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Hey everyone, Cinderace has stayed legal following its suspect test, so we'd like to move onto another relatively quickly. We opnened an "On The Radar" thread for a week, and the support behind suspect testing Spectrier was overwhelming.
Suspect Test Reasoning
Spectrier has only been in the metagame for a couple of months, and while it was initially dismissed because of its lacking movepool, it has made a quick rise to the top of the metagame and many people claim it to be a toxic influence on the metagame.
Why is that? For starters, Spectrier is an incredibly straining presence in the builder. It practically forces you to use Mega Tyranitar, Tyranitar, Hydreigon, or some Pokemon that are otherwise hardly viable, like Mandibuzz. Even though Blissey is immune to Ghost and has some incredible special bulk, it is not a good check to Spectrier unless it runs Psywave or Shadow Ball. The former is not desireable because it doesn't even consistently break Spectrier's Substitute and forces Blissey to give up Natural Cure, and running Shadow Ball means giving up Seismic Toss or Toxic / Thunder Wave, which makes Blissey much more passive.
Spectrier is also not the kind of Pokemon that you can outplay easily; you are either prepared for it defensively or it will snowball out of control. There is very little room to outplay a Pokemon with a great Speed tier, an ability that enables snowballing, and a very solid typing to boot like Spectrier.
Spectrier has also shown to be more versatile than it seems on paper. Despite its shallow movepool, it can overwhelm checks like Hydreigon with Z-Hyper Beam, cripple Mega Tyranitar with Will-O-Wisp, and prevent Choice Band Tyranitar from checking it with Disable. This makes it even harder to prepare for, because these are practically the only viable checks available.
However, it is not like Spectrier is a perfect Pokemon, and it is also true that it brings something to the tier. In particular, Spectrier can definitely struggle against hyper offensive teams that give it little to no room to setup and otherwise can easily overwhelm it with priority from Rillaboom and Mega Scizor. It is also perhaps the best Speed control in the tier that can simultaneously take on fast defensive threats like Mega Latias.
Suspect Test Information
Reading this is mandatory to participate in the suspect test. The voting requirements are a minimum GXE of 80 with at least 50 games played. In addition, you may play 1 less game for every 0.2 GXE you have above 80 GXE, down to a minimum of 30 games at a GXE of 84. Also, doing more than 50 games to reach 80 GXE will suffice.
GXE
minimum games
80
50
80.2
49
80.4
48
80.6
47
80.8
46
81
45
81.2
44
81.4
43
81.6
42
81.8
41
82
40
82.2
39
82.4
38
82.6
37
82.8
36
83
35
83.2
34
83.4
33
83.6
32
83.8
31
84
30
You must use a fresh account that begins with the given prefix for this suspect test. That prefix is NXSPEC. For example, I could signup and qualify with the name NXSPEC Jordy.
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The Pokemon that's being suspect tested, Spectrier, will be allowed on the National Dex ladder for the next two weeks so that we can properly assess its position in the metagame.
This suspect test will go on for two weeks. It will last until January the 18th at 11:59 PM GMT+1.
You are required to make sure that whatever you are arguing for is in-line with the Tiering Policy Framework. If what you're arguing for isn't, there's a very high chance that your post will be deleted.
No uninformed one liners or posts;
No discussion on other potential suspect tests;
No discussion on the suspect test process.
Your posts are expected to be respectful, please do not insult anyone.
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So the ghost horse is finally being tested, its quite ironic how much we overlooked this mon. I believe its broken and would like to highlight 2 sets that show this
Normalium-Z
This set utilizes hyper beam's power to break through pretty much all defensive counterplay. Bliss and specially defensive hydreigon are 2 examples of this. The only drawback of this set is diminishing your stallbreaking capabilities as you lose disable/taunt as well as your nuke in ghostium-z.
Ghostium-Z
The one that started it all. This set utilises ghostium-z to break past common walls such as toxapex, magearna, gastrodon, and many other fatmons that would otherwise wall it, this set is arguably the best stallbreaker in the tier aswell, utilizing sub aswell as disable or taunt to dismantle common stall cores.
The only common counter to these two sets is ttar, which can still lose to the rare however threatening sub/disable/willowisp set.
I am going to vote Ban for Spectrier and this is why.
This Pokemon has a bad move pool, which isn't a big problem after all. The only good Pokemons against Spectrier are Mega Lopunny, Rillaboom with Grassy Glide and Scizor if Spectrier has no Substitute, Tyranitar and it's Mega, Hydraigon and some niche mons like Alola Muk and Mandibuzz. This pokemon is extremely Teambuilding restrictive, because it forces you to run a bulky dark type and even the most of them aren't a 100% answer. If you have Choise Band Tyranitar, Spectrier can use Substitute and Disable, and the same goes for Hydraigon if it switches in and Spectrier has a free Substitute, but the best set for Spectrier is this set: https://pokepast.es/8969afb01f687fad
This set comes in against a pokemon that doesn't do much against it like Blissey if it hasn't got Shadow Ball or Psywafe, it makes a free Substitute, set up some Nasty Plots then and often sweeps the whole team, because Spectrier has an extremely high Speed with a Base of 130 and a Special attack base of 145.
Here is a Replay that shows an Spectrier sweeping and that stall is nothing for Spectrier: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nationaldex-1241561360-nc1t94j3lwpvfop1qren3tik0bh0ei4pw
The problem about Spectrier is the fact that it can easily sweep teams that even have 2 good pokemons against it, because it has a few good and different sets and a Fighting type Pokemon can defeat everything that Spectrier can't.
I will vote for no ban for plenty of reasons which I will elaborate here.
I want to start off by explaining what Spectrier actually provides to a healthy metagame. I do think people tend to focus too much on the negative aspects of a suspected Pokemon, which is why it’s important to me to also list the positive aspects of Spectrier remaining in OU.
Spectrier balances out some of the biggest threats in the current metagame like Slowbro or Latias. Slowbro for example can just come in and Teleport out on many of the most popular pokemon being around. With Spectrier being one of the Pokemon Slowbro actually has no chance to stand up against, Slowbros role is weakened to a point where I don’t view it as particularly unhealthy. I want to point out I do think Slowbro is the most banworthy Pokemon at the Moment and strengthening its role even more doesn’t seem like the best idea.
Besides weakening these threats Spectrier also works as a great stallbreaker. Stall as it is right now, seems healthy. I do remember a point in the metagame during Gen 7 where stall was way too dominant, and it was basically impossible to top the ladder without using stall yourself and I really want to avoid such a situation occurring again. Again, I do think the existence of Spectrier helps balancing stall out to. This way we can make sure stall remains its role as a decent strat in general, but doesn’t become broken.
Now I want to explain why I don’t think Spectrier actually provides to an unhealthy metagame.
