Metagame Metagame Discussion Thread

[freezai]

Banning Bulbasaur is the option that is most consistent with our tiering policy and is the most straightforward. However, voting to ban Bulbasaur would mean that you believe Charmander+Cherubi manual sun is not broken. This assertion is doubtful at best and Ninjadog's post above explains it in detail. It ultimately comes down to either banning Heat Rock or banning Chlorophyll.

Personally, I prefer banning heat rock; It solves the sun issue without going into overkill like banning Chlorophyll would. While banning chlorophyll does solve the issue of Sun, it also has a lot of collateral. Self setters are removed, 5 turn sun teams (not broken) are removed, Oddish has to use Run Away and can't check Sunny Day Ponyta, Cherubi gets inadvertently removed, etc. It's not that these examples are particularly influential on the meta, no one's going to use Cherubi, but we should avoid banning things that don't need to be banned. Sometimes a team might want an offensive self setter, or Oddish may want a 4th move Sunny Day for speed control, and we shouldn't be constricting that unnecessarily. Ban Heat Rock, keep it simple and keep as many options in the teambuilder as possible.

 

[ImperialGamer517]

I would agree with the previous post. We should either do a suspect test or the council can decide if they should ban Heat Rock by a vote. I believe the council should do a vote since a suspect test on an item is probably minor compared to suspect testing individual Pokemon, mechanics, and abilities. If by chance Heat Rock is removed, the metagame will not shift that much so that it can still be stable.

 

[Kipkluif]

I think banning Bulbasaur is the worst option and banning Heat Rock is the best, personally. Bulbasaur can be countered by reasonably bulky poison types (even evio-less Stunky takes a Life Orb boosted Weather Ball after SR damage and can Fire Blast back), the only problem is they get trapped, but that's a trapping problem, not a Bulbasaur problem. I think banning it will not result in sun being less broken as a playstyle, because counters to the Fire/Grass coverage will still be trapped and removed from the game.
I think lowering the amount of turns that sun can be abused makes using Growth a healthier trade-off. It would also mean that after you have trapped away a sun switchin, you will likely have to set sun again, which means you have to create another setup opportunity without losing too much momentum, and I think that makes it more fair as a playstyle because you have to play better to win.

 

[babyboyblues]

I'd prefer heat rock banned. Personally, I think out of all the options, we should prioritize the one that makes sun not broken while still keeping it as close to viable as possible and with as many building options as possible. Banning Chlorophyll, like everyone has stated, has the unnecessary collateral of hampering Oddish and removing Cherubi. Yes, most of the time this won't impact much, but there likely will be cases where it would have an impact in building. I think banning Heat Rock will come the closest to removing sun's brokenness and making significant counterplay possible while not just basically removing its viability. 5 turns is a lot more manageable than 8, especially when one of the turns has to be taken suiciding or switching in the case of Riolu, Diglett, etc. You don't have to sack your entire team, and switching around predicting grass move/fire move actually becomes rewarded.

Banning bulbasaur is not a good option imo because I think sun will still be broken regardless. Just smack on overheat pony and it'll still run wild. In my experience, the only time to go to bulbasaur over cherubi as the first sweeper is if the opponent is running ponyta or something else that resists both fire/grass. set up sun -> cherubi kills stuff -> setup sun again -> charmander kills stuff. Banning a single sweeper wouldn't solve the root issue; I think it would just change the way sun plays/builds while doing little to mitigate the oppressive nature of 8 sun turns where even if you predict moves correctly you'll still be at an extreme disadvantage. Teambuilding would still be extremely confined into having multiple sun checks, as bringing for example Mareanie alone would not be enough imo. The "what if Bellsprout comes in a DLC later" argument is a nonfactor.

I think that banning a mon, where there's only 2 options (ban mon or don't ban mon), should be looked at differently from this case where we have multiple options that all target sun. We should focus on not simply making sun not broken, but also trying to also keep it in the game in a manageable state if possible. Pokemon to me is more fun when there's more stuff you can do and more options to play with. That's why I'm voting Paxton Hall-Yoshida for class president of Sasquatch High.

 

[Merritt]

[Merritt] ឵឵឵Today at 6:47 PM
yes I could post but it'd be basically a one liner
and those are not good
[Coconut] ឵឵Today at 6:48 PM
would rather you do that

Personally I'm against a full Chlorophyll suspect and ban. While there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that it would fix the problem, it feels way too strong of a reaction - going too far in order to solve this. From the other two I have no personal preference but the way I see policy is that a Bulbasaur ban would 100% be more ideal policywise than a Heat Rock ban if it'd fix sun's dominance. If Cherubi is liable to pick up right where Bulbasaur left off (and that's theorymonning which is kinda awful at the best of times) then Heat Rock would probably be the better way to go.

If the question comes down to Cherubi+Bulbasaur+Vulpix all being banned in order to prevent the ban of Chlorophyll then I don't know where I'd come down. Probably still on the side of banning the mons, but at that point I could see the ability ban being justified.

 

[Roldski32]

After forming much thought from reading the discussion both in here and in discord, I found myself still undecided between Bulbasaur or Heat Rock as the option, though slightly going on the Heat Rock route personally.

Bulbasaur makes the most sense as it fits the "ban the mon first and foremost" policy thingy from what I understand, while Heat Rock ban retains the playstyle, but the abusers had only 4-3 turns to abuse it as opposed to having an extra 3 turns, and... most of my opinion about the item are already been stated by almost everyone's reasoning why Heat Rock is the option.

As for Chlorophyll, I'm not a huge fan of banning an ability anymore except for really broken ones like Moody, and maybe trapping from other tier (not that I hate trapping in lc, though), and I'm still not convinced why Chlorophyll should be banned, not just because of Cherubi's legality. How do i explain this correctlyand properly... Yes, it is the main problematic thing behind sun rn, (especially Bulbasaur), but i'm just not convinced enough to warrant a ban on the ability. Chlorophyll is not like Moody or something in terms of being inherently broken/uncompetitive on its own ( Yeah, I know they aren't even comparable and they do completely different things in the first place); Chlorophyll is not inherently broken on its own (it needs a certain thing like Sunny Day to function). But the main thing here is, I just don't see any other reason why Chlorophyll is broken and should be suspected compared to other ability that have the same function as it aside from the reasoning being Chlorophyll had a better abuser ( Bulbasaur and to some extent, Cherubi) and others with an ability of similar effect are just pretty bad or is the main culprit or problematic element behind sun. I would rather see ban the user of it than a Chlorophyll ban imo. I think I would chose a Chlorophyll ban if all of its users are actually broken (Bulbasaur, Cherubi and maybe Oddish are just not enough to ban the ability).

