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The only alternative I can think of if we don't want to ban weather or ban Archuladon outright is to ban the use of the move Body Press and/or Electro shot. Banning Electro shot might be the answer we're looking for as it keeps Archuladon from boosting its special barring the use of choice specs. This would weaken Archuladon with or without the rain but it would still be very strong with the Stamina+Body Press combo plus its naturally great stats and typing. It would open Archaludon to being checked by more specially bulky ghost types, especially those that don't mind Earthquake like Sinistcha. Electro shot being unique to Archuladon also means that banning its use would not cause the kind of collateral damage to the metagame that banning body press would. I think banning the use of body press is an entirely separate conversation that needs to happen, but we can save that one for another day.
Signature moves being banned is entirely off the field, this conversation's happened multiple times for the likes of Rage Fist on Annihilape, Last Respects on Houndstone Pre-DLC and Shed Tail on Cyclizar (Before Orthworm usage). Moves have to prove to be broken on multiple users to stand a chance at getting banned.
Body Press is an entirely different discussion which I don't believe particularly holds merit, Archaludon is only a decent Body Press abuser due to the fact it has such an incredible special movepool to complement it, as well as covering steel types, which both it's stabs can't deal with.
I’m definitely going to ladder more to come to a conclusion. I’m always skeptical of banning Pokemon that are only broken under a specific weather or specific support, because they only appear broken as a result of taking up multiple team slots. With Archaludon in rain, yeah it’ll seem busted, but in those games you don’t need to counter Archaludon, you just need to counter rain. Sun is in a great spot in the meta due to the three Proto-Johto’s, hazards are in a great spot (which is good because they can be used to wear down Pelipper), and stall with unaware is in a good spot too. I think Snow and Sand are also being underutilized (if only ATales still had access to hypnosis…). I can definitely see a situation where, in a few weeks, as the meta adapts to rain, Archaludon becomes manageable.
But dang it is really strong. Even with all of these reservations, the mon is bonkers. When it gets going, it can’t be stopped. When counters are brought, Archaludon has answers. I need to play more to figure out my stance but I’m hesitantly leaning ban because, despite the heavy support requirements, this thing is bonkers.
Signature moves being banned is entirely off the field, this conversation's happened multiple times for the likes of Rage Fist on Annihilape, Last Respects on Houndstone Pre-DLC and Shed Tail on Cyclizar (Before Orthworm usage). Moves have to prove to be broken on multiple users to stand a chance at getting banned.
Body Press is an entirely different discussion which I don't believe particularly holds merit, Archaludon is only a decent Body Press abuser due to the fact it has such an incredible special movepool to complement it, as well as covering steel types, which both it's stabs can't deal with.
Appreciate the response! I'm just coming back to the forums and the competitive scene after being away for a while so I wasn't sure if banning signature moves was a no go. If that's the case then I'm on board with banning Archaludon.
Right now it's possible to break down rain quite easily:
- We know what Pelipper does. - Barraskewda is the preferred Swift Swim abuser largely due to having the strongest Flip Turn and doing the most damage to the relevant Water immunities with coverage. Alternatives include: Floatzel, which does much of the same and is much stronger vs fat at the cost of weakening your matchup vs Wellspring, Volcanion, and opposing Skewda rain. Basculegion, which is essentially Diet Floatzel because it's forced to run a Jolly nature for Booster Valiant and is slower than Boulder anyway, but does have the bonus of being ESpeed immune and having Head Smash for the water immunities. Kingdra, which is actually better off with CB than Specs imo, since the strong Flip Turn is a huge appeal, but it also needs Jolly and otherwise doesn't do much unique beyond Outrage. Qwilfish, which can do the same CB Flip Turn thing as all the others and additionally has the best Wellspring matchup while being a TSpike absorber, all great compression. It is weaker and requires a Jolly nature though. - Raging Bolt is a Water resist that actually threatens Water types and brings important priority to the team while also being an excellent breaker in its own right. Can be replaced with mons like Zapdos Kilowattrel, Thundurus-T - but they give up defensive value and essentially necessitate a Kingambit pairing to make up for the lost priority. - Iron Treads is typically the rocker and spinner mostly due to its Steel typing and great Speed giving it great "one-time" options. You can fit other mons here like Excadrill if you want something a bit more long-lasting. You usually also a want this slot to be a Ground type. - The bridge, which serves not only as rain's main breaker, but also as a key defensive centrepiece and trade artist. There really are very few Pokemon that can beat Archaludon if they have to switch into it; Clodsire manages by the skin of its teeth against most sets, and you can play dangerous games with stuff like Gliscor too but even if you get every turn right it's more than likely getting at least one KO. Rain has options like Enamorus or Hatterene that can extend Archa's life significantly and make it even tougher to deal with, and while the standard AV set is its go-to for good reason, it can be even more dangerous with item choices like Leftovers, Draco Plate, Metronome, Shuca / Chople Berry, or Salac Berry.