I do think that the biggest reason for people believing Spectrier is broken is the unwillingness to adapt sets of specific Pokemon a little to deal with it better. Now I’ve seen people telling that a Pokemon apparently is broken, when you start to not play a generally optimal set just to make sure you can counter this particular pokemon. Then again, we also have people playing surprise Grass Knots, on Koko for example, just to counter Swampert/Gastrodon. A lot of HP Ice that you see exist solely to catch Landorus. And I played V-create over Searing Shot Victini aswell just to have a better Matchup vs. Chansey/Blissey. I do not think that this alone already makes a Pokemon broken. I would agree if people started to play things that have no use besides countering Spectrier. I remember for example when Naganadel in gen 7 was legal people started to play weird AV Tyranitar sets which didn’t serve any other purpose but stopping Naganadel. In Spectriers case its different though.
As I’ve already named Tyranitar, Tyranitar is a huge threat to Spectrier even with a set that is also perfectly useful vs. teams without Spectrier. Next we have Bisharp that can always come in and Sucker Punch, again a normal set and if you want to have even more against Spectrier you can even Pursuit Trap it. Now as I mentioned before, that is not the optimal set to play on Bisharp but then again Pursuit serves a larger purpose than just trapping Spectrier. Obviously both Bisharp and Tyranitar fear Will O Wisp. However even when being burned Pursuit still has a decent chance to OHKO when Spectrier switches out. So, the absolute worst that can happen when you misspredict Spectriers set is trading a burn vs. a kill.
Another Mon that I felt was completely missed out as a Spectrier counter is Shadow Ball Blissey. Yet again not the optimal set, but Shadow Ball can also be extremely helpful vs. Blacephalon and is not much worse than Seismic Toss in general, improving your Matchup vs. Kartana, Aegislash and Sableye. Weakening Blissey a little also has a balancing effect on the current metagame, where Blissey is pretty dominant. Lastly I also want to mention specially defensive Mandibuzz as a great counter with Foul Play. Both Blissey and Mandibuzz counter Spectrier entirely despite Spectriers set.
Now the next thing I want to point out is how little flexibility you have when playing Spectrier yourself. The most feared set is the Z-Ghostium set as far as I can tell (as other sets have even more counters and checks than named before such as Fini, Magearna, Hydreigon etc.). The Z-Ghostium set can only function as late game cleaner though. The most popular Scarfers (Landorus, Kartana, Greninja) either kill Spectrier from full or kill it after Stealth Rock damage and then there is also Rillaboom which OHKOs with Grassy Glide. So basically even if Spectrier gets a kill in the early game with Never-Ending Nightmare its still revengekilled right after or has to switch out, not being of the greatest use anymore for the rest of the game as Spectrier also isn’t the greatest switchin.
I’ve heard people claiming that Scarfers/Rillaboom don’t help against Spectrier being boosted and behind a sub. But I do want to point out that with Spectrier neither having the greatest bulk nor the greatest defensive typing its really difficult for anyone to even get boosted and behind a sub. Making sure that doesn’t happen should be easy for any team, and if not, the team definitely lacks offensive pressure. Also this argument can be brought up against basically every Pokemon that sets up.
To sum it up:
Spectriers positive impact of the meta balancing Slowbro/Latias/Blissey and balancing stall is by far bigger than its negative impact, as with Tyranitar, Blissey, Mandibuzz and Bisharp around, there are enough solid switchins and as with Landorus, Kartana, Greninja and Rillaboom being around, there are enough Mons that stop it from sweeping. Also I feel like the meta is pretty healthy as it is right now. I’m going to vote for No Ban.
Spectrier seems shallow on paper but is in practice, quite problematic to deal with due to numerous factors.
Spectrier has the ability to quickly snowball out of control with very little set up or skill required, and with enough Nasty Plot boosts, it's Z-Move sets are even capable of OHKOing the best answers you'd have to it (such as Z-Hyper Beam vs a Specially Defensive Hydreigon). Substitute allows it to avoid many things that would otherwise hinder it, and it can even beat it's most "reliable" check, Tyranitar, by either disabling the choice band set to force it into struggling or wisping the mega to neuter it's offensive power. Adding to this, Spectrier is deceptively bulky and can comfortably take a couple of non-SE hits should it need to. It's coverage isn't good, but it doesn't need anything more than the tools it already has to blow open what would otherwise wall it; even Bulletproof Mons aren't safe from the Shadow Ball sets when it can easily use Ghostium-Z to blow them across the room.
Outside of Tyranitar and Hydreigon (which as I've said, aren't reliable), the only Pokemon that can beat it tend to be very niche choices that falter against anything else and will still fail to handle it should they predict incorrectly what the set they're going up against is (for example, Mandibuzz isn't an ideal answer against it as it's frailer on the special side and can't hurt Spectrier back if it's running Substitute/Disable, making it set-up fodder). It can even take down dedicated special walls such as Blissey with minimum effort due to the ease with which it can rack up it's boosts. As such, Spectrier forces every team to either prepare multiple dedicated answers for it to ensure that it's handled or essentially lose at team preview.
tl;dr,
Spectrier forces you to use multiple very specific pokemon to beat it, but it's capable of crippling or neutering those 'counters' anyways even without factoring in the rest of it's team, and due to it's massive power it's extremely easy to set up with it and begin bulldozing entire teams by spamming it's choice of attack, and it's way too easy to support.
Funny that this Suspect Test starts about the same day I start fucking around on Showdown with a Breloom+Spectrier for shits and giggles. I’ll be playing more and more with Spec and its common partners, as well as the sets. Just from Ghostium Z+Nasty Plot, this tears through so many teams that it requires a Dark-Type, namely Tyranitar or Hydreigon. I’ve also seen many other anti-lead options in low ladder lately with people trying to use Shadow Claw Scarf Garchomp and even Incineroar, but the former two are the two I see the most of. There’s also Blissey and I guess Exploud, but Exploud is so frail, it’s not worth running (not as a Spec check, at least). Tyranitar has the edge of also resisting Z-Hyper Beam sets and trapping Spec with Pursuit, but how is it healthy for everyone to run one specific Pokémon to counter only one other? Not to say Tyranitar is bad, quite the opposite, but it shouldn’t come down to one universal answer that gets blanket checked by Wisp, anyways. Scarf Hydreigon sounds like a promising answer, though, even if it can’t take a +2 Neverending Nightmare after Rocks. It’s at least a good way to force a switch early.
I’m just getting early thoughts out at the moment as I haven’t made up my mind about the horse just yet, but as somebody who has only recently reconnected to a metagame, this is looking to be interesting.
I will vote for no ban for plenty of reasons which I will elaborate here.
To sum it up:
Spectriers positive impact of the meta balancing Slowbro/Latias/Blissey and balancing stall is by far bigger than its negative impact, as with Tyranitar, Blissey, Mandibuzz and Bisharp around, there are enough solid switchins and as with Landorus, Kartana, Greninja and Rillaboom being around, there are enough Mons that stop it from sweeping. Also I feel like the meta is pretty healthy as it is right now. I’m going to vote for No Ban.
Time to nitpick this argument. This is kinda bizarre to look at tbh, the arguments feel surreal and forced - it doesn't really make any sense as to why you would actively vote dnb with any mon with this sort of reasoning.
