Serious 2020 Democratic Primary Thread

Who are your favorite candidates?

  • Kamala Harris

    Votes: 43 8.0%
  • Elizabeth Warren

    Votes: 99 18.4%
  • Julián Castro

    Votes: 16 3.0%
  • Pete Buttigieg

    Votes: 51 9.5%
  • Kirsten Gillibrand

    Votes: 7 1.3%
  • John Delaney

    Votes: 9 1.7%
  • Tulsi Gabbard

    Votes: 63 11.7%
  • Bernie Sanders

    Votes: 338 62.9%
  • Amy Klobuchar

    Votes: 12 2.2%
  • Joe Biden

    Votes: 45 8.4%
  • Andrew Yang

    Votes: 112 20.9%
  • Cory Booker

    Votes: 7 1.3%
  • Marianne Williamson

    Votes: 19 3.5%
  • Mike Bloomberg

    Votes: 12 2.2%

  • Total voters
    537

termi

bike is short for bichael
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poverty is a relative phenomenon. ever heard of "cost of living"? it doesn't matter if wages slightly increase over the years if a person's cost of living increases more than their real income does. for instance:
1585497405712.png


what does this graph tell you? yes, americans make more in real figures than they did several decades ago, but when for every extra dollar you make your rent goes up by a dollar and a few cents, it doesn't really matter, does it? the fact that the wealth inequality gap is growing is problematic because the wealthier a country gets, the more expensive things tend to become. there is a difference between how much money you have in absolute terms and how much you can do with it. this is not exactly a new or shocking fact so im not sure why this even has to be explained but apparently even the most basic knowledge escapes the grasp of the average conservative american so here you go, i am generously providing you with information you should have already known a decade ago
 
poverty is a relative phenomenon. ever heard of "cost of living"? it doesn't matter if wages slightly increase over the years if a person's cost of living increases more than their real income does. for instance: View attachment 232101

what does this graph tell you? yes, americans make more in real figures than they did several decades ago, but when for every extra dollar you make your rent goes up by a dollar and a few cents, it doesn't really matter, does it? the fact that the wealth inequality gap is growing is problematic because the wealthier a country gets, the more expensive things tend to become. there is a difference between how much money you have in absolute terms and how much you can do with it. this is not exactly a new or shocking fact so im not sure why this even has to be explained but apparently even the most basic knowledge escapes the grasp of the average conservative american so here you go, i am generously providing you with information you should have already known a decade ago
You understand I just say that I'm largely in agreement on poverty, right? I made that point explicit. However that graph has very little do woth with the individual wealth gap. Btw, in a wealthy capitalist country, the opposie effect happens with what you're proposing. The more competition and the more products and services advance, they actually trend cheaper. I'll give you an example, TVs. Back 50+ years ago, not everyone has had one. Today, those in poverty are most likely to have not only a TV, but a car, a stove, among other products that advanced over time in efficiency, quality, and even price.

Your point only works in a vacuum. It doesn't account for competition or advancements/efficiencies in streamlining better products. That is the US's situation, and that very principle of capitalism is what many of y'all have been fighting against in the recent decade. Additionally, you're forgetting that cost of living varies drastically. If you were to live somewhere like New York City for instance, it is pretty damn expensive because not only is the demand to live there very high, but the taxes there are also pretty extreme, which does not help. So much for a $15 mimumum wage when you're gonna be taxed to living shit anyways.

I'll delve into that last point a bit deeper since y'all believe raising the mimimum wage to $15 is a solution to such a problem. For instance, my governor is enacting such a policy, and believe it or not I have been making less than what I did before for a couple of reasons (and my current job falls within this minimum wage ftr). Firstly, the added taxes alone take away really any gross profit I made compared to previous paychecks--the benefits proposed were cancelled out and even thensone. Secondly, because it is more expensive for my business to have me on, I've had less hours as a result, so that they can actually afford it without needing to lay off anyone. The business I work for, for the record, is a small business that popped up at the tail-end of 2017, they've yet to make any profit. It's not like it's a large corperation. This type of policy comes out of the business' pockets, and for many small businesses like I work in, it hurts them because these costs add up. Lucky for my place of work, they haven't let go anyone, but many others are trying to cut the multiplying costs to accomodate and stay afloat.

And next time, don't be so passive aggressive and say stuff such as "you shouldve known thus a decade ago." Attitudes like that does not convert anyone.

Edit: Thomas Sowell talks about the various reasons for income disparity in one of his books. He summarizes some of the points from it in this:

 
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And I'm telling you we do not live in a far-right empire (if you want that, go to Russia or North Korea), and I already explained that Biden is nowhere near a conservative. I'm sorry, but what an absurd notion. I'll tell you now that a couple of the inequalities you're crying about are not nearly as bad as you are making it out to be (I stress a couple, there are others that are more legitament that I'll go with you on like the fact that there is a population in the US in dire poverty).