From here you have a filler character that can tech for whatever matchup you feel you're struggling with like Kingambit, Enamorus, Dragonite, Torn-T, Dragapult, a second Swift Swimmer, etc.
The star of the show here is Archaludon. It is literally the most irreplaceable mon on rain, even Pelipper is somehow more replaceable than Archaludon is. There's no other reasonable point to tackle if we want to make rain more reasonable to deal with; it certainly wasn't broken before Archaludon came along, and you'd be reaching to say it's broken with Archaludon gone because you lose your most consistent swiss army knife of wallbreaking, defensive utility, and trading.
If you think rain needs to be weakened, then you probably do want an Archaludon ban. Stuff like Damp Rock or Barraskewda isn't really hitting the core of the problem - the latter in particlar has multiple strong replacements that do its job well enough for it to really be an incredibly inconsequential hit. Now onto Archaludon itself:
The defensive counterplay just isn't there. Clodsire is a good counter to the standard AV set but beyond that it's dire city. Ting-Lu and Gliscor get smoked so there go your typical Electric checks, Glowking gets 2HKOd by Electro Shot outright and so does Gholdengo, Skeledirge doesn't have the bulk to tank it (and is bad anyway), Iron Treads and Excadrill tank the special move trio but get owned by Body Press, Heatran can't take Electro Shot, etc - there are just no splashable special checks to it, so either you have Clodsire or you're playing a dangerous game against it.
Offensively options open up a little more; pre-Tera there are a number of strong Fighting/Ground types like Zamazenta, Great Tusk, Iron Valiant, and Lando-T to put a dent in it, though they all lose to it in the process; post-Tera there's not much if it's got a Stamina boost, but there are a few attackers that can brute force it like Walking Wake and Gholdengo. It's a pretty short list overall though.
The elephant in the room is that for the most part this only applies in rain but that's only true to some extent; if Archaludon has already gotten some boosts while Rain was up, it doesn't really need it up anymore to continue being a threat. +2 Flash Cannons are still gonna hurt and +2 Draco is a bomb. It does mean you can check it with a couple other mons like Primarina though. This is contrary to previous weather-abuse suspect Walking Wake which was massively neutered when sun wasn't up; it doesn't help that Rain has a better matchup against the weather resetters and Pelipper itself is much more durable than Torkoal is too.
So in short, I think I'm leaning towards a ban on Archaludon. I don't feel like the counterplay is enough in the builder and something has got to relax with rain's power level. No other ban targets the right area compared to removing Archaludon, so I think we would be remiss to discuss options like Pelipper and Damp Rock and whatever else; the bridge is the problem, so tackle that.
Wow, all this "it's totally manageable just use Clodsire" is taking me back to the Espathra days! Not that Clodsire's even a counter - hopefully that Arch isn't Earthquake!
Assuming that I wind up getting reqs (which will be an uphill battle this time around), will be voting DNB.
Simply put, Arch is not the main catalyst behind rain being as strong as it is right now. Rain's power is a team effort, stemming from multiple abusers and soft synergies between its offensive partners. Pokemon such as Barraskewda dealing upwards of 80% damage to resist such as Dragapult, and Raging Bolt gaining psuedo STAB on a 100 BP Water move which it can use with virtual 0 opportunity cost to destroy the handful of answers to it are just few of many examples of Pokemon that push the playstyle over the edge. Is Archaludon one of the strongest members of rain? Yes! Is it entirely unique in how overpowered it is as a result of rain? Not quite.
For all the fear mongering about rain's winrate in SPL, there were multiple games where Archaludon didn't actually do all that much, despite the rain team winning in the end. Lets take a look at a few of them.
[SCO] Kushalos vs shiloh [WOL]
Arch gets crit by a Low Kick from Ogerpon and does nothing the entire game. Nonetheless, Kushalos was able to maintain a solid amount of Volturn pressure against kaladin's team throughout the match and was able to clutch out the match with a Barraskewda sweep.
[SHA] Mimikyu Stardust vs oldspicemike [RUI]
Arch accomplishes quite a bit here. Outspeeds and KOes Primarina + survives a Focus Blast from Iron Crown and deal a good bit of damage in return. However, a keen player will notice that a majority of the pressure in this match wasn't coming from Archaludon itself, but from Barraskewda's incredibly powerful Flip Turns, which oldspicemike used to maintain a powerful positional advantage against Mimikyu. This long term pressure did make it easier to eventually rack up big damage in the end-game once Landorus-T was removed from the board.
[CLA] Isza vs CTC [TYR]
Arch winds up checking Blaziken in the end-game with the combination of Tera Fairy + Rain to resist its STABs. The rain fortunately ended the following turn, as that allowed Archaludon to survive the following Hydro Steam and KO Walking Wake with Flash Cannon. That being said, most of the breaking in this match was performed by Raging Bolt, which was able to get a 2-1 trade vs Torkal, Dragapult, and Iron Treads, which it surprsied with Weather Ball. Despite its contribution to the endgame, I can't say it made much of an impact here, as CTC had other Routes to win. For example, Tera Water Aqua Jet in Rain -> Knock Out Blaziken -> chip wake, go to Valiant, win.
