Calyrex is much stronger than Zacian-C with Life Orb, not even counting specs which can outspeed OHKO 80% of the tier.
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Metagame np: SS Ubers Stage 3 - Interlude
- Thread starter Nayrz
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You can go to the teambuilding compendium thread to post these checks, though all of them are revenge killers here, and not particularly good outside of checking Calyrex-Shadow (minus Marshadow and Yveltal of course. Tyranitar also prefers Foul Play, Stealth Rock, Rest, and Thunder Wave).
I still half-agree.
Calyrex-Shadow is largely better thanks to number of factors like items, BP of moves, ability to hit both sides with Psyshock, a Special Moxie with an added bonus Unnerve, and of course outspeeding Zacian-C.
However, despite that, Calyrex-Shadow still manages to have better true counters than Zacian-C. The only true counter to Zacian-C is still Quagsire, something that hardly has any use outside of this specific role (as it needs to Dynamax to stop Marshadow and Quagsire). Meanwhile Calyrex-Shadow has to deal with Tyranitar and Yveltal. The former being the classic stop to Eternatus and provides Sand for your Excadrills, and the Latter is a definitive S rank Pokemon even without Calyrex-Shadow.
I also would like to draw attention to Kyogre, the scarf variant, that is an excellent check to both Zacian-C and Calyrex-Shadow. Both Water Spout and Origin Pulse not only cleanly KO them, but very little is going to want to switch into a Kyogre, with some exceptions. It also has incredible bulk for tanking Astral Barrage and Behemoth Blade. It's notable as a check for both since it can forces them out, removing their stat increases.
I wanted to make this post to discuss both Dynamax and the problem of Calyrex Shadow Rider which a lot of people are bringing up. I'm gonna first respond to the most recent post trying to bring down Calyrex, being this one. I do think it's very overwhelming, but I'll get to that later. A lot of the points brought up in this post are either wrong, or won't work in practice.
Pheormosa works sure, it's an underwhelming mon though, and the set you listed shows some inexperience with the mon also, because basically every Phero used should have ice beam (edit: or triple axel which might also be a thing I can't say I've used) because it hits Zygarde, which just walls the set completely, as well as stuff like Ho-oh which naturally just beats it no matter the set. Also, it doesn't even KO a dynamaxed Calyrex.
252 Atk Life Orb Pheromosa Throat Chop vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Dynamax Calyrex-S: 567-671 (83.1 - 98.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Calyrex isn't in the calc yet, so this is just using Lunala without shadow shield activated and Calyrex's 100/80 Phys.def stats.
Scarf Urshifu can work, but Calyrex also runs scarf sometimes as a way to revenge other Calyrex, Scarf Ogre, tie with Ditto, etc. Plus if they get behind a sub it loses a lot if not all it's health depending on if they run draining kiss. This is another case where a revenge killer like Marshadow isn't something to be used as the sole way to beat the mon.
Yveltal is yveltal yeah, but even that isn't a 100% counter. Sub sets can avoid Sucker Punch and win a lot of 50/50's, or the more useful set for this imo is the trick specs set. Removing Yveltal's boots if it's defensive makes it a lot easier to chip down, and just playing a slow game against it lets Calyrex win a surprising amount of times for what's supposed to be the best check to it.
Ttar is also one of the better checks, but it lacks reliable recovery. If it just continuously takes Draining Kisses on the switch especially with hazards up, this thing either is forced to rest which gives Calyrex plenty of free turns, or just dies long term. Trick also cripples this, because a locked in ttar as a defensive check is even worse off than Yveltal with rest as the recovery.
lol Zarude.
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Calyrex-S Max Starfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Zarude: 439-517 (106 - 124.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 Atk Zarude Darkest Lariat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Dynamax Calyrex-S: 516-612 (75.6 - 89.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
It can't beat Calyrex, and if you're forced to Dynamax such a bad mon, it's just a wasted team slot. This thing loses to so many of the most common mons in the tier, Zacian-C, Ho-oh, Yveltal, set up Zygarde, Palkia, Dialga, Eternatus, Xerneas, even Necrozma Dusk mane can be a pivot into this set because it's super effective damage is insanely weaks, and others being most of the rest of the tier.
0 Atk Zarude Darkest Lariat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Prism Armor Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 99-117 (24.8 - 29.3%) -- guaranteed 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 Atk Necrozma-Dusk-Mane Sunsteel Strike vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Zarude: 153-181 (36.9 - 43.7%) -- 99.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
There's a lot of things here that will only work sometimes in a vacuum or a straight up 1v1 scenario, but realistically I'm only counting on Yveltal here as a way to reliably beat Calyrex especially while maintaining usefulness outside of attempting to check it.
Now, onto Dynamax. It's no surprise really to anyone it's being tested, and I haven't seen many people argue it's healthy for the tier. For 3 turns, letting a Pokemon double it's hp while increasing it's move power and having said increased power moves set up stat buffs, weather, terrain, or lower the opposing stats with it's secondary effects (not counting G-max moves which have their own unique effects) is insane, and just shouldn't be in the tier. It enables certain Pokemon to be way too strong, and snowballs happen extremely quickly with Pokemon such as Zygarde, Xerneas, Necrozma, Calyrex, Yveltal, insert strong set up mon here, etc. Checking these Pokemon defensively becomes very unreliable and forces a lot of situations that just force games to end because a Pokemon can just win by setting itself up while attacking with ~130 bp moves. Dynamax has proven to be insanely centralizing and turning certain Pokemon into broken ones that are very hard to wall. Pre Dlc 2 it was already a little clear that certain Pokemon off the dynamax restriction list (mostly Kyurem-B and Excadrill imo) were proving to be extremely restricting on building, and could use dynamax to just break through their checks and win games with minimal effort due to the power increase of Dynamax. With even more legends coming and all the restrictions lifted, I think it 100% has to go.
Looking a bit ahead of that on Calyrex which people have already started to bring up as possibly too overwhelming, and I do think it has potential to be, but I'm waiting on the Dynamax test results as well as a bit of meta development to form a concrete opinion. Right now I think it's the best mon in the tier, forcing Yveltal on almost every team trying to succeed, and even then being able to steal games away. Ditto usage from what I've seen has jumped to check it, and a lot more sets like Scarf /Sneak Marshadow and oppsing Scarf Calyrex have seen a bit of use to revenge it so it doesn't steamroll teams with it's ridiculous double ability giving it both Unnerve and a special version of Moxie. Waiting on this one to see, I think specs will take over the meta as the set to use personally if Dynamax is banned, because it can no longer set it's own psychic terrain or have the super strong fairy hit, but nothing can Dynamax against it as well, so tricking Yveltal can just lead to slow wins possibly even easier.
Most of these listed are very mediocre checks, the best one and only one I'd consider using on most standard teams being yveltal. Marshadow does have the ability to OHKO Calyrex with sneak or scarf attacks yes, but just throwing up revenge killers as a way to put down a mon's viability isn't the way to go. In most games, no one will realistically keep in a Calyrex against a Marshadow if it's still a valuable member of their team to that game. If you take the example of Zacain-C, saying stuff like scarf/sand drill, scarf darm-g, weather sweepers, and all relevant scarfers like Kyogre can revenge kill it, it seems a lot less threatening. The problem is people can just preserve it by going into a check to the revenge killer, and I can't say with confidence a team where the only way to beat Calyrex is Marshadow can reliably win against a well played Calyrex.