One is wealth inequality. I'm not following how the rich being richer is a bad thing, especially while considering that poor are in fact not getting poorer, but also richer. The gap is expanding, sure, but why this isn't a bad thing imo is because having the ability to get ahead is not a bad thing once so ever. I believe people have a right to do that. Jeff Bezos is a great example. He created possibly one of the best online shopping services worldwide. He didn't just get rich out of nowhere; people habitually rely on Amazon, and investors believe in its value.

The other I take issue with is unceasing racism. I do not deny racism still exists, and it is impossible to get rid of it in its entirety. It's a sickness that has has plagued the entire world for centuries. I would like to say though as a country we have progressed profusely. I guess you're gonna have to tell me why America by-in-large is unceasingly racist because for one, given we just overwhelmingly elected Obama not so long ago for starters, I'm having trouble believing that. What I've seen more of is our media trying to frame a narrative out of only partial bits of a story and does not always use the full context or notable statistics.

The rest of your post did a great job embodying a Bernie Sanders speech, so you really proved that you don't align with any politician. You're just like almost everyone else in this thread, friend. I'll stress in more detail, not pushing for a $15 minimum wage that'll be taxed like crazy back to previous levels anyways, eliminating "money in politics" (you weren't very specific there), and taxing the rich (presumably at exorbidant rates such as over 50% of all of their income or imposing a literal with tax) does not make you conservative. It just doesn't make you far left. Conservatism has its own threshold; just because your party is moved dras tically further left over these past years does not mean, in turn, everyone outsiide of that limited bubble is an evil conservative. The spectrum, let alone the world, is not molded around you.
What we have here is a classic example of someone who doesn't understand the fundamentals of capitalism. Let's go through it.
One is wealth inequality. I'm not following how the rich being richer is a bad thing
The reason wealth inequality is bad is not because it means some people are poor, and therefore if the bottom half become richer it is completely okay if the top half become richer too. Instead, it is bad because wealth is a direct representation on how much power you have over others in an economic system. If you own a billion dollar business, you make laws and structural changes. You lobby better than anyone else, you can always outbid someone else, you have direct influence over physical and institutional structures that get built. If you are substantially richer than someone you have more power over them, period. This is fundamentally flawed and there are countless historical examples of this, but Bloomberg is a recent example. Someone was able to pay to get votes and then use them strategically against the man threatening to tax him more than what he paid for adverts.

More importantly, capitalism is fundamentally set up to make money float from the bottom to the top. This is an inescapable reality of this economic system, a rising wealth gap signifies a smaller number of individuals having countless wealth over the rest, so while they are getting richer by a factor of 2x, the individuals get wealthier by a factor of 10x. https://www.marxists.org/archive/pannekoe/1934/collapse.htm
This is bad for the reasons mentioned above.

The other I take issue with is unceasing racism. I do not deny racism still exists, and it is impossible to get rid of it in its entirety. It's a sickness that has has plagued the entire world for centuries. I would like to say though as a country we have progressed profusely. I guess you're gonna have to tell me why America by-in-large is unceasingly racist because for one, given we just overwhelmingly elected Obama not so long ago for starters, I'm having trouble believing that. What I've seen more of is our media trying to frame a narrative out of only partial bits of a story and does not always use the full context or notable statistics.
Racism is another thing capitalists not only manufacture where it doesn't exist, but exploit where it does. THIS is the real reason you will not see the end of racism, not because it is some inherent trait in humans, but because capitalists implement structures to keep it in place, for example to keep workers angry at 'the mexicans' and not at the business owners who employ them in poor conditions for poor money. Capitalists, mostly republicans, also lobby against expansion of education, in the name of the economy or whatever they say, which keeps people believing stupid views, and racism tends to be amongst those stupid views.

I'll stress in more detail, not pushing for a $15 minimum wage that'll be taxed like crazy back to previous levels anyways, eliminating "money in politics" (you weren't very specific there), and taxing the rich (presumably at exorbidant rates such as over 50% of all of their income or imposing a literal with tax) does not make you conservative.
Not eliminating money from politics essentially makes you cozy with republicans, because for the reasons ive noted above and many more that i cannot reasonably get into in one post, it maintains a status quo of evil. Maintaining a status quo is, literally, conservatism. By definition.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effects_of_economic_inequality
 

MikeDawg

Banned deucer.
Black trans women have a life expectancy of 35.

the wealth gap is only about to balloon in light of the covid stimulus, giving corporations more power to exploit.

most folks can't afford property and have to pay rent.

the value of a degree is only depreciating, and the cost of a degree is rising. colleges are functional businesses.

the legacy of primitive accumulation has never been accounted for.

incarceration exists. for profit.

racism is unceasing.

so much of the country is living paycheck to paycheck. trying to stay afloat.
And what has Bernie Sanders ever done in his life to tangibly benefit the people suffering from these injustices? Shit, half the things you listed Bernie has done more to hurt than he has to help.

