Metagame Metagame Discussion Thread

Kipkluif

Liever Kips leverworst
is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
I don't know if this will make any sense, but I think it might be worth our time to consider suspecting Mienfoo. Mienfoo is probably the best pokémon in LC right now, it still has all the tools it had last gen that made it great. The deletion of moves didn't really affect Mienfoo, because it didn't run hidden power and nothing ran hidden power (or pursuit) for Mienfoo. What did change however is that Gastly got banned and Spritzee got worse, which means High Jump Kick is way less risky of a move to use. Pokémon like Foongus or Mareanie can be worn down if they are hit by Knock Off and then have to switch into Mienfoo again, especially if it runs a Reckless set. This also means it's breaking and cleaning capabilities with a Choice band or Scarf respectively have also gotten a lot more dangerous, as it requires less team support to make these sets work effectively. Meanwhile, it's bulky Regenerator sets still work just as well as last generation, so you can still just U-turn out of any bad matchup without really getting punished for it. The deletion of Z-moves means neither Onix nor Vullaby can be as threatening as it could be without a boost, as both could viably run a STAB Z-move to increase their power. This makes the window to punish U-turn even smaller, practically never outweighing the health regained by Regenerator. Mienfoo's main competition, Timburr, has also not been as effective this generation, which makes it so that there is really no downside to running Mienfoo. I am aware that this does not make Mienfoo broken in the traditional sense, but a pokémon with little to no negative 1-on-1 matchups depending on its set, with unpredictability between those sets and practically no downside to running it is worth looking into in my opinion.
 
Last edited:
I don't think Mienfoo is anymore broken than Vullaby and the general consensus is that Vullaby is really good but it's such an important element of the metagame that banning it would probably have unforeseeable consequences. Mienfoo is the same imo. It's really good at what it does which is basically pivoting and spamming HJK endgame. Easy protip to beat HJK spam: Protect. Slap spritz on a team. Bring a scarf mon or something with >=18 Speed. Eviolite Mienfoo is also a mon used to "soak up" Knock Off spam so it loses 1/3 of it's bulk right away (still has regen but nobody is claiming regen is broken.... I hope). It is a _very_ good S tier (maybe S+ if such a thing exists) and doesn't have many downsides, but it's kind of just the same old Mienfoo of last gen and was equally if not moreso affected by the lack of Z-moves as the examples you highlighted. I hate dealing with Mienfoo as much as the next guy/gal, but it's very manageable with intelligent play (not saying you are not an intelligent player!) and teambuilding that takes into account major metagame threats, of which Mienfoo is one. Personally, I think Vullaby is, was and always has been a much more difficult mon to handle from jumpstreet than Mienfoo.

Also, just saying if we free Gastly that's a pretty good Mienfoo check. (FREE GASTLY!)
 
I should preface this with: I don’t really have a strong opinion either way. I think the metagame is in an “ok” state, and any issues I might have with it are retreaded issues that lc has been dealing with for generations. Despite this, I think there is definitely merit in suspecting mienfoo. At the very least it’s the most suspect-able mon currently. The problem with foo isn’t necessarily HJK spam. Yes it’s strong af but it’s definitely not easily spammable, with accuracy and protect issues. Sure, CB Foo has some insane calcs, but it’s still fairly gimmicky imo. Meinfoo’s strengths come from its amazing support tools, regen, and the fact that it can win 1v1s vs most mons, or at the very least knock, turn, and repeat with very little drawbacks. And yes having a super strong stab doesn’t hurt. Mienfoo is literally the best lead for these exact reasons. You get either free chip damage with fake out, an early knock, or simply valuable momentum. Even mons that have the tools to possibly win vs mienfoo in 1v1 scenarios often fall flat depending on the right foo spread and the fact that foo can be played aggressive as fuck while still being able to heal up later. It’s the best defensive mon in the tier because of how offensively inclined it is. It has the perfect mix of defense and offense to not only check most things, but also break holes when it needs to. I don’t really think there’s an argument for foo keeping anything in particular in check either, it basically just blankets whatever it can. Obviously, as I alluded to earlier, we’ve dealt with mienfoo forever now, so why would it be suspect worthy now? Again, I’m not fully on one side or the other, but I think you can point to the lack of smashers which might sway people to use timburr in other scenarios, the overall lack of viable ghosts (mostly gastly), and although this applies to every mon, lack of z moves helping to break past defensive checks / pivots. Seemingly smaller factors, but some food for thought.
 
Mienfoo doesn't seem overly powerful. He's a very strong mon, but not impossible to kill. If you banned Mienfoo, a whole lot of people would have to change their teams as well. Flying types are good counters for him, as he will probably not HJK, If he U-turns, then you can damage some other members until he comes out again. He is very good, no denying that, but not too good to the point of banning him.
 

Corporal Levi

ninjadog of the decade
is a Site Content Manageris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Team Rater Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnus
Moderator
Following up on this post:
- Swagger and Baton Pass will be banned from BW LC.
- the Hypnosis ban in DPP LC will be replaced with a ban on all sleep moves.
The Immortal

I made descriptions for votes optional so only a couple of users submitted them, but if you're curious as to why these bans were made, all the logs are available in the council discord servers.
BW - https://discord.gg/fmkMWpV
DPP - https://discord.gg/QWaqtRQ

This vote was split into two parts.

In the first part, users voted on
1. whether to revert the metagame to some earlier metagame (the metagame to be reverted to would be discussed if this passed).
2. whether to nerf Sand Veil/Swagger Diglett in some way (what was getting banned would be discussed if this passed).
3. whether to ban Baton Pass.


Joltage's reasoning:
1. no revert. but if there is a revert i believe it should be a full revert and hard lock.
2. yes. it's just an actively frustrating and unfun style that does nothing to show skill expression
3. yes. would pref some way to maintain quick and dry pass tho i do understand why that is not an ideal option policy wise

Plas's reasoning:
1 (Revert to earlier meta )- No. Not opposed but I like how current bw lc is minus the 2 things being discussed.
2 (Nerfing Swagveil)- Yes. I'd just ban swagger and see how it flows but open for whatever regardless if meta is reverted
3. (Baton Pass) Yes. Think just speed passing in general is dumb. I'm down for SD/NP/Sub pass to still exist.

Reversion needed 50% + 1 votes to go through as it mostly consisted of unbans, but only got 9/18 votes. Nerfing Diglett and banning Baton Pass needed 60% to pass since they were bans, and both reached this threshold.

In the second part, since we had decided to nerf Sand Veil/Swagger Diglett, users voted on
1. whether to ban Sand Veil.
2. whether to ban Swagger.



Sand Veil needed 12 votes to reach 60% and only obtained 11, so it was not banned. Swagger had more than 60% of the votes so it was banned.

Users voted on
1. how to deal with sleep:
a) maintain hypnosis ban only
b) ban all sleep moves
c) revert hypnosis ban

2. how to deal with sand veil:
a) ban
b) dnb
c) other (explain)

3. how to deal with machop/no guard/dynamicpunch:
a) ban
b) dnb
c) other (explain)



I went with the most popular option for dealing with sleep (banning all sleep moves), which in this case was also the supermajority. Sand Veil and Machop needed 60% of the votes to be banned and did not reach this threshold.

Thank you to everybody who participated!
 
Okay, so first off, yes this is a hairbrained scheme, and yes it's not fully worked out concept, but here me out.

There are a handful of pokemon that are single-stage and absolute wankers in terms of viability in the real world of pokemon. They have almost no use and are pretty just bad overall. I also don't know which ones of these I'm about to rattle off are even available this generation. Giving a cursory glance at this list: https://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/List_of_Pokémon_that_are_not_part_of_an_evolutionary_line :
Farfetch'd, Unown (I know this isnt in this gen, and im ignoring it anyway), Delibird, Corsola, Plusle, Minun, Spinda, Castform, Luvdisc, Pachurisu spring out as possible candidates.

