Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion

[Rothj]

That’s specifically contradicted by OU tiering policy. “Broken checking broken” is not a valid reason to keep something in the tier.

I mean to a degree sure. But there literally aren't that many viable mons in the game right now, in general. There aren't tons of interesting options being held down that these bans opened up.

I mean people always complain. But random people in a thread isn't the same as the council indicating they're planning to ban things. When they say they plan to look at tera, and are keeping an eye on things, they mean exactly that. They're going to look at it, without necessarily having the intent to ban it. You complain that if they keep banning things you won't have interesting stuff happening, but if you don't ban anything the format becomes solvable because there's a clear best pokemon to build around, and you end up with like 3 viable teams, all abusing bundle and trying to counter each other.

The format we just had wasn't even close to solved. They really should have let us play with the new mons for like a couple weeks. Numerous teams weren't running palafin at all, for example. A lot did have him but not all of them. There were viable stall teams that were performing decently as well. When you ban whatever is the "best", you just create a new meta that no one can beat. Right now the format is unbalanced because game freak introduced a ton of powerful mons all at once that outclass basically everything that isn't on that same level. But even if you ban some of them, it won't suddenly make all the really low power stuff good. The other powerful mons will just dominate instead.

 

[zantaRay]

I mean to a degree sure. But there literally aren't that many viable mons in the game right now, in general. There aren't tons of interesting options being held down that these bans opened up.


The format we just had wasn't even close to solved. They really should have let us play with the new mons for like a couple weeks. Numerous teams weren't running palafin at all, for example. A lot did have him but not all of them. There were viable stall teams that were performing decently as well. When you ban whatever is the "best", you just create a new meta that no one can beat. Right now the format is unbalanced because game freak introduced a ton of powerful mons all at once that outclass basically everything that isn't on that same level. But even if you ban some of them, it won't suddenly make all the really low power stuff good. The other powerful mons will just dominate instead.

Can you show me where in the ban announcement The Council said iron bundle was only good on offence? It worked on any style of team tthat could repeatedly get it in and out and weaken it's counters, and those ran the full spectrum of team styles.

 

[Rothj]

Can you show me where in the ban announcement The Council said iron bundle was only good on offence? It worked on any style of team tthat could repeatedly get it in and out and weaken it's counters, and those ran the full spectrum of team styles.

I don't really understand what you're referring to when you ask that. I didn't say anything like that in the post you quoted.

 

[alephgalactus]

Numerous teams weren't running palafin at all, for example. A lot did have him but not all of them.

Yeah, and all the teams that didn’t run Palafin lost to the ones that did. Your arguments are covering incredibly well-trodden ground; they weren’t valid in 2008 and they aren’t valid now. Go play Ubers.

 

[Rothj]

Yeah, and all the teams that didn’t run Palafin lost to the ones that did. Your arguments are covering incredibly well-trodden ground; they weren’t valid in 2008 and they aren’t valid now. Go play Ubers.

I mean, anyone could watch matches that are 1500+ in the client and see that numerous teams weren't running palafin. People were figuring out ways to beat it. Anyways, all I'll say is you can't just declare an argument "invalid" because you don't like what someone is saying. It's well known by now that if you ban something it doesn't necessarily open up a new more diverse meta, you just create a new strongest thing.

 

[alephgalactus]

I mean, anyone could watch matches that are 1500+ in the client and see that numerous teams weren't running palafin. People were figuring out ways to beat it.

Are those successful Palafin-less teams in the room with us right now?

Anyways, all I'll say is you can't just declare an argument "invalid" because you don't like what someone is saying.

No, but I can declare an argument invalid because it goes against OU tiering policy, over a decade of precedent, and the very nature of competitive play itself, and because I had to learn to shut down arguments like this when I was getting my game design degree.

It's well known by now that if you ban something it doesn't necessarily open up a new more diverse meta, you just create a new strongest thing.

So your argument isn’t just against banning Palafin, it’s against banning anything, ever. That’s a fine point to make for, say, Ubers or AG.

 

[Gondre19Wedj]

If I may, I'd like to quickly tell everyone about Pikalytics. It's a website that gathers usage data on pokemon battles and displays it in easy to read ways. It allows you to see what is used most often, common movesets, terastilizations, items, ev spreads, common teammates, etc. It isn't quite up to speed as it was during gen 8, but that is kinda to be expected for now. It is really useful in VGC for teambuilding and I imagine it can provide a lot of mileage here as well. I'd recommend it especially for beginners, as it really helps show what is good.

