Lower Tiers DPP NU General Discussion

Honko

Honko

he of many honks
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DPP NU is a fun, easily learned tier with a lot of diversity, both in terms of viable Pokemon and viable playstyles. Offense and balance have historically been the most common playstyles (not counting Sand/Hail, which are now banned), but stall is also (probably) viable, as are some archetypes that struggle in higher tiers, such as Trick Room and Sunny Day teams.

There's a DPP NU ladder up on PS for RoA spotlight this month, so go play some games and feel free to post your replays, sets, teams, and observations here.

Resources:
  • Tier List (note that Hippopotas and Snover are banned, but Sand Veil and Snow Cloak are legal)
  • Viability Rankings
  • Usage Stats (from NUPL and PUPL)
  • Jynx @ Focus Sash
    Ability: Oblivious
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
    Timid Nature
    - Fake Out
    - Lovely Kiss
    - Psychic
    - Ice Beam

    Haunter (F) @ Life Orb
    Ability: Levitate
    EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
    Timid Nature
    - Substitute
    - Shadow Ball
    - Hidden Power [Ground]
    - Sludge Bomb

    Manectric (F) @ Choice Scarf
    Ability: Lightning Rod
    EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
    Timid Nature
    - Flamethrower
    - Thunderbolt
    - Hidden Power [Grass]
    - Switcheroo

    Regirock @ Leftovers
    Ability: Clear Body
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
    Careful Nature
    - Explosion
    - Rock Slide
    - Stealth Rock
    - Thunder Wave

    Tauros @ Choice Band
    Ability: Intimidate
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
    Jolly Nature
    - Double-Edge
    - Earthquake
    - Stone Edge
    - Zen Headbutt

    Slowking @ Leftovers
    Ability: Own Tempo
    EVs: 252 HP / 144 Def / 112 SpD
    Calm Nature
    - Surf
    - Psychic
    - Slack Off
    - Thunder Wave
    Jynx @ Focus Sash
    Ability: Oblivious
    EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Timid Nature
    - Lovely Kiss
    - Ice Beam
    - Grass Knot
    - Nasty Plot

    Regirock @ Leftovers
    Ability: Clear Body
    EVs: 204 HP / 148 Atk / 156 SpD
    Adamant Nature
    - Rock Slide
    - Stealth Rock
    - Earthquake
    - Explosion

    Haunter @ Life Orb
    Ability: Levitate
    EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
    Timid Nature
    - Sludge Bomb
    - Shadow Ball
    - Substitute
    - Hidden Power [Ground]

    Manectric @ Choice Scarf
    Ability: Static
    EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Timid Nature
    - Thunderbolt
    - Overheat
    - Hidden Power [Grass]
    - Switcheroo

    Hitmonchan @ Leftovers
    Ability: Iron Fist
    EVs: 160 HP / 252 Atk / 96 Spe
    Adamant Nature
    - Bulk Up
    - Drain Punch
    - Ice Punch
    - Mach Punch

    Skuntank @ Leftovers
    Ability: Aftermath
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Adamant Nature
    - Taunt
    - Pursuit
    - Explosion
    - Sucker Punch
    Piloswine (M) @ Life Orb
    Ability: Oblivious
    EVs: 200 HP / 252 Atk / 56 Spe
    Adamant Nature
    - Earthquake
    - Avalanche
    - Ice Shard
    - Stealth Rock

    Magneton @ Leftovers
    Ability: Magnet Pull
    EVs: 64 HP / 228 SpA / 216 Spe
    Modest Nature
    - Substitute
    - Flash Cannon
    - Thunderbolt
    - Hidden Power [Ground]

    Politoed (M) @ Leftovers
    Ability: Water Absorb
    EVs: 188 HP / 68 Def / 252 SpD
    Calm Nature
    - Surf
    - Encore
    - Toxic
    - Protect

