Well I just happen to be using Yveltal Groudon so yay
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2016 March International Challenge
- Thread starter Pyritie
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they can be strong, but you cant just be like oh, this is the best team, and not perform well with it, ya feel me?
Not really, here in shitapore we have Actual Difficulty Medium Sized Premier Challenges™ so we're all Bo1
ahh shitapore!
So the standard Crobat move set is Super Fang, Taunt, Tailwind and Quick Guard. Well, with the advice of Draconid997, I have changed Taunt to Haze.
Haze is a better counter to Smeargle in Bo1 in the long run, being able to negate Moody boosts along with Xerneas' Geomancy. Since my Crobat has Lum Berry, a Dark Void won't be too devastating.
Haze is a better counter to Smeargle in Bo1 in the long run, being able to negate Moody boosts along with Xerneas' Geomancy. Since my Crobat has Lum Berry, a Dark Void won't be too devastating.
IMHO, you the should dump quick guard for haze if anything. Taunting is really valuable in stopping opposing tailwinds, trick rooms, and of course smeargle itself, as your own team mate will not enjoy being out to sleep even if crobat is awake. You can stop set ups from xern, and random protects on the field. Its just got so much utility, that I would keep it. Quick guard on the other hand, has limited use except for fake out, prankster, and extremespeed. Its super situational and is dead weight more often than not.
That aside, Haze is even more limited in use and once a pokemon nets a boost in speed, but it will outspeed crobat before you get the haze off.
Quick Guard's use is limited and situational, but it's not like there's not herds of Kangaskhan running around.
Haha, true. But i would rather get tailwind up and protect my other mon than quick guard with crobat, as i risk not being able to set it up later. There are better pokemon to put it on and of course, if you feel your team needs it, by all means keep it. Testing is key!
I'm participating! I'm using Groudon + Heavy Cress support mainly, but also Xerneas + Weavile's Fake Out.
I'm currently 20-10. I'm going to make a little summary of what works on my current team and what doesn't.
Works:
Groudon. This is fairly self-explanatory. Groudon is one of the best Pokemon in this format and can quickly turn a game around. I have beaten Kyogre and Rayquaza together with my Groudon and Ferrothorn. Basically Attack-Protect and Protect-Attack. By the time they figure out what you're doing, they will be almost dead. I am running Modest Groudon, with Eruption, Earth Power, Fire Blast, and Protect. It is fast enough to outspeed Smeargle and can survive opposing Earth Powers from Groudon. Which is super important.
Yveltal. I use Pyritie's bulky set and it is just perfect. I am considering moving my 4 EVs from Attack (Sucker Punch and Foul Play) to Special Attack (Snarl). Let me tell you, Snarl is OP. Faced with Kyogre? Snarl so Ice Beam only does like 25%. In fact, Snarl in the face of any special attacker. It feels so good to send Groudon in on a crippled Kyogre.
Kangaskhan. Kangaskhan is majorly feared, and it really should be. In fact, I think I only used my Mega Mawile once, and it was in one of the first battles. I'll get to Mawile later. First of all, Inner Focus was the best decision I've ever made. With this ability, opposing Kangaskhan and Liepard don't scare me at all. Just don't Mega-Evolve until the next turn. Double-Edge doesn't even have to be explained. I OHKO'd a Primal Kyogre with it once! It was especially frail, though. I considered dropping Low Kick for Power-Up Punch, but it was useful against Dialga and opposing Kangaskhan. Sucker Punch wasn't used super often but it came in handy sometimes.
Crobat. When faced with Crobat versus Talonflame whole team building, I finally picked Crobat and went with it. And I am SOOO glad I did. First of all, Quick Guard was dropped for Haze. If you think this is a dumb idea, Haze comes in handy more than Quick Guard. And if your other leading partner is Kangaskhan like mine usually was, Inner Focus is perfect. During a Crobat-Kang versus Smeargle-Xerneas lead, I taunted Smeargle and faked out Xerneas. I don't exactly remember the rest, but Xerneas got up a Geomancy. I switched into PDon, ate up a Dazzling Gleam, then Hazed Smeargle's boosts and Geomancy away. I won that game.