Well... that's all for my thoughts and perspective. I'm bad at explaining sometimes, so my opinion about why I don't prefer the Chlorophyll ban can be misunderstood or just being a plain bad comparison to other banned abilities or just a bad reasoning in general. Also, I don't like that Bellsprout is being mentioned, it doesn't even exist currently, and we don't know for sure if its fully confirmed to be coming back, and which DLC it is. We should only focus on what is currently available.

 

[Alan]

re: banning multiple mons vs one item because policy

Does this not highlight a potential flaw in policy (I realise this is a tangent so just a single reply or a discord chat might be better) where it encourage the "long way" to theoretical balance rather than a shorter way which on the surface appears healthier? Bulbasaur, Charmander and Oddish all have other roles where they are not broken (sd or bd charmander, defensive oddish, for examples), Cherubi is pretty useless outside of sun but could in theory exist as a self-setter, albeit an outclassed one. The lowest common demoninator in this case is heat rock because sun, and really weather if we're honest is just very powerful when used right and some are easier than others to abuse, in this instance sun.

back on topic: I think Heat Rock delete is the better choice because the alternative feels like throwing the baby out with the bathwater, and in general mirror the posts above that reflect this viewpoint. I mostly just wanted to bring up the above point.

 

[Berks]

Not to beat a dead horse, but one thing I think we’ve not yet examined fully is our policy on items / abilities / Pokémon, and I say that because we haven’t discussed SM Eevium Z yet. That ban is not exactly comparable to a potential Heat Rock ban - the black/white brokenness of Eevee with/without its Z Crystal was much clearer than this - but it does set a precedent which we could certainly follow with a Heat Rock ban.

e: just to clarify, I don't wanna try to argue any porygon/eevee related decisions, just pointing out that we have in the past banned an item that made a pokemon broken so we could do that here as well without breaking precedent if we determined that it would fix sun. :-)

 

[Gray]

While I do agree with the above posts about something needing to be done about the problematic sun teams, I would like to go back to another issue that I (and I'm sure others) have with the meta, and that is banning Arena Trap.
Fortunately, after checking previous posts from a while ago, there seem to be people who agree with me on this and I'm hoping that this post is influential.

When thinking about how to see if Arena Trap was broken, I felt like the best method is through seeing how many relevant Pokemon are threatened from the ability and lose in a 1v1 (after rocks and including rolls) to Trapinch or Diglett (because the best way to play with Arena Trap is by U-Turning/Volt Switching/Switching into Diglett/Pinch while they take little to no damage when coming in and trapping).

Barring Scarf:
Dewpider - 236 Atk Life Orb Diglett Rock Slide vs. 52 HP / 180 Def Eviolite Dewpider: 13-16 (61.9 - 76.1%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after SR
Diglett
Mareanie
Onix
Pawniard
Ponyta
Ponyta-Galar - 236 Atk Life Orb Diglett Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ponyta-Galar: 19-23 (90.4 - 109.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Chinchou
Croagunk
Dwebble - 236 Atk Life Orb Diglett Rock Slide vs. 72 HP / 0 Def Dwebble: 16-21 (72.7 - 95.4%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Munchlax - 196+ Atk Trapinch Superpower vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Munchlax: 32-38 (106.6 - 126.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Scraggy - 196+ Atk Trapinch Superpower vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Scraggy: 20-24 (95.2 - 114.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Wynaut - 196+ Atk Trapinch First Impression vs. 156 HP / 52 Def Wynaut: 22-28 (78.5 - 100%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Charmander
Salandit
Cufant
Darumaka
Meowth - 236 Atk Life Orb Diglett Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Meowth: 21-27 (105 - 135%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Stunky
Farfetch'd-G - 196+ Atk Trapinch Earthquake vs. -1 20 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Farfetch'd-Galar: (81.8 - 100%) - 43.8% chance to OHKO after SR (after CC)
(20/42 Pokemon on VR)

With Arena Trap, it doesn't matter if you have three or four counters on your team for Trapinch/Diglett. Those 2 or 3 Pokemon that lose to them are gonna get smashed as long as they get forced in a matchup against them. If you're up against a good player, it shouldn't take a full game for them to predict when you're gonna switch in one of the Pokemon I listed above (as they can even scout with U-Turn/Volt Switch).

Teambuilding for good players around Trapinch or Diglett isn't so hard when you can let the rest of your team full of Volt/Turns get bodied by a list of Pokemon like the Ponytas/Croagunk/Pawniard/etc just to corner them on the switch.

Trapinch, after being banned from LC last gen, got a buff with First Impression, which may have a subpar offensive type but is +2 priority with 90 BP on a slowass mon and rly damn good for revenge killing (way better than feint -.-).

Finally, I would like to add that I wouldn't mind Trapinch itself being banned too much, because I feel like there's just a lot more ways to deal with Diglett as it's a lot frailer, although I feel like trapping in itself is problematic for LC.

 

[ImperialGamer517]

While I do agree with the above posts about something needing to be done about the problematic sun teams, I would like to go back to another issue that I (and I'm sure others) have with the meta, and that is banning Arena Trap.
Fortunately, after checking previous posts from a while ago, there seem to be people who agree with me on this and I'm hoping that this post is influential.

When thinking about how to see if Arena Trap was broken, I felt like the best method is through seeing how many relevant Pokemon are threatened from the ability and lose in a 1v1 to Trapinch or Diglett (because the best way to play with Arena Trap is by U-Turning/Volt Switching/Switching into Diglett/Pinch while they take little to no damage when coming in and trapping).

Dewpider - 236 Atk Life Orb Diglett Rock Slide vs. 52 HP / 180 Def Eviolite Dewpider: 13-16 (61.9 - 76.1%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after SR
Diglett
Mareanie
Onix
Pawniard
Ponyta
Ponyta-Galar - 236 Atk Life Orb Diglett Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ponyta-Galar: 19-23 (90.4 - 109.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Chinchou
Croagunk
Dwebble - 236 Atk Life Orb Diglett Rock Slide vs. 72 HP / 0 Def Dwebble: 16-21 (72.7 - 95.4%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Munchlax - 196+ Atk Trapinch Superpower vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Munchlax: 32-38 (106.6 - 126.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Scraggy - 196+ Atk Trapinch Superpower vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Scraggy: 20-24 (95.2 - 114.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Wynaut - 196+ Atk Trapinch First Impression vs. 156 HP / 52 Def Wynaut: 22-28 (78.5 - 100%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Charmander
Salandit
Cufant
Darumaka
Meowth - 236 Atk Life Orb Diglett Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Meowth: 21-27 (105 - 135%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Stunky
Farfetch'd-G - 196+ Atk Trapinch Earthquake vs. -1 20 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Farfetch'd-Galar: (81.8 - 100%) - 43.8% chance to OHKO after SR (after CC)
(20/42 Pokemon on VR)

With Arena Trap, it doesn't matter if you have three or four counters on your team for Trapinch/Diglett. Those 2 or 3 Pokemon that lose to them are gonna get smashed as long as they get forced in a matchup against them. If you're up against a good player, it shouldn't take a full game for them to predict when you're gonna switch in one of the Pokemon I listed above (as they can even scout with U-Turn/Volt Switch).

