¿Cloning is hacking?

[aznboi521]

It means that by the rules of the game nobody can have two exact pokes. It really gives advantage to the clonner because they can trade copies and try differente movesets, etc... It doesn't matter if a glitch in the game allows you to do that: you're not supposed to do it. By example, if a glitch in the game allows you to breed perfect IV pokes you'll argue that "it's in the game", and that "its not like you would breed something for a week?"

oh, the rules of the game?

can you list them?

-_-
and yes you can have 2 exact pokes ^_^ its all the possible

but i mean, alot of people want competitive pokemon, but dont have the time to breed all of that, so then they breed 1 poke with good iv's and what not

then they trade for more competitive pokes

it kinda defeats the purpose if you trade 1 for 1, when trying to complete your team

so then cloning would solve this dillemmia

just becz your a c loner means nothing, people open up cloning shops for services

you cant possibly say that you couldnt find a cloner, with so many available here

 

[Kijin]

As for "cloning is cheating", think about this for a sec.. A guy who innocently bought DP and is putting a pokemon on the GTS can accidently turn it off at the exact time needed to clone, he doesn't know he cheated, he just found a glitch, on accident. But no one can go to the store and buy an AR and use it to hack without knowing that they're cheating.

I'm calling bullshit. What about the countless number of people on GTS right this second searching for level 9 Palkia? You think they just happen to be trying to trade for an obviously hacked Pokemon for their "perfect" whatever and all just happen to accidentally turn off their DS's after the data is relayed to Nintendo but immediately before the data is re-received by the DS? I'm pretty sure none of that was going through my head the first time I successfully cloned my legit TRU Mew. And I'm pretty sure anyone who says otherwise is a liar and a communist.

Without clones, there wouldn't even be a trade board.no one would take the time to IV breed or EV train because they'd be making next to nothing off of it, and no one would have a fully trained ingame team built up. Competitive battling on wifi wouldn't exist, or if it did it would be a lot less developed than it is now.

Actually, there was a thread addressing this SAME issue not too long ago and I think it was locked (or people just ignored it after a few posts) about the Pokeconomy. If there was no cloning possible (or if the only way to clone was through AR, which would likely be considered illegitimate by the uninformed, unwashed masses), you would be forced to breed multiple well IV'd Pokemon (please don't kid yourself on this subject; a number of traders on the forums do this successfully in their trade threads. Their numbers are few, though.) to put up for trade. This would GREATLY raise the value of the MOST well IV'd Pokemon and there would actually be some kind of economy system outside of personal trade preference/how 1337 and likely miserly you feel about distributing Pokemon you hatch. Although HP breeding would be virtually non-existent in this imagined trade system (or they would literally be the Pokemon equivalent of hundred dollar bills), you would still very likely have the people willing to put in the time to breed multiple worthy copies for trade. You likely see a general decrease in the obscene quality of products available in the average trading thread. I think you're really underestimating people as this would be the ONLY way to do things. It's just difficult for you to imagine doing it because you've never really been in a scenario where it was absolutely impossible to clone and therefore trading necessitates breeding "copies."

I really think this issue doesn't warrant a full page or even 3 of debate-like discussion (as we're not talking about hacking up Pokes, merely using exploits to create copies of legitimate Pokemon); cloning in any form is exploiting the game and if you think that one method is "more righteous" or "less cheating," you are a hypocrite and need to get off your high horse. Like I said in my previous post, it's two paths to the same end result and, when wholly legitimate Pokemon are the only things involved, it's not going to negatively impact anyone's play experience or cause any kind of severe disadvantage in battle aside from the poor breeding you've done to your pokemon or the pokemon you've traded for.

Finally, of all the people saying cloning is hacking, how many have successful trade threads?

I do. And not for a single second do I try to justify myself. I believe everyone who engages in cloning in any sort is exploiting the game, which under a very purist sense is considered cheating. I also think that people should take the sticks out of their asses for trying to justify cloning as a wholly legitimate practice or that one form of cloning is more legitimate than the other; it isn't and they aren't.

