Metagame Metagame Discussion Thread


Meowth @ Life Orb
Ability: Technician
Level: 5
EVs: 236 Atk / 36 SpA / 196 Spe
Lonely Nature
IVs: 19 HP
- Fake Out
- Feint
- Double-Edge
- Water Pulse

MEOWTH IS BACK BOYS AND GIRLS!
Double Edge is FREED!
Water Pulse is FREED!
Knock Off is FREED!

Ofc hypnosis is still viable... if you like living dangerously.


Other cool new things :
Timburr can run Knock and Defog simultaneously now which is cool.

Pancham gets Knock again and is lowkey worth running as a second fighter now. Abra/Gastly no longer dominate LC and not a lot of teams have answers for fightspam. Iron Fist Pancham is essentially Iron Fist Timburr but with better stats (but no mach). It also gets parting shot which can be fun ig.

Bulbasaur gets Knock now for... reasons? I don't recall it having it before. I suppose it could function as an oddish/foongus/mareanie hybrid with a set like this:
Bulbasaur @ Eviolite
Ability: Overgrow
Level: 5
EVs: 156 HP / 44 Atk / 204 Def / 76 SpD
Timid Nature
- Knock Off
- Giga Drain
- Sleep Powder / Synthesis
- Sludge Bomb

It seems fun at least. 23/14/14 defenses and is able to be speed crept up to 14. It could be useful. IDK. I really just wanted to talk about Meowth if I'm being honest.
 

ghost

formerly goldenghost
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LC Leader
After playing a few dozen suspect ladder games, it's clear to me that there's another broken mon to deal with once Veils is gone - Cutiefly. Cutiefly is the best mon in the tier by far and in a post-home meta it has increasingly found ways to circumvent its already limited checks. The only decent mons that comfortably switch into Cutiefly repeatedly are Ponyta and Ferroseed; Ponyta is very good at this but is worn down by rocks, limiting its longevity, and Ferroseed is naturally worn down over the course of a match by being relied upon to eat hits from several threats. Cutiefly regaining Roost from Home has made it much harder to deal with; where you could wear it down with hazards and neutral hits before, Cutie can now comfortably switch into standard Timburr (which mostly runs dual fighting stab and Knock) and roost off damage, as well as boosting in the face of weaker special attackers and healing off damage. Evio Cutiefly can even win 1v1 vs Mareanie if it gets a QD on the switch, as Shield Dust prevents Sludge Bomb from ever poisoning and thus makes it easier to boost in Mareanie's face. Cutie can even run Bug Buzz or Substitute to wear down or set up on non-Iron Head Ferro. Non-Iron Head Ferro doesn't even beat Cutie 1v1, as Cutie can still boost and beat it.

EDIT: On the point of Webs - while Webs aren't as strong as they were last gen because the best Webs abusers either got worse (Bunnelby) or are gone altogether (GastBra), Webs are still quite good, and the only reason not to run them is the opportunity cost of not running Roost, U-Turn, or Quiver Dance on Cutie. In this way Cutiefly is also an elite support mon that should slot onto every single team.

The unfortunate thing about losing Cutiefly from the tier is that we would have a serious dearth of fast special attackers - Bulk Up Rufflet gets even more ridiculous! But right now I think it's too strong, and I hope the council and the community will take a closer look if they haven't already.
 
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I personally disagree with Cutie being too much. Maybe I'm just bad but QD Cutie just seems...lackluster? I mean it can't really set up on much in my experience. A quick look through the viability rankings S-A and Cutie can really only set up on Frillish, Trapinch, Diglett, and perhaps Spritzee, but only if it has roost and is healthy. Trapinch has a small chance to kill you with rock slide still. Timburr can get you potential setup, but you have to scout the set first. 76 SpD Evio Vullaby is never OHKO'd by Moonblast, so you really can't 100% set up on that either. I suppose you can set up on Vulpix, but its going to get Aviel up anyway, so that might be trade off you don't want.

Like you said, Sticky Webs is good, but not nearly as bad as it has been in the past due to Vullaby being Vullaby, Defog Timburr, Regaining Rapid Spin Shellder, etc. I also don't think it slots onto every team either. It offers little defensive synergy and can't really be used as a fighting check fairy like Spritzee can for example as it cannot switch in and check DD Scraggy, and fears Stone Edge / Gunk Shot from Pancham. If you want to use a U-turn Roost set with Moonblast / Psychic, that's fine, but I don't think a U-turner that is weak to stealth rock and isn't particularly bulky or strong without set up to be all that ban worthy but rather filling of a niche as a faster Spritzee with momentum.

Again, I could be wrong but whenever I put Cutie on a team it rarely did anything because there was a Ferro or Ponyta or Clear Smog Shellos on the enemy team, and if there wasn't, there was almost certainly a Pawniard which can also take one hit and KO back as well.

Personally I think Diglett is a bigger problem. It makes things like Croagunk, Chinchou, Stunky, Cufant, and Salandit borderline unuseable when they could actually be quite decent like Stunky as a fast special core breaker and Cufant as being one of 3 (maybe 4 with Meowth but it's movepool is not great) Steel types in LC. Like There are literally 0 Electric types in LC right now simply because Diglett exists and Floon was banned
 
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I really don't think qt is OP at all. Good, yes, however, Vullaby is way more lethal any day of the week and it barely gets a mention.

I still see chinchou all over the place and to your point about 0 electric types, there's only 7 in LC as is, and three of those are Pichu, Yamper and Toxel. Which leaves you with Joltik (not great), Chinchou (actually pretty good), Helioptile (also pretty good), and Elektrike (not great).

I don't see Dig as a huge problem, because there are enough priority moves to take advantage of that low defense and stupid (read aggrivating) sets like Iron Defense Mareanie. I think the meta is pretty good now, except for veils can go die in a ditch.
 
I have very rarely seen Chinchou on teams, and even if there are, it's low on the viabilty rankings to begin with because of Diglett and Ferroseed being everywhere. Helio was only used when floon was around and since then I haven't seen one since. Yapmer is actually the bulkiest Electric type we have in LC on the defensive side (slightly better than Chichou considering HP), and it actually counters non NP Vullaby quite well, as well as most Rufflet sets, which are rising in viability. What is holding it back is relying on Resttalk for recovery and the lack of Rattled.