Pheormosa works sure, it's an underwhelming mon though, and the set you listed shows some inexperience with the mon also, because basically every Phero used should have ice beam (edit: or triple axel which might also be a thing I can't say I've used) because it hits Zygarde, which just walls the set completely, as well as stuff like Ho-oh which naturally just beats it no matter the set. Also, it doesn't even KO a dynamaxed Calyrex.
252 Atk Life Orb Pheromosa Throat Chop vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Dynamax Calyrex-S: 567-671 (83.1 - 98.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Calyrex isn't in the calc yet, so this is just using Lunala without shadow shield activated and Calyrex's 100/80 Phys.def stats.
Scarf Urshifu can work, but Calyrex also runs scarf sometimes as a way to revenge other Calyrex, Scarf Ogre, tie with Ditto, etc. Plus if they get behind a sub it loses a lot if not all it's health depending on if they run draining kiss. This is another case where a revenge killer like Marshadow isn't something to be used as the sole way to beat the mon.
Yveltal is yveltal yeah, but even that isn't a 100% counter. Sub sets can avoid Sucker Punch and win a lot of 50/50's, or the more useful set for this imo is the trick specs set. Removing Yveltal's boots if it's defensive makes it a lot easier to chip down, and just playing a slow game against it lets Calyrex win a surprising amount of times for what's supposed to be the best check to it.
Ttar is also one of the better checks, but it lacks reliable recovery. If it just continuously takes Draining Kisses on the switch especially with hazards up, this thing either is forced to rest which gives Calyrex plenty of free turns, or just dies long term. Trick also cripples this, because a locked in ttar as a defensive check is even worse off than Yveltal with rest as the recovery.
lol Zarude.
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Calyrex-S Max Starfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Zarude: 439-517 (106 - 124.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 Atk Zarude Darkest Lariat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Dynamax Calyrex-S: 516-612 (75.6 - 89.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
It can't beat Calyrex, and if you're forced to Dynamax such a bad mon, it's just a wasted team slot. This thing loses to so many of the most common mons in the tier, Zacian-C, Ho-oh, Yveltal, set up Zygarde, Palkia, Dialga, Eternatus, Xerneas, even Necrozma Dusk mane can be a pivot into this set because it's super effective damage is insanely weaks, and others being most of the rest of the tier.
0 Atk Zarude Darkest Lariat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Prism Armor Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 99-117 (24.8 - 29.3%) -- guaranteed 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 Atk Necrozma-Dusk-Mane Sunsteel Strike vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Zarude: 153-181 (36.9 - 43.7%) -- 99.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
There's a lot of things here that will only work sometimes in a vacuum or a straight up 1v1 scenario, but realistically I'm only counting on Yveltal here as a way to reliably beat Calyrex especially while maintaining usefulness outside of attempting to check it.
Looking a bit ahead of that on Calyrex which people have already started to bring up as possibly too overwhelming, and I do think it has potential to be, but I'm waiting on the Dynamax test results as well as a bit of meta development to form a concrete opinion. Right now I think it's the best mon in the tier, forcing Yveltal on almost every team trying to succeed, and even then being able to steal games away. Ditto usage from what I've seen has jumped to check it, and a lot more sets like Scarf /Sneak Marshadow and oppsing Scarf Calyrex have seen a bit of use to revenge it so it doesn't steamroll teams with it's ridiculous double ability giving it both Unnerve and a special version of Moxie. Waiting on this one to see, I think specs will take over the meta as the set to use personally if Dynamax is banned, because it can no longer set it's own psychic terrain or have the super strong fairy hit, but nothing can Dynamax against it as well, so tricking Yveltal can just lead to slow wins possibly even easier.
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I think it’s universally agreed between everyone that isn’t a sub-1100 shitter that Dynamax has no place in competitive play. Almost as much RNG (thank god you can make a clause for Dynamax however).
If you have read my posts I made throughout the year, I have been extremely adamant about Dynamax and my loath for it. I even hated the idea when it was first announced, showing off the ability to set terrains and lasted 3 turns, even before we knew about its random immunities like Heavy Slam and Encore. Or how there is 0 item or slot restrictions, meaning there is even less planning than before.
Having Dynamax restricted on certain Pokemon was a fair compromise in Ubers at least. Dynamaxing isn’t AS bad when you have access to Pokemon with Uber stats and Eternatus/Zacian with moves designed to be anti-dynamax.
And to no one’s surprise, letting Pokemon like Calyrex-Shadow and Ice, Xerneas, Yveltal, Zygarde, Necrozma-DM, Kyogre, Groudon, Rayquaza, and everything else with high BSTs was a bad idea.
So for the love of all gods from all religions, please ban Dynamax, or at least put back the restriction list back.
As for Calyrex-Shadow, it’s a special version of Zacian-C with its own strengths and weaknesses.
It can hold any item, has effectively more power despite the lower stat, has higher speed, and immunity to Extreme Speed, can hit on both defenses with Astral Barrage and Psyshock, and has Special Moxie, but gets cucked by Dark types (namely Yveltal and Ttar), has a worse defensive typing, has worse bulk and is frail by Uber standards, requires Specs to have the same initial power, has more limits on its coverage options, and its STABs can’t hit Normal and Dark respectfully so Specs sets can be taken advantage of easily (especially Dark types).
Calyrex-Shadow without a doubt is extremely powerful. However, it’s only marginally stronger than Zacian-C, a Pokemon we had to deal with since Gen 8 was released, and even with all the returning Pokemon, still only has 1 true switch-in being Quagsire, which can easily be trapped and killed by Gothitelle.
If you can find a counter to one Zacian-C, like defog Ho-oh countering some variants, it will just have coverage that beats them, with the exception of Quagsire.
In Calyrex’s case, it’s not as simple as swapping out 1 coverage move for another (although that is true for now since it can Dynamax, which may or may not be skewing people’s opinions on Calyrex-S).
If it wants to beat defensive Yveltal or Tyranitar, it has to trick a Choice Specs on to it, but you are still forced out as both can still kill you with their respective dark moves. And lets say that you did, but wait, that Yveltal already had Choice Specs because it’s such a diverse Pokemon that it can run tons of different sets. Now it is gonna blast Calyrex or what ever is switching in with a Specs+Dark Aura boosted Dark Pulse, a Specs boosted Oblivion Wing that heals it, or Specs boosted Focus Blast. Or alternatively a ballsy Scarf Kyogre nabs that Specs and will do serious damage with Origin Pulse boosted by Rain to most switch-ins.
And unless you have Dugtrio, you still are kind of screwed by SpD Tyranitar if you gave it specs. It can still switch in several times, especially after knowing you have Trick over either coverage or Nasty Plot. It’s still severally crippled, but tricking a specs onto Ttar doesn’t remove it as a check from the game unless you manage to trap it with Dugtrio.
So ok, Trick isn’t prefect at dealing with those pesky checks, and in some scenarios can backfire.
Well Calyrex-Shadow does indeed have more options.
Psychic terrain is an option I heard people throw around to prevent dreaded Sucker Punches from forcing out Calyrex and makes Psyshock extremely powerful, but this still requires a turn and a moveslot sacrifice as well, so that dreaded Tyranitar and Yveltal can shrug off its STABs with ease.
But what about its coverage? So far, it only really has Leaf Storm, Energy Ball, Drain Kiss, and Pollen Puff, all if which STILL let SpD Ttar and Yveltal scare it out. Even with Nasty Plot boost, aLeaf Storm (edit: I actually meant Energy Ball/Pollen Puff, but Leaf Storm still doesn’t OK without it being life orb) barely does over Half to Tyranitar, while Yveltal is unaffected by it, and Drain Kiss is the reverse where it can dent a defensive Yveltal, but not make a dent into Ttar.