 

[sniDer]

Kijin is right. Just acept that clonning is exploiting the game, you're making something that's not supposed to be possible. Using a AR to get legit pokemanz is the same, you're just saving time.

Of course that I understand the joy and the warm feeling of breeding stuff, finding the eggs moves, getting the TM, and so on... I just don't like to have to do it sixty more times to test my team: if I'm going to do something that exploit one glitch in the game, then I'm going to use the glitch that allow me to use AR and test my teams...

 

[Little Green Yoda]

Actually, there was a thread addressing this SAME issue not too long ago and I think it was locked (or people just ignored it after a few posts) about the Pokeconomy. If there was no cloning possible (or if the only way to clone was through AR, which would likely be considered illegitimate by the uninformed, unwashed masses), you would be forced to breed multiple well IV'd Pokemon (please don't kid yourself on this subject; a number of traders on the forums do this successfully in their trade threads. Their numbers are few, though.) to put up for trade. This would GREATLY raise the value of the MOST well IV'd Pokemon and there would actually be some kind of economy system outside of personal trade preference/how 1337 and likely miserly you feel about distributing Pokemon you hatch. Although HP breeding would be virtually non-existent in this imagined trade system (or they would literally be the Pokemon equivalent of hundred dollar bills), you would still very likely have the people willing to put in the time to breed multiple worthy copies for trade. You likely see a general decrease in the obscene quality of products available in the average trading thread. I think you're really underestimating people as this would be the ONLY way to do things. It's just difficult for you to imagine doing it because you've never really been in a scenario where it was absolutely impossible to clone and therefore trading necessitates breeding "copies."

Yes, the existence of cloning does saturate the Pokemarket with quality Pokemon. Things like shinies are even more overrated than before. The only possible downside to this is that the market will eventually reach a breaking point where everyone already has everything they want and trading ceases. But I don't think that will happen anytime soon, unless people decided to just give away great IV'd Pokemon to everyone who wants them.

 

[AgostonF]

I'm calling bullshit. What about the countless number of people on GTS right this second searching for level 9 Palkia? You think they just happen to be trying to trade for an obviously hacked Pokemon for their "perfect" whatever and all just happen to accidentally turn off their DS's after the data is relayed to Nintendo but immediately before the data is re-received by the DS? I'm pretty sure none of that was going through my head the first time I successfully cloned my legit TRU Mew. And I'm pretty sure anyone who says otherwise is a liar and a communist.

You really missed my point there. My point is that you can clone without outside help from different devices that are made for cheating, it's a glitch in the game, you aren't using outside help like the AR. A liar and a communist? Calm the fuck down buddy. Seriously.


Actually, there was a thread addressing this SAME issue not too long ago and I think it was locked (or people just ignored it after a few posts) about the Pokeconomy. If there was no cloning possible (or if the only way to clone was through AR, which would likely be considered illegitimate by the uninformed, unwashed masses), you would be forced to breed multiple well IV'd Pokemon (please don't kid yourself on this subject; a number of traders on the forums do this successfully in their trade threads. Their numbers are few, though.) to put up for trade. This would GREATLY raise the value of the MOST well IV'd Pokemon and there would actually be some kind of economy system outside of personal trade preference/how 1337 and likely miserly you feel about distributing Pokemon you hatch. Although HP breeding would be virtually non-existent in this imagined trade system (or they would literally be the Pokemon equivalent of hundred dollar bills), you would still very likely have the people willing to put in the time to breed multiple worthy copies for trade. You likely see a general decrease in the obscene quality of products available in the average trading thread. I think you're really underestimating people as this would be the ONLY way to do things. It's just difficult for you to imagine doing it because you've never really been in a scenario where it was absolutely impossible to clone and therefore trading necessitates breeding "copies."

Still, why shouldn't we use this glitch? It's sitting right there, asking to be abused. I think anyone who doesn't use the glitch and makes everything a hell of a lot harder for themselves is taking morals too seriously.

