Social LGBTQIA+

Crux

Banned deucer.
Let’s talk about Pokepride. This isn’t a callout or directed at anyone in particular, but I will be taking some examples to make the point. If you think this is about you, don’t take it personally – I think this is a good opportunity for all of us to think and reflect on what this space should be. Some initial thoughts:
  • I am posting this here because it has been made abundantly clear that discussion about practices, or anything really, is not allowed in the server. When raised in the chat, or with the moderation team, any criticism is either ignored or summarily shut down with absolutely no self-reflection. We’ve also been directed to take discussion that can’t happen there, here. Voila.
  • Some of you will probably see this as the continued ramblings and insurrection of one or two disgruntled homosexuals, and be tempted to dismiss this on that basis. I would note, however, that the server has an active userbase of about 15, and about half of them share these concerns but have thought it fruitless to bring it up to the moderation team, as they (rightly) believe they will be either ignored or kicked.
  • It is important to note that the server is at least quasi-official. It is advertised in the only LGBT discussion thread on the forum, is relatively entrenched, and advertises itself as such in other discords and on PS. This makes it open to critique, and thoughts like “why not go elsewhere” are misguided at best. At the very least, your representations should somewhat align with what you are providing.
  • It’s also clear some of you don’t like me. That’s fine, engage with this in good faith regardless. I think very little of this should have anything to do with me, or any other individual in particular, and I’d hate for this opportunity to improve the server to simply collapse into pointless mudslinging.
How is the server currently failing?
  • There is a complete lack of discussion. Queer spaces have historically been, and remain, one of the only places LGBT people from different backgrounds can come together to learn from one another, facilitate a better understanding of our shared identities, histories, and politics, as well as to organise and mobilise with one another. I can appreciate a desire to also cater to people who do not want that, and would rather socialise, vent, or just want solidarity. But these two cannot and should not be separated. For instance, a lack of understanding of the relative power dynamics between users in a server that also caters to allies has caused many users of the server to feel alienated and discriminated against by those users. When those issues are brought up with server staff, they have been dismissed. The saturation of the Discord by allies displaces the experiences of LGBT people, especially those that the server is apparently setting itself out to protect. Trite responses and often directly harmful advice are the most common response to venting. If you want another 1v1 Discord, make one and have fun there. But don’t pretend you’re doing something different. Another example is its attempt to be apolitical, but to apply this in oddly asymmetric ways. Supporting the US military, an actively homophobic and transphobic institution responsible for the deaths of LGBT people and PoC around the world and an instrument of neo-imperialism? Fine. Supporting Israel, responsible for much the same? Fine. Promoting and protecting users who have spread transphobic nonsense about bone density defining gender? Also, fine. But if those things are challenged or even vaguely radical views are put forward, they are shut down immediately. This seems perverse.
  • This lack of discussion also hurts LGBT people in general. A significant part of LGBT spaces is helping people uncover and understand their identities, particularly when they lack knowledge on the subject. How can you fully understand your identity as a trans woman without an understanding of gender? You can’t. How can you know what it is to be a gay man without understanding its constituent identity? It is not even a coherent concept. It is discussions like these, however, that are routinely shut down for fear of upsetting people, or the balance of the server. The mechanism for this is typically claiming that whatever channel the discussion was being had in was not the appropriate forum for that discussion, in spite of the fact that the discussion had grown out of that channel organically. A few of us suggested that a discussion channel might be a reasonable compromise. In fact, I cannot see a single reason not to implement such a policy. It was denied.
  • There is a complete lack of accountability. Rules are applied asymmetrically. Another user posted a piece of rather explicit gay literature. He was banned. This, by itself, is probably defensible. But then myself and another user enquired after this, making more or less the same points. I was banned, they were not. Today, when an admin posted even more explicit references to pornography, and was rightly questioned about it, the questioner was simply told to stop asking. The proposed approach is to instead message an admin. But when users who do so are dismissed in PM, then mocked and derided in separate mod chats, how can they really approach this? Or alternatively, when enquiring about a decision, they are directly lied to by the administrator they asked. If you want to ban all NSFW content, then do so, but apply it appropriately and to yourselves. It is deeply unclear to me why an apparently progressive administration team would not have any kind of public accountability mechanisms, and seek to actively shut down the few that exist. Pokepride is an interesting balance – it seeks to maintain a LGBT space where minors and adults discuss things, where both are usually coming from very vulnerable backgrounds, often with histories of abuse. I think it is very dangerous to allow this to continue, for rather obvious reasons.
I don’t think you need very far between the lines to work out how to fix the problems here. Why you have been so reticent continues to baffle me.
 