What you fail to realize is that this isn't a battle between progressives and moderates. You've all said it yourselves: Bernie's ideas are generally "popular".

It's a battle between an incompetent egomaniac and the rest of the country that wants to accomplish something. Anything. Even if that thing is just ousting Donald Trump. Whatever incremental solutions Biden implements will be far better than the status quo. Meanwhile, Bernie's consistently shown us that his only talent is maintaining the status quo (unless renaming post offices counts as meaningful change, in which case he's a maverick).

Single payer isn't the problem. Debt free college isn't the problem. Taxing the rich definitely isn't the problem (lmao). Bernie Sanders is the problem. He is not synonymous with his policies.

If you want people to vote for a progressive candidate, then rally around a progressive who will actually effect change. Not a chronic deadbeat with an empty resume, no real plans, a vendetta against "identity politics", and a blatant inability to pass his own purity tests.
 
What we have here is a classic example of someone who doesn't understand the fundamentals of capitalism. Let's go through it.

The reason wealth inequality is bad is not because it means some people are poor, and therefore if the bottom half become richer it is completely okay if the top half become richer too. Instead, it is bad because wealth is a direct representation on how much power you have over others in an economic system. If you own a billion dollar business, you make laws and structural changes. You lobby better than anyone else, you can always outbid someone else, you have direct influence over physical and institutional structures that get built. If you are substantially richer than someone you have more power over them, period. This is fundamentally flawed and there are countless historical examples of this, but Bloomberg is a recent example. Someone was able to pay to get votes and then use them strategically against the man threatening to tax him more than what he paid for adverts.

More importantly, capitalism is fundamentally set up to make money float from the bottom to the top. This is an inescapable reality of this economic system, a rising wealth gap signifies a smaller number of individuals having countless wealth over the rest, so while they are getting richer by a factor of 2x, the individuals get wealthier by a factor of 10x. https://www.marxists.org/archive/pannekoe/1934/collapse.htm
This is bad for the reasons mentioned above.


Racism is another thing capitalists not only manufacture where it doesn't exist, but exploit where it does. THIS is the real reason you will not see the end of racism, not because it is some inherent trait in humans, but because capitalists implement structures to keep it in place, for example to keep workers angry at 'the mexicans' and not at the business owners who employ them in poor conditions for poor money. Capitalists, mostly republicans, also lobby against expansion of education, in the name of the economy or whatever they say, which keeps people believing stupid views, and racism tends to be amongst those stupid views.


Not eliminating money from politics essentially makes you cozy with republicans, because for the reasons ive noted above and many more that i cannot reasonably get into in one post, it maintains a status quo of evil. Maintaining a status quo is, literally, conservatism. By definition.
Yea, I'm really gonna believe you when you're sourcing from marxist.org. I'm not taking this serious when its evident that Marxism has led to mass poverty and the destruction of many once prosperous countries.

Additionally, you did not give sufficient reason on the racism point, you simply said its status quo without explaining why racisn is on the high on a national scale. No one is angry at 'the Mexicans,' (except according to you all Republicans, which still doesn't prove racism on a national and systematic level, let alone statistically or without controversal antecedol evidence like you are presenting) and your strawmanning the conservative view of education. Many want to give kids the option to go to a better school if the government-funded school they're in is failing them. Take many inner city schools with low graduation rates and high levels of bullying, detention/suspension rates, and low standardized tests scores (usually pitting at least some blame on how the teacher is teaching). Personally, I'd want my child to succeed, and if it means the ability to transfer to a better school disctrict or a private school if it was a better option, I'd rather put my kid in one of those places in a heartbeat. Don't tell me that I don't care about education. I'm going to be an educator, so my view is quite the opposite. You don't know stupid until you discover that many college campuses are rallying against freedom of speech and the ability to share and contrast multiple view points. Being seasoned in opinion-forming does not make you stupid--its much better than being in an echo chamber like many campuses sadly are. Iron sharpens iron as I like to say, it strengthens critical thinking.

Edit: Bloomberg is an awful example because he only won 5 electoral votes. With all of the money he has, he didn't accomplish a damn thing. He wasted it more than anything. And for the record, remember whose voting for these people in the primaries: its the constituents of your own party. Your party rejected Bernie Sanders as well on a sweeping level in the south and in the midwest, not just the establishment.
 