[RAI] DAHLI vs Shafofficiel [SHA]
Arch did not come out once. Most of the work in this match was from Raging Bolt, which was able to make a 2.5 mon trade early on using Weather Ball + Tera Fairy. Barraskewda and Dragapult used these trades to clean rather easily.
[RAI] Punny vs kumiko [SHA]
Arch's main contribution this match was forcing a Tera Ghost from Alolamola early on before being KOed in return by Mirror Coat. Kumiko was able to play a masterful game in order to win from this devastating initial positon (and I do commend their skill).
Now, this is just a meager sample size of the games from SPL. There were also a few games where Archaludon was able to completely pop-off and snowball out of control. However, to say that this was to a far greater calibur than what either Barraskewda or Raging Bolt could accomplish is disingenuise.
Archaludon's fundamental traits ensure that it can never be overpowered. Middling special bulk and speed all but mandate that it run Assault Vest into order to not be overwhelmed by the multitude of Special attackers in the tier such as Walking Wake and Kyurem. Its longevity is nil due to its vulnerability to Spikes (which are still incredibly difficult to remove). The amount of support it requires (between hazard removal, pivoting support, possibly Healing Wish, possibly Grassy Terrain, and Rain) to reach a broken level is ridiculously high, far greater than the average suspect. Many of its moves have common immunities that one can use to pivot into, which is espicially bad in a Tera metagame, and when Archaludon is operating under a limited number of rain turns.
I completely agree with the notion that the rain strategy as a whole is too strong, but I don't think banning Archaludon is the way to go in order to nerf it. Archaludon itself brings a lot of unique value to the tier, with its Stamina ability letting it punish commonly spammed attacks such as U-Turn, ExtremeSpeed, Triple Axel, and Flip Turn, and its general defensive profile being very unique and strong vs the dominant Pokemon in DLC1 such as Kingambit, Ogerpon-W, and Zapdos. It has a really cool role on G-Terrain teams, with it compressing a ton of utility between setting up rocks, gaining additional recovery, neutralizing its ground weakness somewhat in order to better handle threats such as Roaring Moon, Dragonite, Gliscor, etc. I personally would hate to lose this Pokemon considering the high amount of utility it can bring to a team.
Magcargo, i appreciate your post and admire you analyzing so many games to contribute to this discussion, and you raise some good points about raging bolt, especially with regards to its usage of weather ball. However I find a fundamental flaw with several of your replay analyses in that they're based on the lack of evidence, not evidence itself. I don't think "they didn't even send out Arch" is sufficient reason for a DNB because it doesn't get to the core of the issue which is what Archaludon does when it is sent out. Archaludon, through its defensive presence's ability to generate guaranteed free kills, is a form of guaranteed value, and these players chose not to cash in on it because they weren't in a game state where they needed to. The "but flip turn" argument is also of course null and void because Skewda's whole deal and what makes it such a threat isn't just the damage output, it's the ability to flip turn into arch who then survives anything and takes a stamina boost. The guaranteed value is what makes arch so broken and even in the games you show everything goes well for the arch player while arch is in, bar the match where it's crit; Arch is reliably achieving key mid game objectives to guarantee the win for its teammates. This bridge is the electric generator powering the greater rain teams. The playstyle is clearly an issue and arch serving as a virtually perfect Pokémon is the glue that enables that.
Right now it's possible to break down rain quite easily:
- We know what Pelipper does. - Barraskewda is the preferred Swift Swim abuser largely due to having the strongest Flip Turn and doing the most damage to the relevant Water immunities with coverage. Alternatives include: Floatzel, which does much of the same and is much stronger vs fat at the cost of weakening your matchup vs Wellspring, Volcanion, and opposing Skewda rain. Basculegion, which is essentially Diet Floatzel because it's forced to run a Jolly nature for Booster Valiant and is slower than Boulder anyway, but does have the bonus of being ESpeed immune and having Head Smash for the water immunities. Kingdra, which is actually better off with CB than Specs imo, since the strong Flip Turn is a huge appeal, but it also needs Jolly and otherwise doesn't do much unique beyond Outrage. Qwilfish, which can do the same CB Flip Turn thing as all the others and additionally has the best Wellspring matchup while being a TSpike absorber, all great compression. It is weaker and requires a Jolly nature though. - Raging Bolt is a Water resist that actually threatens Water types and brings important priority to the team while also being an excellent breaker in its own right. Can be replaced with mons like Zapdos Kilowattrel, Thundurus-T - but they give up defensive value and essentially necessitate a Kingambit pairing to make up for the lost priority. - Iron Treads is typically the rocker and spinner mostly due to its Steel typing and great Speed giving it great "one-time" options. You can fit other mons here like Excadrill if you want something a bit more long-lasting. You usually also a want this slot to be a Ground type. - The bridge, which serves not only as rain's main breaker, but also as a key defensive centrepiece and trade artist. There really are very few Pokemon that can beat Archaludon if they have to switch into it; Clodsire manages by the skin of its teeth against most sets, and you can play dangerous games with stuff like Gliscor too but even if you get every turn right it's more than likely getting at least one KO. Rain has options like Enamorus or Hatterene that can extend Archa's life significantly and make it even tougher to deal with, and while the standard AV set is its go-to for good reason, it can be even more dangerous with item choices like Leftovers, Draco Plate, Metronome, Shuca / Chople Berry, or Salac Berry.