Essentially those pokemon mentioned just simply cannot get a kill on the opposing team without dying in return, which is what bothers me. If I bring Stunky for Ponyta-G and kill it (like it's supposed to) oh well Stunky goes down as well. You have no power or ability to stop this, which feels really bad to play against. Your Spritzee killed Vullaby? Oh well now you can't use it for the Tmburr because diglett is now in.

I think Diglett makes Flying and Fighting spam cores do their job too easily. Combine that with the aforementioned pokemon just being unviable because of Diglett. Like, Cufant could be an additonal check to Cutiefly and even some Vullaby (sets without Heat Wave) but you just can't use it because of trapping.
 
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I'll give my thoughts on arena trap in the current meta.

Firstly trapping is centralising. Indeedee arena trap makes some ground weak mons like chinchou, croagunk, salandit and stunky much less viable/unviable. But that's not enough to warrant a ban because our tier will always be pretty centralising but still.
Then what have changed to make arena trap much less healthy?

Let's go back to gen7, when both trapinch and diglett were allowed. The first thing to notice is that those two trappers had 2 different uses. Diglett was merely used to punish fast offensive threats -like abra and gastly- that would be much less manageable without it. Whereas trapinch's role was to remove some mons with a defensive use (onix, pawniard?) in order to enable a lategame sweep with other mons once their checks and counters are gone. This difference explains why trapinch has been banned and why diglett didn't. Diglett was a way to balance the tier and then avoided the ban.
I don't think that trapinch's role changed much since gen7 so I believe that at least it should be banned. Diglett is different.

Now what's new in gen8? Dexit (and wooolooo!!).
What does it matter? Because most of our fastest offensive threats are gone (abra, gastly, staryu). Diglett, cutiefly, ponyta and maybe wingull only are left.
-Diglett can't reliably remove cutiefly because evio cutie lives rock slide from lo diglett and can use quiver dance/u-turn/sticky web. But cutiefly should be banned anyway...
-Ponyta can use flame charge to outspeed diglett, even though it needs 1 turn of setup.
-Wingull can't be trapped because it's a bird, even though rock slide ohkos non evio wingull.
-Diglett trapping diglett shouldn't be more than a meme lol.

All of this shows that diglett has less use as a punisher than before.

But then you'll ask. Why is diglett even used now?
Because I think that diglett's role has evolved since gen7. Now diglett isn't only used to punish fast mons, but also to trap defensive mons in order to open a windowcon. And diglett can do that job pretty well, as it's the fastest mon in the tier and it can hit hard with a lo. Basically, diglett can trap anything that is grounded and that doesn't have a prio (11/17 A/S rank mons in the VR). And it can ko most of them after knock off+some chip.
And you can very often save a diglett for later, even if he has 2hp left for a last ko.


These are the reasons why I believe that arena trap as a whole should be suspected (after cutiefly). Or maybe doing a 3-way suspect with "ban trapinch only", "ban arena trap" and "do not ban anything". Arena trap definetely is a concerning issue that we have to look at.
Keep in mind that I'm not asking for a ban. Even though I would probably vote ban myself, I only ask for a suspect test now because we have to be clear about arena trap.

Thanks for reading. And sorry if I made some mistakes, I have no time to read my post once again.
I'll try to edit later if I can.
Edited
 
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I don't have anything to add to the suspect discussion, but I've been playing around with Grookey lately and it's pretty cool. 17 speed is a nice speed tier, it has some cool moves. grass type isn't too useful right now but it's not a huge weakness.

Grookey @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Overgrow
Level: 5
EVs: 236 Atk / 36 Def / 236 Spe
Jolly Nature
- U-turn
- Wood Hammer
- Knock Off
- Acrobatics

pretty cool turner. woodhammer is tough, u-turn helps scout. knock off is always usefull and acrobatics helps if you get your item knocked off, and also does a number on Timburr or any grass types you might run into. if you are no longer scarfed. it is pretty conditional but you could do worse. lowkick is nice for munchlax or onix or cufant or those things. hammer arm or drain punch are options too but drain punch is pretty weak non-stab and hammer arm lowers speed, low kick is also weak against a lot of LC mons who aren't heavy so you know nothings perfect.

Grookey @ Berry Juice
Ability: Overgrow
Level: 5
EVs: 36 HP / 236 Atk / 236 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Acrobatics
- Swords Dance
- Wood Hammer
- Drain Punch

im a simple man, i see SD and a 120 BP STAB move and 17 speed and I try it out. grookey has enough bulk to survive enough to pull off a SD and BJ helps it stay alive and boost acrobatics. wood hammer at +2 just absolutely shreds. it does have recoil which does limit your ability to just run through the universe, but Drain Punch at +2 can help with that. really likes having webs support so it doesn't scared of ponyta or cutiefly. hp at 22 for BJ. some damage calcs:

+2 236 Atk Grookey Wood Hammer vs. 196 HP / 20+ Def Eviolite Mareanie: 19-24 (79.1 - 100%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 236 Atk Grookey Drain Punch vs. 84 HP / 108+ Def Eviolite Ferroseed: 14-18 (63.6 - 81.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 236 Atk Grookey Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 156 Def Eviolite Timburr: 24-30 (100 - 125%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 236 Atk Grookey Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 76 Def Vullaby: 17-20 (73.9 - 86.9%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
236 Atk Grookey Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 52 HP / 20 Def Eviolite Dewpider: 14-18 (66.6 - 85.7%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (always OHKOs at +2)
+2 236 Atk Grookey Wood Hammer vs. 212 HP / 196+ Def Eviolite Spritzee: 16-21 (59.2 - 77.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock not as impressive but to give an idea of neutral opponents
+2 236 Atk Grookey Drain Punch vs. 20 HP / 204 Def Eviolite Cufant: 18-22 (75 - 91.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

it might even be possible to run a bulky subseeder set with like leech seed/sub/wood hammer/hammer arm (or knock off) w/eviolite, since there aren't many grass types in common use.
 
The LC Council Banned Gastly at the start of Gen 8 before Home was released. It was a worthwhile ban at the time due to Gastly being incredibly overwhelming with the limited pool of mons available. However Home has changed multiple things since then. Let's take a look at the reasoning behind Gastly being banned once more.

