Metagame 1v1 Metagame Discussion

[Mubs]

To preface this, I’d like to state that this is simply criticism of how things are being run right now. You know me, I’m not trying to demean or offend anyone, just simply state how I feel. Also, please feel free to correct me if anything I've said is inaccurate.


In light of Nalei’s recent resignation, the 1v1 Council has 4 members: Rosa, Alakazam, dogknees, and Waylaid. While others may like to argue their engagement with the current SS metagame, I feel that 4 members is way too low for a metagame of 1v1’s status. I also want to mention that the activity of such council members with regards to actively discussing the metagame was questionable, even before recent events. While I do not have access to channels such as #council, I have heard many accounts from prior and current members of the 1v1 council that activity has essentially dissipated since the Victini Suspect. Also, as of my writing this, there has not been a single message in #council-minutes since 12/12/2020 - almost an entire two months. While I do understand that the metagame isn’t necessarily in a state in which council action is necessitated, if my knowledge of tiering policy is correct, members of councils are expected to uphold consistent discussion on the metagame.

What I’d like to propose to add more council members. Most current members have other significant responsibilities: Rosa and TDA are both TLs, Forum Moderators, Tournament directors, VR Council members, Room Staff, and maintainers of various threads. dogknees is a Room Owner and 1v1 C&C head. Considering the number of commitments most of them have, I think it would be beneficial for everyone if there were more council members to take off the load that they all have.

Currently, tiering councils of official metagames hold anywhere from 8-13 members. I don’t see why we cannot follow this precedent. We certainly have enough knowledgeable people in the community to do it. We can take an approach similar to how OU handled its QC situation, in which they sent out a form in efforts to find knowledgeable people interested.

I’d like to emphasize the importance of having an active council, especially during tournaments such as PL, WC, and LT. Discussion of tours can help with overall metagame development. Large tours, especially team tours with many players working together, lead to many meta shifts in innovations which can be difficult to keep up with for many. There have also been situations with Pokemon such as Mimikyu, Cinderace, Togekiss, and Jirachi that were allowed in the metagame for way too long after some degree of agreement was reached that they were problematic because of a disconnect from the community and the council.

Well, that's all from me. As always, thank you for reading, and have a nice day.

 

[SiceXV]

Urshifu Single Strike sets vs VR S-C

Strictly showing if certain Urshifu sets can win vs the VR regardless about usage or how common they are

S Rank
Snorlax W

A+ Rank
Genesect L
Primarina L
Togekiss L
Zygarde W ice punch or ID

A Rank
Cresselia W
Jirachi W if no moonblast
Moltres-G W Reversal with SP wins unless you run taunt over np or fiery wrath
Rillaboom Has a lot of weird matchups, but Urshifu can wi
Spectrier W
Sylveon L

A- Rank
Darmanitan-Galar W scarf da only option
Necrozma W just dont get baited into WP
Porygon-Z W has to be scarf or L
Registeel W Taunt ID
Tapu Fini L
Urshifu-R W on the possibility of chople counter
Volcanion W +1 252 Atk Urshifu Reversal (200 BP) vs. 248 HP / 96+ Def Volcanion: 349-412 (96.1 - 113.4%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO specific set, but I'm just looking if Urshifu can win or not
Zeraora - Roseli Berry or if they don't run play rough u can just ev for CC

B+ Rank
Aggron W
Blaziken W band or chople
Dragapult W AV if specs or just outplay
Haxorus W
Kartana Chople Berry
Landorus-T L Coba Berry and you can bulk for fly if there are not band
Naganadel W AV
Regieleki W AV wins
Suicune W if you don't get burned
Zapdos L

B Rank
Avalugg L
Azumarill L should win even if they're roseli if you have jet
Crustle W
Diancie Banded Iron Head
Garchomp W with ice punch coverage
Heatran W
Kyurem W
Nihilego W based on the fact some crazy peope use scarf
Raikou W
Regidrago L
Rhyperior W
Sawk Chople Berry
Tapu Koko L
Tapu Lele W Choice Band
Zapdos-G L
Zarude W

B- Rank
Aegislash W
Arcanine L
Archeops W if scarf
Buzzwole L
Dracovish W
Dracozolt W
Ferrothorn W
Glastrier W
Latios W AV
Metagross W
Pheromosa L W tho if you get baited into chople
VolcaronaW

C+ Rank
Articuno W Band how is this mon C+
Blacephalon W Sucker Punch
Celesteela L
Chansey W
Clefable L
Entei W
Gardevoir W Scarf on Scarf
Gastrodon W Bulk up
Goodra W
Hydreigon W 252+ SpA Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Urshifu: 343-405 (84.9 - 100.2%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO lol + Av
Incineroar W Bulk up or ID
Landorus W 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Urshifu: 344-407 (85.1 - 100.7%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
Latias AV since you have to be specs to OHKO
Magnezone W
Regice W
Rotom-Heat W AV or Band
Swampert another weird ass mu but u can out play and win
Tyranitar W

C Rank
Aromatisse L
Carracosta W
Conkeldurr L
Corsola-Galar W
Diggersby W
Durant W with chople
Hawlucha W deadass can just lose if u dont OHKO if u built different and run cc
Kommo-o L
Mamoswine W
Nidoking W 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Sludge Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Urshifu: 298-352 (87.3 - 103.2%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
Rotom-Wash W same reason with heat
Salazzle W
Torkoal L
Scizor L just dual wingbeat
Venusaur W
Weavile W
Whimsicott W Poison jab if stall

20/92 of A-C can beat urshifu straight up, with 7 of those being fairy types.
Not saying all the sets are good, but they're all usable and you can get baited so easily. I think it puts way too much strain on team building to the point where you have to put some standard bland ass fairy on most of your teams just to check this thing. idk should be looked into more just my thoughts

 

[Here Comes Team Charm!]

18/92 of A-C can beat urshifu straight up, with 7 of those being fairy types.
Not saying all the sets are good, but they're all usable and you can get baited so easily. I think it puts way too much strain on team building to the point where you have to put some standard bland ass fairy on most of your teams just to check this thing. idk should be looked into more just my thoughts

If urshifu can run a set with literally no usage (roseli berry, band iron head), you mark it down as a win, or a mixed victory at best. At the same time, options that other pokemon have, like band play rough jirachi, gets no mention, and scarf moonblast is only brought up to be dismissed as a win for urshifu anyway. Your definition for 'counter' almost seems to be 'mon that can beat every conceivable urshifu set using its own main set with no substitutions or alterations', and obviously that results in a skewed representation of how people can reliably beat urshifu.

For a lot of these mons, you don't actually seem to know what they do or run. A limited list of corrections:

Long list

-Genesect vs Urshifu is extremely set-dependent, but even scarf fire punch is no reliable genesect counter, and AV ursh can be bulked and outplayed. I'd be inclined to favor gene here, especially from the perspective of a builder trying to beat urshifu (which is the best measure for determining if a mon is overpowered).
-Jirachi, been over that, while urshifu beats the typical rachi set it's easier to make a rachi that beats every urshifu than an urshifu that beats every rachi.
-Moltres-Galar: this learns sucker punch and actually uses it on some sets, so your reversal matchup gets extremely iffy and comes down to outplaying sucker punches. (not to mention that reversal is crazy niche to begin with)
-Darmanitan-Galar: either the scarf comment refers to g-darm, in which case it's wrong and ignorant of the meta, or it refers to urshifu in which case there's two separate chople spreads that both beat every gdarm with zero prediction.
-PZ is another set-dependent situation that you're marking down as a W. Scarf ursh loses to custap PZ, everything else doesn't like scarf PZ.
-Volcanion is another one: Wisp Volcanion is a thing and your reversal set is a 50-50 against it (arguably worse odds, but I'll assume reversal runs some bulk), which considering that barely anyone uses it in the first place isn't that great.
-How the heck does band urshifu beat Blaziken, y'know it runs Endure and not Protect right.
-Diancie: band urshifu is already pushing it but band iron head is literally only useful for diancie.
-Heatran can run chople, does solid even vs AV.
-Kyurem is another set-dependent one but tbf everything is set-dependent versus kyurem and nobody uses it anyway.
-Nihilego I'll grant you the win versus anything that actually get used, but specs is 92 EVs away from tanking scarf jolly close combat.
-Regidrago runs more than scarf and ddance, AV matches up well versus Urshifu thanks to Scale Shot and Draco Meteor.
-Sawk is actually more complicated than just chople berry, Counter can mess with any Urshifu and Wicked Blowing t1 is risky as it means you lose versus faster Sawks.
-Scarf lele exists and choice band is an unset anyway.
-Zarude: this runs Bulk Up WP to beat like 80% of the Urshifus that people use.
-Why is dracovish a win but dracozolt a loss? Both seem pretty set-dependent to me.
-Ferrothorn's best set is chople ID bpress, which again matches up very well against Ursh.
-LO or specs pheromosa can click Focus Blast relatively free, it's not as common as band but countering all urshifus with it is pretty easy.
-Volcarona clicks wisp against nonscarf and roosts up, QDs and OHKOs scarf.
-Gastrodon has clear smog so this is realistically just going to be a very lengthy series of annoying predicts.
-Specs rheat beats non-AV, stall beats non-band.

