Announcement 2025 National Dex Tournament Discussion & Feedback

[sealoo]

Hello everyone, with the 2025 circuit playoffs approaching quickly (about 2 weeks out), I'd like to open up discussion for the format next year. Here was the 2025 schedule to reference.

First, a few guarantees:
-- National Dex Champions League (NDCL) will be taking the place of NDBD, following a regular auction format and occurring around the same time in December (format likely to be same tiers but will be decided closer to, specific start date TBD)
-- CA allocation will be staying the same as 2025 (Circuit, PL, and WC)
-- NDPL will be starting at the same time as usual in mid-August

Points of discussion:
-- National Dex Majors or something adjacent in terms of timing will likely be happening again, but the format is very tedious to host and may be shifted to a Last Chance style Bo3 Single Elimination. How would people feel about this?
-- Were people satisfied with the circuit tournament types (Type A, Type B) and how they were distinguished?
- For reference, seasonals were Type A while LT/Majors/LC were all Type B in 2025.
-- When would people like to see NDWC start? For reference, manager signups went up on March 26th this year.
-- NDCL, in the future come Generation 10 (permitting natdex isnt erased by gamefreak of course), at least for me, is something I want to be our primary tournament for representing our lower tiers while NDPL is for the OU tiers. This means the circuit CA would also be moved to NDCL come this time in gen10. How do people feel about this generally?

If anyone has any additional comments or thoughts separate from the above, feel free to share as well!

Pings for the current top 32 in circuit:

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[Ineros]

3 min bullet points

•I feel majors was a nice idea on paper but it definitely sounds like a pain to manage from a host perspective. Personally think a last chance style tour wouldn’t be a bad idea either, or like maybe Swiss if it wouldn’t be too much strain on hosts? Swiss tours are not fun to handle based on what I heard so maybe not. Suggestion here is good I think just depends on what could be done / what others come up with.

•I don’t have a constructive comment because I’m not an expert but I personally like the differentiation between the type a and type b tours in the circuit so far.

•NDWC starting in early-ish April was fine, I don’t have any true qualms with when it starts but I wouldn’t put up manager signups any later than they were last year. It was the perfect timing to me and even if you wanted to do it somewhat earlier I think no one would have issues with that necessarily.

•Personally, I think that the circuit ca moving to CL would be a good choice as it makes it a more competitive tour. Circuit already has a ribbon prize anyway which is still a very prestigious award. I’m also fine with how pl / cl are differentiated in terms of tiers come Gen 10.


Of course I’m also willing to try other things people suggest as well coming next year.

 

[Corvikafka]

move ca to NDCL cuz i am not qualified in circuit this year.

 

[shuzoku]

^

 

[Amaske]

I personally loved participating in Majors and I like the idea of having tours with different structures than the regular BO3 SE/DE. Though even if it is changed considering the load on the hosts, I don't think it would affect participation, but what would actually affect it at least for me is Circuit Playoffs not having a CA in the future. I personally find CAs to be more compelling than Ribbons. Not saying the Ribbon is bad, it is just how I feel, and I do not see myself committing to a year long circuit as hard as I did this year without a CA (probably not making playoffs though, RIP). Also, a tournament that basically is the finale of an entire year with multiple tours leading up to it not having a CA feels like a waste to me.

As for other points, I like the type distribution of tours and I don't really have any issues with when NDWC happens.

 

[YouanMingxue]

 

[bumboclaat]

-- NDCL, in the future come Generation 10 (permitting natdex isnt erased by gamefreak of course), at least for me, is something I want to be our primary tournament for representing our lower tiers while NDPL is for the OU tiers. This means the circuit CA would also be moved to NDCL come this time in gen10. How do people feel about this generally?

Mentioning it here for the record as it is set in stone, but I’m not a fan of the circuit receiving a CA. NDOU may be our flagship and most popular tier, but it isn’t the only one. We have a lot of tiers and tours under the ND umbrella and there isn’t a way to make everyone happy given the quantity prizes (3 CA + 2 banner + 1 ribbon) we are allocated. That being said, when I look at how they’re distributed, the OU favoritism is a tad high.

This isn’t something I love, but is somewhat justifiable depending on how one views the ultimate purpose of these prizes. On paper, they’re supposed to reward players for putting in the time and effort into ND tours. Instead, after speaking to many members of our community over the last few months I’m left with the impression that the primary purpose of a CA is to incentivize participation from the wider Smogon playerbase.

Notably, the issues with the blind draft format aside, one of the reasons many people didn’t take NDBD seriously was due to the lack of a CA. NDCL seems to be popular due to the format changes alone, but without a CA I’m unsure how it avoids the same issue. In contrast, when looking at the circuit sheet most of the players in the top 32 are players that would sign up for just about every tour featuring NDOU regardless of an associated prize. If someone is just attempting to farm CAs, winning the circuit must be one of the most inefficient, time consuming, and risky ways to do so.