Gastly is among the most immediately threatening Pokemon in the tier due to a combination of its fantastic 19 special attack and 18 speed, strong STABs in Sludge Wave and Shadow Ball, and a plethora of coverage moves that includes Thunderbolt, Energy Ball, Fire Punch, Psychic, and Sucker Punch. It has improved enormously with the new generation due to what had previously been its primary counterplay in Pursuit getting removed, in addition to Knock Off having its distribution greatly lowered and several faster threats like Abra and Staryu disappearing. Life Orb Gastly in particular is able to OHKO the vast majority of Pokemon that aren't wielding Eviolite, as well as 2HKO most that do, allowing it to reliably get KOs almost every time it comes into play against teams that lack one of its select few checks. These checks have their usage dramatically skewed upwards, as the only other significant option to deal with Gastly is revenge-killing it with faster threats, all of which are unable to safely switch in and are generally less threatening than Gastly.
All of this reasoning was sound at the time, but as previously stated: home has changed multiple things since then.

Knock has been redistributed. Gastly can no longer switch into mons such as Timburr without fear anymore. Pawnaird can spam knock much more easily now, and Mareanie as well. While it wasn't a huge change I do think it would limit the number of switchin opportunities Gastly has now compared to back then. Pawnaird was very uncommon then, but it seeing much higher usage right now due to getting knock off back. Knock may not affect the Pawnaird vs Gastly matchup a lot, but Pawnaird being on more teams, and having sucker punch still hurts potential Gastly usage. Additionally, with hidden power removed Gastly can no longer spam Sub+HP Fight like it did the last generation. It could run Sub + Fire Punch specifically for Pawnaird, but at what cost?

This should be a familiar calc from last gen but a healthy Timburr now has the ability to revenge Gastly which is huge.
200 SpA Life Orb Gastly Psychic vs. 0 HP / 156 SpD Eviolite Timburr: 18-23 (75 - 95.8%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Possible damage amounts: (18, 18, 18, 18, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 23)


Additionally, Kanto Ponyta has returned to LC and is seeing high usage. At 19 speed Pony brings immediate offensive pressure that was really lacking at the time Gastly got banned. With 0 atk investment, Ponyta will still always OHKO a LO Gastly, so even the fast utility sets still pressure Gastly in a way that no other mon did at the time.

While we still lack a good switchin to Gastly, Gen 7 only had 2 true switchins: Grimer-A and Scarf Pawn. Scarf Pawn as we know would come in and trap it with pursuit, but wouldn't be able to touch sub HP Fight sets that subbed on the switch. Overall it was still a great switchin but not perfect. Grimer-A was also available but had a lot of weaknesses of it's own. Of course, when Trapinch came into play and was able to remove these threats, Trapinch was banned meaning that Gastly without switchins is a problem.

I think that the combination of these factors hinder Gastly, but not to the point where it is no longer broken. It will still be a very good wallbreaker with an excellent speed tier, but most importantly it won't have any switchins. I think it would be a good idea to keep discussing things like Gastly, and keep track of how additions like Home impact it's place in LC. If we get Alolan-Grimer back in a future update, while pursuit is no longer an option, it would be able to punish whatever switches in with a STAB knock off. We should keep discussing and thinking about Gastly and other banned mons as the meta changes and adapts with future updates.
 
The LC Council Banned Gastly at the start of Gen 8 before Home was released. It was a worthwhile ban at the time due to Gastly being incredibly overwhelming with the limited pool of mons available. However Home has changed multiple things since then. Let's take a look at the reasoning behind Gastly being banned once more.



All of this reasoning was sound at the time, but as previously stated: home has changed multiple things since then.

Knock has been redistributed. Gastly can no longer switch into mons such as Timburr without fear anymore. Pawnaird can spam knock much more easily now, and Mareanie as well. While it wasn't a huge change I do think it would limit the number of switchin opportunities Gastly has now compared to back then. Pawnaird was very uncommon then, but it seeing much higher usage right now due to getting knock off back. Knock may not affect the Pawnaird vs Gastly matchup a lot, but Pawnaird being on more teams, and having sucker punch still hurts potential Gastly usage. Additionally, with hidden power removed Gastly can no longer spam Sub+HP Fight like it did the last generation. It could run Sub + Fire Punch specifically for Pawnaird, but at what cost?

This should be a familiar calc from last gen but a healthy Timburr now has the ability to revenge Gastly which is huge.
200 SpA Life Orb Gastly Psychic vs. 0 HP / 156 SpD Eviolite Timburr: 18-23 (75 - 95.8%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Possible damage amounts: (18, 18, 18, 18, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 23)


Additionally, Kanto Ponyta has returned to LC and is seeing high usage. At 19 speed Pony brings immediate offensive pressure that was really lacking at the time Gastly got banned. With 0 atk investment, Ponyta will still always OHKO a LO Gastly, so even the fast utility sets still pressure Gastly in a way that no other mon did at the time.

While we still lack a good switchin to Gastly, Gen 7 only had 2 true switchins: Grimer-A and Scarf Pawn. Scarf Pawn as we know would come in and trap it with pursuit, but wouldn't be able to touch sub HP Fight sets that subbed on the switch. Overall it was still a great switchin but not perfect. Grimer-A was also available but had a lot of weaknesses of it's own. Of course, when Trapinch came into play and was able to remove these threats, Trapinch was banned meaning that Gastly without switchins is a problem.

I think that the combination of these factors hinder Gastly, but not to the point where it is no longer broken. It will still be a very good wallbreaker with an excellent speed tier, but most importantly it won't have any switchins. I think it would be a good idea to keep discussing things like Gastly, and keep track of how additions like Home impact it's place in LC. If we get Alolan-Grimer back in a future update, while pursuit is no longer an option, it would be able to punish whatever switches in with a STAB knock off. We should keep discussing and thinking about Gastly and other banned mons as the meta changes and adapts with future updates.
Stunky is also a fairly safe switchin to Gastly, especially without Hidden Power being around. I imagine LO Gleam still does a significant chunk. Has Sucker Punch, resists both STABs, with an Evio or BJ it can be fairly bulky, and reaches that same 18 speed tier. Scarf Cufant is also a decent check (although can't really switchin). Also Meowth being back is another good means to deal with Gastly. Also Gastly bring a nice balance to the meta in being able to beat Zigzagoon.