    Haunter (M) @ Life Orb
    Ability: Levitate
    EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Timid Nature
    - Shadow Ball
    - Hidden Power [Ground]
    - Substitute
    - Sludge Bomb

    Magmortar (M) @ Choice Scarf
    Ability: Flame Body
    EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Hasty Nature
    - Thunderbolt
    - Fire Blast
    - Focus Blast
    - Earthquake

    Jynx @ Leftovers
    Ability: Oblivious
    EVs: 8 HP / 248 SpA / 252 Spe
    Timid Nature
    - Lovely Kiss
    - Ice Beam
    - Substitute
    - Nasty Plot
    Medicham @ Life Orb
    Ability: Pure Power
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Jolly Nature
    - Fake Out
    - High Jump Kick
    - Zen Headbutt
    - Thunder Punch

    Gligar @ Leftovers
    Ability: Hyper Cutter
    EVs: 252 HP / 240 Def / 16 Spe
    Impish Nature
    - Stealth Rock
    - Earthquake
    - Taunt
    - Roost

    Hypno @ Leftovers
    Ability: Insomnia
    EVs: 252 HP / 120 Def / 136 SpD
    Calm Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Wish
    - Protect
    - Seismic Toss
    - Toxic

    Magneton @ Leftovers
    Ability: Magnet Pull
    EVs: 80 HP / 252 SpA / 176 Spe
    Modest Nature
    IVs: 2 Atk / 30 SpA
    - Substitute
    - Thunderbolt
    - Flash Cannon
    - Hidden Power [Grass]

    Tauros @ Choice Band
    Ability: Intimidate
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Jolly Nature
    - Double-Edge
    - Earthquake
    - Pursuit
    - Return

    Hitmonchan @ Choice Scarf
    Ability: Iron Fist
    EVs: 40 HP / 252 Atk / 216 Spe
    Adamant Nature
    - Close Combat
    - Thunder Punch
    - Ice Punch
    - Earthquake
    Machoke (F) @ Lum Berry
    Ability: No Guard
    EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
    Adamant Nature
    - Dynamic Punch
    - Payback
    - Ice Punch
    - Bullet Punch

    Sandslash (M) @ Leftovers
    Ability: Sand Veil
    EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 Spe
    Adamant Nature
    - Earthquake
    - Shadow Claw
    - Stealth Rock
    - Rapid Spin

    Charizard (M) @ Life Orb
    Ability: Blaze
    EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Timid Nature
    - Fire Blast
    - Air Slash
    - Hidden Power [Grass]
    - Roost

    Manectric (M) @ Choice Scarf
    Ability: Static
    EVs: 40 HP / 252 SpA / 216 Spe
    Timid Nature
    - Thunderbolt
    - Flamethrower
    - Hidden Power [Grass]
    - Switcheroo

    Whiscash (M) @ Leftovers
    Ability: Anticipation
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
    Adamant Nature
    - Earthquake
    - Waterfall
    - Dragon Dance
    - Stone Edge

    Jumpluff (M) @ Life Orb
    Ability: Chlorophyll
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
    Jolly Nature
    - Seed Bomb
    - Aerial Ace
    - Sleep Powder
    - Swords Dance
    Solrock @ Lum Berry
    Ability: Levitate
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
    Brave Nature
    IVs: 0 Spe
    - Stealth Rock
    - Explosion
    - Trick Room
    - Stone Edge

    Marowak @ Thick Club
    Ability: Rock Head
    EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 Def
    Brave Nature
    IVs: 0 Spe
    - Double-Edge
    - Earthquake
    - Swords Dance
    - Rock Slide

    Camerupt @ Life Orb
    Ability: Solid Rock
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 SpA
    Quiet Nature
    IVs: 30 Atk / 30 SpA / 1 Spe
    - Hidden Power [Grass]
    - Earthquake
    - Explosion
    - Fire Blast

    Medicham @ Life Orb
    Ability: Pure Power
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
    Adamant Nature
    - Fake Out
    - Bullet Punch
    - High Jump Kick
    - Thunder Punch

