Resource SS OU DLC2 Viability Ranking Thread [SEE: Page 105, Post 2618]

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I have a question: why is :zeraora: ranked in the A- tier but its actual ranking is in UU?
Viability =/= Tier. Even though Zeraora isn't OU its ability to work on many OU teams and have a good matchup against many of the top OU mons makes it a very viable mon in OU. Also I'm 90% sure that Zeraora will move up to OU in the next tier shift.

Edit:Lol me and finch posted at the same time with almost the exact same opening sentence.
 
Viability =/= Tier. Even though Zeraora isn't OU its ability to work on many OU teams and have a good matchup against many of the top OU mons makes it a very viable mon in OU. Also I'm 90% sure that Zeraora will move up to OU in the next tier shift.

Edit:Lol me and finch posted at the same time with almost the exact same opening sentence.
tiering is confusion, yeah i do agree that it will move back into OU
 

viet noa

eating neopronoun pizza at little xe/xyrs
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first of all: thank you so much to finch & everyone else for all the hard work!! i really appreciate all the work put in to make these viability rankings so fun to read/look at/discuss :)

second of all: for me personally, here’s some minor changes i think would make sense

:garchomp: up to S
i think garchomp is a complete beast, where we’re talking about offensive sweeping or defensive setting. there’s the swords dance + scale shot set that can win games in so many situations, but we all know about just how strong of a set that is. i think the mixed wallbreaker set, the offensive stealth rocks set, the tankchomp set, all have their own use and viability. overall, garchomp’s decent versatility alongside just how powerful his sd + ss set is, makes it an s tier pokémon in my eyes.

:tyranitar: down to B+
i understand that tyranitar has more utility than i gave it credit for. being able to set up sand is a luxury, alongside stealth rocks and a potential twave. i also understand that its two worst enemies, cinderace and magearna, both got banned. with that being said, it’s still difficult for me to see tyranitar being a pokémon in a tier. naturally it has a lot of bulk, but unfortunately its lack of recovery hurts it more than it should. with the stealth rocks set intended on being defensive, it has far worse longevity than other stealth rock setters. furthermore, there’s little to nothing it can do to the prominent ground types in the tier, such as garchomp killing it with eq & hippowdon wearing it down with toxic. while i do believe it’s solid, and i could be wrong by saying it’s only B+, ultimately i think that it doesn’t have the longevity and utility to make it an a tier pokémon.
 
:garchomp: A+ > S: Agree. I don't think this is quite in par with Landorus-T yet, and I can definetly see Chomp being either A+ or S, but I really feel this should rise. SD Scale Shot Garchomp is absolutely the scariest breaker in the tier; even something as bulky as Corviknight gets 2HKOed by Stone Edge, and even with -1 Defense the only priority moves that can revenge kill it are CB Grassy Glide from Rillaboom and Ice Shard. The Tankchomp set is also an excellent SR Setter that provides fundamental defense utility in checking Heatran and Sub SD with Sand Veil is simply infiruating.

:rillaboom: A > A+: Agree. People are slowly realizing how dangerous Rillaboom is. Most of Rillaboom's answers either get their boots knocked off and can't take repeated attacks, die to Superpower or are food to Magnezone. It's also insane how much it helps at keeping things in check, as priority Grassy Glide will revenge kill most things if you manage to get it in.

:kyurem: A- > A: Agree. So little teams are able to reliably switch into Kyurem currently. Blissey seems ok until you notice it actually gets 2HKOed by Focus Blast. Sub sets exploit the teams that rely on the fact that its choice locked. SpDef Clef seems a very good check but one freeze and it's dead. It's a massive threat in battle and A is definetly where it should be.

:tapu lele: A- > A: Agree. With Magearna gone, that's one less thing that can keep Lele in check. Little is safe from its combination of Psychic, Psyshock, Moonblast and Focus Blast. SpD Corviknight and Slowking can be annoying, but they do not enjoy taking a Specs Thunderbolt. It's a very potent breaker and I think A is a great placement for it.

:kartana: A- > A: Agree. Just like Rillaboom, Kartana has few really safe switch ins, as most of them get their boots knocked off and suddenly die to repeated hits. Band Kart and SD Kart are very dangerous mons with little switch ins that also provides important defensive utility for a team thanks to its good physical bulk and 4x Grass Resist, which is why I believe it should rise

:magnezone: B > B+: Agree. Hell, I'm gonna go one step further and say this should go up to A-. With Corviknight and Skarmory rising, so is Magnezone, as it suddenly makes pokémon like Rillaboom and Kartana much harder to check. The Specs set is also very powerful on its own and can help at breaking through the opponent's team. Very solid mon and def deserves A-.

:mandibuzz: A- > B+: Agree. I've been saying this even when Spectrier was in the tier; Mandibuzz does a lot of things, but it does few of them well. It does check Dragapult and provide Knock Off but that's about it. It's crippling reliance on boots means it will eventually fall to Rillaboom and Kartana, and with Cinderace gone that's one less mon it could potentially take on, although that matchup was also very shaky. A- still feels like it's way too high for this mon, although I don't think it should go to B for now.

