Resource SS UU Crown Tundra Viability Ranking Thread

[romanji]

Yay noms have been posted, I’ll get a few more nominations in for myself.

to a+
Scizor doesn't really have the same oomf factor that it once had back during the Aegislash meta. Hell, it was only used twice in Snake semifinals, and wasn’t even used in finals or week 1 of SCL. Teams are simply prepped out the ass against this most of the time anyway. It's either that you have the wrong move (U-turn or Knock Off) on bulky SD sets, or have the 3 Attacks + Roost sets that are way too weak and can't effectively force progress and is more often then not just a U-turn bot.

to a+
Azelf absolutely shreds offensive cores like very little else can. Expert Belt sets can tear through any core, as switch-ins to Psychic and Flamethrower are all fearful of a coverage move like Energy Ball, Dazzling Gleam, or Knock Off. Mandibuzz dropping off of a cliff also helps it remove its biggest counter. Moreover, its Speed also keeps many already fast Pokemon like Keldeo, Zarude, and Cobalion, while the only relevant faster threats like Crobat and Noivern can't switch in either.

to b+
Lycanroc has been underrated by many as of late, including myself, but it definitely still has many of the great traits that it had before. Its 110 Speed lets it act as a wallbreaker that outspeeds Keldeo, Cobalion, Nihilego, and Thundurus-T. It's also strong enough to break past many defensive Pokemon like Slowking, Salamence, and Amoonguss with Stone Edge, while also making sure that a chipped Hippowdon can't come in on Close Combat, especially with Spikes layed down.

to b
The ice cream apologist is here to keep nominating Vanilluxe again (at least outside of the discord for once). Vanilluxe is the best "pure" special wallbreaker we have, especially with Cobalion overtaking Scizor as the primary Steel-type. Blizzard and Freeze-Dry become even more free to click, since nothing barring Chansey can switch in effectively. Hippowdon and the bulky Grass-types being everywhere is fantastic for it, while the hazard control isn't bad for it to find opportunities to switch in.

to b-
Mandibuzz doesn't really fit in the metagame anymore. With Cobalion being everywhere and being a wallbreaker that it can't touch and gives it completly free set-up. It really can't be an effective Defogger either since its matchup against hazard setters besides Excadrill is awful, and its matchup against most of the tier is rough. Knock Off users being everywhere doesn't help matters at all, as it's going to get overwhelmed way too easily.

to c+
Toxtricity, similarly to Vanilluxe, can break through most of the metagame since Boomburst + Overdrive has such amazing coverage throughout the tier. It can also mix and match its choice of item to take advantage of Hippowdon, like Silk Scarf to KO it with Boomburst or Air Balloon to troll it even harder, since it's immune to Toxic. It's speed tier is still rough and it is difficult to build with but is a big threat if not accounted for.

to ur
Trick Room teams are just incredibly inconsistent right now, since they already have to sacrifice 2 Pokemon for Healing Wish / Lunar Dance. There are also just too few turns for the sweepers to be used effectively as well, as when Trick Room is inactive, they end up becoming incredibly passive and can be taken advantage of by any semi-decent offensive team.

Now I'm listing a few discussion points listed from the rest of the VR team, happy discussions!

discussion points

to a
to a
to a
to a
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to a+
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to a-
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to b+
to b
to b-
to b+/a-
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to b
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to c
to ur
to ur

 

[JoeMama]

Yay noms have been posted, I’ll get a few more nominations in for myself.

to a+
Scizor doesn't really have the same oomf factor that it once had back during the Aegislash meta. Hell, it was only used twice in Snake semifinals, and wasn’t even used in finals or week 1 of SCL. Teams are simply prepped out the ass against this most of the time anyway. It's either that you have the wrong move (U-turn or Knock Off) on bulky SD sets, or have the 3 Attacks + Roost sets that are way too weak and can't effectively force progress and is more often then not just a U-turn bot.

to a+
Azelf absolutely shreds offensive cores like very little else can. Expert Belt sets can tear through any core, as switch-ins to Psychic and Flamethrower are all fearful of a coverage move like Energy Ball, Dazzling Gleam, or Knock Off. Mandibuzz dropping off of a cliff also helps it remove its biggest counter. Moreover, its Speed also keeps many already fast Pokemon like Keldeo, Zarude, and Cobalion, while the only relevant faster threats like Crobat and Noivern can't switch in either.

to b+
Lycanroc has been underrated by many as of late, including myself, but it definitely still has many of the great traits that it had before. Its 110 Speed lets it act as a wallbreaker that outspeeds Keldeo, Cobalion, Nihilego, and Thundurus-T. It's also strong enough to break past many defensive Pokemon like Slowking, Salamence, and Amoonguss with Stone Edge, while also making sure that a chipped Hippowdon can't come in on Close Combat, especially with Spikes layed down.

to b
The ice cream apologist is here to keep nominating Vanilluxe again (at least outside of the discord for once). Vanilluxe is the best "pure" special wallbreaker we have, especially with Cobalion overtaking Scizor as the primary Steel-type. Blizzard and Freeze-Dry become even more free to click, since nothing barring Chansey can switch in effectively. Hippowdon and the bulky Grass-types being everywhere is fantastic for it, while the hazard control isn't bad for it to find opportunities to switch in.

to b-
Mandibuzz doesn't really fit in the metagame anymore. With Cobalion being everywhere and being a wallbreaker that it can't touch and gives it completly free set-up. It really can't be an effective Defogger either since its matchup against hazard setters besides Excadrill is awful, and its matchup against most of the tier is rough. Knock Off users being everywhere doesn't help matters at all, as it's going to get overwhelmed way too easily.

to c+
Toxtricity, similarly to Vanilluxe, can break through most of the metagame since Boomburst + Overdrive has such amazing coverage throughout the tier. It can also mix and match its choice of item to take advantage of Hippowdon, like Silk Scarf to KO it with Boomburst or Air Balloon to troll it even harder, since it's immune to Toxic. It's speed tier is still rough and it is difficult to build with but is a big threat if not accounted for.

to ur
Trick Room teams are just incredibly inconsistent right now, since they already have to sacrifice 2 Pokemon for Healing Wish / Lunar Dance. There are also just too few turns for the sweepers to be used effectively as well, as when Trick Room is inactive, they end up becoming incredibly passive and can be taken advantage of by any semi-decent offensive team.

