Singles 3v3 General Discussion

Theorymon

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Something to note about Mimikyu is that its new stronger Z-move makes it quite a bit easier to justify bulky Mimikyu variants now. For example, running enough bulk to survive Mega Blaziken's unboosted Flare Blitz (I forgot the EVs for that, sorry!) is pretty reasonable.
 
The significant megamence drop since SM is something I personally believe is primarily because of the new shiny toy in naganadel. It's also another change that I believe will be mostly reverted back with megamence eventually rising to its former spot near top 5 in the future once the meta game settle down.
I don't know. I really don't see a salamence much, at all. I think I see it maybe once every...10+ battles or so. I'm assuming there are quite a few well used pokemons that give mence a hard time.
 

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Anyone that's been perusing nouthuca for S7 results will have no doubt noticed this team, and slight variations, appearing several times near the top.
e_li_poke #3 2210
Hippowdon @ Figy Berry
Ability: Sand Stream
Level: 50
EVs: 228 HP / 140 Def / 140 SpD
Impish Nature
- Earthquake
- Stealth Rock
- Yawn
- Whirlwind

Salamence-Mega @ Salamencite
Ability: Intimidate
Level: 50
EVs: 212 HP / 68 Atk / 4 Def / 156 SpD / 68 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Return
- Dragon Dance
- Substitute
- Roost

Aegislash @ Steelium Z
Ability: Stance Change
Level: 50
EVs: 172 HP / 252 Atk / 84 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Iron Head
- Shadow Sneak
- Swords Dance
- King's Shield

Tapu Koko @ Wiki Berry
Ability: Electric Surge
Level: 50
EVs: 212 HP / 4 Def / 4 SpA / 92 SpD / 196 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Volt Switch
- Dazzling Gleam
- Nature's Madness
- Taunt

Greninja @ Waterium Z
Ability: Torrent
Level: 50
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Hydro Cannon
- Water Shuriken
- Substitute

Kartana @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Beast Boost
Level: 50
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Leaf Blade
- Smart Strike
- Sacred Sword
- Knock Off
Making good use of the Hippo-Mence/Setup and Mence-Aegi-Koko structures we're so familiar with by now.
Particular choices I find interesting are the use SD-Steelium Aegi and stall breaker Koko, neither of which are common but both fit very well with the other members of the team. And, of course, our good friend Torrent Greninja, and this time it's even triple water move.
Scarf Kartana, I think, is a really nice choice. With either Hippo or Koko providing the chip needed to get the intial KO and Beast Boost snowball rolling. Also covering the increasingly popular M-Gyarados, after its DDed, and providing secondary answers to opposing Greninja and Koko. Sacred Sword also offers a strong response to Glalie, which will find itself in desperate need of Speed/SpA moody boosts or Sheer Cold to take out Kartana. Not kidding about the SpA boost either, 0 SpA Glalie Frost Breath vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Kartana on a critical hit: 100-118 (74 - 87.4%).
Some of the variations in sets include using a Toxic stall Koko, and Toxic Aegislash. The Hippo and Mence sets are identical throughout, though Hippo EVs vary.
Shinya #5 2207
->
Hippowdon @ Mago Berry
Ability: Sand Stream
Level: 50
EVs: 228 HP / 60 Def / 220 SpD
Careful Nature
- Earthquake
- Stealth Rock
- Yawn
- Whirlwind

Salamence-Mega @ Salamencite
Ability: Intimidate
Level: 50
Happiness: 0
EVs: 212 HP / 52 Atk / 4 Def / 156 SpD / 84 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Frustration
- Substitute
- Roost
- Dragon Dance

Aegislash @ Leftovers
Ability: Stance Change
Level: 50
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Quiet Nature
- Shadow Ball
- Shadow Sneak
- Toxic
- King's Shield

Tapu Koko @ Wiki Berry
Ability: Electric Surge
Level: 50
EVs: 212 HP / 4 Def / 4 SpA / 92 SpD / 196 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Discharge
- Reflect
- Toxic
- Roost

Greninja @ Waterium Z
Ability: Torrent
Level: 50
EVs: 12 HP / 12 Def / 228 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hydro Cannon
- Dark Pulse
- Ice Beam
- Substitute