:tyranitar: A- > B+: Agree. While I still think TTar is pretty good and its roles of checking Dragapult and providing sand are pretty good, I do agree that A- is too high of a place for it. It's mostly just a very passive wall that doesn't do much besides set rocks and sand and can be taken advantage of in multiple ways. I do think there's a lot of potential for offensive TTar sets, but for now A- is just not where it should be.

:excadrill: A- > B+: Disagree. I feel like Drill is pretty unexplored. I've experimented with an utility set having EQ/Toxic/Protect/Rapid Spin and it worked pretty well. Many teams really appreciate being able to remove the opponent's hazards without sacrificing your own, especially those that feature Spikes as an important mean of pressuring the opponent. This, along with the Sand Rush set being very scary to face, makes me think Drill is ok in A-.

:charizard: C- > UR: Agree. Zard is pretty much devoid of a niche rn. Use Specs/Scarf Eruption Heatran if you want a crazy powerful special breaker in sun that doesn't instantly crumble to Stealth Rock and can actually take a hit or two.

And now, my own nom:
:tangrowth: B+ > A-. Lately I've found myself just slapping Tangrowth onto pretty much any team and it's not hard to see why. The defensive utility it provides is very unique. It's one of the only pokémon that can reliably check Rillaboom or Kartana even when those are paired with Magnezone, as well as just being a very solid physical wall. Many things can't really switch in all that safely either due to the possibility of being put to sleep. Overall Tangrowth is a solid mon in this current meta and I believe it should rise to A-.
 
1614189671319.png
A > A+: Agree:
Rillaboom is a predominant force in the metagame with a powerful and consistent priority move. You are not a truly efficient sweeper in the SS metagame if you are knocked out by 1 hit by Grassy Glide, and that even includes Pokémon that take neutral damage to Grass, such as Excadrill (252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Excadrill in Grassy Terrain: 357-421 (98.8 - 116.6%)). It also has U-Turn and Knock Off for momentum and support.
In addition to its notorious revenge kill capability, it is a powerful wallbreaker / lategame sweeper, thanks to Swords Dance, High Horsepower, Superpower and the aforementioned Knock Off. Still being able to run Itemless / Grassy Seed + Acrobatics to deal decent damage against Grass-types like Tangrowth (+2 252+ Atk Rillaboom Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 316-372 (78.2 - 92%)). The pure Grass-type also gives it the advantage of not being 4x weak to Poison, like Tapu Bulu. His ability not only strengthens his Grass moves, but also supports several teammates, such as Grassy Seed Hawlucha, and maximizing Suicune / Heatran recovery who are dependent on Leftovers.
Obviously Rillaboom also has its flaws, such as relying on contact moves and lack of coverage against Flying-types, however I believe that its qualities make it a metagame definition worthy of A +.
 

pulsar512b

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I have a question: why is :zeraora: ranked in the A- tier but its actual ranking is in UU?
In addition to what Finch and Bananers said, note that that tiering was based off of stats from almost a month ago. Huge metagame shifts have happened in that month.
 
:Kartana: ---> A

Kartana's stat distribution makes it a versatile sweeper. It's difficult to tell what set Kartana is running until it's already too late and has gotten a kill and an attack boost. Magearna and Cinderace leaving means that OU lost a bulky pokemon that could tank a hit from Kartana and hit it back on its paper-thin spdef side, and a pokemon that could outspeed non-scarf variants and threaten to OHKO with either HJK or Pyro Ball.

If Kartana is scarfed and timid, it outspeeds pretty much everything in the tier without setup. Pokemon that are naturally faster than Kartana tend to not run scarf since they're already so fast that they'd rather invest more into power. In Kartana's case, its Mega-Rayquaza beating base 181 attack is already so ridiculously high that you usually don't need any power boost to sweep through teams, so you might as well scarf it and outspeed the rest of the meta. Base 181 unboosted is higher than base 125 with a Life Orb. The pokemon with the next highest base attack, Landorus-T is 36 points lower, sitting at base 145.

Banded Kartana with a timid nature and max speed, is incredibly fast even without the scarf, and you will nuke anything that doesn't resist you. The Swords Dance set requires a turn of setup but allows it to switch moves and hit harder if it manages to setup. Not much else needs to be said about these two sets. I think the scarf set is the best set on Kartana, but the issue with counterplaying Kartana is that if you incorrectly assume that it has a scarf, you might try and switch in a pokemon that you think will tank it, only to watch as Kartana does 50% more than you expected or just sets up in your face.

Granted, Kartana does get walled pretty easily by bulky flying types like Zapdos, Corviknight and Mandibuzz, but most teams will only run 1 bulky flying type defogger and if that pokemon is out of the way, Buzzwole walls it too, but doesn't seem to be too common these days. Rillaboom does give it competition in the offensive grass type department, but Kartana's snowball potential combined with its ability to outspeed most of its opponents regardless of the move it clicks gives it a niche that Rillaboom can't quite fill.

I think that overall, Kartana is definitely better than other pokemon in the A- rank like Kyurem, Nidoking, Excadrill, and Zeraora. Those 4 pokemon are the other offensive sweepers of the A- rank. Kyurem is slower than Kartana and doesn't hit as hard. LO Nidoking hits harder than Scarfed Kartana, but is very slow and thus weak against fast, offensive teams. If scarfed, Nidoking's power is comparable to unboosted base 125, which is much weaker than Kartana's scarfed set. Excadrill requires sand support to be fast and also does not hit as hard as Kartana. And finally, Zeraora is just far weaker and slower than the scarfed set anyways. It's more versatile than all but Kyurem. It hits harder than all but Nidoking. And it's faster than all but Excadrill in sand. I know all of these comparisons are a bit apples to oranges since they all fill slightly different roles, but I think Kartana is just better than all of them and deserves to rise.

