Metagame 1v1 Metagame Discussion

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Sleep FAQ:

  • Q: "Being ko'd prevents me from doing anything, too, why should I care about Sleep?"
    • A: Being ko'd is a matter of Pokemon, with regards to type effectiveness, move base power, EVs, etc. Being put to sleep is a matter of moves and items, in that countering Sleep is not something that can be done with type effectiveness (besides Grass > Powder), move base power, or EVs (besides Speed). Prepping for Sleep is done in a way that acts almost completely regardless of the Pokemon being used to counter Sleep, in the same way many Pokemon in Balanced Hackmons often have to run Safety Goggles, Poison Heal, Misty Terrain, or some other thing in order to handle the highly present risk of being put to sleep, the mon doesn't matter. Does this fact automatically make Sleep banworthy? No, I just want to make it clear that it is not comparable to being ko'd.
  • Q: "Anything beats you if you don't prepare for it, why should I care about Sleep?"
    • A: People often say this without considering the implications of the slippery slope that it creates. To what extent is it acceptable to not be prepared for something? You can beat Koko with Ground types, and Deoxys-Attack with priority, surely that makes them both fine, right? This is the inherent problem, every individual interpreting this mentality ends up having to subjectively draw some kind of line as to where the logic ends and things need to be banned.
    • A2: Secondly, this logic is only ever considered from the perspective of something being broken, when the issue at hand is whether or not Sleep is uncompetitive. To make the difference between broken and uncompetitive clear, consider the analogy of a fistfight:
      • Putting a boxing champion against a high school student is unfair. While the boxer still abides by the rules of the fistfight, they have a clear advantage over the high school student. The boxer in this scenario can thus be considered broken.
      • Bringing a gun to a fistfight is unfair. While the gun can be countered by bringing a bulletproof shield, it transforms the very definition of what a fistfight even means, if left unchecked, as it makes the fight moreso about having the right equipment, rather than being a strong or skilled fighter. The gun in this scenario can thus be considered uncompetitive.
    • This same kind of logic can be applied to Perish Song, where it wasn't really difficult to prepare for it, just that you were required to have the right "equipment" in order to deal with it. That said, this isn't inherent grounds for a ban, either, simply just a showcasing that Sleep and its effects should not be compared to traditional mons.
  • Q: "Why is Sleep being discussed when moves like Zap Cannon and Focus Blast also rely on RNG?"
    • A: With regards to the Focus Blast kind of "reliance" on RNG, Sleep is principally different. First and foremost, Focus Blast has mostly RNG that can only ever work against the one using it. Meanwhile, Sleep mostly consists of RNG that works against the opponent, in the form of sleep rolls. A more accurate Focus-Blast-to-Sleep comparison would be Focus Blast's 10% chance of dropping Special Defense, as that is RNG that works against the opponent.
    • A2: With regards to the Zap Cannon kind of "reliance" on RNG, Sleep can be compared, here. However, there is still a crucial difference between Sleep and moves that have RNG that can work against the opponent in that the latter is only ever going to be relevant for certain matchups. For example, you only ever need Zap Cannon on Magnezone for things like Rock Tomb Heatran, Naganadel, Charizard-X, etc, whereas Sleep is used for almost everything. On the grand scale of everything that inflicts forced RNG against opponents, Sleep is easily one of the highest things out there, outweighing crits, freezes, flinches, burns, paras, and more, in addition to actually being relevant in a much larger number of scenarios than any of the other items listed.
If there are any obvious questions regarding Sleep that I missed, be sure to let me know.
 
Prepping for Sleep is done in a way that acts almost completely regardless of the Pokemon being used to counter Sleep, in the same way many Pokemon in Balanced Hackmons often have to run Safety Goggles, Poison Heal, Misty Terrain, or some other thing in order to handle the highly present risk of being put to sleep,
This is a bad comparison. Most viable pokemon in 1v1 don’t learn a sleep move, however in BH, everything can learn spore

Bringing a gun to a fistfight is unfair. While the gun can be countered by bringing a bulletproof shield, it transforms the very definition of what a fistfight even means, if left unchecked, as it makes the fight moreso about having the right equipment, rather than being a strong or skilled fighter. The gun in this scenario can thus be considered uncompetitive.
This is a bad comparison. Viable pokemon can beat each sleep user. An example of a “bulletproof shield” would be something like Gourgeist, which is a tech specifically for sleep mons such as jumpluff and vivi. However, these pokemon lose to Zard Y and Zard X with flame charge, which is a viable move on a viable pokemon. this isn’t a bulletproof shield. The “gun” (sleep) didn’t make me bring Zard, I brought zard because it’s good. You don’t have to go out of your way to beat sleep users.


Stop grouping these pokemon please. They have different matchup spreads, characteristics, and win conditions.

Putting a boxing champion against a high school student is unfair. While the boxer still abides by the rules of the fistfight, they have a clear advantage over the high school student. The boxer in this scenario can thus be considered broken.
If this is referring to sleep, it’s a bad comparison, if it isn’t, it’s a good comparison. Jumpluff/Gengar/Vivi aren’t top tiers, so they shouldn’t be compared to the boxing champion.

On the grand scale of everything that inflicts forced RNG against opponents, Sleep is easily one of the highest things out there
Most Sleep users don’t rely heavily on RNG, using substitutes to mitigate the effects of turn 1 wakes.

Sleep is not something that can be done with type effectiveness (besides Grass > Powder), move base power, or EVs (besides Speed)
There are Base stat thresholds for surviving hits. For example Blitzle can’t ev for Zard X flare blitz, however it can ev to outspeed smeargle. Why would investing in 1 stat as opposed to 1 or 2 stats cause a fundamental difference. There are pokemon that can invest to beat Sleep users, but can’t invest to beat Pokemon that attack them. Pheromosa can Invest to outspeed Jumpluff, but can’t invest to stop Charizard X from killing it.

This works in the reverse, as Slowbro can’t invest to outspeed and beat jumpluff, however it can invest to beat non belly drum zardx.

Sleep users in general tend to act as speed traps.

This requires a certain base stat threshold (76,111,131) however they can be circumvented by certain pokemon, and if that couldn’t be circumvented, the speed traps WOULD be uncompetitive.

Thank you for your time, ban dark void, free my mans dire strait.
 
This is a bad comparison. Most viable pokemon in 1v1 don’t learn a sleep move, however in BH, everything can learn spore
Comparison aside, preparations are still the same, being regardless of the Pokemon using the anti-sleep elements.
This is a bad comparison. Viable pokemon can beat each sleep user. An example of a “bulletproof shield” would be something like Gourgeist, which is a tech specifically for sleep mons such as jumpluff and vivi. However, these pokemon lose to Zard Y and Zard X with flame charge, which is a viable move on a viable pokemon. this isn’t a bulletproof shield. The “gun” (sleep) didn’t make me bring Zard, I brought zard because it’s good. You don’t have to go out of your way to beat sleep users.