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MikeDawg

Banned deucer.
View attachment 232080

just an interesting graph i found on the internet, u can interpret it however u like :)
Do you have data on how enthusiastic Bernie's supporters are? I'm sure the 12 people who voted for him in the primary were super eager to pencil in his name. (◔‿◔)

Thank god adults are capable of voting for someone they don't find E X C I T I N G, because speaking of juvenile approaches to politics...
 
Additionally, you did not give sufficient reason on the racism point, you simply said its status quo without explaining why racisn is on the high on a national scale.
Racism is going to stay in place, and I gave reasons for that. Whether or not it will diminish slowly over time is another question, but i was responding to you specifically saying racism wouldn't go away.

No one is angry at 'the Mexicans,' (except according to you all Republicans, which still doesn't prove racism on a national and systematic level, let alone statistically or without controversal antecedol evidence like you are presenting)
This was not a proof of racism, but an example of where racism benefits capitalists.

Many want to give kids the option to go to a better school if the government-funded school they're in is failing them.
Not republicans in power, who rely on the votes of the uneducated.

Don't tell me that I don't care about education. I'm going to be an educator, so my view is quite the opposite.
I never said this, in fact I wish you luck on your journey.

Bloomberg is an awful example because he only won 5 electoral votes. With all of the money he has, he didn't accomplish a damn thing.
Like i said, bloomberg successfully bought enough votes to then endorse and strengthen Biden, who would not have taxed him as much as Bernie. Under Bernie's wealth tax, bloomberg would have paid more than he did for adverts. As such, he did not accomplish nothing.

Yea, I'm really gonna believe you when you're sourcing from marxist.org.
You didn't even read it. What were you saying about that whole 'multiple viewpoints' thing?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effects_of_economic_inequality If you dont care for marxists at least read wikipedia.
 
You didn't even read it. What were you saying about that whole 'multiple viewpoints' thing?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effects_of_economic_inequality If you dont care for marxists at least read wikipedia.
Because I do know what Marxism is, and I hace researched it plenty. Doesn't mean I agree with it, in actuality I think it's a dumb idea that was even proven dumb, and more so harmful, when tried.

Also, to make a long post short, I also said racism will always exist, what I was arguing against was that racism is impossible to erase entirely and racism is not unceasing on a systematic or national level. I'm not even going address the uneducated voters point.
 

MikeDawg

Banned deucer.
Like i said, bloomberg successfully bought enough votes to then endorse and strengthen Biden, who would not have taxed him as much as Bernie. Under Bernie's wealth tax, bloomberg would have paid more than he did for adverts.
Under Bernie's wealth tax, Bloomberg wouldn't pay anything, because Bernie would never pass his wealth tax. He wouldn't pass it through Congress, and he certainly wouldn't pass it through the conservative Supreme Court. There is literally no evidence that he'd suddenly become a shrewd politician after 3 decades of accomplishing nothing. In fact, all data points to the contrary.

That's the disconnect. I want results, and you want empty posturing. The problem with that approach is it does nothing to help the people you supposedly care about. It's diametrically opposed to the urgency of Bernie's rhetoric.
 
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termi

bike is short for bichael
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Do you have data on how enthusiastic Bernie's supporters are? I'm sure the 12 people who voted for him in the primary were super eager to pencil in his name. (◔‿◔)

Thank god adults are capable of voting for someone they don't find E X C I T I N G, because speaking of juvenile approaches to politics...
this is not about bernie sanders? nor did i say that i would only vote for an "exciting" candidate? perhaps i only meant to say "hey, there is a significant portion of biden supporters who may simply not go outside on election day if it's raining, this could mean trouble for our favorite uncle '9-times-accused-of-sexual-misconduct' joe"

also i dont care nearly as much about bernie sanders as you seem to think i do, for me he is just arguing for basic shit america should have and could have already had many decades ago. many of my friends and loved ones are poor american trans women and i would like for them to have a government that doesnt proliferate their suffering. i see bernie sanders as the only person who fulfills that criterium within the presidential race. but please do keep screeching on about how the bernie bros are totally juvenile for wanting things to be better and you are totally a responsible adult for uncritically parroting talking points of wealthy and powerful people and telling those goddamn poors that better things are not possible
 

MikeDawg

Banned deucer.
this is not about bernie sanders? nor did i say that i would only vote for an "exciting" candidate? perhaps i only meant to say "hey, there is a significant portion of biden supporters who may simply not go outside on election day if it's raining, this could mean trouble for our favorite uncle '9-times-accused-of-sexual-misconduct' joe"
1. It is about Bernie Sanders, because he is Biden's opponent. Trashing Biden at this point does nothing but help Bernie (and Trump).

