However, Floon can still do significant damage with Thunderbolt, or with the Endure Weakness Policy set, which proceeds to outspeed +2 Vullaby and KO.
With Recycle and the current lack of Knock Off, this thing would have been quickbanned.
After the Drifloon suspect, this thing should be looked at next. It can easily run Life Orb, Quiver Dance, Webs and Screens, or combinations of multiple of these. It has great coverage with Bug, Fairy, Psychic and Grass coverage. Webs alone is potentially busted and gets worse if Drifloon goes. The lack of Snivy means Webs counterplay is the Weakened Pawniard and the underwhelming Inkay. Neither of these mons check Cutiefly itself, although Pawn can threaten it situationally.
The best Cutiefly counter at the moment is Cufant, a Mon that is held back by the prevalence of trappers, Diglett moreso. Ferroseed is a decent Cutie answer, but can struggle to do much outside of Thunder waving. It also gets worn down by Bug Buzzes. Generally, Steel types are the best checks to Cutie, but are easily removed by trappers.
The best Cutiefly counter at the moment is Cufant, a Mon that is held back by the prevalence of trappers, Diglett moreso. Ferroseed is a decent Cutie answer, but can struggle to do much outside of Thunder waving. It also gets worn down by Bug Buzzes. Generally, Steel types are the best checks to Cutie, but are easily removed by trappers.
Still gay. Trapinch is unsurprisingly still an excellent teammate for birdspam teams since it removes Onix and Steel types. There is a little bit of counterplay in the form of Power Whip Cufant, or haxxing to shit with Iron Head flinches. Trapinch can remove Munchlax with Superpower, although this is mitigated by the common curselax set. Diglett also prevents Mareanie switching safely into Vulpix on Sun teams because of the Eject Pack Overheat set. Additionally, the drought weakens Mareanie's water attacks, helping Trapinch to remove it. This doesn't even mention the Wynaut-Trapinch combo, where Wynaut encores the targets and can either remove it or pass it to Trapinch to remove.
Other than the obvious stuff above, my other problem with trapping, is the inability to double out of a trapper. For example, if I have Corphish without Superpower and a Vulpix (idk why, bad synergy lol) and the opponent has a Ferroseed and Trapinch; Trapinch removes something, I bring in Corphish, threating to set up Dragon Dance. The obvious play is to go Ferroseed. On this turn, I would want to double to Vulpix on the Ferro switch so that I can fire off a free boosted Fire Blast or a Wisp, but I can't because Corphish is trapped.
At some point, trapping needs to be suspected. I don't know whether Arena Trap or Diglett/Trapinch is best, but I can't see how both staying indefinitely is good for the meta.
Other than the obvious stuff above, my other problem with trapping, is the inability to double out of a trapper. For example, if I have Corphish without Superpower and a Vulpix (idk why, bad synergy lol) and the opponent has a Ferroseed and Trapinch; Trapinch removes something, I bring in Corphish, threating to set up Dragon Dance. The obvious play is to go Ferroseed. On this turn, I would want to double to Vulpix on the Ferro switch so that I can fire off a free boosted Fire Blast or a Wisp, but I can't because Corphish is trapped.
At some point, trapping needs to be suspected. I don't know whether Arena Trap or Diglett/Trapinch is best, but I can't see how both staying indefinitely is good for the meta.
This might be a more controversial take than the others, but I think the wrong mon was targeted for the previous Sun nerf. I think that Vulpix is better, due to the power of its Sun boosted Fire Blasts, and its Eject Pack set which can pivot into a trapper to remove Mareanie/Chinchou, potentially Munchlax. Additionally, it has Wisp and Energy Ball to cripple switchins like Onix and Corphish. Oddish can also put its switchins to sleep (accuracy permitting), and cripple Munchlax with Strength Sap. The Eject Pack on Vulpix can be baited out, but realistically not many mons want to switch into a sun boosted overheat, and there is a distinct lack of good fire types after Dexit. I hope we can see a Vulpix suspect, with Cherubi freed as a result of a ban (because seriously, how can we ban Cherubi ahead of the mons above?!?)
This should give some food for thought, and I think the council will be busy for the next few months.