    Tauros @ Choice Band
    Ability: Intimidate
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
    Jolly Nature
    - Return
    - Earthquake
    - Pursuit
    - Facade

    Gardevoir @ Choice Scarf
    Ability: Trace
    EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
    Timid Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Psychic
    - Thunderbolt
    - Focus Blast
    - Trick
    Charizard (F) @ Choice Specs
    Ability: Blaze
    EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
    Timid Nature
    - Fire Blast
    - Hidden Power [Grass]
    - Focus Blast
    - Air Slash

    Jumpluff (F) @ Life Orb
    Ability: Chlorophyll
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Jolly Nature
    - Swords Dance
    - Seed Bomb
    - Aerial Ace
    - Sleep Powder

    Sandslash (F) @ Leftovers
    Ability: Sand Veil
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
    Impish Nature
    - Earthquake
    - Rapid Spin
    - Stealth Rock
    - Night Slash

    Grumpig (F) @ Leftovers
    Ability: Thick Fat
    EVs: 252 HP / 80 Def / 176 SpD
    Calm Nature
    - Heal Bell
    - Toxic
    - Psychic
    - Focus Blast

    Poliwrath (F) @ Leftovers
    Ability: Water Absorb
    EVs: 120 HP / 252 Atk / 136 Spe
    Adamant Nature
    - Substitute
    - Encore
    - Waterfall
    - Focus Punch

    Tauros @ Choice Band
    Ability: Intimidate
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Jolly Nature
    - Pursuit
    - Double-Edge
    - Rock Slide
    - Earthquake
    Glalie @ Focus Sash
    Ability: Inner Focus
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
    Jolly Nature
    - Spikes
    - Taunt
    - Explosion
    - Ice Shard

    Haunter @ Life Orb
    EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
    Timid Nature
    - Substitute
    - Shadow Ball
    - Sludge Bomb
    - Hidden Power [Ground]

    Tauros @ Choice Band
    Ability: Intimidate
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
    Jolly Nature
    - Double-Edge
    - Earthquake
    - Stone Edge
    - Payback

    Rhydon @ Leftovers
    Ability: Lightning Rod
    EVs: 244 HP / 16 Atk / 248 SpD
    Adamant Nature
    - Earthquake
    - Stone Edge
    - Megahorn
    - Stealth Rock

    Manectric @ Choice Scarf
    Ability: Static
    EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Timid Nature
    - Thunderbolt
    - Overheat
    - Hidden Power [Grass]
    - Switcheroo

    Drifblim @ Chesto Berry
    Ability: Unburden
    EVs: 252 Def / 108 SpA / 148 Spe
    Modest Nature
    - Calm Mind
    - Rest
    - Shadow Ball
    - Hidden Power [Fighting]
    Solrock @ Lum Berry
    Ability: Levitate
    EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
    Brave Nature
    IVs: 0 Spe
    - Stealth Rock
    - Trick Room
    - Stone Edge
    - Explosion

    Slowking @ Leftovers
    Ability: Own Tempo
    EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 SpD
    Quiet Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
    - Trick Room
    - Surf
    - Psychic
    - Nasty Plot

    Porygon2 @ Life Orb
    Ability: Download
    EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 SpD
    Quiet Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
    - Trick Room
    - Tri Attack
    - Ice Beam
    - Thunderbolt

    Marowak @ Thick Club
    Ability: Rock Head
    EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
    Brave Nature
    IVs: 0 Spe
    - Substitute
    - Earthquake
    - Stone Edge
    - Double-Edge

    Crawdaunt @ Life Orb
    Ability: Hyper Cutter
    EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
    Brave Nature
    IVs: 0 Spe
    - Waterfall
    - Crunch
    - Superpower
    - X-Scissor