Ultimately, this analysis just feels outdated, and almost comes across as something written right after the victini ban. Concrete sets get mentioned along unused memes that theoretically beat something, mons whose newly developed sets reliably counter urshifu are dismissed as easy wins, and there's no mention of LO at all when it's a lot more viable than band. It makes it hard for me to view this as a serious plea to 'look at' urshifu.

In the last round of PL, urshifu usage wasn't particularly crazy. Using the bo7 series as an example, there were 23 games total (three six-game series and one five-game series), with 138 mons brought in total. How often did urshifu show up? Eight times, assuming that every unrevealed Urshifu was single-strike. If its versatility and power make it a candidate for 'looking at', then some of the best SS players with a full team behind them must've all missed that.

 

[SiceXV]

If urshifu can run a set with literally no usage (roseli berry, band iron head), you mark it down as a win, or a mixed victory at best. At the same time, options that other pokemon have, like band play rough jirachi, gets no mention, and scarf moonblast is only brought up to be dismissed as a win for urshifu anyway. Your definition for 'counter' almost seems to be 'mon that can beat every conceivable urshifu set using its own main set with no substitutions or alterations', and obviously that results in a skewed representation of how people can reliably beat urshifu.

yeah I would say its skewed because I thought of the most common sets that these others mons ran and even said some of the urshifu sets were stretches, but I literally said "if certain Urshifu sets can win vs the VR regardless about usage or how common they are". Niche sets are still sets believe it or not.

long list

Sorry of some of these are out of order

-Genesect vs Urshifu is extremely set-dependent, but even scarf fire punch is no reliable genesect counter, and AV ursh can be bulked and outplayed. I'd be inclined to favor gene here, especially from the perspective of a builder trying to beat urshifu (which is the best measure for determining if a mon is overpowered).

prolly the least favorable mu that I put as W, I agree with this

Jirachi, been over that, while urshifu beats the typical rachi set it's easier to make a rachi that beats every urshifu than an urshifu that beats every rachi.

yeah no shit it's set dependent

-Moltres-Galar: this learns sucker punch and actually uses it on some sets, so your reversal matchup gets extremely iffy and comes down to outplaying sucker punches. (not to mention that reversal is crazy niche to begin with)

You keep saying crazy but it's set that you can use to win vs moltres g, and this point just restates the point I already said where you could sub taunt in and win.

-Darmanitan-Galar: either the scarf comment refers to g-darm, in which case it's wrong and ignorant of the meta, or it refers to urshifu in which case there's two separate chople spreads that both beat every gdarm with zero prediction.

guess I didn't feel like explaining on this, but yes chople urshifu wins vs darm g I've been know this, that's why I gave wins against others mon with chople?

-Volcanion is another one: Wisp Volcanion is a thing and your reversal set is a 50-50 against it (arguably worse odds, but I'll assume reversal runs some bulk), which considering that barely anyone uses it in the first place isn't that great.

I'll give you a bone this is the spread I used against Nalei which loses to this set unironically with willo wisp?, I guess could be called ignorant on this because I don't how this would ever be a 50/50, and again I literally said I didn't care about how common they are, more showing off versatility and unsets.

free set

(Volcanion) @ Wacan Berry
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 248 HP / 88 Def / 76 SpA / 96 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Steam Eruption
- Overheat
- Sludge Wave
- Will-O-Wisp

How the heck does band urshifu beat Blaziken, y'know it runs Endure and not Protect right.

Yeah endure beats band, but you realize a slower HP invested chople can just CC into sucker?

-PZ is another set-dependent situation that you're marking down as a W. Scarf ursh loses to custap PZ, everything else doesn't like scarf PZ.

Again you say set dependent, but my whole arguement is urshifu sets put a strain on teambuilding, also vise versa this basically saying custap berry pz just loses to all urshifus with sucker punch, and scarf pz beats all urshifus that aren't scarf, I don't really see the argument.

-Diancie: band urshifu is already pushing it but band iron head is literally only useful for diancie.

Never really saw how putting a band item on a mon that's physically offensive is pushing it? Iron head I guess is a stretch, but I've seen it used before so who knows

Scarf lele exists and choice band is an unset anyway.

Already talked about the band point

-Gastrodon has clear smog so this is realistically just going to be a very lengthy series of annoying predicts.

just outplay lol

Specs rheat beats non-AV, stall beats non-band

one to talk about sets that aren't used, ig if yeah if you play my homie nolenot u lose

Regidrago runs more than scarf and ddance, AV matches up well versus Urshifu thanks to Scale Shot and Draco Meteor.

You know what I'll give you this as long as you run 216 defense on the spread, I'll change it

-Heatran can run chople, does solid even vs AV.

Yeah and if your not chople gg, other option is scarf which has a pretty decent mu I would say 252 SpA Heatran Eruption (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Urshifu: 370-436 (91.5 - 107.9%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

Nihilego I'll grant you the win versus anything that actually get used, but specs is 92 EVs away from tanking scarf jolly close combat.

fair point changed

Kyurem is another set-dependent one but tbf everything is set-dependent versus kyurem and nobody uses it anyway.

how is this a counter point, W

Ferrothorn's best set is chople ID bpress, which again matches up very well against Ursh.

All this slander about band Urshifu got me down bad 252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn on a critical hit: 177-208 (50.2 - 59%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

LO or specs pheromosa can click Focus Blast relatively free, it's not as common as band but countering all urshifus with it is pretty easy.

Specs Pheromosa yep, I'll give you life orb doe, physical mosa will just lose to chople like I said, I'll say this mosa is another one with better odds to of beating Shifu like genesect

Why is dracovish a win but dracozolt a loss? Both seem pretty set-dependent to me

what is the argument here, shifu definitely has better odds against vish, zolt idk

Zarude: this runs Bulk Up WP to beat like 80% of the Urshifus that people use.

scarf or just bp urshifu maybe even id

Sawk is actually more complicated than just chople berry, Counter can mess with any Urshifu and Wicked Blowing t1 is risky as it means you lose versus faster Sawks

Obviously it's more complicated, but I just narrowed everything down to make things more simple. Also, what's life without risks? I feel like predicting a counter on a sturdy mon isn't too outlandish

Volcarona clicks wisp against nonscarf and roosts up, QDs and OHKOs scarf

we running one stab move volc now?

In the last round of PL, urshifu usage wasn't particularly crazy. Using the bo7 series as an example, there were 23 games total (three six-game series and one five-game series), with 138 mons brought in total. How often did urshifu show up? Eight times

I'll use the bo7 series as examples too I guess since I said at the end of my post

Not saying all the sets are good, but they're all usable and you can get baited so easily. I think it puts way too much strain on team building to the point where you have to put some standard bland ass fairy on most of your teams

also I revised the list with some of the points you added but it doesn't change my opinion regardless.
This is just showing more of a clear cut list of the urshifu counters regardless of sets in all the teams used this week in b07

usage

Me vs Nalei In 6
I brought tapu koko, genesect, zapdos g, zapdos in different teams - 4/6
Nalei brought clef, zapdos and regidraco in the same team, avalugg, pheromosa in different teams - 4/6

HCTC vs Denis 5 games.
HCTC you brought prim twice, avalugg, zapdos, and azumarill all on different teams - 5/5
Denis brought Zapdos G, Zapdos and avalugg on different teams. 3/5

Bopher vs Dogknees
Bopher brought Pelipper (unironically a fire niche check) twice , celesteele, togekiss, clef, avalugg - 6/6
Dogknees brought prim, fini and conk in the same team - 2/6

XSC vs tears in 6
tears brought clef twice, tapu koko, regidraco, genesect - 5/6
XSC brought azumarill twice - 2/6

So out of the 31/46 teams that were used in bo7 had a clear urshifu set beater which rounds up to 68% with a total of 16 unique pokemon urshifu checks out of the 138 total mons brought like you said. Maybe that's why urshifu was not used that much because everyone preps for it since it's such a pain in the ass in the builder? I agree with some of your points I brought this up for more of discussion as imo people overprepped for this and lax this week.

 

[Synonimous]

So out of the 31/46 teams that were used in bo7 had a clear urshifu set beater which rounds up to 68% with a total of 16 unique pokemon urshifu checks out of the 138 total mons brought like you said. Maybe that's why urshifu was not used that much because everyone preps for it since it's such a pain in the ass in the builder? I agree with some of your points I brought this up for more of discussion as imo people overprepped for this and lax this week.

I don't think that building teams that have counters to the best mons in the game is "overpreparing" in any sense of the word. Saying that mons force you to build around them because they're good doesn't mean they're broken. That said, I think Ursh-S and Spec should both be looked at, they're extremely strong rn.

 

[pqs]

Ban Urshifu

 

[dogknees]

To preface this, I’d like to state that this is simply criticism of how things are being run right now. You know me, I’m not trying to demean or offend anyone, just simply state how I feel. Also, please feel free to correct me if anything I've said is inaccurate.


In light of Nalei’s recent resignation, the 1v1 Council has 4 members: Rosa, Alakazam, dogknees, and Waylaid. While others may like to argue their engagement with the current SS metagame, I feel that 4 members is way too low for a metagame of 1v1’s status. I also want to mention that the activity of such council members with regards to actively discussing the metagame was questionable, even before recent events. While I do not have access to channels such as #council, I have heard many accounts from prior and current members of the 1v1 council that activity has essentially dissipated since the Victini Suspect. Also, as of my writing this, there has not been a single message in #council-minutes since 12/12/2020 - almost an entire two months. While I do understand that the metagame isn’t necessarily in a state in which council action is necessitated, if my knowledge of tiering policy is correct, members of councils are expected to uphold consistent discussion on the metagame.