Also reminder that as I’m going on this tangent, that I’m only referring to current OU staples AND defense checks (with the exception of Scarf Kyogre, which does have enough bulk to muscle through an Astral Barrage).
This does not include revenge killing (which is only made easier with the wide array of new viable speed control tools) and placement prevention (as in keeping it off the field).
I mentioned before Umbreon being a check to Calyrex, mostly as a joke, but there could be untapped potential in using Umbreon for Stall teams. Ubers has a history of making Pokemon with specific niches viable, like with Froslass in Gen 4.
Now let’s take a look at the history of Gen 8 Ubers and Zacian.
On initial release, Zacian-C has virtually no competition for scariest Uber Pokemon to face. It is pretty much Mega Mawile on crack. Eternatus was a great Pokemon but not exactly as sweat inducing fear, and Zacian-H was a close runner up thanks to Choice Band (and actually having no true counters with CB funny enough).
At this stage, the only true switch-in to Zacian-C was Quagsire. For the most part, Quagsire was useful when most of Ubers teams are only 2 legendaries, thus could get away with walling non-uber Pokemon, but it was primarily used as a true Zacian-C counter. Any other defensive check would falter to either its coverage moves or be overwhelmed by Swords Dance.
The best counterplay to Zacian-C was simply revenge killing it. Ditto, Excadrill, and Dugtrio coming to mind as Ditto would use the opponent’s Zacian-C against them, although walled harder by Quagsire and wouldn’t work against Sub sets. Excadrill was a great option too, outspeeding the entire Metagame for a short period, abusing Dynamax to break through checks, tank hits, and reset Sand. Dugtrio with Scarf would guarantee that Zacian-C is killed due to trapping.
Move Forward to post Home Meta, and while Zacian-C has gotten more checks, Necrozma and Lunala being very good at it but not perfect, pretty much everything has stayed the same. Only Quagsire is a true switch-in, and simply outspeeding it was only of the best ways with defeating Zacian.
Use something that can outspeed it, KO it, and do a lot of damage to what ever switches in, but with more options.
IoA comes out, and not much changes again.
CT comes out, and like with Home, brings a ton of new Ubers, most with new buffs like HDBs, Poltergeist, or simply a lack of Primals/Megas/Z-crystals/Arceus.
There is still 1 true counter to Zacian-C in Quagsire, and is Ho-oh pretty decent as a check too, but there is now even more revenge killing potential that’s deadlier and less demanding of certain conditions.
Almost nothing wants to tank a Rain Boosted Water Spout or a Groudon’s PB, Sacred Fire spam can easily spread burns, and the incredibly fast Regieleki is an excellent hitman.
Then there is the problem of Gothitelle having to deal with much more powerful Pokemon too.
The underlying point being that; If Ubers could stomach Zacian-C in Pre-Home, then it can deal with Calyrex-Shadow, which has similar methods of disposal or blockage currently. It’s only been about 3 full days of Calyrex-Shadow in Ubers, and there is no doubt that a lot of discovery is being halted by Dynamax running a muck.
And to be Frank, I say that Yveltal is the best Pokemon in the Ubers Metagame imo. Even without it being the best Answer to Calyrex in both formes. It’s Knock Off and Speed tier is such a deadly combo for its environment. Without Megas, Z-crystals, or Arceus, almost nothing can switch into Yveltal without being crippled, severally injured, both, or just simply dead. Knock Off from Yveltal is one of the best moves in the game with its spammability and power. Only Zacian-C can face off a Knock Off from Yveltal, but not even Zacian-C can stomach a Choice Band Foul Play. You also have Dark Aura boosted Sucker Punch, one of the best answers for Scarf Kyogre and Calyrex-Shadow, and is single handedly the (second technically to Grassy Glide Dhelmise) strongest priority move in the game. Then Yveltal is again gifted with such a variety of sets that it makes it look like the analysis Pokemon for Gen 3 Pokemon. Scarf, Bulky Scarf, Specs, Band, Defensive, Stallbreaker, Life Orb on either side or mixed, ect. Personally love CB because of that nearly uncontested knock off and have already posted my love for it in this thread.
And again, there being no Arceus means no Arceus-Dark, no Arceus-Fairy, no E-killer Arceus, or any other form that checks Yveltal either.
Even it’s best current check, Ttar, you still either do massive damage with Focus Blast or U-turn (another amazing tool of Yveltal), or knock off its Shed Shell/Leftovers, and that’s for its all-out offensive sets as Stallbreaker and Defensive can Taunt it to prevent Stealth Rock/Thunder Wave/Rest, and can Roost off Sand damage too.
This isn’t even counting Dynamax, as Yveltal is one of the best abusers of Dynamax too, as seen in AG/NatAG, a much harsher meta when Knock Off isn’t as spammable.
It’s the landorus-T of Ubers, fitting around on more playstyles and having even better utility. It truly is the Ultimate Lifeform (you know I had to do it. I missed out making this joke in my last post). It’s by no means broken, but Yveltal can find itself on most teams even without Calyrex-Shadow in the meta with a variety of roles it can take on.
If you have read my posts I made throughout the year, I have been extremely adamant about Dynamax and my loath for it. I even hated the idea when it was first announced, showing off the ability to set terrains and lasted 3 turns, even before we knew about its random immunities like Heavy Slam and Encore. Or how there is 0 item or slot restrictions, meaning there is even less planning than before.
Having Dynamax restricted on certain Pokemon was a fair compromise in Ubers at least. Dynamaxing isn’t AS bad when you have access to Pokemon with Uber stats and Eternatus/Zacian with moves designed to be anti-dynamax.
And to no one’s surprise, letting Pokemon like Calyrex-Shadow and Ice, Xerneas, Yveltal, Zygarde, Necrozma-DM, Kyogre, Groudon, Rayquaza, and everything else with high BSTs was a bad idea.
So for the love of all gods from all religions, please ban Dynamax, or at least put back the restriction list back.
As for Calyrex-Shadow, it’s a special version of Zacian-C with its own strengths and weaknesses.
It can hold any item, has effectively more power despite the lower stat, has higher speed, and immunity to Extreme Speed, can hit on both defenses with Astral Barrage and Psyshock, and has Special Moxie, but gets cucked by Dark types (namely Yveltal and Ttar), has a worse defensive typing, has worse bulk and is frail by Uber standards, requires Specs to have the same initial power, has more limits on its coverage options, and its STABs can’t hit Normal and Dark respectfully so Specs sets can be taken advantage of easily (especially Dark types).
Calyrex-Shadow without a doubt is extremely powerful. However, it’s only marginally stronger than Zacian-C, a Pokemon we had to deal with since Gen 8 was released, and even with all the returning Pokemon, still only has 1 true switch-in being Quagsire, which can easily be trapped and killed by Gothitelle.
If you can find a counter to one Zacian-C, like defog Ho-oh countering some variants, it will just have coverage that beats them, with the exception of Quagsire.
In Calyrex’s case, it’s not as simple as swapping out 1 coverage move for another (although that is true for now since it can Dynamax, which may or may not be skewing people’s opinions on Calyrex-S).
If it wants to beat defensive Yveltal or Tyranitar, it has to trick a Choice Specs on to it, but you are still forced out as both can still kill you with their respective dark moves. And lets say that you did, but wait, that Yveltal already had Choice Specs because it’s such a diverse Pokemon that it can run tons of different sets. Now it is gonna blast Calyrex or what ever is switching in with a Specs+Dark Aura boosted Dark Pulse, a Specs boosted Oblivion Wing that heals it, or Specs boosted Focus Blast. Or alternatively a ballsy Scarf Kyogre nabs that Specs and will do serious damage with Origin Pulse boosted by Rain to most switch-ins.