Great Tusk Gen 9 OU Stats | Pokémon Scarlet Violet | Pikalytics

This link says Great Tusk, but that's just cause it is the first Pokemon that it opens to as, according to Pikalytics, it's number 1 in usage.

 

[Rothj]

Are those successful Palafin-less teams in the room with us right now?

No, but I can declare an argument invalid because it goes against OU tiering policy, over a decade of precedent, and the very nature of competitive play itself.

So your argument isn’t just against banning Palafin, it’s against banning anything, ever. That’s a fine point to make for, say, Ubers or AG.

You have been taking points and turning them into strawman arguments at various points in the thread. The reality is you are only looking at the conversation from one perspective, your own. If something new is difficult to adapt to then it's obvious that it should be banned, right? Even if other people can adapt to it, if it's holding down your pet mon that you just wish was good then obviously it has to go.

 

[zantaRay]

You have been taking points and turning them into strawman arguments at various points in the thread. The reality is you are only looking at the conversation from one perspective, your own. If something new is difficult to adapt to then it's obvious that it should be banned, right? Even if other people can adapt to it, if it's holding down your pet mon that you just wish was good then obviously it has to go.

I haven't been active on these forums since gen4 but nice to know nothing ever changes, and people still don't understand how balance or tiering works.

 

[Big Matty Kane]

Just want to provide my 2 cents here from someone very casual who has been following smogon all 18 years. I think quickbans are healthy in general, but should be based on usage, not "gut-feeling votes". Houndstone is clearly a problem but it does have counters. Let its usage play out first; it's been a week and then it can be autobanned without issue.

This can even play forward in other mons too that are never banned. A certain ground/flying cloud genie will always be on nearly half the teams in February here, but won't be banned because of "opinions". Just make a flat % rule.

 

[Rothj]

I’m not going to argue with you anymore. There’s no need to justify my point to someone who created their account an hour ago specifically to cry about the Palafin ban.

The issue is that bans should be done deliberately after the meta settles and things like win rate/useage are looked at extensively above say 1500+ rating. I did not use palafin. But I don't think banning something off of a vote just a few days after a previous ban is the way to do it.

 

[zantaRay]

I mean if you're gonna talk about high rating players using non palafin teams, I'm one of them. I peaked around 1600 with this team. Every single decent team I played was using either palafin or bundle or both. And as I got higher I noticed that almost every team was built like mine. Blissey + Gholdengo + hazzard stack + a dedicated palafin counter + win condition + extra defensive piece or another win condition. People had enough time to play with bundle and palafin to all come to the same general team build. The meta, at those higher levels, had settled.

https://pokepast.es/e83f87ace1172652

 

[Moyashi]

It's well known by now that if you ban something it doesn't necessarily open up a new more diverse meta, you just create a new strongest thing.

Things will come up and attempt to fill the void left by banned mons, and sure we'll see new mons become "the best" but this is in a much less constrained metagame which allows people to reasonably build and respond to these mons. When you don't have overbearing pokemon limiting what players are able to use, it becomes much more possible for the metagame to develop and allow for wider varieties of teams.

I mean to a degree sure. But there literally aren't that many viable mons in the game right now, in general. There aren't tons of interesting options being held down that these bans opened up.

Gen9 gave us a ton of unique mons with varying levels of viability, but we especially got quite a lot of fantastic additions. I mean many Paradox pokemon, the Treasures of Ruin, Baxcalibur, heck we got THREE new strong Unaware pokemon that are good at what they do in their niches. Garganacl, Gholdengo... That's without considering returning staples like Garchomp, Corviknight, RotomW and even Tyranitar just off the top of my head. There are many more beyond that.

You have been taking points and turning them into strawman arguments at various points in the thread. The reality is you are only looking at the conversation from one perspective, your own. If something new is difficult to adapt to then it's obvious that it should be banned, right? Even if other people can adapt to it, if it's holding down your pet mon that you just wish was good then obviously it has to go.

Kind of ironic to accuse alephgalactus of strawmanning you as you proceed to then do that to them.

The issue is that bans should be done deliberately after the meta settles and things like win rate/useage are looked at extensively above say 1500+ rating. I did not use palafin. But I don't think banning something off of a vote just a few days after a previous ban is the way to do it.

Quickbans exist to remove blatantly broken pokemon that would only stunt the development of the metagame especially early on. And btw ladder usage has been and always will be a pointless metric to judge a pokemon's potential brokenness. There are many factors that are actually relevant like heavy restrictions on teambuilding and how easily X mon can take over games in spite of checks on the opposing team (Palafin) or how a mon can be heavily constraining to face in battle (Iron Bundle),

 

[HDF0]

Like people want grimmsnarl gone, gholdengo, cyclizar, and so many others... eventually we will just have dragons basically? It's going to create a weird meta if people just keep calling for bans on everything.