Firstly I want to take a look at the ideals of Spectrier "not having enough bulk"
Now the next thing I want to point out is how little flexibility you have when playing Spectrier yourself. The most feared set is the Z-Ghostium set as far as I can tell (as other sets have even more counters and checks than named before such as Fini, Magearna, Hydreigon etc.). The Z-Ghostium set can only function as late game cleaner though. The most popular Scarfers (Landorus, Kartana, Greninja) either kill Spectrier from full or kill it after Stealth Rock damage and then there is also Rillaboom which OHKOs with Grassy Glide. So basically even if Spectrier gets a kill in the early game with Never-Ending Nightmare its still revengekilled right after or has to switch out, not being of the greatest use anymore for the rest of the game as Spectrier also isn’t the greatest switchin.
Not only do I think you have your roles mixed up here (think, why would something that's relegated to a lategame cleaner role be revenge killed by Choice Scarfers and priority?), there's a comically large flaw in this argument.
252 Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Spectrier: 268-316 (78.5 - 92.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Landorus does not revenge kill Spectrier at all, and it has an even harder time against a more recently developed Spectrier set, that whilst it cuts into its offensive potential and makes Hydreigon a little harder to KO, it's still an insanely nuts mon that's practically impossible for offenses to deal with without using a niche Pokemon. Introducing: Bulky Z Spectrier.
252 Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 44 HP / 132 Def Spectrier: 220-261 (62.5 - 74.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO [Knock Off doesn't kill item Spectrier either: 252 Atk Landorus-Therian Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 44 HP / 132 Def Spectrier: 286-338 (81.2 - 96%) -- guaranteed 2HKO]
252 Atk Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 44 HP / 132 Def Spectrier: 237-279 (67.3 - 79.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO [Knock Off does less damage - this is a roll against a knockable item however: 252 Atk Kartana Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 44 HP / 132 Def Spectrier: 340-400 (96.5 - 113.6%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO]
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs. 44 HP / 132 Def Spectrier in Grassy Terrain: 297-351 (84.3 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
Bonus: Even if you run Night Slash / Dark Pulse Scarf Gren, it doesn't OHKO: 252 Atk Greninja Night Slash vs. 44 HP / 132 Def Spectrier: 230-272 (65.3 - 77.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO / 252 SpA Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 44 HP / 0 SpD Spectrier: 270-318 (76.7 - 90.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
These aren't at all OHKOs; infact, against the former two, Spectrier can take mild chip from hazard damage and STILL be able to deal with these two in the midgame. So what if your gameplan is just these, and you're looking for a way to offensively check Spectrier to the point where it becomes revenge killable? Unhealthy ideal, but I'll bite.
Common defensive pivots:
80 SpA Spectrier Never-Ending Nightmare (160 BP) vs. 248 HP / 64+ SpD Tapu Fini: 174-205 (50.7 - 59.7%) -- 85.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
80 SpA Spectrier Never-Ending Nightmare (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 232+ SpD Ferrothorn: 166-196 (47.1 - 55.6%) -- 19.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
80 SpA Spectrier Never-Ending Nightmare (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable: 274-324 (69.5 - 82.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
80 SpA Spectrier Never-Ending Nightmare (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 176+ SpD Heatran: 186-219 (48.1 - 56.7%) -- 33.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
These are all mons that Spectrier should really never come in on, but the fact that it can and STILL breaks through them after a Nasty Plot is extremely scary as it means that proactive counterplay in itself isn't even enough to prevent Spectrier from getting a KO and getting at least half its bang for its buck, depending on how much you value the Z move.
Common offensive pivots:
80 SpA Spectrier Never-Ending Nightmare (160 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 304-358 (95.2 - 112.2%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
80 SpA Spectrier Never-Ending Nightmare (160 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Cinderace: 318-375 (105.6 - 124.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO* (Technically, this is a winning matchup for Cinderace with Sucker Punch.)
80 SpA Spectrier Never-Ending Nightmare (160 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Garchomp: 288-339 (80.6 - 94.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Roll to OHKO with max SpA.)
Even taking into account offensive pivots, the Z-move's pure revenge killing capabilities force out tons of Pokemon and force the opponent into playing a 50/50. So, it could be a 50/50 to completely lose your entire Pokemon, with a negative punish for the opponent if they get it wrong, likely with a stray Shadow Ball or Wisp incoming to their particular defensive soft-check. (Of course, if you set up a Nasty Plot, and they predict right, it's a negative punish for you, but given Spectrier's bulk it is easily capable of living this.
Post Z-move calcs:
No Nasty Plot, revenge kill:
+1 80 SpA Spectrier Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tapu Koko: 238-282 (84.6 - 100.3%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO (Risks a speed tie, roll, and a chance for Spectrier to be max SpA)
Nasty Plot + revenge kill:
+3 80 SpA Spectrier Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Greninja: 208-246 (72.9 - 86.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Max SpA risks a roll after Stealth Rock.)
+3 80 SpA Spectrier Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Weavile: 179-211 (63.7 - 75%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (Roll after Stealth Rock if max SpA) *Fix as noted by Senhorolho
+3 252 SpA Spectrier Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Bisharp: 237-279 (87.4 - 102.9%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO (This is a 50/50 on its own - a Sub play will block out Sucker Punch - this needs to be predicted 5 times, a 1/32 chance (assuming the play is truly a 50/50))
I'd like to mention that all of this is counterplay to a single set. A single set that Spectrier often deviates from, with Wisp variants being able to outright 1v1 some of these offensive checks. The mental gymnastics you need to bounce around to justify a do not ban from calcs alone is already extremely heavy. The next argument I wish to dismiss is the idea that a "stallbreaker" like Spectrier is healthy simply because it nerfs defensive counterplay:
Besides weakening these threats Spectrier also works as a great stallbreaker. Stall as it is right now, seems healthy. I do remember a point in the metagame during Gen 7 where stall was way too dominant, and it was basically impossible to top the ladder without using stall yourself and I really want to avoid such a situation occurring again. Again, I do think the existence of Spectrier helps balancing stall out to. This way we can make sure stall remains its role as a decent strat in general, but doesn’t become broken.
<- Use this guy if you're a stall user wanting to take out Spectrier. <- Also use this guy if you're looking for fog support and a decent check for Spectrier (thanks Jordy for reminding me this guy can be used on stall lmao)
Do you intend to believe that Spectrier forcing a 6-0 win against the majority of stalls unless they either use Tyranitar or Muk-Alola is healthy at ALL? Is near completely eliminating any validity stall has as a playstyle really worth it to you to the point where you'd include a horse that mind you, has 130 Speed and can happily outspeed most of the metagame (seriously, it's tied third for fastest viable Pokemon at the moment), really worth it? Stall has practically never been seen in tournaments since Spectrier became known as the threat it is right now, and I think the fact that an exceedingly fast mon that can completely demolish stall is unhealthy in and of its own. The Pokemon listed aren't even perfect counters - WispHex Spectrier can escape both of their Pursuits via either Substitute or simply burning them on the switch, making their practically engineered counter useless against any other tool the opponent can use. I really think the priorities here are a little messed up - completely invalidating stall without a decent opportunity cost (i.e: Calm Mind + Pain Split Magearna in SM has a really bad matchup against balances due to the common usage of Heatran, Ferrothorn & other Steels, and also has difficulties dealing with faster teams that put pressure on its low Speed, but it still lives on as a decent stallbreaker + the Z-move can heavily harm most targets) should NOT be an argument you come to when evaluating if a Pokemon is a broken presence or not.