Kinda Works.
Ferrothorn. Ferrothorn is not good in almost every situation like Kangaskhan or Groudon, but it can excel if the conditions are right. I mentioned somewhere about beating RayOgre with it. I'm keeping Ferrothorn on my team, at least for now.
Didn't Work.
Mawile.
This disappointed me because it was the one I wanted to use the most. Long story short, there was no situation in which I wanted to use it rather than Kangaskhan as the mega. And if it's not the mega, it's dead weight. A Salamence and Xerneas check, along with Intimidate and Huge Power, seems really good on paper, but it just didn't work out on my team.
My hands are tired now.
Works:
Groudon. This is fairly self-explanatory. Groudon is one of the best Pokemon in this format and can quickly turn a game around. I have beaten Kyogre and Rayquaza together with my Groudon and Ferrothorn. Basically Attack-Protect and Protect-Attack. By the time they figure out what you're doing, they will be almost dead. I am running Modest Groudon, with Eruption, Earth Power, Fire Blast, and Protect. It is fast enough to outspeed Smeargle and can survive opposing Earth Powers from Groudon. Which is super important.
Yveltal. I use Pyritie's bulky set and it is just perfect. I am considering moving my 4 EVs from Attack (Sucker Punch and Foul Play) to Special Attack (Snarl). Let me tell you, Snarl is OP. Faced with Kyogre? Snarl so Ice Beam only does like 25%. In fact, Snarl in the face of any special attacker. It feels so good to send Groudon in on a crippled Kyogre.
Kangaskhan. Kangaskhan is majorly feared, and it really should be. In fact, I think I only used my Mega Mawile once, and it was in one of the first battles. I'll get to Mawile later. First of all, Inner Focus was the best decision I've ever made. With this ability, opposing Kangaskhan and Liepard don't scare me at all. Just don't Mega-Evolve until the next turn. Double-Edge doesn't even have to be explained. I OHKO'd a Primal Kyogre with it once! It was especially frail, though. I considered dropping Low Kick for Power-Up Punch, but it was useful against Dialga and opposing Kangaskhan. Sucker Punch wasn't used super often but it came in handy sometimes.
Crobat. When faced with Crobat versus Talonflame whole team building, I finally picked Crobat and went with it. And I am SOOO glad I did. First of all, Quick Guard was dropped for Haze. If you think this is a dumb idea, Haze comes in handy more than Quick Guard. And if your other leading partner is Kangaskhan like mine usually was, Inner Focus is perfect. During a Crobat-Kang versus Smeargle-Xerneas lead, I taunted Smeargle and faked out Xerneas. I don't exactly remember the rest, but Xerneas got up a Geomancy. I switched into PDon, ate up a Dazzling Gleam, then Hazed Smeargle's boosts and Geomancy away. I won that game.
Kinda Works.
Ferrothorn. Ferrothorn is not good in almost every situation like Kangaskhan or Groudon, but it can excel if the conditions are right. I mentioned somewhere about beating RayOgre with it. I'm keeping Ferrothorn on my team, at least for now.
Didn't Work.
Mawile.
This disappointed me because it was the one I wanted to use the most. Long story short, there was no situation in which I wanted to use it rather than Kangaskhan as the mega. And if it's not the mega, it's dead weight. A Salamence and Xerneas check, along with Intimidate and Huge Power, seems really good on paper, but it just didn't work out on my team.
My hands are tired now.
I stopped playing after going 9-7. So frustrated with how my team performed. It is like my opponents were telling me what to do. And my attacks missed way too often.
My son did not fair much better. He stopped playing after going 10-8.
He had much of the same issues, and he ran into a TR Xerneas.