Stop grouping these pokemon please. They have different matchup spreads, characteristics, and win conditions.
While Zard is good, mandating its use on every team because of Sleep is not something we should be forcing people to do, much like people shouldn't have to fear the threat of a gun at every fistfight and have to bring a shield to every fight as a result of it.
While the sets of each Sleep user are different in composition, they ultimately all rely on fishing for Sleep turns in order to set up either guaranteed or at least favorable win conditions.
If this is referring to sleep, it’s a bad comparison, if it isn’t, it’s a good comparison. Jumpluff/Gengar/Vivi aren’t top tiers, so they shouldn’t be compared to the boxing champion.
It is not. It is referring to something absurdly broken akin to Groudon or something.
Most Sleep users don’t rely heavily on RNG, using substitutes to mitigate the effects of turn 1 wakes.
Referring to Sleep rolls, rather than the users. Whether or not usage of sleep users should matter is an entirely different and probably completely subjective debate.
There are Base stat thresholds for surviving hits. For example Blitzle can’t ev for Zard X flare blitz, however it can ev to outspeed smeargle. Why would investing in 1 stat as opposed to 1 or 2 stats cause a fundamental difference. There are pokemon that can invest to beat Sleep users, but can’t invest to beat Pokemon that attack them. Pheromosa can Invest to outspeed Jumpluff, but can’t invest to stop Charizard X from killing it.

This works in the reverse, as Slowbro can’t invest to outspeed and beat jumpluff, however it can invest to beat non belly drum zardx.

Sleep users in general tend to act as speed traps.

This requires a certain base stat threshold (76,111,131) however they can be circumvented by certain pokemon, and if that couldn’t be circumvented, the speed traps WOULD be uncompetitive.

Thank you for your time, ban dark void, free my mans dire strait.
I yielded the point to being able to EV for Sleep (even if only for Speed).

Everyone has their own definitions of what "circumventing" means, so the point is moot.
 
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Comparison aside, preparations are still the same, being regardless of the Pokemon using the anti-sleep elements.
Preparation in Hackmons cannot be compared to preparation in Standard Formats. In BH, every pokemon can run spore or sleep powder or whatever, in standard formats, it’s a number less than 800 of pokemon that can run it. Preparation is also fundamentally different in BH as it is a 6v6 meta with more options. Each turn in 1v1, you have a maximum of 6 Options. Move 1,2,3,4 mega/z, forfeit. In 6v6, you have 5 more options, switching. Sleep is dangerous in BH because it allows a pokemon to let its teammate do something, and can force the opponent to switch.

“Regardless of the pokemon using the sleep elements”
No. This is BH we’re talking about. There is a specific number of pokemon that naturally learn a sleep move in standard formats, however in BH, they can pull out lovely kiss Mega Mewtwo X with specs. The difference is in predictability. You have no way of knowing if the Pokemon your opponent has will use or is likely to use a sleep inducing move at team preview, unlike in 1v1, where that is not the case.

While Zard is good, mandating its use on every team because of Sleep is not something we should be forcing people to do, much like people shouldn't have to fear the threat of a gun at every fistfight and have to bring a shield to every fight as a result of it.
Should have been more clear here. oh he brought a pokemon that beats jumpluff/Gengar/smeargle/vivi. Zard was an example of a pokemon that beats Jumpluff and Vivillon, not the rule.

Everyone has their own definitions of what "circumventing" means, so the point is moot.
In this situation, circumventing means winning despite the opponent being able to use sleep strategies, so the point isn’t moot.

I yielded the point to being able to EV for Sleep (even if only for Speed).
This doesn’t matter, I was making the point that there is no fundamental difference between being able to use 504 Evs to invest for something and 252 Evs to invest for something.

While the sets of each Sleep user are different in composition, they ultimately all rely on fishing for Sleep turns in order to set up either guaranteed or at least favorable win conditions.
Fishing is a bad word here when pokemon like Smeagle, Breloom, and Vivillon just use high accuracy moves and substitute to make sleep turns statistically irrelevant. Vivi will NOT get 1 minimum turn 1 sleeps less than 1 time out of 200 if you hit each 97.5% accurate sleep powder.

What I meant by this was that you shouldn’t group them as: “A pokemon needs to beat all of them” instead, acknowledging that different (viable) pokemon beat different sleep users.
 
Preparation in Hackmons cannot be compared to preparation in Standard Formats. In BH, every pokemon can run spore or sleep powder or whatever, in standard formats, it’s a number less than 800 of pokemon that can run it. Preparation is also fundamentally different in BH as it is a 6v6 meta with more options. Each turn in 1v1, you have a maximum of 6 Options. Move 1,2,3,4 mega/z, forfeit. In 6v6, you have 5 more options, switching. Sleep is dangerous in BH because it allows a pokemon to let its teammate do something, and can force the opponent to switch.

“Regardless of the pokemon using the sleep elements”
No. This is BH we’re talking about. There is a specific number of pokemon that naturally learn a sleep move in standard formats, however in BH, they can pull out lovely kiss Mega Mewtwo X with specs. The difference is in predictability. You have no way of knowing if the Pokemon your opponent has will use or is likely to use a sleep inducing move at team preview, unlike in 1v1, where that is not the case.
I'm talking about how you prep for being put to sleep, not the mons using the moves or any other part of BH's general set composition. In BH, people commonly bring Safety Goggles, Poison Heal, and Misty Terrain, due to the threat of being put to sleep. How is this not similar to 1v1, where people bring Taunt and Flame Charge to handle the risk of being put to sleep? Both scenarios require the use of elements external to the pokemon using them, because the pokemon using them does not matter, and that is the only point I'm trying to make with the comparison, since being ko'd does place importance on the pokemon involved in each scenario.
In this situation, circumventing means winning despite the opponent being able to use sleep strategies, so the point isn’t moot.
Disagree, many mons that can "circumvent" speed traps, despite being slower, can often end up relying on not getting sleep rolled in order to perform said "circumventing", an example of this being Taunt Heatran vs Jumpluff, where the Jumpluff user can very easily use Protect on the turn Heatran wakes up, and end up putting them back to sleep. While there are certain reacharounds that can reliably beat Sleep despite being slower (namely Hoopa-Unbound, for example), I simply don't think that these are enough to discredit the uncompetitive quality of speed traps. That said, because this is ultimately a matter of opinion as to how much circumventing is "enough" circumventing, the point is moot.
Fishing is a bad word here when pokemon like Smeagle, Breloom, and Vivillon just use high accuracy moves and substitute to make sleep turns statistically irrelevant. Vivi will NOT get 1 minimum turn 1 sleeps less than 1 time out of 200 if you hit each 97.5% accurate sleep powder.