I think there is some disagreement on what constitutes a bannable threat, and also that there is some misevaluation of what the council is attempting to do. The council has done a pretty good job so far of not being "banhappy", with all 4 bans receiving fairly popular support and hoping to increase the diversity in the meta. Note that despite 7 mons making it onto the Radar each week only 2 were banned each week. I think it's pretty clear the council is exercising restraint considering there were a lot of calls for Gholdengo bans in this thread, while 0 ban votes were given. The council is not going to be banning that many mons. Furthermore, Finchinator has shared that the OU Council is likely moving on to Tera, which will involve the community with the various threads being put up for the community to offer their opinion.

If something new is difficult to adapt to then it's obvious that it should be banned, right? Even if other people can adapt to it, if it's holding down your pet mon that you just wish was good then obviously it has to go.

I also believe there is no need to put down everyone who disagrees that something is bannable. Rothj actually says here that they believe SOME pokemon are bannable, and so there wasn't a disagreement on that front, but rather a disagreement on whether Palafin or other pokemon were bannable, and the speed at which they were being banned.

 

[P3DS]

Kinda saw these bans coming. Interesting how cyclizar was close to going. Haven't found it too oppressing, and sometimes a little too slow.

In terms of the 2 new on the radar Mons, gholdengo feels ok for the format imo. Spices up the hazard game and has some strong offensive presence. Not overly broken, but I can see the problem peeps have with it. In terms of anhiallape... Not sure, but it could do some damage. Probs going to stay around.

 

[Turtleye_]

Just want to provide my 2 cents here from someone very casual who has been following smogon all 18 years. I think quickbans are healthy in general, but should be based on usage, not "gut-feeling votes". Houndstone is clearly a problem but it does have counters. Let its usage play out first; it's been a week and then it can be autobanned without issue.

This can even play forward in other mons too that are never banned. A certain ground/flying cloud genie will always be on nearly half the teams in February here, but won't be banned because of "opinions". Just make a flat % rule.

Nah thats a really poor idea. Usage does not neccesarily correlate to brokenness. I'll put up an extreme example: a mon that has 4 signature moves, all at 500 base power but with 30% accuracy

Is this mon broken in a competitive sense? Absolutely, each of it's moves hit obscenely hard. Would this mon be used often? Likely not, since it only does something 30% of the time and the other 70% it is a complete liability.

This mon would not see usage. But it would certainly be quickbanned for being broken & uncompetitive.

On the flipside you absolutely can have mons that are present but are not broken. Gen 8 Landorus-t is a really good example of this. It's typing, movepool and ability are all really good, which means it can be dropped onto almost any team and perform a certain role well. Suicide Lead, SpDef wall, Physdef wall, banded, scarfed, were all things it could do. This means that overall lando had a really high usage rate but it was not restricting the meta.

You didnt need to go out of your way to prepare for Lando. It has no recovery sobis worn down pretty easily. It has some glaring weaknesses to ice & water. It got pretty easily stopped by defensive mons like Slowbro and Corviknight.

Something can be very common and not be broken. Something can hardly ever be used and be broken.

Something can definitely be super common and also broken. But these things arent neccesarily related.

 

[Parrot6632]

Kinda saw these bans coming. Interesting how cyclizar was close to going. Haven't found it too oppressing, and sometimes a little too slow.

In terms of the 2 new on the radar Mons, gholdengo feels ok for the format imo. Spices up the hazard game and has some strong offensive presence. Not overly broken, but I can see the problem peeps have with it. In terms of anhiallape... Not sure, but it could do some damage. Probs going to stay around.

Annihilape is in a weird spot for me, yeah if he gets going he’ll start oneshotting your entire team, but he has no form of speed control, his special bulk is mediocre at best and so is his recovery, and rage fist hits like a wet noodle until he’s eaten a few hits. I’ve been running sylveon because she’s really good into a lot of the meta picks, and annihilape is no exception unless he terastalizes, which usually just ends with him getting revenge killled by something faster anyways. He has some pretty severe 4MSS, wanting rage fist, bulk up, drain punch, taunt, and rest. With no rest he’s vulnerable to status and liable to die before rage fist can get that strong, with no taunt any haze or unaware mon can just sit on him and boost to infinity while he can’t touch them, and with no drain punch he gets completely walled by normals ala houndstone. That being said I think there’s a good argument for rage fist simply being an uncompetitive move, and arguably his counters are too limited by potential tera changes, but personally I haven’t had too much trouble with him.

gholdengo I think is too much for the format in combination with everything else. A lot of stuff that should deal with him on paper, like the donphan twins, end up taking too long in actual games when you have to deal with some crazy setup sweeper or choice mon every turn. Spending 2 turns to kill the cheese stick and a third to spin is enough to bleed you dry when every turn is so important against HO. I’ve unironically had the most success with balance running 6 pairs of boots, which should say something. The only other viable solution I’ve found for balance is talonflame, who is much easier to bring in, can oneshot the cheese stick with overheat, and can easily pivot out again via u turn.