The one bright spot was Magic Coat Cresselia against Dark Void Smeargle. Thanks to @Draconid997 for that add-on.
And thanks to @iPRODiGY VGC for the advice on my teams.
I have never battled so poorly, atleast in my opinion. haha.
It was like every battle my opponent knew what I was doing and kept switch and taking chip damage, to which I felt like if I would switch I my team would take more than just chip damage.
I was shocked at how slow my opponent's were. I fully expected that my Kyogre would be slower than my opponent's and the same with any matchup of the same Pokémon. It also sucked to lose a Quick Guard from my Talonflame to a Fake Out Raichu.
My son did not fair much better. He stopped playing after going 10-8.
He had much of the same issues, and he ran into a TR Xerneas.
The one bright spot was Magic Coat Cresselia against Dark Void Smeargle. Thanks to @Draconid997 for that add-on.
And thanks to @iPRODiGY VGC for the advice on my teams.
I have never battled so poorly, atleast in my opinion. haha.
It was like every battle my opponent knew what I was doing and kept switch and taking chip damage, to which I felt like if I would switch I my team would take more than just chip damage.
I was shocked at how slow my opponent's were. I fully expected that my Kyogre would be slower than my opponent's and the same with any matchup of the same Pokémon. It also sucked to lose a Quick Guard from my Talonflame to a Fake Out Raichu.
Well since I'm going to DC now, I had to cut the battles a bit short. I had a much harder time today, mostly because the matchup system hated me. Seriously, a 1600 versus 1830?!? But I think I finished 25-16 or something like that. In the very last battle, I beat a really high rated RayOgre person, so I hope that brought up the rating a little. Probably ~1600-1630.
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Also, PDon vs PDon is scary. Mine is modest, but you never know if they are physical or special, Precipice Blades or Earth Power. I won a lot, but their Groudon won a lot too. People must be running FAST Groudon, because mine outspeeds Smeargle and still got outsped a lot. Some were tailwind, but...
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Also, PDon vs PDon is scary. Mine is modest, but you never know if they are physical or special, Precipice Blades or Earth Power. I won a lot, but their Groudon won a lot too. People must be running FAST Groudon, because mine outspeeds Smeargle and still got outsped a lot. Some were tailwind, but...
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This is probably one reason I wasn't really up much for this one and I have only played 8 games thus far because the format has actually gotten more stressful than when I played in January's challenge. I'm glad I'm not the only one not having much fun with it.
I'm a bit used to it though since I play on Battle Spot Special every now and again, but every small misplay is severely punished in this format, and if you make one wrong guess, then it's good game. I couldn't even imagine playing something like this with a prize on the line.
And I'm saying this as I actually started off much better than the last challenge, 6-2, but I'm not sure how many more battles I'll try to squeeze in as I'm getting a tad sick of it.
As the overall VGC 2016 metagame evolves though, it'll be interesting to see if anyone comes up with a niche team to counter the core of Kang, PDon, Dark Void, and Xern that goes deep into the tournament and even makes it to worlds.
It may be less likely than in other formats since a lot of sleeper picks can't take hits from most of the legendaries, but I'd still love to see it happen.r
Edit: But man is it fun to Magic Coat a scarfed Smeargle. Highlight of my day.
I believe I'm either 13-6 or 13-7. Really wish I had the time to play more of my matches, but it's probably for the best.
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I really hate to downplay anyone's victories or game play, but I felt in many battles it was not my opponent's game play that won them the match, but the Pokémon they used.
I had one opponent Fire Punch my Ferrothorn with his Groudon, on the same turn that he switched in his Kyogre. So of course his Fire Punch did nothing. He went on to win the battle with his team of Kyogre, Groudon, Salamence, and Aegislash. He did make a nice switch to save his Groudon for later in the battle, but only because my Kyogre was on the field and his Kyogre brought the rain back.