And unless you have Dugtrio, you still are kind of screwed by SpD Tyranitar if you gave it specs. It can still switch in several times, especially after knowing you have Trick over either coverage or Nasty Plot. It’s still severally crippled, but tricking a specs onto Ttar doesn’t remove it as a check from the game unless you manage to trap it with Dugtrio.
So ok, Trick isn’t prefect at dealing with those pesky checks, and in some scenarios can backfire.
Well Calyrex-Shadow does indeed have more options.
Psychic terrain is an option I heard people throw around to prevent dreaded Sucker Punches from forcing out Calyrex and makes Psyshock extremely powerful, but this still requires a turn and a moveslot sacrifice as well, so that dreaded Tyranitar and Yveltal can shrug off its STABs with ease.
But what about its coverage? So far, it only really has Leaf Storm, Energy Ball, Drain Kiss, and Pollen Puff, all if which STILL let SpD Ttar and Yveltal scare it out. Even with Nasty Plot boost, a
Also reminder that as I’m going on this tangent, that I’m only referring to current OU staples AND defense checks (with the exception of Scarf Kyogre, which does have enough bulk to muscle through an Astral Barrage).
This does not include revenge killing (which is only made easier with the wide array of new viable speed control tools) and placement prevention (as in keeping it off the field).
I mentioned before Umbreon being a check to Calyrex, mostly as a joke, but there could be untapped potential in using Umbreon for Stall teams. Ubers has a history of making Pokemon with specific niches viable, like with Froslass in Gen 4.
Now let’s take a look at the history of Gen 8 Ubers and Zacian.
On initial release, Zacian-C has virtually no competition for scariest Uber Pokemon to face. It is pretty much Mega Mawile on crack. Eternatus was a great Pokemon but not exactly as sweat inducing fear, and Zacian-H was a close runner up thanks to Choice Band (and actually having no true counters with CB funny enough).
At this stage, the only true switch-in to Zacian-C was Quagsire. For the most part, Quagsire was useful when most of Ubers teams are only 2 legendaries, thus could get away with walling non-uber Pokemon, but it was primarily used as a true Zacian-C counter. Any other defensive check would falter to either its coverage moves or be overwhelmed by Swords Dance.
The best counterplay to Zacian-C was simply revenge killing it. Ditto, Excadrill, and Dugtrio coming to mind as Ditto would use the opponent’s Zacian-C against them, although walled harder by Quagsire and wouldn’t work against Sub sets. Excadrill was a great option too, outspeeding the entire Metagame for a short period, abusing Dynamax to break through checks, tank hits, and reset Sand. Dugtrio with Scarf would guarantee that Zacian-C is killed due to trapping.
Move Forward to post Home Meta, and while Zacian-C has gotten more checks, Necrozma and Lunala being very good at it but not perfect, pretty much everything has stayed the same. Only Quagsire is a true switch-in, and simply outspeeding it was only of the best ways with defeating Zacian.
Use something that can outspeed it, KO it, and do a lot of damage to what ever switches in, but with more options.
IoA comes out, and not much changes again.
CT comes out, and like with Home, brings a ton of new Ubers, most with new buffs like HDBs, Poltergeist, or simply a lack of Primals/Megas/Z-crystals/Arceus.
There is still 1 true counter to Zacian-C in Quagsire, and is Ho-oh pretty decent as a check too, but there is now even more revenge killing potential that’s deadlier and less demanding of certain conditions.
Almost nothing wants to tank a Rain Boosted Water Spout or a Groudon’s PB, Sacred Fire spam can easily spread burns, and the incredibly fast Regieleki is an excellent hitman.
Then there is the problem of Gothitelle having to deal with much more powerful Pokemon too.
The underlying point being that; If Ubers could stomach Zacian-C in Pre-Home, then it can deal with Calyrex-Shadow, which has similar methods of disposal or blockage currently. It’s only been about 3 full days of Calyrex-Shadow in Ubers, and there is no doubt that a lot of discovery is being halted by Dynamax running a muck.
And to be Frank, I say that Yveltal is the best Pokemon in the Ubers Metagame imo. Even without it being the best Answer to Calyrex in both formes. It’s Knock Off and Speed tier is such a deadly combo for its environment. Without Megas, Z-crystals, or Arceus, almost nothing can switch into Yveltal without being crippled, severally injured, both, or just simply dead. Knock Off from Yveltal is one of the best moves in the game with its spammability and power. Only Zacian-C can face off a Knock Off from Yveltal, but not even Zacian-C can stomach a Choice Band Foul Play. You also have Dark Aura boosted Sucker Punch, one of the best answers for Scarf Kyogre and Calyrex-Shadow, and is single handedly the (second technically to Grassy Glide Dhelmise) strongest priority move in the game. Then Yveltal is again gifted with such a variety of sets that it makes it look like the analysis Pokemon for Gen 3 Pokemon. Scarf, Bulky Scarf, Specs, Band, Defensive, Stallbreaker, Life Orb on either side or mixed, ect. Personally love CB because of that nearly uncontested knock off and have already posted my love for it in this thread.
And again, there being no Arceus means no Arceus-Dark, no Arceus-Fairy, no E-killer Arceus, or any other form that checks Yveltal either.
Even it’s best current check, Ttar, you still either do massive damage with Focus Blast or U-turn (another amazing tool of Yveltal), or knock off its Shed Shell/Leftovers, and that’s for its all-out offensive sets as Stallbreaker and Defensive can Taunt it to prevent Stealth Rock/Thunder Wave/Rest, and can Roost off Sand damage too.
This isn’t even counting Dynamax, as Yveltal is one of the best abusers of Dynamax too, as seen in AG/NatAG, a much harsher meta when Knock Off isn’t as spammable.
It’s the landorus-T of Ubers, fitting around on more playstyles and having even better utility. It truly is the Ultimate Lifeform (you know I had to do it. I missed out making this joke in my last post). It’s by no means broken, but Yveltal can find itself on most teams even without Calyrex-Shadow in the meta with a variety of roles it can take on.
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just to speak for a minority here, no, I enjoy dynamax clause and I think it represents a refreshing departure from business as usual tiering and shows what makes ubers unique instead of just higher BSTs. I don’t really think a larger dynamax ban list is a particularly big deal, but maybe a longer list will cause someone’s head to explode from complexity, who knows. There are hundreds of mons banned from PU, but it occurs at the builder level so apparently that’s less of a heavy lift to learn? I respect the boldness of the TLs to try something different.
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I don't disagree at all that Ubers requires a Dynamax ban to preserve its integrity as a competitive tier. I do disagree with the idea that Dynamax was manageable prior to DLC2. Had Isle of Armor remained the main metagame, I would've argued the need to look at Dynamax Charizard, Excadrill, Kyurem-B and Dragapult at minimum. Those four alone put ludicrous pressure on teambuilding. When Dynamaxed, they all had, optimistically, three or less things that could consistently check them, and even those checks could very easily drop to a bit of chip damage. When you factored in other threatening Dynamaxers like Volcarona, Gyarados, and Drednaw, building consistently proved nearly impossible. Even generally effective teams like Grimmsnarl HOs and Eternatus-oriented bulky offenses found themselves losing to at least one of these seven strong Dynamaxers in the builder, almost solely because of their capacity to Dynamax. Even if everyone agreed that only half of these Dynamaxers deserved testing, that would still be cause for an unprecedented level of Ubers tiering. Now we have all the Pokemon, and all of them can Dynamax. It feels self-evident that maintaining the banlist and allowing everything to Dynamax are both unviable options, the former owing to the extensive setup and maintenance it would require and the latter to how Ubers has no semblance of balance when threats like Dynamax Xerneas, Zygarde, and Necrozma-Dusk-Mane roam free.