:ss/Kartana:


:Rillaboom: ---> A+

Rillaboom runs 2 good sets: the adamant CB set and the Jolly SD Grassy Seed/Life Orb set. To be honest, I don't even think the SD set is THAT good since Kartana is usually just better as a grass type Swords Dance sweeper considering its speed tier and the fact that grassy terrain runs out and that you'll waste 1 terrain turn to setup. Also if the opponent resists grass, then you might not outspeed them anyways, even in terrain. But it's definitely an option to catch the opponent by surprise.

Rillaboom's CB set is what makes it truly amazing. Grassy Glide is bar none the best priority move in OU and it does absolutely ridiculous damage to anything that doesn't resist it. Calcs incoming:

Things it just kills:

252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro in Grassy Terrain: 548-648 (139 - 164.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs. -1 0 HP / 4 Def Garchomp in Grassy Terrain: 372-438 (104.2 - 122.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs. 96 HP / 0 Def Regieleki in Grassy Terrain: 412-486 (126.7 - 149.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar in Grassy Terrain: 440-518 (108.9 - 128.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Slowking-Galar: 408-480 (103.5 - 121.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Zeraora in Grassy Terrain: 300-354 (94.6 - 111.6%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Nidoking in Grassy Terrain: 295-348 (97.3 - 114.8%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Excadrill in Grassy Terrain: 357-421 (98.8 - 116.6%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
This is the one that surprises me the most. Just straight up OHKOs sand sweeper drill. WITH. A. NEUTRAL. PRIORITY. MOVE!!!

Things it can 2HKO and potentially OHKO late game with just Grassy Glide:

252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios in Grassy Terrain: 143-168 (47.5 - 55.8%) -- 81.6% chance to 2HKO

-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs. 252 HP / 12 Def Landorus-Therian in Grassy Terrain: 171-202 (44.7 - 52.8%) -- 26.6% chance to 2HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey in Grassy Terrain: 432-508 (60.5 - 71.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon in Grassy Terrain: 524-618 (124.7 - 147.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable in Grassy Terrain: 210-247 (53.2 - 62.6%) -- 80.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery and Grassy Terrain recovery

Trust me, there are a lot more calcs to be done with Rillaboom, but I think we all get the point. The only consistent counters to Rillaboom are bulky flying types, Kartana, Volcarona, and Buzzwole. (Side Note: Ferrothorn and Melmetal don't wall Superpower variants). But even these pokemon don't appreciate a knock off, especially if they're running HDB in the case of the bulky flyers or Volc. Alternatively, Rillaboom can just uturn out and allow the player to pivot into an answer. I haven't even mentioned how Grassy Surge allows Rillaboom to setup pokemon such as Hawlucha, meaning trying to switch in a Volcarona, Buzzwole, or Kartana could mean letting Rillaboom uturn out into Hawlucha and threatening to sweep. Hawlucha isn't that great, but it pairs well with Rillaboom and takes out some of its answers.

Magearna being gone also helps Rillaboom since one of Rillaboom's biggest issues was that if it didn't carry uturn, a pivot by the opponent into Magearna to tank Rillaboom's hit would force Rillaboom to manually switch out and give Magearna free setup to win the game. Ace was a sort of fake answer to Rillaboom since it still took 49.8-58.8 from glide, but its ban still means that there's 1 less Pokemon in the tier that threatens to OHKO rillaboom while tanking a glide (albeit only once).

I know that my Kartana and Rillaboom posts sound very similar, and that's because they're similar pokemon. I thought I'd address them in consecutive posts because I think that both deserve to rise in light of the recent bans. Rillaboom is a bit better than Kartana overall, but both are great in this meta.

Monkey power!!!

:ss/Rillaboom:
 
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LBN

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Gonna do some rapidfire noms or echo other noms already made, or just things i feel are valid choices.

Firstly, Echoing other noms

B to B+ Aegislash is a fantastic pokemon on this metagame right now, being a premier killer with specs and while stopped rather well by blissey, mandibuzz n pex, those don't wanna come in on a predicted switch, while blissey can manage flash cannons if you catch a drop its in trouble, or you could nail CC on it, while still having the ability to run sneak as a nice way to finish off demons like chomp.

B+ to A- This pokemon is so good, being a fantastic check to Urshifu-Rapid, and Barraskewda makes it a fantastic pick to handle a couple of Rain's most dangerous, while still being so good at checking other things really well and forcing helmet chip on them like Scarf Lando-t (S rank btw) also checking pokemon like SD Driller as an added bonus. Oh did i forget to mention demon Rillaboom and kart? Well it does that practically the best at it in the game as its not able to just be removed by Magnezone.

C+ to C My baby i love you but why are you here. Torn-t does most of what togekiss wants to do better, and as much as i adore you you do not belong in the same tier as bisharp. Checking rillaboom at +2 is nice for a bird but dude at that point just use zapdos... atleast you have RU Domination.