Now I'm listing a few discussion points listed from the rest of the VR team, happy discussions!

discussion points

to a
to a
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to a+
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to b
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to b+/a-
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to c
to ur
to ur

I agree with sun and I don't understand the steela drop, great on offense and defence (only walled by chansey). Also mandi should only drop to B if it does drop because walling zarude is pretty good and doing checking dhelmise and necrozma is pretty good utility.

 

[Sulo]

I agree with sun and I don't understand the steela drop, great on offense and defence (only walled by chansey). Also mandi should only drop to B if it does drop because walling zarude is pretty good and doing checking dhelmise and necrozma is pretty good utility.

There's honestly a lot more that checks Celesteela; both Rotoms, Rhyperior, Nihilego, Scarf Hydreigon, etc.

Anyways, I agree with dropping Mandibuzz to B- for the reasons listed above. Its defensive utility isn't exactly what we need right now with Pokemon like Cobalion and Tangrowth walling what it walls. It's still a pretty solid pivot that pairs well with literally any breaker but it's not something worth justifying at the moment.

 

[HydreigonTheChild]

-> B+

I do not believe its that good esp recently with skarm, steela, more tang usage, hippo being at the top of the meta, nihi going down in popularity, nidoqueen also becoming a popular ground, and it pretty much spins on nothing. Coba, hippo, nidoqueen being good rockers means its hard for it to get opportunities to spin on them. As a ground type you usually use mons such as nidoqueen, diggersby, hippo, swampert, mamoswine instead of it and as a steel scizor, coba, skarm and steela all do better than it. Its good if you want to compress steel + ground into one role and it does spin + rocks in certain MU's esp against togekiss, nihi, can do ok against non focus thundy-t. But generally I do not believe it is as good as it is especially when you have many better options than it

 

[JoeMama]

There's honestly a lot more that checks Celesteela; both Rotoms, Rhyperior, Nihilego, Scarf Hydreigon, etc.

Anyways, I agree with dropping Mandibuzz to B- for the reasons listed above. Its defensive utility isn't exactly what we need right now with Pokemon like Cobalion and Tangrowth walling what it walls. It's still a pretty solid pivot that pairs well with literally any breaker but it's not something worth justifying at the moment.

Rotom heat does nothing if Steela still has beam and air slash hax can find a way, the problem is that Chansey is the only real wall to steela. And yeah thinking about it tang is better against zarude anyways

 

[Sulo]

Rotom heat does nothing if Steela still has beam and air slash hax can find a way, the problem is that Chansey is the only real wall to steela. And yeah thinking about it tang is better against zarude anyways

You bait the Meteor Beam first. Also, factoring in hax would literally just invalidate Chansey as an answer.

 

[Celebiii]

to C

The Duck should never have been unranked in my opinon. It holds a valuable niche over Conk in its access to First Impression, which can patch up a team's weakness to Azelf where Conk would just falter. Outside of this, Sirfetch'd also notably has room for some variation in its moveset. It will always run Close Combat and First Impression, but can choose between Knock Off, Brave Bird, Leaf Blade, and even Facade if it fears status. Sirfetch'd can also use several items to good effect rather than being locked into (mostly) just one like Conk; Sirfetch'd can run its signature Leek, but can also experiment with options like Lum Berry, Choice Band, and maybe even Choice Scarf.

For a tournament replay using Sirfetch'd, check out my game vs. Raptor in UUSD.

 

[HydreigonTheChild]

Rotom heat does nothing if Steela still has beam and air slash hax can find a way, the problem is that Chansey is the only real wall to steela. And yeah thinking about it tang is better against zarude anyways

lol? i mean if steela doesnt burn beam then u have other potential great awnsers such as slowking, prim, raikou,nihilego, etc and usually burns it on the first turn after Auto cuz it has a shit time breaking through special walls and you can just bait it out by switching out, a 50/50 but i mean celesteela is not exactly breaking shit at +0

 

[Estarossa]

-> B+

I do not believe its that good esp recently with skarm, steela, more tang usage, hippo being at the top of the meta, nihi going down in popularity, nidoqueen also becoming a popular ground, and it pretty much spins on nothing. Coba, hippo, nidoqueen being good rockers means its hard for it to get opportunities to spin on them. As a ground type you usually use mons such as nidoqueen, diggersby, hippo, swampert, mamoswine instead of it and as a steel scizor, coba, skarm and steela all do better than it. Its good if you want to compress steel + ground into one role and it does spin + rocks in certain MU's esp against togekiss, nihi, can do ok against non focus thundy-t. But generally I do not believe it is as good as it is especially when you have many better options than it

While I personally agree that SD sets are really not that good in my eyes (some members of vr team seem to rate them very highly rn though), excadrill is arguably one of the best removers for certain BOs featuring rock weak pokemon in tier rn like vanilluxe and chandelure cause its one of the few that actually matches up excellently vs nihilego too. It does have defensive value as one of the only real nihilego counters too which is always good, pretty good check versus stuff like glowbro and rotoms too and not that easy to switch into outside of skarm/steela if its running toxic, can definitely force some progress often that way.

Magnet rise is a set you've entirely overlooked in this post which makes it a pretty potent spinner, beating nihilego anyway regardless (But fairly important cuase no other remover except flygon rly does this, mence can run eq but isnt a switch in and is slower so is just to catch on entry) but now 1v1ing hippo thanks to magnet rise (cobalion was always extremely careful about swapping in anyway). Its not a remover you'd necessarily be expecting to hard switch into hippowdon and 1v1 it, but the important factor is that hippo can never switch in and reset rocks versus you, so for more offensive teams this is really all you need to get the true value out of it as it can still spin on a fair amount of stuff, eg. nihilego, amoonguss, crobat or predicted switches from stuff like prim/glowbro.