Overall though I wanted to speak about the last paragraph of this post and am also curious how this works with Smogon's tiering policy. Have pokemon who were banned in an earlier portion of a gen, ever been dropped back into legality (across all tiers, not just LC) as a massive change was introduced to a gen? Big one that comes to mind is in Gen4 and the introduction of HG/SS bringing in the National Dex and those threats, were bans reconsidered to adapt to the new situation?
 
Stunky is also a fairly safe switchin to Gastly, especially without Hidden Power being around. I imagine LO Gleam still does a significant chunk. Has Sucker Punch, resists both STABs, with an Evio or BJ it can be fairly bulky, and reaches that same 18 speed tier. Scarf Cufant is also a decent check (although can't really switchin). Also Meowth being back is another good means to deal with Gastly. Also Gastly bring a nice balance to the meta in being able to beat Zigzagoon.

Overall though I wanted to speak about the last paragraph of this post and am also curious how this works with Smogon's tiering policy. Have pokemon who were banned in an earlier portion of a gen, ever been dropped back into legality (across all tiers, not just LC) as a massive change was introduced to a gen? Big one that comes to mind is in Gen4 and the introduction of HG/SS bringing in the National Dex and those threats, were bans reconsidered to adapt to the new situation?
You are thinking of gen 3, not gen 4. Gen 4 had every Pokémon playable from the start. It was long ago and lower tiers were handled very differently(look at gen 3 UUBL), while to my knowledge OU did not unban anything. There is no real precedent to this situation, but unbanning things after the meta shifts is not really a novel concept, it's not unprecedented in modern lower tiers.
 

Shrug

is a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Championis a Past SCL Champion
LCPL Champion
thesis: i am arguing that the council ought to quickban cutiefly and then suspect rufflet.

WHY CUTIEFLY SHOULD JOIN DRIFLOON AND VULPIX-A IN THE GREAT SOYFACE MON TEAM IN THE SKY, INCLUDING A BUREAUCRATIC ARGUMENT TO SATISFY SMOGON U'S POKEMON POLITBURO PEDANTS

on the merits, cutiefly is extremely broken. the fast special attacking pivot set puts extreme pressure on opposing teams, its 19 speed giving it ample opportunity to fire off moonblasts or uturn to gain momentum while wearing down its few checks. this set can also set webs, nullifying one of its own most important checks (diglett) while removing the possibility of speedchecking medium-speed heavy hitters on the cutie user's team. the most common hazard removers (timburr and vullaby) cannot come in and eat a moonblast, making clearing a multi-stage and (in part because of the pressure exerted by the webs and cutiefly itself) often prohibitively difficult or costly process; bulky dedicated webs sets make removal nigh impossible while retaining much of cutiefly's attacking value. thus far ive neglected the the most immediately apparent example of cutiefly's unplayablity, the qd roost moonblast fourthmove set. it sets up with relative ease on a large portion of the metagame, including on necessary softchecks (mareiene) to the attacking pivots. the forth move either broadens the slate of mons cutie can set up on (substitute, charm) or reduces its need to do so in the first place (bug buzz, psychic). other sets (lo in particular) are usually worse but can be the most problematic for any given team, esp given the often taped-together nature of most cutiefly response plans.

if you dont believe me, look at the last few weeks of spl, or think seriously about your own building and playing. nearly every game had a cutiefly of some sort, determining the set of which occupied a good portion of early game resources in many matches. perhaps more importantly, each team had to pick from the dedicated set of cutiefly checks, a slim set among whom there are few seriously viable mons and fewer easily exploitable by combinations involving cutiefly itself. honedge resists its STABS and coverage, but it doesnt hit hard enough to be viable; munchlax eats moonblasts and shrugs off even boosted psychics, but is a target for knock offs; ponyta can stop a setup, but catch a uturn and it gets picked off for free. basically the two best checks to this are ferro and pawn, with an honorable mention for ponyta and mudbray. this is why every serious spl team in the later weeks included these mons in some combination. that these combinations were an explicit anti-cutie measure is something you'll have to believe, i guess, but i think everyone can see it: cutie is the most dangerous mon in many ladder games, tests etc. confide, recently returned to the lc room, told me after a friendly that he was rusty because he "couldnt build a team without cutiefly"; i responded that his read on the meta was exactly right.

now if you refer to first bold portion of this post's thesis statement you will see that i want to quickban cutiefly instead of suspecting it. i understand why you might be skeptical of the procedural elements at play here. i respect smogon law, subsection littlecup suspect rules / ban types / pokemon-removal mechanisms and when to implement which, and will lay out a case under the established guidelines for why a quickban would be here acceptable. I will reproduce them below:

rules said:
1. We will only consider quickbans immediately following major metagame shifts that are otherwise out of our control, e.g. a new generation.
2. When a topic is being seriously discussed for a quickban, it will be mentioned in the metagame discussion thread at least a week before the potential quickban so that non-council members can share their thoughts. However, if the council unanimously agrees a topic is so overwhelming that it shouldn't even warrant a basic discussion (think Scyther/Sneasel/Swirlix levels of powerful) then it will be autobanned, completely bypassing quickban discussion and voting. This will be determined with a swift informal vote at or around the time of the release.
3. If there have been no reasonable arguments against a quickban brought forth in the metagame discussion thread (note: "reasonable" is subjective, but we'll try to set this bar quite low), then the council will proceed to a vote.
4. For a topic to be quickbanned, at least 80% of the council must believe it is broken (12/15 members).
5. If this threshold is not reached, it will instead be suspected.
taking these point by point, we start with the hardest to clear: "we will only consider quickbans immediately following major metagame shifts that are otherwise out of our control". a cutiefly quickban would not be, in a strict calendar sense, "immediately" after the relevant imposed shift, here the introduction of Home. but that neglects the circumstances of lc tiering at the time. we banned vulpix-a first, it being novel and cutiefly having been balanced pre-home. after we had completed this suspect, we were relatively deep into spl. there is a commonly-accepted practice of not making major metagame shifts while that meta has been used for a large portion of a serious, important tournament, so we did not have access to the practice of banning cutiefly, or really anything, in that period. this should, therefore, freeze the period considered for application of the above statute, meaning logically a cutiefly quickban would be occurring immediately after the vulpix-a suspect in the relevant sense. helpfully for my cause, the author of the rules, the former tier leader, and the overall architect of lc tiering policy in gen 8 agrees with my interpretation here:

1584927232713.png


with that resolved, we move on to 2, which i am doing here w this post. on 3, 4, and 5, the other paragraphs in this section should persuade you (esp if you are a council member) that cutie is broken. if you think otherwise you belong with coconut in fail jail, but i feel pretty confident that if put to an up-down vote a supermajority of the council would vote to ban.

of course what i just explained is why a cutiefly quickban would be possible, not why it is desirable -- why we ought to do it. why is speed of the essence? lcpl is starting soon, and i dont want this forum's most prestigious and least acrimonious teamtour marred by a bad metagame. but, you may be asking, lcpl starts in -- i havent checked this, this date is approximate, just based on history here -- twelve weeks; surely we have time to do a suspect in that time. well, dear reader, i have a different mon i would like to propose we suspect instead.