Now for my own nom

A- to A Choice band Ttar is back again now that it doesnt need sp def lefties to check a certain Deviantart OC horse, and with magearna gone, buzzwole near worthless and hippo less common with Cinderace gone, this pokemon is ready to pull up and click buttons and do damage. Set variety beyond its 2 stabs are nice too, fire punch and ice punch and good tools, aswell as superpower, and earthquake. Of course its other sets are still solid, but CB tar has proven itself for me so so well that i can't help but feel like it's being undersold.

I have other thoughts on things that i feel are being undersold (Looking at you Victini) But i've never used it yet so i can't feel confident nomming it up to B+ with Aegislash just yet.
 
B to B+, hard agree.

considering that the 3 bans (cinderace, spectrier and magearna) are what helped it rise up the most, and the fact that tapu lele is getting used more in the metagame, aegislash will never fail to disappoint. Has plenty of potential because it can check specs lele, hard-sit and force out / sub on scarfed lele (if spdef subtoxic) and the fact that it has plenty of potential after said bans.

A to A+ agree

Incredibly dominant wallbreaker able to put a huge dents on a number of omnipresent meta pokemon. you are able to effectively dance around your defensive checks with prediction (ferrothorn and kartana lose to superpower), this monkey is eating the OU meta alive as one of the best wallbreakers, if not the #1 wallbreaker in the meta like an oversized banana and incredibly consistent.

Own nominations

B- to C+

Rain, rain go away. :psysly:

Largest echo chamber at this point, you are only going to be using this mon on rain (rarely). little to no breathing room or fittable on rain slots at least in my view.

thank you for reading
 
UP:

:rillaboom: A => A+ Grassy Glide is so fucking good. Banded Rillaboom is very hard to answer, with its high attack allowing it to tear through opposing teams. Banning Magearna and Cinderace removes two of its best checks. It has a pretty solid move pool outside of grassy glide as well, with knock of for utility U-turn for pivoting and high horsepower for bulky steel types.

:aegislash: B => A- The last 4 bans were all good for aegislash in some way. Urshifu and Cinderace checked it, Magearna outclassed it and Spectrier did both. They're all gone now. Aegislash works as a physical or special attacker, it has sub and swords dance for set up, and has access to priority in shadow sneak. I wouldn't be surprised if it returns to being a staple in the meta.

:heatran: A+ => S Heatran is one of the best pokemon in the tier. Its typing allows it to check a bunch of things, has great offensive and defensive utility and its great at killing stall. Magma Storm+Taunt+Toxic is a great way to shut down defensive mons. The less common scarf eruption variant can also be tough to deal with if you don't expect it.

:victini: B => B+ I feel like Victini is the closest thing we have to cinderace. It has a phenomenal move pool, can pivot with U-turn and can nuke a lot of things with V-create. It was outclassed in almost every way by cinderace, but now I think it is a very solid fire type pivot. Physical sets are probably better because of V-create and U-turn as well as bolt strike, but special attacking variants have blue flare and psychic/psyshock as well as coverage moves like shadow ball and energy ball.

DOWN:

:mandibuzz: A- => B+ The big reason for running mandibuzz was as a spectrier check. It still has use as a bulky defogger, but i'd take corviknight or zapdos over it any day.

:slowbro: :slowking: A => A- I love these two, but now that cinderace is gone, I think futureport will be a less prominent part of the meta. The amount of U-turn and Volt Switch users aren't doing these guys any favors either. The slowtwins are still great defensive mons and regen is one of the best abilities in the game, but they'll probably see a drop in usage.

:tapu fini: A- => B+ Fini's been declining ever since Urshifu got banned. Cinderace checks are no longer needed, and fini gets outclassed by other bulky water types.

:incineroar: C => UR spectrier's gone and Lando is LEAGUES better as an intimidate user.

:charizard: C- => UR I know usage =/= viability, but I can't remember the last time i've seen a charizard. It has a very small niche on sun teams, and sun teams have a very small niche in the meta.

:mantine: C => UR I honestly forgot this thing existed lmao. Gets shat on be every bulky water type and bird in the tier.
 

Leo

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:kyurem: - definitely belongs in the A rank now, not only does it benefit from Magearna and Cind leaving the tier but it's also been slowly gaining more and more usage with its Specs and Sub sets, Specs kills everything that isnt Blissey and with mons like Corv keeping hazards off forever vs Lando/Chomp/Hippo it's one of the most dangerous Choiced breakers now, Sub has to fish vs bulkier mons like Clefable but being able to afford boots and switching moves make up for it

:kartana: - with the offensive metagame shifting away from cind+gear voltturn Kart should get to shine as one of the most threatening mons to balance, SD has very few answers and in the right matchup Band can be a menace, not much else to it but a mon with this much potential shouldn't be this low, easily on par with the rest of the A rank

:reuniclus: - its rise to B- was a long time coming but it still feels underranked, before the bans it was already a largely underprepared for wincon that didn't love the amount of voltturn and Trick Magearna running the tier but still found its way onto teams, now with the bans there's no way it belongs among the likes of Nidoqueen and Barraskewda, a rise to B for the time being feels more appropiate tho B+ would be ideal in my eyes