Addennum: SM Stall was only a major factor in the early metagame, when Dugtrio was rampant and could eliminate most threats to stall without much of an issue. Stall effectively died down once Arena Trap as a whole was banned - infact, the rather breaker heavy metagame of SM means that stall is much harder to use than, say, ORAS, where the metagame's overall composition allowed for a few stalls to thrive in the post-gen metagame, even after Mega Sableye got banned.
Spectrier balances out some of the biggest threats in the current metagame like Slowbro or Latias. Slowbro for example can just come in and Teleport out on many of the most popular pokemon being around. With Spectrier being one of the Pokemon Slowbro actually has no chance to stand up against, Slowbros role is weakened to a point where I don’t view it as particularly unhealthy. I want to point out I do think Slowbro is the most banworthy Pokemon at the Moment and strengthening its role even more doesn’t seem like the best idea.
It still Teleports on Spectrier switches! The turn you're looking for with Spectrier is the first moment Slowbro can actually use Teleport - the two are practically untouchable when you put it this way. Now I understand what you mean by Pokemon that balance out the risks associated with defensive Pokemon, but here's the catch - there's multiple different methods you can still use to give Slowbro, and BlissBro as a whole, a big scare. A lot of the issues with Slowbro come in its issue of being unable to touch the mons that it supposedly pivots on - so the likes of Cinderace, Landorus-Therian, Mega Lopunny, etc are all capable of using the pressure that Slowbro's role demands its usage for to be pivoted on into a wallbreaker that can not only abuse Slowbro, but the entire team structure - most Special attackers fulfill this role, such as Tapu Koko, U-turn Ash Greninja, Tapu Lele, Gengar, Specs Kyurem... I could go on for quite a while listing the mons that BlissBro is heavily frustrated by, but not only is this a difficult argument to subscribe to (a broken checking another community determined broken is not generally healthy and should really result in both Pokemon being banned), it is incredibly thin in the evidence that it does provide that Spectrier would help the metagame become more skill-influenced.
As for Latias:
252 SpA Spectrier Never-Ending Nightmare (160 BP) vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Latias-Mega: 266-314 (73 - 86.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 0 SpA Latias-Mega Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Spectrier: 262-309 (76.8 - 90.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
It's worth noting that if you're not a bulky variant, even as a one-time check Spectrier can fail if Stealth Rock or another source of hazard damage is present. Not only does this avoid the context that Mega Latias can be used on balances that have to afford the Spectrier check, which would nullify its role as something that can take out Mega Latias, it also doesn't go into how partners of Spectrier can easily force the other decision for Spectrier teams - Spectrier itself works both ways for Mega Latias - the Wisp + Hex sets wear down good checks like Tyranitar and Heatran for Latias to then deal significant damage to these teams midgame. It's a pretty common core that shows that the offensive aspects of a Pokemon are double-sided - it might make another Pokemon balanced, but it might also break the same Pokemon if used together, effectively cancelling out the beneficial effect. As mentioned before however, a broken checks broken argument is very difficult to subscribe to, and should only really be used in emergency situations where further balancing of the metagame is unable to help the generation out - i.e, a broken Pokemon also has an excellent defensive role that if removed might break a few other Pokemon.
It's worth noting that I don't particularly see Slowbro as broken - you may want to speak to someone else about the negative effects of Slowbro on the metagame in their perspective. It can be agitating but I think there's enough offensive presence and general midgrounds in the metagame to nullify the effect of Future Sight enough against most teams that it becomes more of a useful balance breaking tool that can be played around given enough foresight of how the opponent can play (it requires four turns for the whole sequence to play out - use that to your advantage!)
Now I want to explain why I don’t think Spectrier actually provides to an unhealthy metagame.
I do think that the biggest reason for people believing Spectrier is broken is the unwillingness to adapt sets of specific Pokemon a little to deal with it better. Now I’ve seen people telling that a Pokemon apparently is broken, when you start to not play a generally optimal set just to make sure you can counter this particular pokemon. Then again, we also have people playing surprise Grass Knots, on Koko for example, just to counter Swampert/Gastrodon. A lot of HP Ice that you see exist solely to catch Landorus. And I played V-create over Searing Shot Victini aswell just to have a better Matchup vs. Chansey/Blissey. I do not think that this alone already makes a Pokemon broken. I would agree if people started to play things that have no use besides countering Spectrier. I remember for example when Naganadel in gen 7 was legal people started to play weird AV Tyranitar sets which didn’t serve any other purpose but stopping Naganadel. In Spectriers case its different though.
As I’ve already named Tyranitar, Tyranitar is a huge threat to Spectrier even with a set that is also perfectly useful vs. teams without Spectrier. Next we have Bisharp that can always come in and Sucker Punch, again a normal set and if you want to have even more against Spectrier you can even Pursuit Trap it. Now as I mentioned before, that is not the optimal set to play on Bisharp but then again Pursuit serves a larger purpose than just trapping Spectrier. Obviously both Bisharp and Tyranitar fear Will O Wisp. However even when being burned Pursuit still has a decent chance to OHKO when Spectrier switches out. So, the absolute worst that can happen when you misspredict Spectriers set is trading a burn vs. a kill.
Another Mon that I felt was completely missed out as a Spectrier counter is Shadow Ball Blissey. Yet again not the optimal set, but Shadow Ball can also be extremely helpful vs. Blacephalon and is not much worse than Seismic Toss in general, improving your Matchup vs. Kartana, Aegislash and Sableye. Weakening Blissey a little also has a balancing effect on the current metagame, where Blissey is pretty dominant. Lastly I also want to mention specially defensive Mandibuzz as a great counter with Foul Play. Both Blissey and Mandibuzz counter Spectrier entirely despite Spectriers set.
I’ve heard people claiming that Scarfers/Rillaboom don’t help against Spectrier being boosted and behind a sub. But I do want to point out that with Spectrier neither having the greatest bulk nor the greatest defensive typing its really difficult for anyone to even get boosted and behind a sub. Making sure that doesn’t happen should be easy for any team, and if not, the team definitely lacks offensive pressure. Also this argument can be brought up against basically every Pokemon that sets up.
This is the last part of this post, and something I wish to split up into three parts:
1) Spectrier is "not broken" because the metagame has not had enough time to adapt to it.
Usually, once a suspect is given out, the metagame has often had enough time to adapt to it, and in this case, the majority of the community expressed heavy distress towards Spectrier's presence and thus a suspect test was put out. Surprise adaptations aren't really massively influencing Spectrier's ability to be broken - throughout most of this reply I have talked about Ghostium Z only, only noting how the other sets (Hex + Wisp, SubDisable) are capable of breaking past the threats noted here - they might struggle if not at full health, but the severely crippling that Spectrier does to these teams is already enough for a teammate to sweep in. However, this doesn't bother me too much, as it's just a statement of how adaptation works. What does bother me a lot is THIS quote:
I remember for example when Naganadel in gen 7 was legal people started to play weird AV Tyranitar sets which didn’t serve any other purpose but stopping Naganadel. In Spectriers case its different though.