Teambuilding for good players around Trapinch or Diglett isn't so hard when you can let the rest of your team full of Volt/Turns get bodied by a list of Pokemon like the Ponytas/Croagunk/Pawniard/etc just to corner them on the switch.

Trapinch, after being banned from LC last gen, got a buff with First Impression, which may have a subpar offensive type but is +2 priority with 90 BP on a slowass mon and rly damn good for revenge killing (way better than thief -.-).

Finally, I would like to add that I wouldn't mind Trapinch itself being banned too much, because I feel like there's just a lot more ways to deal with Diglett as it's a lot frailer, although I feel like trapping in itself is problematic for LC.

I don’t think banning Arena Trap is a good idea. First of all, this current LC metagame is filled entirely with Ground immune mons like Vullaby, Koffing, and Wingull. Furthermore, there are plenty of Pokémon that can beat Trapinch and Diglett like Mareanie, Ferroseed, Oddish, Mudbray, and many other names I’m forgetting here. The point is that the tier’s Arena trappers are vulnerable to many top-tier threats. Diglett is even so frail that it can easily be revenge killed by Corphish, while Trapinch sets are typically slow they get outsped. That’s why don’t ban Arena Trap, since it is easy to handle in LC, not like in other metagames like OU or Nat Dex. The difference of LC compared to other tiers is that LC has lots of checks to Ground-types, while the rest of the tiers are limited. They didn’t even ban Arena Trap last gen, so what is the difference for this gen, when we have other Pokémon returning in the DLCs that can check these trappers as well as an almost similar Gen 8 LC to its Gen 7 counterpart?

 

[Gray]

I don’t think banning Arena Trap is a good idea. First of all, this current LC metagame is filled entirely with Ground immune mons like Vullaby, Koffing, and Wingull. Furthermore, there are plenty of Pokémon that can beat Trapinch and Diglett like Mareanie, Ferroseed, Oddish, Mudbray, and many other names I’m forgetting here. The point is that the tier’s Arena trappers are vulnerable to many top-tier threats. Diglett is even so frail that it can easily be revenge killed by Corphish, while Trapinch sets are typically slow they get outsped. That’s why don’t ban Arena Trap, since it is easy to handle in LC, not like in other metagames like OU or Nat Dex. The difference of LC compared to other tiers is that LC has lots of checks to Ground-types, while the rest of the tiers are limited.

What I got as your main argument is that there are hella checks to Diglett and Pinch in LC, so we shouldn't ban Arena Trap.
I just listed all the Pokemon in Viability Rankings that could lose in a 1v1 to them after rocks (20/42 of them).
You can have like 4 checks on your team to Trapinch or Diglett, but when you don't get the matchup you want from a volt/turn/read, you're gonna lose one of those 2 mons that lose to them.

 

[ImperialGamer517]

What I got as your main argument is that there are hella checks to Diglett and Pinch in LC, so we shouldn't ban Arena Trap.
I just listed all the Pokemon in Viability Rankings that could lose in a 1v1 to them after rocks (20/42 of them).
You can have like 4 checks on your team to Trapinch or Diglett, but when you don't get the matchup you want from a volt/turn/read, you're gonna lose one of those 2 mons that lose to them.

Well that’s less than half, so technically a lot of the tier can have a chance of winning against both trapper “demons”. Also since Vullaby is everywhere right now (and probably forever), I’m not seeing Arena Trap getting banned soon.

 

[Coconut]

Our focus at the current moment is on Manual Sun. Arena Trap, or Diglett and Trapinch will be sticking around for the immediate future. The council decided that we could potentially touch upon that at a later date, but as pertaining to my former post, we're honing in our Sun.

If anybody has anything else to contribute to the best approach to manual sun, please feel free to say so, but I believe we will be reaching a decision soon, and when we do, we'll let you know.

 

[Luthier]

Hello, LC. Seeing that there is not only a lot of discrepancy between the LC council, but also the general community on the matter of how to deal with sun, I just wanted to weigh in a couple of my own thoughts. It's not very hard to understand why sun is so absurdly good right now: power, coverage, length of abuse, abusers, speed control, etc. The issue, however, arises when no matter what we try to convince the other side to believe, there seems to be a partial infraction of hypocrisy within our arguments. I just wanted to address a couple of these mentions in this thread. By no means am I trying to throw shade at individuals, but I want it to be mentioned prior to moving on and solidifying our beliefs.

Self setters are removed, 5 turn sun teams (not broken) are removed, Oddish has to use Run Away and can't check Sunny Day Ponyta, Cherubi gets inadvertently removed, etc. It's not that these examples are particularly influential on the meta, no one's going to use Cherubi, but we should avoid banning things that don't need to be banned. Sometimes a team might want an offensive self setter, or Oddish may want a 4th move Sunny Day for speed control, and we shouldn't be constricting that unnecessarily. Ban Heat Rock, keep it simple and keep as many options in the teambuilder as possible.

While we did address the problem of banning chlorophyll causes the inadvertent removal of Cherubi from the tier, it was clearly stated that Cherubi has no role outside of sun, meaning that it wouldn't really make much of a difference. However, further on in the discussion, you address an absurdly specific instance in which an Oddish would have to outspeed a Ponyta using Chlorophyll when there is sunny day up - an instance that seems way too zoomed into focus than it should be. And not only that, you talk about Oddish running 4th move Sunny Day for speed control which is simply not a viable set. Although I do understand where you are coming from, the idea of tossing super improbable and specific cases seems a bit too much for saying that the collateral of losing "4th move Sunny Day Oddish" and "not being able to outspeed a Ponyta in sun when there are no webs up" is something that outweighs losing the theory oriented non-sun abusing Cherubi.

I believe the council should do a vote since a suspect test on an item is probably minor compared to suspect testing individual Pokemon, mechanics, and abilities.