:rillaboom: - what is this doing in A next to the Slowbros Hydra and Pult
1614266828928.png

should give u an idea of where it belongs. lol
 
:kyurem: - definitely belongs in the A rank now, not only does it benefit from Magearna and Cind leaving the tier but it's also been slowly gaining more and more usage with its Specs and Sub sets, Specs kills everything that isnt Blissey and with mons like Corv keeping hazards off forever vs Lando/Chomp/Hippo it's one of the most dangerous Choiced breakers now, Sub has to fish vs bulkier mons like Clefable but being able to afford boots and switching moves make up for it

:kartana: - with the offensive metagame shifting away from cind+gear voltturn Kart should get to shine as one of the most threatening mons to balance, SD has very few answers and in the right matchup Band can be a menace, not much else to it but a mon with this much potential shouldn't be this low, easily on par with the rest of the A rank

:reuniclus: - its rise to B- was a long time coming but it still feels underranked, before the bans it was already a largely underprepared for wincon that didn't love the amount of voltturn and Trick Magearna running the tier but still found its way onto teams, now with the bans there's no way it belongs among the likes of Nidoqueen and Barraskewda, a rise to B for the time being feels more appropiate tho B+ would be ideal in my eyes

:rillaboom: - what is this doing in A next to the Slowbros Hydra and Pult
View attachment 318770
should give u an idea of where it belongs. lol
Those are SPL stats, with Cinderace and Magearna everywhere and where the meta is more slow and defensive. Rillaboom is extremely splashable, being able to spam glide and knock off, and it belongs to A+.
 

ausma

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So, I've been playing a lot of the metagame since the QBs of Cinderace and Magearna; it's a ton of fun, and the teambuilder has been far more opened up. With that, though, comes with some pretty notable nominations. I'd like to run through the ones that have been made thus far.



Rillaboom: A to A+

100% agreed. I sorely underestimated just how opened up its Grassy Glides have been made with Magearna and Cinderace's bans, and I've been using Rillaboom quite a bit post-ban and have come to feel that Rillaboom has become one of the best wallbreakers and easily the best revenge killer in the tier. Not only is its Choice Band set a phenomenal option to easily and effectively revenge kill opponents with Grassy Glide, but its access to Knock Off and U-turn is, simply, incredible. U-turn allows for it to turn a Grassy Glide switch-in into a momentum opportunity, and Knock Off is an immensely spammable, safe option that punishes a majority of the tier's Grassy Glide switch-ins with a debilitating item removal, namely the HDB of Zapdos and Mandibuzz. Without Magearna running about, Grassy Glide has become less consequential and liable to forcing the Rillaboom user to stomach a Choice Specs-boosted attack, making its revenge killing/wallbreaking abilities more reliable.

It's not been mentioned yet, but its Swords Dance set has pretty much 0 switch-ins in the entire tier, and those that do switch into its Grassy Glides are cleanly blown asunder with Superpower or Knock Off; even so, +2 LO and terrain boosted Grassy Glides are unbelievably hard to switch into, as a majority of the tier's resists are easily 2hkod barring Mandibuzz, Skarmory, and Corviknight. Consequentially, this thing has created a near necessity to have a bulky Flying-type on teams, as revenge killing it is a really tall order. You are otherwise forced to either survive the onslaught of the Grassy Terrain, rely on a Choice lock, or have priority of your own (which, due to Rillaboom's solid natural bulk, isn't super reliable anyway). I feel as though its ability to pressure Pokemon so reliably and perform as a revenge killer and wallbreaker so consistently are attributes that are very worthy of A+.


Kyurem: A- to A

Definitely agreed. I predicted that this thing would become a premier wallbreaker in the tier, and I'm glad to say that I wasn't wrong. Its Freeze-Dry + Ice Beam + Draco Meteor + Earth Power move combination lacks a reliable switch-in in the tier barring Blissey, making it an incredibly effective special wallbreaker that can pierce open quite a few balance cores that overrely on Steel-types as their special backbone. Earth Power is a fairly popular option, but I also take quite a liking to Focus Blast, which can still blow Heatran/Melmetal away while also having the benefit of super effectively smashing Ferrothorn and 2hkoing Blissey after Stealth Rock (it actually does). Additionally, we've seen some usage of Choice Scarf, which creates for a pretty solid revenge killer since Kyurem's natural strength and powerful options can easily exploit the speed boost to make for a very legitimate endgame cleaner. Kyurem's main weaknesses come in its vulnerability to Stealth Rock limiting switch-ins and making it pressed for removal, since its offensive variants tend to want the utility of other items to optimize its wallbreaking/cleaning capabilities, and special walls like Blissey and Glowking can be pretty annoying. Though, make no mistake; Kyurem is legit.