From here you have a filler character that can tech for whatever matchup you feel you're struggling with like Kingambit, Enamorus, Dragonite, Torn-T, Dragapult, a second Swift Swimmer, etc.
The star of the show here is Archaludon. It is literally the most irreplaceable mon on rain, even Pelipper is somehow more replaceable than Archaludon is. There's no other reasonable point to tackle if we want to make rain more reasonable to deal with; it certainly wasn't broken before Archaludon came along, and you'd be reaching to say it's broken with Archaludon gone because you lose your most consistent swiss army knife of wallbreaking, defensive utility, and trading.
If you think rain needs to be weakened, then you probably do want an Archaludon ban. Stuff like Damp Rock or Barraskewda isn't really hitting the core of the problem - the latter in particlar has multiple strong replacements that do its job well enough for it to really be an incredibly inconsequential hit. Now onto Archaludon itself:
The defensive counterplay just isn't there. Clodsire is a good counter to the standard AV set but beyond that it's dire city. Ting-Lu and Gliscor get smoked so there go your typical Electric checks, Glowking gets 2HKOd by Electro Shot outright and so does Gholdengo, Skeledirge doesn't have the bulk to tank it (and is bad anyway), Iron Treads and Excadrill tank the special move trio but get owned by Body Press, Heatran can't take Electro Shot, etc - there are just no splashable special checks to it, so either you have Clodsire or you're playing a dangerous game against it.
Offensively options open up a little more; pre-Tera there are a number of strong Fighting/Ground types like Zamazenta, Great Tusk, Iron Valiant, and Lando-T to put a dent in it, though they all lose to it in the process; post-Tera there's not much if it's got a Stamina boost, but there are a few attackers that can brute force it like Walking Wake and Gholdengo. It's a pretty short list overall though.
The elephant in the room is that for the most part this only applies in rain but that's only true to some extent; if Archaludon has already gotten some boosts while Rain was up, it doesn't really need it up anymore to continue being a threat. +2 Flash Cannons are still gonna hurt and +2 Draco is a bomb. It does mean you can check it with a couple other mons like Primarina though. This is contrary to previous weather-abuse suspect Walking Wake which was massively neutered when sun wasn't up; it doesn't help that Rain has a better matchup against the weather resetters and Pelipper itself is much more durable than Torkoal is too.
So in short, I think I'm leaning towards a ban on Archaludon. I don't feel like the counterplay is enough in the builder and something has got to relax with rain's power level. No other ban targets the right area compared to removing Archaludon, so I think we would be remiss to discuss options like Pelipper and Damp Rock and whatever else; the bridge is the problem, so tackle that.
Ok, you kinda just hit the nail on the head, and everyone’s kinda convincing me that Arch should be banned, but still. There are plenty of threats to Arch’s reign, like Gliscor, Landorus-Therian, and Clodsire, who tanks every attack besides Dragon Pulse/Draco Meteor. If you resist every single one of Arch’s moves, you either have a free setup, a free KO, or make it be forced to switch out, losing all of its stat boosts by Stamina and Electro Shot. It’s also possible to counter it with surprise Sun or Snow, making it think it’s save to Electro Shot when all of a sudden it’s not Rain anymore, so they need an extra turn. Overall, Arch is a really strong Pokémon, but it still has counters. And if you Knock Off it’s Assault Vest with, say, Iron Treads, you can just use Earth Power and forget all about it, if you’re running Earth Power. You can also run Trick or Switcheroo, doing two things. One, getting rid of its Assault Vest, making it susceptible to Special attacks, and two, giving it a Choice item, crippling it to an extent
Ok, you kinda just hit the nail on the head, and everyone’s kinda convincing me that Arch should be banned, but still. There are plenty of threats to Arch’s reign, like Gliscor, Landorus-Therian, and Clodsire, who tanks every attack besides Dragon Pulse/Draco Meteor. If you resist every single one of Arch’s moves, you either have a free setup, a free KO, or make it be forced to switch out, losing all of its stat boosts by Stamina and Electro Shot. It’s also possible to counter it with surprise Sun or Snow, making it think it’s save to Electro Shot when all of a sudden it’s not Rain anymore, so they need an extra turn. Overall, Arch is a really strong Pokémon, but it still has counters. And if you Knock Off it’s Assault Vest with, say, Iron Treads, you can just use Earth Power and forget all about it, if you’re running Earth Power. You can also run Trick or Switcheroo, doing two things. One, getting rid of its Assault Vest, making it susceptible to Special attacks, and two, giving it a Choice item, crippling it to an extent
Tell me how easy Arch was to handle in this replay (I know I lost this battle. Barra was too hard to counter) (this team is the first team my friend, who is new to Gen 9, used, even though this is me battling): https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2054237491
And what about the Defense invest? How do you know it got that sooner? And what about my replay? And what about it’s -2 stat drop? It got crippled, too. All it has is a +1 or 2 Defense Body Press to go with, which won’t help it very much if it’s other moves are useless thanks to the -2 from Draco Meteor (that’s why I run Dragon Pulse. Weaker but doesn’t drop your Sp. Atk)
Tell me how easy Arch was to handle in this replay (I know I lost this battle. Barra was too hard to counter) (this team is the first team my friend, who is new to Gen 9, used, even though this is me battling): https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2054237491
No offense bro but this is literally an 1100s replay. Ofc arch is gonna be easy to deal with when they just let it get knocked for free, never click the broken move, and stay in on enamorus ep.