But I'm more interested in addressing the other 1,483 words of your post. We might not meaningfully disagree on Dynamax, but I think my take on Calyrex-SR couldn't be further from yours.
I take issue with your framing of Calyrex-SR as a Specially-oriented Zacian. It seems that almost your entire argument hinges on this analogy, which is unfortunate first of all because it isn't a particularly good comparison. I'll emphasize some differences you mention yourself:
Zacian-C is a Pokemon that every single contributor to the Isle of Armor Viability Rankings put in S Rank, and Crown Tundra gave us no new reliable defensive answers to it. I'd be astounded if Zacian-C doesn't end up in S again come the next Viability Rankings, and you've given us six things that make Calyrex-SR better than it. Though it's true that nothing in Ubers is banworthy because of its viability alone, it's very telling how we can conclude after a few days that Calyrex-SR has multiple factors making it stronger than what's been SS Ubers's premier offensive threat for around a year. On a purely offensive side, even disregarding some factors you neglect to mention such as Calyrex-SR's high versatility, free Unnerve, and spinblocking utility, there's a clear power imbalance between it and everything else. This power imbalance makes Calyrex-SR more like Mega Rayquaza than Zacian-C — and I'm sure you recall that we quickbanned that.
The Mega Rayquaza analogy holds true when you consider Calyrex-SR's lack of good defensive counterplay, too. You claim it
and you devote a decent amount of space to describing how there's ostensibly enough you can do to handle it that it's a healthy component of the tier. My problem here is that this defensive counterplay is much more restrictive and unreliable than you're making it out to be. You say, for instance, that
which isn't true. When you write that
I really can't tell where you're pulling this from, given that: +2 252 SpA Life Orb Calyrex-Shadow Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 424-499 (104.9 - 123.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO. The marginally weaker Grass Knot is a 75% chance to OHKO at +2. Are you trying to say that Tyranitar can defensively Dynamax to check Calyrex-SR? If so, what do you do if the Calyrex-SR user just switches out as you Dynamax? What do you do if you already used your Dynamax to check something else? More relevantly, what are you doing if Dynamax gets banned?
Your other point about Tyranitar also doesn't seem to hold up to scrutiny:
There's nothing saying, first off, that Calyrex-SR can't run Choice Specs and Grass Knot or Leaf Storm. This is a pretty ugly calc for Tyranitar: 252 SpA Choice Specs Calyrex-Shadow Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 226-266 (55.9 - 65.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO. Even if Calyrex-SR Tricks away its Specs, Grass Knot still cleanly 3HKOs even Leftovers Tyranitar, no Stealth Rock required. This is not "switch[ing] in several times;" this is coming in maybe twice and being nearly forced to click a weak Dark move every time in order to check it. You don't need to run Dugtrio to beat Tyranitar; any Calyrex-SR carrying a Grass-type move can do it on its own. It also isn't true that Calyrex-SR needs to run Choice Specs to beat defensive Yveltal. It can also Trick it a Choice Scarf, or run Substitute + Nasty Plot to avoid those Sucker Punches, or even do a Substitute + Leech Seed set that recovers almost as much HP from Yveltal as its Substitute takes to set up. If Yveltal gets Toxiced, loses its Heavy Duty Boots, or gets used to check anything besides Calyrex-SR, it's liable to fall victim to just about anything Calyrex-SR can do in the long game.
And bear in mind that this is Yveltal's best set to check Calyrex-SR; the others really aren't dependable at all. 0/0 variants have odds to get 2HKO'd by even unboosted Draining Kiss after Stealth Rock (252 SpA Calyrex-Shadow Draining Kiss vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Yveltal: 134-158 (34 - 40.2%) -- 34% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock), so throw out your
as anything but soft checks. You can run some HP or SpD on Specs or Band, I suppose, but not enough that you avoid the Life Orb Draining Kiss 2HKO and still have a functional set. You need 180 HP / 252 SpD or 8 HP / 252 SpD+ to never get 2HKO'd after Stealth Rock. This also makes "Bulky Scarf" and "Stallbreaker" sets questionable at best, given how much investment they require — you don't have enough leftover Speed EVs to outpace +Speed base 90s, for instance. Are you going to run a Scarf Yveltal that can't outpace Scarf Kyogre? A Charti stallbreaker that loses to Swords Dance Groudon? Another point against anything but a defensive set is that Yveltal needs all of Sucker Punch, Roost, and another Dark move to semi-consistently check Calyrex, not to mention how it needs Heavy Duty Boots to avoid Stealth Rock wearing it down too much. Surely you aren't going to run Choice Specs Sucker Punch, or Roost on a Life Orb set?
This evidence also helps me address your opinion that:
This take, and the paragraph you use to support it, reads very bizarrely to me. In a metagame with Calyrex-SR, does Yveltal become one of the best defensive Pokemon? Sure, probably. It's the only viable long-term defensive check to the strongest offensive Pokemon Ubers has seen since Mega Rayquaza. In a metagame without Calyrex-SR, is Yveltal still good? Sure! I don't disagree that "It’s Knock Off and Speed tier is such a deadly combo for its environment," or that "almost nothing can switch into Yveltal without being crippled, severally injured, both, or just simply dead," or even that "Knock Off from Yveltal is one of the best moves in the game with its spammability and power." But is it true that Yveltal is the best Ubers Pokemon,
as it were? No way. I'm pretty unsure whether "Yveltal is Landorus-T for Ubers" or "Calyrex-SR is Special Zacian-C" is a worse analogy. Landorus-T is better in every generation of OU than Yveltal has been in every generation of Ubers, bar maybe ORAS — and even there, speaking anecdotally, you're far more likely to see Landorus-T in ORAS OU than Yveltal in ORAS Ubers. Landorus-T's Stealth Rock, Intimidate, and better defensive typing give it a clear edge over Yveltal in terms of both splashability and utility in games in their respective tiers.
This doesn't mean Yveltal sucks. I mean, it's a Ground immune with U-turn and a pretty good speed tier, and in USM and ORAS it can run a variety of sets. The trouble it runs into in SS Ubers is that Calyrex-SR's existence forces it into running a Specially Defensive Heavy Duty Boots set. All your points about Choice Band and Choice Specs and everything else that should be great in this metagame don't really carry through when you consider how none of these reliably check the one thing that's necessitating that every team run Yveltal. I would love to build with all these different Yveltals. If you remove Calyrex-SR, from an offensive standpoint, this might be the best generation for Yveltal yet. I'd still easily put things like Necrozma-Dusk-Mane, Zacian-C, Kyogre, Eternatus, and Xerneas over it, but Yveltal'll be strong for sure. Yet it won't be the best Pokemon, and I'd feel real bad if every single one of my SS Ubers teams was required to run this restricted version of Yveltal forever.