Yes spin excadrill just lets skarm spike up, but the sort of teams where spin excadrill is a fantastic remover option to me are ones where you appreciate rocks being up far less than a single spike layer and can use that free spike to bring in your own deadly breakers like specs vanill/chandy. (Example team with magnet rise mole + vanilluxe - https://pokepast.es/e530f267ca6cd62a)

 

[JoeMama]

lol? i mean if steela doesnt burn beam then u have other potential great awnsers such as slowking, prim, raikou,nihilego, etc and usually burns it on the first turn after Auto cuz it has a shit time breaking through special walls and you can just bait it out by switching out, a 50/50 but i mean celesteela is not exactly breaking shit at +0

Could always finish off a weakened mon

 

[HydreigonTheChild]

While I personally agree that SD sets are really not that good in my eyes (some members of vr team seem to rate them very highly rn though), excadrill is arguably one of the best removers for certain BOs featuring rock weak pokemon in tier rn like vanilluxe and chandelure cause its one of the few that actually matches up excellently vs nihilego too. It does have defensive value as one of the only real nihilego counters too which is always good, pretty good check versus stuff like glowbro and rotoms too and not that easy to switch into outside of skarm/steela if its running toxic, can definitely force some progress often that way.

Magnet rise is a set you've entirely overlooked in this post which makes it a pretty potent spinner, beating nihilego anyway regardless (But fairly important cuase no other remover except flygon rly does this, mence can run eq but isnt a switch in and is slower so is just to catch on entry) but now 1v1ing hippo thanks to magnet rise (cobalion was always extremely careful about swapping in anyway). Its not a remover you'd necessarily be expecting to hard switch into hippowdon and 1v1 it, but the important factor is that hippo can never switch in and reset rocks versus you, so for more offensive teams this is really all you need to get the true value out of it as it can still spin on a fair amount of stuff, eg. nihilego, amoonguss, crobat or predicted switches from stuff like prim/glowbro.

Yes spin excadrill just lets skarm spike up, but the sort of teams where spin excadrill is a fantastic remover option to me are ones where you appreciate rocks being up far less than a single spike layer and can use that free spike to bring in your own deadly breakers like specs vanill/chandy. (Example team with magnet rise mole + vanilluxe - https://pokepast.es/e530f267ca6cd62a)

sure its a nihi counter, glowbro check (lol that goes out the window if it gets scald burnt or CM flame just nukes it at +1), and while u can easily land a toxic on stuff such as slowking, tang, salamence, moltres, hippo, and maybe some more it still gets forced out and doesnt exactly insta solve its issue of being unable to realistically break through them anyway

Magnet rise? assuming you are right about it, it makes exca easy as hell to pivot around or forces another teammate to compress a role, such as droppping iron head means togekiss is a bad MU and exca cant deal with it, while dropping toxic means slowking, tang, mence, moltres, etc just take advantage of you, and dropping stealth rocks just means another teammates has to pick up the slack for exca just to remove hazards which can be valuable... but as you said its only see on those specs vanill and chandy teams which are also B- and B which I do not believe is enough to be like "yeah exca is A- because it helps a B- and B rank pokemon, and it makes the nihi MU better" the nihi MU isnt neccessary due to its decreasing popularity and its easy to fit nihi counterplay these days and even meteor beam nihi counterplay isnt that hard to fit esp with the rise of coba, nidoqueen, scarf diggersby, registeel, azelf, lycan, etc. I doubt plopping exca on a team just to solve a nihi issue esp when coba is right there is much of a thing... sure it compresses a lot of roles but idt it does them that well esp when it can be easily overwhelmed

 

[Estarossa]

sure its a nihi counter, glowbro check (lol that goes out the window if it gets scald burnt or CM flame just nukes it at +1), and while u can easily land a toxic on stuff such as slowking, tang, salamence, moltres, hippo, and maybe some more it still gets forced out and doesnt exactly insta solve its issue of being unable to realistically break through them anyway

Magnet rise? assuming you are right about it, it makes exca easy as hell to pivot around or forces another teammate to compress a role, such as droppping iron head means togekiss is a bad MU and exca cant deal with it, while dropping toxic means slowking, tang, mence, moltres, etc just take advantage of you, and dropping stealth rocks just means another teammates has to pick up the slack for exca just to remove hazards which can be valuable... but as you said its only see on those specs vanill and chandy teams which are also B- and B which I do not believe is enough to be like "yeah exca is A- because it helps a B- and B rank pokemon, and it makes the nihi MU better" the nihi MU isnt neccessary due to its decreasing popularity and its easy to fit nihi counterplay these days and even meteor beam nihi counterplay isnt that hard to fit esp with the rise of coba, nidoqueen, scarf diggersby, registeel, azelf, lycan, etc. I doubt plopping exca on a team just to solve a nihi issue esp when coba is right there is much of a thing... sure it compresses a lot of roles but idt it does them that well esp when it can be easily overwhelmed

How exactly does it make excadrill any harder to pivot around than normal SD-less sets? Yes you run Toxic EQ Rapid Spin Magnet Rise on it, Iron head isn't particularly useful to you in the absense of SD anyway (togekiss is hardly common enough to be an issue), so no none of that stuff takes advantage of you without incurring a price that lets your teammates overwhelm them. Dropping Stealth Rock is hardly forcing teammates to compress more roles, you don't really wanna run both rocks + spin on excadrill anyway over better setters that aren't so ridiculously compressed and have better matchups versus removers.

