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Metagame 2v2 Doubles Metagame Discussion

With 16 voters excluding abstainers and 7 Do Not Ban votes, the 60% supermajority to ban Flutter Mane cannot be reached. As a result, Flutter Mane will remain legal in 2v2.
Krytocon Ban
Morgan Do Not Ban
Despacito87 Do Not Ban
Phantomistix Do Not Ban
yuki Do Not Ban
Opchurtle100 Ban
hayedenn Ban
Potatochan Do Not Ban
Fragments Do Not Ban
DripLegend Ban
Tom1535 Do Not Ban
bored_glitch Do Not Ban
Kaif Do Not Ban
Hugo Do Not Ban
tyo Abstain
Chris32156 Did Not Vote Yet
Vrji Did Not Vote Yet
 
When I try to use a team with tornadus-therian or validating the team you see in the screen:

Your team was rejected for the following reasons:

- Tornadus-Therian is banned.

EDIT: Thank you for unban the bird, I use today (29/8/2023) without problems.
On the other hand...this tier needs a new viability ranking.
 
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Hyper Offense Physical team involving Chien-Pao that has had good success

Infernape @ Punching Glove
Ability: Iron Fist
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Fire Punch
- Mach Punch
- Drain Punch
- Fake Out
Fake Out is always good, plus drain, mach, and fire punch are great offensive options that are boosted by Iron Fist and Punching Glove.

Chien-Pao @ Life Orb
Ability: Sword of Ruin
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Ice Spinner
- Crunch
- Sucker Punch
- Sacred Sword
The entire team is physical and Chien-Pao buffs that physical damage with Sword of Ruin. Standard moves for maximum damage.

Grimmsnarl (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Prankster
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Thunder Wave
- Spirit Break
- Fake Out
- Lash Out
If you need support against a stall opponent, Grimmy's your guy. Fake Out to prevent movement for a turn, Spirit Break and Lash Out for damage, and T-Wave to shut down speedy opponents.

Landorus-Therian @ Life Orb
Ability: Intimidate
Tera Type: Flying
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Brick Break
- Stomping Tantrum
- Rock Slide
- U-turn
It's a Landorous T. I don't need to elaborate.
 
Suggested bans:

:deoxys-attack: On paper it seems fine with espeed users like entei and dnite fake out incin grassy glide rilla etc but with indeedee this thing is super broken. This has a million coverage moves to beat whatever it wants, and with follow me support this thing is unstoppable. Way too fast and strong, it even has espeed to deal with faster things.

:deoxys: Same vein as deo a except you have bulk to live espeeds, rilla grassy glide, double fake out or stuff like fake out+feint from sneasler

:deoxys-defense: Really good setup sweeper and support mon. It's best answers are Urshifu and Chi yu... and they're both banned. This means that you have to double target to ever kill this thing (252 Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Chien-Pao Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Deoxys-Defense: 254-300 (83.5 - 98.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO lol) and if you don't, it'll get a trick room to enable Ursaluna Torkoal or whatever trick room sweeper you need, can enable weather teams or do whatever it wants really.

:terapagos-terastal: Just a better dnite with amazing coverage moves, a good spread move and a broken ability. I've been running power herb meteor beam for all of the fire types, but you can run cm covert cloak, specs, or even run a weather move like raindance/sunny day. It just fits onto every team and without fighting types (ihands shifus) this is too much.

Suggested unbans:

:iron hands: This would be a very healthy addition to the meta, we need a good fake out user and the meta just checks this naturally. We got psyspam looking really good, fire types that hinder ihands (gouging fire swipes, incin intimidate, sacred fire entei, etc) and lots of new special attackers that would probably force ihands to always run av instead of the sd set that got ihands banned. We really need fake out mons and a good fighting type.

:urshifu: (water) We got a lot of new checks/counters like rilla, raging bolt, all of the ogerpons, psychics etc. In return we get a really good water to check all of the fire ground dark types that are omnipresent in the tier. I do not see a world where this is broken.