I really think this issue doesn't warrant a full page or even 3 of debate-like discussion (as we're not talking about hacking up Pokes, merely using exploits to create copies of legitimate Pokemon); cloning in any form is exploiting the game and if you think that one method is "more righteous" or "less cheating," you are a hypocrite and need to get off your high horse. Like I said in my previous post, it's two paths to the same end result and, when wholly legitimate Pokemon are the only things involved, it's not going to negatively impact anyone's play experience or cause any kind of severe disadvantage in battle aside from the poor breeding you've done to your pokemon or the pokemon you've traded for.


If you really feel that way I'm going to get nowhere trying to argue with you. I feel that exploiting something that the creators messed up with on the game isn't much of a problem, and you do. I think that's all that needs to be said here and we aren't changing each other's opinions, no matter how hard we try.


I do. And not for a single second do I try to justify myself. I believe everyone who engages in cloning in any sort is exploiting the game, which under a very purist sense is considered cheating. I also think that people should take the sticks out of their asses for trying to justify cloning as a wholly legitimate practice or that one form of cloning is more legitimate than the other; it isn't and they aren't.

Oh and snider, we aren't making anything that isn't impossible. It's completely possible to have two exact same pokemon.

 

[Kijin]

You really missed my point there. My point is that you can clone without outside help from different devices that are made for cheating, it's a glitch in the game, you aren't using outside help like the AR.

Ok. So your point is it's OK to exploit the game's code just so long as you don't use a device for exploiting game code to do the exact same thing?

So is posting a RMT hacking battalz because you're getting outside advice on something you should be learning from actual play experience? Buying a strategy guide hacking "the experience of figuring it out for yourself"?

A liar and a communist? Calm the fuck down buddy. Seriously.

lrn2sarcasm

Still, why shouldn't we use this glitch? It's sitting right there, asking to be abused. I think anyone who doesn't use the glitch and makes everything a hell of a lot harder for themselves is taking morals too seriously.

Considering I use the glitch/es myself in my trade thread, I'm not saying anyone shouldn't do anything. If you read my post, you'll actually find that I don't disagree with using cloning at all and support it, but that I find it distressing that others are above considering it exploiting/cheating the game when it's clearly just that and ESPECIALLY that there are actually divides within the community between people GTS cloning and people AR cloning WHEN YOU ARE DOING THE SAME FUCKING THING.

I feel that exploiting something that the creators messed up with on the game isn't much of a problem, and you do.

The tl;dr of my post is that I just want people on these forums to get over believing that what they're doing isn't some sort of exploit/hack. I have no problem using or having others use these or other exploits to clone Pokemon. I would be a hypocrite to do so, just as anyone else would be. Unless you're an Original Bad Ass and only breed your own 31/etc/'s and raise your own team without trading jack. Then you have every right to call us all a bunch of lame cheating pussies and run us over in your Original Bad Ass big rig.*


*It should be noted that ALL (every) Original Bad Ass owns, drives, and maintains a big rig.

 

[sniDer]

"Oh and snider, we aren't making anything that isn't impossible. It's completely possible to have two exact same pokemon. _________________"

No with the same ID :naughty:...

It's possible, but it's imposible since you can't do two things at the same time. Of course you can breed two exact IV, EV, moveset pokes, you cannot do it instantly that's what matters.

 

[sa17dk]

See this is the sentiment that I don't understand. Hacking and cloning aren't comparable at all. I don't have to go out to gamestop so I can buy something that lets me clone my pokemon (lol don't say anything about having to buy wireless internet). How would I normally not have this advantage? Because the game programmers didn't "mean" to leave cloning in? Who's to argue what should and should't be in the game?

So if I were to legitimately breed lets say a 31/31/25/25/31/31 Gible, and I hack (using an AR) 5 more with the exact same IVs/stats, would that be allowed?