So you have a Pokemon that mandates every team run one variant of one Pokemon to check it. This is pretty similar to Mega Rayquaza in ORAS; the only consistent check to that was Reflect Multiscale Lugia, and that was liable to lose in the long game. Looking at some Mega Rayquaza ORAS replays, I'm reminded very much of SS Ubers right now. You have a metagame still in its infancy, yet the power level of one of its threats far eclipses that of the others. When I look at your idea of using Umbreon and another poster's suggestion to use Zarude, I'm reminded of how back in 2014 people proposed things like Magnet Rise Klefki and Solrock as Mega Rayquaza checks. I'll grant that Umbreon does take Draining Kiss fairly well — +2 252 SpA Life Orb Calyrex-Shadow Draining Kiss vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon: 205-242 (52 - 61.4%) — but it loses super hard to Trick, never mind how much momentum it gives up and how little it does outside checking this one Pokemon.
Yet you contend in your post that Trick isn't actually that good. This is another metagame take that reads bizarrely. Of Trick, you write:
Do Yveltal and Tyranitar force Calyrex-SR out once Tricked? Yes, it still has to switch out. But then what? Both are liable to fall to Calyrex eventually. They need to get every play right, and they become giant momentum sinks besides that. Even if Calyrex-SR doesn't beat them on its own, the more these Pokemon need to come in, the better it is for the Calyrex-SR player. For instance, two of Ubers' scariest Pokemon, Geomancy Xerneas and Swords Dance Zacian-C, are more than happy to use a Pokemon Choice-locked into a Dark move or Recovery to set up. Your counterpoint to this — that maybe you can switch in something else, like Kyogre, to take the Trick — falls apart if you guess wrong. Are you going to switch Kyogre in on an unrevealed Calyrex-SR? What if it instead KOs it (252 SpA Choice Specs Calyrex-Shadow Astral Barrage vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kyogre: 262-310 (76.8 - 90.9%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock) and claims a Special Attack boost? Choice Specs Yveltal doesn't do it, either. It can't even switch in on Astral Barrage: 252 SpA Choice Specs Calyrex-Shadow Astral Barrage vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Yveltal: 178-210 (45.2 - 53.4%) -- 39.5% chance to 2HKO.
The fact is, Trick isn't just phenomenal on Calyrex-SR; it's one of the things that makes it so-broken-it's-uncompetitive. Trick is one of the reasons the Snorlaxes and Obstagoons and Porygon2s of the world can't handle it. All these passive would-be checks are essentially required to switch into an unrevealed Calyrex-SR, for fear of the Nasty Plot set. This takes the agency out of games because it forces plays that favor the Calyrex-SR user outrageously. It's the same dilemma you face every turn versus Mega Rayquaza in ORAS — do I stay in with Primal Groudon and Dragon Tail to preempt Dragon Dance, or do I switch out to avoid the OHKO from Choice Band Aqua Tail? If you haven't seen the set, you don't know the correct play, and guessing wrong can have game-losing consequences. Do I Dragon Tail with Zygarde-50% to preempt Nasty Plot and risk the Specs Astral Barrage OHKO, or do I switch into Yveltal and risk getting Tricked? It's the same mental calculus, and in all cases it favors the user of the unhealthy Pokemon. There might be a thought that one can run two checks — say, Porygon2 and defensive Yveltal — so that one can pick up the slack if the other gets Tricked, but it's an unfortunate fact that all of Calyrex-SR's checks have terrible defensive overlap. If you run two things dedicated exclusively to checking one Pokemon, I really don't think you're beating the rest of the metagame with your other four teamslots. There're just too many things to cover.
So I've established that defensively checking this thing is unreasonably hard, yet you also mention revenge killing and not giving it turns to come in:
The problem here is that even if I gave you all this, Calyrex-SR would still be too good for the metagame. You don't want to have a Pokemon you can't consistently beat except by revenge killing it. The biggest reason for this is obvious: Calyrex-SR can just switch out of your revenge killer, and then how do you beat it later? The idea of revenge killing it with a Choice Scarf Pokemon in particular is problematic because Calyrex-SR can have a Choice Scarf itself — if it outspeeds and KOs your Scarfer, it gets a Special Attack boost in addition to outpacing the entire tier bar a scarfed copy of itself. If you've already sacrificed a Pokemon to let the Choice Scarf user come in safely, and then Calyrex-SR reveals it has a Scarf of its own, you're probably doomed. Put another way:
Priority is a thought, but what does that even look like outside of Giratina-O and Marshadow's Shadow Sneaks, or Yveltal's Sucker Punch? Don't you say yourself that if Calyrex-SR really cares about this, it can run Psychic Terrain? How do you handle the fact that Marshadow and Giratina-O are never switching in? And, again: what if Calyrex-SR just switches out? Can you be certain you'll still have something around to handle it later?
I also refuse to believe you can keep Calyrex-SR off the field forever, even with very careful play. The opponent doesn't have to switch it in on an attack or status move. There are enough viable Ubers Pokemon that get U-turn, Teleport, and Volt Switch to bring it in, and even if your opponent doesn't have one of those they can probably just bring in Calyrex-SR after something gets KO'd. If the opponent has a Calyrex-SR on their team, you will have to contend with the fact that it'll come into the game at some point before you can win. You can try to set hazards to dissuade it from coming in, but this is putting a band-aid on a bullet wound. You can't beat Calyrex-SR just by chipping it when one of its best coverage options heals 75% of the damage it deals, never mind its access to Leech Seed. You pretty much need to OHKO it.
But OHKOing it should be easy, right? You describe how Calyrex-SR
If it's so weak defensively, surely most of the metagame can handle it. But how frail are those 100/80/100 defenses, really? Well, Calyrex-SR isn't living things like a Dracovish Fishious Rend or a Necrozma-Dusk-Mane Knock Off. On the other hand, we're not exactly dealing with a Deoxys-Attack here:
0 SpA Kyogre Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Calyrex-Shadow in Rain: 184-217 (53.9 - 63.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Eternatus Dynamax Cannon vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Calyrex-Shadow: 150-177 (43.9 - 51.9%) -- 10.9% chance to 2HKO
0 Atk Ferrothorn Power Whip vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Calyrex-Shadow: 148-175 (43.4 - 51.3%) -- 6.6% chance to 2HKO
224 Atk Zygarde-Complete Thousand Arrows vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Calyrex-Shadow: 144-171 (42.2 - 50.1%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
0 Atk Groudon Precipice Blades vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Calyrex-Shadow: 220-261 (64.5 - 76.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Fairy Aura Xerneas Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Calyrex-Shadow: 171-202 (50.1 - 59.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
The fact is, Calyrex-SR is just bulky enough that it has room to set up on most defensive Pokemon currently viable in Ubers, even without investing in bulk. Zacian-C might have a better defensive typing than it, but at the end of the day who really cares? Calyrex-SR doesn't need to be a defensive sponge to throw the tier off balance; Mega Rayquaza certainly wasn't. The relevant point here is that you can't actually OHKO Calyrex-SR just by sneezing at it, which decisively moves it from the realm of something terrifying mostly in theory (USM Nagandel, Nasty Plot Deoxys-Attack, Kartana) to something that reshapes the viability of defensive Pokemon as we currently know them.