Now I know what you're thinking, "this is a stupid idea" and you're probably correct. But It's also just mons, and LC isn't a "real" tier (in that it has implicit restrictions upon it that others do not) so technically, we as the people can be flexible in our definition of LC. And all words are made up and change meaning over time anyway.

Of these, Corsola will probably be too fat, 85/85 w/evio + regen is a pain, although Grookey, Ferro and Mushroom are pretty common.

Farfetch'd: just seems like a worser version of -Galar.

Delibird: would be cool! kinda weak so wont OP things, has hustle but hustle blows back pretty often, is SR weak x2 which means it has to run HDB or Evio but cant do both.

Plusle/Minun: honestly would probably be LC UU. they offer nothing that other electric types cant and speed ties with diglett.

castform: idk? might be cool with vulpix to spam weather ball or something. again, pretty weak and slow and gimmicky. has some nice coverage options though.

luvdisc: also speed ties with diglett. fast water, but i think staryu is still better.

pachurisu: probably bad.

spinda: no idea. normal isnt very good, but contrary might be cool to spam close combat and lose to frillish.


So upon further review, only like 2 of these pokemon are even allowed, but im not erasing all that.Mons we have: Farfetch'd, Delibird, Corsola.

The meta is stable (and kinda stale) I don't see any harm in having a wee bit of experimentation, and see how things shake out. It's definitely not within policy, and there's no precedent, but that's a pretty facile argument, imo. Worst case scenario: they are too strong and stay out of the tier. Best case scenario: we get some new toys that are viable and shake up the metagame. Most likely scenario: we get some new mons that aren't that good and don't really have much of an impact. Thoughts?

as earl pointed out below: i am dumb
 
Last edited:

Gummy

...three, smiles go for miles!
LC isn't a "real" tier (in that it has implicit restrictions upon it that others do not) so technically, we as the people can be flexible in our definition of LC.
This isn't even true. LC is probably the only "real" tier other than VGC or Battle Spot in that it exists ingame (since 2000, with battle stadium 2) and has built in restrictions. We just go by the game's rules; same reason we don't have 7 team members, or 3 abilities.
 

KSG

your favorite player's favorite player
is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
I am proposing that we suspect Sticky Web. I don't think webs are a healthy influence on current LC and banning the move is the most effective and direct method of dealing with it. This has been brought to the forefront by several Snake LC games, most notably by dcae bringing nearly identical teams several weeks in a row. Webs' most classic form involves a lot of frail heavy-hitters like Abra, Vulpix, and Sturdy Magnemite, though more recently we've seen the rise of set-up spam webs - Grookey, Scraggy, Woobat, and NP Vullaby. All of these mons have had varying degrees of discussion as to whether they're broken on their own merits; Webs enables a full teams of these mons by reducing the need for defensive stiffness. Webs helps Scraggy outspeed all of the viable scarfers (Mienfoo, Vulpix, Magnemite) after a Dragon Dance; Webs prevents the few mons that can reliably KO Grassy Seed Woobat (Head Smash Onix, Magnemite) from hitting it before it hits them; it does the same for NP Vullaby with those threats, with the added measure that NP Vullaby is extremely difficult for non-Onix builds to deal with even without webs. Grookey's threat is the most independent of Webs thanks to its speed and strong priority, but Grassy Glide reliably forces out one of the former most reliable webs checks, Wingull.

Webs counterplay is difficult now too. There are three viable removal options in the tier right now - Vullaby, Wingull, and Staryu. Focus Sash Dewpider can set Webs on each of these mons 1v1 with the help of Icy Wind and Giga Drain, though Wingull can threaten by setting a sub. Vullaby, as one of the few Ground-immunes, has its longevity severely tested in webs games by taking hits from Dewpider and Grookey. Choice Scarf Vullaby is not very good right now because of the opportunity cost of being able to threaten opposing cores with Knock into Brave Bird or Heat Wave. Wingull struggles with set-up spam webs because Grookey can headshot it on any turn and it does nothing versus +1 Scraggy. Air Balloon Diglett can still make picks with Final Gambit, but the rise of Scraggy, which survives a 19 HP Gambit and outspeeds at +1, and NP Vullaby, which outspeeds with Weak Armor, makes Balloon Dig less of a silver bullet.

There are, in my opinion, several sweepers that strain the limits of the tier on their own - NP Vullaby, Grookey, Woobat, and Scraggy among them - and Webs makes all of these threats intolerable. Moreover, webs makes for extremely linear games that hinge on the setting and removal of webs - if the opposing player can't contest webs, there's often little recourse. Webs should be suspect for the health of the tier.
 

Altariel von Sweep

DRINK FROM THE WINE FROM THE WRATH OF GOD
is a Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Top Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
Long time no see, fellas.

With the coming of the Tundra Crown DLC, I thought it was a good time to come back to the metagame after a long season of hiatus. With some of the newly added Pokemon, as well as some metagame prominent tendencies, I decided to build some teams to show my insight of the metagame. With so many offensive threats and so little counterplay, I realized Type Spam is able to crush many of the commonly seen teams around, which is why I present you here Fighting Spam and (this is a surprise!) Grass Spam. I will go over them explaining their purpose while I explain some of the Pokemon featured in them.

FIGHTING SPAM

Scraggy @ Berry Juice
Ability: Shed Skin
Level: 5
EVs: 36 HP / 236 Atk / 212 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- High Jump Kick
- Knock Off
- Zen Headbutt

Mienfoo @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Reckless
Level: 5
EVs: 236 Atk / 36 SpD / 236 Spe
Jolly Nature
- High Jump Kick
- Knock Off
- U-turn
- Toxic

Foongus @ Eviolite
Ability: Regenerator
Level: 5
EVs: 124 HP / 156 Def / 156 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Spore
- Synthesis
- Giga Drain
- Sludge Bomb

Archen @ Eviolite
Ability: Defeatist
Level: 5
EVs: 76 HP / 20 Atk / 76 Def / 76 SpD / 196 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dual Wingbeat
- Rock Blast
- Defog
- Roost

Diglett @ Focus Sash
Ability: Arena Trap
Level: 5
EVs: 36 HP / 236 Atk / 236 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Memento
- Sucker Punch
- Earthquake

Magnemite @ Berry Juice
Ability: Sturdy
Level: 5
EVs: 236 SpA / 236 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Volt Switch
- Flash Cannon
- Endure
- Recycle


The first team I made was a Type Spam which featured Scraggy and Mienfoo, the latter firing off strong High Jump Kicks to weaken the opposing team in order for Scraggy to clean then after a Dragon Dance. Coupled to them, Memento + Stealth Rock Diglett compresses the utility Scraggy needs in order to ease its chances of setting up against a Pokemon Scraggy can stay on like Foongus, Ferroseed, and Mareanie. Thanks to Shed Skin and Berry Juice, it does not fear getting crippled with status or being chipped away, so it can use the chance to setup quickly and then destroy the opposing team. The main issue for this core is that neither of them are able to get past Spritzee, which is why Mienfoo runs Toxic as a way to set a timer on Spritzee and cripple its role as a Wish user and Fighting-type check.

One of the most important points of the team is how Archen is able to compress the roles of Defogger and Flying-type check thanks to the addition of both Dual Wingbeat and Rock Blast, meaning Eviolite + Roost further increases its durability without having to run Acrobatics as a Flying STAB move. While Rock Blast may not be as solid as it sounds, it helps to pop Berry Juice off Vullaby, so it loses its recovery. Leaving that fact aside, the given spread is able to OHKO all offensive variants of Mienfoo, as well as the 24/15/12 bulk variant, and Timburr after some chip damage, and Foongus after Stealth Rock.