It's not only seen on those teams but its an example of a case where Magnet Rise specifically is extremely helpful, Excadrill is still a good Pokemon outside of these situations and Magnet Rise is definitely still viable too, I was bringing up these situations because its a set you entirely overlooked in your original post despite being one of its best sets atm. FYI vanilluxe is almost certainly rising in this update too.

Nihilego popularity is also shooting up again so Excadrill being the only remover with a good matchup versus it is valuable, you can talk about other Pokemon that check it like Cobalion, Nidoqueen (get knocked and be unable to break anything tbh tho), registeel etc, but none of these Pokemon are removers like Excadrill is, while Nihilego otherwise has a fantastic matchup versus removers. The last twoPokemon you mention aren't even very good versus Nihilego anyway.

 

[Venuesaur]

-> S-

Wrote something about this in the uu discord but I want to propose Tangrowth rising to S-. Tang is kind of nutty with the things it can do right now, especially compared to Amoonguss, it's main competition. It's role compression is fantastic as a bulky pivot/knocker/fat grass, but what I mainly want to focus on is how hard it is for things to switch into it. There are only 3 really 'safe' switchins: skarmory, scizor, and amoonguss. Amoonguss and scizor often still don't appreciate getting knocked depending on their item (black sludge shroom/hdb sciz), but everything else is often heavily threatened by tangrowth. Flyings and fires like mence/moltres get knocked and/or sludge poisoned, cobalion takes min 80% from a focus blast... a lot of the time tang forces the opponent into an unfavourable scenario on teams without one of those 3, if only because the combo of focus blast/knock/potential poison is fantastic at crippling other mons. Compared to Amoonguss, which is still a great mon, it's much less passive and has a much easier time forcing progress, whereas shroom becomes coba fodder after using spore; tang also has a great ground resist that makes it much better into the many grounds in the tier. In snake draft, Tang was the second most used mon in the tier, behind cobalion, who i'd argue is #1 right now. Tang is truly phenomenal defensive glue, and I'd argue it easily belongs in S-.
Sry if this reads poorly I wrote this at 5 in the morning kek

justice for noodles

 

[Monky25]

Every time I make one of these I always tell myself to make it a quick post but I end up writing an essay

to S: Insane cracked mon, always manages to top the usage stats in basically every relevant tour that's happened over the last 4-5 months. An amazing glue Pokemon, I honestly find it difficult to not put it on teams. It handles a lot stuff like Scizor, Zarude, and Nihilego that would be pains to beat without this Pokemon. Swords Dance is a very consistent and splashable wallbreaker that can be very versatile. There's the standard SD CC Edge Megahorn, but we've got Magnet Rise Variants to stop Hippowdon, Substitute to get through Hippowdon and Amooguss with the extra safety net, and rocks + STABs for compression. Utility sets with Toxic, Thunder Wave, or Taunt also offer a lot in the builder. Cobalion is able to enable a lot of nicher stuff like Reuniclus, Vanilluxe, Togekiss, and more to become useful and fit on teams because of what it offers to shore up their weaknesses. Being a fake Steel doesn't really matter too much because all our Steels also are pretty fake. They all lose to Azelf and Primarina over time, while Pokemon some Steels like Celesteela and Excadrill can beat like Hatterene and Togekiss aren't that common to really make or break Cobalion. It's proven itself to be on par with Hippowdon and should reside with it in S rank.

to A+/A: Overrated asf and I will die on this hill. Does not have the game-to-game impact and versatility as an S rank should and not that difficult to really handle in the teambuilder with Pokemon like Cobalion, Salamence, Rotom-W, and Skarmory being commonplace and used a lot. It has not really popped off much at all lately nor really be used enough to be on par with Cobalion and Hippowdon. I think that even if it is a Pokemon that requires a fair chunk of respect in the builder it has failed to perform on an in-game basis and should not really touch the S ranks at all. It's lowk closer to A even though that's a somewhat warm take.

to A+: Outright criminal at the fact this is not A+. Choice Scarf sets are a top glue Pokemon in the tier and patch up lots of issues for offensive teams like Azelf and Noivern. With a modest nature (timid only gets past scarf Darmitan and +1 Excadrill) you feel like you're actually doing damage. Choice Specs are nearly unwallable barring Chansey and Primarina. I get the prominence of the latter can be annoying but Hydra's value in the teambuilder with its Choice Scarf sets make it very valuable to any item its on as a great speed control + enabler, making it more than justified to rise to A+.

to A-: To me Zarude can be quite hard to fit these days without feeling a massive weakness to Keldeo/Primarina and being forced into specific set teammates and in general I value the defensive integrity of Amoonguss and Tangrowth far more in the builder. Also loses to common stuff like Cobalion, Scizor, Crobat, and Salamence. It's always had this counterplay but while before it covered a lot of holes and could enable stuff with U-turn, it now can cause more issues than it patches up. Idt it's nearly had the same effect as the other A ranks at all these last few months so A- suits Zarude better.

to B: Very mediocre Pokemon that I honestly find myself going out of my way to use at times. I think the only sets you'd really use are SubToxic and Wish and neither scream high tier to me, the former requires a fair bit of support between item and spikes removal and finding good opportunities to get in while the latter is passive asf despite being a good enabler to Pokemon like Conkeldurr. I just don't think it's that strong nor its traits are useful enough to keep it even in B+.

to B: Mediocre Pokemon and I struggle to justify using this over any other Electric-type pivot. Washer threatening Hippowdon is massive in its favor and its water typing provides a lot more useful defensive applications. Its traits of immediately KOing Grasses aren't worth its still limited offensive potential and much weaker defensive utility. Not at all representative of B+.

to B+: 100% agree with a rise for this, band is super scary and underprepared for. Even with Hippowdon + Scizor you still gotta be wary of taking on Lycanroc-D because of how strong it hits. Great benefactor of spikes and potent revenge killer to lots of stuff like DD gyarados and chipped scarf hydra. B hard undersells this and a rise is more than appropriate.