What I meant by this was that you shouldn’t group them as: “A pokemon needs to beat all of them” instead, acknowledging that different (viable) pokemon beat different sleep users.
Speed traps can absolutely still fish for sleep turns, namely against slower taunt users that they need to get as many extra turns in against as possible before being able to safely be taunted.

Replace pokemon with player. A single mon definitely isn't going to beat every sleep user. A team, however, should, and that's the ultimate problem to be had with sleep, because a team prepped to handle all possible outcomes involving sleep users is very often going to be a disadvantage vs anything else, in the same way a team prepped to handle a Baton Pass team in OU (before it was banned) would be hindered against any other standard team, which is the very definition of what it means for an element to be uncompetitive.
 
In BH, people commonly bring Safety Goggles,
Safety Goggles serve no purpose besides preventing spore

Flame Charge and Taunt are generally good moves, and are not only used to beat users of sleep strategies, to say that they are only used to beat users of sleep strategies [akin to safety goggles in BH] would be patently false.

Both scenarios require the use of elements external to the pokemon using them, because the pokemon using them does not matter,
Movepools are not external to the Pokemon in standard formats, they are external to the Pokemon in BH, as no learnset is tied to any specific pokemon.

6v6 BH is, and always will be, a bad comparison to 1v1 Non BH, the metagames are fundamentally different and focus on different things.

Even with Flame Charge, Tepig isn't beating jumpluff, and even with taunt, Timburr loses to whimsicott, so the Pokemon using them DOES matter.

I'm talking about how you prep for being put to sleep, not the mons using the moves or any other part of BH's general set composition.
In BH, you have to prep for being put to sleep, as anything can put you to sleep. In 1v1, a limited number of pokemon can put you to sleep, so it's more efficient to use pokemon that beat the limited and known users of sleep. In BH, the mon using the move is irrelevant, as any pokemon can use any move, but in 1v1, the mon using the move is relevant, as not every mon can use every move.

Replace pokemon with player.
This is my exact point, this wasn't a ban/no ban argument, I just want people to acknowledge that they are different and separate things to prep for

Disagree, many mons that can "circumvent" speed traps, despite being slower, can often end up relying on not getting sleep rolled in order to perform said "circumventing", an example of this being Taunt Heatran vs Jumpluff, where the Jumpluff user can very easily use Protect on the turn Heatran wakes up, and end up putting them back to sleep.
Many also don't care about sleep turns, such as Rock Blast Stakataka beating Vivillon regardless of how many turns its asleep.

That said, because this is ultimately a matter of opinion as to how much circumventing is "enough" circumventing, the point is moot.
The point, I will reiterate, is not moot, as there are pokemon that, regardless of sleep turns or speed (sable/cloyster/hoopU), beat faster sleep users. The sole existence of these was the only point I was initially making here, not that all or many can do it.


Speed traps can absolutely still fish for sleep turns,
I wasn't bringing up these Pokemon as speed traps, I was bringing them up as Pokemon who utilize high to perfect accuracy sleep moves along with substitute to get rid of the rng aspects of turn 1 wakes
 
Safety Goggles serve no purpose besides preventing spore

Flame Charge and Taunt are generally good moves, and are not only used to beat users of sleep strategies, to say that they are only used to beat users of sleep strategies [akin to safety goggles in BH] would be patently false.



Movepools are not external to the Pokemon in standard formats, they are external to the Pokemon in BH, as no learnset is tied to any specific pokemon.

6v6 BH is, and always will be, a bad comparison to 1v1 Non BH, the metagames are fundamentally different and focus on different things.

Even with Flame Charge, Tepig isn't beating jumpluff, and even with taunt, Timburr loses to whimsicott, so the Pokemon using them DOES matter.



In BH, you have to prep for being put to sleep, as anything can put you to sleep. In 1v1, a limited number of pokemon can put you to sleep, so it's more efficient to use pokemon that beat the limited and known users of sleep. In BH, the mon using the move is irrelevant, as any pokemon can use any move, but in 1v1, the mon using the move is relevant, as not every mon can use every move.



This is my exact point, this wasn't a ban/no ban argument, I just want people to acknowledge that they are different and separate things to prep for



Many also don't care about sleep turns, such as Rock Blast Stakataka beating Vivillon regardless of how many turns its asleep.



The point, I will reiterate, is not moot, as there are pokemon that, regardless of sleep turns or speed (sable/cloyster/hoopU), beat faster sleep users. The sole existence of these was the only point I was initially making here, not that all or many can do it.
We covered pretty much everything addressed here in discord, though for the people who didn't see that conversation, we reached the main points of:
  • In BH, anything can both run AND counter Sleep, while in 1v1, not everything can run or counter Sleep
  • Whether or not there are enough viable counters to Sleep such that a team that counters Sleep wouldn't be at a disadvantage against any other team is a matter of opinion, hence the need for a suspect test to amass the opinions of everyone who qualifies.
That said-
I wasn't bringing up these Pokemon as speed traps, I was bringing them up as Pokemon who utilize high to perfect accuracy sleep moves along with substitute to get rid of the rng aspects of turn 1 wakes
This is literally what a speed trap is, and does- unless this was yet another point that I missed
 
A single mon definitely isn't going to beat every sleep user. A team, however, should, and that's the ultimate problem to be had with sleep, because a team prepped to handle all possible outcomes involving sleep users is very often going to be a disadvantage vs anything else, in the same way a team prepped to handle a Baton Pass team in OU (before it was banned) would be hindered against any other standard team, which is the very definition of what it means for an element to be uncompetitive.
Okay, so I didn’t think I was going to reply to this thread again, but after reading this I felt like I would. If you can’t counter any given set of pokemon in the meta with your team, get a better team! You can, and with equal fallacy and perhaps more accuracy, call for a ban on Dragon Dance instead of, say, sleep powder. What beats all viable potential users of Dragon Dance? I can’t think of anything. Both DD and Sleep Powder are a means to an end, “setup moves”, if you will, as niether of them are the actual haymaker blow, it being the uncontested Outrage or Leech Seed that follows. You do not need to use one particular mon to beat each and every sleep user at one go, although it is completely possible (read: Greninja). If I said, say, that because you can’t really have something to beat Haxorus and Gyarados and Zardx and Zygod in one slot, we should ban Dragon Dance, would anyone support me? No, because you can simply have a counter to each on your team. But you say, a team designed to beat all sleep user is at a disadvantage. How? It’s not like baron pass, which forced a team to be built around beating it in a metagame that is practically incomparable to 1v1 in any way. If I were to say, “A team designed to beat all S rank pokemon is at a disadvantage,” which I could with the same logic, would I be right?
 