Now I did make multiple mistakes on my side. I should have went with Trick Room on the first turn, but I thought my opponent's slower Pokémon was more of a threat in TR than out of it. Which I was Taunted first turn, which my Mental Herb countered. I used Ice Beam on my Cresselia trying to bluff an attacker rather than TR. Hit his Pokémon for super-effective and had him down to the red. I thought, good time to TR as my Kangaskhan would take him out, hoping he thought another Ice Beam was coming. Nope Taunted again and completely took TR away from my team until it was too late.
I have roughly 60 battles in with this VGC META. Every team I saw on Pokémon.com from the regionals, I did not see in this tournament. Teams I battled on Showdown were not in this tournament.
I prepared for the Xerneas/Groudon combo because it has been so dominant. I did not see as many Xerneas in this event. I saw more slow TR like teams. Like really slow. My Team my Kyogre was Modest and no speed EVs. Now either I lost the speed ties or they ran negative nature or had low IVs.
I think I am more disappointed in myself. This event has me doubting that I will ever make that jump from an average player to an above average player.
Coming from the forum I use to be a member at, I was one of the better battlers there. Moving to Serebii and Smogon I feel like a complete noob and cannot figure out what to do now.
Hey man, no need to beat yourself up. Im in that same boat, finishing at ~1600 after all 45 battles. Last time around, I went 1720, albeit with a much more tested and stable team.
I completely agree that those tiny misplays can result in huge punishes that more or less declare, the game, but to be honest that keeps us on our toes and pushes us to play better, make smarter plays. And if you lose a 50/50, then there is nothing you can do at that point but flip the coin again next time and hope for the best.
As mentioned earlier, I saw far fewer teams with Kang, Xern, and Pdon and that ultimately caught me off guard. Im happy that people are experimenting and allowing the meta to evolve though.
Edit: Last IC, if you prepped for the Big 6, it was enough to win a majority of your games. Now that things seems to be less stagnant, I'll definitely need to test my teams more against before going into events like this.
I must have been lucky since I missed most of the TR teams this time around, but I honestly felt pretty much felt the same way in the first 2016 VGC event, although I wouldn't let this format be the judge on rather you can make the jump or not as it's horribly unforgiving, especially with teams spamming hax moves like Dark Void like there's no tomorrow. I really hope they take a look at this move after this year's championship. It's taking over the game.
And as much as I hate to admit it since he's my favorite legendary, the Meta game is just way too stacked against Kyogre at this point unless you can fit a decent Cloud Nine mon around him or make room for something with skill swap. And even with that, it's hard to play around Groudon's Stab ground attacks.
Also, I faced a few other cores other than what's becoming the standard PDon/Xern combo, but it that one's tough to match as they both mop the floor with each other's weaknesses. I like(d) using Giratina-O for Groudon for instance since he walls the most common set, but when 1v1'ed against Xern, it's pretty much a done deal. I also find that Ferrothorn is also more of a check to Xern since he usually has to take 2 hits before he can get one off unless it's a TR team, and I learned the hard way that Gyro Ball doesn't kill if it hasn't set up.
This challenge in particular has me wanting to taxi to the darkside and start testing Smeargle more even though I can't stand the damned thing. It's just too unpredictable with some even running Transform!
From what I played with it on Showdown, it feels cheap, but I guess I can see why people use it.
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I disagree with the metagame being heavily stacked against Kyogre. I personally believe that Kyogre is the 2nd best restricted mon in the game, and its viability difference compared to Groudon is minimal at best. Let me explain why:
- Skill Swap and Air Lock are both very fittable on teams. Other ways to cancel out Groudon include Role Play, Worry Seed (which also gives you a small protection against Smeargle. Also messes up Skill Swap weather resets), Entrainment (lol), and U-turn (won't net you weather advantage on that turn, but will reset it at the end of the turn as long as you have 3+ mons left). Wolfe's team is quite weak to Groudon, but it can still be worked around with Intimidates and U-turns.