to B+: I used to be a hater of this Pokemon but it's really nice to have on a lot of Spikes builds which are very strong because our removal sucks. It checks a lot of stuff the Grasses beat like Keldeo, Thundurus, and Primarina even without Regenerator and matches up well against setters like Swampert and Hippowdon even. Gets a fair bit of usage lately and a modest rise to B+ is fair.

to B/B-: This Pokemon sucks, it doesn't check what you want it to check because they all carry U-turn and half the tier dumpsters on it. Often forced into Defog unless stuck with an Excadrill which is an issue because it loses to every setter barring Excadrill who isn't that common of a Stealth Rock setter anymore. 3 of the best Pokemon in the tier (Primarina, Cobalion, and Hippowdon) outright shut you down. Scizor, Tangrowth, and Diggersby all Knock you. Azelf clicks U-turn. You lose to Nihilego, Amoonguss, Rotom-W, Keldeo, the list goes on. Hard to really say what I'd use it for compared to other Pokemon like Salamence, I think it could even go to B- at this point.

to UR: It had its uses but realistically there's no real reason to use this compared to a better combo like Primarina + Diggersby.

 

[JoeMama]

C->C+/Higher

Mag consistently manages to scare Skarm and Celesteela and check other steels such as Scizor and Cobalion consistently giving it game to game use in opening up holes in a defensive core and steel beam is a great nuke.

A Few Calcs

252+ SpA Choice Specs Magneton Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Scizor: 276-325 (80.4 - 94.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Magneton Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 140 SpD Scizor: 234-276 (68.2 - 80.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Magneton Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Cobalion: 298-352 (92.2 - 108.9%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO* (Mag dies to CC)
252+ SpA Choice Specs Magneton Steel Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Thundurus-Therian: 213-252 (71.2 - 84.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Magneton Steel Beam vs. 252 HP / 216 SpD Hippowdon: 358-423 (85.2 - 100.7%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

 

[Adaam]

I agree entirely with JoeMama

 

[Aqua Jet]

hi after building a bazillion teams during snake I'm here with a few overdue noms

to b+

If anything I would argue Mamoswine to go higher, this thing is broken. Mamoswine has done what its always did, and no new innovations in the metagame have been bad for it. If anything, the recent innovation of Scarf Mamoswine by Misa in UUSD finals helps Mamoswine's viability, as it can now take on Cobalion (50% to OHKO after Rocks) and Zygarde-10%, while still threatening the Grasses. Scizor is obviously still a pain for it, but you yourself nommed it down to A+ in part due to its lack of usage. New innovations such as Sylveon have also been helpful for Mamoswine, as it allows Life Orb Mamoswine to live longer and put in more work as a result.

to ur

Agree this thing is dog into everything not called HO and Stall and even then in stall you still have to get knocked

to ur

Agree with this too, Inteleon usually preys on teams with the fastest Speed stat being base 115 and we haven't been seeing too much of those recently with the rise of Crobat, Scarf Diggersby, and less so Noivern.

to c

I've been a pretty staunch supporter of this for reasons I mentioned in the discord, but if you don't feel like reading that then the main point of it was Wish is a broken move. Also Heal Bell Sylveon is bad PLEASE use Mystical Fire dropping Scizor that try to SD on you is hilarious

If I didn't comment on it it means I agree with it

 

[scorbunnys]

yo, might post some stuff cuz why not
-> S-
This mon is at its peak right now, as basically nothing gets a free switch-in into it (unless you're called Amoonguss or Colbur Glowbro) while it also legitimately walls a good portion of the metagame, like Thundurus-T, Cobalion, Primarina if running AV and a bunch of other mons. I also think it's ahead of Amoonguss atm, as compressing ground resist + Knock Off + fat grass is way too valuable to give up nowadays, plus it's got more offensive presence in the field like Venu mentioned. Non-AV sets are still okay too, as being able to fit moves like Synthesis or Sleep Powder is quite nice too, plus Rocky Helmet helps a bunch against stuff like Zarude, Cobalion, and Conkeldurr to some extent.

-> A-
Probably a hot take, but I think it's got more than enough merits to warrant a rise. First of all, it's able to revenge kill Cobalion, Salamence, Nihilego (if weakened enough), Azelf, and Keldeo in a pinch while, unlike Crobat, it's also got Flamethrower to break through Steel-types like Skarmory or Scizor, plus it's access to Draco Meteor is huge because it can revenge kill Salamence, Specs Hydreigon & Thundurus-T in a pinch. Mence alike defensive typing is also nuts atm, as it can switch into stuff like choice-locked Keldeo or Rotom-Wash more nicely, so I think overall it warrants a raise, although it's definitely a step below Crobat & Salamence.

-> C
Didn't want to talk about it at first but saw it as a discussion point so decided to go ahead.
I think this mon's got some nice traits over Primarina in Wish (a move that's greatly appreciated on builds with Pokémon that hate chip damage, notably Tentacruel, Conkeldurr, and Mamoswine, and lets you run more niche things such as Ferroseed if you want to) and on its capacity to take hits from Thundurus-T & Raikou (reminder: don't use this thing as your sole check of any) and it still checks Hydreigon, Keldeo (to some extent) & Salamence in a pinch while it doesn't let in Offensive Celesteela or Scizor either, as Mystical Fire can chunk them. It also heavily benefits from the Vanilluxe's uptick, as this mon can actually take Freeze-Dry from it very well, which helps it on cores with Bulky Water-types. Another mon it competes with is Umbreon, who's bulkier, and has got solid typing + Foul Play to stop physical attackers, but the difference here lies on the fact Sylveon can take hits from Keldeo & Hydreigon while it's also not useless against Cobalion. Another niche is its capacity of bypassing subs, which is especially valuable against SubCM Keldeo. Hmu if you want any teams and/or replays.