With Drifloon suspect over and Ekans already finished, I want to take a look at the Pokemon who have been the spotlight for the tour, as well as some Pokemon I feel worth noting:
Vulpix is probably the biggest threat to look out for in Little Cup right now, as Eject Pack sets are able to fire off a strong sun-powered Overheat able to 2HKO and OHKO bulkier threats such as Vullaby and Spritzee, and provide momentum for a trapper like Diglett or Trapinch (see below) to remove the respective Fire resist in the opposing team, be it Mareanie or Munchlax. The old bread and butter set is also no slouch providing eight turns of sun to abuse for both Vulpix and Oddish (see below), and Weather Ball is very strong and much more reliable than Fire Blast. This Pokemon lacks of any decent counterplay as stated above, and I believe it will keep rising even more to the point it becomes a very centralizing threat (if it had not become already) deserving of a suspect.
Oddish has seen a humongous amount of usage during the second half of Ekans thanks to its sun sweeper set based on Strength Sap + Growth, able to severely weaken threats such as Munchlax, Timburr, Mudbray, Corphish and Onix and scare every single one of them out, while having amazing bulk to resist important hits. A peculiarity that separates it from its long gone partner Cherubi is that it does not require to outspeed stuff, which allows it to give it an amazing Mareanie-esque bulk of 24/14/14 if invested correctly and it still hits like a truck thanks to a quite high Special Attack stat. Vulpix is a key partner since Ferroseed, while being able to outbulk it and beat it, it does too much damage on the long run by taking down its Eviolite and parlyzing it, thus its mandtory to remove it beforehand. While not as dominant under sun, Oddish still can accomplish its function of a very bulky Water and Ground check thanks to Strength Sap and the less reliable Sleep Powder to put important Pokemon able to put it in check such as Pawniard and Vullaby, and exert its role more reliably.
Needed to pinpoint this, but the reason Oddish is so hard to take down is due to the offensive nature of Little Cup, which has many Pokemon with amazing Attack stats and that stat translates into more than half Oddish's HP or completely replenishes its health, being able to keep doing its functions.
Arena Trap users are really important, specially Diglett which is back in the tracks trapping important Pokemon such as Mareanie, Pawniard (and even Spritzee!) thanks to its combination of Speed and utility options to help many teams, specifically sun teams, as Eject Pack Vulpix provides an insane amount of momentum + damage output to the Fire resists and easens Diglett and Trapinch job by trapping both Mareanie and Munchlax effortlessly. That aside, let's look at both of them.
Diglett keeps being the annoyance it has always been by trapping important Pokemon such as Onix and Mareanie, which despite being many few Pokemon in Diglett's trapping pool, these are key Pokemon in the metagame. On Trapinch's side, the pool is way bigger thanks to its ability to tailor its movepool according to the team's needs. Trapinch can take out more key Pokemon in Onix, Ferroseed, Munchlax, Pawniard in a quite reliable way, and can revenge kill stuff thanks to First Impression, meaning you could lose an important Pokeon to make a comeback in the battle.
Galarian Ponyta is underrated in a metagame where Drifloon tries to make use of Toxic Spikes whenever possible, being able to scare a good portion of the metagame out. It can run a plethora of sets and is a threat few teams account for. But I would like to show you how mixed sets can be a pain in the neck.
Low Kick is probably the best coverage option Galarian Ponyta provides in mixed, being able to OHKO Munchlax in the spot and 2HKO Onix effortlessly. This feat is capitalized inmensely in Sun teams, where the Vulpix + Oddish core appreciates either Munchlax or Ferroseed gone thanks to Ponyta's efforts. However, its 4MSS blocks the path for it to be really prominent, as it wants to run Dazzling Gleam for Vullaby, Mystical Fire for Steel-types, Protect to not get revenge killed by Trapinch and much more. Still worth a try though.
I know I may be late for this, but people are noticing how threatening Timburr actually is, with Bulk Up Guts sets coming back from the dead to handle Drifloon teams much better, as well as hitting most of the metagame really strong thanks to its fist coverage options netting the OHKO on Drifloon, and 2HKOing Mareanie and Oddish. Dude has pretty good bulk that allows it to withstand Vullaby's Brave Bird and counterreact, as well as revenge killing Pokemon really good with Mach Punch.