There already has been a lot of discussion revolving around the sun test in the council. There are three things that we have looked into: Heat Rock, Bulbasaur, and Chlorophyll. You can read up more on it in the council minutes to see what every person believes.

I think banning Heat Rock will come the closest to removing sun's brokenness and making significant counterplay possible while not just basically removing its viability. 5 turns is a lot more manageable than 8, especially when one of the turns has to be taken suiciding or switching in the case of Riolu, Diglett, etc.

I agree with the most of this statement, but I base my case off of a past proven case rather than something oriented around theorymoning, which is not something you want to create your basis off of when developing a belief. In the "pre-DLC" meta, where the major sun abuser was Cherubi, sun had the flexibility to be geared around chipping and sweeping rather than the current set up and win type sun. Although there are many examples of the sweep and win idea with cherubi, sun can still be potent through the use of non-set up life orb Cherubi.
180+ SpA Life Orb Cherubi Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Vullaby in Sun: 17-21 (73.9 - 91.3%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Possible damage amounts: (17, 17, 17, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 21)
Cherubi basically still has the power to wreck through the meta through rapid destruction + resetting sun.

This being said, I think there is also merit in addressing that the ban of heat rock does have the ability to shut down sun by forcing the loss of the famous staple sun setter:
Diglett @ Heat Rock
Ability: Arena Trap
Level: 5
EVs: 116 HP / 156 Atk / 236 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Sunny Day
- Memento
- Earthquake
- Final Gambit

Without being able to force trap, set up sun, memento, set up with a sweeper, and still have 4 turns of abuse left ( it would only have 1 turn of abuse with the ban of heat rock ), the best sun setter in the tier becomes practically unviable and so do many of the other setters of sun which are geared around setting up sun and then tossing themselves out to get in a sun sweeper.

I believe that this element of the Heat Rock ban is a specific reason why we could look into the ban of the item. However, this being said, I believe that the best way to deal with the current sun problem is to ban Chlorophyll.

In terms of looking at this argument centered around the collateral argument, I think the post by Ninjadog earlier in the thread sums it up almost perfectly. Although I still do disagree with the idea of using a specified case of Oddish checking (not countering) Ponyta through a 75% sleep powder (which it can still get a first turn wake through), most of the other points that Ninja makes in the later half of his argument provide a very good basis for us to examine the pros and cons of each ban. If we were to ban Chlorophyll, we end up getting rid of Cherubi from the tier by default, but we don't ever see a Cherubi outside of sun anyways, so it is not a meta-impacting decision. Whereas if we were to ban heat rock, we get rid of fire spam, which is an incredibly powerful and good archetype in the meta currently (a very meta-impacting decision). In addition, whereas Vulpix may be allowed back in the meta with a Chlorophyll ban (an increase in diversity in an already restricted meta would be great), sun could be allowed to exist ( a branch of theorymoning, which is something we absolutely do not want to do when we are considering reasons for what to suspect).

In addition to all of this, I want to address why I believe that banning bulbasaur is absolutely not the decision we should go through with. I am on board for the Chlorophyll ban, and I can understand if the community is strongly rooted for the ban of Heat Rock, but I don't think I can agree at all with the idea of a Bulbasaur ban. I built my basis over a very similar archetype which was used in the "pre-DLC" meta, when sun counters through munchlax and ferroseed (for growth oddish) were very readily present through the meta. However, even when those mons were both near the top in usage and viability, a non-Bulbasaur oriented sun was incredibly viable - to the point where Vulpix had to be banned. Now, I understand that some people say that manual sun (which is currently run) and Vulpix sun (which used to be run in "pre-DLC" meta) are different archetypes. And though I am very inclined to agree with them, the proponents of the Bulbasaur ban fail to recognize that even though they are different archetypes, there are a large amount of similarities that exist between the two. If we ban Bulbasaur, the tier will shift to abuse Cherubi and Oddish instead, which doesn't really solve the issue. I think that in terms of "theorymoning" and being able to stray as far away from it as possible, it is much better to create a basis off of similar tried and true models rather than individuals who believe a certain thing based off of an informed guess that may or may not be true at all.

Another point that I wanted to bring up is back to the "collateral model" of thinking about which to ban. If we are to ban Bulbasaur, then we are getting rid of the meta that some people deem to be viable. Although I am inclined to not say that it is incredibly potent at what it does, certain individuals see that there is a specific niche for Bulbasaur outside of sun, which can be seen in the current LCPL games. Whereas banning something like a non-sun Cherubi or a 4th move Sunny Day Oddish has next to no impact, there is an apparently viability shown by usage of it in LCPL.

For those reasons listed above, I think that the best way to deal with the current issue of sun is to go about banning Chlorophyll and if the community does not agree with the points made, I think it could be viable to suspect heat rock. However, I don't think banning Bulbasaur solves the issue.

 

[Merritt]

While this has been discussed quite a bit in the discord, the HAs for the Galar starters are now released.

Grookey's the big one of course, not only for bringing a terrain setter to LC at long last but also because it benefits a lot from its shiny new HA. Wood Hammer hits like a truck, and Grookey's got good coverage to go alongside it. Also Grassy Terrain messes a little bit with Diglett trapping since Dig doesn't have High Horsepower, forcing it to sub away the Grassy Terrain turns.

Scorbunny is alright? I guess? Being able to suddenly go Poison or Fighting is useful and U-turn hits significantly harder now, but the lack of ZHB and Pyro Ball are annoying. Best way to use Scorbunny is probably as a pseudo Fighting-type with very strong Fire and Poison coverage moves. Weakness to rocks means that once we get foo it'll be kinda hard to justify though.

Sobble is still bad and with Staryu confirmed it's nothing but bad news for Sobble.

 

[Coconut]

I just wanted to quickly start by saying I really appreciate how many people took time out of their day to write up a post. We really had plenty to discuss throughout the council and it was great to see a myriad of opinions spoken so eloquently throughout the community in this thread. We have decided to move forward with a suspect on Chlorophyll. You can read more about that suspect here.

Thank you for participating everyone, until next time.

 

[ghost]

Here is a list of notable LC Pokemon that are allegedly back in this DLC, with my emphasis included:

Mienfoo
Abra
Porygon
Staryu
Foongus
Magnemite (no hidden power)
Carvanha
Tentacool
Lickitung
Cubone
Larvesta
Fomantis
Rockruff
Tangela!

Stands to reason that this will turn the metagame on its head. Swiss will be nutty. In conclusion,

 

[Berks]

i’m v happy

would love to hear how we’re gonna approach things like potential unbans, especially Gastly bc all of Staryu Abra Carvanha and Porygon can take it on to an extent plus we get scarf Mag back!