20 Atk Archen Dual Wingbeat (2 hits) vs. 236 HP / 196+ Def Eviolite Mienfoo: 16-24 (66.6 - 100%) -- approx. 6.3% chance to OHKO
20 Atk Archen Dual Wingbeat (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 156 Def Eviolite Timburr: 16-24 (66.6 - 100%) -- approx. 6.3% chance to OHKO
20 Atk Archen Dual Wingbeat (2 hits) vs. 124 HP / 156+ Def Eviolite Foongus: 16-24 (64 - 96%) -- approx. 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock


Finally, I would like to talk about Magnemite. Magnet Pull is definitely not usable due to the lack of coverage to trap the prominent Steel-types, leaving SturdyJuice as the best variat to exist, being able to break essential Pokemon for cores such as Spritzee and Mareanie easily for the Fighting spam duo to punch holes through the opponent. It also acts as a secondary Flying-type check due to its reusable durability and provides momentum thanks to Volt Switch. It is also the team's main switch-in to Abra (except for Shadow Ball variants after chip damage) and a good glue to this team.

Lastly, I am quite excited to show you what might be my favourite team that I have built during Sword and Shield metagame:

GRASS SPAM

Grookey @ Life Orb
Ability: Grassy Surge
Level: 5
EVs: 236 Atk / 36 Def / 236 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Grassy Glide
- Wood Hammer
- Knock Off
- U-turn

Treecko @ Grassy Seed
Ability: Unburden
Level: 5
EVs: 236 Atk / 156 Def / 116 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Acrobatics
- Drain Punch
- Bullet Seed
- Swords Dance

Salandit @ Berry Juice
Ability: Corrosion
Level: 5
EVs: 52 HP / 188 SpA / 36 SpD / 220 Spe
Timid Nature
- Fire Blast
- Knock Off
- Sludge Bomb
- Substitute

Omanyte @ Eviolite
Ability: Weak Armor
Level: 5
EVs: 156 HP / 116 SpA / 236 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stealth Rock
- Earth Power
- Scald
- Ice Beam

Vullaby (F) @ Berry Juice
Ability: Weak Armor
Level: 5
EVs: 116 HP / 76 Def / 156 SpD / 116 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Knock Off
- Brave Bird
- U-turn
- Defog

Timburr @ Eviolite
Ability: Iron Fist
Level: 5
EVs: 196 Atk / 156 Def / 156 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Knock Off
- Thunder Punch
- Drain Punch
- Mach Punch

You will be probably wondering, Treecko!? Yup, that's the deal here, but in order to understand the reason why Treecko is here, we need to look at it individually, and then talk about the purpose it fulfills alongside Grookey.


Treecko @ Grassy Seed
Ability: Unburden
Level: 5
EVs: 236 Atk / 156 Def / 116 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Acrobatics
- Drain Punch
- Bullet Seed
- Swords Dance


At first glance Treecko seems quite frail and weak without boosting itself in spite of having a decent Speed tier in 17, but it makes up for it having decent coverage options in Drain Punch, Acrobatics and its main STAB move: Bullet Seed. The sole influence of Grassy Terrain allows it to instantly activate its Grassy Seed and thus activating Unburden to outspeed every single relevant Pokemon in the metagame. A quick rundown on the EVs let us know that Treecko needs to hit as strong as possible, while being fast enough to punch holes through teams. The Defense investment is the most interesting point of all, as it allows it to reach a decent benchmark of 12 Defense, which boosted is able to hold on its feet against the likes of Pawniard, Grookey and Onix, and set up against them. After a Swords Dance boost, Treecko is able to do the impossible like OHKOing Vullaby after Stealth Rock, Mudbray, Timburr, Foongus, Mienfoo, and even OHKO bulkier threats such as Spritzee, Mareanie and defensive Porygon with Bullet Seed powered up by Grassy Terrain, as well as defeat Abra thanks to its multi-hit properties. Here some calculations of interest:

156 Atk Pawniard Iron Head vs. +1 0 HP / 156 Def Treecko: 9-12 (45 - 60%) -- 12.1% chance to 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
156 Atk Pawniard Sucker Punch vs. +1 0 HP / 156 Def Treecko: 7-10 (35 - 50%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery

Non-Life Orb
236 Atk Grookey Wood Hammer vs. +1 0 HP / 156 Def Treecko in Grassy Terrain: 8-9 (40 - 45%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
236 Atk Grookey Grassy Glide vs. +1 0 HP / 156 Def Treecko in Grassy Terrain: 4-6 (20 - 30%) -- 0.1% chance to 4HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery

Life Orb
236 Atk Life Orb Grookey Wood Hammer vs. +1 0 HP / 156 Def Treecko in Grassy Terrain: 10-12 (50 - 60%) -- 75% chance to 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
236 Atk Life Orb Grookey Grassy Glide vs. +1 0 HP / 156 Def Treecko in Grassy Terrain: 5-8 (25 - 40%) -- 0.9% chance to 3HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery

236 Atk Onix Head Smash vs. +1 0 HP / 156 Def Treecko: 13-16 (65 - 80%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery


+2 236+ Atk Treecko Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 236 HP / 196+ Def Eviolite Mienfoo: 22-28 (91.6 - 116.6%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

Defensive Pivot
+2 236+ Atk Treecko Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 116 HP / 76 Def Vullaby: 16-19 (64 - 76%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Offensive Pivot
+2 236+ Atk Treecko Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 76 Def Vullaby: 16-19 (69.5 - 82.6%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 236+ Atk Treecko Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 156 Def Eviolite Timburr: 22-28 (91.6 - 116.6%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

+2 236+ Atk Treecko Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 124 HP / 156+ Def Eviolite Foongus: 22-28 (88 - 112%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

+2 236+ Atk Treecko Bullet Seed (4 hits) vs. 212 HP / 196+ Def Eviolite Spritzee in Grassy Terrain: 24-28 (88.8 - 103.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 236+ Atk Treecko Bullet Seed (4 hits) vs. 196 HP / 20+ Def Eviolite Mareanie in Grassy Terrain: 24-28 (100 - 116.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Agility
+2 236+ Atk Treecko Bullet Seed (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Porygon in Grassy Terrain: 18-21 (78.2 - 91.3%) -- approx. 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Defensive
+2 236+ Atk Treecko Bullet Seed (4 hits) vs. 236 HP / 196 Def Eviolite Porygon in Grassy Terrain: 24-28 (92.3 - 107.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock


The only drawback Treecko has is only getting revenge killed by Trapinch's First Impression which always OHKOes no matter what. It also needs a form of entering the battlefield by switching with either double switches or momentum, and, as shown above, needs some slight support to fully break teams even though the calculations show its insane power. With all of this, coupled with Grookey's sheer power with Life Orb + Grassy Terrain boosted STAB attacks in Wood Hammer and Grassy Glide to pick off weakened opponents and momentum and utility in U-turn and Knock Off, Treecko becomes a swifty and deadly wallbreaker when used correctly.

To add consistency, Salandit was added in order to sever defensive Pokemon that the aforementioned core would struggle with such as Ferroseed, Spritzee and Foongus (even though Treecko can beat it if it forces a switch and sets up), as well as provide help against bulkier threats by removing Eviolites and Berry Juices with Knock Off.

One of the newly added fossil Pokemon, Omanyte, was my choice for a Stealth Rock setter. The niche it fulfills here allows it to even withstand Mudbray thanks to Grassy Terrain weakening Earthquake and the recovery of said terrain, OHKOing it after Stealth Rock with Scald. It is also a really solid Flying-type check thanks to Eviolite Weak Armor, outspeeding several threats and taking advantage of them switching out to either fire off powerful moves or set Stealth Rock up. Lastly, Vullaby and Timburr give consistency to the team and glue it up.