    Regice @ Life Orb
    Ability: Clear Body
    EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 SpA
    Quiet Nature
    IVs: 30 Def / 30 SpA / 3 Spe
    - Ice Beam
    - Thunderbolt
    - Hidden Power [Grass]
    - Explosion
    Persian @ Heat Rock
    Ability: Technician
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Jolly Nature
    - Fake Out
    - Sunny Day
    - Taunt
    - U-turn

    Hypno @ Heat Rock
    Ability: Insomnia
    EVs: 252 HP / 160 Def / 96 SpD
    Calm Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Sunny Day
    - Thunder Wave
    - Psychic
    - Baton Pass

    Regirock @ Heat Rock
    Ability: Clear Body
    EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 Spe
    Adamant Nature
    - Sunny Day
    - Stealth Rock
    - Stone Edge
    - Explosion

    Victreebel @ Life Orb
    Ability: Chlorophyll
    EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Timid Nature
    IVs: 3 Atk / 30 Def / 30 SpD / 30 Spe
    - Sleep Powder
    - Solar Beam
    - Hidden Power [Rock]
    - Weather Ball

    Shiftry @ Life Orb
    Ability: Chlorophyll
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Adamant Nature
    - Swords Dance
    - Seed Bomb
    - Sucker Punch
    - Explosion

    Typhlosion @ Choice Scarf
    Ability: Blaze
    EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Timid Nature
    IVs: 2 Atk / 30 SpA
    - Eruption
    - Flamethrower
    - Focus Blast
    - Hidden Power [Grass]
    Electrode @ Focus Sash
    Ability: Static
    EVs: 72 Atk / 252 SpA / 184 Spe
    Lonely Nature
    - Taunt
    - Rain Dance
    - Explosion
    - Hidden Power [Water]

    Gorebyss @ Life Orb
    Ability: Swift Swim
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
    Timid Nature
    - Hydro Pump
    - Hidden Power [Grass]
    - Ice Beam
    - Shadow Ball

    Relicanth @ Life Orb
    Ability: Swift Swim
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
    Adamant Nature
    - Stone Edge
    - Earthquake
    - Return
    - Waterfall

    Skuntank @ Black Glasses
    Ability: Aftermath
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
    Jolly Nature
    - Rain Dance
    - Explosion
    - Sucker Punch
    - Poison Jab

    Medicham @ Choice Scarf
    Ability: Pure Power
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
    Jolly Nature
    - High Jump Kick
    - Psycho Cut
    - Ice Punch
    - Thunder Punch

    Lickilicky @ Damp Rock
    Ability: Own Tempo
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
    Adamant Nature
    - Rain Dance
    - Explosion
    - Earthquake
    - Power Whip
    Oglemi's RMT Team Dump
  • To start this off, here are a few tournament replays of mine showing some close matches between relatively standard balanced offense teams.
 
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No but really the best part about DPP NU is that there's soooooooo much room for creativity still. So much left to explore beyond the cookie cutter Zard/Skunk teams or Licki stall or whatever the kids are using these days. But I'd also peg that as the worst part in a way because "random" stuff is still out there to beebop you in a match that I've never seen used before. NP Persian....

Still one of the best tiers even after the hail/sand ban tho. I miss my sand hax :(
 
If anyone is down to battle you can find me in the Old Gens room at random times of the day. Ladder is generally dead when I'm online thus me asking here. I'll probably use samples until I get the hang of it and figure out how the meta works.

Probably the first rotational I'm really interested in. Are there any good ghost types in this tier?
 
Haunter is really good. It's obviously frail and can't switch in on much, but it in turn has very few things that can switch in on it. Sub / Shadow Ball / Sludge Bomb / HP Ground @ Life Orb is the standard, but you can play around with moves like Destiny Bond, Pain Split, HP Fighting, or WoW as well. Sub is pretty much mandatory to prevent you from being trapped by Skuntank and Tauros.

Drifblim is also good and very unpredictable. It can run a ton of different sets, with some of the more common ones I can think of being ChestoRest Unburden CM, SubCM, Scarf, Suicide Lead, and BP. I personally think it's one of the most fun mons to use in the tier.