What I’d like to propose to add more council members. Most current members have other significant responsibilities: Rosa and TDA are both TLs, Forum Moderators, Tournament directors, VR Council members, Room Staff, and maintainers of various threads. dogknees is a Room Owner and 1v1 C&C head. Considering the number of commitments most of them have, I think it would be beneficial for everyone if there were more council members to take off the load that they all have.

Currently, tiering councils of official metagames hold anywhere from 8-13 members. I don’t see why we cannot follow this precedent. We certainly have enough knowledgeable people in the community to do it. We can take an approach similar to how OU handled its QC situation, in which they sent out a form in efforts to find knowledgeable people interested.

I’d like to emphasize the importance of having an active council, especially during tournaments such as PL, WC, and LT. Discussion of tours can help with overall metagame development. Large tours, especially team tours with many players working together, lead to many meta shifts in innovations which can be difficult to keep up with for many. There have also been situations with Pokemon such as Mimikyu, Cinderace, Togekiss, and Jirachi that were allowed in the metagame for way too long after some degree of agreement was reached that they were problematic because of a disconnect from the community and the council.

Well, that's all from me. As always, thank you for reading, and have a nice day.

I completely agree that we need more council members. It is inevitable, and as expected when you end up in a position with such a small council. The thing that takes time is picking candidates and receiving back a questionnaire that is sent out which allows us to measure a candidates understanding of and willingness to engage with smogon tiering policy. We have reached out to people and are awaiting responses, and we expect to have new members very shortly. I also speak no word of a lie when I say I was planning to make some nominations the same day as your post as a result of Nalei's resignation. This goes back to a whole different matter of transparency with people knowning about what council is / isn't doing, which I'll address right now. For the most part, council chat has been completely dead not because we don't want to discuss things, but because I personally didn't find there was a whole lot to discuss. Post the initial quickbans the meta needed to settle and it has done so, now providing potential issues such as spectrier, urshifu, and snorlax. These points will be covered once we add more people, which, I would again like to reiterate, will hopefully be happening soon. Personally, I'd like to end up in a situation where we have 8 active SS mains. I believe just as strongly that a council with active and proven players is the best way to ensure our meta is in the best position possible while being watched closely. I understand there's a lot of speculation going around, so let this serve as an end to that temporarily while we sort things out. Thanks for being patient

 

[zioziotrip]

as per request of a certain 13 year old, I am making a post on the state of the meta. The meta is pretty static right now and while PL is underway I'm pretty confident in saying that most of what I am about to say will remain true for the foreseeable future.
The meta at the moment is pretty top-heavy with most if not all teams being some variation of DragonFairySteel with one or more of them being swapped out for Urshi/Lax/Spectrier/Eleki/a mon meant to beat Urshi/Lax/Spectrier. Snorlax and Urshifu are leagues ahead of everything else in the meta with nothing really holding a candle to their diversity and inherent potency. Snorlax posses incredible bulk with decent strength and an absolutely absurd movepool that is further bolstered by Gluttony allowing BD Custap. Urshifu has a really nice stat spread being strong, fast, and is bulky with the lack of spdef being negligible because of berries/AV, on top of that, Urshifu ignores boosts and Protect as well as having options such as prio in Aqua Jet/Sucker Punch and Taunt making it incredibly hard to cheese. There are other threats such a Genesect, Zygarde, and Spectrier which are also pretty potent which require specific attention in the builder. Luckily, Zygarde/Genesect have pretty exploitable 4x weaknesses albeit you have to be careful of WP Skitter Smack and Occa respectively. To better illustrate my point I'll lay out checks for Urshi/Lax.

(Both Forms)
Consistent Checks:
( ) ( ) ( ) ( )
Mostly Reliable:
( / wins outside of orb/cb sucker but you need the boosting item to reliably kill urshi) ( wins outside of the incredibly rare coba or a hurricane dodge which isn't negligible since checking urshi only 70% of the time is annoying) ( wins outside of av ss or orb/cb against no bulk eleki) (Substitute wins outside of fairly rare scarf urshi) (ID wins outside of id rs or taunt counter variants of either) ( wins outside of av ss or hurricane dodge) ( you lose to fringe offensive rs or the way more relevant roseli) ( loses to roseli and 50/50s id rs) ( psychic is really bad in this meta which means you lose to roseli) ( wins outside of id rs) ( wins outside of id rs)
Weird MUs:
these are incredibly dependent on both's sets and play


Consistent Checks:
ID/BU/Taunt ID * ID * * Counter ** ID Taunt *(/ ) ( /)
Usually Work:
ID (has to guess between bd/cb since band gunk destroys it w/o a boost but id getting encored t1/bd t1 are both an issue) (if lax has crash/gunk/counter and encore which is pretty common it becomes a 50/50 mu or strictly losing) (fears chople) Swords Dance Unnerve (if you encore a haxorus you're ascended, cb hax just straight up doesn't kill any variant w sufficent bulk) ( horrible roll vs lax bulked for eleki)
Mons That Pretend To Check Lax:
(massive headache since you can get knock/bu encored but any other move means you'll die to counter/attacks) (Low Kick is very bulkable and you'll end up losing to any custap variant w/ Superpower/EQ/Counter, you could run Counter but that's insanely expensive considering aggron is already pressed on slots as well you still lose to opposing counter) (Fairly cheap to bulk and eleki drops to anything) (not killing any bulky enough variant then it dies from coverage move into Double Edge or Counter) (bulkable and dies to counter, scale shot most of the time will leave you in edge range after defense drop and counter chip)

if you want you can calc for yourself go ahead this will hold up but I didn't want to make the post even more unreadable w calcs

*

Any of the mons marked w/ an asterisk are teachable by lax. The sets are incredibly fringe and uncommon it's mostly just a testament to Lax's absurd amount of options. You have the following:
BD Encore Lariat
This allows you to beat Registeel/Avalugg assuming they ID T1. Would consider this set standard if it weren't for the fact that Lax beats Necro/Cress/Spectrier without Lariat.

Chople Yawn
Snorlax @ Chople Berry
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 252 HP / 140 Atk / 116 Def
Adamant Nature
- Flail / Double Edge / Body Slam
- Counter
- Yawn
- Endure / Protect
This set's primary purpose is beating Sawk but the nature of the set allows you to cheese other shit with sleep turns+200 BP Flail or Counter.

"Stunna" Lax
Snorlax @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 252 HP / 220 Def / 36 Spe
Impish Nature
- Encore
- Counter
- Seismic Toss
- Body Slam / Zap Cannon
This set allows you to beat Registeel assuming you can get a Slam Para/Hit a Cannon within 3 tries. Other than that you inherently beat Lugg and Fini (Helmet cancels out Dkiss) with potential to beat Clef/Pyuku. 252+ Atk Sawk Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 220+ Def Snorlax: 408-480 (77.8 - 91.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO Also this calc

Currently, the meta can be pretty infuriating to build for with a lot of mons requiring pretty specific counterplay. This is especially an issue when talking about Lax. Lax is comically bulky with the only things that reliably KO it being the gen8 fossils with a boosting item, you also have really strong Fighting attacks but considering Chople those aren't exactly reliable either. Lax has an absurd movepool and solid offensive capabilities dispatching a vast majority of the tier with options such as Encore and Counter allowing you to beat even more. This leaves you with a pretty short list of mons that are able to beat Lax requiring ID+exceptional physical bulk, Unaware, or being named Sawk. There are other mons that work in theory but Lax's insane movepool is able to make many MUs pretty unreliable. There is the argument that it's on the player to setguess Lax but sets can be pretty hard to distinguish on preview when you're literally guessing coverage or EVs. There is also the fact that BD/CB is inherently very hard to distinguish between since both have the primary goal of utilizing Lax's coverage. Here is an example.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen81v1-1282145692
Pluck Braviary is an idea that's meant to shut down Lax from clicking BD and thus obliterating Braviary. However, Pluck was used here just to get throttled by CB. Just an example of CB/BD being incredibly difficult to distinguish at preview. Side note, Encore Turn 1 as Lax just wins the MU even if it's a hard play to make.

Lax is a pretty constricting force in the builder with 8 checks unless you count CB fossils which have virtually no usage, for good reason as they are inferior to Custap entirely outside of Lax, with only two of these mons being above B+. Urshi/Registeel/Avalugg are effectively locked to their variants meant for Lax since the checks for Lax are so scarce. Making AV Urshi, Counter Registeel, and CB Avalugg way harder to utilize. You could spread the Lax check across your team with different mons accounting for different sets but this is a bit silly for two reasons. As showcased previously set guessing Lax can be pretty difficult and unreliable. Secondly, you are dedicating 2/3 slots to a single mon which can often lead you with teams ill-equipped for the rest of the meta or teams that are incredibly awkward to pick with. There are also those who like to argue that Lax isn't always running the correct coverage but this is another argument that doesn't really hold water. Just because not every Lax is packing Heat Crash doesn't mean you can justify clicking Genesect into Lax or use Genesect as a Lax check. While you can get bailed by coincidence in-game it doesn't lessen the building restriction Lax causes, it's akin to suggesting that you should only account for Choice Band Urshi Single Strike. Lax can run whatever coverage it wants for very little opportunity cost meaning it is absolutely something you have to handle in the builder. Quick side tangent, Lax checks generally have poor MUs against the other top mons of the tier and standard-killers which is gonna introduce a lot of headaches.