WHY RUFFLET NEEDS TO GET THE AXE, OR: A CASE FOR NUCLEAR DISARMAMENT EXCEEDING CURRENT STANDARDS OF INTERNATIONAL TREATY OBLIGATIONS

the other mon that was absolutely terrifying to prepare for in spl was rufflet. the band set just goes fucking berserk. if you dont resist it it will kill you immediately. even if you resist brave bird your shit is going to get insanely rocked by close combat. the band set gets more opps to fire off attacks by bluffing scarf, which just runs through thinner offensive teams. bulk up gets boosts on nearly anything, shrugs off any attack from perhaps the best current set (WA RB) for the only real check to the other two sets, sets up against a ton of slower mons, etc.

it's probably worth establishing the differences between ruff in this meta and in gen 7. this meta is much slower. staryu, abra, gastly, mienfoo all went buh-bye, so band has more opportunities to fire its shit off. electric moves (mag in particular, but also stuff like star or gast thunderbolts) evapped off the earth, so BU has fewer things that threaten it after it picks up a head of steam. and scarf is less impeded by prio stuff like foo fake outs.

you can again see this in teamcomps for spl. onix is absolutely everywhere, it being the only even passable resist to brave bird. you can run like honedge? but have fun just getting chunked and firing some shit off for 18% damage into a vullaby or a mudbray. guessing the set puts you under extreme pressure: get it wrong, youve given up a turn and lost. you're stuck duct-taping together checks for its various sets, guessing based on teamcomp, accepting defeat if you lose. or, he hasnt brought it; or, he has missed.

the misses! one of our human biases in this game is an inability to properly factor in the accumulated probabilities of this game, relate them to probabilities of wincons and so on. maybe when the machines take over internet pokemon, dundies brain fused with the google go-playing ai to create the perfect mix of deep strat thought and clicking instinct, we will understand how to play based on percentages that arent 50 or 50. what im trying to say is that we all sorta play rufflet straight up, as in dont base our plays off of misses. this makes games fucking infuriating. as the rufflet player, you're clenching in your seat every time you click brave bird. as the person trying to defend your team, you're left hoping that a 20% will take your least-bad option into a passable one, but you cant count on this. if youve brought in onix, you're hoping not to eat a band cc, or see a bu right in your face. the only way you can really avoid this is to overstack against it, but that contibutes to obvious matchup problems. basically, you're taking your fate out of your hands at the team selection stage (how heavy do i prep?), at the countering phase (guess the set ingame), at the individual move stage (do i bring my onix in on this band cc?), and at the actual move stage (will this shit hit?). it's rng-based as well as overpowered.

this mon should be gone before lcpl. the counterargument here would be: what if the cutiefly qb results in a changed meta favorable to checking rufflet? but actually trying to game this out doesnt really lead to anything. without cutie the special attackers and foo will come back? hustle brave bird will be easier to switch into? we'll just be losing a fast special attacker in a time of great need. ruff will become more dangerous.

in short, qb cutie, suspect ruff, save lcpl. pce.
 

Berks

has a Calm Mind
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QD Roost Cutie is the new Recycle Drifloon: easy to set up, theoretically checkable but practically impossible to stop after two turns. Also like Drifloon, it is largely unfazed by relevant priority, extremely threatening even to its checks (u-turn potential!), and often runs other viable moves than its best set to increase variability. Unlike Drifloon, those other sets are extremely potent (lo cutie is not a cm floon) and great at supporting teams (webs and uturn come to mind much earlier than bp and tailwind floon). Get it outta here
 

ghost

formerly goldenghost
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LC Leader
I think there is very little disagreement even in the community at large that Cutie is broken. I do think it would be a little strange not to suspect it given that it's been around the whole time, but if the council is unanimous in believing it's banworthy, then I don't see a lot of reason to waste time on a suspect test. Cutie did get a pretty important tool from Home, Roost, which enables the Evio QD sets and makes pivot sets more durable too. I don't think this is like Drifloon where a serious anti-ban undercurrent exists - me and a few others have been on the "Cutie is broken" train for at least a few weeks now.

As for Rufflet, that mon occupies a weird space. I pretty strongly dislike Rufflet and Wingull because they feel like RNG cannons, and while I don't believe Wingull is broken this gen, the insane power of Hurricane/Hustle Brave Bird often just put it in god/zarel's hands as to whether the mon single-handedly wins the game or not. I can see Rufflet as being suspect-worthy on the basis that its combination of sheer power and set-up potential mean that the reward for gambling with Hustle far outweighs the risk. Band Rufflet creates 50/50s that can end the game in a single turn, as if you switch into Onix (the only mon eating banded Brave Bird) and eat a Close Combat instead, Rufflet is likely to kill one or two mons the next time it comes in too. Bulk Up Rufflet can boost through almost anything, and the rarer Hone Claws takes Hustle misses out of the picture. There are far too few fast special attackers in the tier to handle it, especially after Cutie goes - it's basically the Ponytas and Chinchou, and Chinchou is a mediocre pick otherwise. My one concern here is that the broader community (not involved in SPL) probably does not share this same understanding of Rufflet as a threat, and some heart and minds may need to be won over here.

I lean toward both getting the hammer, but am pro-QB for Cutie and pro-suspect for Rufflet.
 
Cutie has been broken for weeks.

Cutie is far more centralizing than Aviel was and is more difficult to outplay because it can run so many different sets. I run a max hp max spd ferro as a dedicated cutie answer on some teams and it gets blasted by LO Bug Buzz if I switch into it. I can only safely switchin and force it out one time if it clicks bug buzz on the switch. That's insane.