Mimikyu @ Mimikium Z
Ability: Disguise
Level: 50
EVs: 196 HP / 156 Atk / 148 Def / 4 SpD / 4 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Play Rough
- Shadow Sneak
- Curse
- Swords Dance

jillpoke #6 2204
->
(though used Greninja and Mimikyu in the lower/mid ladder)
Hippowdon @ Iapapa Berry
Ability: Sand Stream
Level: 50
EVs: 228 HP / 140 Def / 140 SpD
Impish Nature
- Earthquake
- Stealth Rock
- Yawn
- Whirlwind

Salamence-Mega @ Salamencite
Ability: Intimidate
Level: 50
EVs: 212 HP / 68 Atk / 4 Def / 156 SpD / 68 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Return
- Dragon Dance
- Substitute
- Roost

Aegislash @ Leftovers
Ability: Stance Change
Level: 50
EVs: 204 HP / 4 Def / 100 SpA / 100 SpD / 100 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shadow Ball
- Toxic
- Substitute
- King's Shield

Tapu Koko @ Iapapa Berry
Ability: Electric Surge
Level: 50
EVs: 212 HP / 4 Def / 4 SpA / 92 SpD / 196 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Volt Switch
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Nature's Madness
- Taunt

Milotic @ Flame Orb
Ability: Marvel Scale
Level: 50
EVs: 244 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA / 4 SpD / 4 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Icy Wind
- Toxic
- Recover

Kartana @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Beast Boost
Level: 50
Happiness: 0
EVs: 68 HP / 100 Atk / 4 Def / 148 SpD / 188 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Leaf Blade
- Smart Strike
- Frustration
- Knock Off

banbee #12 2175
(Same 6)
Hippowdon @ Aguav Berry
Ability: Sand Stream
Level: 50
EVs: 228 HP / 140 Def / 140 SpD
Impish Nature
- Earthquake
- Stealth Rock
- Yawn
- Whirlwind

Salamence-Mega @ Salamencite
Ability: Intimidate
Level: 50
EVs: 212 HP / 68 Atk / 4 Def / 156 SpD / 68 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Return
- Dragon Dance
- Substitute
- Roost

Aegislash @ Steelium Z
Ability: Stance Change
Level: 50
EVs: 188 HP / 252 Atk / 68 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Iron Head
- Shadow Sneak
- Swords Dance
- King's Shield

Tapu Koko @ Iapapa Berry
Ability: Electric Surge
Level: 50
EVs: 212 HP / 4 Def / 4 SpA / 92 SpD / 196 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Toxic
- Reflect
- Roost

Greninja @ Waterium Z
Ability: Torrent
Level: 50
EVs: 12 HP / 12 Def / 228 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Hydro Cannon
- Water Shuriken
- Substitute

Kartana @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Beast Boost
Level: 50
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Leaf Blade
- Smart Strike
- Sacred Sword
- Knock Off

clover #158 2075
(Same 6)
Hippowdon @ Figy Berry
Ability: Sand Stream
Level: 50
EVs: 228 HP / 4 Atk / 12 Def / 252 SpD / 12 Spe
Careful Nature
- Earthquake
- Stealth Rock
- Yawn
- Whirlwind

Salamence-Mega @ Salamencite
Ability: Intimidate
Level: 50
Happiness: 0
EVs: 212 HP / 68 Atk / 4 Def / 156 SpD / 68 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Frustration
- Dragon Dance
- Substitute
- Roost

Aegislash @ Steelium Z
Ability: Stance Change
Level: 50
EVs: 188 HP / 252 Atk / 68 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Iron Head
- Shadow Sneak
- Swords Dance
- King's Shield

Tapu Koko @ Iapapa Berry
Ability: Electric Surge
Level: 50
EVs: 108 HP / 76 Def / 4 SpA / 124 SpD / 196 Spe
Timid Nature
- Thunderbolt
- Toxic
- U-turn
- Roost

Greninja @ Waterium Z
Ability: Torrent
Level: 50
EVs: 76 HP / 244 SpA / 188 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Hydro Cannon
- Water Shuriken
- Substitute

Kartana @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Beast Boost
Level: 50
EVs: 116 HP / 44 Atk / 4 Def / 92 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Leaf Blade
- Smart Strike
- Sacred Sword
- Knock Off
 