In conclusion, I’m hype af

e: we also get boots larv which could be real fun. that will be all.

 

[MK007]

If we're getting Abra and Staryu back we should probably discuss potentially freeing Gastly. Its speed tier won't be as oppressive anymore, but we still have the issue of not being able to pursuit trap it. I think it will still be broken, but we should at least have the discussion. Abra coming back also means Beat Up Diglett will return, and while Gastly isn't exactly trappable, Beat Up Dig can function as a revenger and another mon that can yank the momentum back after Gastly gets a kill, while before our options were very limited.

On a more important note when discussing mons who should potentially be freed, Vulpix definitely deserves consideration now that chlorophyll is banned. Flame Charge + Scarf Charmander + Flame Charge Pony teams might be strong but I don't think they'll be broken, especially when Diglett exists and Scarf Dig is going to be a viable niche set like it always is. I think it will be one of the stronger type spam archetypes but like any type spam team, it's generally predictable (and in Charmander's case more predictable than most).

 

[MK007]

Ok Abra is actually broken this gen with pursuit not being a thing. This is going to be great.

 

[Stoward]

So now that DLC has dropped and we've got some (old) new toys to play with. I thought I'd drop my thoughts/speculation.

I've been having a fair bit of fun with this team that I whipped up in a few mins. It's far from perfect but it's enough for screwing around on the ladder.
https://pokepast.es/3d6dd3f8c606707f


- No surprise that this thing is going to hit like a truck as 20 SpA with a Timid Nature is insanely good. Pursuit being deleted from the game as well as the lack of Ghost-types running around certainly helps this thing be very threatening. The loss of Hidden Power is quite the nerf though as it has a much harder time hitting Steel-types. Life Orb sets could potentially run Fire Punch or Focus Punch if it wants to have a chance of hitting Ferroseed and hit Pawniard better as they have a 12% chance to 2HKO it. It's worth noting though that the rolls are exactly the same if you run Timid or a Hasty Nature for 19 Def Ferroseed, but if you run 36 Attack EVs and a Hasty Nature, then the rolls are better against 18 Def Ferroseed. I can also imagine Life Orb Sets will want to run protect these days to be able to combat Trapinch as First Impression destroys this thing, meaning it may struggle to find room to run Substitute. Regardless, this thing will be everywhere and will be something you'll absolutely have to prep for.


Can't say I really played SM, but the SM Analysis kinda sums it up pretty well. Trick Room certainly isn't very strong in LC. It hasn't even really been used as a matchup fish and I don't see that changing. Gonna pull a shake here and call this unviable.


Not gonna lie, I thought this thing was kinda nice with that 19 Speed tier, then I saw that it lost return so it's best Normal-type move is Facade.


Carvanha is one of the few mons that got Flip Turn. I don't see it using it much though as it's more of a late-game cleaner. A new Offensive water-type to play around with will be fun.



Clauncher also got the move Flip Turn, so I guess it doesn't need to run U-turn anymore. But at the same time, that still doesn't stop it from being outclassed by every other viable water.


Idk if PS is glitched but Cosmog seems to have the same movepool as Kommo-o in PS. I mean the exact same. Clangerous Soul and everything. Still has some of the worst stats ever though so still probably unuseable


Cubone didn't really get anything substantial. With so many things running Knock Off, and it's lack of bulk due to not being able to run Eviolite or Berry Juice, and it's rather average speed tier, I don't see this doing much.


So this thing can use Teleport now over idk Giga Drain or Psychic? Still one of the weaker Grass-types in the tier


Unfortunately this thing will always be a shell of its former self. I guess it can do some fun things with Eject Pack and Overheat cos then you might have an easier time getting a full power Acrobatics, but it'd face competition with Ponyta for doing that as Ponyta has a better Speed tier and STAB on Overheat. Probably outclassed by other birds too.


Fomantis was known as a poor man's Snivy last gen, so with Snivy out of the picture, you'd think this mon would get a chance to shine. However, with Hidden Power being deleted and a lack of any sort of other coverage and the amount of Foongus we're gonna see. I don't think this mon will be seeing any usage. If you don't use contrary though, it does have access to Swords Dance and gets Grassy Glide which has priority under Grassy Terrain, which could be cool if it's paired with Grookey? At the same time though. Its coverage would only be Grass + Poison, which isn't the best offensively.


Regenerator is just as powerful as ever and this mon basically does the same thing it did before. Losing Hidden Power is quite a nerf though as it invites Steel-types in for free - especially Ferroseed as now it literally cannot touch it. All the games I played on the ladder where my opponent had a Foongus, there were multiple tedious turns of Foongus v Foongus where we were both doing minimal damage to each other. Just the fact that this thing has impressive Bulk, Regenerator, access to Spore, and it isn't weak to Diglett and Trapinch means that this thing will be a solid pick. Abra being everywhere will be somewhat annoying but I can still see this being quite splashable.


There's still no reason to run this over Spritzee.


Yeah, Happiny hasn't done anything in LC in any generation ever. It got nothing in its movepool to change that in gen 8 either.


Horsea got flip turn, it's still outclassed by a lot of other offensive waters like Carvanha, Corphish, Krabby, and Staryu.


This thing being able to use Heavy Duty Boots is super nice. Everything does have Knock Off though and it's still weak to common typings, or even the things it resists will most likely have some sort of coverage to hit it naturally. I don't imagine this Pokemon will see much use.


Lickitung does give bulkier archetypes something else to work with, and having an Abra check is always nice. I can see this being on more passive teams with mons like Mareanie, Foonguss, Mudbray, Ferroseed and Spritzee.


Don't know if this Pokemon got anything new. Like most normal-types, it got nerfed because it lost Return. It's outclassed by most other Normal-type in LC though. It's stats and movepool are pretty bad.


Oh man, poor Magnemite. I think the only Pokemon that got more affected by the removal of Hidden Power more than Magnemite was Unown. Its evolutions at least got Body Press to hit Steel-types, but this thing got Magnet Pull and it can't even hit Ferroseed anymore. It can do its SturdyJuice stuff but still quite the nerf. Having more Electric-type Pokemon to choose from is nice though.


Oh man, this mon is back and it's better than ever. The lack of viable Ghosts means that this thing can click reckless High Jump Kick without thinking too much. 17 Speed means that it's got a great Speed tier for being a Choice Scarf user, especially when the only Pokemon running Scarf at that speed is Chinchou. Regenerator is still just as broken as ever so it'll still get to do what it's always done where it can U-Turn away and get free HP from it. It got access to Close Combat now, which could be nice on bulkier sets if you're absolutely petrified of missing HJK (Which I'm sure there are a few of you out there as we've all lost games before due to missing HJK's), but then again, the Defense and SpD drops you'd get means you're more susceptible to priority attacks. There's no doubt that this Pokemon will find itself on a lot of teams.