Your post ends with a much more involved attempt to analogize Zacian-C to Calyrex-SR. This involves a lengthy history lesson:
I take issue with some of the particulars of this history, but perhaps my biggest problem with it is the way you frame Quagsire as the only Zacian-C switch-in. This was untrue at all points in SS Ubers's development and remains untrue today. Pre-home, switching in a Rocky Helmet Pokemon and following up with a Dugtrio did just fine in most games; Zacian-C could try to anti-metagame Dugtrio with Swords Dance and Quick Attack, but Dugtrio could adapt in turn by investing in Defense. Though it's true that not a whole lot handled Zacian-C outside this, what your history neglects to mention is that the rest of the metagame was also much smaller. When you have only a handful of offensive threats to worry about, it's much more doable to run one of two things on every team to check Zacian-C. It also seems important to mention that Dugtrio + chip damage remained a viable Zacian-C answer through even the Isle of Armor DLC. Furthermore, post-Home we gained Necrozma-Dusk-Mane, a third thing that functions as a near-counter to Zacian-C. I find it super weird that you celebrate Quagsire as a Zacian-C counter, given that it drops to Solar Blade in Sun, but downplay Necrozma-Dusk-Mane, which only loses to the very rare Assurance variant on a switch-in with Stealth Rock up.
In any case, I've given you two other consistent checks to Zacian-C, which challenges your idea that it
This is relevant because it undermines your argument that Calyrex-SR and Zacian-C are about equally manageable. Zacian-C is much easier to handle; it has three solid answers (Necrozma-Dusk-Mane, Quagsire, Dugtrio + chip) as opposed to Calyrex-SR's one semi-consistent check (defensive Yveltal). This alone should invalidate your point that
yet consider also that what you're saying here is predicated upon a pretty questionable assumption. The big problem with comparing Zacian-C to Calyrex-SR in this way, aside from how it's a poor analogy, is that you're asserting that Zacian-C itself is a healthy component of the Ubers metagame when the rest of your post seems to argue anything but. For all your talk of Zacian-C having only one consistent answer that "loses to Gothitelle," I'm amazed you're not making a pro-Zacian-ban post. You mention how
and then turn this around to try to say that we shouldn't ban Calyrex-SR? Your metagame analysis is inconsistent with your claim that Ubers has handled Zacian-C just fine. When you write that Calyrex-SR "without a doubt is extremely powerful" and "marginally stronger than" what you've framed as an absolute metagame-breaker in Zacian-C, wouldn't your logical conclusion be that we should tier both Zacian-C and Calyrex-SR out of SS Ubers? Why do you instead say that Ubers can handle the one, so it can also handle the other?
I lastly want to address this:
There's no denying that SS Ubers is currently in a state of chaos due to everything being able to Dynamax, and this is certainly skewing our perception of some parts of the metagame. Regrettably, however, I'm not convinced there's any more metagame discovery to be had regarding viable defensive answers to Calyrex-SR. A 120 Base Power Ghost STAB coming off 165 Base Special Attack 2HKOs almost everything that isn't a Normal or bulky Dark type. The pool of Normal and bulky Dark types is highly limited and generally useless outside of switching into Calyrex-SR, never mind how Trick ruins the few things that otherwise could gain some traction versus it. We aren't going to find an easily splashable and consistent Calyrex-SR answer nobody's considered yet, because it's easy enough to look at everything we have at our disposal and conclude that none of it is sufficient. Even if it takes a month to get around to looking at Calyrex-SR, we still won't have any new real answers to it. I feel the best we'll get is perhaps a new soft check or two, and this'd come at the expense of a month of lost metagame development in a better, Calyrex-SR-less tier.
There's a thought of waiting to suspect Dynamax before looking at Calyrex-SR, but I can't see the need for this. Calyrex-SR actually gets better in a metagame without Dynamax, because Dynamax isn't really what breaks it. Calyrex-SR cares less about its own ability to Dynamax than it cares that its checks can't pull a last-ditch defensive Dynamax. In a metagame without Dynamax, Calyrex-SR will still be able to easily overcome all its hypothetical checks and still will restrict building an unviable degree. We should be looking at this thing as fast as possible — every day we don't is another day SS Ubers remains an unplayable mess, Dynamax or not.
So Calyrex-S not a extremely fast Pokemon with moderate bulk and a sky high attack?
Of course there are differences. There are absolutely no Pokemon that are 100% identical.
I said it’s overall marginally better, and being better doesn’t mean it actually his harder to counter or is more centralizing.
One extreme example was Hoopa-U back when it was banned from OU. It was nearly uncounterable once it got onto the field due to its high offenses, vast movepool, and a variety of sets it could use. Despite this, there were still tons of wallbreakers that were still better Hoopa-U even though they had more switch ins, all because they were much easier to bring in and the amount of Pokemon that they would be countered by wasn’t too far off from Hoopa-U.
Zacian-C still only has 1 true switch in that can deal with all its sets. Calyrex-S has more, which have uses outside of countering Calyrex-S
I’ll respond to the rest of your post later. Thank you for sharing your perspective.
Still, once Grim Neigh is up, really the only thing that stops Calyrex-Shadow are priority moves and scarf, and last time I checked, the only Uber mons with Shadow Sneak and Sucker Punch were Yveltal, both Giratina forms, and Marshadow. I highly doubt many people will switch to Choice Scarf for the explicit purpose of countering ONE pokemon.
To be fair, Scarf Marshadow is already a standard set, because it offensively checks Zacian-C lacking Play Rough, most Dragon Dancers and can also remove boosts from a set-up Geomancy Xerneas that doesn't specifically speed creep it. Marshadow is a shaky check and not the best choice in this meta for other reasons, but it does have meaningful utility outside of dealing with Calyrex.
Dynamax is stupidly op and should go. The more interesting topic is Calyrex.
Calyrex is by far the best offensive pokemon I can remember using in ubers and if it can maintain this level of output post dyna ban I think we should seriously look at it as potentially being too much. But it is plausible that the limitations that dmax causes in the teambuilder might be making Calyrex less manageable in spite of calyrex not really being a fantastic user of it. The need to try to check all the dangerous setup sweepers and stuff like ScarfOgre that can switch moves if it can deal with the check that came in, might plausibly be restricting teambuilding options to suit a metagame that Calyrex can thrive in to an unreasonable extent.
I feel like caution isnt a bad thing to exercise in banning another pokemon to the land of Mega Ray, especially as, lets not kid ourselves, Calyrex has flaws that Mega Ray did not (defensive typing, no priority, inability to set up speed and damage at the same time) and while it is stupidly powerful in this dmax-littered meta, I feel it would be better by attempting to keep it around and see if we can find better means of keeping it in check first before wanting to dive into a second suspect 3 weeks into the new meta.
Calyrex is by far the best offensive pokemon I can remember using in ubers and if it can maintain this level of output post dyna ban I think we should seriously look at it as potentially being too much. But it is plausible that the limitations that dmax causes in the teambuilder might be making Calyrex less manageable in spite of calyrex not really being a fantastic user of it. The need to try to check all the dangerous setup sweepers and stuff like ScarfOgre that can switch moves if it can deal with the check that came in, might plausibly be restricting teambuilding options to suit a metagame that Calyrex can thrive in to an unreasonable extent.
I feel like caution isnt a bad thing to exercise in banning another pokemon to the land of Mega Ray, especially as, lets not kid ourselves, Calyrex has flaws that Mega Ray did not (defensive typing, no priority, inability to set up speed and damage at the same time) and while it is stupidly powerful in this dmax-littered meta, I feel it would be better by attempting to keep it around and see if we can find better means of keeping it in check first before wanting to dive into a second suspect 3 weeks into the new meta.
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I'd also love to see Astral Barage be tested first before Calyrex, we have already crossed the river in terms of openness to complex banning and having to use the 50% weaker shadow ball might be enough of a nerf (if we think horse is still too good). I really think banning a mon should be an absolute last resort in ubers. Ubers deleted the mega evo button from ray simulating a gentleman's agreement, I don't see why Astral Barrage couldn't be similar. Dragon Ascent wasn't banned out of a desire to preserve regular ray, but there is no collateral here with AB. Just some food for thought.