Controversial opinions

:chi yu: meh doesn't seem that good with all of the faster mons that exist now and with other fire types having competition with this, we need darks for psyspam and theres lots of new checks with water rock ground fighting etc. Is it too good by enabling its teammates like flutter to become really good? maybe but we need a good answer to indeedee so unban pls

:urshifu: This is fine, we have hoopa u which is probably better than this tbh, but this is a good dark and good fighting type with decent priority with sucker punch. May be a bit too good but I think it contributes more than it takes away.

:tornadus: Maybe it's just me but I don't really see what this enables to be really good. Like there's lots of rock electric and ice types that just counter this thing casually, and with the meta going into a more bulky phase this doesnt seem that broken. Then again it got a pretty nice coverage move in bleakwind storm so idk

maybe also :ogerpon-cornerstone: or :deoxys-speed: but idk
 
fake tom numbers said:
Suggested bans:

:deoxys-attack: On paper it seems fine with espeed users like entei and dnite fake out incin grassy glide rilla etc but with indeedee this thing is super broken. This has a million coverage moves to beat whatever it wants, and with follow me support this thing is unstoppable. Way too fast and strong, it even has espeed to deal with faster things.

:deoxys: Same vein as deo a except you have bulk to live espeeds, rilla grassy glide, double fake out or stuff like fake out+feint from sneasler

:deoxys-defense: Really good setup sweeper and support mon. It's best answers are Urshifu and Chi yu... and they're both banned. This means that you have to double target to ever kill this thing (252 Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Chien-Pao Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Deoxys-Defense: 254-300 (83.5 - 98.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO lol) and if you don't, it'll get a trick room to enable Ursaluna Torkoal or whatever trick room sweeper you need, can enable weather teams or do whatever it wants really.

:terapagos-terastal: Just a better dnite with amazing coverage moves, a good spread move and a broken ability. I've been running power herb meteor beam for all of the fire types, but you can run cm covert cloak, specs, or even run a weather move like raindance/sunny day. It just fits onto every team and without fighting types (ihands shifus) this is too much.

Suggested unbans:

:iron hands: This would be a very healthy addition to the meta, we need a good fake out user and the meta just checks this naturally. We got psyspam looking really good, fire types that hinder ihands (gouging fire swipes, incin intimidate, sacred fire entei, etc) and lots of new special attackers that would probably force ihands to always run av instead of the sd set that got ihands banned. We really need fake out mons and a good fighting type.

:urshifu: (water) We got a lot of new checks/counters like rilla, raging bolt, all of the ogerpons, psychics etc. In return we get a really good water to check all of the fire ground dark types that are omnipresent in the tier. I do not see a world where this is broken.

Controversial opinions

:chi yu: meh doesn't seem that good with all of the faster mons that exist now and with other fire types having competition with this, we need darks for psyspam and theres lots of new checks with water rock ground fighting etc. Is it too good by enabling its teammates like flutter to become really good? maybe but we need a good answer to indeedee so unban pls

:urshifu: This is fine, we have hoopa u which is probably better than this tbh, but this is a good dark and good fighting type with decent priority with sucker punch. May be a bit too good but I think it contributes more than it takes away.

:tornadus: Maybe it's just me but I don't really see what this enables to be really good. Like there's lots of rock electric and ice types that just counter this thing casually, and with the meta going into a more bulky phase this doesnt seem that broken. Then again it got a pretty nice coverage move in bleakwind storm so idk

maybe also :ogerpon-cornerstone: or :deoxys-speed: but idk
Click to expand...
Click to collapse...
(these are just my opinions, opinions of other council members may differ)

Bans

:deoxys-attack: hard agree, don't think much needs to be said here, it's too much for the meta and needs to go

:deoxys: lower power level, haven't really seen much of this because of deo-a but will probably have to go as well

:deoxys-defense: i feel like this isnt amazing, its in the same vein as cress with insane bulk, pure psychic typing and good support moves. deo can also stall though. we'll have to see about this