- Skill Swap weather wars between Groudon and Kyogre typically favor the Kyogre as it can take a hit in the wrong weather, and if it's passed Levitate it can beat Groudon in the sun. Groudon on the other hand can't. Weather removal in general favors Kyogre in this matchup.
- Double Primal teams don't necessarily need Skill Swap because you can focus on Groudon being the primary sweeper while Kyogre acts as a backbone.
- It's one of the most reliable safeguards against Groudon, nullifying its deadly Fire STAB (how many teams without Kyogre can reliably answer Groudon?). This makes checking Xerneas a fair bit easier, as Pokemon like Scizor and Ferrothorn no longer have to worry about being OHKOed. Kyogre can be EVed to survive 2 PBlades, and laughs at Earth Power.
- Kyogre is less cheese prone than Groudon. Groudon's quad water weak opens it up to a bunch of random water moves/HP Water combined with any Desolate Land removing mechanic. Kyogre doesn't really get cheesed
- One of the game's most reliable checks to itself. As odd as that sounds, Kyogre's own high Special Defense makes tanking an opposing Kyogre's Water Spout/Origin Pulse not a big hassle, so it's a great buffer while you work on another plan. If you have Thunder (and most Kyogres still don't have it), you can just run that to win the mirror.
- Its damage output is also just obscene lol.
Anyways there's that. As for the International Challenge, I ended 31-9 with a score of 1802, omitting the last 5 battles to secure some CP. It was a lot of fun; I got haxed quite a bit early but climbing got easier later on.
- Skill Swap and Air Lock are both very fittable on teams. Other ways to cancel out Groudon include Role Play, Worry Seed (which also gives you a small protection against Smeargle. Also messes up Skill Swap weather resets), Entrainment (lol), and U-turn (won't net you weather advantage on that turn, but will reset it at the end of the turn as long as you have 3+ mons left). Wolfe's team is quite weak to Groudon, but it can still be worked around with Intimidates and U-turns.
- Skill Swap weather wars between Groudon and Kyogre typically favor the Kyogre as it can take a hit in the wrong weather, and if it's passed Levitate it can beat Groudon in the sun. Groudon on the other hand can't. Weather removal in general favors Kyogre in this matchup.
- Double Primal teams don't necessarily need Skill Swap because you can focus on Groudon being the primary sweeper while Kyogre acts as a backbone.
- It's one of the most reliable safeguards against Groudon, nullifying its deadly Fire STAB (how many teams without Kyogre can reliably answer Groudon?). This makes checking Xerneas a fair bit easier, as Pokemon like Scizor and Ferrothorn no longer have to worry about being OHKOed. Kyogre can be EVed to survive 2 PBlades, and laughs at Earth Power.
- Kyogre is less cheese prone than Groudon. Groudon's quad water weak opens it up to a bunch of random water moves/HP Water combined with any Desolate Land removing mechanic. Kyogre doesn't really get cheesed
- One of the game's most reliable checks to itself. As odd as that sounds, Kyogre's own high Special Defense makes tanking an opposing Kyogre's Water Spout/Origin Pulse not a big hassle, so it's a great buffer while you work on another plan. If you have Thunder (and most Kyogres still don't have it), you can just run that to win the mirror.
- Its damage output is also just obscene lol.
Anyways there's that. As for the International Challenge, I ended 31-9 with a score of 1802, omitting the last 5 battles to secure some CP. It was a lot of fun; I got haxed quite a bit early but climbing got easier later on.
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You're points are spot on, but let's not forget that Kyogre is only going to have some of those point over Groudon until people realize that specially based groudon is overhyped. Its the only kind that can get shut down by Kyogre and most of the common restricted mons check it very well.
Yeah, my Modest Earth Power does diddly-squat to Kyogre. But by the time I send Groudon in on Kyogre, it's usually end-game and I have other Mons if Groudon can't knock it out.