Lax is an unhealthy(arguably broken) burden to the meta. The list of consistent Lax checks is scarce due to its absurd bulk and movepool. This causes the meta to warp around it in a way that makes it difficult and infeasible to make consistent teams that cover the meta.

I will be responding to anything said here or over cord, smogon would be much prefered as it's more accessible as well as as being easier for both sides to get their points across. I sincerely believe that Lax is a bad presence in this tier but I understand it's not the most cut and dry case. Hope everyone enjoys their day, peace.

 

[Trashuny]

I don't even know if I'd even vote ban on Snorlax, but I think it's worth a suspect. I think it would be totally manageable without encore, but man that set is scary. You can't just send in Rillaboom and swords dance, or anything like that reliably. No substitute strats either. It forces so many 50/50s that may not even exist.

An argument I've seen in the 1v1 discord is to just guess sets, but you can say this about a ton of broken pokes that have been banned in any tier, even in 1v1. Snorlax is unhealthy because it has three amazing main sets: belly drum, choice band, and stall, that you play and build around extremely differently. I find the guessing sets argument pretty silly because it implies 2-3 pokes on your team are required to beat Snorlax, which is just one poke. It shouldn't be forcing people to use cores of 2 pokes for just one threat in a meta where you need to cover so much in just 3 pokes. Even then, guessing is just a guess. It can be completely wrong, there's no formulas you can do to figure out which Snorlax it is.

I don't see what issues a suspect would bring at all. It doesn't mean an instant ban. An argument I've seen on discord is that we should take more time in the 1v1pl to explore countermeasures, but we as players shouldn't be forced to take weeks to explore random potentially trash pokes just to beat another S-rank poke. Snorlax's movepool is so big that if anything, there will be more Snorlax sets or options popping up too. I get the idea that there shouldn't instantly be a suspect if the discussion on Snorlax is so new, but it's pretty clearly too versatile and I don't see why we should be forced to play with it longer than we should be. What more can you ask for than that Braviary replay, really?

Having so few people have such a big say in a format that hundreds or even thousands play on PS! is a head scratcher. If you guys don't want to see Snorlax banned, then make a suspect, get reqs, and vote no ban. There should be no issues with Snorlax getting banned if a ton of people want to see it banned. Snorlax is not a complex case where it checks a bunch of other broken poke in place, it's just one unhealthy poke that has very few counters and restricts people's teams and plays.

Thanks for reading, I wrote more than expected haha.

Edit: One more thing I forgot to mention is that if you base your opinion solely off ladder, you will definitely think it's less broken than it really is. Ladder players are really predictable and don't use encore too much, tournament players have told me this poke is way more threatening in tours when used by great players, which I easily believe. Ladder Snorlax is relatively tame compared to the giant threat it is in the teambuilder.

 

[HoneyUwUUwU]

Urshifu Single Strike sets vs VR S-C
Crustle W

How does urshifu-ss beat crustle? doesn't crustle usually run counter? How does any urshifu-ss set beat it?[/QUOTE]

 

[oookkk]

How does urshifu-ss beat crustle? doesn't crustle usually run counter? How does any urshifu-ss set beat it?

wicked blow with main set(av) twice wins

 

[Here Comes Team Charm!]

How does urshifu-ss beat crustle? doesn't crustle usually run counter? How does any urshifu-ss set beat it?

As said before, nonboosted urshifu can safely wicked blow and live (thanks to having much more HP than crustle), LO sets are in an awkward spot but can usually still win by clicking sucker on a counter or wicked blow on a shell smash. Scarf can surprisingly still win but only if it gets a low roll on the first wicked blow.

 

[The Official Glyx]

Snorlax and Urshifu undoubtedly restrict the metagame, as does anything remotely viable. The main question that always needs answering when it comes to determining whether or not something should be looked into is how much. To what extent do they force the metagame to bend over backwards in answering them? While the decision of where the line in the sand goes for these kinds of matters can only ever be made subjectively, it at least helps to visualize what exactly a Pokemon's given impact on the meta is, so I'll be doing exactly that in the best way I know how:

W = Win
L = Lose
V = Variable
K = Kinda

Urshifu

S Rank
Snorlax - W (Taunt or ID)
Urshifu-S - V

S- Rank
Genesect - KL (Special Genesect kinda just shreds you if they know your set. LO/Band can make Steel Beam lose, though that's at the risk of being hit with a Bug Buzz)

A+ Rank
Primarina - L
Spectrier - W
Togekiss - L
Zygarde - W (Taunt or BU)

A Rank
Cresselia - W (Assault Vest for Moonblast)
Jirachi - KL (you could have some shenanigans with Scarf vs Specs and Band/LO vs slow and bulky and etc, but more often than not you're losing to a Moonblast)
Moltres-G - KL (only KL because hitting Hurricane sucks)
Rillaboom - KL (more often than not you're getting 2/3HKO'd. You might be able to bulk a Wood Hammer and surprise someone once with Counter, but that's still prone to getting smashed in turn by setup)
Sylveon - L
Tapu Fini - L

A- Rank
Darmanitan-Galar - VW (very set dependent. You could bulk scarf and get bashed in by band, or outspeed band and get shredded by scarf, but not really both without running Chople or otherwise running your own scarf.)
Necrozma - W (make sure to bulk them Hyper Beams)
Regieleki - W (Assault Vest)
Registeel - W
Urshifu-R - L
Volcanion - L (Specs) (It's not exactly asking too much to make a Volcanion take 2 Wicked Blows from AV.)
Zeraora - L (Play Rough)
Zapdos - KL (Hurricane)

B+ Rank
Aggron - W (make sure to bulk Superpower)
Blaziken - KL (a strong enough Band can KO through Protect, but it's not like it's outside the realm of possibility for a Blaziken to just bulk it)
Dragapult - W
Haxorus - KL (your only shot at beating Unnerve Band is speed tying and KOing with your own Band)
Kartana - W (same as Aggron)
Landorus-T - V
Naganadel - W (Assault Vest)
Porygon-Z - W (Jolly Assault Vest)
Regidrago - KL (with a smidge more bulk than it usually runs, Urshifu can bulk Band Outrage, though you still need AV for opposing AV dragos, which means you need to not only have Counter, but also precisely predict which set it is, using Counter against Band, versus going for the attack straight away versus AV)
Sawk - W (needs Chople Low Sweep in order to be perfectly reliable against potential Counters)
Suicune - KW (needs to not get burned. If you're not Band/LO, this could very well be closer to a 50/50 than a majority win)

B Rank
Arcanine - KL (Bulk Up Life Orb could maybe get around Play Rough, though that really just boils down to spreads at that point)
Avalugg - L
Azumarill - L
Crustle - W
Diancie - L
Garchomp - W (Ice Punch)
Glastrier - W
Heatran - W
Kyurem - W (Jolly)
Nihilego - L (Dazzling Gleam)
Pheromosa - L (Phero needs similar bulk to what it would already run for Rillaboom, but gets the job done, even against Chople)
Raikou - W
Rhyperior - W (BU/ID)
Tapu Koko - L
Tapu Lele - L
Volcarona - L (s/o HCTC)
Zapdos-G - L
Zarude - KL

B- Rank
Aegislash - W
Archeops - W (Sucker to drop them to Defeatist)
Buzzwole - L
Clefable - L
Dracovish - W
Dracozolt - W
Ferrothorn - W
Latios - W
Metagross - W

C+ Rank
Aromatisse - L
Blacephalon - W
Carracosta - W
Celesteela - L (Specs Air Slash)
Chansey - W
Entei - V (Burn)
Gardevoir - L
Gastrodon - W
Goodra - L
Hydreigon - L (Chople Nasty Plot)
Incineroar - W
Kommo-o - L
Landorus - W (KL with Specs Focus Blast but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt with Scarf Ice Punch or a very high spd Chople/AV)
Latias - W
Magnezone - W
Regice - W
Rotom-Heat - W
Skarmory - W
Swampert - W
Torkoal - L
Tyranitar - W
Weavile - W

[43:35:3/81]

From what we can see here, Urshifu is pretty half and half against the VR, given the assumption that it's capable of using every possible set in every matchup. This naturally becomes much less practical when you factor in the reality that you can only run one set at a time. In this case, something like dual stabs with Sucker and Bulk Up seems to cover the broadest niche.

Suffice to say I'm personally not really convinced Urshifu is a problem just yet. You could arguably shave off some Ls with the assumption that all Urshifu could also potentially be Urshifu-Rapid, though A) you still have a sizable chunk of shared losses, and B) when it comes to banning things, only one form has to get the boot, so that does muddy the water a bit.