Okay, so I didn’t think I was going to reply to this thread again, but after reading this I felt like I would. If you can’t counter any given set of pokemon in the meta with your team, get a better team! You can, and with equal fallacy and perhaps more accuracy, call for a ban on Dragon Dance instead of, say, sleep powder. What beats all viable potential users of Dragon Dance? I can’t think of anything. Both DD and Sleep Powder are a means to an end, “setup moves”, if you will, as niether of them are the actual haymaker blow, it being the uncontested Outrage or Leech Seed that follows. You do not need to use one particular mon to beat each and every sleep user at one go, although it is completely possible (read: Greninja). If I said, say, that because you can’t really have something to beat Haxorus and Gyarados and Zardx and Zygod in one slot, we should ban Dragon Dance, would anyone support me? No, because you can simply have a counter to each on your team. But you say, a team designed to beat all sleep user is at a disadvantage. How? It’s not like baron pass, which forced a team to be built around beating it in a metagame that is practically incomparable to 1v1 in any way. If I were to say, “A team designed to beat all S rank pokemon is at a disadvantage,” which I could with the same logic, would I be right?
If you beat all S rank pokemon, then you aren't really at a disadvantage, are you? :smogthink:
The point, as described in the tiering policy framework, is for standard teams to not have to bend over backwards in order to handle something. Dragon Dance is severely limited to just a single digit number of Pokemon, all of which who use it for legitimate, competitive purposes that actually make use of the Pokemon using them, rather than being what is basically a blank slate beyond speed, in the case of most Sleep users.

That said, nobody is asking you to beat all of anything in a single pokemon slot, only the entirety of the team, which is much more difficult to do for Sleep without sacrificing "too much" of anything else, than for preparing for any other aspect of 1v1, in my opinion.
 
yes, and there are so many viable users of sleep powder? I would limit the number to two or three. What makes a sleep powder win so much less “skillful”? The fact that instead of dying to Flare Blitz or Hyper Beam, you die the agonizing death of Leech Seed? A win is a win. This is not jirachi, there is no “well you can beat everything if you just get really really lucky” aspect to sleep. Jumpluff has matchups just like Zardx or Aegislash does. You say that “sleep doesn’t make use of the pokemon using it except for speed.” I can point you to Venusaur (which isn’t at its best with sleep but somehow always gets brought up). It is not exactly a speed demon.Vivillon, too, is no Zeraoara. It uses compound eyes and quiver dance, two of its innate characteristics, to win. Calling sleep “only speed” is like saying pz is unfair for forcing special defense on some pokemon where otherwise you wouldn’t need it.
 
This has probably already been said but, you have to prepare for sleep just like you for everything else. You may say "You need to add extra measures to check or counter sleep!!11!!" but honestly its something that a decent team should naturally check with various commonly used pokemon like Kommo, Lele, Mega Venu, etc. Honestly, sleep is just a gimmick.
 
yes, and there are so many viable users of sleep powder? I would limit the number to two or three. What makes a sleep powder win so much less “skillful”? The fact that instead of dying to Flare Blitz or Hyper Beam, you die the agonizing death of Leech Seed? A win is a win. This is not jirachi, there is no “well you can beat everything if you just get really really lucky” aspect to sleep. Jumpluff has matchups just like Zardx or Aegislash does. You say that “sleep doesn’t make use of the pokemon using it except for speed.” I can point you to Venusaur (which isn’t at its best with sleep but somehow always gets brought up). It is not exactly a speed demon.Vivillon, too, is no Zeraoara. It uses compound eyes and quiver dance, two of its innate characteristics, to win. Calling sleep “only speed” is like saying pz is unfair for forcing special defense on some pokemon where otherwise you wouldn’t need it.
There's plenty of Sleep users-
a few.PNG

insert mandatory carnivine meme here
Of this bunch, you have Jumpluff, Lilligant, Roserade, Venomoth, Venusaur, and Vivillon, and that's just Sleep Powder. A Sleep win is less skillful because you didn't have to do any work besides click buttons; you didn't have to calc damage rolls, EV creep for relevant threats, consider type matchup, or anything. You just Sleep and either RNG does the rest, or you win.

In regards to the "there is no 'well you can beat everything if you just get really really lucky'" bit, I point you to Whimsicott, who is quite literally a Prankster Jirachi, with Grasswhistle, at the expense of Prankster/Leech Seed immunities and Taunt.

Everything else has been addressed in the FAQ.
 
Honestly I feel like the issue here is about speed traps more than anything.

P1: ’sleep is rng based’
The only real reason that sleep is being brought up is because with the combination of the sleep move itself not being 100% accurate (sleep powder without boosting items, hypnosis) and the supposedly uncompetitive rng of sleep turns.

These actually have little to no relevance to how these Pokemon work.
From my pov, the only 3 relevant Sleep users are Jumpluff, Mega Gengar, Vivillon (maybe Smeargle, not really that relevant anymore) (Venusaur I’m also not counting cos it has better things to do than sleep).

For the sleep move itself, jumpluff and vivillon both use sleep powder, however jumpluff typically runs wide lens and vivillon naturally has compound eyes which mitigates the inaccuracy issue.
Gengar uses hypnosis. . . m o v i n g o n

For the sleep rolls themselves, all these Pokemon typically sacrifice a move slot for Substitute which means that the rng is actually in their favour, as its highly unlikely that you will wake up first turn every time. Jumpluff and Gengar really only need one free turn anyway.

The only situation that is rng based is that random sleep turns can sway the tide of a battle occasionally, such as Protecting on a Taunt or Flame Charge, but that scenario is rare and is the only actual rng part of this whole debate.

P2: ‘sleep is uncompetitive because it allows less skilled players to win’
People seem to think that because ‘all you have to do’ is spam sleep and sub and protect that it is unskilful. In certain matchups, for certain Pokemon, there is a best play. All choice mons pressing super effectives moves is that more skilful? Pzs pressing hyper beams, thats more skilful isnt it?
1v1 skill is largely determined through teambuilding and picking at team preview, so yes the majority of the time the game itself will be mindless repetitive button clicking.

P3: speedtraps
What do these Pokemon do? They Speedtrap.
Gengar and Vivillon use Sleep to allow them to get free attacks on their opponents.
Jumpluff just needs one free turn to set up Leech Seed to win.
If you’re slower than these Pokemon, you should expect to lose. With the exception of certain matchups eg Taunt Mawile vs Vivillon.

Whether or not people deem this to be too strong for the meta is where I think the issue lies. Its not about sleep rolls, its not about rng, its whether or not we as a community think these speed traps are too constricting or lacking counterplay.
Which, from the looks of it, is not an issue so...


The only sleep-(ab)using Pokemon that I have any issue with is Mega Gengar and that’s purely because Hypnosis has 60% accuracy but it’s pokemon so theres almost always going to be something hax reliant.
 