No offense bro but this is literally an 1100s replay. Ofc arch is gonna be easy to deal with when they just let it get knocked for free, never click the broken move, and stay in on enamorus ep.
Enam would’ve KO’d even if it got a Sp. Atk boost. And that team was built by a literal new person to Gen 9 (my friend), and it did that. I think it’s pretty good
This mon is literally everywhere on high ladder like what 1LDK said, it’s those five mons plus shitmon, every 5 games I play 1800-2000 is rain 3 out of 5 games. Arch is one of the broken mons that makes it unbearable to fight against, takes 1 or 2 with it or trades, if it gets a +1 even on a ground type, they Draco to kill or do major damage other then clod or ting lu. Then once you get pass that you gotta deal with the next broken mon Raging Bolt and if they didn’t use Tera well this guy will sweep. I use arch with my previous maus azu team with peli and I usually was able to get 2 kills or potentially sweep with low effort running 200 hp 252+ sp def and 56 speed to easily tank hits and then get my sp atk up for free without any investment. I will be voting ban and will be voting ban on every suspect test going forward, thank you very much.
This will be the last informal warning on the topic:
If you want to discuss Drizzle, Damp Rock, Raging Bolt, Barraskewda, etc., do so in the metagame discussion thread. Any further posts are just going to end up deleted and/or infracted.
If there is ever a world where Drizzle or Damp Rock get banned, abusers will be brought back into OU. However, that is not what this thread is about and it needs to stop going off topic.
Translation: Anyone who brings up valid criticism for the point of this suspect in the first place or offers alternative solutions to the problem at hand (those likely voting DNB for Arch) are not allowed to voice their opinion (which is conveniently contrary to the OU council's ban-happy position).
Translation: Anyone who brings up valid criticism for the point of this suspect in the first place or offers alternative solutions to the problem at hand (those likely voting DNB for Arch) are not allowed to voice their opinion (which is conveniently contrary to the OU council's ban-happy position).
Bruh, it is literally just so we stay on topic. I think Damp Rock should be banned, but this is not the thread for it. It is whether Arch is banworthy or not. It can be a subarguement, but you should talk about whether arch on its own is banworthy. Finch also literally states that you can talk about it in the metagame discussion thread, so he ain't try to disallow people voicing their opinions. Please do not post comments that try to degrade the OU council, that just makes you look bad.
Translation: Anyone who brings up valid criticism for the point of this suspect in the first place or offers alternative solutions to the problem at hand (those likely voting DNB for Arch) are not allowed to voice their opinion (which is conveniently contrary to the OU council's ban-happy position).
I literally quoted a rule that has existed for longer than 9/10 of the current council has been on the site and longer than all of ushave been on the council:
And I gave people a very active alternative to discuss the topic so that discussion could continue in the appropriate area.
Maybe do the slightest bit of due dilligence before claiming a volunteer is acting maliciously.
I don't really have time to do reqs(I've been meaning to get back into the tier more than I have been), but I've done a decent amount of laddering and I've come to the realization that while we can argue whether(or weather?)Arch is broken or not all day, one thing that is clear as day is that it constrains team building way more than anything healthy for the metagame should. It punishes even the slightest bit of passiveness with a monstrously strong suite of special attacks, especially in rain with EShot. Even outside of rain it's probably claiming one body and probably half of another mon too. Nice Clodsire, be a shame if it got EQ'd in the mouth. I think this mon is too much for the tier insomuch that while there are (bad)switchins and (bad)counterplay it's also a headache at the teambuilder too. I shouldn't have to force myself to run EP on Lando or other garbage moves if I want to have even a remote chance of handling this mon.
Then again all that's been said up above any amount of times so tl;dr ban this stupid bridge it violently constrains teambuilding in the metagame and that's not healthy for it.
Feelings are mixed and could probably change but for the time being I am currently leaning towards Ban.