Maybe if we hadn't gone and banned Chlorophyll, this Pokemon might have a niche? But even still it'd be outclassed by Cherubi. There's a plethora of Grass-types that are much more splashable than this Pokemon.


This thing can still do its fast Belly Drum stuff it did before. It lost return so it kills itself faster if it opts to run Normal-type coverage, and it also didn't really gain anything substantial. Could still be fun though.


Only faced this thing a couple of times but god is this thing annoying. Its bulk is fantastic and unlike other normal-types, it's not been nerfed by Return being deleted. It doesn't have its broken Z-conversion set anymore so it's probably a healthy addition to LC.


Sadly this thing is just super slow and has really bad bulk. With plenty of other Water-types to choose from with much better stats, movepools, and abilities to fit your team's specific needs, there's really no reason to run this Pokemon.


This Pokemon's stats and movepool are still lackluster. You're better off using Onix if you want a good offensive Rock-Type.


Losing Pursuit was super rough for Sandile as it already faced competition as an offensive Dark-type from Pawniard and Vullaby and as an offensive Ground-type from Diglett last gen. The fact that so many things have Knock Off and this Pokemon isn't one of them is also pretty rough. It still does have good coverage and a nice offensive typing so it'll certainly be strong with the right kind of support, but I don't see this Pokemon being super common.


Sandshrew didn't gain anything new this gen and with Drilbur still in the Galar Dex, this Pokemon won't have much time to shine.


Sandygast got the fanstastic move, Scorching Sand which is literally like Scald but a Ground-type move. With the absense of Pursuit and lack of Ghost-type Competition, this Pokemon could be rather threatening. Its rather average speed is quite a setback though and the fact that most Pokemon will naturally run coverage options that hit this super hard will be a massive setback.


Skrelp got Flip Turn. Since it doesn’t have hidden power anymore, perhaps it might actually run this to gain momentum. Having an offensive Poison-type will be nice, however its speed really holds it back. Definitely faces competition with Mareanie and Tentacool and getting trapped by Diglett sucks.


Maybe if Chinchou weren't around, this thing might see some usage, however this Pokemon hasn't gained anything substantial so once again, there's no real reason to use this Pokemon over Chinchou


For some reason we don't have a mini sprite for the galarian version, but that's the one I'm talking about here. Not exactly new, but we can finally use it in LC now. This Pokemon doesn't really set itself apart from its regular forme other than its lack of water-typing means that it's not weak to Ferroseed I guess? It could be nice on defensive teams as Regenerator is always powerful and it has great physical defense and recovery in Slack Off.


This thing is just as powerful as before. Rapid Spin giving this a speed boost means that it'll be even harder to revenge kill, but even if it doesn't run that - all out attacking sets will still be powerful af. I personally haven't tried Defensive so perhaps that could also be solid, but its stats and movepool are just as great as they've ever been. It also got access to Flip Turn, but being a Special Attacker, there's no real point using this move.


This thing still faces competition from Mareanie and Skreip. Rapid Spin giving it a Speed boost means it can potentially avoid being trapped by Diglett, so that will be nice.


This thing still sets hazards and that's literally all it does. Ok as a dedicated lead on specific kinds of Hyper Offense teams, but that's about it. With the amount of hazard removal options available and better options with Dwebble or Ferroseed depending on what kind of playstyle you're after, there's not much of a reason to use this mon.


Yeah this thing isn't doing anything.


Illusion + decent stats will always mean this thing has somewhat of a niche. It has access to Sludge Bomb now meaning that it can actually hit Sptrizee, which will help it out a fair bit.


Anyway, despite some of these Pokemon being significantly better than others. I'd encourage you all to go out and build around with these new toys - even some of the niche ones and post teams/replays so we can all have some fun trying out some new things. Also would love to hear people's thoughts on either certain mons or the metagame as a whole

 

[Albi]

Hey, Just wanted to share some thoughts/calcs on the best (imo) new late-game cleaners in the meta, after testing some things on the ladder in the last three days


Of course we start off with Abra. This thing is strong, like borderline impossible to stop. If your Ferroseed/Pawniard/Magnemite gets chipped, knocked off or trapped, it's probably gonna be hard to avoid a sweep (and with everything having knock off, it's not really hard to pull this off).
I personally prefer Sash cause it gives you a chance to revenge kill things like NP Vullaby +2 Spe and other setup stuff, doesn't care about sucker punch or other priority, but Life Orb is very good too.
Its movepool is incredible, with Psychic, Dazzling Gleam, Shadow Ball, Energy Ball, Fire Punch, Counter (for Sash set), you really can't be safe when switching into it, especially late game where your best checks are probably worn down. The calcs below show that Pawniard is the best switch, but it can easily get trapped and it's still not exactly safe against Dazzling Gleam.
I guess the only thing stopping this from being way way too much for the meta is 4mss (you may also want protect against first impression Trapinch, so choosing just 4 moves is really a challenge)

Calcs

I only show the best checks, things that don't resist it or don't have high SpDef just get destroyed for the most part
0- Atk Life Orb Abra Fire Punch vs. 84 HP / 188+ Def Eviolite Ferroseed: 10-16 (45.4 - 72.7%) -- 12.1% chance to 2HKO
240 SpA Life Orb Abra Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Magnemite: 10-13 (52.6 - 68.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (same rolls with Fire Punch)
236 SpA Abra Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 116 SpD Eviolite Pawniard: 7-9 (33.3 - 42.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
240 SpA Life Orb Abra Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 116 SpD Eviolite Pawniard: 9-12 (42.8 - 57.1%) -- 12.1% chance to 2HKO

I'm also gonna include calcs against eviolite-less Spritzee (very common scenario, with Spritzee switching into fighting types)
236 SpA Abra Psychic vs. 212 HP / 236+ SpD Spritzee: 12-15 (44.4 - 55.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
240 SpA Life Orb Abra Psychic vs. 212 HP / 236+ SpD Spritzee: 16-19 (59.2 - 70.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

I guess you can tank hits with a bulky Porygon and revenge kill in case of emergency
236 SpA Abra Psychic vs. 156 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Porygon: 9-12 (36 - 48%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
240 SpA Life Orb Abra Psychic vs. 156 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Porygon: 12-16 (48 - 64%) -- 96.5% chance to 2HKO

I didn't think Grookey was that good before Grassy Glide was released, I felt like the lack of priority was holding it back against things like scarfers, speed ties or other priorities, but now it's definitely one of the best heavy hitters. Grassy Glide and Wood Hammer, with STAB, Terrain Boost and Life Orb (my favorite item on Grookey) make it incredibly hard to deal with, not to mention switch into it. Any free turn is either a kill or a bunch of damage, especially with Drain Punch hitting Ferro and Pawniard. It does have some reliable switch ins, most notably bulky Poison types such as Oddish, Foongus, Koffing, but it can still cripple them with knock off to allow its teammates to better handle them later on.
Unfortunately the damage calculator doesn't show Grassy Glide rolls yet, but just know that under terrain it's a 91 bp stab priority move, that should be enough to convince you that this mon is awesome right now, and very fun to play with.
It shares the same First Impression weakness as Abra, so you might want Protect instead of Knock Off, but where's the fun in having a move that doesn't do damage with this beast?