Anyone that's been perusing nouthuca for S7 results will have no doubt noticed this team, and slight variations, appearing several times near the top.
e_li_poke #3 2210
Hippowdon @ Figy Berry
Ability: Sand Stream
Level: 50
EVs: 228 HP / 140 Def / 140 SpD
Impish Nature
- Earthquake
- Stealth Rock
- Yawn
- Whirlwind

Salamence-Mega @ Salamencite
Ability: Intimidate
Level: 50
EVs: 212 HP / 68 Atk / 4 Def / 156 SpD / 68 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Return
- Dragon Dance
- Substitute
- Roost

Aegislash @ Steelium Z
Ability: Stance Change
Level: 50
EVs: 172 HP / 252 Atk / 84 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Iron Head
- Shadow Sneak
- Swords Dance
- King's Shield

Tapu Koko @ Wiki Berry
Ability: Electric Surge
Level: 50
EVs: 212 HP / 4 Def / 4 SpA / 92 SpD / 196 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Volt Switch
- Dazzling Gleam
- Nature's Madness
- Taunt

Greninja @ Waterium Z
Ability: Torrent
Level: 50
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Hydro Cannon
- Water Shuriken
- Substitute

Kartana @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Beast Boost
Level: 50
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Leaf Blade
- Smart Strike
- Sacred Sword
- Knock Off
Making good use of the Hippo-Mence/Setup and Mence-Aegi-Koko structures we're so familiar with by now.
Particular choices I find interesting are the use SD-Steelium Aegi and stall breaker Koko, neither of which are common but both fit very well with the other members of the team. And, of course, our good friend Torrent Greninja, and this time it's even triple water move.
Scarf Kartana, I think, is a really nice choice. With either Hippo or Koko providing the chip needed to get the intial KO and Beast Boost snowball rolling. Also covering the increasingly popular M-Gyarados, after its DDed, and providing secondary answers to opposing Greninja and Koko. Sacred Sword also offers a strong response to Glalie, which will find itself in desperate need of Speed/SpA moody boosts or Sheer Cold to take out Kartana. Not kidding about the SpA boost either, 0 SpA Glalie Frost Breath vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Kartana on a critical hit: 100-118 (74 - 87.4%).
Some of the variations in sets include using a Toxic stall Koko, and Toxic Aegislash. The Hippo and Mence sets are identical throughout, though Hippo EVs vary.
Shinya #5 2207
->
Hippowdon @ Mago Berry
Ability: Sand Stream
Level: 50
EVs: 228 HP / 60 Def / 220 SpD
Careful Nature
- Earthquake
- Stealth Rock
- Yawn
- Whirlwind

Salamence-Mega @ Salamencite
Ability: Intimidate
Level: 50
Happiness: 0
EVs: 212 HP / 52 Atk / 4 Def / 156 SpD / 84 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Frustration
- Substitute
- Roost
- Dragon Dance

Aegislash @ Leftovers
Ability: Stance Change
Level: 50
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Quiet Nature
- Shadow Ball
- Shadow Sneak
- Toxic
- King's Shield

Tapu Koko @ Wiki Berry
Ability: Electric Surge
Level: 50
EVs: 212 HP / 4 Def / 4 SpA / 92 SpD / 196 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Discharge
- Reflect
- Toxic
- Roost

Greninja @ Waterium Z
Ability: Torrent
Level: 50
EVs: 12 HP / 12 Def / 228 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hydro Cannon
- Dark Pulse
- Ice Beam
- Substitute

Mimikyu @ Mimikium Z
Ability: Disguise
Level: 50
EVs: 196 HP / 156 Atk / 148 Def / 4 SpD / 4 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Play Rough
- Shadow Sneak
- Curse
- Swords Dance

jillpoke #6 2204
->
(though used Greninja and Mimikyu in the lower/mid ladder)
Hippowdon @ Iapapa Berry
Ability: Sand Stream
Level: 50
EVs: 228 HP / 140 Def / 140 SpD
Impish Nature
- Earthquake
- Stealth Rock
- Yawn
- Whirlwind