 

[Kijin]

So if I were to legitimately breed lets say a 31/31/25/25/31/31 Gible, and I hack (using an AR) 5 more with the exact same IVs/stats, would that be allowed?

For a lot of people, that wouldn't be, because you "technically" didn't put in the effort to make those Gibles, they're just artificial pieces of game code generated by the Action Replay.

This is compared to the GTS glitch and AR cloning, which creates a copy of data already existing in your game which has been created legitimately (presumably).

I mean, this is a thread where some people are saying they don't want to deal with clones period, so any interaction or outside use of a cheating device to doctor anything, awesome, mediocre, existing, or otherwise, is probably crossing some line for someone in this thread. But this is coming from someone who doesn't care so long as it's possible in game without cheating (not probable).

No with the same ID :naughty:...

It's possible, but it's imposible since you can't do two things at the same time. Of course you can breed two exact IV, EV, moveset pokes, you cannot do it instantly that's what matters.

lulz4truth

 

[AgostonF]

Ok. So your point is it's OK to exploit the game's code just so long as you don't use a device for exploiting game code to do the exact same thing?

Yeah, that's pretty much what I'm saying. Is that so hard to understand?

So is posting a RMT hacking battalz because you're getting outside advice on something you should be learning from actual play experience? Buying a strategy guide hacking "the experience of figuring it out for yourself"?

No. You learn what you can figure out by yourself anyway from a strategy guide. And you can do shit you can't by just exploting glitches with an AR. You can't make wonderguard spiritombs with glitches, can you?

lrn2sarcasm

I'm sorry, but I don't think calling people communists is sarcasm. Fuck you. Haha, I was just being sarcastic.

Considering I use the glitch/es myself in my trade thread, I'm not saying anyone shouldn't do anything. If you read my post, you'll actually find that I don't disagree with using cloning at all and support it, but that I find it distressing that others are above considering it exploiting/cheating the game when it's clearly just that and ESPECIALLY that there are actually divides within the community between people GTS cloning and people AR cloning WHEN YOU ARE DOING THE SAME FUCKING THING.

When I mention "using the AR", I didn't mean cloning with it, I meant making stuff like wonderguard bidoofs or something. I never actually said that cloning with an AR is worse than cloning with the GTS glitch. I just mean when you make stuff like wonderguard bidoofs.


The tl;dr of my post is that I just want people on these forums to get over believing that what they're doing isn't some sort of exploit/hack. I have no problem using or having others use these or other exploits to clone Pokemon. I would be a hypocrite to do so, just as anyone else would be. Unless you're an Original Bad Ass and only breed your own 31/etc/'s and raise your own team without trading jack. Then you have every right to call us all a bunch of lame cheating pussies and run us over in your Original Bad Ass big rig.*

Yeah, no shit it's an exploit. The title isn't "Is cloning exploiting?" It's "Is cloning hacking?" It isn't hacking. You're not fucking around with code when you turn your DS off during trading pogeymen.


*It should be noted that ALL (every) Original Bad Ass owns, drives, and maintains a big rig.

YOU'RE WINNER!!!

 

[sniDer]

I think we all agree in some thing:

Clonning is not bad.
Hacking legit pokes is not bad (as long as you say it before battling).

Spiritomb with wonderguard is wrong (unless you're playing for fun).

I consider that tournaments should allow hacked legit pokemans, that would be great for the metagame, since the skill would rule over breeding. I can imagine threads of people offering their "pokemans making service". If you're going to say "but that would ruin the effort and time-spent for breeding", just imagine how much time you can save and use for testing teams and stuff like that...

 

[AgostonF]

Hacking legit pokes is bad in my opinion. That's really unfair, there'd be no point in working for anything, or breeding at all. You have no excuse for when someone spent weeks doing what you hacked up in 5 minutes. It's just plain bullshit.

 

[Kijin]

Yeah, that's pretty much what I'm saying. Is that so hard to understand?

Not any more than it is to understand me calling you a hypocrite for it.