Rufflet is also extremely broken. It has no safe switchin. Onix is incredibly easy to trap with trapinch and a chinchou fully dedicated to stopping physical birds can't even stand up to a Band Rufflet set. Rufflet (any set really) + NP Vull forms a terrifying birdspam core that no team can realistically stand up against.

252+ Atk Choice Band Hustle Rufflet Brave Bird vs. 236 HP / 212+ Def Eviolite Chinchou: 12-15 (44.4 - 55.5%) -- 82% chance to 2HKO
Possible damage amounts: (12, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15)

Never mind the fact that no one would ever run this chou set because it's so slow but it can't even safely switchin to Band Rufflet. Never mind the fact that it's a guaranteed 2HKO on a 27/14 resist after rocks. This thing has stupid swing potential in games. If you think you're worse than X player and have no way of outbuilding them bring a rufflet. If you play it correctly the game will swing your way 80% of the time.

This is the guy who says sun isn't broken and veils weren't broken saying these mons are broken. I'm usually very anti-ban but these things are stupid dumb.

To clarify on the sun point I said it was bellsprouts wball/sludge/sbeam coverage last gen that was broken while bulb and oddish weren't broken. This gen I think bulb/cherubi going would've been far better than Vulpix but that's an entirely different discussion. I do not think full sun is healthy, and banning vulpix keeps the true problem of sun around because you just setup manual sun with heat rock and blast through matchups that are incredibly underprepared while if sun is around (even without sprout/bulb) you still consider it in the building process.

Also... not gonna lie. Manual sun right now is low-key a problem with so many mons missing from LC. Sturdy Magnemite, Sashbra, and Scarf Gastly (as a last resort and hoping the opposing bellsprout was modest) could all answer sun last gen to an extent. All of these mons were also good in their own right and just existed. We don't have any of those now. Manual sun with Solar Blade Ponyta and Bulbasaur being a better Bellsprout is terrifying. I'd rather face off against regular sun without Bulb than have to worry about Bulbasaur rn with regards to building. Honestly, I wouldn't even be mad at a chlorophyll ban. These are crazy times in LC with so many mons missing. I think we really took sashbra for granted last gen. Sweeping through teams is so much easier now with it gone, and it's showing.

Heres some replays for those that don't think it's a problem
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8lc-1084440768-9qi5h08db9ef6yzaqb5zueg9hzbftv8pw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8lc-1083763996
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8lc-1083766458
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8lc-1084158143

Look at how much it shifts momentum. Look at how broken fire/grass coverage is. We literally don't have the answers that existed last gen.
 
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Ok so let's talk about cutie, rufflet, arena trap and manual sun.


I absolutely agree to qban cutie.

Cutie is so strong, a mon with 19 speed, good spatk and nice movepool like mblast, qdance (so good for stats), psy (for poison) and with home they released one fucking strong move for cutie like roost. There are also a lot of sets like evio defensive qdance with mblast, qdance, psychic/sub/charm roost, sweb defensive with mblast, sweb, roost, uturn/psychic/stun spore, sash sweb switcheroo/stun spore, light clay with screens, orb sweb with bug buzz to lure ferro or eball to do ohko for corp, onix, you can also use COVET or THIEF to steal evio ferro lmaoo.

A lot of good moves, good coverage, also good ability (shield dust to help the sweep), hard to determine at preview what set it is. I really don't know why some people says to not ban him lol, the other reason is also that it takes not so much from sr (this helps to boost with qdance and recover life) like volcarona (another qdance user) takes in sm ou but worse cuz *4 weaknesses to rock. Another good reason to ban it, is that defoggers like vulla and timburr die against it and they don't have recovery move (except roost vulla or bjuice but it takes a lot from sr), timburr can't drain so well cuz cutie resistance to fight is *4 and that is why it is so strong.

Also the "counters/checks" are few like ferro (giga isn’t a good recovery move and can take damage from mblast or can be trapped by trapinch spower or if in range by diglett), pawn (no recovery move, can be trapped also), ponyta (can be trapped), shellos.
Also webs give a lot of power to mons like rufflet, croagunk, mudbray, nplot spritzee. You need to run sedge on timburr to lure it (it can also miss lmao or pjab lmao) and that is why all ferro are using iron head.
Without cutie bye bye croagunk, stunky, also nplot draining kiss spritzee (but not nplot troom spritz still bad against ferro) which were quite annoying pretty mu based. Also nplot vulla benefits about webs imo, sometimes you need 3 checks for nplot vulla or just 2 priorities mon (timburr + corp), rufflet, cutie and vulla limit teambuilding and in ss we have less good mons than sm.
So yeah I see a lot of advantages of banning cutie.
That are the resons why cutie should be quick banned, I hope in 1- 2 weeks.


I disagree with Shrug to suspect Rufflet before lcpl, as I said in lc discord chat.

Rufflet is stronger atm also because it can avoid webs and can benefit of it, and we have only 2 good checks for flying like onix and pawn that can be also trapped in core with dig/trap and pawn is still bad to check rufflet. There are also a lot of sets like cband, cscarf, bulk up with sub or spower, bjuice set with agility, good coverage and stats, also nice speed in a meta where we dont have a lot of speed mons.

With cutie out rufflet isn’t so strong or maybe you lose a special attacker but most of rufflets are in core with cutiefly and so with sweb up is strong cuz the defoggers (timburr-vullaby) dies to both rufflet and cutie, and you can also outspeed a lot of mons (like onix, pawn).
We need to see how the meta will change with ban cutie and maybe rufflet’suspect will be up not before lcpl but during lcpl imo.
Maybe I suppose with qban cutie we will have more fight usages also less nplot vulla usage and nplot spritz usage cuz webs were pretty good for them, the return of farfe and oddish usages, less usage from koffing but it will be still good for checking fights.
So yeah we must see how the meta will change with cutie ban to determine a rufflet suspect.


Arena Trap.

I saw in these weeks a lot of people saying that dig/trap/arena trap should be suspected/banned before qban cutie.
Well I don't think arena trap should be banned, a lot of people says that arena trap should be banned because with that, rufflet is so strong, I don't think so, rufflet will be strong also if you ban arena trap cuz can do a lot of damage to his checks (spower/turn also bbird chip loool).
Arena trap is less important than last gen cuz in last gen there were a lot of offensive and speed mons (for example abra + gastly) all trapped by dig, but in this meta we have less speed offensive mons but more defensive mon, so trap is good only against mareanie, onix, and you need to koff them to kill (except by evio dig special), so I don't think it's strong but maybe it can help the meta atm. The only reason is with vulla, specially nplot vulla. Nplot vulla + dig /trap is so good, you need to play smart against them if you have onix or pawn to check vulla, this is the only good reason for people that think arena trap should be banned. I don't think it should be suspected/ banned, you need only to play smart against that and using teams with 1 priority + 2 checks for vulla.