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I'm pretty bogged down with midterms, so nothing too lengthy, but here's some quick thoughts on sleep. Right now, I'm seeing 3 parties of sleep users. The first use it for probability management (ie Gengar, Whimsicott, Sceptile). It's not a win condition, but when placed in an unfavorable situation, it can cheese out a win 40% of the time. The second is what people are referring too as speed traps (ie Jumpluff, Vivillon, Breloom). These Pokemon have great difficulty beating much of anything without sleep. Their primary objective is to put the opponent to sleep, and in tandem with Substitute, slowly win. The third is as an offensive win condition (ie Swampert, Camerupt, Relicanth). These Pokemon, which nearly always seem to be slow Yawn users, put the opponent to sleep in order to squeeze one extra attack in. Whether or not they use sleep is matchup-dependent. In some cases, it's not used at all (outright wins), in others it's used as a win condition (needing 2 turns of sleep), and in others, it's used as probability management (needing 3 turns of sleep to win).
A2: Secondly, this logic is only ever considered from the perspective of something being broken, when the issue at hand is whether or not Sleep is uncompetitive. To make the difference between broken and uncompetitive clear, consider the analogy of a fistfight:
  • Putting a boxing champion against a high school student is unfair. While the boxer still abides by the rules of the fistfight, they have a clear advantage over the high school student. The boxer in this scenario can thus be considered broken.
  • Bringing a gun to a fistfight is unfair. While the gun can be countered by bringing a bulletproof shield, it transforms the very definition of what a fistfight even means, if left unchecked, as it makes the fight moreso about having the right equipment, rather than being a strong or skilled fighter. The gun in this scenario can thus be considered uncompetitive.
I really like this analogy, so I'm putting it here for reference. These ideas are very important in this discussion.

The first group - probability management - exists inside and outside of sleep. Take for example a Charizard Y running Air Slash in hopes that it can flinch a Donphan. Every example of probability management is uncompetitive, but that doesn't mean it should necessarily be banned. Afterall, is banning the move Air Slash really practical? Or banning Charizard+Air Slash? Of course not. Within the context of low accuracy sleep, though, they are relatively indefensibly bannable. None of these Pokemon use sleep as a win condition. That is, we lose nothing but hax by banning these moves. The few Pokemon that use low accuracy sleep in a fashion that results in it being a remotely reliable win condition are Gengar and Cottonee/Whimsicott. In the case of Gengar, it's to boost the power of Hex, so in some matchups it doesn't need any sleep rolls. That said, these matchups are few and far between, so I don't think this irrelevant example should hold us back. The other case is only remotely reliable when combined with BrightPowder/Lax Incense, which should be banned regardless, so these don't hold up either. I think that we ought to ban Grass Whistle, Sing, and Hypnosis if nothing else.

The second group - speed traps - are something that I'm personally pretty unsure of. If they are bannable, it's not for nearly the same rationale as low accuracy sleep. This ultimately comes down to how we want to define this "fistfight." I'll respond to the most convincing pro-ban argument I've seen to address this topic.
Q: "Being ko'd prevents me from doing anything, too, why should I care about Sleep?"
  • A: Being ko'd is a matter of Pokemon, with regards to type effectiveness, move base power, EVs, etc. Being put to sleep is a matter of moves and items, in that countering Sleep is not something that can be done with type effectiveness (besides Grass > Powder), move base power, or EVs (besides Speed). Prepping for Sleep is done in a way that acts almost completely regardless of the Pokemon being used to counter Sleep, in the same way many Pokemon in Balanced Hackmons often have to run Safety Goggles, Poison Heal, Misty Terrain, or some other thing in order to handle the highly present risk of being put to sleep, the mon doesn't matter. Does this fact automatically make Sleep banworthy? No, I just want to make it clear that it is not comparable to being ko'd.
Pokemon don't go around running Lum to beat sleep, but it is true that EVs are less relevant against sleep traps. That said, there are other ways around sleep. Moves that are good in general - Taunt and Flame Charge - deal with sleep traps very well. Priority, sound moves, multi-hit moves, various abilities, and simply being faster also beat speed traps. The issue that I'm currently seeing that Jumpluff seems to be pretty good at bypassing these with a combination of Protect+Sleep Powder timing and Z-Sleep Powder+Infestation. This isn't something that other speed traps can effectively circumvent. This also doesn't take into account Jumpluff's higher reliance on RNG than other speed traps. For this reason, my tentative opinion is that Jumpluff should be banned, but the moves Sleep Powder and Spore along with other speed traps are okay.

The third group - offensive sleep users - are yet another individual case. Unlike speed traps, type advantages and EVs do come into play. The only reason that anyone is looking to ban them is that they have a certain reliance on RNG. As a win condition, it's slightly less reliable than Focus Blast. As Osra stated, though, Focus Blast missing isn't harming you - the person facing the Focus Blast user. It's something that you can choose to use at your own discretion. I don't have the time to analyze this, but as far as I can tell, there aren't too many matchups where these mons need a third turn of sleep to win so I don't see this as big reason to ban them. They also have a very easy option for counterplay in Substitute. Additionally, due to Yawn, they're down a moveslot with reliance on Protect. I don't see any of these, or Yawn - their preferred sleep move - as at all banworthy.
 
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lost heros

Meme Master
Hey guys, time for something you've never seen before:

A Post on Sleep in 1v1!
or, Sleep and the role it plays in the 1v1 Metagame
Sleep, as I am sure everyone who is reading this already knows, is a mechanic in Pokemon wherein an affected Pokemon is unable to perform an action for 1-3 turns. There are some exceptions to this, primarily when Sleep Talk is performed, but for the most part it is very cut and dry. In a regular 6v6 format, the status of Sleep is balanced through the enforcement of a Sleep Clause, stating that no more than one Pokemon on an opposing team can be afflicted by Sleep from an opponent at a time. This works fine in 6v6, as the other 5 members of the team can account for this, but in 1v1, the ongoing debate is and always has been, is Sleep a problem?

The Principles:
Sleep as a status in Pokemon takes away control from the entirety of a team, in a 1v1 situation. This pretty much goes against the standards of sleep clause in a metagame. Despite the fact that 1v1 does not yet enforce such a clause, Sleep Clauses are seen in many official tiers as a balancing measure to ensure that teams don't need to predominantly worry about the RNG associated with being hit by Sleep-inducing moves and waking up. In essence, Sleep Clause exists in 6v6 because excess Sleep is uncompetitive/unhealthy.

This is probably due to the fact that, while asleep, Pokemon cannot perform the basic tasks they have been set out to do, and opens the door for less skilled players to gain an advantage over more skilled players, exasperated by the randomness of when a Pokemon wakes up and when a sleep move actually hits. Referencing the tiering policy of Smogon, "The majority of our potential suspect discussion will center around the defined versions of uncompetitive, broken, and unhealthy and how a particular suspect element lowers some component of player skill within those three constructs", with skill being defined as:

I.) Skill - the subjective metric we use to judge player worth in competitive Pokemon.
  • Team Building Skill - the part of skill that is involved in the preparation for a battle
    • Assessing and Dealing with Threats
    • Building Towards a Strategy (or Strategies)
    • Creativity
    • Catering to Metagame / Opponents
  • Battling Skill - the part of skill involved in actually battling
    • Picking the Right Lead
    • Recognizing the Win Condition
    • Picking the Right Move
    • Smart Switching (Not relevant in 1v1)
    • Gathering Information and Making Assumptions
    • Long-term vs. Short-term Goals
    • Assessing Risk
    • Probability Management
    • Prediction
Sleep significantly undermines skill when a Pokemon is asleep, in particular negatively affecting Building Towards a Strategy, Creativity, Picking the Right Move, Long-term vs. Short-term Goals, Probability Management, and Prediction, among other qualities. This becomes unacceptable in 6v6 when more than one of the six Pokemon is put to sleep, therefore Sleep Clause was enacted. To limit sleep in a 6v6 is to promote skill based gameplay.