Snorlax

S Rank
Snorlax - V
Urshifu-S - L (Taunt or ID)

S- Rank
Genesect - W (Heat Crash)

A+ Rank
Primarina - W
Spectrier - W
Togekiss - W
Zygarde - W (Belly Drum Giga Impact/Ice Punch)

A Rank
Cresselia - W (Encore)
Jirachi - KW (Generally wins vs special sets, needs to not be flinched a bunch otherwise)
Moltres-G - W (Even sets that try to be snazzy with Foul Play still aren't perfectly reliable)
Rillaboom - V (While bulky Band Gunk Shot has purportedly been on the rise, it's not necessarily difficult for Rillaboom to use Bulk Up or Knock Off to keep from being KO'd, albeit these of course are prone to getting Encored by non-Band Snorlax, so while they may reliably beat Band Snorlax, it's forced to become a perpetual 50/50 against a potential Counter + Encore + BD Snorlax, which, while taking big losses in only having one regular attack, isn't necessarily that far from reality)
Sylveon - W
Tapu Fini - KL (While the Draining Kiss set may lock down Custap, it's always struggled with the internal mindgame of predicting Custap vs Band, regardless of the use of the move Gunk Shot. In practice, Fini should always win against Custap Snorlax by locking it down with Taunt turn 1, while always winning against Band by boosting up with Iron Defense turn 1, but of course the issue then becomes the fact that you have to know the set in order to pull it off. The reason I'm putting this as a KL is because Fini at least should win, provided accurate set prediction, unlike Rillaboom who can still lose even if you do know the set)
Urshifu-R - L

A- Rank
Darmanitan-Galar - W (Chople + enough physdef to live Band Giga Impact)
Necrozma - KL (This is a tremendously odd matchup, but both Specs and Stored Power have very solid chances at dealing with the prominent Snorlax sets. Specs can bulk 2 hits from Custap and ensure that it never gets to BD, in addition to 2HKOing Band; this of course isn't perfectly reliable, as a Custap Snorlax could make Photon Geyser into a 3HKO if it needed to, which would then force Necrozma to use Prismatic Laser to beat it instead, which would then risk losing to a potential Band, ultimately making Specs into a similar threat to Snorlax as Tapu Fini. Stored Power, on the other hand, can simply set up to deal with both Custap and Band, with the only risk factor from there being a potential Darkest Lariat on Custap, since Band on its own isn't strong enough)
Regieleki - W (Even if Electro Ball does deal with just about any non-Spdef Snorlax, I just wouldn't advise using Electro Ball, so this one's free)
Registeel - KL (Same deal as Stored Power Necrozma in that it only loses to whatever that Zap Cannon unset is and BD + Darkest Lariat)
Volcanion - KL (It is not a tall order to take 2 Double-Edges from Custap while still 2HKOing with Specs. Main risk factor from there is just Custap Earthquake, which is more difficult to bulk while preserving the 2HKO, but even then Volcanion can still be bailed by a burn)
Zeraora - V (Between Taunt, Bulk Up, Knock Off, etc etc etc it's way too hard to reliably call this for either side)
Zapdos - W

B+ Rank
Aggron - W (As cursed as something like this replay may be, a well-bulked Custap Snorlax with EQ/Counter/Superpower should do the trick vs Band. While something like Custap Counter Aggron might get the job done, you're basically sacrificing everything that you need out of Band for just Snorlax, which is no bueno)
Blaziken - L (While Chople Counter might get you a surprise win once, it's certainly not likely that you'll win with it consistently)
Dragapult - V (Band beats Custap sans Lariat/Ice Punch, Disable beats Band)
Haxorus - L (You could run max max lax and still get axed by the hax. Marking as L for the same reason I marked Regieleki as W in that, similar to Electro Ball, you just generally shouldn't run Snorlax spreads that are bulky enough to deal with just Haxorus)
Kartana - W (Similar bulk to what's needed for Aggron)
Landorus-T - KL (Similar deal to Haxorus, except this time Chople can actually cause you issues, which Landorus can't really afford to be able to outplay like Blaziken without sacrificing the power to KO the main sets with Band)
Naganadel - W
Porygon-Z - W (Needs a smidge extra bulk for reliability against Specs, but not really too much to the point of being unreasonable)
Regidrago - L (Dragon Energy)
Sawk - L (Not only is the gimmicky set meant to "beat" Sawk not even 100% reliable, it's also exceedingly easy to play around if the Sawk user really wants to beat it)
Suicune - V (Not only does PP stall beat Band, it gets at least two chances to burn with Scald and thus secure a win)

B Rank
Arcanine - W (Weird, but generally should win so long as you have Aggron bulk)
Avalugg - L
Azumarill - KL (Similar to Landorus-Therian, but if it really hated Snorlax it could run like Tickle or at worst 50/50 a Custap with non-Band Knock Off)
Crustle - L (Band Rock Blast)
Diancie - L (ID BP)
Garchomp - W (Band Ice Punch)
Glastrier - L (Taunt SD CC)
Heatran - W
Kyurem - W
Nihilego - W
Pheromosa - KL (Can't really beat Chople but clobbers the main sets)
Raikou - W (non-Band)
Rhyperior - L (Band Rock Blast)
Tapu Koko - W
Tapu Lele - W
Volcarona - W
Zapdos-G - L (Taunt Bulk Up)
Zarude - W (Encore)

B- Rank
Aegislash - L (It's an absolute hot take of a set, but SD CC Mental Herb wins)
Archeops - W
Buzzwole - L
Clefable - L
Dracovish - L
Dracozolt - L
Ferrothorn - V (If you're a real gamer you shoot for speed creeping Snorlax)
Latios - W
Metagross - V (Very much depends on sets for both)

C+ Rank
Aromatisse - W (Slam/Gunk)
Blacephalon - W
Carracosta - W (EQ/Superpower. Physical Carracosta with Superpower could win, but that requires running physical which I have not explored and don't really care to)
Celesteela - L (Mental Herb Leech Seed stall (it's actually nb))
Chansey - W
Entei - W (Encore Counter)
Gardevoir - W
Gastrodon - W
Goodra - W
Hydreigon - W
Incineroar - L
Kommo-o - L
Landorus - W
Latias - W
Magnezone - W (needs coverage)
Regice - W
Rotom-Heat - W
Skarmory - L
Swampert - W
Torkoal - L
Tyranitar - W (Superpower)
Weavile - W

[46:28:7/81]

While the numbers may look better for Snorlax, the problem of the matter becomes the fact that Snorlax sets aren't really as capable of encompassing as much overall as Urshifu sets. The best Snorlax set to cover the broadest niche looks to be Custap with BD Encore Earthquake and your choice of Double-Edge or Giga Impact; this is of course forgoing the use of moves like Ice Punch/Counter/Superpower/Gunk Shot/etc that it needs for other matchups. On the flip side of things, when you take a look at how Band fares, you can't help but notice how many matchups it wishes it had Encore for, either because it can't win without it, or because it doesn't have as much of an opportunity to 50/50 its way into a win, such as with the Rillaboom example, to which the only way it can potentially win is by set ambiguity alone and hoping the opponent plays wrong. And then from there just about every other set like Chople or whatever falls off even further.

Conclusion

Given what can be observed above, I personally believe that neither Snorlax nor Urshifu pose significant enough of a restraint on the metagame to warrant being banned. If they were suspected, I would assuredly be voting Do Not Ban. With that said, however, I've given it a lot of thought and have come to the conclusion that with 1v1 suspects now counting towards Tiering Contributor, suspect tests no longer need to be carried out as scarcely as they have been prior. This of course isn't to be interpreted as just suspecting things for the sake of suspecting them, so much as it is a matter of understanding when the community clearly feels a certain way about the metagame and coming to reach some level of closure on a given Pokemon's contested status in the metagame that can often only be achieved through the tried and true process of suspect testing.

With this idea in mind of communicating with and understanding the greater community's thoughts on the metagame, council members dogknees and crucify have suggested that we implement a tiering survey, akin to what OU is doing right now, which I am very much a fan of. While I'm not entirely sure of when a good time to have such a survey might be, I'm thinking sometime after the conclusion of a prospective Snorlax suspect might be for the best, so that we can see where the metagame settles (if it changes at all) with the conclusion of both Premier League and the Seasonal, as well as the beginning of Majors.

Thanks for reading-

 

[Turbo Drif ♥]

so i didnt know where to publish this just wanted more people using drifblim and i have 2 sets that work in 1v1

No Knees Blim

No knees Blim (Drifblim) @ Weakness Policy
Ability: Unburden
EVs: 240 HP / 252 Def / 16 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Disable
- Shadow Ball
- Strength Sap

-The first one is viable in the current meta with a teamate that deals a lot of of damage since this boi can beat the more tricky sets that depends on prediction since it can take a hit from most mons and the beat them with strength sap+shadow ball or calm mind+strength sap the otrer weakness is beating toxic stall since in most cases you cant outdamage toxic, another perk it usually beats urshifu unless stone edge hits 2 times.

Since i mostly use gimmick sets he is somewhat reliable to put on teams that already beat a good part of the meta, you can swap wp for rocky helmet if ur facing physical dragons and you can let them killthemself while you heal or if you wanna beat special attackers and like dumb thing use big root and dab on them.