Manual Sun isn't good or maybe is hard to pivot. You need a lot of support mons to sweep with bulbasaur. The main reason cuz you think it is strong it's about bulba coverage (with growth, giga, sludge and weather is so strong), also with good defensive and offensive stats. For example arena trap can be cool against manual sun (trapping sun setters like ponyta, diglett.....), there are also a lot of good checks like vulla, pony, pawn, pony-galar, wynaut, croagunk, you just need to decrease sun turns (4 sometimes, heat rock mons are shit generally free trapped mons), but yeah sometimes it's hard to counter that also because bulba is really good against priorities like ajet and mpunch, you just need to not give bulba set up with growth and bulba can setup only against corp, mareanie, frillish, mudbray, spritzee, and also when you set up you lose 1 important turn of sun so I don't think it is so strong. It’s fun to use but hard to pivot, pretty mu based imo.
 
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Coconut

W
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LC Leader
Hey folks, just want to reiterate that if you have a serious qualm with Cutiefly being banned, now is your chance to make a post explaining why. The council is likely going to move forward with a Quickban before LCPL, so if you have something to contribute to this conversation, now would be a good time to make that post.
 
WRT Cutiefly, I would like to toss out the idea of a Quiver Dance ban instead of a full ban for Cutiefly. I know policy will definitely not allow for that but the only way to ever create change is to constantly bring ideas to the table. Last gen saw a staple LC mon Porygon get banned over a unique move that was what made it broken. Cutiefly will likely have the same fate this gen. I would like to mention the well-known fact that Cutiefly is the only mon in the tier that gets Quiver Dance just like Porygon was the only one to have Z-Conversion. We all know that Quiver Dance is the problem and without it it is much more manageable. Calm Mind sets could pose a similar problem but scarfers would be able to easily stop it in it's track unlike Quiver Dance.


For a less dreary topic let's talk about something fun like... Natu!

Natu @ Life Orb
Ability: Magic Bounce
Level: 5
EVs: 196 SpA / 76 SpD / 196 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 19 HP / 0 Atk
- Dazzling Gleam
- Heat Wave
- Psychic
- Substitute

Timid or Modest can be used, I've been using modest on webs but Timid doesn't change any of the important rolls I could think of off the top of my head and I do truly feel that Timid LO Natu can have a place on certain teams.

I've been playing around with LO Natu and actually am quite surprised at the results. LO Natu hits like a truck and has perfect coverage. Ponyta-G runs a similar set with mystical fire, dgleam, and psychic, but mystical fire really lacks the punch heat wave does. Flying typing lets it still do work even if webs are up which is something that can hamper pony-g.

Sub+Heat Wave is great for Pawn especially with rocks up or chip dmg. This is actually one of the rolls where timid/modest matters as Modest has a 75% chance to ko pawn after rocks while timid only has a 6.3% chance. Of course Modest does tie with pawn but if you're running modest you really should be running webs.

Natu also has magic bounce which can be nice for making opponents have to think harder about clicking something like sticky web or stealth rock. LO can't really switch in to bounce things safely, but it still can switch into the occasional ferro with some good prediction and do some work. I don't think Natu is better than Pony overall but I do think it has a slight edge in some areas and can carve out a decent niche in the current webs heavy meta.

Also adding this in as an edit because I just had it happen in a match, not dying to First Impression from trapinch is nice. You still take like 63% but with no evio I'll take that every day of the week. Also not being trapped is nice too.
 
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Fiend

someguy
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Small post but I'm looking for people's lists of the top 15 pokemon in LC in order. Dm me on discord (Fiend#8794) or here on smogon. I'll make a follow up post once I get about 20 lists (I currently have 10). If you're concerned about counterteaming or whatever in LCPL this info won't be public and I'm not sharing it.
 
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risi

miao
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
Edit: just realized that this was already a set made by KSG, sorry. ig you guys can hear my dumb thoughts on it too lol
Farfetch'd-Galar @ Berry Juice
Ability: Scrappy
Level: 5
EVs: 20 HP / 236 Atk / 236 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- Brave Bird
- Swords Dance / Defog
- Covet

I came across this memey Farfetch'd set on the ladder a while ago, and it's pretty cool. The basic idea behind it was that since Farfetch'd is kind of frail, you end up having to run Berry Juice to let it live a hit or two. However, afterwards you don't have any recovery. The solution (sort of): Covet Farfetch'd to steal the opponent's Eviolite or Berry Juice to let Farfetch'd live longer and aggravate the opponent. MOST of the time, you will end up stealing an Eviolite or Berry Juice, but on the off chance that you end up getting a Choice Scarf or Life Orb, Farfetch'd can still take advantage of it and use it to sweep. The drawback to running Covet is that you don't get to run Knock Off, or if you do, you can't run Swords Dance or Defog. idk, but it might be a set worth mentioning.
 
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fatty

is a Tiering Contributor
NUPL Champion
Glad to see ruffles gone by such a huge margin that meta was absolutely terrible. I’m inclined to believe there’s only up from here but I definitely think there’s work to do. The metagame is probably better left alone for the rest of lcpl, but sooner rather than later I think arena trap needs to be next on the docket. There’s essentially no reason not to run one of pinch or diglett and I think the metagame will suffer. Trapping has notoriously been a hot topic for lc. Peoples definitions of broken are often warped when talking about less traditionally broken threats and oftentimes the argument borders on metagame preference rather than anything else. Personally, I don’t think there’s any opportunity cost to running these mons and everything to gain from making sure eliminating at least one threat per match. Diglett and pinch are super splashable, very consistent, and warp the meta around them to a gross extent.
 