That being said, 1v1 isn't a 6v6, and 1v1 has core values that separate itself from any 6v6. While sleep still inhibits many of the aforementioned qualities of skill, any good 1v1 team is built to beat almost everything and anything that it comes across; in theory, that should include sleep and sleep users. This then deviates to a conversation on whether or not sleep strategies limit teambuilding significantly, which then ties into more of the facts rather than principles.

Some users may bring up that having the ability to remove choice and skill from an opponent through sleep is no different from KOing your opponent. The problem with that argument is that KOing your opponent is the objective of competitive Pokemon, and is directly related to your skill in a Pokemon game. Putting an opponent to sleep is not the objective of competitive Pokemon, and thus removing the possibility of knocking out your opponent through sleep is not only not a measure of skill from the sleep user, but also serves the role in removing skill from the afflicted player, as I have already stated.

The takeaways from this section should be: When you are asleep, a player cannot move, thus negatively affecting the traditional core tenants of skill-based gameplay in Smogon; however, these tenants may be subtly different in 1v1 compared to other metagames. Sleep Clause or other effective measures to limit the effectiveness of sleep should only be put in place if and when sleep has proven to significantly prevent skill based gameplay.

The Facts:
Sleep in 1v1 is utilized by several Pokemon, including Jumpluff, Vivillon, Mega Venusaur, and Mega Gengar, among others. Their sleep strategies, in one way or another, involve taking advantage of a Pokemon while they are immobilized by Sleep, whether it be through damage or stall. The undisputed best sleep abuser is currently Jumpluff; it can essentially automatically win after hitting Sleep Powder and Leech Seed, has an amazing Speed Tier, and possesses ways to mitigate Sleep Powder's mediocre accuracy, Substitute users, and a weakness to Taunt. Other Pokemon either rely on less accurate sleep-inducing moves, are not as fast as Jumpluff, or both.

However, looking past Jumpluff, several other Pokemon utilize sleep in a less-than-honest way in order to turn unwinnable matchups into 50/50s, based on uncontrollable RNG. Mega Gengar, with its absurd 394 max speed, can easily cheese a win from almost anything that Ghost hits neutrally about 50% of the time, thanks to Hypnosis and Hex. Whimsicott can utilize Grass Whistle to win against Pokemon such as Mega Charizard Y and Naganadel, which it would otherwise be incapable of beating reliably, about 50% of the time. These strategies highlight the dangers Sleep poses to a healthy metagame more so than anything else.

But, besides those, sleep-inducing moves breaking a Pokemon is not necessarily the rule; rather, a sleep move works in tandem with a Pokemon's pre-existing tools to sweeten the deal. Pokemon like Hypnosis Rapidash and Grass Whistle Cacturne are never going to be incredibly viable or threatening thanks to their respective sleep moves, but the moves do allow each user to gain possibly unwarranted advantages against any Pokemon by removing their ability to actually do anything.

Lastly, sleep users are naturally restrictive on teambuilding; any viable 1v1 team must run at least a reliable Jumpluff answer, if not the hardest sleep counter they can muster, or else risk being 3-0ed simply because they are put to sleep before they can do anything, and cannot wake up before it is too late.

The takeaways from this section should be: Sleep-inducing moves have allowed Pokemon such as Jumpluff and Vivillon to rise up the ranks, as well as provide others a way to cheese out wins that neither side can control, but sleep-inducing moves by themselves don't practically break any Pokemon that can use them, even though they promote unhealthy strategies, rather they must be used in conjunction with individual complimentary strategies.

I hope I have been able present the information above in a coherent and unbiased manner; I am hoping that by separating these points like this, people can see more eye to eye when discussing sleep in 1v1.

My own personal thoughts: Sleep is both principally and practically flawed in the 1v1 metagame, allowing sleep users to remove elements of skill from their opponent, with no viable counterplay options available after an opponent is put to sleep. This has led to several sets to either win consistently simply by being faster or beat matchups in essential RNG 50/50s, which I do not approve of in a competitive environment.




This brings me to my final point
After discussing with a few of my contemporaries, we have narrowed down a few of the 'problem children' of sleep moves in 1v1. I am personally curious to hear what the community thinks about these specific moves:

Dark Void, Grass Whistle, Hypnosis, Lovely Kiss, Sing, Sleep Powder, Spore

These are all of the moves that activate sleep on the turn when the move is used. They prevent an opponent from doing anything at all during that turn and a random amount of following turns.

The reason why Yawn wasn't included in this is because a Pokemon can always act during a turn of Yawn, regardless of whether or not the Yawn user is faster than the Pokemon being afflicted, preserving a semblance of skill and strategy, as well as forcing a Yawn user to waste a moveslot running Protect, or else be hit twice before sleep activates, which can be fatal in 1v1.

I and others I know believe being put to sleep immediately is a significant detriment to skill in 1v1, as defined by the tiering policy of Smogon.

What are your thoughts on the healthiness of those moves in the 1v1 metagame?
Fourth time is the charm!

Edit: Since this is the fourth time we're going to being talking about sleep again, I'll bring up a point that I didn't make the first three times we didn't ban sleep.

SLEEP ISN'T REAL!

Now what I mean of course is that sleep as a defined strategy that wins you the game isn't a real thing because of course it isn't. Sleep is often being treated as this weird threat that a bunch of bad pokemon use as an axe and hax any pokemon it can get its hands on, with each individual pokemon being a different flavor of sprinkles for the ice cream that is sleep. This is of course bullshit. Sleep does not act as a win condition to make a bad pokemon viable. Sleep is a tool that allows a pokemon to implement a strategy.

This is the most obvious when you actually fucking look at the pokemon that use sleep. Speed traps akin to Vivillion, Jumpluff, Breloom, and Smeargle, aren't the fucking same as Gengar which isn't the same as Snorlax, which isn't the same as Mega Venusaur or any other bulky sleep user. This incredibly simplistic view of sleep as simply the other player is now in a situation "I hit button and nothing happen, but game still going?" completely ignores the reality of what sleep fucking is.