Aegislash: B to A-

I somewhat agree here as well; not to A-, but to B+. Aegislash has grown stronger as a result of recent metagame trends (such as the lowered use of Mandibuzz) and the series of quickbans either limiting its competition or removing its checks. As a result, Aegislash as a mixed attacker, Special wallbreaker, and SD variant have started to pick up again, and they're the real deal. A majority of Shadow Ball switch-ins like Blissey or Mandibuzz utterly hate having to stomach a Close Combat or Flash Cannon, making it generally reliable at what it does. It also boasts a fairly relevant defensive typing in tandem with Stance Change, being able to take advantage of quite a few Pokemon for switch-in opportunities if it is healthy. Some examples include Tapu Lele, Mystical Fire-less Latios, Slowking-Galar, Earth Power-less Kyurem, and Heat Wave-less Tornadus-T (which is fairly common), also performing decently against some neutral targets like Tapu Koko. However, Stance Change is double-edged sword hehehehehehehehehe. There's no denying that its speed tier in tandem with its Blade form's severe bulk drop is really bad for a wallbreaker in the current meta, making it really easy to revenge kill or take advantage of for a momentum garnering opportunity. For this reason, if Aegislash wants to do work, it either has to take a hit beforehand, outspeed its target, or scare its opponents out. Aegislash, much like Melmetal, is really easy to chip down due to the way that it plays, and this is ultimately worsened by the overall loss in bulk, and worsened against the increased use of SpDef Corviknight.


Mandibuzz: A- to B+

This is a nomination I disagree with for sure. Although at a glance it grew worse due to it losing the niche of checking Spectrier, I'd actually argue Spectrier worsened its viability, as it was forced to pidgeonhole into dong options like dual Dark-type STABs and Whirlwind over the much more valuable U-turn, making it a major momentum sap and a sluggish Pokemon to use in general. However, its merits as a bulky Dark-type Defog user are still very valuable, and I would argue in a metagame where Rillaboom and Dragapult are rising to fame that it definitely holds a very distinct niche, especially now that it can make use of U-turn again and instead improve the flow of momentum. I still feel as though Corviknight is the superior bird due to its better matchups against Kyurem and Garchomp, but being a generally more reliable answer against Grass spam and also checking Dragapult much more reliably is something that I feel is very valid right now, especially because it can still deal with things like Excadrill and Kartana (Kartana with even more reliance due to resisting Knock Off and Foul Play sending it to the 4th dimension) with relative comfort.


Kartana: A- to A

Agreed
. Kartana in a metagame without Magearna to check it, Cinderace to reliably revenge kill it, and where Rillaboom is shining a lot more is monstrous. In my opinion, Grass spam is utterly phenomenal right now, and Kartana is a huge reason as to why that is (alongside Rillaboom, of course). Not only is its Choice Scarf set once again a great cleaner and form of speed control, but due to Cinderace no longer being everywhere to revenge kill it, its SD + Leaf Blade + Knock Off + Sacred Sword set has a field day on the tier, only really being able to be stopped with contact recoil, a faster revenge killer, Static, or a healthy Mandibuzz. Its physical bulk is also really great, as Pokemon like Landorus-T are pretty much fodder to it since it can't be easily picked off on the physical side without a super effective attack. The latter set's main drawback is its proneness to being revenge killed by a Choice Scarf user or a faster threat, since unlike Rillaboom, it can't just invalidate anything naturally faster than it with a STAB-boosted nuclear priority option. I'm not sure if I'd rather see it in A or A+, but I do think it deserves a rise for sure. A for now should be fine!

---

Now, here's a nomination of my own.

:ss/dragapult:
Dragapult
A
to A+

Dragapult, in my eyes, has become a premier form of speed control in the tier once again, making great use out of its speed and STABs to allow its classic Choice Specs/Hex sets to run through the metagame. Although it still prefers a +Speed nature due to the use of Tapu Koko, the fact it has the ability to outspeed literally any viable Pokemon except Zeraora in the tier and pivot around things so easily makes it incredibly powerful right now and stunningly easy to create an endgame with. It's really easy to lose to Dragapult if you aren't careful with your special walls, HP, and/or what Pokemon is being hit with a status (which it spreads with ease). For this reason, it's both a gigantic threat in the teambuilder and in execution, especially without Spectrier giving it such heavy competition. However, unlike Spectrier, it boasts a typing that is really great both offensively and defensively, and it is deceptively bulky with its range of resistances, too, making it both a great wallbreaker and a surprisingly effective offensive glue for teams in need of immediate speed and power. As an extra point in its favor, Dragapult also loves Magearna being gone, making it that much harder to deal with in a vacuum, and even more consistent at what it does.

Dragapult has become a staple on double Dragon-type cores, Volt-Turn, and Balanced Offense teams for a reason, and it's nothing to trifle with whatsoever. It is easily worth A+ in my eyes.
 

talah

from the river to the sea
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Staff Alumnusis a Past SPL Champion
:scizor: to A-: i've a HUGE advocate for this mon for a while now. its the best check to offensive grasses in the tier, probably the best CM clef stop in the tier, counters KYUREM, switches into lele better than any other viable steel besides corviknight, pivots into various stuff like aegislash if need be, etc etc. it sports nigh unparalleled defensive consistency while not giving up on momentum/offensive prowess like most other defensive pivots would through access to SD, knock off, and u-turn. bullet punch prio is also very useful in a tier with as limited good speed control as current SSOU. i think its an amazing pokemon and shouldn't be left out of the A ranks.