There are two major differences that I would like to point out. In Generation 7, Naganadel was quickbanned, not suspected - it only took 5 days before the council and the community practically unanimously decided that Naganadel was broken and needed to be removed quickly for just how centralizing it was. This is a suspect, and of something that a fair amount of players had actually determined was quickban worthy in the discord - despite that, the formality of the suspect process is not something that should be evaded, and the sheer fact that Spectrier was so slept on is probably what caused this suspect to happen. Two, AV Tyranitar and SpD Heatran were actually great role compressors at the time that could beat Mega Alakazam and a lot of the Psychic & Fairy types that were in the metagame. The only reason they were used was because they actually did something aside from countering Naganadel, and I believe that with Tyranitar & Shadow Ball (Psywave too, but only I use that) Blissey being the only true counters with actual roles outside of a specific niche, Spectrier actually fits in this category. But regardless, a quickban of the past should not influence your vote on Spectrier.
2) Counterplay to Spectrier is limited, but "large enough" that Spectrier is balanced.
I mentioned counterplay in the first tab to Tyranitar and Bisharp (Bisharp is a 1/32 chance against Sub sets, and is remotely likely to win if vs WispHex). But lets look at Blissey for a moment, something that should be a counter, right?
So, after this post was put down, a user going by the name of cityscapes actually pointed out that the 1/32 chance is a 1/5 chance if the game is visualized properly. It is technically a choice of "which sub will they click Sucker Punch on" - each sub is a door, and the 5th turn is a door if all 4 are predicted. However, beyond this, there is also a game that the Spectrier can play at the end of this sequence - a prediction of a turn to knock: i.e a 9-door problem, where 1-8 are potential sucker punches and the 9th is an obvious Knock Off. This makes the probability 1/5 * 8/9 for the Bisharp to win, leaving it at 8/45 chance, instead of 1/32. There is actually an even slimmer chance for Hex, but it is definitely larger than 1/32 - however, it is a little difficult to calculate.
Spectrier @ Leftovers
Ability: Grim Neigh
EVs: any HP larger than 44 / remainder Def + SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Hex
- Will-O-Wisp
- Calm Mind
- Substitute
0 SpA Blissey Shadow Ball vs. +1 44 HP / 0 SpD Spectrier: 74-88 (21 - 25%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Blissey Shadow Ball vs. +6 44 HP / 0 SpD Spectrier: 28-34 (7.9 - 9.6%) -- possibly the worst move ever
No, this is not a counter. Blissey actually loses to SubCM Spectrier by loss of PP - Shadow Ball simply does not have enough PP to be able to continually break Spectrier's substitutes, and eventually, Blissey will only be left with Teleport PP, leaving the gates wide open for Spectrier to lock and aim for Blissey's team when it predicts it to switch out.
Believe it or not, this is where I got the idea for using Spectrier in the first place - prior to this game, and the following games involving Pannuracotta, Spectrier was actually nowhere to be seen in tournaments. But the very fact that a Spectrier could actually muscle through a Mandibuzz simply because it's bulky enough to just take little from Foul Play already alarmed me quite a bit. So I think I can debunk that Mandibuzz isn't really a counter - but just to be sure:
Ghost Z:
+4 80 SpA Spectrier Never-Ending Nightmare (160 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Mandibuzz: 281-331 (66.4 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+4 80 SpA Spectrier Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Mandibuzz: 141-166 (33.3 - 39.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0- Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 44 HP / 132 Def Spectrier: 162-192 (46 - 54.5%) -- 50% chance to 2HKO
Wisp + Hex:
0- Atk burned Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 44 HP / 132 Def Spectrier: 81-96 (23 - 27.2%) -- 51.2% chance to 4HKO
+4 80 SpA Spectrier Hex (130 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Mandibuzz: 228-269 (53.9 - 63.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after burn damage
...yeah, Mandibuzz is extremely shaky at best. Sorry.
3) Spectrier can't get behind a Substitute, so it is easy to revenge kill
Blissey Seismic Toss vs. Spectrier: 0-0 (0 - 0%) -- possibly the worst move ever
0 SpA Toxapex Scald vs. 44 HP / 0 SpD Spectrier: 63-75 (17.8 - 21.3%) -- possible 5HKO
0 SpA Slowbro Ice Beam vs. 44 HP / 0 SpD Spectrier: 79-93 (22.4 - 26.4%) -- 16% chance to 4HKO
(if Slowbro decides to stay in, predicting Substitute) 0 SpA Slowbro Scald vs. +1 44 HP / 0 SpD Spectrier: 69-82 (19.6 - 23.2%) -- possible 5HKO
0 Atk burned Corviknight Brave Bird vs. 44 HP / 132 Def Spectrier: 72-85 (20.4 - 24.1%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. +1 44 HP / 0 SpD Spectrier: 79-94 (22.4 - 26.7%) -- 25.9% chance to 4HKO
lol
I don't think I need to say anything else regarding this one, no matter how you interpret this one, the fact that it can substitute on multiple common defensive Pokemon is already telling of how this is just flat-out wrong. Yet again, the amount of mental gymnastics is just way too high.
And so, to conclude, the argument shown here has practically 0 substance. At all. It is so difficult to justify mentally that you might as well just pick random letters out of a hat to describe your argument and it would probably still make more sense than this. Some no ban arguments are hidden deep within this, but as far as I can tell on a brisk through nobody would be able to tell if you're actually making an argument to not ban Spectrier or are just listing ways to counterplay it. I don't know why I spent 2 hours writing this post but I hope you enjoy it.
Ok Shadow Ball is not the move that causes this. The move you're looking for is Psywave, which is the move that is incompatible with Natural Cure. The real reason we dont use shadow ball is that it makes you so incredibly passive without Seismic Toss or one of the status moves.
Even if there is no need to bring new arguments against spectrier, since most people already want it banned, I wanted to point out that it is really easy to snipe the anti-spectrier counterplay in the builder.
The idea is pretty simple: since most teams don't have any choices outside of hydreigon and mega ttar, any smart builds around spectrier will include a gameplan to invalidate those checks, making spectrier impossible to check.
Why is it bad? Every team built around an offensive mon should be built that way right?
Well, in spectrier case, since you only have two checks to care about, you don't have to worry much about role compression issues, and then you can easily include a gameplan for every common spectrier countermeasures in your team.
Here, spectrier's gameplan is really simple: statuing the hydreigon, and then spectrier just wins. The team had toxic tran to lure Hydreigon (since it is the only switch in to Heatran in the opposing team), but pex immediately got a burn on hydreigon. Even if hydreigon was almost at full health (94%), the burn was enough to let spectrier take it out turn 8, with the combination of a +2 hex and +1 Z move.