my fave experience in pokepride was when i responded to a person who ID'd as straight (and often leveraged his allyship for attn [he is apparently now 'bicurious']) posting this meme and i was told to not attack other users when i critiqued it! :/



neutrality grants you.. that. as acceptable. in a queer chat. just a joke though!

as crux detailed, pokepride attempts to operate as a safe space geared toward allowing young queers to blossom without providing the necessary foundations to do so. moderation emphasizes 'niceness' toward others, ignoring critical power dynamics that come into play in queer spaces. i agree that many young users need a space to explore their identities, grow as people, and discuss with others to cement themselves as valid in a space--often, their first time doing so. but we cannot do that effectively without open discussion regarding oppressive behaviors. additionally, the moderation team's incredibly incongruent methods of dishing out punishment, leveraging of the rules at their own convenience, and inability to assess discussion makes the point of the server rather moot. for some reason, many of the mods see any disagreement destructively as opposed to constructively, and perhaps that stems from their own insecurities and biases surrounding their beliefs and politics. you can't have a queer server without any sort of civic discourse. our identities are politicized, after all.

and this isn't to say that i believe a simple lgbt disc should be a space of pure radical queer theory. i am not suggesting we force users to read butler or they're banned. like, i am a person who shoots the shit! and holds space for people going through it. like, i wish i had a pokepride when i was in my teens. i would like to be there for peeps who are going through it. but the way the server is run is absolutely abhorrent.

that being said, if you want to participate in a friendly queer disc with folks who possess an actual sense of humor, grounding in sociopolitical and queer theory, and cynicism toward allies and liberals, hmu and i'll send you a link. :)
 
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Asheviere as one of the most disagreeable moderators, i am asking for a response and discussion. you have viewed this thread repeatedly already.

the fact that 3 of the most outspoken queers on this website (me, myzo, crux) find your handling of the server to be hamfisted speaks legions to your effectiveness as a moderator.

thanks!
 
I am gonna say something rn.
I have never played the "fall in love" deck of cards(Metaphor)and I think super different(like,so lit)and Im very passionate whether in a game or IRL, if I see someone doubting themselves/crying, I give them hugs and things like that.
Just saying, I also can get very angry, too, so I like to see friendly communities.


Wow nice to see ppl like my personality
 
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even as a joke, talk like this in a "a safe space geared toward allowing young queers to blossom" seems very troubling given the track record of certain other notorious individuals associated with the Smogon community
I think that it's pretty obvious that they're joking. Context is sometimes hard to read over a screenshot in which you cut it out not showing the entire conversation. Just a thought...
 

Attachments

tcr

sage of six tabs
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this thread is a trainwreck

anyway

im nominating twice's what is love as a certified Queer Song, it bops and slaps
I think this is the exact kind of post that people like crux or starry blanket are posting about. any time any actual discussion or self reflection is brought up someone (usually a core cabal of predictable users) responds with some quip along the veins of yikes sweetie and things move on

I also think the above discord screen is not only really cringy and a pretty poor excuse for a joke it also demonstrates an absurd level of professionalism expected from a community leader and discord server owner. regardless if it was a joke or not its not appropriate for a community leader and ps admin to ever post about having a 13yo gf; especially considering the history smogon has of harboring actual grooming pedophiles in its leadership and how the server (idk for sure but i can make an educated guess) is hosting a median age of probably 15-16
 
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p0ip0le

it's a billion lions
I think this is the exact kind of post that people like
crux or starry blanket are posting about. any time any actual discussion or self reflection is brought up someone (usually a core cabal of predictable users) responds with some quip along the veins of yikes sweetie and things move on