If we are using our limited prize allocation to incentivize players to join ND tours, then giving a CA to the OU circuit seems counterproductive. If we are using it to reward our players for their efforts, then giving it a different tour would reward more players. For example, while small in comparison to NDOU, NDAM is an entire section that is wholly ineligible for anything. This extends to NDOTs as well, albeit to a lesser degree.

Lastly, that we’ve already publicly committed to moving the circuit’s CA elsewhere in 2027 makes me wonder why the subject is finalized for 2026. I’m in favour of this change, but struggle to see why we’d punt it to the future outside of blind adherence to the status quo. I’m strongly in favour of NDCL existing, but the devil is in the details. For example, if the past is anything to go by, a CA tour that wholly excludes OU is not something I see getting a massive amount of buy-in from the general ND playerbase.

-- When would people like to see NDWC start? For reference, manager signups went up on March 26th this year.

I agree with Ineros’s suggestion of moving the start date for NDWC up slightly if that is reasonable to do. The current timing of it is fine, but an extra week or two could create more space for a ‘fun’ team tour with the purpose of bringing the ND community together or some combination of ND formats + our SV counterparts to attempt to build bridges that connect us more with the wider Smogon community. Pentathalon was very well received and there is a big gap in NDs team tour schedule as the only major team tour we have during the summer is NDAMPL off the top of my head. That time feels like something we could utilize more than we do at the moment.

---

Just want to give a big shoutout to our tour hosts! They put in a ton of thankless work behind the scenes that enables us to enjoy these tournaments in the first place. Regardless of whether you help to host our flagship tour in NDPL or a smaller subforum tour the time and effort y'all volunteer is extremely appreciated and is a massive factor in ND's success and growth as a section!

 

[Sami]

I don't really have much to say I'm pretty much happy with everything so far. I think the types of tournaments were distinguished well enough, NDCL representing lower tiers compared to NDPL is pretty nice too since it gives lower tiers more attention compared to when they're put with NDOU; a lot of lower tier discussion usually gets ignored in favour in NDOU especially on Discord I feel, and especially for tiers such as NDUU and NDRU.

As for NDWC, I'm not trying to troll but can we have it after June 16th....
edit: significantly before may 15th also works btw but im talking like a good 6/7 weeks

"why may 15th/june 16th specifically lol"

aka my last exam PLEASE I DONT WANNA PLAY OR MANAGE DURING PRIME EXAM SEASON

 

[unfuuny]

good 6/7 weeks

six sevennnn

 

[hex]

That being said, when I look at how they’re distributed, the OU favoritism is a tad high.

I feel like ND tiers are pretty spread out. We have NDPL and NDBD/NDCL, and NDWC has Monotype + Doubles in it. Trying to create tierism in a subforum is going to cause a lot of issues down the line. OU should be the obvious favorite child. It is the main tier of National Dex. Rewarding circuit with a custom provides a lot more incentive for people to care about the circuit. That being said, I think allocating the custom to another tour is worth the while as a ribbon is already enough incentive tbh. But OU favoritism shouldn't be the main bullet point of why the custom should be moved as it's just gonna cause needless discourse and also isn't actually an issue.

Notably, the issues with the blind draft format aside, one of the reasons many people didn’t take NDBD seriously was due to the lack of a CA.

I had a different post typed out but yes, I agree. NDCL should probably have a custom but NDBD is also an unserious tour because blind draft is not a good auction format. It's just gambling. Auctions have real strategy and planning involved, and even more so for CL tours cuz there's flex slots. I don't think BD tours are good custom tours.

If a custom were to be moved, I would say moving it from WC to another tour is best. HOWEVER in bold big letters before I get called bad words, WC tours are VERY fun, entertaining, and bring many regions and hype together. The only reason I would not suggest a custom for this tour is because it can feel lopsided as is the nature of WC tournaments. However, WCs are always anyone's game even if there are favorites to win the tour and seeing countries/regions come together and bond is always a great thing to see. But if there's some sort of objective here I think WC is technically the tour that can afford to lose the custom the most. Reason being is I assume most people who play in WC tours play it to have fun with the friends they have in the region and hopefully the tour wouldn't see a huge decline in player signup. But I guess people only wanna play for customs nowadays and not for the love of the game kappachungus.

Either option of PL/CL/WC or PL/WC/Circuit I think are good options for customs, but I would try to urge people to not try to think of something getting the custom over another as unfair as theres going to be one tournament here without a custom no matter what.

But yes CL>BD. BD is a meme auction format and it's not fun as a manager and CL is away more interesting/hype, creates more team communication by deciding flex slots (which rewards more active and tryhard teams) and actually rewards managers for being good.