Keep in mind that this is just an example. There are probably a billion other ways to take out ttar/drei/SBall bliss/muk alola. Spectrier can run himself normalium Z and groundium Z to deal with drei and ttar, u turn gren to lure hydreigon and chunk it enough to let spectrier go crazy, tspikes, mega latias to overwhelm ttar mega, etc etc...
TL;DR: There are too few countermeasures to spectrier, and there are a LOT of anti-anti-spectrier tactics available. Even if you bring a dedicated counter to spectrier, you still can lose to it because how easy it is to snipe the spectrier countermeasures in the builder.
That's why i'm going to vote BAN.
I vote not ban, because it has poor coverage and as long as Urshifu Single Strike is in OU, the threat will be contained. Besides, I can hardly believe that Spectrier can stay in ubers. There is already Calyrex-Shadow in the tier, and unlike the Groudon / Primal-Groudon, Kyogre / Primal-Kyogre and Rayquaza / Mega-Rayquaza cases, Specter isn't a big enough threat to be in the ubers alongside its improved form.
Atleast try to hide the fact that you don't play this metagame. Urshifu-S is not legal in this tier. Other than that, we do not care about where Spectrier would stand in another metagame if it were to get banned. It is not relevant.
I encourage anyone to share their thoughts, but posts like this are of horrible quality and significantly lower the quality of discussion in this thread and, in fact, actively harm it. Atleast make sure that you know the metagame and use arguments that confer with the tiering policy. This is the only time I'll respond to a post like this. They will be deleted in the future.
Just a quick mention, this comes from the 4th calc wall. Just wanna say this roll already involves max SpA, so it's a roll after stealth rock unless you're doing modest, in which case you will get outsped and likely 1-shot by STAB (dark move)
Overall, I'm really trying to get reqs for this one, wanna thank Chazm for helping me with an amazing team, and I have a few thoughts on Spectrier. I am likely going to vote Ban, I wanna say Spectrier is not AS BROKEN as some people say, but yes it's definitely too much for the tier.
Sorry for my terrible english, I'm brazilian so yeah
1. It's a bit of what Magearna has in OU: If you mispredict the set, 16% of your team is gone
Normalium Z and Ghostium Z are the main sets used. Ghostium Z is superior, but Normalium Z is also pretty good.
Ghostium Z has a 240 Effective BP move in Never-Ending Nightmare, and it likes to utilize Substitute in predicted switches. Normal types stop Spectrier from hurting them at all, but most Normal types are Chansey and Blissey, which get nearly completely shut down by Taunt. Sometimes, you can even risk running another Shadow Ball just in case the Chansey or Blissey switch out, and possibly get another kill if you're already snowballed a bit. This means the only REAL counters to this set are Specially Defensive Dark types, because even frail Dark types will die to Never-Ending Nightmare.
Normalium Z has a 200 BP move in Breakneck Blitz, which can hit most things for neutral, except Rock, Steel, and Ghost. Spectrier obliterates other Ghost types with Shadow Ball, so it's really just Rock and Steel. The problem is: the only real thing that stops both sets is TTar. Bisharp also kinda does, but even a +1 Never-Ending Nightmare will KO, and Sucker Punch won't work if it's behind a Substitute. Aside of that, Bisharp is also not that good in the current metagame, so if you want defensive counterplay your only option is TTar.
If you think the spectrier is running Ghostium Z, you send your Hydreigon, and it uses Breakneck Blitz, your Hydreigon is dead. If you think it's running Normalium Z, you send your Magearna, and it's actually Ghostium Z, your Magearna is dead. After that, unless you're still in early game and you still have another thing that can stop it, it's gonna snowball down your team.
2.It's really fast and has a low amount of weaknesses, and it's not as frail as people sometimes think.
Let's name all the Revenge Killers we get for this thing. Transformed Ash-Greninja, Tyranitar are the only REALLY effective ones. Weavile and Hydreigon will do if the Z-Move has already been used, the latter also working against still active Ghostium Z, and an honorable mention goes to M-Gyara but if it's chipped with Stealth Rock before going mega then +2 Never-Ending Nightmare has around a 50% chance to OHKO and +1 Breakneck Blitz is an immediate OHKO. That's actually a decent amount of options, but they can't switch into Spectrier and they're mostly not ideal in the meta, which means it would normally cost you two slots to take down the spectrier: 1 from the revenge killer, and another one from the mon you had to sacrifice. Having to lose 2, or at least 1 mon to revenge kill a single thing is WAY. TOO. MUCH.
Overall, Spectrier is not AS BROKEN as people say, as there's a few options that can stop it, such as TTar and Hydreigon (after the Z-Move has been used), but it's still too restrictive and sometimes you even need to design 2 mons for it in case Spectrier surprises you with a different set and kills your main counter. Please Ban.
Just gonna keep it simple, this mon is unhealthly as hell and here's why.
1. Ghostly Neigh Violates The Eight Admendment
This thing has the capability to just run over teams like a god damn truck due to its amazing speed tier and stupidly powerful stabs. Due to its suprisngly solid bulk and power after a boost, it's extremely difficult to even revenge this Pokémon unless you have a dedicated "counter". At best, you may be able to force it out after a kill with Mega Lopunny depending on the Spectier varianrThis leads into my next point.
2. "only ghost moves lol"
Of course, due to its lacking coverage it's just a one trick pony that gets shut down by common mons such as Bl right? No. This things movepool, (mainly but not entirely Subsitute, Disable, Taunt, Wisp and Nasty Plot) gives it the means to just outright bs all of its so called checks. WispDisable lets it torture any would be trapper for Spectier and at its worse is crippling something and letting a teamate such as Mega Lati go stupid on a team. Oh, you predicted the Nasty Plot and go hard into your SpDef Hydreigon? Oops, it's Z Hyperbeam and you just lost off that one play. This mon has the potential to just oblierate any potential form of counterplay against it.
3. More Restricting than a Karen
This horse completely strangles the builder and it boils down to if it's most solid checks, Spdef Hydrei (loses to Z Hyper Beam), Band Ttar (loses to the wispdisable set), Mega Ttar (gets crippled by wispdisable), Shadow Ball Blissey (gets overwhelmed by the recently invented bulkier spectier set and calm mind sets), Mandibuzz and Umbreon (unviable in general) can attempt to hold back this murder machine praying that they don't run into a Spectier set that doesn't just obliterate them. In the event that you don't run one of these checks, you aren't winning that battle unless you are running HO which can (sometimes) manage to barely force Spectier out due to threats such as Kommo-o and Mega Gyarados.
4. Counter Arguments
I have yet to see a genuinely solid arguement for DNB, but the main ones I have seen were to "adapt" and that Spectier can force out titans such as Mega Lati and Slowbro; and so, it has a healthly presence in the meta. The issues with these arguments is pretty clear. Yes, a meta is supposed to naturally adapt to its surrondings, such as the surgance of Heavy Duty Boots leading to mons such as Blissey and Slowbro begin to become the face of balance and as such mons such as Hoopa and Rillaboom became more popular as they have ways to easily exploit these cores. Spectier and unhealthly Pokémon in general constrict this natural growth of the meta by forcing extremely specific styles of teams to deal with the threat at hand. Regarding the broken checks broken policy, while checking a Pokémon dominating a meta could be a part of a argument for something being healthly, it should not be the sole argument for keeping something in the tier.