It has been fun so far, and I onder how will the metagame evolve. For now, I still have to try many different things, so I encourage you to post your thoughts on the metagame!
 
Hello Little Cuppers.

With the recent suspect test, I brought an underexplored Pokémon to battle, and it was of surprising effectiveness. Thus, I've wanted to share my findings with you in a hopefully short post, just as I did with a RMT back at the ending of the SM Metagame, when I played Koffing before it was cool.

Here is the team I used to get reqs:


1604747254151.png
A pretty straightforward team, and with pretty common mons, if not for what you've all noticed: a Wooper (and, well, Galarian-Ponyta can be discussed as well as it isn't exactly common too). And now my goal thus isn't to give you a lecture about the team, as you probably care as much as I do about it, which means not that much, but to focus on that peculiar presence.

My goal when choosing this bad boy over better bulky Water-type options such as the resilient Mareanie, Slowpoke, Shellos or the fast Staryu was its ability to compress both the bulky Water-type and the bulky Ground-type in a slot. As such, it is one of the only Pokémon virtually capable of checking Magnemite, Chinchou, Elekid, Ponyta, Vulpix, Koffing, while also being able to switch in on resisted attacks from the likes of Archen and threaten back. It was also notably able to offensively threaten Mareanie, which feels relevant enough for me.

Another great trait of this Pokémon resides in its ability Unaware, and it was my second reason for choosing it. In a very setup-heavy metagame, I figured out Wooper could fit in and shine. Thanks to its unique ability in the metagame, it can check plenty of setup sweepers such as Dragon Dance Onix, Belly Drum Magby, Shell Smash Shellder, Tirtouga and Omanyte, but also Download Porygon, Nasty Plot Vullaby, and everything that is Woobat thanks to Haze. I originally had Toxic over Haze, but a friend (qweschuning) pointed out to me the usefulness that Haze could have. Paired with a Foongus, I had a defensive backbone that could take on most of the setup sweepers of the metagame, with Foongus notably checking Grookey, certain sets of Scraggy, and having its Spore button as a last resort to deal with less threats.

As a consequence, I felt exploring Wooper, which has a good matchup against most of what Webs and offensive playstyles tend to carry, could be worth. And it actually worked quite well for me, by keeping in check presences such as Ponyta, Magnemite, Woobat, Nasty Plot Vullaby, and such. It has proven a worthy teammate throughout my run on the ladder, netting me my first reqs.

And that is how you can find a jewel in hay, or should I say in cobwebs.
 

San Tomas

had a Calm Mind
is a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
Sorry for double post, but here are the end of the season stats for Snake!

Cumulative

Code:
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon            | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Vullaby            |   80 |  85.11% |  51.25% |
| 2    | Mienfoo            |   53 |  56.38% |  47.17% |
| 3    | Pawniard           |   51 |  54.26% |  52.94% |
| 4    | Diglett            |   39 |  41.49% |  51.28% |
| 5    | Onix               |   32 |  34.04% |  40.62% |
| 6    | Mareanie           |   27 |  28.72% |  51.85% |
| 7    | Scraggy            |   26 |  27.66% |  65.38% |
| 7    | Ferroseed          |   26 |  27.66% |  50.00% |
| 9    | Grookey            |   24 |  25.53% |  58.33% |
| 10   | Foongus            |   20 |  21.28% |  55.00% |
| 11   | Staryu             |   19 |  20.21% |  47.37% |
| 12   | Abra               |   18 |  19.15% |  50.00% |
| 13   | Koffing            |   15 |  15.96% |  46.67% |
| 14   | Porygon            |   14 |  14.89% |  57.14% |
| 14   | Dewpider           |   14 |  14.89% |  42.86% |
| 16   | Timburr            |   12 |  12.77% |  33.33% |
| 17   | Mudbray            |   11 |  11.70% |  63.64% |
| 18   | Magnemite          |   10 |  10.64% |  50.00% |
| 18   | Wingull            |   10 |  10.64% |  40.00% |
| 18   | Spritzee           |   10 |  10.64% |  20.00% |
| 21   | Vulpix             |    7 |   7.45% |  28.57% |
| 22   | Trapinch           |    6 |   6.38% |  50.00% |
| 23   | Woobat             |    5 |   5.32% | 100.00% |
| 23   | Ponyta-Galar       |    5 |   5.32% |  40.00% |
| 23   | Ponyta             |    5 |   5.32% |   0.00% |
| 26   | Frillish           |    4 |   4.26% |  50.00% |
| 27   | Dwebble            |    3 |   3.19% | 100.00% |
| 27   | Bunnelby           |    3 |   3.19% |  33.33% |
| 29   | Shellder           |    2 |   2.13% | 100.00% |
| 29   | Slowpoke           |    2 |   2.13% |  50.00% |
| 31   | Zorua              |    1 |   1.06% | 100.00% |
| 31   | Pancham            |    1 |   1.06% | 100.00% |
| 31   | Stunky             |    1 |   1.06% | 100.00% |
| 31   | Squirtle           |    1 |   1.06% | 100.00% |
| 31   | Natu               |    1 |   1.06% | 100.00% |
| 31   | Farfetch’d-Galar   |    1 |   1.06% |   0.00% |
| 31   | Sandshrew-Alola    |    1 |   1.06% |   0.00% |
| 31   | Snover             |    1 |   1.06% |   0.00% |
| 31   | Skrelp             |    1 |   1.06% |   0.00% |
| 31   | Budew              |    1 |   1.06% |   0.00% |
| 31   | Zigzagoon          |    1 |   1.06% |   0.00% |

Semifinals

Code:
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon            | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Vullaby            |    4 | 100.00% |  50.00% |
| 2    | Ferroseed          |    2 |  50.00% |  50.00% |
| 2    | Abra               |    2 |  50.00% |  50.00% |
| 2    | Koffing            |    2 |  50.00% |  50.00% |
| 2    | Onix               |    2 |  50.00% |  50.00% |
| 2    | Pawniard           |    2 |  50.00% |  50.00% |
| 2    | Mienfoo            |    2 |  50.00% |  50.00% |
| 8    | Scraggy            |    1 |  25.00% | 100.00% |
| 8    | Grookey            |    1 |  25.00% | 100.00% |
| 8    | Foongus            |    1 |  25.00% | 100.00% |
| 8    | Mudbray            |    1 |  25.00% | 100.00% |
| 8    | Staryu             |    1 |  25.00% |   0.00% |
| 8    | Diglett            |    1 |  25.00% |   0.00% |
| 8    | Mareanie           |    1 |  25.00% |   0.00% |
| 8    | Timburr            |    1 |  25.00% |   0.00% |

Finals

Code:
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon            | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Vullaby            |    2 | 100.00% |  50.00% |
| 1    | Grookey            |    2 | 100.00% |  50.00% |
| 3    | Dewpider           |    1 |  50.00% | 100.00% |
| 3    | Pawniard           |    1 |  50.00% | 100.00% |
| 3    | Woobat             |    1 |  50.00% | 100.00% |
| 3    | Scraggy            |    1 |  50.00% | 100.00% |
| 3    | Mienfoo            |    1 |  50.00% |   0.00% |
| 3    | Diglett            |    1 |  50.00% |   0.00% |
| 3    | Foongus            |    1 |  50.00% |   0.00% |
| 3    | Onix               |    1 |  50.00% |   0.00% |