And you can do shit you can't by just exploting glitches with an AR. You can't make wonderguard spiritombs with glitches, can you?

Yes, you can, but I fail to see what that has to do with using Action Replay to clone Pokemon.

Yeah, no shit it's an exploit. The title isn't "Is cloning exploiting?" It's "Is cloning hacking?" It isn't hacking. You're not fucking around with code when you turn your DS off during trading pogeymen.

Exploiting a system or rules in some senses is no different than cheating in many senses, at least that seems to be the case for the OP. I think we see eye to eye that using the GTS glitch and AR to clone are one in the same.

I completely agree with you that if you don't want to think of either as a hack, then there's no real problem with that. However, the thread was started on the principle that cloning == hacking. If the issue is looked at from that standpoint (or even the exact opposite), cloning with a device and cloning with a WLAN light on a router isn't really different at all. Many users in the thread seem to believe it is. I feel they are mistaken.

 

[AgostonF]

Not any more than it is to understand me calling you a hypocrite for it.

Alright, whatever. call me a hypocrite.
Yes, you can, but I fail to see what that has to do with using Action Replay to clone Pokemon.

Please point out to me exactly how you can make a wonderguard spiritomb without using an AR.

Exploiting a system or rules in some senses is no different than cheating in many senses, at least that seems to be the case for the OP. I think we see eye to eye that using the GTS glitch and AR to clone are one in the same.

Yes, it's true cloning with them are pretty much the same, or produce the same results, but you can't tell me that cloning with the GTS glitch is the same as making wondertombs.

I completely agree with you that if you don't want to think of either as a hack, then there's no real problem with that. However, the thread was started on the principle that cloning == hacking. If the issue is looked at from that standpoint (or even the exact opposite), cloning with a device and cloning with a WLAN light on a router isn't really different at all. Many users in the thread seem to believe it is. I feel they are mistaken.

Cloning with the AR and cloning with the GTS glitch aren't different, but as I said one quote up, cloning with the GTS glitch and using the AR for almost anything other than cloning is different.

 

[sa17dk]

Hacking legit pokes is bad in my opinion. That's really unfair, there'd be no point in working for anything, or breeding at all. You have no excuse for when someone spent weeks doing what you hacked up in 5 minutes. It's just plain bullshit.

But you see, no one cares about breeding. Yes, maybe in another website, but because you are on the website for competitive battling, why should breeding even matter in the first place.

I'm not trying to say that youre not allowed to breed here or anything. I'm merely trying to point out that competitive battling is the first priority and the main focus here.

 

[AgostonF]

The trading boards say hello, sa17dk.

 

[marrilpet]

I consider that tournaments should allow hacked legit pokemans, that would be great for the metagame, since the skill would rule over breeding. I can imagine threads of people offering their "pokemans making service". If you're going to say "but that would ruin the effort and time-spent for breeding", just imagine how much time you can save and use for testing teams and stuff like that...

No. Just no. If you want to do this, take it to Shoddy or Competitor (when it comes out).

 

[QibingZero]

I consider that tournaments should allow hacked legit pokemans, that would be great for the metagame, since the skill would rule over breeding. I can imagine threads of people offering their "pokemans making service". If you're going to say "but that would ruin the effort and time-spent for breeding", just imagine how much time you can save and use for testing teams and stuff like that...

I agree with your sentiment in this thread, but I think you're missing something here. The official Nintendo tournaments are what is considered 'within the true spirit of the game'. Whether or not we agree with that (which we generally don't, since we clause various things) doesn't matter. Of course these tournaments will never have the type of competition that we would hope for, but, and this is the key point, they include participation in every aspect of the game - including and especially the hours and hours spent creating or finding a unique pokemon.


And that's the key problem with the argument that cloning is completely different from hacking. You can't have the best of both worlds. You can't have that great pokemon without going through the hassle and still have it come with the 'purity' of one you bred for and raised yourself.