5. Overall Thoughts
This mon is broken af, my reqs are almost done and for the reasons listed in my posts and the posts above, I am voting ban.
Just gonna keep it simple, this mon is unhealthly as hell and here's why.
1. Ghostly Neigh Violates The Eight Admendment
This thing has the capability to just run over teams like a god damn truck due to its amazing speed tier and stupidly powerful stabs. Due to its suprisngly solid bulk and power after a boost, it's extremely difficult to even revenge this Pokémon unless you have a dedicated "counter". At best, you may be able to force it out after a kill with Mega Lopunny depending on the Spectier varianrThis leads into my next point.
2. "only ghost moves lol"
Of course, due to its lacking coverage it's just a one trick pony that gets shut down by common mons such as Bl right? No. This things movepool, (mainly but not entirely Subsitute, Disable, Taunt, Wisp and Nasty Plot) gives it the means to just outright bs all of its so called checks. WispDisable lets it torture any would be trapper for Spectier and at its worse is crippling something and letting a teamate such as Mega Lati go stupid on a team. Oh, you predicted the Nasty Plot and go hard into your SpDef Hydreigon? Oops, it's Z Hyperbeam and you just lost off that one play. This mon has the potential to just oblierate any potential form of counterplay against it.
3. More Restricting than a Karen
This horse completely strangles the builder and it boils down to if it's most solid checks, Spdef Hydrei (loses to Z Hyper Beam), Band Ttar (loses to the wispdisable set), Mega Ttar (gets crippled by wispdisable), Shadow Ball Blissey (gets overwhelmed by the recently invented bulkier spectier set and calm mind sets), Mandibuzz and Umbreon (unviable in general) can attempt to hold back this murder machine praying that they don't run into a Spectier set that doesn't just obliterate them. In the event that you don't run one of these checks, you aren't winning that battle unless you are running HO which can (sometimes) manage to barely force Spectier out due to threats such as Kommo-o and Mega Gyarados.
4. Counter Arguments
I have yet to see a genuinely solid arguement for DNB, but the main ones I have seen were to "adapt" and that Spectier can force out titans such as Mega Lati and Slowbro; and so, it has a healthly presence in the meta. The issues with these arguments is pretty clear. Yes, a meta is supposed to naturally adapt to its surrondings, such as the surgance of Heavy Duty Boots leading to mons such as Blissey and Slowbro begin to become the face of balance and as such mons such as Hoopa and Rillaboom became more popular as they have ways to easily exploit these cores. Spectier and unhealthly Pokémon in general constrict this natural growth of the meta by forcing extremely specific styles of teams to deal with the threat at hand. Regarding the broken checks broken policy, while checking a Pokémon dominating a meta could be a part of a argument for something being healthly, it should not be the sole argument for keeping something in the tier.
5. Overall Thoughts
This mon is broken af, my reqs are almost done and for the reasons listed in my posts and the posts above, I am voting ban.
One thing I want to mention: his thing has the potential to break or at last cripple any of it's counters, but not all of it's counters. What I mean is that it's adjustable to kill any mon that can theorically check it, but it can only run 4 moves and therefore cannot cripple all of them at once. Still, it demands too much good prediction and it's extremely restrictive. The only way to 100% beat spectrier (assuming noone of your mons is dead) is by designing TWO counters at it, like ttar and hydreigon, but simply separating a third of your team for a single mon is just too much pressure.
Spectrier has been a dominant thing in the metagame and it really restricts team building.
This mon also forces the usage of hydra, mandibuzz, and mega ttar/reg ttar.
bUT spECtRiER hAs baD CovERaGE
Although, this mon has bad coverage it has the tools necessary to beat its checks (disable,cm,np,wisp,sub, taunt)
Lets talk about it's checks.
first of all mandibuzz loses to calm, wisp, sub, hex and even if using snarl it still loses because spectrier can just get to plus 6 and pp stall snarl.
Hydra gets pressured a lot while dealing with spectrier, it gets crippled by wisp and spectrier runs z-hyperbeam for it.
Ttar severely gets crippled as well as mega ttar by wisp, and ttar is getting chipped a crap ton during the game until its getting into spectrier range to kill.
Spectrier puts a huge ton of pressure to all of its checks
Like to mention, Spectrier is not frail 100/60/80 bulk is good/decent bulk.
The name of the thread in preparation of this suspect test perfectly captures my thoughts on Spectrier.
That's right. Spectrier absolutely needs to go.
On paper, Spectrier seems quite disappointing. I mean, its movepool is barren; it only has Shadow Ball, Dark Pulse, and Hyper Beam as standout attacking moves, and its Ghost typing should be a lot worse in a metagame with Pursuit than it actually is. However, the reality is quite different from how it may seem on paper. Spectrier forces one of 3 or 4 Pokemon on almost every team and has all the tools necessary to beat or significantly cripple them. This ultimately makes good teambuilding incredibly difficult and ridiculously unrewarding.
You could argue that Spectrier is commonly walled by the myriad of Normal types available to the National Dex metagame, but the reality of the matter is that the vast, vast majority of them are not viable. You could call this adaptation, but the fact that Spectrier would be forcing Pokemon like Mega Audino, Snorlax, and Porygon2 on teams is a much better example of unhealthy centralization than anything else. Passive Dark-types like Mandibuzz and Umbreon aren't even worth discussing and fall under this same umbrella.
Realistically, you are only using Mega Tyranitar, Tyranitar, Hydreigon, Zarude, or Shadow Ball Blissey to check Spectrier defensively. This is an incredibly small pool and the fact that Spectrier can still overwhelm Hydreigon and Zarude with Z-Hyper Beam, and that Shadow Ball Blissey has a bunch of other issues, make them not as reliable as one would hope. Tyranitar often runs Choice-locked sets and those can be completely discouraged by the option of Disable Spectrier. Mega Tyranitar and Tyranitar are also very prone to Will-O-Wisp variants, though those are not too common due to their lower sweeping potential. You simply have to use these Pokemon, or else Spectrier will just spiral out of control without fail.
There really is not much room for adaptation surrounding Spectrier. By using the aforementioned Normal-types, you are effectively crippling your team by using generally bad Pokemon, and the few checks that are genuinely viable all have their own struggles.
Ultimately, the fact that balance and bulky offense teams can hardly beat Spectrier consistently without falling into using Mega Tyranitar has quite the unhealthy effect on the metagame. Spectrier pushes the metagame into a state where matchup fishing is encouraged and where hyper offensive teams are at the peak of consistency. Granted that hyper offensive teams are pushed further by Cinderace. It is simply too hard to build a team with a decent defensive backbone without being weak to one or another prominent offensive threat. This is not an uncommon thing at all, but I believe that the fact that you have to dedicate an entire slot to primarily beating Spectrier with 1 of 5 Pokemon is what makes this such a jarring issue right now.