Notable Trends:
  • To no one's surprise, Vullaby ended with 85% usage rate and above 50% WR. The bird was very good when sporting Heat Wave (15 uses, 73% WR) and Endure (6 uses, 100% WR). It formed a good duo with both Pawniard and Mienfoo (each seeing 44 uses as a duo and having over 50% WR).
  • Scraggy was a controversial topic as a broken setup sweeper and for good reasons. The highest WR cores (trio with over 10 uses) all had Scraggy in it. Scrag, Vull, & Pawn (17 uses, 71% WR), Scrag, Pawn, & Grook (12 uses, 75% WR), and Vull, Grook, & Scrag (11 uses, 72% WR) were used a decent amount and won alot.
  • Everybody's favorite Webs team (Dewpider, Vullaby, Pawniard, Scraggy, Grookey, and Woobat) was the winnest team in LC, going 4 for 4.
This is the total-season stats post for Snake. Excellent work from our man DC. Discussion on here is a bit anemic lately, so let me ask a couple questions.
  • The winningest trio DC talked about was the triple-Dark core of Scraggy, Vullaby, and Pawniard. Every other core he listed was some variant of Grookey-Double Dark. What is it about Dark-types that make them so dominant in the current metagame?
  • The other core I've been trying to build against lately is Mienfoo-Vullaby-Pawniard. It's such a solid core in the metagame! What's your favorite way to build against this powerful trio?
  • How in the world did Ponyta only get 5 uses and win 0 times when it theoretically matches up so well with the top-three and the top-ten level defensive Grasses?
As for my own takes...

I'm asking cause I got no idea! I've been thinking about these questions for a while tbh. Go for it!
 

Kipkluif

Liever Kips leverworst
is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
What is it about Dark-types that make them so dominant in the current metagame?
The lack of viable Fairy-types and Fairy coverage is hugely beneficial for Darkspam. Not only is Spritzee a lot less relevant than last gen, the two most prominent Dazzling Gleam users Abra (less good) and Gastly (banned) are also not as much of a factor anymore. This means Dark-types rarely have shared weaknesses, as they all take neutral damage from Bug-type attacks and Vullaby isn't weak to Fighting-type attacks. Because of this, you can exploit the benefits of typespam without much of the weaknesses that usually accompany it.
What's your favorite way to build against this powerful trio?
I've used 16 defense Vullaby with Roost to try tanking and outdamaging the core, but it doesn't check Scraggy reliably in that it sometimes still gets to set up and use substitute until you are in killing range from recoil damage. I've tried using Dazzling Gleam Staryu, which works fine until you run into a Mareanie, Foongus, or a Scraggy that has already Dragon Danced. I've used Timburr and Mienfoo on the same team, but had a hard time dealing with Vullaby and other Flying-types like Archen or Wingull when encountered. Also, they can still die to Scraggy if worn down. Scraggy is busted.
How in the world did Ponyta only get 5 uses and win 0 times when it theoretically matches up so well with the top-three and the top-ten level defensive Grasses?
I feel like hazard removal is at a very low point right now, which is also why Sticky Web is so popular. Ponyta still has to take 25% every time it switches in, and especially against the Knock Off-heavy Dark cores your durability is a lot lower than you'd think. Ponyta is on paper a good check to Fighting-types due to being a fast Will-o-Wisp user, but Koffing trades speed for actually resisting Fighting and an immunity to trapping, making it outclassed in this role. Not getting trapped is also what makes Koffing better against Grass-types, while also denying Foongus it's Regenerator recovery and Woobat it's double defense boost if it tries to switch in after you've switched into a Grookey, whereas Ponyta doesn't have those perks and can be setup bait for Woobat.
 
My quick thoughts:
the trio DC talked about was the triple-Dark core of Scraggy, Vullaby, and Pawniard. Every other core he listed was some variant of Grookey-Double Dark. What is it about Dark-types that make them so dominant in the current metagame?
The lack of viable fairy types let dark types have an advantage. Most dark types have different counters too, and they pair well together. For example, Pawniard is countered by Fighting types, but a switch into your weak armor Vullaby+ a Brave bird and there goes your fighting type. Flying can threaten Scraggy, butt Pawniard checks most Flying types. Vullaby is threatened by Magnemite, but Scraggy threatens with HJK.

  • The other core I've been trying to build against lately is Mienfoo-Vullaby-Pawniard. It's such a solid core in the metagame! What's your favorite way to build against this powerful trio?
Scraggy. After a DD Scraggy can usually beat Foo. Vullaby is threatened at least, and Pawniard get destroyed. Of course some Bulky variants can take a HJK and OHKO back, but that's why you carry other backup counters like Focus Blast Dazzling Gleam Sash Abra for Foo and kinda Vullaby. Timburr also does good against the core witch Guts/ Iron Fist Boosted Mach Punches and Thunder Punch.
 
Last edited:

zizalith

is a Site Content Manageris a Forum Moderatoris a Contributor to Smogon
Moderator
I feel like hazard removal is at a very low point right now, which is also why Sticky Web is so popular. Ponyta still has to take 25% every time it switches in, and especially against the Knock Off-heavy Dark cores your durability is a lot lower than you'd think. Ponyta is on paper a good check to Fighting-types due to being a fast Will-o-Wisp user, but Koffing trades speed for actually resisting Fighting and an immunity to trapping, making it outclassed in this role. Not getting trapped is also what makes Koffing better against Grass-types, while also denying Foongus it's Regenerator recovery and Woobat it's double defense boost if it tries to switch in after you've switched into a Grookey, whereas Ponyta doesn't have those perks and can be setup bait for Woobat.
wanna take a moment to talk abt ponyta.
i think eviolite is literal trash, its not a good check to anything, loses to webs, and it gets trapped and knocked in every game. no one should be using defensive pony in this meta. however i do think that offensive bj has a lot more potential as a wallbreaker, grookey check, and cleaner in 1 slot. this is what I've been using, courtesy of Gummy :psywoke:

:ponyta:
Ponyta @ Berry Juice
Ability: Flash Fire
Level: 5
EVs: 236 Atk / 76 Def / 196 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Flare Blitz
- High Horsepower
- Wild Charge
- Flame Charge

this thing has no switchins outside of munch (lol) and wa Onix, neither of which is super hard to switch into. it 2hkos mare, onix, and with hazards, ohkos vull, scraggy, woobat, staryu, and all dewp variants, which means its super threatening vs offense and bo alike. flame charge improves the webs mu significantly, seeing as how it can 2hko or ohko the entire archetype p easily and makes it a lot less prone to trapping unlike evio pony. not to mention that even though its way less bulky it can take a grookey glide like nothing. definitely a lot less defensive presence than evio although you wont be taking much hits outside of priority in general, and its also pretty easy to bluff the evio set just cause bj is pretty uncommon so you can lure stuff like mareanie or vull in or set up a flame charge. im pretty surprised this hasn't seen more usage bc grass and steel types are really good right now but i hope more ppl pick up on it!
 
I believe I have found a great offensive threat/ crippled in meowth, it is great to come out first where it can use fake out and disintegrate the opportunity of opposing fake outs/ set up on the fist turn.

Meowth @ Normal Gem
Ability: Technician
Level: 5
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 236 Atk / 36 SpD / 196 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Fake Out
- Covet
- U-turn
- Toxic

When using fake out it uses the gem so then you can covet the opposing moms item and the pivot out with u turn. If a bulky Mon is on the field after you coveted you can cripple it with toxic and switch out to a hard hitter like meinfoo or scraggy.
 

Corporal Levi

ninjadog of the decade
is a Site Content Manageris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Team Rater Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnus
Moderator
Hi all - for those of you who have been around for a while, you may remember that we used to do annual top 20 lists to get a rough gauge of the community's current thoughts on the metagame, just for fun. Here are some of the previous threads

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/metagame-discussion-thread.3587196/page-13#post-7435698
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/metagame-discussion-thread.3577966/post-7021918

The idea is simple: you send me your list of what you think are the 20 best mons in the current LC metagame, in order (discord or smogon PM is fine). After that, I'll compile them and post the stats. For example, your list might be as follows:
1. Vullaby
2. Mienfoo
3. Grookey
...
and so on, until what you think is the 20th best mon. You may also include more than 20 mons if you wish.