Sleep augments and enhances a set number of certain strategies. Even without sleep, shitty subseed speed traps like Bright powder Sceptile and bulky subseed speed traps like celesteela will still exist. Fast attackers with probability-dependant moves like Togekiss or Meloetta that utilize a set up turn will still exist. Bulky pokemon with set-up and recovery certainly still exist. And in all honestly, stall pokemon won't change at all.

What my point is, a sleep ban is an incredibly simplistic, feel-good ban that targets vastly different, relatively mediocre pokemon that doesn't align with what is actually happening in a 1v1 game.
 
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Honestly I feel like the issue here is about speed traps more than anything.

P1: ’sleep is rng based’
The only real reason that sleep is being brought up is because with the combination of the sleep move itself not being 100% accurate (sleep powder without boosting items, hypnosis) and the supposedly uncompetitive rng of sleep turns.

These actually have little to no relevance to how these Pokemon work.
From my pov, the only 3 relevant Sleep users are Jumpluff, Mega Gengar, Vivillon (maybe Smeargle, not really that relevant anymore) (Venusaur I’m also not counting cos it has better things to do than sleep).

For the sleep move itself, jumpluff and vivillon both use sleep powder, however jumpluff typically runs wide lens and vivillon naturally has compound eyes which mitigates the inaccuracy issue.
Gengar uses hypnosis. . . m o v i n g o n

For the sleep rolls themselves, all these Pokemon typically sacrifice a move slot for Substitute which means that the rng is actually in their favour, as its highly unlikely that you will wake up first turn every time. Jumpluff and Gengar really only need one free turn anyway.

The only situation that is rng based is that random sleep turns can sway the tide of a battle occasionally, such as Protecting on a Taunt or Flame Charge, but that scenario is rare and is the only actual rng part of this whole debate.

P2: ‘sleep is uncompetitive because it allows less skilled players to win’
People seem to think that because ‘all you have to do’ is spam sleep and sub and protect that it is unskilful. In certain matchups, for certain Pokemon, there is a best play. All choice mons pressing super effectives moves is that more skilful? Pzs pressing hyper beams, thats more skilful isnt it?
1v1 skill is largely determined through teambuilding and picking at team preview, so yes the majority of the time the game itself will be mindless repetitive button clicking.

P3: speedtraps
What do these Pokemon do? They Speedtrap.
Gengar and Vivillon use Sleep to allow them to get free attacks on their opponents.
Jumpluff just needs one free turn to set up Leech Seed to win.
If you’re slower than these Pokemon, you should expect to lose. With the exception of certain matchups eg Taunt Mawile vs Vivillon.

Whether or not people deem this to be too strong for the meta is where I think the issue lies. Its not about sleep rolls, its not about rng, its whether or not we as a community think these speed traps are too constricting or lacking counterplay.
Which, from the looks of it, is not an issue so...


The only sleep-(ab)using Pokemon that I have any issue with is Mega Gengar and that’s purely because Hypnosis has 60% accuracy but it’s pokemon so theres almost always going to be something hax reliant.


I fully agree with your arguments and what you say, I like the idea you put forward "sleep is uncompetitive because it allows less skilled players to win" while starting with the construction of the Jumpluff team is at the centre of this sleep strategy with good stats especially in speed to overcome zardx and zardy which are the most played, it is not generally played in the most played third parties on PS in OU for example. But in 1v1 it's another universe, Jumpluff or Vivillon have a great potential to control sleep, so yes sleep is a good strategy for a player who starts in 1v1.
 

ryyjyywyy

Survivor Champion
I fully agree with your arguments and what you say, I like the idea you put forward "sleep is uncompetitive because it allows less skilled players to win" while starting with the construction of the Jumpluff team is at the centre of this sleep strategy with good stats especially in speed to overcome zardx and zardy which are the most played, it is not generally played in the most played third parties on PS in OU for example. But in 1v1 it's another universe, Jumpluff or Vivillon have a great potential to control sleep, so yes sleep is a good strategy for a player who starts in 1v1.
this isnt what he was saying. He was saying that people who want sleep banned use that argument when in reality using a strategy that can win and knowing how to win with it is a trait of a skilled player, even if they are new and using a sleep mon.
 

Quote

Cautiously Optimistic
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LC Co-Leader
Not much of a writer and I'm starting to feel sick, but I'm council so some quick thoughts:

- I'm not really seeing too many (if any) coherent arguments from the pro-ban side. When has M-Gar's "60% winrate" been a problem, and since when was 60% chance of winning (depending on the opponent so not actually 60%) good? If you have a 60% winrate on ladder that's considered mediocre.

Otherwise, Whimsi has similar issues, vivi is ass (oh no I have to use a fast pokemon!!) and although jumpluff is weird it can be beaten with speed manipulation and a taunt kit. Will improve this when I feel better or when someone calls me out.
 
- I'm not really seeing too many (if any) coherent arguments from the pro-ban side. When has M-Gar's "60% winrate" been a problem, and since when was 60% chance of winning (depending on the opponent so not actually 60%) good? If you have a 60% winrate on ladder that's considered mediocre.
Mega Gengar's winrate with Hypnosis is not 60%. If it needs 2 turns of sleep, it's 40% and if it needs 3 turns it's 20%. This win rate, in contrast to 60%, is quite horrible and isn't something that any half decent player is, would, or should rely upon. When you ban low accuracy sleep, for this reason, you're not losing any positive influences on the meta and are effectively removing only unnecessary hax. It would be banned for being uncompetitive, not broken. I will agree that there's not much as much merit to a complete sleep ban.
.Otherwise, Whimsi has similar issues, vivi is ass (oh no I have to use a fast pokemon!!) and although jumpluff is weird it can be beaten with speed manipulation and a taunt kit. Will improve this when I feel better or when someone calls me out.
Jumpluff can't just be beaten with speed manipulation or Taunt. Its Grassium Sleep Powder gives +1 speed and it runs Infestation.
 
Not much of a writer and I'm starting to feel sick, but I'm council so some quick thoughts:

- I'm not really seeing too many (if any) coherent arguments from the pro-ban side. When has M-Gar's "60% winrate" been a problem, and since when was 60% chance of winning (depending on the opponent so not actually 60%) good? If you have a 60% winrate on ladder that's considered mediocre.

Otherwise, Whimsi has similar issues, vivi is ass (oh no I have to use a fast pokemon!!) and although jumpluff is weird it can be beaten with speed manipulation and a taunt kit. Will improve this when I feel better or when someone calls me out.
The difference between Gengar's winrate and something like Charizard's winrate is that Charizard's winrate fluctuates based on the pokemon it's put up against, whereas Gengar's winrate remains relatively consistent against almost everything, other than needing more or less sleep turns for some matchups. This, in turn, effectively makes Gengar's winrate against nearly everything in 1v1 a 60%(1 turn)/40%(2 turn)/20% (3 turn) chance (minus things like lopunny, zeraora, or diancie). Having chanced autowins against a majority of relevant pokemon is something I'd rather avoid, as that effectively puts it in line with OHKO moves, which are very similar in that they are chanced autowins.
 