Dusclops is pretty much your only option for a defensive spinblocker. It's very good at that role, but it's so passive that it's hard to fit on anything but the most defensive teams.
 
It looks like Lickilicky has a plenty of options too. How many sets are viable? There are the SpDef Wish, the Swords Dance, the Mixed, the Band, the Curse... I wonder if a Mixed SubPuncher (in the same vein of TyraBOAH in DPP OU) and a Belly Drum will be viable, even if he's still very slow. Anyway, he's just like Drifblim, very fun to use in my opinion.

Sun teams are very strong in this Meta, Shiftry and Victeebrel are fearsome Sweepers under Sunny Day.
 
BellyZard is one of the most threatening pokemon in the tier if properly supported. Here's a fun team that goes all in on the support.

Kadabra @ Focus Sash
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Def
- Taunt
- Counter
- Psychic
- Thunder Wave

Charizard @ Salac Berry
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 92 HP / 220 Atk / 196 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Belly Drum
- Substitute
- Fire Punch
- Earthquake

Jumpluff @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Chlorophyll
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Sleep Powder
- Memento
- Encore
- Reflect

Medicham @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Pure Power
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- High Jump Kick
- Psycho Cut
- Thunder Punch
- Trick

Skuntank @ Black Glasses
Ability: Aftermath
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Crunch
- Pursuit
- Sucker Punch
- Explosion

Solrock @ Focus Sash
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Light Screen
- Reflect
- Explosion
 
Even though the DPP NU ladder probably isn't up anymore, I'm going to post this here and ask, since this meta intrigues me: how good is, say, SpecsZard and Life Orb Medicham, at pressuring Regirock? Such as hitting it on the switch with a Specs Focus Blast with Zard/is Medicham good at threatening/taking down Regirock at all?

I'm trying to test out an offensive team, and due to the seeming lack of powerful/fast offensive Water types here (lack of immediate power/speed/coverage on Grass types means Grass don't seem to work on hyper offense period, I tried for so long on ADV NU believe me), Medicham and SpecsZard may be my "best" option at pressuring Regirock quickly, but Protect shenanigans and all that

Basically I'm looking for something that fills the role of something reasonably fast and powerful that can pressure Regirock, is at least ok against other stuff, and doesn't slow my team down too much. I don't know this meta real well.
 
I would not recommend specs on Zard. Life Orb is so much more generally threatening. Regirock already can't switch in on Fire Blast then survive a Focus Blast, if using Life Orb (not that I even necessarily recommend focus blast on zard). LO Focus Blast does over 70%. LO Medicham does over 80% to Regirock with High Jump Kick. I would not be particularly concerned with Protect on Regirock. It is not all that common.

If you want a powerful water type, CB Floatzel is a good option, though Regirock is so physically tanky that it can avoid the 2HKO from Waterfall. Poliwrath pretty thoroughly beats Regirock with its Sub Bulk Up set, among others.

SunnyBeam Vileplume is probably your best bet for a sweeping Grass type, though Shiftry is another totally ok offensive option. Shiftry's LO Leaf Storm will demolish Regirock, with no need for set up.
 
On offensive teams, I like using physical attackers like Tauros and Pinsir to wear Regirock down. If the opponent has a Regirock, it's pretty much guaranteed to be their best switch-in to non-Fighting physical attackers, but you can do some significant damage with EQ or Close Combat before going down, and that's enough to prevent Regirock from being able to wall your Fire-types later. And if they don't have a Regirock, your Tauros is gonna have a good time.

Bughouse already mentioned Poliwrath but I'll second it since it really turns Regirock into a liability. I dread facing any Sub Poliwrath set when I have a Regirock.