My follow-up post will include individual lists in addition to the summary. I understand that there are some tournaments going on right now, so please let me know if you would like your list to be anonymous and I will not include your name with your list; if too few users ask for their lists to be anonymous, then I can exclude all lists that were submitted anonymously.
 
Last edited:

Corporal Levi

ninjadog of the decade
is a Site Content Manageris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Team Rater Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnus
Moderator
I'm still looking for top 20 lists! I'd like to have at least 20 lists before I make a post (right now I only have 9).


On a separate note, we're going to be doing some old gen LC votes like we did a few months ago. I've added some users to the DPP and BW LC councils based on LCWC performance. The discords are the same as before:

BW - https://discord.gg/fmkMWpV
DPP - https://discord.gg/QWaqtRQ
We'll likely be discussing Sand Veil for BW and Swagger for DPP and vote on them in a week or two.

Again, I'm going to be pretty lax on the requirements to vote here - if you significantly helped out with prep in either of these or did well in a tour that I didn't account for, then shoot me a message so that I can look into adding you.

I'm going to leave XY be because my understanding is that we're still pretty comfortable with where it's at in terms of balance/diversity, but if there's enough disagreement with this then I will reconsider.


The BW and DPP votes went pretty smoothly last time, so I've decided that we can finally try to tackle SM LC in the same manner. This one is going to be messier because a majority of the current playerbase, including the current council, was active and involved during SM LC, and the metagame is identical to what we left off with. To start with, I've decided to invite the 58 users who meet one or more of the following requirements:

- played more than one SM LC game in the past LCWC or the past LCPL;
- started in SM LC in the LCPL of 2019;
- started in SM LC for a snake draft; or
- made the 2019 circuit playoffs.
I may have missed users who meet these requirements as I don't have access to the LCPL sheets - let me know if I missed you.

Also, I do NOT believe that this encompasses every user who saw success during SM LC and is qualified to vote here. These requirements are only intended to be a starting point, and I am absolutely looking to add users who may qualify through other factors. If I haven't invited you and you are interested in participating, don't take it to mean that I don't want your opinion; let me know if you feel that you have an informed stance on SM LC and its potential suspects, and unless you were totally uninvolved, I will add you more likely than not.

The discord is here - https://discord.gg/eTmtQp2pFg

So far, I've seen Webs, Vullaby, Diglett, and unbanning Wingull being brought up. Webs will almost surely be put a vote, but the others may need some policy discussion first.
 
Last edited:

Corporal Levi

ninjadog of the decade
is a Site Content Manageris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Team Rater Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnus
Moderator
Hi all - it's been a couple of weeks and I've now gotten 25 responses for the top 20 lists - as promised here they are. Let me know if you still want to submit your list and I'll add it. Thanks to everyone who participated!

anonymous-1
1. Vullaby
2. Mienfoo
3. Grookey
4. Scraggy
5. Diglett
6. Pawniard
7. Koffing
8. Foongus
9. Ferroseed
10. Porygon
11. Mareanie
12. Onix
13. Staryu
14. Timburr
15. Abra
16. Natu
17. Dewpider
18. Trapinch
19. Mudbray
20. Vulpix

anonymous-2
1. Mienfoo
2. Vullaby
3. Pawniard
4. Onix
5. Koffing
6. Grookey
7. Mareanie
8. Ferroseed
9. Diglett
10. Abra
11. Trapinch
12. Staryu
13. Timburr
14. Foongus
15. Scraggy
16. Porygon
17. Vulpix
18. Mudbray
19. Magnemite
20. Woobat

Boulicrok
1. Vullaby
2. Mienfoo
3. Grookey
4. Diglett
5. Ferroseed
6. Pawniard
7. Onix
8. Scraggy
9. Porygon
10. Koffing
11. Trapinch
12. Foongus
13. Staryu
14. Timburr
15. Mareanie
16. Woobat
17. Abra
18. Mudbray
19. Magnemite
20. Vulpix

CMDoge
1. Vullaby
2. Grookey
3. Porygon
4. Scraggy
5. Mienfoo
6. Pawniard
7. Koffing
8. Onix
9. Woobat
10. Mareanie
11. Diglett
12. Timburr
13. Ferroseed
14. Spritzee
15. Foongus
16. Trapinch
17. Tyrunt
18. Vulpix
19. Archen
20. Abra

coconut
1. Vullaby
2. Mienfoo
3. Grookey
4. Scraggy
5. Timburr
6. Onix
7. Pawniard
8. Koffing
9. Porygon
10. Diglett
11. Foongus
12. Staryu
13. Mareanie
14. Magnemite
15. Abra
16. Mudbray
17. Trapinch
18. Spritzee
19. Ponyta
20. Ponyta-Galar

DVS
1. Vullaby
2. Mienfoo
3. Grookey
4. Pawniard
5. Onix
6. Koffing
7. Ferroseed
8. Porygon
9. Diglett
10. Foongus
11. Scraggy
12. Staryu
13. Abra
14. Timburr
15. Trapinch
16. Mudbray
17. Mareanie
18. Magnemite
19. Dewpider
20. Woobat

fiend
1. Vullaby
2. Mienfoo
3. Pawniard
4. Onix
5. Grookey
6. Koffing
7. Diglett
8. Foongus
9. Scraggy
10. Timburr
11. Ferroseed
12. Staryu
13. Mareanie
14. Porygon
15. Trapinch
16. Abra
17. Woobat
18. Mudbray
19. Dewpider
20. Tyrunt
21. Magnemite
22. Natu
23. Spritzee
24. Vulpix
25. Archen

Fille
1. Mienfoo
2. Vullaby
3. Scraggy
4. Diglett
5. Grookey
6. Woobat
7. Koffing
8. Natu
9. Pawniard
10. Onix
11. Foongus
12. Abra
13. Staryu
14. Ferroseed
15. Tyrunt
16. Porygon
17. Dewpider
18. Mareanie
19. Mudbray
20. Timburr

gray
1. Mienfoo
2. Vullaby
3. Diglett
4. Porygon
5. Pawniard
6. Grookey
7. Ferroseed
8. Spritzee
9. Scraggy
10. Mareanie
11. Staryu
12. Abra
13. Koffing
14. Vulpix
15. Foongus
16. Mudbray
17. Onix
18. Magnemite
19. Timburr
20. Tyrunt

Hys
1. Vullaby
2. Mienfoo
3. Grookey
4. Scraggy
5. Onix
6. Woobat
7. Diglett
8. Pawniard
9. Ferroseed
10. Dewpider
11. Foongus
12. Mareanie
13. Porygon
14. Koffing
15. Trapinch
16. Timburr
17. Vulpix
18. Abra
19. Staryu
20. Tyrunt

Jox
1. Vullaby
2. Timburr
3. Diglett
4. Grookie
5. Mienfoo
6. Pawniard
7. Koffing
8. Onix
9. Porygon
10. Abra
11. Ferroseed
12. Staryu
13. Magnemite
14. Mudbray
15. Mareanie
16. Scraggy
17. Trapinch
18. Vulpix
19. Foongus
20. Woobat

Jr
1. Vullaby
2. Mienfoo
3. Grookey
4. Scraggy
5. Diglett
6. Koffing
7. Ferroseed
8. Onix
9. Pawniard
10.Abra
11. Foongus
12. Dewpider
13. Porygon
14. Staryu
15. Mareanie
16. Mudbray
17. Timburr
18. Vulpix
19. Trapinch
20. Woobat