Salamence-Mega @ Salamencite
Ability: Intimidate
Level: 50
EVs: 212 HP / 68 Atk / 4 Def / 156 SpD / 68 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Return
- Dragon Dance
- Substitute
- Roost

Aegislash @ Leftovers
Ability: Stance Change
Level: 50
EVs: 204 HP / 4 Def / 100 SpA / 100 SpD / 100 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shadow Ball
- Toxic
- Substitute
- King's Shield

Tapu Koko @ Iapapa Berry
Ability: Electric Surge
Level: 50
EVs: 212 HP / 4 Def / 4 SpA / 92 SpD / 196 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Volt Switch
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Nature's Madness
- Taunt

Milotic @ Flame Orb
Ability: Marvel Scale
Level: 50
EVs: 244 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA / 4 SpD / 4 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Icy Wind
- Toxic
- Recover

Kartana @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Beast Boost
Level: 50
Happiness: 0
EVs: 68 HP / 100 Atk / 4 Def / 148 SpD / 188 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Leaf Blade
- Smart Strike
- Frustration
- Knock Off

banbee #12 2175
(Same 6)
Hippowdon @ Aguav Berry
Ability: Sand Stream
Level: 50
EVs: 228 HP / 140 Def / 140 SpD
Impish Nature
- Earthquake
- Stealth Rock
- Yawn
- Whirlwind

Salamence-Mega @ Salamencite
Ability: Intimidate
Level: 50
EVs: 212 HP / 68 Atk / 4 Def / 156 SpD / 68 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Return
- Dragon Dance
- Substitute
- Roost

Aegislash @ Steelium Z
Ability: Stance Change
Level: 50
EVs: 188 HP / 252 Atk / 68 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Iron Head
- Shadow Sneak
- Swords Dance
- King's Shield

Tapu Koko @ Iapapa Berry
Ability: Electric Surge
Level: 50
EVs: 212 HP / 4 Def / 4 SpA / 92 SpD / 196 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Toxic
- Reflect
- Roost

Greninja @ Waterium Z
Ability: Torrent
Level: 50
EVs: 12 HP / 12 Def / 228 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Hydro Cannon
- Water Shuriken
- Substitute

Kartana @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Beast Boost
Level: 50
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Leaf Blade
- Smart Strike
- Sacred Sword
- Knock Off

clover #158 2075
(Same 6)
Hippowdon @ Figy Berry
Ability: Sand Stream
Level: 50
EVs: 228 HP / 4 Atk / 12 Def / 252 SpD / 12 Spe
Careful Nature
- Earthquake
- Stealth Rock
- Yawn
- Whirlwind

Salamence-Mega @ Salamencite
Ability: Intimidate
Level: 50
Happiness: 0
EVs: 212 HP / 68 Atk / 4 Def / 156 SpD / 68 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Frustration
- Dragon Dance
- Substitute
- Roost

Aegislash @ Steelium Z
Ability: Stance Change
Level: 50
EVs: 188 HP / 252 Atk / 68 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Iron Head
- Shadow Sneak
- Swords Dance
- King's Shield

Tapu Koko @ Iapapa Berry
Ability: Electric Surge
Level: 50
EVs: 108 HP / 76 Def / 4 SpA / 124 SpD / 196 Spe
Timid Nature
- Thunderbolt
- Toxic
- U-turn
- Roost

Greninja @ Waterium Z
Ability: Torrent
Level: 50
EVs: 76 HP / 244 SpA / 188 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Hydro Cannon
- Water Shuriken
- Substitute

Kartana @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Beast Boost
Level: 50
EVs: 116 HP / 44 Atk / 4 Def / 92 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Leaf Blade
- Smart Strike
- Sacred Sword
- Knock Off
Very nice. I've been trying to the SpDef Mence-Mega. I've been trying this team out and I've not been mowing down the ladder. I found it hard to use but I'm sure I'm using it wrongly.

On an interesting note, it's crazy how Mence-Mega is ~top3 in usage by the top players while it's not even top 10 in the usage stats by all. Blaze-Mega usage is also interesting and it's like Mence-Mega but complete opposite where it's used a shit ton in general but not so much by the top players, seemingly.
 