discussion points

to a: agree - don't get me wrong, I still think this thing's kinda dumb (altho been watching games n building a bunch lately and I've found out this is not broken), but it's defo worse than ppl give credit for. leech seed + toxic sets are still good but have been dropping a bit since aegi's ban, as they both paired p well, plus non-tect is quite abusable nowadays and non-flame means ur free zor/tang/anything that resists steel fooder, whereas leech tect feels kinda passive sometimes. meteor beam sets are just not enough to keep this thing afloat in a+ imo, as ppl are targetting it much more nowadays w stuff like nihilego, rhyp, and offensive shit like azelf that can stay in and do heavy damage to it picking up a bunch.
to a: agree - honestly, meta trends haven't been kind to it at all, as we've got primarina, azelf, tangrowth, and coba (mon can legitimately just pivot on it or dmg it w cc if keld's chipped) being as good as ever and scizor has been dropping off lately, which was one of its main targets. think cm sets are still sort of unexplored, as being a fast cmer able to rkill drei and do ok against tang, mence, and chansey shouldn't be underestimated at all, plus specs and ebelt are still probably ok.
to a: on the fence, leaning towards disagreeing tho - not sure at all tbh, like sure it's got some competition from tangrowth, but at the same time this mon eats tang alive while it's also not the passive deadweight that some claim, as foul play + sbomb psn + double spore is still very hard to switch-in while it's got some nice sets like ebutton to bring sweepers in, but idk it still doesn't fully appreciate some trends like wallbreakers such as azelf or specs drei picking up, as they can straight up break it, plus it's also abused by stuff like googles coba/glowbro, but not sure if that's enough to drop it at all.
to a: agree - since magnet rise discovery, I think this mon is doing well, as it's a much more reliable spinner not afraid of hippo while sitting on nihilego as it always does (esp since it has been dropping koff for gknot a lil bit lately). sd sets are also ok, as it can break through its checks w iron head flinches, plus 135 atk STAB EQs and Iron Heads are nothing to cough at, especially when mon's able to flinch through its answers and have a shitload of speed if running Sand Rush.
to a: disagree - nah I mean, this mon's still up there to be fair, as it's still really easy to slap on a team due to how much it checks nowadays (scizor, coba, exca, conk w/o ice punch aka most conks, can take hits from azelf, etc.) while it's also got reliable recovery, a solid enough ability, and it's a defogger that while it hasn't got the best MU into most hazard setters (tho it eats skarm and cobalion alive), it definitely compensates that with its great mu. overall there's not much to say here, but this mon's still great, like sure it's not the catch-all glue it used to be (it's still a really good glue but at one point it was like top 3), especially considering things like nihilego are re-gaining popularity and stuff that it ''checks'' can bait it with knock off like tangrowth or scizor, but I don't believe that's enough to let it drop imo.
to a+: agree - first of all, stop running timid scarf, it doesn't outspeed anything relevant that modest scarf doesn't already while it misses a bunch on power. that being said, though, this is probably the best scarf user alongside diggersby, as draco meteor + dark pulse can revenge kill a good portion of the metagame while its access to u-turn helps it to run out of checks like primarina or chansey, while specs is basically a nuclear bomb for a bunch of teams, as aside from primarina, chansey and niche-ish options like sylveon or mandibuzz (the latter ain't reliable at all), nothing can stop it from clicking its moves.
to a+: agree - nihilego has been doing phenomenally lately, as grass knot sets are nearly impossible to reliably switch into if you're not running chansey (coba and drill are also good into it, but they can get worn down by gknot) while it's also not useless defensively, as it can check mence, thund-t, and hydreigon to some extent. another meta trend that's benefitting it greatly is scizor's downtick in usage, as you're not getting bp'ed that often anymore. good ol' knock off + sr is still fine, although not being able to chunk coba & hippo sucks.
to a-: agree - monky already said it but i'll repeat it, this mon's hard to fit on teams rn, as while it's still a fine pivot, it just opens up a bunch of holes on your team, as using this as your sole grass means you become massively weak to stuff like keldeo, primarina & hard loses to cobalion unlike tangrowth or amoonguss. I also think as a scarfer it's not that good, as you mostly prefer running drei or diggers as ur scarf user overall. could probably argue for b+ but that's way too harsh.
to a - agree - it's a really solid cm wincon that can rip off a bunch of teams and setup on many defensive staples like coba, tang, skarm and steela while it's also very bulky, so it's really hard to take down. av sets might also need some exploration although cm sets are definitely it's selling point rn, as it's also got cool coverage in scald & flamethrower and sludge bomb is a nutty move as always.
to b+ - disagree - i know this is probably not a common take at all, but I think pig's still massively threatening, as nothing wants to switch into it at all, especially when ppl is relying on primarina as their bulky water rn, who gets outright smashed by two eqs, making it a massive threat for balance teams, plus icicle crash flinches means it can break through steel birds, who are top tier mons rn. however, knock off + ice shard combo is probably what makes me think it shouldn't drop though, as knock off allows it to invalidate most of its "counterplay", like washtom or steela (who added to icicle crash flinches it's overall a quite shaky check to it), while ice shard gives it a solid mu into offensive mons, like thund-t, diggersby or drei, so yeah while it's still hard to fit, it's still extremely threatening and i don't think it's on par with most b+ mons imo.
to b - agree - I mean, i'm still on rachi's train (sort of) as i do think sets like subtoxic or wish are still good on the right teams, but it's still pressured by the top tier mons like steela, drei or hippo while it doesn't check a bunch of things at all. still a decent mon but think b is more appropiate.
to b- - agree (to b though) - why was it supposed to be b+ in first place? doesn't do a lot of things aside from checking scizor and moltres, and it's a very shaky check of the former while there are a lot of moltres counterplay available. boots volt + toxic is still viable and all but still struggles against hippo, pert & can't even ko diggersby, plus ig it koes grasses which is legit? but imo i think that's more in line with stuff like entei or bulu (tho bulu's probably slightly better than that).
edit: ok I still agree with a drop, but after seeing NP sets it might only drop to b now, as it abuses a bunch of meta trends like toto said
to b+/a- - agree (with b+) - honestly the sole fact of being a grass able to check waters + spin + most electric types in a pinch is instantly ranking worth in my eyes, and that adding the fact it can also spinblock and actually act as an ok breaker just makes it worth a rise in my eyes. a- sounds a little bit optimistic for now tho.
to b+ - no clue - haven't seen nor tried this mon at all, seems decent enough tho.
to b - sure - honestly I'm not a daunt expert, but it seems to be really threatening for a bunch of teams, still slow as heck but i wouldn't complain if it rises.
to b- - agree - solid playstyle, as darm + venu overall hit like nuclear bombs while there's still room left for a decent defensive backbone or you can go for a more offensive route. still hella inconsistent per se but otherwise we'd aim for it to be much higher, so b- sounds fitting for sun.
to ur - dunno - seems shitty, but it probably still does what it does best, though i'm not sure if that's enough to stay ranked. don't care about this mon at all tbh.
to ur - agree - it was actually ok at one point, but now you're better off running primarina + scarf diggersby. still usable but overall not worth ranking since it doesn't have any niche at all imo.