I've always wanted to get some points straightened about the suspect philosophy, so I'll just ask it here, along with a small description of how I understand the mentioned point..
Some erstwhile active member of the 1v1 community said:
1) A Pokemon is deemed suspect worthy if it's overcentralizing in the 1v1 metagame, a significantly high usage justifies the large scale it takes in the metagame which is unhealthy and needs to be looked on. This is 1v1 and not a battle between two teams, a Pokemon with high usage proves that its strong and easily splashable on most teams.
I think this point is not all that valid, considering the fact that a high usage Pokemon just has everything about it, right from its stats, movepool, to its form changes (Mega Evols, forme change, and everything similar) and everything. All I am trying to say is that overcentralising is not an inherently correct pointer for a Pokemon's "brokenness". Also, most bans (I repeat, most bans) in recent past of 1v1(from the council voting stuff) were not that of very highly used Pokemon.

The same good sir said:
2) By definition a broken Pokemon is a Pokemon that doesn't have a lot of checks and counters. Let's define C&C in 1v1. A check is a Pokemon that can defeat another with a specific set but if it uses another it may lose. A counter is a Pokemon that can defeat another Pokemon no matter what it runs. Ex: Mega Blastoise is a check to Mega Charizard Y if it runs full spdf and mirror coat but Chansey is a counter to Mega Charizard Y as it can always beat it. A pokemon is deemed broken if it defeats at least more than the half of the metagame with a set or its other viable sets without having an opportunity cost, that was the case of Mega Salamence which could easily adjust between two sets and defeat more than half of the meta.
I think 1v1 is a unique metagame where the so-called rare sets can actually perform really well. To explain with an example, in the Mega Charizard Y vs Chansey matchup, if the Mega Charizard Y has Belly Drum and Flare Blitz to counter its special counters like Chansey, Chansey would not be a counter to the former(just to explain an example, though coming to think of it, OMG that's a good counter oof.....). In this context, I'd like to bring around a new definition for a "broken Pokemon" in the 1v1 context - "A Pokemon is broken in 1v1 if it requires very specific, otherwise-unviable sets or Pokemon to counter it." If you look back at our banlist with this definition in mind, you would find that the Pokemon banned for being broken fits nicely into this definition.

The same good sir said:
3) We do not judge by playstyle since this is 1v1. If a Pokemon defeats a stall team in 1v1 it shouldn't be looked into due to them having a lot of choices to pick from and being having only two-third of the team stallish doesn't stop the last member from defeating a more offensive Pokemon. Ex: If Mega Charizard Y defeats a stall team made of Mega Venusaur, Jellicent and Mandibuzz it's not the Pokemon that is broken, the team doesn't synergize to defeat common threats in the metagame which is your fault, same goes to offensive teams that loses to Chansey. They are S ranked for a reason.
I think this point is either redundant or can be better phrased to fit into the suspect philosophy. This is 1v1; everyone knows playstyle is not a term, or at least, is not a very relevant one in 1v1. I think "archetype" is a more suitable term to be used here, like "All-Out Offensive Pokemon (Greninja)", " Bulky Offensive Pokemon (most of the current metagame)", "Stall"(Will-O-Wisp Mew, Type: Null), "Speed traps" (Deoxys-Speed, Jumpluff), amongst others. And in this context, I'd also like to add that a Pokemon should be banworthy if it can beat a sizeable amount of the meta while fitting into more than one Pokemon "archetype".

The same good sir said:
4) We are not looking to make low ranked Pokemon viable in the metagame by banning high ranked Pokemon. It's not our fault if they weren't gifted with good stats, and movesets to be viable in 1v1.
the same old dude said:
7) Staying on the topic of sets, don't bring in discussion niche sets just to prove that this Pokemon is broken since it can adapt easily, it's just not a good base to build on since most Pokemon can also run niche sets to defeat other.
If a Pokemon can beat a huge number of Pokemon with a couple of sets, and can beat a couple or two of its counter with a specific niche, I think the niche set is also worth considering since it adds to the versatility and set flexibility of the Pokemon... While it is true that niche sets can be run to counter specific Pokemon, how much a Pokemon beats plus the niche set becomes a focal point, so if two Pokemon beats the same amount of the VR, the next parameter would be how flexible the Pokemon can be made with little opportunity cost. Also, can someone tell me what opportunity cost really means? Like say, I have a core which needs to beat A, B, and C. I find X beats all three with a specific set which can't beat much else, but I don't want it to beat much else... If I start seeing Terrakion as broken in the future because of a really broken Rockium set which beats a lot, a decent enough Band set, which beats not as much as RockZ does, but still is effective, and an AV set which beats not as much but is still a "niche" enough set (as I currently understand it)to beat something the other two sets don't, that won't mean that AV is an ineffective set,would it, since it can lure some threats and consistently KO?

the same old dude said:
8) Don't bring up complex bans they are unneeded and just creates more confusion. Per example if Trick+Choice Item is broken it's not the strategy itself but the user that makes it broken, taking per example Chansey and Meloetta. Chansey will defeat Meloetta even if its tricked if the Meloetta lacks Psyshock but if Meloetta has Psyshock it will be able to defeat Chansey.
For a small amount of time, it looked as if Fightinium Z+Detect could be banned, but since no Pokemon learned Detect but not Protect, a better option was just to ban Detect. Is there a point after which complex bans can be discussed about? In that above example, if there was a sizeable amount of Pokemon which had Detect but not Protect, would Fightinium Z+Detect have been banned? Why I am asking this hypothetical question is to see if complex bans are totally out of the question or if, in a situation where there is no other possible solution to a problem, it can be discussed..

9) If good arguments are made against a Pokemon the Tier Leader has the right to suspect it, we aren't looking for quick banning Pokemon since the community's opinion is valuable and they make the metagame. If a Pokemon didn't get banned due to a suspect don't re-talk about it even if you still think it's broken, we work on majority.
No comments to be added here other than this
uwu g0g unban jirachi and resuspect
 
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The Immortal

They Don't Want None
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Other Metas Leader
Hello everyone.

I am formally stepping down from 1v1 leadership. Several years ago, as a young OM moderator, I saw a metagame that needed a leader. A metagame played long before Pokemon Showdown even came to existence. I decided to take on the responsibility of running 1v1 and helping it grow to what it is today. Along this journey there have been people that supported the development of 1v1 and those that questioned every decision we made. I am glad to have been a part of this journey and am happy to see where 1v1 is today, as well as its potential in the future. I'm delighted to announce that 1v1 will be receiving its own section, outside of Other Metagames. With my own lack of interest and time to devote to 1v1, and with the feeling of the responsibility no longer being on my shoulders, I am passing the position of 1v1 leader to Quote. I have no doubt he will be able to lead this metagame and community successfully into the future.

Thank you.
 
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