Hey. So I’ve played OU for a while. But in Battle Spot, how do you counter someone leading with a Smeargle with Spore. They then Substitute and boost. If you led with something slower, how would you win? You get spored on the first turn, you switch on the second turn to a faster pokemon. You destroy the substitute on the third turn and get put to sleep again.

Do I just have to switch the first turn the moment I see Smeargle, and otherwise I’ve basically lost? Besides getting a priority move, I don’t see any way around that isn’t incredibly niche.
 

ethan06

⋖(☼┆☼)⋗
is a Community Contributor Alumnus
Hey. So I’ve played OU for a while. But in Battle Spot, how do you counter someone leading with a Smeargle with Spore. They then Substitute and boost. If you led with something slower, how would you win? You get spored on the first turn, you switch on the second turn to a faster pokemon. You destroy the substitute on the third turn and get put to sleep again.

Do I just have to switch the first turn the moment I see Smeargle, and otherwise I’ve basically lost? Besides getting a priority move, I don’t see any way around that isn’t incredibly niche.
The best way to deal with sleep based strategies is to research ways to block the status itself. Spore is a powder move, so Grass-types are naturally immune to it - an offensive Grass-type such as Kartana, Breloom, Venusaur, or Tapu Bulu would be well-suited to dealing with Smeargle. Electric Terrain and Misty Terrain block sleep for grounded teammates so including a Tapu Koko or a Tapu Fini on your team. As for Substitute-based strategies, you can use Pokémon with powerful multi-hit moves to break the Substitute and continue to deal damage (good examples are Breloom, Mamoswine, or Cloyster), or you can use a sound-based move such as Bug Buzz, Hyper Voice, or Sparkling Aria to bypass the Substitute altogether (some good users of these moves are Volcarona, Mega Salamence, Mega Gardevoir, and Primarina). Lastly, Smeargle's not a particularly fast Pokémon with only 75 base Speed, so using a faster Pokémon with Taunt to shut down its supportive capabilities can be very useful. If you can work one or more of these contingencies into your team then it'll pay dividends against this kind of strategy, so experiment and find a solution that suits you and your squad. Best of luck :)

e: These are all teambuilding solutions, so in practice there's not a ton you can do if you don't already have one of these options (or any of the more left-field options such as Sleep Talk) on your team - however, if you do then the best option is to switch to that option immediately upon seeing Smeargle. Why give your opponent the opportunity to carry out their gameplan right in front of you when you can move to counter it immediately? This is even more important in BSS where games are quicker, shorter, and easier to win (or lose) in a hurry.
 
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HELLO SMOGON!! This is my first post here! Last week I traded away a bunch of old events on Reddit for 30 something, legally raised, completely trained Pokemon WITH power items. Currently sitting at 21-27 in Battle Spot Singles and really enjoying it. It feels great to actually play vs other people on the actual cartridge. I kinda wish there was a 6v6 singles...but I feel more pokemon are viable in the 3v3 meta so that's kind of cool. Maybe not more, but different Pokemon....for instance, I love Magnezone, but he's not great in 3v3 Singles....anyway....

I just wanted to get in on the above conversation....A lot of teams that use sleep moves (I see Breloom a lot right now) use it as a lead, right? I've been running leads with Lum Berry and it takes people by surprise a lot. Stuff like Hippowdown, Garchomp, Cloyster....seems like a simple solution but it takes care of Breloom and Smeargle everytime.
 

ethan06

⋖(☼┆☼)⋗
is a Community Contributor Alumnus
I actually really like Magnezone in this meta - it's a niche pick for sure but I definitely reckon it's viable with a whole bunch of different sets. All three of its abilities have diferent and distinct uses, which means that it can run a whole bunch of different sets with different functionalities pretty well - Sturdy means that it can go one-for-one with pretty much any Pokémon, Magnet Pull can remove annoying bulky Pokémon such as Celesteela and Ferrothorn from a game without any trouble, and Analytic makes Choice Specs truly scary in terms of sheer damage output. As far as move and items go, I've seen Hidden Power [Ice], Substitute, Charge Beam, Assault Vest, Choice Scarf, Choice Specs, FIWAM Berries, Life Orb, Electrium Z, Steelium Z once or twice... it serves a very specific purpose, and for sure it's inhibited by the weaknesses to Landurs and Blaziken, but the jobs it does do are pretty fantastic.