:terapagos-terastal: haven't seen enough of this to comment much but will keep an eye on it

Unbans

:Iron hands: we got incin now as a good fake out mon but hands still has better offensive pressure and raw bulk. I'm not too sure how to feel about this but I'd err on the side of caution probably. Might get looked at later

:Urshifu-Rapid-Strike: (water) power level is a lot higher this gen, shifus were banned because of the havoc they wreaked last gen but I think at least water can come off now

Controversial opinions

:Chi-yu: chi is not just a strong fire type, its also a really strong enabler that helps break special teams, it can also still tech pretty much all of its checks, so i dont think this comes off

:Urshifu: definitely better than water shifu but I want to eventually unban this as well depending on how the meta is after the next slate

:Tornadus: we already have whims so this thing should 100% be free, i don't think prio tailwind is that valuable in this gen with powercreep being how it is

:Ogerpon-Cornerstone: This mon is still really really good but I think it's healthier now than before the dlc, it's still an S tier mon but I would personally not vote ban on this at this point

:Deoxys-Speed: not good, it has meh bulk and meh offensive stats, even specs feels extremely weak. not worth banning

by the way, council are voting on a slate right now and we'll get back to you about results (and potential suspects)
 
After a council slate, :Deoxys-Attack: Deoxys-Attack has been banned and :Tornadus: Tornadus has been unbanned. Tagging Kris for implementation.
Additionally, :Urshifu-Rapid-Strike: Urshifu-Rapid-Strike has been voted for a suspect, and we plan to do this via suspect tours after open concludes, as well as have a second follow-up slate. (Just a reminder, these changes are NOT in effect for round 2 of open, so please challenge with deo-a unbanned and torn banned for this week)
Also vr has been updated, expect a proper ranked vr soon:tm:
 
Following up on my post here, some stuff has been going on behind the scenes. In terms of leadership positions, Morgan has stepped down from co-TL and I appointed yuki in her place. Also shuffling council around with Blanched and Kaif joining and Vrji and Morgan leaving. We are also voting on Urshifu-Rapid-Strike as promised (Kry edit: It got voted to stay out pretty fast), and VR and resources will hopefully get updated by the time UMPL starts. We will also be running 2v2 Classic during UMPL (rather than trying to run 2 PLs at the same time) then 2v2PL after that, probably near the start of 2025.
 
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Hi, I'm here to discuss a potential :Iron Hands: Iron Hands resuspect. There was some discussion in council chat after our Urshifu-Rapid vote and it was mostly agreed upon that after new mons being released and other meta changes this mon wouldn't be so broken anymore. My main proposal is to do the following:
1. Unban :Iron Hands:Iron Hands for the duration of UMPL.
2. Have a qualified vote after UMPL ends.
What counts as qualified for the vote will probably be decided closer to the time and/or after some discussion here, but I envision it looking something like this: Council get a vote, and anyone who won at least 1 game of 2v2 in UMPL also gets a vote. There is the potential for suspect tours alongside this but seeing how the Flutter Mane tours went it's unlikely. Please respond to this message or dm me on discord (krytocon) if you have any objections or suggestions.
 
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Despacito87 said:
I vote for option 2. I think that iron hands is a fair pokemon, but unbanning it with no suspect right before ompl seems very rash.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse...
these aren't options, they're part of the same proposal. Iron hands is unbanned from the start to the end of umpl and then a suspect is held among qualified players to decide if it should remain in the tier. hands more than deserves another chance and it's standard tiering procedure to retest banned mons after dlcs as they alter the metagame significantly. the tier now has plenty of powerful mons to threaten it that didn't exist pre-home (hoopa, necrozma, crown, landos) and tons of support mons to mitigate its ability to 2v1. hands also provides the valuable ability to check new threats like kyub, archaludon, incin, and ogerpon, and is overall easily a positive to the tier, ignoring the fact that it should have been freed anyway a while ago.
 