If you're willing to stand up and say that cloning is perfectly okay but hacking should be looked down upon, you open yourself up to attacks from both sides. On one side you have people who feel you're not playing to the true spirit of the game, and on the other side you have people who think you're simply a hypocrite for bashing something nearly identical to what you're praising. Frankly, I'm willing to stand up for both sides and agree with Kijin in telling you to get off your damn high horse.

 

[sniDer]

Hacking legit pokes is bad in my opinion. That's really unfair, there'd be no point in working for anything, or breeding at all. You have no excuse for when someone spent weeks doing what you hacked up in 5 minutes. It's just plain bullshit.

There would be point in working testing your teams. I would prefer spending time battling and improving my skills than pressing up and down in my old DS...

"You have no excuse for when someone spent weeks doing what you hacked up in 5 minutes. It's just plain bullshit." You have no excuse for when someone spent weeks breeding a second poke for trade doing what you clonned up in 5 minutes.

 

[sniDer]

No. Just no. If you want to do this, take it to Shoddy or Competitor (when it comes out).

You only say that because your trading thread and your infinite hours of breeding became nothing if we agree that competitive battle is all about skill.

I understand why you like to breed, it's a very nice warm felling that you're doing something right, but you should be more cold when thinking in hardcore competitive battling.

 

[marrilpet]

For the record, I don't have a trading thread.

But if WiFi becomes nothing battles of max IV'd Pokes, where's the fun in that over a simulator. Why don't we all just chuck our games in the garbage and use Shoddy from now on? The end result is the same, one just has better graphics.

 

[sa17dk]

The trading boards say hello, sa17dk.

I already use the trading boards. That doesnt change the fact that competitive level battling is more important.

 

[AgostonF]

How much time Marrilpet spent on breeding has absolutely nothing to do with how good he does in a battle, infact, I believe you do better if you breed. Breeding shows you know what each pokemon is for, etc, etc. Why should we be more cold? What the hell? That makes no sense. Seriously.

And yeah, I do have an excuse for when someone bred more pokemon when I cloned them. Both of us worked hard, and it's not my fault the other guy doesn't utilize everything and take cloning to his advantage. I worked hard, I didn't just hack the pokemon up with an AR. And what makes you think that just because I take time to breed I don't actually fucking battle? I mean, you can do both at the same time. I go on shoddy ALOT. Pretty much half my weekend is spent on shoddy. Sheesh, don't think you can judge people that easily.

 

[sniDer]

How much time Marrilpet spent on breeding has absolutely nothing to do with how good he does in a battle,
When I said that? I just say that you'll have a lot of more time for battle...

infact, I believe you do better if you breed. Breeding shows you know what each pokemon is for, etc, etc.
Yeah? The same goes for hacking.


Why should we be more cold? What the hell? That makes no sense. Seriously.
Just like in póker, dude. You have to make feelings aside: If you can have the best pokeman possible in the less time aviable, Why not? If you have to keep out of your team your favorite poke because it gives you more weakeness, you have to do it. Still, I like my dragon-only-team.


And yeah, I do have an excuse for when someone bred more pokemon when I cloned them. Both of us worked hard, and it's not my fault the other guy doesn't utilize everything and take cloning to his advantage.
Yeah? I also worked very hard for purchasing a AR so I can save up time: "it's not my fault the other guy doesn't utilize everything and take HACKING to his advantage."

I worked hard, I didn't just hack the pokemon up with an AR. And what makes you think that just because I take time to breed I don't actually fucking battle? I mean, you can do both at the same time. I go on shoddy ALOT. Pretty much half my weekend is spent on shoddy. Sheesh, don't think you can judge people that easily. I don't say that. Read well.

 

[Steven718]

If you don't give a shit about breeding, take it to Shoddy, this is a competitive website but the concept of Pokemon is a complete game, which includes breeding and training, is that not part of being competitive?

You are using it as an excuse to give you an edge over people who don't hack. Plain and simple, otherwise you would have no problem with leaving it alone and playing on a sim, where your unfair advantage is diminished.