Floaty boi

Floaty boi (Drifblim) @ Liechi Berry
Ability: Unburden
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Endure
- Acrobatics
- Phantom Force
- Sucker Punch

-The second one is a gimmick set that relies on your knoledge and also accepting getting an enemy to 5% hp and then dying in this meta sucks its too bulky (and urshifu should be banned so i can use it)

The Idea of the set usually is to live a hit and attacking with sucker punch or phantom force then endure and acro/phantom to kill the enemy if its faster than you it dies to a hit if its slower than you you can 2 shot it it was really good before the isle of armos now it helps when you have tanky teammates or 2 choice scarfed pokemon since its very hard to predict this set unless you expect it and most people would use the special version with petaya berry, i can tell you with petaya its weaker and you usually dont kill anything but ghost types.

you can also give him weakness policy and bring it with a shedinja and an stallmolga for maximun meme.

i dont know how to link the sets inside this page have a nice day

 

[Blaze_of_Fire]

I’ve been trying to top the ladder for months but I haven’t quite gotten there yet. I’ve come really close, as high as the top 3, but I’ve never quite gotten it. If I did make it, I wouldn’t expect to hold it for long and after grinding at this for days, maybe weeks in-game I’d gladly call it quits. I push switching between 3 accounts, bob3701, bob37012, and bob37013. The first two are currently in the mid-1600s slowly hemorrhaging points due to inactivity while I’m using my third account to experiment and after hundreds of battles I tend to languish in the 14-1600 range. The point of having multiple accounts is that if one goes on a losing streak (and if I play long enough I always do, or if I get off to a rough start) I’ll still have one or two accounts near the top even if one starts to tank, and I won’t start pushing on them until the other one is back where it should be. How many should I use? Three is too hard to manage but two I fear isn’t enough. Bob37013 is mostly being used as a test account to gather information (call me a nerd, I’m making notes on every opponent, team, and Pokemon I face) so that when I make one, big, final push with Bob3701 or Bob37012 and take the crown.

This will be first type being #1 in a tier, and it won’t last, I don’t need it to, but I just want to get that screenshot of me at the top. Right now the current #1 seat “Ily2” is at 1741, and he’s been as high as 1890. The highest I’ve ever been is 1750 with a GXE in the low 70s, so I wouldn’t have to climb any higher than I have before. As long as Ily’s at the top, he won’t move, but if he sees a threat to his power, up he goes again and they’ll be catching him. Yesterday I noticed someone had tied him for first so he came on to do one battle to retake the throne. That one battle was against me, and he won! (of course) I was planning to copy his team and use it in his absence but it had a myriad of flaws and wasn‘t nearly as good as my normal one, at least for me. Odds are that’s only one of several teams he uses. Most of the skilled players I face, including myself, have multiple and switch between them whenever they feel like it. When should I switch teams? When I’m on a losing streak? When I keep running into someone with a Pokemon that perfectly counters all of mine? Since Ily isn’t doing anything and he’s the best player by far, plus no one’s made it high enough to take his place and I won’t need to go that high to hit #1, this is my best chance to pull this off. The runner-up XStatic isn’t doing anything either. I know a lot of what I’m gonna be up against from all the notes I took, so I’m ready.

And when should I push? Sometimes I start off strong with a win streak but normally I start alternating between wins and losses and not making any real progress, and eventually I ALWAYS start going down hill. I normally do worse late at night and better with a fresh start in the morning or afternoon. As for my teams, please help me make a better one. I NEED consistency and reliability. The first team is the one I’ve been using for the past year. Aegislash is an original member and the other two were added along the way. I haven’t found any 1 Pokemon or move changes that really improve it. The other teams was meant to solve the issues of the first and have a higher winrate overall (and I’m not sure which one does) but it too has glaring flaws. The third is a team I copied from UrBoiXander that hasn’t worked as well for me as it has for him, but it’s the only other team I’ve used that doesn’t suck.

Original Team:
https://pokepast.es/f29545935bf138ee

Real hit or miss team, if Aegislash lives a supereffective hit and triggers it’s weakness policy it’ll win, struggles against both Urshifu, Landorus, and other things that can one shot it even with its incredible bulk. The other two are choiced. Urshifu is very frail on the special side and Zeraora hates Ground moves. No Special Attackers. Struggles against Primarina and most Rillaboom and Spectrier variants. A Landorus with the right moves can one shot all 3.

Alternate:
https://pokepast.es/a67806bc11779b4b

Meant to resolve the issues of the intital team and be more consistent, but in the end I’m not sure which trio is better. It’s certainly not as good as I hoped but it’s one of my few successful squads. Primarina with Custap can win many battles it would have no chance in if the berry didn’t trigger, but it can be outplayed. Beats the Dark Types Necrozma loses to. Necrozma is really good most of the time, once it gets set up it’s hard to stop without a crit. BUT, it automatically loses to almost any faster subseed user (all of them, basically), Dark Type, faster Encore user, Taunt user, or Pokemon that Trick their choice items. Rillaboom was meant to be strong priority, automatically neuter subseed, make up for the other team‘s Primarina weakness and be a ”sweeper” that‘s strong to begin with but can get stronger with setup. Loses badly to most Flying Types and some Grass or Fire Types. All 3 are pretty slow, nothing with over 220 speed. A Genesect with the right moves can also beat all 3.

Xander’s Team:
https://pokepast.es/6ab90a4d44644abb

Ask him, it’s the one I see him use the most and the one that counters the first team the best. Nihilego is incredibly fragile on the physical side and loses to any physical attacker it can’t outspeed and one shot. Often at a loss for power and would appreciate many different items, but NEEDS the Power Herb for Meteor Beam to work. Dazzling Gleam doesn’t even kill Assault Vest Urshifu-S. Heatran doesn’t hit as hard as you’d think with STAB Eruption, it barely OHKO’s Zeraora and not being able to hold Life Orb because of Eruption sucks. Necrozma’s the best one, this time a specs Necrozma with incredible OHKOing power, but still automatically loses to most Dark Types. The choice users on this team and 1v1 2 automatically falter to Disable. Probably the least consistent, but not a bad team on Xander’s part.

There you have it. I want to finally top the ladder and then for the most part, and then call it quits. Please tell me what I need to know to make that happen.

 

[Blaze_of_Fire]

Forgot to mention how brutal high ladder pushing can be, but you probably already know that. One win usually gets me a single digit number of points and each loss sets me back 3 or 4 wins because I’m playing people 150-300 points lower than me. And I only have a 70% winrate on average. It’s not fair! You shouldn’t someone that hard for doing well and having one hiccup along the way. I’m doing the absolute best I can and the best teams I could assemble. This is why I’m playing around with the third account to be as prepared as possible to do this in one fell swoop!

 

[nolenot]

With snorlax being banned, urishifu-SS just lost one of it's biggest uses and got moved up to S tier, and sect just lost one of it's biggest checks, but somehow DIDNT move up the vr, so PERSONALLY, i think sect should be moved up to S tier.
#ad
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[STABLE]

agree

 

[Here Comes Team Charm!]

With snorlax being banned, urishifu-SS just lost one of it's biggest uses and got moved up to S tier, and sect just lost one of it's biggest checks, but somehow DIDNT move up the vr, so PERSONALLY, i think sect should be moved up to S tier.
#ad
sponsored by stableprince569

Urshifu's ranking did not change as a result of the lax ban, it was at S both before and after.

A lot of lax checks (avalugg, crustle, aromatisse, haxorus, clefable, azu, LO/Band dracozolt, necrozma, AV regidrago, ID fini) match up poorly against one or more of genesect's sets. Their usage will inevitably drop post-lax, which gives genesect fewer things to prey on. On the flip side, it'd be unsurprising to see some fire types like heatran and volcarona rise in wake of lax's ban, both because one of their main counters no longer exists and because they beat some other mons whose main counter no longer exists (spectrier and fairies, to name some).

The only votes I've adjusted so far have (generally) been for pokemon that derived a lot of their niche from snorlax existing (clef, quagsire, kommo-o, that kind of thing). If genesect has become much more viable in the new environment, that should become clear over the coming weeks of PL.

 

[Kentari]

I’ve been trying to top the ladder for months but I haven’t quite gotten there yet. I’ve come really close, as high as the top 3, but I’ve never quite gotten it. If I did make it, I wouldn’t expect to hold it for long and after grinding at this for days, maybe weeks in-game I’d gladly call it quits. I push switching between 3 accounts, bob3701, bob37012, and bob37013. The first two are currently in the mid-1600s slowly hemorrhaging points due to inactivity while I’m using my third account to experiment and after hundreds of battles I tend to languish in the 14-1600 range. The point of having multiple accounts is that if one goes on a losing streak (and if I play long enough I always do, or if I get off to a rough start) I’ll still have one or two accounts near the top even if one starts to tank, and I won’t start pushing on them until the other one is back where it should be. How many should I use? Three is too hard to manage but two I fear isn’t enough. Bob37013 is mostly being used as a test account to gather information (call me a nerd, I’m making notes on every opponent, team, and Pokemon I face) so that when I make one, big, final push with Bob3701 or Bob37012 and take the crown.