2. Never said you would only vote for an exciting candidate.

3. That's not a reasonable conclusion to draw from your image, hence why "boring" Biden trounced "exciting" Bernie in the most decisive landslide since 2000.

the bernie bros are totally juvenile for wanting things to be better and you are totally a responsible adult for
The Bernie bros are totally juvenile because they don't want things to be better, they just want to sound holier-than-thou.

If you truly believe that Bernie Sanders is the path towards tangibly making things better, then you're completely ignoring his legislative record, current election data, and how the US government functions. It's all empty posturing that accomplishes nothing in the current reality.

If you recognize that Bernie Sanders is a poor candidate to tangibly make things better, and you support him just for the sake of shifting the overton window, so be it. But then don't pretend you give a shit about urgently fixing people's lives.

uncritically parroting talking points of wealthy and powerful people and telling those goddamn poors that better things are not possible
To say that I'm the one uncritically parroting talking points itt is laughable.

You know what's deplorable? Telling those goddamn poors that if they send Bernie Sanders $27, he will fix all (or any) of their problems. He's taken hundreds of millions of dollars from working class people via campaign contributions. What do they have to show for it? What has Bernie ever done in his life to stick it to those "wealthy and powerful" people that make you so upset?
 
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GatoDelFuego

The Antimonymph of the Internet
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One is wealth inequality. I'm not following how the rich being richer is a bad thing, especially while considering that poor are in fact not getting poorer, but also richer. The gap is expanding, sure, but why this isn't a bad thing imo is because having the ability to get ahead is not a bad thing once so ever. I believe people have a right to do that. Jeff Bezos is a great example. He created possibly one of the best online shopping services worldwide. He didn't just get rich out of nowhere;
You should go work in an amazon warehouse for a few months and see if ur thoughts change

Even Poor People Can Afford Refrigerators
 

tcr

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And I'm telling you we do not live in a far-right empire (if you want that, go to Russia or North Korea), and I already explained that Biden is nowhere near a conservative. I'm sorry, but what an absurd notion. I'll tell you now that a couple of the inequalities you're crying about are not nearly as bad as you are making it out to be (I stress a couple, there are others that are more legitament that I'll go with you on like the fact that there is a population in the US in dire poverty).
In terms of American politicking, no Biden is not conservative he is a blue wave Democrat and is liberal. This is not a result of a unified definition of what constitutes liberalism and what constitutes conservatism but rather a remarking on the regressivism of modern American conservatives. On a global scale and on the measure of the Overton window, Biden is indeed conservative. Even his slogan, a return to normalcy, reflects a conservative shift back to the status quo. You two are arguing with different definitions of "conservatism" in mind, with dice incorporating his definition based off other countries whereas you are arguing in reflection of American neoliberals. This is a moot point and doesn't get anyone anywhere however but I figured I would try to clarify where you two were miscommunicating.

One is wealth inequality. I'm not following how the rich being richer is a bad thing, especially while considering that poor are in fact not getting poorer, but also richer. The gap is expanding, sure, but why this isn't a bad thing imo is because having the ability to get ahead is not a bad thing once so ever. I believe people have a right to do that. Jeff Bezos is a great example. He created possibly one of the best online shopping services worldwide. He didn't just get rich out of nowhere; people habitually rely on Amazon, and investors believe in its value.
People getting richer is not necessarily a bad thing. What people most take issue with wealth inequality is that once you are in that "in crowd" it is remarkably easy to remain in that crowd. As a different user stated, capitalism is designed to funnel money to the top, with the theory that that money would then distribute amongst the people in terms of various social benefits: expansion of the corporation resulting in newer jobs, expansion of job benefits, the companies pay into taxes which go to social programs. I do not think this is a bad thing and when practiced can produce a lot of good for the welfare of the citizens.

The problem comes when corporations subvert that. I do not decry Bill Gates being a billionaire and making it to the top because he uses his money and influence in ways that benefit society overall. I do decry corporations that use their profits to buy back stock, to raise salaries of CEOs to absurdly high levels, to not pay any money in federal taxes (as in the case of Amazon). Therein lies the fundamental problems associated with a pure capitalist society: the capitalist' only goal and only appeal to virtue is to increase the amount of capital. All actions are justified in pursuit of capital because it is with capital that they can influence the world in a positive manner. The problem comes when they get stuck in a loop, justifying actions in pursuit of capital so they can then make more capital and so on, without ever redistributing that back into society. In the economic theory of Adam Smith this is solved by the free hand of the market. People will simply stop buying products of an amoral corporation which does not put back as much as it hoards from society, but this is simply not the case in modern America due to corporate lobbying and stock buybacks, in which an oligarchial corporate board dictates the laws to most benefit their existing power structure and maintains and keeps power through stock buybacks.