Lastly, I'd like to take a look at Krabby. Krabby hits really hard to many bulky Pokemon, netting 2HKOes on Spritzee and even Mareanie after Knock Off, which is a really big feat. However, that can only be even more threatening if Corphish is around. The double crab seen at Ekans shows Corphish and Krabby removing each other's checks and muscling through many of the bulkiest Pokemon, being able to win matches consistently. Outside of Water spam cores, Krabby functions best on Webs teams due to its rather below average Speed, and netting OHKO on both Pawniard and Vullaby, which are the biggest threats to Webs. I even made it function with Agility and does the work right with trapping support from Diglett + Parting Shot Pancham (people oughta try Pancham too right now, very solid Pokemon), outspeeding every known Pokemon and enabling it to clean teams.
Vulpix is probably the biggest threat to look out for in Little Cup right now, as Eject Pack sets are able to fire off a strong sun-powered Overheat able to 2HKO and OHKO bulkier threats such as Vullaby and Spritzee, and provide momentum for a trapper like Diglett or Trapinch (see below) to remove the respective Fire resist in the opposing team, be it Mareanie or Munchlax. The old bread and butter set is also no slouch providing eight turns of sun to abuse for both Vulpix and Oddish (see below), and Weather Ball is very strong and much more reliable than Fire Blast. This Pokemon lacks of any decent counterplay as stated above, and I believe it will keep rising even more to the point it becomes a very centralizing threat (if it had not become already) deserving of a suspect.
Oddish has seen a humongous amount of usage during the second half of Ekans thanks to its sun sweeper set based on Strength Sap + Growth, able to severely weaken threats such as Munchlax, Timburr, Mudbray, Corphish and Onix and scare every single one of them out, while having amazing bulk to resist important hits. A peculiarity that separates it from its long gone partner Cherubi is that it does not require to outspeed stuff, which allows it to give it an amazing Mareanie-esque bulk of 24/14/14 if invested correctly and it still hits like a truck thanks to a quite high Special Attack stat. Vulpix is a key partner since Ferroseed, while being able to outbulk it and beat it, it does too much damage on the long run by taking down its Eviolite and parlyzing it, thus its mandtory to remove it beforehand. While not as dominant under sun, Oddish still can accomplish its function of a very bulky Water and Ground check thanks to Strength Sap and the less reliable Sleep Powder to put important Pokemon able to put it in check such as Pawniard and Vullaby, and exert its role more reliably.
Needed to pinpoint this, but the reason Oddish is so hard to take down is due to the offensive nature of Little Cup, which has many Pokemon with amazing Attack stats and that stat translates into more than half Oddish's HP or completely replenishes its health, being able to keep doing its functions.
Arena Trap users are really important, specially Diglett which is back in the tracks trapping important Pokemon such as Mareanie, Pawniard (and even Spritzee!) thanks to its combination of Speed and utility options to help many teams, specifically sun teams, as Eject Pack Vulpix provides an insane amount of momentum + damage output to the Fire resists and easens Diglett and Trapinch job by trapping both Mareanie and Munchlax effortlessly. That aside, let's look at both of them.
Diglett keeps being the annoyance it has always been by trapping important Pokemon such as Onix and Mareanie, which despite being many few Pokemon in Diglett's trapping pool, these are key Pokemon in the metagame. On Trapinch's side, the pool is way bigger thanks to its ability to tailor its movepool according to the team's needs. Trapinch can take out more key Pokemon in Onix, Ferroseed, Munchlax, Pawniard in a quite reliable way, and can revenge kill stuff thanks to First Impression, meaning you could lose an important Pokeon to make a comeback in the battle.
Galarian Ponyta is underrated in a metagame where Drifloon tries to make use of Toxic Spikes whenever possible, being able to scare a good portion of the metagame out. It can run a plethora of sets and is a threat few teams account for. But I would like to show you how mixed sets can be a pain in the neck.
Ponyta-Galar @ Life Orb
Ability: Pastel Veil
Level: 5
EVs: 76 Atk / 236 SpA / 196 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Psychic
- Dazzling Gleam / Mystical Fire
- Low Kick
- Protect
Ability: Pastel Veil
Level: 5
EVs: 76 Atk / 236 SpA / 196 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Psychic
- Dazzling Gleam / Mystical Fire
- Low Kick
- Protect
Low Kick is probably the best coverage option Galarian Ponyta provides in mixed, being able to OHKO Munchlax in the spot and 2HKO Onix effortlessly. This feat is capitalized inmensely in Sun teams, where the Vulpix + Oddish core appreciates either Munchlax or Ferroseed gone thanks to Ponyta's efforts. However, its 4MSS blocks the path for it to be really prominent, as it wants to run Dazzling Gleam for Vullaby, Mystical Fire for Steel-types, Protect to not get revenge killed by Trapinch and much more. Still worth a try though.