A cool mon I used a bit on the rotational ladder is CB Crawdaunt. Easily 2HKOes Regirock and almost everything else in the tier (Quagsire and defensive Poliwrath are the only exceptions I think). I also tried DD, but it's hard to set up and super easy to revenge kill, so I had more success just firing off CB Crunches and Waterfalls. Strong, reliable Dark STAB is amazing in this tier.
 
You can always slap a Scarf Gardevoir on your team if you need an offensive counter to rain.
 
Time to add a point of discussion: Medicham and Magmortar both have a Life Orb wallbreaker set and a Choice Scarf set, both hover around the ~80ish mark in speed, and tend to have similar roles. Let's talk about the differences/similarities/let's compare and contrast the two. Which one do you think is more effective? Which one do you like more? What does one mon do better than the other/what are their differences in coverage? Etc etc
 
In general, I think Magmortar's a little better against more offensive teams, and Medicham's better against more defensive/slower balance teams. LO Medicham is basically impossible to switch into, barring a couple of very passive Fighting-resistant walls. Its STABs are great against most of the defensive Pokemon in the tier, and it doesn't even need prediction to beat Slowking since STAB move + ThunderPunch usually 2HKOes. LO Magmortar is also a fantastic wallbreaker, but it's not quite as hard to switch in on since there are more defensive Pokemon that resist its STAB, and it's forced to rely on Focus Blast's accuracy to beat Pokemon like Regirock and Lickilicky. It also needs to hit Slowking with Thunderbolt on the switch to beat it. On the other hand, I find Magmortar more useful against offensive teams because it has nice special bulk that allows it to take a hit from things like Charizard or Manectric or Haunter and OHKO them back, which Medicham can't do.

As for Scarf, I think they're extremely similar in that they have excellent power and coverage and good enough speed. For me it comes down to the SR weakness. I usually prefer Magmortar on teams with a spinner, and Medicham on teams without.
 
Well, first off I don't think comparing Magmortar and Medicham is a good comparison anyway. But anyway, Honko is mostly right. Medicham is a very splashable scarfer due to its rocks weakness, but it offers next to nothing to a team defensively. Probably the most relevant thing is a rock and fighting resist, so it can switch in on Hitmonchan or Regirock... sort of. Magmortar's far more useful defensively, though somewhat compromised by the SR weakness.

In any case, neither mon's best set is Scarf (and this is coming from someone who uses scarf Medicham a lot). They have outstanding coverage and benefit far more (most of the time) from being able to change moves than being able to fix their middling speed tier.
 
I know it ended since a while now, but replays from NUPl have been interesting so far:

- Bulk Up Hitmonchan have been used with great success, even though everyone still carried Rapid Spin on it, because having both its utility and sweeping capabilities is appealing I guess.

- I think I've seen Hypno only once, which surprised me at first, but then I realised that it wasn't as good as a mixed Wall as I thought, and that Gardevoir, while having less natural bulk, can still keep in check the same things with an appropriate spread and being less passive thanks to her Spa Stat and access to WoW (a godsend against non-Lum Skuntank), and can bring Heal Bell support.

- SubPunch Poliwrath saw a decent amount of usage, is the ability to set up on Regirock really that good ? I think it's pretty easy to stop with Mon such as Slowking , Hypno, Gardevoir (thanks to Trace) and Vileplume, even though you can clear many these annoyances with Skuntank, I don't see why I would use him over Medicham or Hitmonchan unless I really need a check to Floatzel, Sharpedo, Crawdaunt and Rain.

- Sharpedo seems to be used more than Floatzel. In your opinion, which one is the best Band, Specs, Mixed and Anti-Lead ? Maybe I shouldn't compare them in first place, but they look quite similar.

- Dusclops was the anti-spinner of choice in Stall teams, but I saw a couple of Misdreavus and Sableye too. Therefore, I think claiming that Dusclops is the only defensively oriented Ghost-type in the tier is wrong. Misdreavus might be the best anti-spinner thanks to her Speed so her fast Wow and immunity to Sandslash's EQ. Sableye isn't a worst Dusclops at all, his secondary typing helps a lot against Medi and Skunk, and access to instant and reliable recovery is awesome.