Calcs

DON'T SWITCH INTO THIS THING IF NOT WITH A BULKY POISON, IT'LL DO A LOT OF DAMAGE
236 Atk Life Orb Grookey Wood Hammer vs. 0 HP / 196 Def Eviolite Mienfoo in Grassy Terrain: 17-21 (80.9 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
236 Atk Life Orb Grookey Wood Hammer vs. 0 HP / 156 Def Ponyta in Grassy Terrain: 12-16 (57.1 - 76.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
236 Atk Life Orb Grookey Wood Hammer vs. 0 HP / 76 Def Vullaby in Grassy Terrain: 12-14 (52.1 - 60.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
236 Atk Life Orb Grookey Wood Hammer vs. 212 HP / 196+ Def Eviolite Spritzee in Grassy Terrain: 16-19 (59.2 - 70.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
236 Atk Life Orb Grookey Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Pawniard: 26-31 (123.8 - 147.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
236 Atk Life Orb Grookey Drain Punch vs. 84 HP / 188+ Def Eviolite Ferroseed: 10-13 (45.4 - 59%) -- 12.1% chance to 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
236 Atk Life Orb Grookey Wood Hammer vs. 0 HP / 116 Def Eviolite Croagunk in Grassy Terrain: 10-12 (47.6 - 57.1%) -- 75% chance to 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
236 Atk Life Orb Grookey Wood Hammer vs. 157 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Porygon in Grassy Terrain: 17-21 (68 - 84%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery

See? This is much better :)
236 Atk Life Orb Grookey Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 124 HP / 160+ Def Eviolite Foongus: 6-9 (24 - 36%)
The others switch ins I mentioned have similar calcs

I don't necessarily consider porygon a late game cleaner, since it can easily pivot during the game thanks to its very good bulk (and access to recover and teleport on more defensive sets), but it's still a very threatening offensive presence so it deserves its place here.
It doesn't have a great speed tier (max 14) but it makes up for it with amazing Special Attack and possibly a +1 boost thanks to its ability Download, reaching an incredible 28 SpAtk (Modest nature) that can deal massive damage to the entire meta, thanks to its very versatile movepool that includes Tri Attack, Ice Beam, Thunderbolt, Psychic and Shadow Ball.
It has a tough time dealing damage to steel types like Ferroseed, Pawniard and Magnemite (also SpDef Spritzee) but its ability to tank a lot of hits allows it to have multiple opportunities during a game to chip all of its resists and possibly sweep if it has enough HP (and if Mienfoo is already out of the game).
However, if the opponent's pokemon has more SpDef than Def, Download will increase your physical attack, so keep that in mind while reading the calcs.
Good mons to activate download on are Foongus (when you already have a mon asleep, you don't want Pory to get spored), Pawniard, Ferroseed, but of course they're not the only ones

Calcs

This boi is thicc
236 Atk Mienfoo High Jump Kick vs. 157 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Porygon: 24-30 (96 - 120%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO (it even has a chance to live)
196+ Atk Iron Fist Timburr Drain Punch vs. 157 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Porygon: 18-24 (72 - 96%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

and hits pretty hard
+1 236+ SpA Porygon Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 116 SpD Eviolite Pawniard: 11-13 (52.3 - 61.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (not really a good resist after all)
+1 236+ SpA Porygon Tri Attack vs. 212 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Spritzee: 10-13 (37 - 48.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 236+ SpA Porygon Ice Beam vs. 84 HP / 148 SpD Eviolite Ferroseed: 8-10 (36.3 - 45.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 236+ SpA Porygon Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Magnemite: 13-16 (68.4 - 84.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Basically everything else gets OHKO'd if hit with the right move

Ok, now that we're done with the obvious and mainstream stuff, I can finally talk about this scary cool fish, which is basically a big reason why I wanted to make this post in the first place. It's definitely less optimal than the previously discussed mons, but if you manage to chip the opponent's team, and knock off some eviolites, just enjoy seeing this get to crazy amounts of speed and 2HKO (if not OHKO) everything with Water and Dark coverage (and Psychic Fangs). I guess it's the kind of mon that works best for some fun on the ladder, not really if you want to win tournaments, but that's just my two cents, looking forward to seeing tournament games with it.
It also learns Flip Turn which is cool for momentum but on a Life Orb set which aims at sweeping the opposing team you're better off with raw damage imo, so Psychic Fangs is the better choice, or Aqua Jet for priority, aside from the obvious Liquidation/Waterfall, Crunch, and Protect to activate your Speed Boost and oustpeed everything but very fast scarfers (Chinchou).
All this seems pretty cool, right? Yeah, but what's the drawback? It's basically weak to any priority in the meta: Grassy Glide, Mach Punch manage to OHKO it easily, Quick Attack and Feint can hurt it enough to make it less likely to sweep due to Life Orb recoil. It only resists Sucker Punch which still does a good amount, as shown in the calcs, and has protect against First Impression and Fake Out. I still think it's very fun to play with, but if you want something more consistent, pick one of the above.
I guess other options that can be considered are Swords Dance and Special Life Orb with Dark Pulse and Hydro Pump, but I'm not going to comment on those cause I haven't tried them yet.