I know I may be late for this, but people are noticing how threatening Timburr actually is, with Bulk Up Guts sets coming back from the dead to handle Drifloon teams much better, as well as hitting most of the metagame really strong thanks to its fist coverage options netting the OHKO on Drifloon, and 2HKOing Mareanie and Oddish. Dude has pretty good bulk that allows it to withstand Vullaby's Brave Bird and counterreact, as well as revenge killing Pokemon really good with Mach Punch.
Lastly, I'd like to take a look at Krabby. Krabby hits really hard to many bulky Pokemon, netting 2HKOes on Spritzee and even Mareanie after Knock Off, which is a really big feat. However, that can only be even more threatening if Corphish is around. The double crab seen at Ekans shows Corphish and Krabby removing each other's checks and muscling through many of the bulkiest Pokemon, being able to win matches consistently. Outside of Water spam cores, Krabby functions best on Webs teams due to its rather below average Speed, and netting OHKO on both Pawniard and Vullaby, which are the biggest threats to Webs. I even made it function with Agility and does the work right with trapping support from Diglett + Parting Shot Pancham (people oughta try Pancham too right now, very solid Pokemon), outspeeding every known Pokemon and enabling it to clean teams.
Gonna post some heat real quick:
Hatenna @ Eviolite
Ability: Magic Bounce
Level: 5
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 20 HP / 156 Def / 148 SpA / 12 Spd / 124 Spe
Bold Nature
- Psychic
- Nuzzle
- Mystical Fire
- Giga Drain / Dazzling Gleam
This thing is surprisingly not that bad. You might wonder why you would use this over Natu, since its slower and not quite as strong, but hatenna has both nuzzle and the lack of a rock weakness. Natu can't really beat Onix 1v1, but Hatenna can with giga drain. It also beats ferroseed with mystical fire. Knock is annoying ofc but you can still stop Twave / Spikes / Rocks etc. You can even switch in on most toxic spikes users too except for koffing with the gas ability
Biggest thing is that Natu generally can't do much to the incoming vullaby unless it has Dgleam, but if it has Dgleam it has to give up giga drain or U-turn. Hatenna has access to Nuzzle which is extremely good for vull, pawn, ponyta, floon, etc. that switch in.
EV spread is probably bad but basically its enough to outspeed Mareanie while having enough def EVs for Onix.
You can also use Healing Wish somewhere too because that is another thing it has over Natu.
quick replay: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8lc-1053133489
Hatenna @ Eviolite
Ability: Magic Bounce
Level: 5
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 20 HP / 156 Def / 148 SpA / 12 Spd / 124 Spe
Bold Nature
- Psychic
- Nuzzle
- Mystical Fire
- Giga Drain / Dazzling Gleam
This thing is surprisingly not that bad. You might wonder why you would use this over Natu, since its slower and not quite as strong, but hatenna has both nuzzle and the lack of a rock weakness. Natu can't really beat Onix 1v1, but Hatenna can with giga drain. It also beats ferroseed with mystical fire. Knock is annoying ofc but you can still stop Twave / Spikes / Rocks etc. You can even switch in on most toxic spikes users too except for koffing with the gas ability
Biggest thing is that Natu generally can't do much to the incoming vullaby unless it has Dgleam, but if it has Dgleam it has to give up giga drain or U-turn. Hatenna has access to Nuzzle which is extremely good for vull, pawn, ponyta, floon, etc. that switch in.
EV spread is probably bad but basically its enough to outspeed Mareanie while having enough def EVs for Onix.