I believe Archaludon outside of rain is an otherwise healthy and balanced mon, as it provides purpose as a strong, bulky Dragon capable of absorbing hits and taking out the other Dragons in the tier I find almost just as problematic
Unfortunately this does not justify its polarizing presence when it is on rain. Regardless of whatever is on the field, it has the potential to generate some form of value every turn with either Stamina or Electro Shot which creates a strenuous amount of pressure and incentivizes you to sometimes not even attack in certain positions in fear of further allowing it to snowball. What I think makes Archaludon especially great is its typing that has near perfect synergy with its ability; the majority of Fighting/Ground types are physical attackers, so after two boosts it essentially has no weaknesses. AV also patches up what would otherwise be mediocre special bulk and turns it into something that can eat up almost any type of neutral attack in OU. Combine all of this with already incredible base physical bulk and 125 special attack and you have a monster that can live long enough to usually take out at least 1-2 mons on its own, not even accounting for Tera
I personally think it’s far from the most problematic thing in the tier as its speed tier still leaves a lot to be desired and the main set has no form of recovery, but its offensive capabilities are still problematic nonetheless and I wouldn’t mind to see to it stay or go
Hello everyone, the OU tiering council has decided to test Archaludon!
Archaludon is one of the newest additions to the metagame, surfacing as an Indigo Disk washed up on the shores of Paldea this past December! DLC2 shot out like a cannon, electrifying the metagame with meteoric implications. After a slow start, Archaludon's Stamina proved worthwhile, fortifying it as one of the most reliable bodies to apply consistent pressure on Rain teams. Dealing draconian damage as the cornerstone of the metagame's most flashy archetype, it should be no surprise that Archaludon is among the biggest powerhouses in SV OU!
Regarding the decision and process, the SV OU council has determined that Archaludon is worthy of a suspect testing. This suspect is the result of a council consensus to act on Archaludon; it would be an abuse of power to push through a quickban without consulting the public at this specific stage in the metagame, but a suspect test allows for the playerbase to determine Archaludon's fate.
While it is true that Archaludon received only limited support during the last tiering survey, the metagame has shifted a lot over the last three weeks. Rain teams featuring Archaludon saw a substantial uptick in usage and effectiveness while metagame adaptations have hardly slowed down Archaludon's dominance. We will get more into the specifics of Archaludon's presence later in the post, but the intention is to keep surveys regular without abusing their place in tiering. Having a survey every other week, for example, is an overapplication of the process. Finding a comfortable middleground where they happen every month or even every six weeks allows for us to regularly check-in on the metagame's focal topics while still giving us room to tier when needed before, during, or after survey periods.
Ursaluna-Bloodmoon also received a suspect test despite low survey scores (nearly identical to that of Archaludon) after optimal applications of it surfaced in the metagame only after an initial survey. Of course, Archaludon is nowhere near as blatantly broken as Ursaluna-Bloodmoon, which received over 90% support to ban, but there has undoubtebly been a shift in the metagame and an outcry for some form of tiering action. This gives us the freedom to adapt our tiering process to a constantly adapting metagame while still letting the playerbase decide outcomes.
Regarding Archaludon's presence and suspect reasoning, Archaludon is a staple on Rain teams. You typically see it use a set featuring Electro Shot, a signature move that thrives in Rain. Electro Shot does not require a charging turn when it is Raining, deals damage reflecting the Special Attack boost the move gives, and comes off of a strong base power with the complimentary Electric type coverage. This paired with Draco Meteor and Flash Cannon allows for Archaludon to hit the vast majority of the metagame with special attacks alone. The combination of Stamina and Body Press allow for Archaludon to hit specific special walls like Blissey and Tyranitar or Steel types like Kingambit, Iron Treads, and Excadrill. Earthquake is also an option to hit these Pokemon aside from Blissey while also catching Clodsire, which is otherwise seen as the lone counter to Archaludon.
You frequently see Archaludon using Assault Vest, which helps bolster its otherwise lackluster special defense. This coupled with fantstic natural bulk on the physical end, a practical defensive typing, and Stamnia makes it very hard to take out. For reference, Archaludon is able to live Close Combat from Zamazenta, Draco Meteor from Choice Specs Kyurem, and multiple Earthquake from Gliscor all with its standard set before you account for it potentially exhausting a Tera. Add on to this the fact that it commonly utilizes Tera Fairy, which provides a near-perfect compliment to its Dragon/Steel typing, and you get a Pokemon that is incredibly challenge to kill quickly that is capable of snowballing out of control offensively. In addition, options such as Leftovers can provide direct health relief if players do not feel a need for Assault Vest, which you also can see with Grassy Terrain.