I also agree with Scizor dropping & Lycanroc-D rising. Mandibuzz is still usable but doesn't feel B+ anymore, probably B- fits better for it.

 

[Totomon]

Hmmm it seems I am a bit late to the nom party but here they come!

to S- and keep

in A+: Others alr made this one but big big vouch, with just its AV set Tang is like the biggest glue you can ask for, yall know what it does insane progress maker and blanket check to everything. But wouldn't the two top tier mons Scizor and Amoonguss keep this guy down? absolutely not, Scizor is almost instantly forced to roost by fblast and yeah shroom is p fair (you can still predict spore v bomb mindgames to 1v1 it) but its rise ties into the discussion point of shroom dropping. Shroom is just worse, much more exploitable by the things it "checks" easily 1v1d by prim, scizor and hippo, while Tang is just much better vs the things u put it against (thund, prim) nowadays shroom is just insanely exploitable, mainly due to a lot of techs that target hippo (bat, steela, etc). But to show the clear division that IMO both grasses have is rising tang to clearly show the top 4 mons of the tier (Coba, Hippo, Tang, Sciz in that order don't @ me). Spore is still p good and its a good buffer.

to A-: Nidoqueen needs to rise, it just doesn't fit with the specific and nicher B+ mons when its got so many splashable and desirable traits. Some teams will just outright ignore it and lose to it, good compression, scares omnipresent Cobalion and Scizor early game, good prim check capable of scaring it out at <80%, and finds so many opportunities to just freely come in on Skarm and Amoonguss. I've also been using it with Wish Chansey and let me tell u, its a match made in heaven. the division between it and king is just MASSIVE imo.

to A- (or even A?): Another mon that will just randomly 6-0 teams wow, we saw quite a bit of this in uusd, but even just ignoring the cheese potential its a very consistent wincon, Nihilego, Excadrill and Thundurus are getting much less usage with many mons like Hydreigon, Tang and Hippo giving it entry to repeatedly pummel the few common checks it has. Also Togekiss gives huge flexibility on the way u play vs the seemingly uncounterable prim when u can munch its restalk hits and even NP up to beat cm variants, allows for more diverse structures vs the seal. investing into its bulk is massive when dealing w stronger stuff like Diggs, Zydog and Cobalion the threats u lose out on ain't that big of a deal. yada yada few flying resists yada yada flame owns sciz and heal bell owns hippo.

keep B+: I disagree strongly with dropping tom, you are right defog sets are absolute shit (pivot is still ok-ish, really good at spreading tox, it ohkos hippo basically) but mainly I wanna highlight the strength of its NP set. Introduced to me by pitfall during uusd I've fallen in love, many teams use real fringe resists to tom when ppl be switching slowking, prim and hippo into oven, that's where NP comes in as they try to soak a weak volt switch you are close to ohkoing them with just a little chip, even when your opponent knows its coming it finds plenty opportunities in front of the regen grasses and scizor. Checking it in the builder is very hard when Hydreigon doesn't use roost, Nihilego is much less common and Swampert is practically dead, using standard pain split is perfectly viable and I honestly think that its a very underrated wincon on fat teams, being the best Togekiss counter you could ask for while a great check to Crobat is awesome (https://pokepast.es/36af41cb12e09d06 here's a sample team I really like with it, heal bell is epic with tom) But substitute is especially nasty on more offensive teams as it completely abuses Tangrowth and Hippowdon in addition to the increasingly common dwb/toxic + flamethrower slow Salamence. Just take a look at this replay https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8uu-643751, where had FC clicked sub in turn 41 or brought it in much earlier he easily could've turned an almost unwinnable mu in its head and beat a perfectly viable team.
TLDR: Np Rotom is crazy and abuses the really terrible switchins people use vs the pivot version, shouldn't drop its closer to a rise for me.

to A: Ok Conkeldurr is pretty damn good, Its clearly the best of its kind of the "unwallable breaker" finding opportunities to come in on Cobalion, Scizor and Slow Prim and it and its mach punch matching up pretty nicely vs the most common speed control options (Zarude, Hydra,Diggs). But we all knew that, the main reason I am proposing a rise is that building with it has gotten so much easier, enabling the deadly cc variants has never been easier, so many cobalion lures in Scizor/Rude/Hydra, in recent tours we've seen how its almost unstoppable with Wish and a great patch vs fat, many beneficiaries of it luring/forcing to heal the common Hippo and Skarm. Rn it just pairs really nicely with a lot of top tiers, its gotten more common and continues to destroy teams.

Now its just time for things I don't got much to say about but agree/disagree with previous noms.