- Glad to see that people recognized Cradily and Grumpig effectiveness, there are still many underrated threat like Golem, Regice and Ninetales who have been very effective the few times they were used.
 
Gardevoir can't check all the same things as Hypno. Most importantly, it can't switch in on Medicham, which is Hypno's big selling point imo as an all-around wall. But as you implied, Skuntank basically turns Hypno into a liability whereas Gardevoir can burn Skuntank with WoW or hit it with a powerful Focus Blast on the switch. I still think Hypno is way better than most people give it credit for, but it's definitely risky to use with Skunk being a staple on standard offensive cores.

I think Poliwrath is just a really solid glue Pokemon that fits perfectly on certain teams to cover a weakness, kind of similar to Vileplume or Nidoqueen. I would not compare it to Medicham or Hitmonchan at all.

Floatzel > Sharpedo in just about every situation imo except maybe as a lead on certain teams. The extra speed is just too important.

Sableye is a cool alternative to Dusclops. I would not call Misdreavus a good defensive Ghost-type though. It's extremely matchup dependent and can't actually switch in on Medicham which should be the #1 priority for a Ghost-type on a defensive team. It is an annoying stallbreaker though.

Agree that it was nice to see more of Cradily and that Ninetales is always underrated.

On a somewhat related note, I've got an updated set of usage stats for the last 3 years of NUPL DPP matches. Not too much changed overall from the stats I posted last year (which is unsurprising given that this is a rolling 3-year sample in an old meta), but there have been a few noticeable shifts: Lickilicky jumped into the top 10, Magneton surpassed Manectric as the go-to Electric-type, and Shiftry, Venomoth, and Cradily have all made big jumps up while Haunter, Floatzel, Magmortar, Vileplume, and Cacturne have all become less popular. Aside from a couple of outliers (Jynx and Magmortar too low) I think these stats are a very good representation of the metagame.