:dragapult: to A+: specs and boots are both consistently great offensive threats while also being some of the best speed control in the tier. not too much to say.
:slowbro: to A-/B+: slowbro lost a lot of its niche with cinderace leaving and i admittedly wasnt a big fan of it even w/ cinderace in the tier. its biggest niche over the other (better) defensive regen waters is taking on offensive lando/chomp/excadrill better but really that's about the extent of its usefulness. not a fan!
:blissey: to B+: its just not that good. strapped for moveslots, can't check most of the premier special attackers of the tier (like torn, koko) well at all. has a few niches but it's pretty middling overall.
:excadrill: to B+: it should be in the same rank as dracozolt (which i think is better fwiw). i don't think it's a particularly big winner or loser of the cinderace/magearna bans, bc while it does lose utility it gains a lot indirectly from its defensive checks becoming worse, so i think B+ is just where it should be.
:kartana: to A: synthesis sets and CB are both very potent. again not much else to say, this just makes sense.
:mandibuzz: to B+: its been on a steady decline since spectrier ban, and i think cinderace's ban did it in. i don't like it, it doesn't check anything very well, and electrics are better than ever.
:tangrowth: to B: not good
:aegislash: to B+: good
:amoonguss: to C+: very not good
:hawlucha: to C+: very not good
:kommo-o: to B-: middling
:moltres: to C+: bad
:moltres-galar: to C+: bad
:rotom-wash: to B+: decent atm, checks offensive landos well, checks torn ok-ish, checks tran ok-ish with heal bell support, checks zapdos quite well.
:suicune: to B-/C+: kinda bad
:tapu bulu: to B+: i really like both offensive SD sets and defensive SD sets (both running SD / horn leech / CC / stone edge), it has consistently useful application in a lot of builds and its good at both breaking and sponging hits up. big fan
:zarude: to B-: eeeeeeeeeeehhhh
:buzzwole: to C+: bad
 
Pelipper B- -> B+
Barraskweda B- -> B+

Wait wait wait, these guys are in the same tier as Hatterene and Nidoqueen? Rain has proven to be an amazing archtype in the hands of a good player, hence why these should rise. With the rise of Rillaboom you may think rain gets worse, well I look at it as free Torn-T food. Not to mention Ferrothorn walls any non fighting move Rillaboom. Really the only reason I'm not rating these higher is the rise of Zeraora, but I have found Garchomp to be solid on rain which is a pretty good Zeraora check (at least a non play rough zeraora check).

I see that peoples main argument for these not rising is that it only works on one archtype, but in my opinion, that shouldn't be criteria. If its good at what its supposed to do, its viable. Anyways, see you guys later I'll be back with more noms.
 
:excadrill: to B+: it should be in the same rank as dracozolt (which i think is better fwiw). i don't think it's a particularly big winner or loser of the cinderace/magearna bans, bc while it does lose utility it gains a lot indirectly from its defensive checks becoming worse, so i think B+ is just where it should be.
:kartana: to A: synthesis sets and CB are both very potent. again not much else to say, this just makes sense.
:excadrill: to B+ Agree . I'm a sand player but i have to accept the truth. I have been playing a lot this past few days and even if Slowbro is on the decline, other counters have been rising the last few days, especially Skarmory and Corviknight to deal with Grass-spam, and against them Excadrill is a sitting duck. It also has against the fact that Rillaboom is everywhere and Banded GG kills. It seems more simple for sand teams to support Dracozolt because it at least has the coverage to break through its checks and counters, and those C&C, which mainly are Ground-types can be dealt by a Grass-type like Rillaboom or Kartana without having to worry about weakening your own EQ as you do with Excadrill.

:kartana: to A Agree. Grass-types are going bonkers right now, and SD Kartana is menace. Also, its defensive checks can be deal easily. I agree with this nom.

talah i'm curious about your Scizor commentary. Can you share a spread or something to test it out? Thank you!
 

AM

is a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnusis a Past WCoP Champion
LCPL Champion
Lol I thought Kart was in A or higher already. Not sure about Rillaboom in A+ as much as people gassing it up right now (lot of people did this with Nidoking awhile back even if it's a good mon), everyone is packing Corviknight and meta is relatively in a pretty new stage. Its a good mon but saying it got much better kind of reach cause Ace and Mag were only problematic to it in a vacuum when accounting both Band/SD sets.
 