You can also use Healing Wish somewhere too because that is another thing it has over Natu.
quick replay: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8lc-1053133489
Last edited:
yahallo little cuppers, just thought I would post my Charmander sun team, that guy is pretty good. Unfortunately, I did lose with him in SPL but since then I've improved the team with some key modifications. Charmander in Sun can do pretty some nasty things and its hard to revenge kill because it's so fast. Sun's still pretty strong in general and arguably broken
Sample Replay: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8lc-1050228419
Sample Replay: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8lc-1050228419
Free dcae (Vulpix) @ Heat Rock
Ability: Drought
Level: 5
EVs: 52 HP / 196 SpA / 236 Spe
Timid Nature
- Overheat
- Flame Charge
- Will-O-Wisp
- Energy Ball
Diglett @ Life Orb
Ability: Arena Trap
Level: 5
EVs: 36 HP / 236 Atk / 236 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
- Sucker Punch
- Sunny Day
Oddish @ Eviolite
Ability: Chlorophyll
Level: 5
EVs: 236 SpA / 76 SpD / 196 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Growth
- Strength Sap
- Giga Drain
- Sludge Bomb
Timburr @ Eviolite
Ability: Iron Fist
Level: 5
EVs: 196 Atk / 156 Def / 156 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Mach Punch
- Drain Punch
- Ice Punch
- Defog
Charmander @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Solar Power
Level: 5
EVs: 44 HP / 12 Def / 196 SpA / 236 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fire Blast
- Flamethrower
- Weather Ball
- Sleep Talk
Pawniard @ Eject Button
Ability: Defiant
Level: 5
EVs: 156 Atk / 36 Def / 116 SpD / 196 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Sucker Punch
- Iron Head
- Thief
Ability: Drought
Level: 5
EVs: 52 HP / 196 SpA / 236 Spe
Timid Nature
- Overheat
- Flame Charge
- Will-O-Wisp
- Energy Ball
Diglett @ Life Orb
Ability: Arena Trap
Level: 5
EVs: 36 HP / 236 Atk / 236 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
- Sucker Punch
- Sunny Day
Oddish @ Eviolite
Ability: Chlorophyll
Level: 5
EVs: 236 SpA / 76 SpD / 196 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Growth
- Strength Sap
- Giga Drain
- Sludge Bomb
Timburr @ Eviolite
Ability: Iron Fist
Level: 5
EVs: 196 Atk / 156 Def / 156 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Mach Punch
- Drain Punch
- Ice Punch
- Defog
Charmander @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Solar Power
Level: 5
EVs: 44 HP / 12 Def / 196 SpA / 236 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fire Blast
- Flamethrower
- Weather Ball
- Sleep Talk
Pawniard @ Eject Button
Ability: Defiant
Level: 5
EVs: 156 Atk / 36 Def / 116 SpD / 196 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Sucker Punch
- Iron Head
- Thief
interesting team Serene Grace, definitely agree with the sentiment sun is broken. i'd recommend people try different stuff and breaking the mold on what sun actually is, idt we've come close to exploring how good it really is
I’m a firm believer that sun is just a broken archetype in LC. There was a lot of laughing at the idea of sun without Cherubi being broken but there’s always going to be ways to abuse it. Oddish is just a really good Pokémon and the only real counter is ferroseed, it has ways of breaking past everything else. Vulpix is also just a generally good mon, having access to a solid speed tier and strong fire stabs that are only really absorbed by 3 mons. And the cherry on top, trappers provide any extra needed support, be it through Overheat + Eject pack or just eliminating possible threats by getting them in safely. This isn’t even touching on charmander, which is a one trick pony but it just goes to show that sun support is so good that there’s no reason not to run it. All of this as a package is just too much to focus on in the builder unless you’re running ferro / mar / lax every match and even then trappers can ruin your day. Saving Vulpix because it’s a good fire type was and is still super dumb.
Edit: Don’t know how feasible it is to act on this with the forthcoming changes to LC and SS in general, but I don’t see sun getting any more balanced once things are added, especially because we know we’re getting bulbasaur.
Edit: Don’t know how feasible it is to act on this with the forthcoming changes to LC and SS in general, but I don’t see sun getting any more balanced once things are added, especially because we know we’re getting bulbasaur.
Last edited:
Yeah, I agree with what you said here. I often find myself in a one sided contest with Sun teams. The core you mentioned is the only thing ive seen be able to reliably take on that onslaught from sun and trappers make everything harder paired with eject pack Vulpix. I am interested to see how this is gonna be handled, since bulbasaur will be coming out eventually and that will a big buff coming for sun teams.