I think any user trying to slide in Marxist theory to Deceit is wasting their time, there is too much controversy surrounding the outcome of authoritarian regimes and the connotation of, and it is not in the right academic climate for him to be susceptible to it. One can describe wealth inequality and critiques of modern American capitalism without necessarily pointing to Marxism, even if it would just be easier for him to research it more.

The other I take issue with is unceasing racism. I do not deny racism still exists, and it is impossible to get rid of it in its entirety. It's a sickness that has has plagued the entire world for centuries. I would like to say though as a country we have progressed profusely. I guess you're gonna have to tell me why America by-in-large is unceasingly racist because for one, given we just overwhelmingly elected Obama not so long ago for starters, I'm having trouble believing that. What I've seen more of is our media trying to frame a narrative out of only partial bits of a story and does not always use the full context or notable statistics.
I think this is true. This is a point we can agree upon, that America has progressed a lot on the topic of tackling racism, sexism, homophobia, etc. The election of the first black president was indeed a momentous event.

In terms of progress there is indeed a positive trend, but that does not mean that racism does not exist or that it is not a problem core to America's foundations as a society. Both you and dice are correct in your own ways. I won't touch on "media narrative," I do agree with you there but I also think that you are underselling it.

For better understanding dice's point, one only needs to look at the most clear-cut example of systemic racism in the country: racial disparity in criminal sentencing. One can point to the fact that 1/10th of every black person nationally is in jail or prison on any given day in America, or that black people are far more likely to be sentenced to serve time for non-violent crimes than white people, the fact is that for committing the same crime black people endure a 19.1% longer sentence than white people. (source). One can point to a lower population for wondering why 10% of the black population is in jail on any given day, or point to statistics with racist connotations like the old 13% of the population commits 50% of crime, but I personally don't believe there is any excuse for the exact same crime receiving different sentencing. There is a plethora of data to suggest that there is racial disparity in a host of other areas in society, from the health care industry to the housing industry to even the job market (with interesting correlations, such as a more "black" sounding name being far less likely to get a job compared to a white sounding name in double blind studies).

Is racism in society trailing downward? Yes, I do believe so. I do think there are lots of "faux crimes" that get called out for nonsensical reasons. You can see evidence of this in this very thread, one example is the implication that you are sexist if you don't believe Elizabeth Warren over Bernie Sanders from ages ago. Do I believe that they are completely gone? Absolutely not, and it is for this reason that there are a great many people fighting for egalitarianism. Unfortunately with any movement it is important to be able to discern the separation between the goals you want and extremists who fight for regressive ideals (which, if I might make a bold hypothesis, might be where stem some of your concerns; that you might decry fauxgressives who argue for a reversal of race and sex power structures).
 

MikeDawg

Banned deucer.
Not to mention that his brilliant online shopping service generates practically no operating revenue. The main reason behind Bezos' stock gains is that he decided to let people host things on Amazon's servers. That's pretty much it.

Dece1t, do you really think that's a big enough accomplishment to justify having a higher net worth than 90 countries? In other words, do you think Bezos is more accomplished and deserving than everyone in those countries combined? All while being the least charitable of the big billionaires?

Do you think Bezos deserves to have an unfathomable amount of money more than a single mom deserves to have affordable child care? Do you think it makes any economic sense for him to have $119bil in unused assets when $20k would be life-changing for the average American?

Just as Biden said: we could take away 99% of Bezos' wealth, and nothing about his lifestyle would fundamentally change. He's pointlessly hoarding tens of billions of dollars that could be in the hands of people who need it. That's inconsiderate, to say the least.
 

Stratos

Banned deucer.
This isn't anything I have researched thoroughly but I've heard that a generation ago, Gates was reviled as a scoundrel who used shady business practices to get to the top. to combat this he started donating most of his wealth to charity after his functional retirement as a PR move, and now people are saying "there can be good billionaires like gates." In a generation bezos might donate 100b to charity, but that doesn't help the people he trampled on to get where he is.
 

termi

bike is short for bichael
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fellxs can we please not dedicate entire essays to dece1t, cmon now

1. It is about Bernie Sanders, because he is Biden's opponent. Trashing Biden at this point does nothing but help Bernie (and Trump).
im not even trashing him in this specific instance, although i have zero reason not to. see, unlike you, i have something called "standards," and joe biden does not meet my "standards" of what arguably the most powerful world leader should be (neither does trump, mind you, which is why i simply wouldnt endorse either). see, i believe joe biden is, at best, a serial molester, in addition to being too mentally unfit to be president and too conservative and wall street-friendly to make any significant difference for any of the people i care about. just because you see nothing particularly wrong with voting for this sorry excuse of a human being doesn't mean that others cannot arrive at their own conclusions. also, keep in mind that we are making posts on a pokemon forum, so i seriously doubt that i am either "hurting" or "helping" anybody here