Calcs

yeah, it needs a lot of chip damage, but it's still fun
196+ Atk Life Orb Carvanha Liquidation vs. 212 HP / 196+ Def Spritzee: 16-19 (59.2 - 70.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (no Eviolite)
196+ Atk Life Orb Carvanha Crunch vs. 84 HP / 188+ Def Ferroseed: 12-16 (54.5 - 72.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (no Eviolite)
196+ Atk Life Orb Carvanha Psychic Fangs vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Mienfoo: 18-23 (85.7 - 109.5%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
196+ Atk Life Orb Carvanha Liquidation vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Porygon: 12-16 (52.1 - 69.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
196+ Atk Life Orb Carvanha Psychic Fangs vs. 124 HP / 160+ Def Eviolite Foongus: 16-21 (64 - 84%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (62% OHKO with no Eviolite)

156 Atk Pawniard Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Carvanha: 7-9 (36.8 - 47.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

So, here's all I had to say. I'm really enjoying trying out the new things that just came out and messing around building with those. Btw, I didn't play SM LC, so maybe for those who did, everything I said was pretty much already common knowledge, I just thought this could be cool for someone approaching LC for the first time now that there's more variety.
If there's something that you want to add (I might have missed something for sure), or that you don't agree with me on, I'm really looking forward to hearing what other people think of this meta and the new mons.
Also, I'm gonna link the Carvanha-Abra team that I've been using on the ladder these days (the alt is in the 1300s, so I played both low and high ladder with fairly good success, feel free to mess around with it): https://pokepast.es/2a7ccb297d3297eb

 

[DC]

Vullaby Spread Creation Guide v 2.0

​

This is a revamp of LilyAC 's Vullaby Spread Creation Guide in SM. With the metagame taking a complete overhaul and LC Open and Swiss coming up/ in progress, I thought that it would be useful for this guide to get re-created to help the players with teambuilding. Vullaby is LC's most versatile mon and these are just some of the benchmarks that it might want to reach to help your builds be more successful. Note: All of these benchmarks were done for Berry Juice variants only (Sorry Eviolite Vull users ).

HP Benchmarks:

HP

24 HP (36 EVs):
- consume Berry Juice after switching into rocks twice (this only applies to exactly 24 HP)
- takes 1 extra HP damage from rocks
- survive Modest Life Orb Galarian Ponyta’s Dazzling Gleam

25 HP (116 EVs):
- survive an uninvested Mienfoo’s High Jump Kick after rocks
- survive an Offensive Mudbray’s Rock Slide after rocks
- survive an Offensive Staryu’s Ice Beam or Thunderbolt after rocks

combined with 15 Def (76 EVs):
- survive Timburr’s Ice Punch / Thunder Punch after rocks
- survive max Attack Ponyta’s Wild Charge after rocks

combined with 14 Sp Def (76 EVs):
- survive Chinchou’s Thunderbolt

combined with 15 Sp Def (156 EVs):
- survive Life Orb Abra’s Dazzling Gleam
- survive Focus Sash Abra’s Dazzling Gleam after rocks
- survive +1 Modest Porygon’s Tri Attack after rocks

combined with 17 Sp Def (236 EVs with +SpD nature):
- survive +1 Modest Porygon’s Ice Beam / Thunderbolt

Attack Benchmarks:

Attack

13 Attack (76 EVs):
- generally better rolls against other Vullaby
- reliably OHKO knocked off 15 Def fighters (rather than 75% of the time)

14 Attack (156 EVs):
- generally better rolls against just about everything (Mareanie, Foongus, Mudbray, fighters and more)
- 2HKO knocked Spritzee after rocks

15 Attack (236 EVs):
- generally better rolls against just about everything hit neutrally
- 2HKO knocked Spritzee with BB

16 Attack (236 EVs with +Atk nature):
- reliably OHKO 14 Def fighters after rocks
- OHKO Foongus after rocks
- high % to kill 25 HP / 14 Def Porygon with Knock Off into BB

Defense Benchmarks:

Defense

15 Def (76 EVs):
- survive an uninvested Mienfoo High Jump Kick after rocks
- survive a max attack Reckless Mienfoo High Jump Kick
- take generally less damage from many physical attacks

combined with 25 HP:
- survive Timburr’s Ice Punch / Thunder Punch after rocks
- survive max Attack Ponyta’s Wild Charge after rocks

"running more Defense does change some minor calcs but investing in other stats is almost always going to be a better option"

Special Attack Benchmarks:

Special Attack

12 Special Attack (76 EVs with a neutral nature)
- Knock Off into Heat Wave has high % to kill standard Pawniard after rocks

13 Special Attack (156 EVs with a neutral nature)
- Knock Off into Heat Wave has high % to kill standard Pawniard

15 Special Attack (236 EVs with +SpA nature)
- OHKO Foongus after rocks at +2
- OHKO knocked 24 HP / 12 SpD Mareanie after rocks at +2 (w/ Dark Pulse)

Special Defense Benchmarks:

Special Defense

14 Special Defense (76 EVs):
combined with 25 HP:
- survive Chinchou’s Thunderbolt

15 Special Defense (156 EVs):
combined with 25 HP:
- survive a Focus Sash Abra Dazzling gleam after rocks
- survive a Life Orb Abra Dazzling Gleam
- survive +1 Modest Porygon’s Tri Attack after rocks

17 Special Defense (236 EVs with +SpD nature)
combined with 25 HP:
- survive +1 Modest Porygon’s Ice Beam / Thunderbolt

Speed Benchmarks

Speed

13 Speed (36 EVs):
- outspeed fast Spritzee, Porygon
- outspeed Abra, Ponyta (both formes), Staryu under Sticky Webs

14 Speed (116 EVs):
- outspeed the vast majority of slow Mienfoo
- outspeed slow Mudbray, slow Mareanie, Corphish
- outspeed Timid Dewpider

15 Speed (196 EVs):
- more likely to outspeed Vullaby and Pawniard
- outspeed fast Timburr and Corphish
- outspeed +1 Ponyta and +1 Staryu after a Weak Armor boost

16 Speed (196 EVs with +Spe nature):
- significantly more likely to outspeed Vullaby and Pawniard
- reliably outspeed Berry Juice Magnemite
- outspeed fast Mareanie, fast Mudbray
- outspeed Choice Scarf Diglett after Weak Armor boost

Hope this helped! Feel free to let me know if there are any incorrect calcs or other important calcs i might have missed.

 

[PyProd]

I'd see Pawniard be relevant with Abra returning, maybe a mention on your Vulla guide of the Heat Wave spread that heavily dents Pawn (and Ferro) could be worth?

 

[Shouting]

fwiw, fletch did get dual wingbeat so if you slap hdb on it, you can pretty much guarantee Gale Wings Prio, giving it a small niche of revenge killing abra pretty safely since it goes through counter and sash ( you gotta be +ATK nature, which kinda blows tho) . It also picks off mienfoo who can be pretty scary otherwise. Kinda fails against anything remotely bulky though, and obviously cannot switch in on anything.

Quick ban abra lol.