Hello Everyone, I'm back on council after my LoA.
With the recent announcement of 2v2PL4, I wanted to say that after our very big tournament drought in 2024, we have reached a tentative schedule for our 2025 tournaments.

We will have 4 major tournaments throughout 2025, 2 team tours and 2 individuals. Out of our individuals, one will be old gens focused and the other will be entirely current gen.

Our Current Plan for 2025 is as follows:

January -> Mid/Late March -- 2v2 Premier League 4 (Team tour)

Late March/Early April -- 2v2 Classic (Old Gens Individual)

June/July -- 2v2 Pool League 3 (Team tour)

August/September -- Generation 9 Individual Tour*

* NOTE: We are currently undecided on what form this Individual Tour will take. It will likely either be a Ladder Tour or a standard double elimination.

Thank You for your patience in 2024, and please look forward to our packed tournament schedule in 2025.
 
VR has been updated, also Fragments has left council, thank you for your time.
:Indeedee-F: A+ -> S
:Ogerpon-Wellspring: A+ -> S-
:Gouging Fire: A -> A+
:Iron Bundle: A -> A+
:Iron Crown: B+ -> A
:Volcanion: A- -> A
:Corviknight: UR -> A-
:Hoopa-Unbound: B+ -> A-
:Iron Treads: UR -> A-
:Regidrago: B+ -> A-
:Walking Wake: B+ -> A-
:Arcanine: B -> B+
:Diancie: B- -> B+
:Mew: B- -> B
:Necrozma: B- -> B
:Porygon2: B- -> B
:Darkrai: C+ -> B-
:Excadrill: UR -> B-
:Roaring Moon: C -> B-
:Pelipper: C -> C+
:Ting-Lu: C -> C+
:Maushold: UR -> C-
:Scizor: D -> C-
:Farigiraf: UR -> D
:Indeedee: UR -> D
:Sableye: UR -> D
:Tauros-Paldea-Blaze: UR -> D
:Ogerpon-Cornerstone: S -> A+
:Incineroar: S- -> A-
:Archaludon: A+ -> A
:Annihilape: A -> B+
:Cresselia: A -> A-
:Landorus-Therian: A -> A-
:Rillaboom: A -> A-
:Sneasler: A- -> B+
:Torkoal: B+ -> B
:Deoxys: B -> B-
:Kingambit: B -> B-
:Zapdos-Galar: B -> B-
:Arcanine-Hisui: B- -> C+
:Deoxys-Defense: B- -> C+
:Volcarona: B- -> C+
:Baxcalibur: C+ -> C
:Entei: C+ -> C
:Kommo-o: C+ -> C-
:Manaphy: C+ -> C
:Mimikyu: C+ -> C
:Ninetales-Alola: C+ -> C-
:Iron Moth: C -> C-
:Kingdra: C -> C-
:Enamorus: C- -> D
:Azumarill: D -> UR
:Dondozo: D -> UR
 
Sprig (Meowscarada) said:
:pelipper: C -> A
Necessary for Arch rain teams.
:Amoonguss: B- -> A
Effect spore, Rage powder, Sunny day, The possibilities are endless
Click to expand...
Click to collapse...
(Everything below is my opinion not the opinion of council as a whole)
Generally, with this level of powercreep thanks to SV, Pelipper feels really bad to use, even on rain. Generally your other mon will need to 1v2, I much prefer running Arch with Power Herb to pretty much skip the rain requirement (and also allows the use of Meteor Beam), or manual rain from something like Tornadus which has much better tools even without Drizzle.

For Amoonguss, generally I wouldn't recommend Effect Spore on most sets. Your main utility over other redirectors is Spore and having that blocked by a random Paralysis from being attacked is often an instant loss. Rage powder is nice though (and probably the only reason this mon is ranked at all to be frank) but it's typing doesn't favour it against a lot of top tiers, for Sunny Day support I would much rather have Torkoal or again even manual sun from Tornadus since if you're using Sunny Day you have a free turn for both opponents to double the Amoonguss or otherwise set up.
 
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