 

[Local Dog]

m not going to argue with you anymore. There’s no need to justify my point to someone who created their account an hour ago specifically to cry about the Palafin ban.

Can you please stop being an asshole to people you disagree with? I don't even disagree with most things you say but I still genuinely dislike reading anything from you due to how you talk with people

Great Tusk being number 1 in usage isn't surprising, it's probably the most utility Mon in the tier currently. I think mons introduced this gen are still a little overplayed due to people still wanting to try them out and due to our choices being so limited

Arboliva being more used than Magnezone and Sandy Shocks really does surprise me however. Setting up grassy terrain with her ability seems difficult and I don't see much more utility in her than in terrain. Haven't tried her out yet though

Forretress only being 1.7% is also surprising. Great spikes setter and spinner with amazing defensive typing, pivot moves and good stats

 

[haunted paper]

Cyclizar getting a few ban votes this time makes sense. It didn't get any votes before because it was absolutely eclipsed by the massive broken mons that are now banned and HO being so oppressive. With each round of bans, fast HO teams are taking a dip viability while, slow/fat teams are getting more viable. And with slower mons being around, Cyclizar isn't force to run scarf. With fat walls running around that don't run hard hitting moves or have big attacking stats, allow Cyclizar to pass subs without them getting broken so easily. Blissey, Toxapex, Corviknight, and Amoonguss are getting more usage. Clodsire, Dondonzo, Slowking, and Rotom-W have gotten better. Great Tusk is starting to run bulkier sets with earthquake. All benefitting Cyclizar. Only one exception would be unaware Skeledirge since it can get past subs with Torch Song.

Annihilape getting votes seems weird. It does very good against stall and slower teams which are becoming more popular, sure. But it still has a tough time with faster teams. It could become more of a threat in the future with the next round of bans or if HO teams drop in usage by a lot on ladder. Then again, it could be really OP in tours due to slow balance teams being the most used so, makes sense for a ban.

P.S. - Ban Chien Pao plz. This mon is like the last fast hard hitter that should've got banned before due to the broken ability it has. Chien Pao threatens every team style with pure ease thanks to Ice Shard + Sucker Punch + Secret Sword. Banded sets can give dondonzo a hard time, and that's like the only mon I can think of that handles it. And hazard stack is getting really good, giving the don a tough time with staying as a consistent answer to it (relying on rest for recovery also sucks).

 

[zakurenai]

Gholdengo stans really out here with their helmets on, strapped in, sitting in their padded rooms, effortlessly stopping all Hazard removal just by breathing, Ghost Type stopping all trapping Moves/Abilities + Fighting immunity, Steel Type stopping all Poison moves + Poison immunity, Good as Gold pretending it isn't Wonder Guard 2.0, 133 SpA + 120 Power STAB on a defensive Mon, talking about "Defog is OP"

 

[Bohrier]

Can someone please explain why Anihillape is even being considered for a ban? Its good yes, but I don't think it's even good enough to be like A- tier if there was a VR.

 

[Local Dog]

Can someone please explain why Anihillape is even being considered for a ban? Its good yes, but I don't think it's even good enough to be like A- tier if there was a VR.

Rage Fist was considered super good before the last mech update. It's still great now but Annihilape being statusable, tauntable and having to take numerous hits despite it's good but not great bulk changed that and I don't think many people want it banned now

 

[Perish Song]

Dragons of SV OU

I've been spamming quite a lot of Dragons as of lately, I wanna share my experiences for some of them.

Re: Re: Roaring Moon

I've said a few times here that I was always disappointed with its Dragon Dance sets, as its very easy to revenge kill it with abundance of priority running wild right now, and I also believed Roaring Moon had always relied on a good Tera set to not get revengekilled. (Ie, Steel is very common to block Fairy and Ice Shard, while Flying blocks Breloom). But still you needed the correct Tera typing and not running into some specific Pokemon so it felt too much of a gamble. Therefore, I opted for a Choice Band set.