Spectrier's effect on the metagame is unhealthy; it has almost no checks and even has the tools available to beat some of its "good" checks. It makes it too hard to build good balance/bulky offensive teams that reward outplaying over having a good matchup and that is not a good thing. I will be voting to ban Spectrier.
I'm not gonna write a ton bc I'm busy, but I'm voting ban and I strongly advise you guys do too. You would think pursuit is a great answer to this mon, but with sub and will o wisp, it cripples physical attackers such as Tyranitar, which probably the "best answer". I truly hate seeing this thing on preview more than dragapult, and I really hope we get it out of here. I could put out some calcs, but like I said I'm crunched for time. Just think about the insane impact this horse has had on the meta, and not a good one. This is the most overcentralizing mon in the tier, and makes the tier very uncompetitive, especially with teambuilding already being so difficult even without it.
Isn't there also mega lopunny? Mega maw with sucker punch or even bisharp with sucker punch are goods answers. Even Mega scizor after setting up can be a threat. Rillaboom can one shot with grassy slide, rain teams beat it out, a lot of scarf users can one shot, after activating ash gren you can not only tank but outspeed as well as one shot, even dragonite can tank and kill. Spectrier isn't a mon you can just drop at any moment of the match and win, people who do that will quickly see it fall and the options to defeat it are nearly as limiting as ban make it out to be. I didn't even use spectrier for a large while and saw no problem with my balanced team. I will say that Spectrier does add a lot of pressure to defensive teams but I honestly don't see this as an issue, different gens have had a focus one certain teams. Gen 7 had a lot of stall heavy teams that were clearly in season with the introduction of celasteel and toxapex cores that dominated the meta but it was not impossible to defeat with good plays and teambuilding, just because people had to account for these mons or be walled when building teams doesn't mean its restrictive espeically since I have just mentioned multiple pokemon who can defeat spectrier before or even after it becomes a threat. This seems more of an issue with stall people being used to having enemy teams built around them and unable to adapt to the new meta, just because people can't easily snatch wins with stall anymore doesn't mean the meta should be shifted in their favor. If stall teams are simply not very viable this season then I don't why players have to make stall teams, this has been always about using strong pokemon who can do well in the meta game, obviously people are not gonna always use whatever they want and still expect wins. This ban only really caters to one playstyle while hurting others.
Isn't there also mega lopunny? Mega maw with sucker punch or even bisharp with sucker punch are goods answers. Even Mega scizor after setting up can be a threat. Rillaboom can one shot with grassy slide, rain teams beat it out, a lot of scarf users can one shot, after activating ash gren you can not only tank but outspeed as well as one shot, even dragonite can tank and kill. Spectrier isn't a mon you can just drop at any moment of the match and win, people who do that will quickly see it fall and the options to defeat it are nearly as limiting as ban make it out to be. I didn't even use spectrier for a large while and saw no problem with my balanced team. I will say that Spectrier does add a lot of pressure to defensive teams but I honestly don't see this as an issue, different gens have had a focus one certain teams. Gen 7 had a lot of stall heavy teams that were clearly in season with the introduction of celasteel and toxapex cores that dominated the meta but it was not impossible to defeat with good plays and teambuilding, just because people had to account for these mons or be walled when building teams doesn't mean its restrictive espeically since I have just mentioned multiple pokemon who can defeat spectrier before or even after it becomes a threat. This seems more of an issue with stall people being used to having enemy teams built around them and unable to adapt to the new meta, just because people can't easily snatch wins with stall anymore doesn't mean the meta should be shifted in their favor. If stall teams are simply not very viable this season then I don't why players have to make stall teams, this has been always about using strong pokemon who can do well in the meta game, obviously people are not gonna always use whatever they want and still expect wins. This ban only really caters to one playstyle while hurting others.
Sucker Punch just gets screwed by incredibly common Substitute variants
Mega Lopunny can outpace it but gets wisped if it's behind a sub and is crippled. Same with rilla. It can defeat a lot of offensive counterplay with SubWisp pretty much. And a Pokemon doesn't have to be an instant win button to be broken. The problem is that it's not JUST good against stall, it's good against balance,bulky offense and can potentially really mess up some HO builds.
Sucker Punch just gets screwed by incredibly common Substitute variants
Mega Lopunny can outpace it but gets wisped if it's behind a sub and is crippled. Same with rilla. It can defeat a lot of offensive counterplay with SubWisp pretty much. And a Pokemon doesn't have to be an instant win button to be broken. The problem is that it's not JUST good against stall, it's good against balance,bulky offense and can potentially really mess up some HO builds.
This all built on the assumption that you're allowing spectrier to set up in the first place. My point previously is that Spectrier is pressured by a lot of mons that keep it from setting up and can only really get off the ground mid-late game. Setting up sub is a big risk for spectrier if the predicted switch fails and it ends up being in a loop of constantly being attack. Even with wisp, it will still have to eat some hits when simply cannot a lot of the time. If you do not have any mons that can pressure not only spectrier but other mons who can set up to become a threat then that is an oversight in team making. Of course when you give a situation where spectrier is clearly in the advantage then it will have a chance to win but most good players will know how to deal with it before it becomes too much of a threat. There are also more checks and counters then I listed off such as vest Mage. I don't come around list of like five pokemon and have people believe that is the only possible answers. Its clearly just a dishonest portrayal of the actual situation. I believe as it stands now, Spectrier shouldn't be banned. Many team types can come prepared ande deal with it using smart plays.
This all built on the assumption that you're allowing spectrier to set up in the first place. My point previously is that Spectrier is pressured by a lot of mons that keep it from setting up and can only really get off the ground mid-late game. Setting up sub is a big risk for spectrier if the predicted switch fails and it ends up being in a loop of constantly being attack. Even with wisp, it will still have to eat some hits when simply cannot a lot of the time. If you do not have any mons that can pressure not only spectrier but other mons who can set up to become a threat then that is an oversight in team making. Of course when you give a situation where spectrier is clearly in the advantage then it will have a chance to win but most good players will know how to deal with it before it becomes too much of a threat. There are also more checks and counters then I listed off such as vest Mage. I don't come around list of like five pokemon and have people believe that is the only possible answers. Its clearly just a dishonest portrayal of the actual situation. I believe as it stands now, Spectrier shouldn't be banned. Many team types can come prepared ande deal with it using smart plays.
First of all " Setting up sub is a big risk for spectrier if the predicted switch fails and it ends up being in a loop of constantly being attack." Spectrier forces a lot out due to its ability and threatening to snowball, its speed tier allows it to set sub first and scout for the switch.
The second point I would like to address is "There are also more checks and counters then I listed off such as vest Mage" Av mage isnt very viable due to its relative passivity and due to the fact that it gets chipped quite easily
The final point I would like to address is ur sucker punch point. This point is a bit strange, since all these mons are quite situational as they all lose if spect is behind a sub bar mlop, which still can lose if spect is normalium, and can get crippled by wow.
<- Use this guy if you're a stall user wanting to take out Spectrier.
<- Also use this guy if you're looking for fog support and a decent check for Spectrier (thanks Jordy for reminding me this guy can be used on stall lmao)