1614361193285.png
A-<A or A+
Now that Magearna and Cinderace or gone this thing is an absolute menace. It's practically unwallable. Stabs+ Focus Blast is ridiculous especially since 2 of lele's checks aren't common in the metagame(although they should be imo), leaving Corviknight or rare Slowking as it's only check. Considering how hard this thing hit's most thing are straight up just 2HKO'd or one-shot, reversing terrain for Koko and Rillaboom is always nice too. I honestly don't know why Koko is ranked higher even though it's fast and has momentum, Lele straight up is gotta be the best tapu imo. Nice typing, great ability, and massive breaking power. Overall with the 2 rabbits gone(one of them threaten's them out with se gs, while the other tanks it's stabs fairly.) It can go back to spamming stabs at peace. Even given a 95 base speed tier, and 115 base special defense it's still fast enough and tanky to live hits and fire off very powerful attacks.
1614361483784.png
C<B+
This may seem controversial but this is completely fair imo. I think Zam is also gonna go pretty bonkers w/ the bans, and it really actually is one of the few very threatening nasty plotters in the tier. It is placed at 120 speed had this thing only been any higher it would probably be even more threatening. Alakazam is just barely outsped by Tornadus and it's attacking moves and power is pretty sky high. I want to note sense HO is really getting good rn I feel that Expanding Force Terraint teams, and sash breaker on other HO is really strong. I also wanna mention a really nice plus is that this mon is able to just about fully invalidate pex with magic guard, setup on it(despite haze), and recover for free. Although Zam is frail with a limitedly defensive typing, and coverage, it is still something to fear, at least on HO teams. Due to HO being so great and it being able to fit on those types of builds I think this should rise. However I can't rise it as high as lele, since it's frailer, and doesen't have an extra fairy typing, the ability to setup terrain and a bit more. But overall this thing is getting better imo, and it deserves this raise.
1614362096368.png
B-<A-
For the first couple of weeks after it's brother was banned I thought it was eh...now with the rise of future port spam, I think this thing is near it's peak.
A lot of things are gone from the meta and a lot of tools for this are open. Teleport, Future Sight, HO...Without Pex, Amoonguss, Tangrowth, and Slowbro this thing can wreck havoc. Not to mention the former 3 or vulnerable to future sight, and the latter is hit super effectively by U-turn and unless your helmet it's able to open it's way to success throughout that momentum. Urshifu-R really benefits from partners like Kyurem as well which can poke a huge hole through regen for while it in return opens up for an effective Blissey and Ttar counter. Other than Band I also think that BU LO and Protective Pads also have a true place in the meta. Avoiding helmet or boosting is really great. Overall Solid between stabs, u-turn and future sight support and can tear a lot of bulkier balances. overall loving this thing
 

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Thunder Pwoell

Banned deucer.
why is kartana ranked A-? this mon is highkey GARABE. BASURA. TRASH. I do not understand why you weirdos try this shit every generation. In fact it's even worse now bc of the prevelance of mandi, so yall dont have that excuse anymore of saying that only I use it; which was a non excuse anyway. It lacks in power, easily is taken out and besides band is overall meh. so many answers for it; truly has no reason to be on that stage. I recommend b-/c+ for it

mew is also ranked FAR too low but ill get to that later. also mandibuzz Is ranked too high imo
 
why is kartana ranked A-? this mon is highkey GARABE. BASURA. TRASH. I do not understand why you weirdos try this shit every generation. In fact it's even worse now bc of the prevelance of mandi, so yall dont have that excuse anymore of saying that only I use it; which was a non excuse anyway. It lacks in power, easily is taken out and besides band is overall meh. so many answers for it; truly has no reason to be on that stage. I recommend b-/c+ for it

mew is also ranked FAR too low but ill get to that later. also mandibuzz Is ranked too high imo
Lacks in power... 180 base attack with a good speed stat. No this is definitely deserved spot. Corviknight spam is going to hurt it but I think it should stay where it is at.
 

Thunder Pwoell

Banned deucer.
Lacks in power... 180 base attack with a good speed stat. No this is definitely deserved spot. Corviknight spam is going to hurt it but I think it should stay where it is at.
from me: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...y-ranking-thread.3621329/page-34#post-7725736
Thunder Pwoell said:
Kartana - > B. The set people use is stupid, Stop using scarf kartana imo. It's weak. The best set is z. Anway idk why (mob mentality) people have been hyping this up but it needs to stop. As I have mentioned before this needs to oko or itll die. chansey can oko it with fire blast. This thing dies to an hp ice. And again, is walled by half of ou. Scarf is really only threatening extremely late game and with most teams being the same and carrying lucha /ash gren/ mage i dont see that doing much work.
not much has changed. stilled walled by half of ou, still only threatening extremely late game
 
why is kartana ranked A-? this mon is highkey GARABE. BASURA. TRASH. I do not understand why you weirdos try this shit every generation. In fact it's even worse now bc of the prevelance of mandi, so yall dont have that excuse anymore of saying that only I use it; which was a non excuse anyway. It lacks in power, easily is taken out and besides band is overall meh. so many answers for it; truly has no reason to be on that stage. I recommend b-/c+ for it

mew is also ranked FAR too low but ill get to that later. also mandibuzz Is ranked too high imo
Not sure if this is legit or trolling but I want to explain to you why some people believe Kart to be way better than what the current viability ranking represents. Kart was already an amazing breaker prior to the QB of the bunnies. CB and SD sets pairs nicely with popular threats like Pult and Slowbro. It provides teams with an excellent breaker that acts as a check to SD Lando, Hydreigon, Kyurem, Rilla, and other scary offensive threats while being able to sustain itself with SD + Synthesis. Mandi is slowly being overthrown by Torn and Corv as the king of defoggers which a Banded Kart with FS support can absolutely maul. Also why do you say a mon with 181 Atk “lacks power”?
 
from me: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...y-ranking-thread.3621329/page-34#post-7725736


not much has changed. stilled walled by half of ou, still only threatening extremely late game
That is just false. It's scarf variant is easily one of the best revenge killers in this tier thanks to outspeeding loads of stuff such as garchomp, scarf lele, +1 volcarona. And it most definitely doesnt "get walled by half the tier" If your feeling weird you could also ru aerial ace which decimates buzzwole. Knock off support is also amazing helping it beat down the birds(not the steel fliers) that beat it. Plus your past post is from a completely different meta so none of that really carries over.
 
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