Roaring Moon @ Choice Band
Ability: Protosynthesis
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- U-turn
- Outrage
- Crunch
- Earthquake

This set is rocking a 566 Atk and 370 Speed whenever you enter. This results in some fun knockouts.

Baxcalibur

I've been mainly using the set below, this thing's 145 attack paired with Swords Dance ( Because come on now, it dies to Bullet Punch and Mach Punch so I never really benefited that much from DD sets. Plus there are far greater sweepers.) results in some insane calculations. 145 attack alone is devastating to get rid of quite a lot of things. But since metagame is still largely offensive, I believe the true value of this Pokemon will come once Balance teams develop and meta gets slower. Or it will be relevant in UU, who knows. Another niche this thing has is it can take a hit from unboosted Chien Pao and OHKO back with unboosted Glaive Rush.

Baxcalibur @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Thermal Exchange
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Ice Shard
- Earthquake
- Glaive Rush

Dragonite

Main set I've been using is Band Extremespeed on Tera Normal. The power levels is insane, half of tier is straight out OHKOed, let alone 2hko. With hazards omnipresent Dragonite is one of most vicious cleaners rn.

Im posting this in basically every platform possible, Sorry of this is a repost but this is just hilarious.

DD sets are still strong, you can make a good use of Tera Steel to block Fairy- and Ice-types in one go. Overall Dragonite is still a pretty relevant threat.

Dragapult

Specs set is still omnipresent, havent seen any creative set beside Tera Ghost to boost Shadow Balls. Shoutouts to that one dude who had Band Tera Blast bcuz they didnt wanna run Phantom Force. Its still an incredibly good Pokemon with perfect ish Coverage but for some reason not a lot of people are using it.

Garchomp

Spikes is a v good addition, provides flexibility and is a good electric immune. (Albeit there are next to no good electric mons). Still works well as a good physical tank. Overall I believe is a good mon but I havent explored Chomp enough. I believe the loss of Toxic is very significant.

Cyclizar

Screens + Shed Tail is devolving into something that isnt pleasant to play against. Once Cyclizar catches off something off guard, its almost guaranteed you are losing some drastical momentum. Due to Regenerator Cyclizar only loses 17% HP from that transaction, and it may be used multiple times a battle, unlike Orthworm who can only use it once or twice situationally, so I think Cyclizar is the main problem here. We should get rid of it.

Other unviable crap, I havent tested.

 

[Bakugames]

Thank god for these bans. I think there's still issues but nothing really worth quickbanning imo. We can deal with them as we go (and we should prob address what's the consensus on tera too)

Analysing some mons I've been running after the bans:
Glimmora: Def a big winner, lost two annoying checks, making the bulky set a bit more viable.

Dondozo: Bit mixed. Lost a hard counter, but also a target (taunt palafin was annoying but you would always out damage, so you could slowly chip it away + hazard damage, which wasn't a bad trade imo). These two going means Chi yu is everywhere, and while chi yu can't really come on dondozo from fear of liquidation or body press, dondozo can't really come on it too either due to its garbo spdef.

Clodsire: Unaware is back to being its best set again, and has more wriggle room without fearing getting ohko.

Dragons (esp dragapult): Having the time of their life rn. I think the best ones are nite and pult, who now don't have to play as safe as before to not give an opening for bundle to get in. Roaring moon might finally become more of a staple too, though i find its DD set kinda easy to get rid of.

I'd write a bit more but I have class in like 2 hours x_x

 

[Mikegengsta]

Thank god for these bans. I think there's still issues but nothing really worth quickbanning imo. We can deal with them as we go (and we should prob address what's the consensus on tera too)

Analysing some mons I've been running after the bans:</p><p>Glimmora: Def a big winner, lost two annoying checks, making the bulky set a bit more viable.

Dondozo: Bit mixed. Lost a hard counter, but also a target (taunt palafin was annoying but you would always out damage, so you could slowly chip it away + hazard damage, which wasn't a bad trade imo). These two going means Chi yu is everywhere, and while chi yu can't really come on dondozo from fear of liquidation or body press, dondozo can't really come on it too either due to its garbo spdef.

Clodsire: Unaware is back to being its best set again, and has more wriggle room without fearing getting ohko.

Dragons (esp dragapult): Having the time of their life rn. I think the best ones are nite and pult, who now don't have to play as safe as before to not give an opening for bundle to get in. Roaring moon might finally become more of a staple too, though i find its DD set kinda easy to get rid of.

I'd write a bit more but I have class in like 2 hours x_x

If you don’t mind me asking, what is the bulky set spread for glimmora? Please and thank you :)