AGREE
to UR: bad speed control it suxx
to B/B-: No one uses this, terrible fogger
to A+: goat glue goat speed goat breaker
to S: THE wincon and THE rocker

DISAGREE
to A-: lot of amazing coba abusers to pair with, good hippo and king switchin.
to A+: still needs very specific checks, coba ain't invincible
to B+: there are better fish mon and sciz and coba checks
to Anywhere: A- is fine, ok remover ok toxicer ok sd'er

Everything else I didn't mention I don't have a strong opinion towards, (rise reuniclus maybbbbbb?)

 

[pokemonisfun]

Nomming Regice to C rank from currently UR

jim (Regice) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 248 HP / 196 Def / 48 SpA / 16 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Ice Beam
- Thunderbolt

(EVs mean 4 SR switch-ins if you lose boots, jump point in spdef, enough def to avoid Zarude Power Whip 2HKO.)

The easiest way to think of UR mons in my view is to compare it to existing elements of the metagame. Regice isn't that far off from Articuno - it trades instant recovery, speed, utility moves in exchange for significantly greater special bulk, Tbolt, and lesser SR/Volt Switch weakness. Some metagame threats it matches up well with compared to Articuno include Automize Celesteela, Thundurus, and Tangrowth (fear Knock less).

It really abuses Hippo + Tangrowth + Salamence really well and can wear down Cobalion much more quickly than Articuno. It's easier to stay in vs Tangrowth than Cuno because you don't mind losing boots as much usually. Another thing it does well vs is the offensive Primarina that doesn't run CM which is great. Overall Ice Typing will always create problems defensively but because it can take Flamethrowers from most Pokemon really well it's a viable defensive Pokemon in my view.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8uu-648907 - UU Swiss tournament game

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1662474816-8qcbabbupbsm5dpjvrb40xsi5yvv8q3pw - Game to maintain #1 ladder spot - this is the exact type of team it can sweep

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1662655260-eehf6v7o0twg9996vqoxl3ewhavd1yupw - the extra special bulk here lets it survive Noivern

 

[fireblastmiss]

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1662655260-eehf6v7o0twg9996vqoxl3ewhavd1yupw - the extra special bulk here lets it survive Noivern

I fucking knew I was gonna end up in a VR post the second I lost this game

 

[pokemonisfun]

GOD POD (Golisopod) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Emergency Exit
EVs: 160 HP / 252 Atk / 96 Spe
Adamant Nature
- First Impression
- Spikes
- Liquidation
- Knock Off

Golisipod is currently UR, want to nom it to B-

Obviously spikes are great + knock off is seen as necessity (and you can frequently knock Salamence which is great) + your priority is really good, stronger than Crawdaunt's CB Jet + you resist Thousand Arrows so you can check Zygarde and Excadrill.

So all these things are good and pretty much known already, although in my view underappreciated.

One thing that's a bit less known is that Emergency Exit isn't always bad, especially with Wish support, and our tier has many good Wish users including Salamence.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1674336317-3jvyd6p4n192rnl2duy1zhnc8600j99pw - see turn 29 and 43 here

Turn 29 lets me pass a Wish to Golisipod or Cobalion here because of Emergency Exit which is a great thing to do for my team. Turn 43 is likely an error from the opponent but being able to set up hazards is fantastic because by the end of the turn, residual damage means I get to Exit away from the Defogger and immediately force it out. Notice it's just the Emergency Exit, but I use all of Golisipod's tools - 2HKO Hippowdon, set up maximum spikes, get rid of several Heavy Duty Boots. This is the absolute peak of Golisipod.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8uu-651701 - where I win a UU Swiss game and Golisipod does great work, removing Salamence's HDB, setting up hazards to force the opponent to Defog so my own Chansey can heal, and getting last ditch damage on JIrachi so it goes into 1000 arrows range.

I think this mon is just super underrated. Thanks tomatosoup110 for the idea

 

[sims796]

Looking at those replays, if there was a system ranking individual mons by difficulty usage, Golisipod would be ranked expert. Like you need actual practice to make the most use out of Emergency exit.

 

[pokemonisfun]

Looking at those replays, if there was a system ranking individual mons by difficulty usage, Golisipod would be ranked expert. Like you need actual practice to make the most use out of Emergency exit.

It is just my opinion so you should feel free to disagree based on your own experiences, but while I think what you are saying is basically true I'm not sure how meaningful it is.

Yes learning the Emergency Exit + Wish Mechanics is probably something new for most players, since I assume most players haven't used Wish + Emergency Exit for a while, if ever. But it's also really not that hard to learn, basically you just have to know whether your Golisipod will go below 50% that turn or not. It's also not that far off from Eject Button, which has some use this gen, particularly on Amoonguss to bring in sweepers, especially on Rain teams.

All of this is to say, sure I agree with you but I don't think it really impacts Golisipod's ranking.

 

[Sulo]

Nominating to A

This Pokemon is a genuine threat, I think that while A- is fine, the recent games I've had involved this beast (playing as and against it) have proven to me that it's so much more than I've taken it for. It's stupidly bulky, able to come in on more than it should for free. A healthy Gyarados living a Draco Meteor from Choice Scarf Hydreigon, one of our primary speed control options, can often force some awkward situations for the Hydreigon user if they lack some other method of punishing Gyarados (contact punishing items/abilities like Rocky Helmet and Flame Body, though Moltres is getting slightly less relevant and it carries Lum Berry anyways). Coverage is also absurd on this Pokemon, with Power Whip invalidating answers like Rotom-Wash and Quagsire, and Ice Fang eliminating Salamence and Amoonguss, making it a lot harder to fit counterplay to it. I think that Moxie takes this Pokemon to a whole other level as well, in a similar fashion to Celesteela; though Celesteela is slower and weaker to Choice Scarf Hydreigon, and can run into some issues with more common Pokemon like Nihilego and both Rotom formes. Gyarados is able to snowball in the face of so many Pokemon by virtue of these traits, and I think A or maybe A+ is reflective of this.