[other stuff that i know less about]
literally nothing good comes from arguing in the thread, its just... arguing over irrelevant points, people get angry fast, out of context screenshots, personal attacks etc etc etc etc. it serves no purpose except to call people out and the whole thing couldve been resolved as a discord gc/smog conversation/etc
 

talah

from the river to the sea
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Hey, not going to comment on the rest of the argument, but i'd like to point out the start of the post where you said
"my fave experience in pokepride was when i responded to a person who ID'd as straight (and often leveraged his allyship for attn [he is apparently now 'bicurious']) posting this meme and i was told to not attack other users when i critiqued it! :/"

I dont know if you notice this when typing it out, but you're actively doubting someone's sexuality by saying " [he is apparently now 'bicurious']) "
I think its disingenuous to say that you want to improve pokepride while doubting someone's sexuality.
bicurious isn't a sexuality. it's a label supposed to convey that someone is questioning their sexuality, usually from a starting point of identifying as straight to thinking one can be bi, as that's the large majority of people who find that label fitting. it's also used a lot by people who really want to fit in with LGBT circles for whatever reason but aren't actually LGBT; not saying that's necessarily the user dice is talking about but it's a very real thing, and i don't see why a gay dude can't be at least cautious with someone that posted something like that while using the 'bicurious' label.
 
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my fave experience in pokepride was when i responded to a person who ID'd as straight (and often leveraged his allyship for attn [he is apparently now 'bicurious']) posting this meme and i was told to not attack other users when i critiqued it! :/
Heyo! That's me you're referring to, and I'd like to clear some things up. First of all, you've provoked some great discussion in PokePride. Just about everyone now agrees that "questioning" is a better term than "bicurious" for various reasons. I'd also like to note that I've been questioning my sexuality pretty heavily since early fall, but being in a heterosexual relationship for much of the time until now hadn't given me much time to reflect as much as I'd like to have had. I've expressed my questioning in sexuality with users like Nalei since December as well. I assure you that this is not a new thing I manufactured in order to "gain attention" or somehow shirk responsibility for what can be seen as an offensive meme. I originally joined PokePride to both make new friends and ask questions about what to call what I feel, and I'm devastated to have failed in the former in this instance.



neutrality grants you.. that. as acceptable. in a queer chat. just a joke though!
In reference to this: I found this in r/copypasta; I did not create it. I had meant it as a meme in the channel that it was posted in: #memes. It was clearly interpreted differently than I thought it would be, and I'd like to apologize for that. I was under the impression that it was rather unoffensive and blatantly ironic, which seems to be pretty standard in terms of memes. I absolutely did not mean to offend anyone and I'm sorry if my intent was different than the effect. I will certainly be more careful with what I post in the future.

I was also fairly defensive after being confronted for that meme, not because I cared to "defend my innocence" in what I posted (Again, my goal was never to offend you or any others and I apologize if I did), but because of how I was approached.

zoot.PNG

I'm sure that you can recognize that this is fairly confrontational and not necessarily a great strategy in promoting intelligent discourse. I don't mind being called out for bad taste, especially when I hadn't recognize how offensive such a meme could be, but I do think that you may have been better with more effective results from the moderation team if a slightly different method of approach was utilized. You told me that my shitty meme was deliberately intended to be, which it was not. I take my position as an ally (despite questioning my sexuality, I'm currently just an ally) very seriously, and I don't mean to offend the LGBT+ community. I also refuse to be selfish enough to deny my wrongdoing behind my interpretation of my own innocence. In response to your callout, I apologize for being defensive when confronted. I was incredibly concerned that anyone would think that I was being homophobic, however unintentionally, because of the content of the copypasta.

I would like to hypothesize as to why discourse on this meme was never able to happen. The moderation team in PokePride was more immediately concerned about the public callout assuming that I was deliberately being homophobic or insensitive, which I was absolutely not. I apologize for any impression I could give otherwise, but I solely had meant to post something I had recently found on reddit without understanding how it could offend. I think that a discussion about the perceived offensiveness of such a copypasta could've certainly come to fruition if it had be approached in a slightly different tone, perhaps one that takes into account that the user never meant to offend. I also think that your posts here today have helped promote discussion in PokePride about being more open to debates.

I hope that I helped clear some things up with you dice. I apologize for my wrongdoings and hope that I have given everyone here another perspective.
 

Cheryl.