While Archaludon has lots going for it, it is by no means a perfect Pokemon. Archaludon is nowhere near broken outside of Rain, making it reliant on support to make Electro Shot variants thrive. This is beyond your normal support, too, as Pelipper is a lackluster Pokemon that is only used to set Rain after all. This forces Archaudon to only work in limited contexts which can, to a certain extent, be abused. Rain teams are only used so often and only allow for certain Pokemon to fit after all. With this in mind, Rain has been one of the most dominant styles when it has been used, destroying the ladder and tournament play. It has forced us to teambuild very differently, contributing to the metagame approaching numerous extremes as balances cannot withstand the oversaturation of threats. For reference, here is how effective Rain has been through the first chunk of the SPL (Smogon Premier League) season, which is seen as one of the best OU tournaments each year:
This is nowhere near the full story though. Pokemon that are this reliant on support can be productive, but they need to achieve a higher threshold of efficiency in a shorter window in order to prove worthwhile; this very much applies to Archaludon, who is at its best on Rain teams. These Rain teams can be beaten and we have seen people adapt to other facets of Rain, for example, with an uptick in Water Absorb Wellspring, Volcanion, and Clodsire for Barraskewda or the rise in other weathers within the metagame to disrupt Rain. However, not many of these adaptations aside from Clodsire have been able to account well for Archaludon, which continues to run rampant. Counterplay to Archaludon, which very much includes Clodsire, also can focus around other Electric immunities like Ruination or Whirlwind SDef Ting Lu, Iron Treads, faster Earth Power Landorus-T, or Sandy Shocks, who can all 1v1 Archaludon, but do not switch in safely, making them circumstantial checks if no Tera is involved in the exchange. You can see Blissey handle non-Body Press variants, SDef Skeledirge with the right Tera type stall out Archaludon if it times the sequence properly, or combinations of faster Pokemon applying offensive pressure minimizing Archaludon to just a few entries.
Overall, Archaludon is one of the scariest Pokemon to encounter in SV OU! It is able to withstand the vast majority of attacks while dealing strong, oftentimes boosted attacks that cover almost every possible Pokemon you can bring. It is incredibly reliant on Rain support, which is a limiting factor for any potential suspect, but Rain is at its peak right now. Special bulk is limited and the speed tier is middling, but Assault Vest and Stamina can help compensate for these shortcomings, allowing Archaludon to fire off numerous attacks more often than not. It will be interesting to see how the playerbase votes on Archaludon as it becomes the tenth suspect of the ninth generation!
Reading this is mandatory for participating in the suspect test!!! The voting requirements are a minimum GXE of 80 with at least 50 games played. In addition, you may play 1 less game for every 0.2 GXE you have above 80 GXE, down to a minimum of 30 games at a GXE of 84. Also, needing more than 50 games to reach 80 GXE will suffice.
GXE
minimum games
80
50
80.2
49
80.4
48
80.6
47
80.8
46
81
45
81.2
44
81.4
43
81.6
42
81.8
41
82
40
82.2
39
82.4
38
82.6
37
82.8
36
83
35
83.2
34
83.4
33
83.6
32
83.8
31
84
30
You must signup with a newly registered account on Pokemon Showdown! that begins with the appropriate prefix for the suspect test. For this suspect test, the prefix will be OUKU. For example, I might signup with the ladder account OUKU Finch.
Laddering with an account that impersonates, mocks, or insults another Smogon user or breaks Pokemon Showdown! rules may be disqualified from voting and infracted. Moderator discretion will be applied here. If there is any doubt or hesitance when making the alt, just pick another name. There are infinite possibilities and we have had trouble for this repeatedly. If you wish to participate in the suspect, you should be able to exhibit decent enough judgement here. We will not be lenient.
We will be using the regular OU ladder for this suspect test. We will not be creating a new Suspect Ladder. At the beginning of every battle, there will be an announcement denoting the ongoing suspect with a link to this thread.
The suspect being tested, Archaludon, will be allowed on the ladder.
Any form of voting manipulation will result in swift and severe punishment. You are more than welcome to state your argument to as many people as you so please, but do not use any kind of underhanded tactics to get a result you desire. Bribery, blackmail, or any other type of tactic used to sway votes will be handled and sanctioned.
Do not attempt to cheat the ladder. We will know if you did not actually achieve voting requisites, so don't do it. Harsh sanctions will be applied.
Unlike previous tests, we will be posting the voting identification thread immediately after this thread. Your voting requisites will be confirmed by a Council member or OU moderator, to which we will edit in confirmation. Please avoid getting more games before getting confirmed.
The suspect test will be lasting until Friday, February 16th at 11:59 pm (GMT-5), and then we will put up the voting thread in the Blind Voting subforum.
THIS IS A SLIGHTLY SHORTER TEST THAN NORMAL AS WE ATTEMPT TO BALANCE THE METAGAME AFTER THE RELEASE OF DLC2. PLEASE NOTE THIS WHEN PLANNING TO GET VOTING REQUIREMENTS!!!
This thread will be open to allow all users to share their thoughts on this suspect test and discuss with one another their thoughts. However, this thread will be strictly moderated, moreso than the average OU forum thread. Our moderators will apply discretion as to what is appropriate. You are not allowed to post about other potential suspects or bans. Please read and keep in mind the following before posting:
No unhelpful one liners nor uninformed posts;
No discussion on other potential suspects -- if you wish to discuss another Pokemon, we encourage you to do so in the metagame discussion thread, but this thread is strictly to discuss if Archaludon is banworthy or not;
No discussion on the suspect process -- this includes testing Archaludon vs other potential suspects;
You are required to make respectful posts;
You are required to read this thread before posting.