Kipkluif
1. Vullaby
2. Mienfoo
3. Staryu
4. Koffing
5. Grookey
6. Foongus
7. Porygon
8. Pawniard
9. Timburr
10. Onix
11. Vulpix
12. Scraggy
13. Ferroseed
14. Magnemite
15. Trapinch
16. Diglett
17. Abra
18. Woobat
19. Mareanie
20. Ponyta-Galar

KSG
1. Vullaby
2. Mienfoo
3. Grookey
4. Foongus
5. Pawniard
6. Ferroseed
7. Diglett
8. Porygon
9. Onix
10. Scraggy
11. Timburr
12. Koffing
13. Abra
14. Staryu
15. Trapinch
16. Mareanie
17. Magnemite
18. Dewpider
19. Mudbray
20. Natu

kythr
1. Vullaby
2. Mienfoo
3. Porygon
4. Ferroseed
5. Koffing
6. Timburr
7. Trapinch
8. Onix
9. Pawniard
10. Grookey
11. Diglett
12. Staryu
13. Abra
14. Magnemite
15. Scraggy
16. Mareanie
17. Ponyta-Galar
18. Mudbray
19. Foongus
20. Natu

laroxyl
1. Mienfoo
2. Vullaby
3. Grookey
4. Porygon
5. Scraggy
6. Pawniard
7. Diglett
8. Koffing
9. Foongus
10. Trapinch
11. Ferroseed
12. Staryu
13. Ponyta-Galar
14. Timburr
15. Onix
16. Mudbray
17. Natu
18. Dewpider
19. Woobat
20. Tyrunt

levi
1. Vullaby
2. Mienfoo
3. Foongus
4. Diglett
5. Timburr
6. Pawniard
7. Onix
8. Ferroseed
9. Grookey
10. Trapinch
11. Abra
12. Koffing
13. Dewpider
14. Mareanie
15. Porygon
16. Scraggy
17. Staryu
18. Vulpix
19. Spritzee
20. Woobat

lilburr
1. Vullaby
2. Mienfoo
3. Pawniard
4. Grookey
5. Diglett
6. Ferroseed
7. Scraggy
8. Onix
9. Mareanie
10. Porygon
11. Dewpider
12. Mudbray
13. Staryu
14. Ponyta-Galar
15. Koffing
16. Timburr
17. Foongus
18. Vulpix
19. Magnemite
20. Wingull

luthier
1. Vullaby
2. Mienfoo
3. Ferroseed
4. Diglett
5. Grookey
6. Mareanie
7. Onix
8. Timburr
9. Koffing
10. Staryu
11. Scraggy
12. Trapinch
13. Pawniard
14. Mudbray
15. Foongus
16. Dewpider
17. Vulpix
18. Woobat
19. Ponyta-Galar
20. Spritzee

McSim
1. Grookey
2. Vullaby
3. Woobat
4. Scraggy
5. Mienfoo
6. Vulpix
7. Diglett
8. Koffing
9. Dewpider
10. Pawniard
11. Foongus
12. Timburr
13. Mareanie
14. Ferroseed
15. Porygon
16. Trapinch
17. Onix
18 : Abra
19 : Onix
20 : Ponyta Galar

pamplona
1. Vullaby
2. Mienfoo
3. Grookey
4. Porygon
5. Onix
6. Pawniard
7. Ferroseed
8. Scraggy
9. Ponyta-Galar
10. Wynaut
11. Abra
12. Mudbray
13. Woobat
14. Vulpix
15. Foongus
16. Magby
17. Koffing
18. Diglett
19. Spritzee
20. Timburr

PyProd
1. Mienfoo
2. Grookey
3. Vullaby
4. Pawniard
5. Trapinch
6. Diglett
7. Foongus
8. Vulpix
9. Tyrunt
10. Mareanie
11. Koffing
12. Slowpoke
13. Staryu
14. Porygon
15. Timburr
16. Ferroseed
17. Onix
18. Archen
19. Scraggy
20. Magnemite

tazz
1. Vullaby
2. Onix
3. Ferroseed
4. Koffing
5. Pawniard
6. Scraggy
7. Timburr
8. Grookey
9. Mienfoo
10. Porygon
11. Foongus
12. Dewpider
13. Abra
14. Trapinch
15. Diglett
16. Magnemite
17. Mudbray
18. Mareanie
19. Vulpix
20. Staryu

Toadow
1. Vullaby
2. Grookey
3. Mienfoo
4. Diglett
5. Scraggy
6. Pawniard
7. Onix
8. Koffing
9. Porygon
10. Ferroseed
11. Foongus
12. Trapinch
13. Abra
14. Staryu
15. Timburr
16. Mareanie
17. Mudbray
18. Magnemite
19. Tyrunt
20. Vulpix
21. Woobat

Yubellia
1. Vullaby
2. Mienfoo
3. Diglett
4. Grookey
5. Onix
6. Pawniard
7. Scraggy
8. Mareanie
9. Ferroseed
10. Porygon
11. Staryu
12. Koffing
13. Dewpider
14. Wingull
15. Foongus
16. Mudbray
17. Magnemite
18. Spritzee
19. Timburr
20. Abra

Z Strats
1. Vullaby
2. Grookey
3. Mienfoo
4. Pawniard
5. Ferroseed
6. Porygon
7. Koffing
8. Scraggy
9. Diglett
10. Timburr
11. Dewpider
12. Onix
13. Foongus
14. Mudbray
15. Ponyta-Galar
16. Magnemite
17. Woobat
18. Vulpix
19. Trapinch
20. Natu

Abra - 10, 10, 11, 11, 12, 12, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 15, 15, 16, 17, 17, 18, 20, 20
Archen - 18, 19, 25
Dewpider - 9, 10, 11, 11, 12, 12, 13, 13, 16, 17, 17, 18, 18, 19, 19
Diglett - 3, 3, 3, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 5, 5, 5, 6, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 9, 9, 9, 10, 11, 11, 15, 16, 18
Ferroseed - 3, 3, 4, 5, 5, 6, 6, 7, 7, 7, 7, 8, 8, 9, 9, 9, 10, 11, 11, 11, 13, 13, 14, 14, 16
Foongus - 3, 4, 6, 7, 8, 8, 9, 10, 11, 11, 11, 11, 11, 11, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 17, 19, 19
Grookey - 1, 2, 2, 2, 2, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 4, 4, 5, 5, 5, 5, 6, 6, 8, 9, 10
Grookie - 4
Koffing - 4, 4, 5, 5, 6, 6, 6, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 8, 8, 8, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 12, 12, 13, 14, 15, 17
Magby - 16
Magnemite - 13, 14, 14, 14, 16, 16, 17, 17, 18, 18, 18, 19, 19, 19, 20, 21
Mareanie - 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 10, 10, 11, 12, 13, 13, 13, 14, 15, 15, 15, 16, 16, 16, 17, 18, 18, 19
Mienfoo - 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 3, 3, 5, 5, 5, 9
Mudbray - 12, 12, 14, 14, 14, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 17, 17, 18, 18, 18, 18, 19, 19, 19
Natu - 8, 16, 17, 20, 20, 20, 22
Onix - 2, 4, 4, 5, 5, 5, 5, 6, 7, 7, 7, 7, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 9, 10, 10, 12, 12, 15, 17, 17, 17
Pawniard - 3, 3, 3, 4, 4, 4, 5, 5, 5, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 7, 8, 8, 9, 9, 9, 10, 13
Ponyta - 19
Ponyta-Galar - 9, 13, 14, 15, 17, 19, 20, 20
Porygon - 3, 3, 4, 4, 4, 6, 7, 8, 8, 9, 9, 9, 9, 10, 10, 10, 10, 13, 13, 14, 14, 15, 15, 16, 16
Scraggy - 3, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 5, 5, 6, 7, 7, 8, 8, 8, 9, 9, 10, 11, 11, 12, 15, 15, 16, 16, 19
Slowpoke - 12
Spritzee - 8, 14, 18, 18, 19, 19, 20, 23
Staryu - 3, 10, 11, 11, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 14, 14, 14, 17, 19, 20
Timburr - 2, 5, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 10, 11, 12, 12, 13, 14, 14, 14, 14, 15, 15, 16, 16, 17, 19, 19, 20, 20
Trapinch - 5, 7, 10, 10, 11, 11, 12, 12, 14, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 16, 16, 17, 17, 18, 19, 19
Tyrunt - 9, 15, 17, 19, 20, 20, 20, 20
Vullaby - 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 3
Vulpix - 6, 8, 11, 14, 14, 17, 17, 17, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 19, 20, 20, 20, 24
Wingull - 14, 20
Woobat - 3, 6, 6, 9, 13, 16, 17, 17, 18, 18, 19, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 21
Wynaut - 10