There were also a few changes around the 3.4% cutoff, for anyone interested in a DPP PU meta based off of tourney usage: Sharpedo and Regice rose to NU, but Rhydon, Roselia, Whiscash, Sneasel, Mantine, and Porygon2 all fell to PU.
Code: 
+ ---- + ------------------ + ----- +
| Rank | Pokemon            |   %   |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ----- +
| 1    | Regirock           | 45.3% |
| 2    | Slowking           | 42.9% |
| 3    | Tauros             | 41.1% |
| 4    | Charizard          | 30.4% |
| 5    | Skuntank           | 25.0% |
| 5    | Hitmonchan         | 25.0% |
| 7    | Lickilicky         | 18.5% |
| 8    | Sandslash          | 17.9% |
| 9    | Nidoqueen          | 17.3% |
| 10   | Medicham           | 16.1% |
| 10   | Gligar             | 16.1% |
| 12   | Gardevoir          | 15.5% |
| 12   | Magneton           | 15.5% |
| 14   | Haunter            | 14.9% |
| 15   | Shiftry            | 12.5% |
| 16   | Manectric          | 11.9% |
| 16   | Drifblim           | 11.9% |
| 16   | Jynx               | 11.9% |
| 16   | Typhlosion         | 11.9% |
| 16   | Venomoth           | 11.9% |
| 16   | Cradily            | 11.9% |
| 22   | Floatzel           | 11.3% |
| 22   | Poliwrath          | 11.3% |
| 24   | Magmortar          |  8.9% |
| 25   | Vileplume          |  8.3% |
| 26   | Grumpig            |  7.7% |
| 26   | Dodrio             |  7.7% |
| 28   | Cacturne           |  7.1% |
| 29   | Muk                |  6.0% |
| 30   | Sharpedo           |  4.8% |
| 31   | Hypno              |  4.2% |
| 31   | Dusclops           |  4.2% |
| 33   | Glalie             |  3.6% |
| 33   | Meganium           |  3.6% |
| 33   | Electrode          |  3.6% |
| 33   | Solrock            |  3.6% |
| 33   | Jumpluff           |  3.6% |
| 33   | Regice             |  3.6% |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ----- +
| 39   | Rhydon             |  3.0% |
| 39   | Roselia            |  3.0% |
| 39   | Politoed           |  3.0% |
| 39   | Persian            |  3.0% |
| 43   | Marowak            |  2.4% |
| 43   | Whiscash           |  2.4% |
| 43   | Misdreavus         |  2.4% |
| 43   | Golem              |  2.4% |
| 43   | Sneasel            |  2.4% |
| 43   | Mantine            |  2.4% |
| 43   | Crawdaunt          |  2.4% |
| 43   | Piloswine          |  2.4% |
| 43   | Pinsir             |  2.4% |
| 43   | Gorebyss           |  2.4% |
| 53   | Porygon2           |  1.8% |
| 53   | Machoke            |  1.8% |
| 53   | Camerupt           |  1.8% |
| 53   | Probopass          |  1.8% |
| 53   | Quagsire           |  1.8% |
| 53   | Rapidash           |  1.8% |
| 53   | Xatu               |  1.8% |
| 53   | Armaldo            |  1.8% |
| 61   | Ninetales          |  1.2% |
| 61   | Victreebel         |  1.2% |
| 61   | Lapras             |  1.2% |
| 61   | Linoone            |  1.2% |
| 61   | Relicanth          |  1.2% |
| 61   | Sableye            |  1.2% |
| 61   | Golduck            |  1.2% |
| 61   | Walrein            |  1.2% |
| 69   | Rampardos          |  0.6% |
| 69   | Bibarel            |  0.6% |
| 69   | Gastrodon          |  0.6% |
| 69   | Monferno           |  0.6% |
| 69   | Arbok              |  0.6% |
| 69   | Electabuzz         |  0.6% |
| 69   | Granbull           |  0.6% |
| 69   | Bastiodon          |  0.6% |
| 69   | Delibird           |  0.6% |
| 69   | Furret             |  0.6% |
| 69   | Kingler            |  0.6% |
| 69   | Purugly            |  0.6% |
| 69   | Raticate           |  0.6% |
| 69   | Slaking            |  0.6% |
| 69   | Wailord            |  0.6% |
| 69   | Articuno           |  0.6% |
| 69   | Clamperl           |  0.6% |
| 69   | Trapinch           |  0.6% |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ----- +
 
entei.png
?

Should we have an Entei retest?

I'm posting this basically out of curiosity, but after learning that Entei was banned in DPP NU before Regirock and Slowking dropped into the tier, I was curious to see if it was worth retesting Entei.
 
Chatted about this with ThriceElite briefly beforehand and thought this could be an interesting idea. My opinion is that it would be better than Zard and Zard is already an incredibly good Fire, so I'm very hesitant.

I could see Flare Blitz-less Entei being really interesting because that leaves Entei as /only/ a bulky Fire capable of running a good CM set and that could be neat for the tier. But with Flare Blitz, Entei basically has two reliable switchins, in Regirock and Poliwrath. And Entei being forced out isn't a death sentence since it's only 2x weak to rocks, not 4x. It's also considerably bulkier than Zard.

I don't think Entei would be horrifically broken in the way that many UU mons would be in NU... but it would be very, very good and pretty strongly alter the tier. The standard team would have all of Entei, Regirock, and either Poliwrath/Slowking. That's not a change I would want to see.
 
Yeah, I agree with Bughouse. Adding Entei would only exacerbate NU's main weakness imo, which is that it's already easy for a lot of teambuilding to boil down to Fire/Fighting-types + Skuntank + Fire/Fighting-checks.

It might be fun to play around with in a few matches, but I would have no interest in actually "officially" retesting it (or making any other tiering changes tbh).
 
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