3. That's not a reasonable conclusion to draw from your image, hence why "boring" Biden trounced "exciting" Bernie in the most decisive landslide since 2000.
this landslide victory mostly shows how most people dont give enough of a shit to turn up for their primaries. would have to double check this but the trump camp has been excitedly clamoring their primaries drew higher turnout than the dem primaries despite the fact trump is an incumbent. this seems worrying! now of course the biden-trump polls show biden taking a decisive lead so this doesn't have to mean anything, but do not pretend there is a whole lot of enthusiasm behind biden. he really does rely on that "negative patrisanship" raikoulover has been talking about to do the job for him, he's not gonna make it far purely based on his own merit (seeing as he practically has none other than that shiny "obama's vp" badge)

The Bernie bros are totally juvenile because they don't want things to be better, they just want to sound holier-than-thou.
oh yeah? prove it

If you truly believe that Bernie Sanders is the path towards tangibly making things better, then you're completely ignoring his legislative record, current election data, and how the US government functions. It's all empty posturing that accomplishes nothing in the current reality.
i'll let Machoke or whoever take care of this because this argument is demonstrably bunk but im really not gonna go through the effort to look up sources for you. the short answer is that, yes, if you are vastly more "progressive" than basically anyone else in your governmental body of choice it will be difficult to accomplish as much as somebody who is perfectly in the center of things, but with that fact in mind, bernie sanders has been to my knowledge pretty good at pushing things leftward even if it does not directly show up in his policy record

If you recognize that Bernie Sanders is a poor candidate to tangibly make things better, and you support him just for the sake of shifting the overton window, so be it. But then don't pretend you give a shit about urgently fixing people's lives.
i mean, please do inform me what the alternative is if we want to urgently fix people's lives, because biden is not it, trump is definitely not it, and uhhh oh that's right there is no alternative beyond that at this point. one can engage in political activism and local politics and i would in fact highly encourage people reading this to do so, but as far as the presidental elections go? it is either choosing stagnation and a return to a false sense of "normalcy" under biden or further degeneration under trump, which is not much of a choice if you are near the bottom of the pecking order

To say that I'm the one uncritically parroting talking points itt is laughable.
i know this thread may make you feel like a politicaly minority but you really are just the representative of "moderate" cable news and upper class liberals here, nothing you are saying goes particularly against the general line of the political establishment. is this not true? if it is true, tell me why it is that you feel comfortable defending the relatively powerful against the relatively powerless

You know what's deplorable? Telling those goddamn poors that if they send Bernie Sanders $27, he will fix all (or any) of their problems. He's taken hundreds of millions of dollars from working class people via campaign contributions. What do they have to show for it? What has Bernie ever done in his life to stick it to those "wealthy and powerful" people that make you so upset?
im pretty sure the people who donated for him knew fully well that there would be a good chance that he would not win the elections, but please do keep patronizing the poor and pretending that they have been collectively duped into throwing their support behind pretty much the only person in the senate who puts poor workers at the top of his agenda and is willing to unambiguously antagonize the capitalist class to some degree
 
To add to termi's post,
Bernie's whole brand of politics is a grassroots movement that works from the outside in. He tries to mobilize people and put pressure to make things work in one way or another. This may accompany legislation, be used as a tool to shift the overton window, etc. An example of this was Bernie being a leader in Amazon changing their mon wage to 15 dollars an hour back in 2018.
Despite this he has worked on passing ammendments in his time thru the Senate, often in a way that wasn't partisan (recall he is independent). In his career he was one of the most prolific ammendment passers, including ammendments in increased childcare funds and implementation of cancer registries.
I think his biggest effect has been in shifting the overton window on key issues like healthcare, income inequality, corruption in campaigns, etc. From recent polling we see trends of medicare for all continue to increase to the point the majority of the democratic base favors it.
In his brand of politics, the movement of people demanding things that they want loudly will translate to congresspeople and senators, who are supposed to represent the people (see: democracy), to begin adopting and supporting these ideals and bills will be easier to pass getting them done.

It's fine to disagree with this kind of politics but many of the posts in this thread seem to fundamentally misunderstand it.
 

Mr.E

unban me from Discord
is a Two-Time Past SPL Champion
Bernie's dead in the water at this point vis-a-vis the Democratic nomination but I think avoiding supporting him just because he wasn't able to unilaterally prevent the Republican party from torpedoing this country for the past 40 years is awfully idealistic. Are we just supposed to roll over and let the bad guys win, so to speak, rather than attempt stopping them? If you can't achieve perfection, don't bother trying to make things better at all? :pikuh:
 

MikeDawg

Banned deucer.
Termi said:
Biden won the working class. On Super Tuesday, Bernie's strongest demographic was--you guessed it--white, male, twenty-somethings. Biden beat him in nearly every other area.