Failure to follow these simple guidelines will result in your post being deleted and infracted without any prior warning.
Please also take a moment to read over some suggestions from the OU Council and the OU Moderation team for posting in this thread; adhering these will help out our time moderating the thread and present your arguments better and more educated.
Do not argue because it's your favorite Pokemon. This should be common sense, but please don't do this, because we will delete posts like this.
You do not need a boatload of experience to have an informed opinion, but please try to minimize the theorymon aspect and use your experiences watching and playing. Playing some on the ladder before posting is plenty if you're concerned about this.
Do not flame, belittle, or be disrespectful to users in this thread. While not everyone will read this post in its entirety nor will everyone have an informed opinion, please be sure not to be disrespectful. If there's an issue, bring it up to a moderator.
Do not use the argument of broken checking broken. Should your argument rest on your opinion that banning the Pokemon or mechanic being tested in this suspect test will make a Pokemon or mechanic broken, overpowered, and/or uncompetitive; don't. If something needs to be banned because of the result this suspect, then so be it.
This thread is not to voice complaints about the suspect process or decisions of the council. While we are more than open to hearing complaints that may arise, this isn't the place for it. I suggest you message the OU Council, PM our Tier Leaders, Finchinator and Ruft, or make a post in Senior Staff requests, should you have a badge.
Should you have any questions about the suspect test, feel free to message the OU Council. And if you have any questions about the moderation of this thread, feel free to message the OU Forum Leaders. I am tagging Kris and Marty to let them know about this, too.
Keep in mind that our suspect tests are decided by the community; anyone who rightfully achieves voting requisites is allowed to vote. The outcome is up to you.
Basically, here’s the count (not including the idks but including the I thinks in a form of maybe):
Ban: 17-20
DNB: 10-14
Pm me if you have any complaints about where you are and tell me if you’re Ban, DNB, or Idk (you don’t know). And if you’re an I think or idk (PokefanKIV doesn’t know), you have to pm me
Basically, here’s the count (not including the idks but including the I thinks in a form of maybe):
Ban: 17-20
DNB: 10-14
Pm me if you have any complaints about where you are and tell me if you’re Ban, DNB, or Idk (you don’t know). And if you’re an I think or idk (PokefanKIV doesn’t know), you have to pm me
This is really not needed considering posters do not determine anything (and it ends up pinging everyone); you need to get voting requirements to ultimately participate.
This is really not needed considering posters do not determine anything (and it ends up pinging everyone); you need to get voting requirements to ultimately participate.
I just read that voting requirements thing (at least the very very top) and I saw OUKU. Im pretty sure I remember battling someone named OUKU. Was that you?
- We know what Pelipper does.
- Barraskewda is the preferred Swift Swim abuser largely due to having the strongest Flip Turn and doing the most damage to the relevant Water immunities with coverage. Alternatives include: Floatzel, which does much of the same and is much stronger vs fat at the cost of weakening your matchup vs Wellspring, Volcanion, and opposing Skewda rain. Basculegion, which is essentially Diet Floatzel because it's forced to run a Jolly nature for Booster Valiant and is slower than Boulder anyway, but does have the bonus of being ESpeed immune and having Head Smash for the water immunities. Kingdra, which is actually better off with CB than Specs imo, since the strong Flip Turn is a huge appeal, but it also needs Jolly and otherwise doesn't do much unique beyond Outrage. Qwilfish, which can do the same CB Flip Turn thing as all the others and additionally has the best Wellspring matchup while being a TSpike absorber, all great compression. It is weaker and requires a Jolly nature though.
- Raging Bolt is a Water resist that actually threatens Water types and brings important priority to the team while also being an excellent breaker in its own right. Can be replaced with mons like Zapdos Kilowattrel, Thundurus-T - but they give up defensive value and essentially necessitate a Kingambit pairing to make up for the lost priority.
- Iron Treads is typically the rocker and spinner mostly due to its Steel typing and great Speed giving it great "one-time" options. You can fit other mons here like Excadrill if you want something a bit more long-lasting. You usually also a want this slot to be a Ground type.
- The bridge, which serves not only as rain's main breaker, but also as a key defensive centrepiece and trade artist. There really are very few Pokemon that can beat Archaludon if they have to switch into it; Clodsire manages by the skin of its teeth against most sets, and you can play dangerous games with stuff like Gliscor too but even if you get every turn right it's more than likely getting at least one KO. Rain has options like Enamorus or Hatterene that can extend Archa's life significantly and make it even tougher to deal with, and while the standard AV set is its go-to for good reason, it can be even more dangerous with item choices like Leftovers, Draco Plate, Metronome, Shuca / Chople Berry, or Salac Berry.
Gliscor, 
Landorus-Therian, and 
Clodsire, who tanks every attack besides Dragon Pulse/Draco Meteor. If you resist every single one of 
Assault Vest with, say, 
a Choice item, crippling it to an extent