This will be first type being #1 in a tier, and it won’t last, I don’t need it to, but I just want to get that screenshot of me at the top. Right now the current #1 seat “Ily2” is at 1741, and he’s been as high as 1890. The highest I’ve ever been is 1750 with a GXE in the low 70s, so I wouldn’t have to climb any higher than I have before. As long as Ily’s at the top, he won’t move, but if he sees a threat to his power, up he goes again and they’ll be catching him. Yesterday I noticed someone had tied him for first so he came on to do one battle to retake the throne. That one battle was against me, and he won! (of course) I was planning to copy his team and use it in his absence but it had a myriad of flaws and wasn‘t nearly as good as my normal one, at least for me. Odds are that’s only one of several teams he uses. Most of the skilled players I face, including myself, have multiple and switch between them whenever they feel like it. When should I switch teams? When I’m on a losing streak? When I keep running into someone with a Pokemon that perfectly counters all of mine? Since Ily isn’t doing anything and he’s the best player by far, plus no one’s made it high enough to take his place and I won’t need to go that high to hit #1, this is my best chance to pull this off. The runner-up XStatic isn’t doing anything either. I know a lot of what I’m gonna be up against from all the notes I took, so I’m ready.

And when should I push? Sometimes I start off strong with a win streak but normally I start alternating between wins and losses and not making any real progress, and eventually I ALWAYS start going down hill. I normally do worse late at night and better with a fresh start in the morning or afternoon. As for my teams, please help me make a better one. I NEED consistency and reliability. The first team is the one I’ve been using for the past year. Aegislash is an original member and the other two were added along the way. I haven’t found any 1 Pokemon or move changes that really improve it. The other teams was meant to solve the issues of the first and have a higher winrate overall (and I’m not sure which one does) but it too has glaring flaws. The third is a team I copied from UrBoiXander that hasn’t worked as well for me as it has for him, but it’s the only other team I’ve used that doesn’t suck.

Original Team:
https://pokepast.es/f29545935bf138ee

Real hit or miss team, if Aegislash lives a supereffective hit and triggers it’s weakness policy it’ll win, struggles against both Urshifu, Landorus, and other things that can one shot it even with its incredible bulk. The other two are choiced. Urshifu is very frail on the special side and Zeraora hates Ground moves. No Special Attackers. Struggles against Primarina and most Rillaboom and Spectrier variants. A Landorus with the right moves can one shot all 3.

Alternate:
https://pokepast.es/a67806bc11779b4b

Meant to resolve the issues of the intital team and be more consistent, but in the end I’m not sure which trio is better. It’s certainly not as good as I hoped but it’s one of my few successful squads. Primarina with Custap can win many battles it would have no chance in if the berry didn’t trigger, but it can be outplayed. Beats the Dark Types Necrozma loses to. Necrozma is really good most of the time, once it gets set up it’s hard to stop without a crit. BUT, it automatically loses to almost any faster subseed user (all of them, basically), Dark Type, faster Encore user, Taunt user, or Pokemon that Trick their choice items. Rillaboom was meant to be strong priority, automatically neuter subseed, make up for the other team‘s Primarina weakness and be a ”sweeper” that‘s strong to begin with but can get stronger with setup. Loses badly to most Flying Types and some Grass or Fire Types. All 3 are pretty slow, nothing with over 220 speed. A Genesect with the right moves can also beat all 3.

Xander’s Team:
https://pokepast.es/6ab90a4d44644abb

Ask him, it’s the one I see him use the most and the one that counters the first team the best. Nihilego is incredibly fragile on the physical side and loses to any physical attacker it can’t outspeed and one shot. Often at a loss for power and would appreciate many different items, but NEEDS the Power Herb for Meteor Beam to work. Dazzling Gleam doesn’t even kill Assault Vest Urshifu-S. Heatran doesn’t hit as hard as you’d think with STAB Eruption, it barely OHKO’s Zeraora and not being able to hold Life Orb because of Eruption sucks. Necrozma’s the best one, this time a specs Necrozma with incredible OHKOing power, but still automatically loses to most Dark Types. The choice users on this team and 1v1 2 automatically falter to Disable. Probably the least consistent, but not a bad team on Xander’s part.

There you have it. I want to finally top the ladder and then for the most part, and then call it quits. Please tell me what I need to know to make that happen.

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/1v1-metagame-discussion.3587523/page-71#post-7974995

This post might give you some ideas about how to game the 1v1 ladder and achieve high rank/GXE. It also might give you some idea of the dedication and skill it takes to achieve very high placement on the ladder. Rosa made hundreds of teams.

I will give you one tip: You never play the same person twice in a row. So if you play a high ranked opponent, you will not play them again in your next match. But the match after, you will probably play them if you and they are the only high ranked players on the ladder at that time.

I hope you also notice this line in her post: "fulfillment in 1v1 means that I be having fun in what I do, regardless of win or loss".

 

[Adam3560]

I saw Bob's post about ladder pushing from a month ago and figure now's the best time for me to flex:

Insight wise, I find I push best on the ladder at 6 AM EDT cause I'm super alert and I can just hang out with HCTC and chill. I doubt I'll ever get as close to #1 without cteaming or some insane luck in the near future.

Edit:
Having read the post by Rosa that was linked by Kentari above me, I think that hearing someone else's thoughts on the strategy beyond the battling on the ladder, like ladder searching times and choosing what team to pick would be interesting to hear. It doesn't really seem like something that occurs much to me, aside from "picking a team I like and playing till it loses twice in a row".

 

[Adam3560]

Yo, we need talk about porygon2 because this thing is wayy too underrated. Porygon2 has the ability to beat a fair share of offensive threats in the current metagame, and can pick and choose its counters to a degree. In my opinion, it's even better now than it was in the gen 7 1v1 metagame, as many strong fighting types got lost in the switch to gen 8(mega lopunny, mega medicham, mega lucario) and porygon2 also benefits from terrakion being less popular as well. Obviously it’s my new favorite pokemon, and unlike tornadus-t it’s actually good.

Set 1:
https://pokepast.es/8085ccd26c265944

The first porygon2 set is a standard one, utilizing its great coverage, special attack, and analytic to OHKO/2HKO a lot of the top tier metagame. Here’s a list for anyone interested:

Victims(just a quick list, I’ll probably make a viability rankings post this weekend)

- Spectrier(immune to hex, easy win)
- Genesect 50/50(beats life orb/specs/ but loses to physical attacking types like occa and band)
- Tapu fini 50/50(beats trick scarf, loses otherwise)
- Necrozma 50/50 I think?(252+ SpA Choice Specs Necrozma Prismatic Laser vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Porygon2: 295-348 (78.8 - 93%) -- guaranteed 2HKO)
- Rillaboom
- Volcanion 50/50(porygon beats sitrus)
- Darmanitan-g(50/50, porygon2 beats scarf, loses to band, custap can be finessed but you lose most of the time)
- Landorus-therian
- Naganadel(252+ SpA Choice Specs Naganadel Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Porygon2: 240-283 (64.1 - 75.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO);
(252+ SpA Analytic Porygon2 Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Naganadel: 312-368 (108.7 - 128.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO)
- Regieleki
- Dragapult
- Garchomp
- Haxorus(252 Atk Choice Band Haxorus Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Porygon2: 312-368 (83.4 - 98.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO)

Set details:

Porygon2 is able to use its stab hyper beam to OHKO pokemon like regieleki and haxorus with an analytic boost, or its amazing bolt/beam coverage to OHKO stuff like lando-t and garchomp. Shadow ball is there for the best possible matchup against magnezone, jirachi, aegislash, and dragapult(switching moves for disable). I couldn’t justify putting recover over shadow ball on this thing, message me if you can. Spa is maxed for highest damage output and the rest are poured into HP and defense. A negative speed nature and 14 speed IV’s make it so that porygon2 can be as slow as possible without getting OHKO’d by a specs eleki’s electro ball.

Usage tips:

Porygon2 usage is pretty simple, just click hyper beam if it OHKOs, and if it doesn’t then click whatever’s most effective. Just remember that a hyper beam is still stronger than a super effective tbolt/ice beam(225 vs 180 power) and same goes for a resisted hyper beam, so if you’re facing a magnezone just click shadow ball twice and hyper beam on the last hit for max possible damage.

Set 2:
https://pokepast.es/f303a9933612e5ce

Set details:

The second set(bird deuce) is a pun on the word deuce, because it can mean poop but also two(you learn something new every day). This set is just like the first one except it’s ev’d to live a specs porygon-z hyper beam as well as a skitter smack plus two +2 thousand arrows from wp zygarde(zygarde’s attack is based on the set compendium set), as well as still having a higher spdef than defense to beat lorb/specs genesect. This set also has a slightly higher chance of beating WP zarude(196 Atk Zarude Power Whip vs. 248 HP / 148 Def Eviolite Porygon2: 111-132 (29.7 - 35.3%) -- 21.8% chance to 3HKO). (88.2% chance for porygon2 to win),
and also volcanion(64+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Steam Eruption vs. 248 HP / 112 SpD Eviolite Porygon2: 160-189 (42.8 - 50.6%) -- 2% chance to 2HKO)
This set can also always beat avalugg, by opening with an ice beam and then clicking hyper beam on the second move. You don't need analytic boost to do this, hyper beam is seemingly just enough:
0+ SpA Porygon2 Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Avalugg: 68-80 (17.2 - 20.3%) -- possible 5HKO
0+ SpA Porygon2 Hyper Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Avalugg: 339-400 (86 - 101.5%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
17.2+86=103.2%.
Porygon2 also has enough natural bulk to live a banded body press:
252+ Def Choice Band Avalugg Body Press vs. 248 HP / 148 Def Eviolite Porygon2: 234-276 (62.7 - 73.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
If you specifically want to beat LRXC's new fast banded avalugg, just run modest instead of quiet and use 31 IVs in speed instead of 14. This lets you outspeed 252 adamant avalugg by one speed point and then win as described overhead. LRXC if you somehow read this and make avalugg jolly I will speed creep you to the ends of the earth I swear.
Unfortunately, by giving up spa evs for extra bulk porygon2 now has a worse matchup against stuff like jirachi, togekiss, and regidrago, requiring more hits to kill the first two, and losing the 44 percent off chance to OHKO regidrago. (252+ SpA Analytic Porygon2 Hyper Beam vs. 0 HP / 32 SpD Regidrago: 492-580 (90.9 - 107.2%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO)
Also, since this set no longer OHKOs necrozma with hyper beam you’ll have to take your chances clicking shadow ball and then hyper beam. (252+ SpA Choice Specs Necrozma Photon Geyser vs. 248 HP / 112 SpD Eviolite Porygon2: 165-195 (44.2 - 52.2%) -- 16.4% chance to 2HKO)

Usage tips:

Same as the other set, for zygarde just spam ice beam and click hyper beam against porygon-z unless you absolutely know they’re a custap set.