But please do keep patronizing the poor and pretending that they have been collectively duped into throwing their support behind Joe Biden, who Bernie Sanders himself described as "a man who has devoted his entire life to public service and to the well being of working families and the middle class," and is able to actually pass reforms to improve the lives of people to some degree

Machoke said:
Despite this he has worked on passing ammendments in his time thru the Senate, often in a way that wasn't partisan (recall he is independent). In his career he was one of the most prolific ammendment passers, including ammendments in increased childcare funds and implementation of cancer registries.
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If we take a guess based on the bills he's passed, ~883 of his amendments were renaming post offices. No wonder USPS workers love him!

Maybe in-between his livestreams, Captain Amendment should've been in the Senate adding amendments to the coronavirus response bills. Plenty of other Senators took that opportunity:

https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-congress/house-bill/748/amendments
 
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Biden won the working class. On Super Tuesday, Bernie's strongest demographic was--you guessed it--white, male, twenty-somethings. Biden beat him in nearly every other area.
Bernie's most consistent voting bloc was latinos, specifically young latinos
Also maybe you forgot but we're voting for president, not for "who passed the most bills in the senate."
Different people say different things about Bernie and his record. There are outlets who say it's great and outlets who say it sucks. There are some who measure his amendments and some his bills and some who measure his voting record and some take into account other ways he used his position like the filibuster.
When it comes down to it, Bernie has the best policy platform of any candidate. Even if he got 0% of the vote from this point forward, or if he never passes another bill in his life- his policies as of right now are the ones that will most improve the lives of the working class, the sick, young people, and the planet. And because he's not beholden to corporations and rich donors, he will not skip out of passing key legislation or at least fighting for it when he gets into office... unlike Biden.
 

MikeDawg

Banned deucer.
Termi said:
this landslide victory mostly shows how most people dont give enough of a shit to turn up for their primaries. would have to double check this but the trump camp has been excitedly clamoring their primaries drew higher turnout than the dem primaries despite the fact trump is an incumbent. this seems worrying!

he's not gonna make it far purely based on his own merit (seeing as he practically has none other than that shiny "obama's vp" badge)
Biden set record numbers in the states he swept, many of which were swing states. He's now winning in the biggest landslide since 2000. Bernie was only successful when the vote was split. It's telling that Biden won Virginia by more than Bernie won Vermont (where he's supposedly the most popular politician in the country).

Trump got more votes in a couple early states. That said, his turnout has been notably high for a re-election campaign. That's scary, but it's an even bigger problem for Bernie since he hasn't been able to energize voters in the primaries.

Machoke said:
Even if he got 0% of the vote from this point forward, or if he never passes another bill in his life- his policies as of right now are the ones that will most improve the lives of the working class, the sick, young people, and the planet.
What are you not understanding? Bernie's policies wouldn't help anyone, because he has no way to pass or pay for them. That's the problem. Even the most talented legislator in Congress wouldn't be able to get Bernie's platform through the Senate. How would one of the least talented legislators in Congress have a shot? He's had 30 years to show his leadership in effecting change through Congress, and he's done a below-average job.

Bernie's platform would be the best in a perfect world with unlimited political capital and funds, but we don't live in a perfect world. If we did, everyone else's platforms would look more like Bernie's.

The biggest difference between presidential candidate Bernie and presidential candidate Biden is that Bernie lies about what he can achieve, and Biden doesn't. If he were honest, his platform would look just like Biden's, except fewer civil rights protections and more legal weed.
 
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Luck O' the Irish

banned in dc
is a Tiering Contributor
At the end of the day, I don’t see how someone who will be able to do actually things in very small measures that at the end of the day do very little or nothing to fix our systemic issues is preferable to someone who might be stonewalled at every turn from accomplishing actually useful objectives. I understand the vast majority of bernies items would have to be accomplished via executive order if they were gonna even happen. At the end of the day, I know m4a would be unlikely to make it through bernies term. In my eyes, someone who I believe actually wants to make this happen is better than someone whose platform is essentially “what happened in 2016 is an outlier, and if we get rid of trump now we won’t ever have to worry about that again.” This to me is just the definition of insanity- changing nothing, and expecting things to change
 
what luck o the irish said

The biggest difference between presidential candidate Bernie and presidential candidate Biden is that Bernie lies about what he can achieve, and Biden doesn't. If he were honest, his platform would look just like Biden's, except fewer civil rights protections and more legal weed.
biden doesnt lie?
he literally said he was gonna cure cancer lmao. hows that for a lofty "perfect world" promise
he said he got arrested for protecting nelson mandela when that didnt even happen
he denies very clear things on his record anyone could look up in 2 seconds like his role in the iraq war vote
and thats just off the top of my head
he lies like all the time...
 

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