Celesteela is Life
I’m sorry but did you guys really think making a Discord server full of people within Smogon about this topic (as much as us LGBTQ+ folk need to stick together) would be a great idea? Of course it would come crashing down with bad users, moderation, and the circlejerking that comes in servers like those. I’m not saying an idea like that will never work ever but it’s really not that difficult to see why an idea like PokePride doesn’t work in practice.
 

shade

be sharp, say nowt
is a Senior Staff Member Alumnusis a Smogon Discord Contributor Alumnus
just a note on behalf of cong moderation:

owing to the fact that the server in question is advertised in the OP of this thread, i fully support crux (and by extension dice) in their right to have a forum to scrutinise the administration of the server. it would be extremely dangerous to suppress potential dissent in these situations in light of what has previously happened on this website and its associated websites, assuming said dissent is genuine of nature. the server being linked in the OP, and on showdown, means there must be some accountability for actions within. so, with regards to mismanagement in that server, i am perfectly happy with those discussions taking place itt. i mean genuine discussion though, this is not a green-light to start throwing shit at each other, but i think crux's post in particular showcases how you can air a grievance in a genuine manner.

i steer clear of this mostly, as i do not like telling people how to run their safe spaces, but i am also not comfortable with advertising a server that is potentially questionable in my forum. i have no power on ps, so i cannot change anything there, but if the general community view is that this server is not fit for purpose then its advertisement in the OP will be removed. discussions like this are a good way to gauge the community opinion. if anyone more involved in the smogon lgbt community wants to get in touch and offer their thoughts, that would be welcomed.

nevertheless, i cannot stress this enough, if accusations go beyond that of mismanagement then i would implore those with said accusations to seek out site leadership immediately.
 

Zodiax

not this
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Hi! Time to share my story I guess...

For those who don't know me, Hi My names Zodiax (or Graham, I don't mind what you call me) and I'm a Bisexual male living in England.

I knew from a young age that I wasn't straight. Probably when I was 11. I was mainly attracted to guys (just remember seeing attractive males over the media and having a different feeling towards them). However at that time when I was in a rough high school I kept that side of myself quiet.

I was a quiet person when I was younger, mainly because I knew that coming out wasn't going to be easy for me and was holding me back. Sadly, I didn't choose come out to my family. A person that I hooked up with when I was 18 did it in revenge. It was a guy that I met once, and it was okay, we hooked up and had a drink afterwards, I said I would text him the day after, told him that even though it was a fun night that I don't think now is right for me to get into something serious as I wasn't out to my family. He texted back saying "Totally get it, have a good one". To then a few days later my sister calling me with a shocked expression on her tone of voice over the phone saying "Graham are you gay? I just got a message from this guy with screenshots from your number" and that's when I came out as Bi to my sister.

My sister and I talked it over and I said that I would come out to my dad in my own time (sadly my mother passed away when I was 13 but I'm sure she knows in spirit). So fast forward to when I was 20. I had a boyfriend, still not out to my dad. My ex was a DJ and he would have gigs up in London on a Saturday night and occasionally I would go up with him to support him and have drinks along side with him. One Saturday I was working but I said to him to text me when he got there, he did, I replied saying have a good night and text me tomorrow morning. I didn't hear from him, and got worried. I went into work on Monday to find the police there asking for me. My ex was declared missing. Obviously I was distraught, and after 5 days of him being declared missing he was found, quiet, wouldn't speak to anyone. He was found on the Friday morning. I get a call from one of his friends on the Saturday, telling me "Why the fuck is [ex boyfriends name] going back up to London to gig" and at that point my ex hasn't messaged me once in a full week. In my mind, I went a bit psycho and I went up to London. at 11pm, to go to his club. But wait, I have no money, its late and how am I supposed to get to the station? At that point I needed help from my dad, and that's when I had to come out to him and explained everything. His response was "I don't care what sexuality you are, what I care about is that you're going to get the last train to sort this out." and honestly, I never expected that reaction from him. It made me feel so happy and privileged to have a family like mine. (long story short, wasn't my boyfriend for long, as when I got there I saw him making out with one of the club managers outside, both of their expressions when they saw me were hilarious).

Fast forward to now... 24 years old, still thankful for the many friendships I have made through the LGBTQ+ community, not just in real life, but mainly on this forum, and on PS, where my friendships are still growing, hearing new stories from my old friends and even people that I just knew of and honestly being so proud of them for sharing their experiences. For those who have also supported me on here for being my true self, thank you.