Porygon2 beating zygarde proof of concept: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen81v1-1322939192

Other options:

This spread:
https://pokepast.es/7c287491491992ed
Lets you live a jolly life orb close combat from urshifu,

https://pokepast.es/814f655a267bef95
This lives from adamant life orb. Of course, hyper beam OHKOs back unless urshifu is assault vest.

Both sets in one paste:
https://pokepast.es/2918caf468084002


If anyone has questions about matchups, PM me or just reply, I probably have an explanation ready for almost every pokemon.

 

[pqs]

I'd like a bright powder ban / vote. People on ladder are currently spamming pokemon like Whimsicott which tries to tect+sub for maximum odds of moves missing, then leech seeding. Some sleep mons like venusaur are also abusing bright powder. I was initially against this but it takes the battle out of the user's hands and makes it pure luck to face, which is pain during LT. It also adds absolutely nothing to the metagame. Please get rid of this asap!kaif

 

[Trashuny]

Am I the only person which thinks that Genesect is very toxic in the metagame? I believe many teams cannot be forced to be reliable against Genesect because the amount of pokes in the metagame to cover. In the first cycle of the 1v1 ladder, tour, many good players lost at team preview just to an Occa Berry Genesect with the right coverage. I believe 60% of people on the ladder lost to a prepared Genesect at preview, on average. This is just a guess, but If I could run more than one Genesect on my ladder tournament teams, I would have. The only pokes that reliably beat Genesect are fire types, and I think they are only good now because they defeat Genesect and Spectrier. If people continue to explore Genesect, it will only become better.

Now, here are some Genesect sets I used on the ladder. The coverage can change easily.

Hide

Genesect @ Occa Berry
Ability: Download
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 240 HP / 152 SpA / 4 SpD / 112 Spe
Mild Nature
- Ice Beam
- Extreme Speed
- Flamethrower
- Gunk Shot

My favorite. Very strong.

Genesect @ Occa Berry
Ability: Download
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Flamethrower
- Ice Beam
- Extreme Speed
- Energy Ball

I loved using Timid Genesect! Most players would not run Timid on Genesect unless they are Choice Scarf or Specs, which lose to Occa Berry. If they are a heavily attack invested Blaze Kick or a heavily special attack invested flamethrower, then you can lose to rolls. But that is not common.

Genesect @ Occa Berry
Ability: Download
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 200 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 52 Spe
Modest Nature
- Thunderbolt
- Extreme Speed
- Ice Beam
- Flamethrower

Simple set, usually my go-to. 200 HP lives 2 Tapu Fini Hydro Pumps.

Genesect @ Occa Berry
Ability: Download
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 248 HP / 244 Def / 16 Spe
Rash Nature
- Gunk Shot
- Ice Beam
- Flamethrower
- Extreme Speed

252+ Atk Choice Band Aggron Head Smash vs. 248 HP / 244 Def Genesect: 295-348 (85.5 - 100.8%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
If the 6.3% bothers you, you can go bold or lax, but with the possibility of Flamethrower burn & Head Smash miss I do not think it is important.

Genesect @ Occa Berry
Ability: Download
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 232 HP / 148 Atk / 100 SpA / 28 Spe
Lonely Nature
- Ice Beam
- Extreme Speed
- Flamethrower
- Gunk Shot

I don't know if there was a reason I used Flamethrower instead of Blaze Kick, but this set had powerful Gunk Shots.

Genesect @ Assault Vest
Ability: Download
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 224 HP / 228 SpA / 56 Spe
Mild Nature
- Bug Buzz
- Gunk Shot
- Extreme Speed
- Flamethrower

Assault Vest lets you beat Regieleki and hit hard.

Genesect @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Download
EVs: 40 HP / 240 SpA / 4 SpD / 224 Spe
Modest Nature
- Ice Beam
- Gunk Shot
- Flash Cannon
- Bug Buzz

I am unable to remember what this counterteam was for, to be honest. But, Choice Scarf is never useless.

Genesect @ Occa Berry
Ability: Download
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 248 HP / 236 Atk / 20 Def / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Toxic
- Extreme Speed
- Gunk Shot
- Zen Headbutt

Okay, all of these moves together is strange, but Zen Headbutt wins against Zapdos-G which became very popular quite quickly. Toxic beats Pyukumuku, which was a counterteam.

Genesect @ Occa Berry
Ability: Download
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Flamethrower
- Ice Beam
- Substitute
- Energy Ball

Swampert, like Zapdos-G, became popular very quickly. You can defeat Gastrodon, Venusaur and Aegislash too.

Genesect @ Choice Band
Ability: Download
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Iron Head
- Giga Impact
- Leech Life
- Blaze Kick

A 1v1 Ladder Tour player was laddering with a team with Volcarona as their Genesect counter. I doubted it would be fast, because Volcarona has a lot of moves it wants to tank, so I found them with this Genesect and used Giga Impact to OHKO their Volcarona.

Genesect @ Lum Berry
Ability: Download
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Shift Gear
- Iron Head
- Leech Life
- Gunk Shot

If you taunt a Genesect with a Spectrier, you are nuts.

Genesect @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Download
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 136 SpA / 120 Spe
Modest Nature
- Ice Beam
- Flash Cannon
- Thunderbolt
- Extreme Speed
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen81v1-1330062209-q1ohnbwt3rq8i8l6rdkiunosoveeeajpw

Genesect @ Custap Berry
Ability: Download
EVs: 248 HP / 208 SpA / 4 SpD / 48 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Endure
- Flash Cannon
- Ice Beam
- Flamethrower

Beats Darmanitan-G. Add Zen Headbutt if you want to beat Naganadel.

Here's some I thought up but did not use on the ladder:

Hide

Genesect @ Choice Specs
Ability: Download
EVs: 248 HP / 4 Def / 28 SpA / 188 SpD / 40 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Bug Buzz
- Thunderbolt
- Ice Beam
- Flamethrower

252+ SpA Choice Specs Transistor Regieleki Thunder vs. 248 HP / 188+ SpD Genesect: 291-343 (84.3 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 32 SpA Choice Specs Genesect Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Volcanion: 382-450 (105.2 - 123.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
92+ Atk Garchomp Fire Fang vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Genesect: 292-344 (84.6 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 248 HP / 4 Def Genesect on a critical hit: 292-344 (84.6 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Genesect @ Occa Berry
Ability: Download
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 248 HP / 20 Atk / 188 SpD / 52 Spe
Sassy Nature
- Bug Buzz
- Extreme Speed
- Gunk Shot
- Leech Life

252+ SpA Choice Specs Necrozma Heat Wave vs. 248 HP / 188+ SpD Occa Berry Genesect: 264-312 (76.5 - 90.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Transistor Regieleki Thunder vs. 248 HP / 188+ SpD Genesect: 291-343 (84.3 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Two bug attacks makes sure you beat Necrozma if you gain an Attack boost.

Genesect @ Occa Berry
Ability: Download
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 248 HP / 244 SpD / 16 Spe
Gentle Nature
- Ice Beam
- Extreme Speed
- Bug Buzz
- Flamethrower

252+ SpA Choice Specs Naganadel Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 244+ SpD Occa Berry Genesect: 292-344 (84.6 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
You can run -Speed, I struggle with natures on Genesect.

Genesect @ Occa Berry
Ability: Download
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 216 HP / 252 Atk / 36 SpA / 4 SpD
Brave Nature
- Bug Buzz
- Leech Life
- Extreme Speed
- Flamethrower

Beats Zeraora. Two bug moves makes sure you win no matter what Download boosts.

I did not even touch Screech, Metal Sound, and Steel Beam and still, I had many sets. I think Genesect is toxic because of how many sets it has and how good each set is. An example would be in the last game of the 1v1PL, the presence of Genesect and the possibility of its coverage winning forced a risky Togekiss. https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen81v1-1323469999 I may be alone, but I think a suspect later would be good. It seems like you cannot do it during the 1v1 ladder tournament, which is okay. Use it to abuse Genesect! It's great, I promise.

Thanks for reading!

Edit: I added more sets that I forgot and added that Substitute beats Venusaur

 

[XSTATIC COLD]

This guy is right. Some people abuse genesect, and without it, are lost.