Name - average ranking (number of inclusions)
1. Vullaby - 1.3 (26)
2. Mienfoo - 2.5 (26)
3. Grookey - 4.8 (25)
4. Pawniard - 6.3 (26)
5. Diglett - 7.4 (26)
6. Scraggy - 8.6 (26)
7. Onix - 8.6 (26)
8. Koffing - 8.8 (26)
9. Ferroseed - 9.1 (25)
10. Porygon - 10 (25)
11. Foongus - 11.6 (26)
12. Timburr - 12.4 (26)
13. Mareanie - 14 (23)
14. Staryu - 14.1 (22)
15. Trapinch - 15.2 (21)
16. Abra - 16 (19)
17. Dewpider - 17.2 (15)
18. Mudbray - 17.3 (20)
19. Woobat - 17.4 (17)
20. Vulpix - 17.8 (19)
21. Magnemite - 18.6 (16)
22. Ponyta-Galar - 19.4 (8)
23. Spritzee - 19.9 (8)
24. Tyrunt - 19.9 (8)
25. Natu - 20.1 (7)
26. Grookie - 20.3 (1)
27. Wynaut - 20.6 (1)
28. Wingull - 20.7 (2)
29. Slowpoke - 20.7 (1)
30. Magby - 20.8 (1)
31. Ponyta - 20.9 (1)
32. Archen - 21 (3)

Name - average ranking (number of inclusions)
1. Vullaby - 1.2 (26)
2. Mienfoo - 2.3 (26)
3. Grookey - 4.2 (25)
4. Pawniard - 6.1 (26)
5. Diglett - 7.2 (26)
6. Scraggy - 8.4 (26)
7. Onix - 8.5 (26)
8. Koffing - 8.6 (26)
9. Ferroseed - 8.9 (25)
10. Porygon - 9.8 (25)
11. Foongus - 11.6 (26)
12. Timburr - 12.5 (26)
13. Mareanie - 14 (23)
14. Staryu - 14.2 (22)
15. Trapinch - 15.3 (21)
16. Abra - 16 (19)
17. Dewpider - 17.3 (15)
18. Mudbray - 17.4 (20)
19. Woobat - 17.8 (17)
20. Vulpix - 18 (19)
21. Magnemite - 18.7 (16)
22. Ponyta-Galar - 19.8 (8)
23. Spritzee - 20.2 (8)
24. Tyrunt - 20.3 (8)
25. Natu - 20.5 (7)
26. Archen - 20.9 (3)
27. Grookie - 21 (1)
28. Wynaut - 21 (1)
29. Wingull - 21 (2)
30. Slowpoke - 21 (1)
31. Magby - 21 (1)
32. Ponyta - 21 (1)

Name - average ranking (number of inclusions)
1. Vullaby - 1.3 (26)
2. Mienfoo - 2.5 (26)
3. Pawniard - 6.3 (26)
4. Diglett - 7.4 (26)
5. Scraggy - 8.6 (26)
6. Onix - 8.6 (26)
7. Koffing - 8.8 (26)
8. Foongus - 11.6 (26)
9. Timburr - 12.4 (26)
10. Grookey - 4.8 (25)
11. Ferroseed - 9.1 (25)
12. Porygon - 10 (25)
13. Mareanie - 14 (23)
14. Staryu - 14.1 (22)
15. Trapinch - 15.2 (21)
16. Mudbray - 17.3 (20)
17. Abra - 16 (19)
18. Vulpix - 17.8 (19)
19. Woobat - 17.4 (17)
20. Magnemite - 18.6 (16)
21. Dewpider - 17.2 (15)
22. Ponyta-Galar - 19.4 (8)
23. Spritzee - 19.9 (8)
24. Tyrunt - 19.9 (8)
25. Natu - 20.1 (7)
26. Archen - 21 (3)
27. Wingull - 20.7 (2)
28. Grookie - 20.3 (1)
29. Wynaut - 20.6 (1)
30. Slowpoke - 20.7 (1)
31. Magby - 20.8 (1)
32. Ponyta - 20.9 (1)


Some fun facts:

- 10 Pokemon were included on every single list. This is a lot more than the other times this was done: the SM list only had Vullaby and Mienfoo as universal inclusions, while the XY lists only had Mienfoo and Pawniard as universal inclusions.
- 29 Pokemon were included in total, making these lists less diverse than previous lists - even the SM list, which only asked for a top 15.
- Vullaby was ranked first in 19 lists and second on another five, leaving only one list where it wasn't in the top 2 (it was third). On five of those six lists, Mienfoo was ranked first instead.

e: added pamplona's ranking, edited jox's ranking
 
Last edited:

Corporal Levi

ninjadog of the decade
is a Site Content Manageris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Team Rater Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnus
Moderator
Following up on the above:
- Sticky Web will be banned from SM LC.
- Sand Veil will be banned from BW LC.
- Swagger will be banned from DPP LC.
The Immortal

Of the 43 council members, 5 users abstained, leaving 38 voters. 23 pro-ban votes were required to reach a supermajority.
Of the following 29 votes, 23 were pro-ban and 6 were anti-ban.


leviban
shrug ban
lilyacban
ninjado not ban
luthierban
wabaneban
bbbban
camdenban
mzdo not ban
londonban
kingler ban
king leo vban
dcaeban
brewfasaban
frisoevado not ban
burntzebraban
eternallyban
plasban
xiriban
serene gracedo not ban
starmasterban
joxban
htban
boulicrokban
ramweavsban
heysupdo not ban
xizaaaban
wailban
mikaavdo not ban

Of the 25 voters, 15 were required to reach a supermajority. Of the following 19 votes, 17 were pro-ban and 2 were anti-ban.


leviban
lilburrban
kdotban
ghostban
raj.shootban
joltageban
iss ban
starban
hurtadooban
filleban
mcsimban
fran17ban
laroxylban
kipkluifban
brewfasaban
thiago nunesban
fiendban
daunt vsdo not ban
dcaedo not ban

Of the 19 voters, 12 were required to reach a supermajority. Of the following 17 votes, 16 were pro-ban and 1 was anti-ban.


leviban
obiiban
heysup ban
raj 00 ban
starban
melban
imanaltban
nailsban
dcaeban
cmdogeban
fantosban
hsowaban
bkcban
esequedo not ban
plasban
hodorban

Thanks to everyone who participated!
 
what about joltik, good speed and sp. attack and able to use charge beam and then thunder with compound eyes to destroy non bulky flying types.

also with thunder wave to slow opponents with scarf. also with energy ball to destroy water ground types and sucker punch. (not good but it's a priority move) also with a darn good bug move to be a threat. beware of the god joltik.
 

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 2, Guests: 1)

Top