What I will say is that I'm a firm believer of everything happens for a reason, so if you are struggling to come out and need time, take it. If you need to speak to someone, I'm sure one of the amazing people from this community are more than happy to listen (I certainly am), and enjoy life. Thanks for reading :)
 
I should share some interesting parts of my life too.

Im just a 9 1/2 year old boy going through life and Ive had experiences and learned many things.

Ive experienced how it feels to get something you really ever wanted

Ive experienced how it feels to get scammed

Ive experienced my inner passion(IRL I keep a straight face but y'know, Im passionate)

Ive experienced anger,sadness,happiness,embarrasment,annoyance and boredom

Im also hesitant to tell people I have a stuffed bunny plush so I dont get embarrassed.

Im just a 9 year old growing through life and Im surprisingly smart :facepalm:

I wanted to share my story so yall would know facts about me and know how I live.

Regardless of my passion, I can get set off easily by things you would/wouldnt understand.

Ive never fallen in love all my literal life.

There is my story, hope you understand.
 

Chloe

is a Community Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Dedicated Tournament Hostis a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
NUPL Champion
Thank you shade for posting that, as I feel more comfortable coming forward with what I have to say. I was a long time moderator of the Pokepride server, from its inception up until a couple months ago, and have been a member of the server since as well, so I feel as if I can comment fairly on the state of the moderation of the server. The server was in a good state for months actually, I would argue that the initial leadership of Pokepride, albeit inactive, was apt at handling an LGBTQ+ server. Subsequent promotions to some questionable users has made the server unusable for the most part. Pokepride is now a liberal circlejerk masquerading as an LGBTQ+ safe space.

Now what do I mean by that? Well, there are a myriad of reasons Pokepride went downhill, and I'd like to cover them today, if you'll allow me. For starters, I'd like to state that I don't believe this server should be affiliated with Smogon in any way, whether it be linked in the OP as it currently is, or even advertised as the "smogon gay chat". I am friends with a few members of the moderation team, so while I'll be walking on eggshells by posting criticism, it's necessary for you to gain an understanding of what's going on.

The server used to have a defined purpose. We had a place where anyone queer-identifying on Smogon could come and join and interact within a safe environment. That being said, debate was still allowed and not frowned upon. We wouldn't shut down debate if it was kept civil, and I and the other moderators at the time found this to be a good balance. It wasn't perfect, for sure, but it was the best we could do in a server where we were attempting to abide by Smogon's rules and also give anyone LGBTQ+ a place to feel safe and comfortable.

A few months into the server's existence, a user called Asheviere joined. This user is notably a Pokemon Showdown administrator, who is known for being very outspoken, who engaged in anti-queer spaces for years prior to joining the server, and somewhat recently has come to the realisation that she is trans. As soon as Asheviere became an active presence within the discord, the server's quality rapidly went downhill. The first notable thing I recall from Asheviere is her hounding one of our at the time moderators, one of the friendliest, kindest people you've even met, dibs, for being somewhat inactive until he felt pressured to quit.

With this came a ton of changes within the server, I believe after that we promoted Quote, who did a good job at moderating for the most part. There were some times where they would be overbearing and step on people's toes but generally they were fine, and active, so there were no real issues there. We then promoted Robyn, who was a really good candidate, who was kind to the regular users and wasn't overbearing in moderation whatsoever. Another one of our early moderators stepped down soon after, so Quote suggested we promote Asheviere to moderator. I was very strongly against this, I'd known of Asheviere's history and her behaviour in the chat was egregious at times. Despite this, I was the only one to stand against this promotion (other than another one of the moderators who hadn't logged on in the ten hours they were discussing this).

Once Asheviere became a moderator, the server's quality declined significantly. Issues that had never even arisen before were starting to become common. Pokepride regulars were leaving left and right, all stating to me in PMs how much Asheviere ruined the server for them. It wasn't long before Asheviere felt like the leader of the group due to the decisions being made. These decisions made and pushed by Asheviere, are in my humble opinion, the main reason for Pokepride's demise.