All true, but with all that, you pretty much said it: Kryogre needs a lot more support to succeed. And to survive those 2 P Blades, you can forget about running an offensive nature and sweeper IVs as the game is a lot more physical past the usual Groudon with even stuff like Talonflame being able to 2HKO the Max SP Att, Max Speed variant.
You're also forced to use something like Rayquaza as your second restricted poke which leaves you exposed if Xern get's set up which could end in a clean sweep unless you successfully phaze it. It's not the whale's fault though. Primal Groudon is just too good.
One way they could shift the balance back though? Give Kyorge Earth Power. Then Pdon wouldn't be able to switch in as safely.
I didn't get to play much this time since I got caught up with other things but the extreme lack of Big 6 in the games I did play was interesting. I would actually disagree with Kyogre needing that much support though, having a way to counteract Groudon's Sun is almost necessary but it's easy to cover that when your options are Skill Swap users like Cresselia and/or using Rayquaza (and honestly there's nothing wrong with using the best restricted legend after Primals and Xerneas, which isn't even a necessity for Kyogre's success). I'd go so far as to say a well supported Kyogre arguably has a more threatening immediate presence than Groudon, because a STAB spread move boosted by weather is really scary. And actually really good unlike special Groudon. I'd say it's pretty telling when Kyogre is actually more common than Xerneas these days as well, Kyogre's great.
It always fells like an uphill battle when using him, but it's probably because I'm forcing the Giratina-O thing because I love using it. I tried using my Altaria as a none restricted option, but the none-Mega's in PU for a very good reason.
It's great that every team isn't Xern and PDon anymore though, even on BSS. Not as many Smeargle teams either which is really refreshing.
Thing is that while Kyogre may take quite a bit of supp to function properly, the investment always worth it as it gives so much back in return. When properly supported, it becomes one of the best shields against Groudon in the game (not necessarily for itself, but between itself and the rest of the team thanks to Primordial Sea), which no other Pokemon can really claim with the same amount of support. In the event that an Groudon receives a similar amount of support, the matchup advantage usually goes to Kyogre as Groudon desperately needs the sunlight to not get destroyed and cannot OHKO Kyogre.
Kyogre's extremely high base Special Attack and the ability to downright blow up so many things in the game often means it doesn't require much, if any, Special Attack investment to be successful. Physical defensive investment is ideal in a lot of cases so Kyogre can take multiple Pblades if it has to, ensuring maximum Primordial Sea uptime. Kyogre can even take a combined LO Adamant Talon BB and Max Atk+ Groudon PBlades and survive, while eliminating both with Origin Pulse.
Kyogre has seen successful pairings with Groudon (obviously), Xerneas (won St Louis regionals), Yveltal (won NJ MSS which was kindof stacked), Dialga (Wolfe), Kyurem-W (St Louis t4), and if you count the earlier season, Ho-Oh. As for Giratina-O, a japanese player made it to 1900 last season on the special ladder with Kyogre + Giratina-O. You don't have to pair it with Rayquaza to be successful.
Kyogre's extremely high base Special Attack and the ability to downright blow up so many things in the game often means it doesn't require much, if any, Special Attack investment to be successful. Physical defensive investment is ideal in a lot of cases so Kyogre can take multiple Pblades if it has to, ensuring maximum Primordial Sea uptime. Kyogre can even take a combined LO Adamant Talon BB and Max Atk+ Groudon PBlades and survive, while eliminating both with Origin Pulse.
Kyogre has seen successful pairings with Groudon (obviously), Xerneas (won St Louis regionals), Yveltal (won NJ MSS which was kindof stacked), Dialga (Wolfe), Kyurem-W (St Louis t4), and if you count the earlier season, Ho-Oh. As for Giratina-O, a japanese player made it to 1900 last season on the special ladder with Kyogre + Giratina-O. You don't have to pair it with Rayquaza to be successful.
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