Astral Barrage is not a broken move by any means, the only reason Calyrex can spam is because Calyrex can hold an item, has Special Moxie and 165 base special attack. Put Astral Barrage on anything else and it's excellent, but nowhere near tier breaking.
Firstly, I want to make it clear that I fully support suspect tests and active tiering for anything that community wants. Community seems to want to test Calyrex-Shadow and Dynamax and I fully support having tests for these game elements.
My issue with calls for Calyrex-Shadow and Dynamax bans is that I find this metagame to be really fun and I want to keep playing it. I also believe that having suspect tests will increase the amount of people playing Ubers and giving community something to do. I would like to see suspect test for Dynamax first, then Calyrex-Shadow so that I can vote Do not ban on both votes.
My issue with calls for Calyrex-Shadow and Dynamax bans is that I find this metagame to be really fun and I want to keep playing it. I also believe that having suspect tests will increase the amount of people playing Ubers and giving community something to do. I would like to see suspect test for Dynamax first, then Calyrex-Shadow so that I can vote Do not ban on both votes.
AllTerrainVen0moth
Banned deucer.
I was experimenting, and I found some interesting tech.
Pheromosa @ Choice Scarf / Choice Band
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Throat Chop
- U-turn
- Close Combat
- Poison Jab
Phermosa is the only viable thing that can outspeed Shadow Calyrex, and it can OHKO with Throat Chop.
252 Atk Pheromosa Throat Chop vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Calyrex-Shadow: 436-516 (127.4 - 150.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
I mean sure, it still gets cucked by Shadow Calyrex, but hey, its still a potential answer.
Pheromosa @ Choice Scarf / Choice Band
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Throat Chop
- U-turn
- Close Combat
- Poison Jab
Phermosa is the only viable thing that can outspeed Shadow Calyrex, and it can OHKO with Throat Chop.
252 Atk Pheromosa Throat Chop vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Calyrex-Shadow: 436-516 (127.4 - 150.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
I mean sure, it still gets cucked by Shadow Calyrex, but hey, its still a potential answer.
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Unsure if you notice but pheromosa doesn’t need a Scarf to outspeed. Pheromosa is 151 and Calyrex is 150, you outspeed scarf or not.I was experimenting, and I found some interesting tech.
Pheromosa @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Throat Chop
- U-turn
- Close Combat
- Poison Jab
Scarf Phermosa is the only viable thing that can outspeed Shadow Calyrex, and it can OHKO with Throat Chop.
252 Atk Pheromosa Throat Chop vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Calyrex-Shadow: 436-516 (127.4 - 150.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
I mean sure, it still gets cucked by Shadow Calyrex, but hey, its still a potential answer.
AllTerrainVen0moth
Banned deucer.
Ok, but choice scarf is still useful to outspeed other scarfers
"Fun" and "balanced" are two very different things. For example, it's a lot of fun to play Super Smash Bros. Melee, but can you honestly say the game is balanced? Of course not. There's a clear hierarchy among the characters; some of them have amazing tools (Fox, Sheik, Marth, etc.) while others are nearly impossible to win with (Bowser, Kirby, etc.). In my opinion, one should vote in a suspect test based on whether it's healthy for the metagame rather than based on whether the game is fun to play. Volcarona is one of my favorite Pokémon and I love using it, but if it ended up being completely broken and unhealthy in a metagame and got suspected, I'd vote it out in a heartbeat.My issue with calls for Calyrex-Shadow and Dynamax bans is that I find this metagame to be really fun and I want to keep playing it. I also believe that having suspect tests will increase the amount of people playing Ubers and giving community something to do. I would like to see suspect test for Dynamax first, then Calyrex-Shadow so that I can vote Do not ban on both votes.
Of course, that implies that I'd even try to participate in a suspect test, and that I would be good enough to meet the requirements for voting, but the point still stands.
You're wrong. Balance is only a factor if you think that it's important for a fun game, which you clearly disagree with.
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...xt-generation-a-proposal.3646198/post-8020800
I think we have to pause for a bit here.
While discussion about Shadow's power in the current meta is fine, the discussion about suspect testing it based on the hypothetical future has little value right now because it is impossible to provide evidence or experience it. Theorymon around "is Shadow too strong in a post Dynamax ban metagame" is not suitable for this thread for that reason - if Dynamax is banned the metagame will be very different and that will alter Shadow's strength, for better or worse. We don't need to rile ourselves up about a metagame that doesn't currently exist. I understand the want to discuss it (I have thoughts on it myself), but its taking shots in the dark.
I am open to discussing Shadow in detail after the Dynamax test is resolved, but I'm also wary of two factors: people making their minds up based on the current metagame, and any ban momentum from Dynamax carrying over to Shadow. I wouldn't expect immediate movements after the Dyna test is resolved. Relax and take things one at a time.
While discussion about Shadow's power in the current meta is fine, the discussion about suspect testing it based on the hypothetical future has little value right now because it is impossible to provide evidence or experience it. Theorymon around "is Shadow too strong in a post Dynamax ban metagame" is not suitable for this thread for that reason - if Dynamax is banned the metagame will be very different and that will alter Shadow's strength, for better or worse. We don't need to rile ourselves up about a metagame that doesn't currently exist. I understand the want to discuss it (I have thoughts on it myself), but its taking shots in the dark.
I am open to discussing Shadow in detail after the Dynamax test is resolved, but I'm also wary of two factors: people making their minds up based on the current metagame, and any ban momentum from Dynamax carrying over to Shadow. I wouldn't expect immediate movements after the Dyna test is resolved. Relax and take things one at a time.
I find it weird the argument of a pokemon being hyper centralizing can be brought up in a teir that has had pokemon like Primal Groudon reach nearly 80 percent usage. That and other pokemon that required super limited defensive counter play respective to their generation like Water spout Kyogre and XY Geomancy Xerneas. While both had "counters" revenge killing these was the main option for stopping their rampage. While Shadow horse is dumb Dynamax is way way worse since it essentially allows you to win games turn one or two with the removal of key pokemon or stat boosts you gain. Get dynamax out and then worry about spooky horse
Lugia can now run psycho boost (obtained by purifying Shadow Lugia in XD) with multiscale, thanks to the ability patch. Just wanted to put it out there, didn't know where else.
He cannot unfortunately, Psycho Boost is not selectable in-game
Calyrex is way overhyped as a threat.
Yveltel can switch in and destroy it and marshadow can revenge kill it. Heck the thing has 4x weaknesses to ghost and dark moves which have wide distribution in ubers.
Calyrex can't run coverage moves like Zacian can. Ho-oh gets mauled by wild charge. necrozma gets hit by crunch and steels can get hit by either close combat or fire fang.
Yveltel can switch in and destroy it and marshadow can revenge kill it. Heck the thing has 4x weaknesses to ghost and dark moves which have wide distribution in ubers.
Calyrex can't run coverage moves like Zacian can. Ho-oh gets mauled by wild charge. necrozma gets hit by crunch and steels can get hit by either close combat or fire fang.
Coverage move isn't necessary when Astral Barrage hits 90% of the tier for neutral damage (only resisted by Dark). Zacian can be revenge killed by every single relevant scarfer in the game (Kyogre, Reshiram etc). And of course, it's countered by Quagsire and Defensive Necrozma DM (if not running SD).
Calyrex is a better wallbreaker than Zacian by a massive amount, but it also has its checks. However it's much harder to contain than Zacian once its checks are killed.
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