So what exactly did Asheviere do that was so negative? Why were people leaving? Well, there were a few notable factors in which I'd like to elaborate on today. I'd like to start by saying I don't doubt Asheviere's ability as a Pokemon Showdown administrator, or her place as a developer, nor is this a personal attack against her. This is solely based on my and other's interactions with her and others within the Pokepride server, and the ability of the moderators to manage a queer safespace such as this.

Firstly, any important debate to have about queer issues was essentially outlawed within Pokepride. As Crux earlier stated, discussions about the negative effect of the military, about Israel's human rights records towards LGBTQ+ people, about how the police force are not our allies; any discussion that actually challenges the liberal status quo the server has set is told to "take that to cong" and immediately stopped. This is a problem for multiple reasons, it for one is instilling a political ideology among the people within the server, but it is also solely politically driven moderating in a queer-space, where the political bias is against the LGBTQ+'s community's best interests. It isn't difficult to see why Asheviere, a 4chan frequenter, is halting any leftist discussion. On a somewhat unrelated note, it's also somewhat disheartening that when people do come to cong they're regularly shut down by people attempting to halt any discussion.

Secondly, Asheviere's behaviour and demeanor are unsuitable for moderation here. She's increasingly antagonistic, views herself as above everyone else within the server, regularly breaks the rules she imposed herself and additionally shittalks regulars frequently in staff channels. Back in the early stages of Pokepride, the moderation team and regular users actually got on well, we'd only really need to ban outright trolls and occasionally bad users but nowhere near to the extent we have now. Anyone who dissents against the liberal status quo, against the poor moderation is outright banned without warning, yet users who are considerably toxic on a regular basis and post stuff that isn't suitable for a safespace by any means are fine, because as long as they're not talking about why Israel is bad or why cops suck, there's no reason to remove them from the environment. This has created a very skewed community.

Lastly, Asheviere's behaviour has impacted how other members of the moderation team, notably Robyn and newcomer Nalei view the server. I'm not going to dwell on these users for too long, as I do consider them my friends but generally they enforce these aforementioned biases, they have no room to speak up to Asheviere, because of how toxic her responses may be. The server's moderation has become very strict, on a server that was initially enjoyable, and it feels like a chore to talk in there anymore. Asheviere attempts to treat this server as if it's PS at times, and like it's 4chan at others. The remainder of the moderation team doesn't bother questioning it.

These reasons alone are not all the wrongdoings of the Pokepride server, but they are what I've chosen to elaborate on today. So that this isn't just a one-sided post, allow me to explain what I love about Pokepride. I love that people have a place to be themselves (for the most part, see above paragraphs) and be able to talk to other queer-identifying people, I love that people feel free to express themselves in whatever way they seem fitting, feel comfortable enough to come out here instead of being closeted and surpressing their feelings. I've met a lot of nice friendly people I would have never met otherwise if not for this server. And for Asheviere, I don't fully believe she intends to do the wrong thing, but her complacency and poor ability as moderator of a safe space should be put into question.

In summary, the Pokepride server was initially a good idea and executed well, but after months of toxic moderation the server's quality has rapidly decreased to the point where any political discussion that is disagreed with by the moderators is instantly shut down in bad faith. I implore the cong moderators to at least remove the link to the server, until the issues Crux, dice and I have mentioned are acknowledged and fixed. Thank you.
 

yogi

I did not succumb...
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Hello people. While a lot of you may not know me and my activity has been overall extremely low due to irl obligations, I'd like to say that I'm open to any questions and/or suggestions being pmd to me on discord so that we can try to improve :)
 

Crux

Banned deucer.
I understand that some of the admin team of Pokepride who have been critiqued in this thread have stood down. Is there any chance we could get some insight into the proposed changes the remaining admin team are intending to make?
 

yogi

I did not succumb...
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I understand that some of the admin team of Pokepride who have been critiqued in this thread have stood down. Is there any chance we could get some insight into the proposed changes the remaining admin team are intending to make?
We're talking about it over the next few days and I'll be making a post after we've decided on stuff
 

Eve

taking a break
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I sure hope that includes the removal or demotion of people in a position of authority « joking » about having a relationship with underaged teens.
They left on their own accord earlier today, so that isn't something that needs to be worried about anymore (other than future prevention of similar situations of course).
 

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