Max Carvalho

Que os jogos comecem
I've seen a few people say that trapping isn't that strong in this metagame due to the absence of many fast attackers such as Abra. The thing is that these trappers can be useful in every single game against pretty much every single major threat in LC. Despite most players that include diglett or trapinch in their teams most likely thinking about key threats that these Pokemon can check in their teambuilding process - such as getting Pawniard KO'ed to allow a choice Rufflet sweep when it was allowed -, if the opportunity arises you may trap a weakened wall or anything else that wasn't the reason why you included the trapper in the first place. Basically the sheer utility for the team trappers provide is immense, and guaranteed in every single case. It shouldn't really care if the metagame needs it, or LC right now isn't too much centralising because of trapping: the ability is broken (switching-in is fundamental to pretty much any counterplay tactic in-battle) and shows minimal counterplay against its two main wielders.

Diglett is the fastest unboosted Pokemon in the tier, offers many different forms of utility to its team and the only skill that using this Pokemon in your team requires is pretty much bringing it as a check most of the times, because he can't switch-in. That's it. If you are able to do that, and just that, he will aid you immensely for the victory, whatever his set is. Goes without saying Diglett's movepool is amazing.

Some may say that there are counterplay options to diglett in the form of specific sets, such as Flame Charge Ponyta and Rock Polish Pawniard. While these set options surely allow these Pokemon not to be checked by diglett, it's not like they completely take out Diglett's trapping presence for the remainder of the game. Obviously Diglett can still trap these Pokemon if they never manage to set up, and even if they do, if Diglett still manages to trap and kill something else (which, again, players know it happens in most of the games) it did its job already.

If Diglett's speed allows it to be quite versatile in terms of what it is trapping each game, Trapinch great attack stat and bulk makes him overall the most reliable option for many threats that Diglett can't always take for granted. Access to First Impression made wonders for this Pokemon, allowing him to check, if weakened enough, otherwise very problematic threats without it. Quite frankly, even if Trapinch cannot trap as many different Pokemon as Diglett, I think it is safe enough to say that, against Trapinch, the ones that are usually trapped simply cannot do anything. He's almost as easy to slap in any team as Diglett is and definitely showcases how broken the ability is for the metagame.
 

risi

miao
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
hello! I have a few things I’d like to add to the current discussion about traps. I'm not an experienced lc player though, so feel free to ignore this. sorry about how disorganized my thoughts are, its pretty bad :c

Personally, I feel that traps are broken and deserve a suspect. In most games, they are able to remove at least 1 Pokemon completely from the opponent’s team, and there are few drawbacks to running them, as Diglett and Trapinch are pretty versatile and fit on most teams. There is little counterplay to trapping, as you can’t swap out and most of the biggest trapper targets can’t 1v1 Diglett or Trapinch once they come in. Although an argument can be made that trappers can’t hard switch into most of the mons they trap and have to wait for a free switch, (diglett can’t just hard into onix, pawn, ponyta or mareanie usually, trapinch can’t hard into mareanie, chinchou, ponyta, or pawn) this is pretty easy to get around, because with a well timed double switch or u-turn pivot, you can usually get trapinch or diglett in cleanly. It goes without saying that as soon as a trapping target gets a ko, trappers can come in to revenge kill it. This makes for a less diverse meta, because this discourages people from running stuff that usually ends up as trapper food, such as Croagunk, Ponyta-Galar, Cufant, which all might be viable without trappers around.

There are differences in this meta that make trappers more broken in gen 7, too. In gen 7, diglett was mostly used for revenge killing fast offensive mons, but now in gen 8, diglett is mostly used for trapping defensive mons (onix, pawn, mareanie) in order to allow mons previously walled by them to sweep. This is the same problem that caused Trapinch to be banned in gen 7 lc, when Trapinch was able to remove abra/gast checks with ease, causing the meta to be unbalanced. The fact that both diglett and trapinch are able to easily target and remove defensive mons is a problem, because it makes it difficult to check certain Pokemon (to keep things short I’ll just mention birds, Ponyta, and NP Spritzee.)
Because there are few good checks to Wingull and Vullaby, birds are really good in the current meta. The fact the more reliable ones, Onix and Pawniard can be easily trapped imo makes birds overpowered (see: Rufflet before it was banned.) Ponyta does have more checks: onix, mareanie, chinchou?, shellos, frillish, mudbray and corphish, but Ponyta can beat quite a few depending on the set (Sun Ponyta can reliably beat Shellos, Frillish, Mareanie, and Chinchou, the defensive utility set can cripple Corphish, Onix, and Mudbray.) Trappers make Ponyta even more difficult to check by trapping some of the more reliable Ponyta checks. Lastly, Np spritzee is pretty uncommon, but paired together with Trapinch it can be really scary, as it is basically a discount qd cutiefly. Basically trapinch comes along and traps ferroseed, ponyta, and/or mareanie, leaving the rest of the opponent’s team susceptible to getting swept by np spritzee. (here is an example of what it can do) https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8lc-1100978856
What I’m trying to say is that trappers are able to warp the meta to a point that certain mons that wouldn’t be broken without the presence of arena trap become borderline broken.

Diglett is a bit more debatable than Trapinch, because while they both trap similar mons, Diglett’s frailty makes it possible for the things that it traps to get around it. Pawniard runs Sucker Punch, which does a lot to Diglett and can kill with prior chip, Ponyta can set up with Flame Charge to outspeed Diglett before it comes in, and Onix can set up with Dragon Dance to outspeed Diglett or run Sturdy to not get ohko’d. Trapinch is also much bulkier than Diglett, which allows it to hard switch into the mons that it traps without fear when ev’d correctly instead of having to wait for a free switch. In the end though, they both do pretty much the same thing: trap defensive threats (onix, pawn, ferro, mareanie) which allows other mons that previously couldn’t break the defensive walls of a team to sweep.
 

ghost

formerly goldenghost
is a Site Content Manageris a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
LC Leader
I think we ought to have a discussion about manual sun and whether it's a healthy presence in the metagame. While neither me nor my opponent brought to our LCPL game, there is absolutely nothing as constraining in builder as sun, and with a little bit of help Bulbasaur can get to +2 and steamroll through its nominal checks, as only a slate of mostly unviable pokemon reliably take any hits at that point. We've also seen even more aggressive variants including Charmander and Cherubi which are even more matchup-fishy and uncompetitive. Diglett's ability to trap and set sun on stuff like Mare that gives Bulbasaur a free growth is also important.

I don't know if the answer is banning heat rock or bulbasaur, and I know many of you may not agree about sun, but I think it's the most pressing subject we have right now.
 

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