While I'm here, I was thinking about Z-Hydro Cannon Greninja, and how it takes advantage of Torrent to deliver a ridiculous one-time nuke, and it got me wondering if any of the other starters could maybe pull off something similar? Primarina can already with Oceanic Operetta, and I'd say that Grass-types have poor enough coverage that Spectile or something would never work, but do you guys reckon there'd be any merit in a Z-Blast Burn Infernape build? lol probably not but fun to think about
 
While I'm here, I was thinking about Z-Hydro Cannon Greninja, and how it takes advantage of Torrent to deliver a ridiculous one-time nuke, and it got me wondering if any of the other starters could maybe pull off something similar? Primarina can already with Oceanic Operetta, and I'd say that Grass-types have poor enough coverage that Spectile or something would never work, but do you guys reckon there'd be any merit in a Z-Blast Burn Infernape build? lol probably not but fun to think about
Hey, probably not the best to answer this, but perhaps I can give my perspective to why we only see Greninja using this strategy and why it's likely to stay that way.

First thing to look at is the speed tiers, you need to get off a quick substitute up against most of the tier. I generally tend towards base 100 past which I start to consider mons speedy. That means you are outspeeding Mimikyu, Lando-T, both zard forms (assuming no DD/FC), specs lele, gliscor, volcarona pre-QD, Mega Kangaskan and Zapdos. Of course this isn't ideal, but is what I'd call a bare minimum to be able to substitute before the majority of the metagame and thereby guarantee overgrow/torrent/blaze range.

Of the starters, you have the following above base 100:<br />
<br />
Greninja: Base 122 speed
Sceptile: Base 120 speed
Serperior: Base 113 speed
Infernape: Base 108 speed
Delphox: Base 104 speed

You also technically have the elemental apes which hit base 101, but I'll discount these for now.

Ideally, you'd also want to be above base 110, outspeeding Mega Metagross, which would lower the viability of both Infernape and Delphox for this strategy as well.

What makes Greninja so much more suited to it than those other mons?

1. Typing

I'm just going to come out and say that water is the best offensive typing out of the starter three (fire is close tho and this is just my opinion), at least when it comes to BSS. A simple look down the viability rankings and you can see 12/49 mons in S -> A- actually resist water, of which 3 of them like for example Kartana are basically getting OHKOed by Z-Hydro Cannon anyways. 21/49 mons resist grass, sure some of them will fall over anyways like Pheromosa, but in general its just a lot easier to check defensively, some key pokemon like mega mence, mega venusaur, mega zard, celesteela and ferrothorn four times resist grass. Similar story can be said for fire type to a lesser extent, though only 14/49 pokemon actually resist it, so perhaps you could run a delphox or an infernape.

2. Ability

The fact that Greninja is a lot more unpredictable than these mons allows it to be run easier. Yes, this Z-Hydrocannon set is the flavour of the month, but one has to respect protean Greninja, whereas the other mons aren't as offensively threatening. If running this set, I can bring mega mence on every other starter mon without some weird tech except Greninja, which outspeeds and ohkos it if it has ice beam. There is also serp glare, but I could technically risk that and be ok the next turn. Same with speed boost mega blaziken which is 2hkod by priority shuriken. It's that super fast speed tier that really pushes it above the edge, yes sceptile has a very fast speed too but its movepool isn't anywhere near as good. Infernape has a great move pool, but doesn't quite have the speed and why use it when you could use mega blaziken instead. This is the same issue Delphox has, except its also a bad mon on top of that. Notice I haven't mentioned serperior yet, it's fast, it has a great secondary ability contrary that is real threatening too, but its threatening only because of the boosts. Without the boosts, it has worse offensive stats than meganium at base 75. That ain't killing no-one.

Overall I don't think we'll be seeing anything except greninja here and I'd be tempted to say that despite the fact is a nuke, I think it can be played around and is actually quite predictable considering you need three substitutes to get into torrent range, which means its telegraphed quite heavily a lot of the time as Greninja isn't eating neutral hits at all and suffers in coverage since both hydro cannon, shurikan and substitute are needed IMO. Shurikan is essential since it guarantees extra damage that none of the other starters have after the z move and the enemy poke breaks the sub. I'd be tempted to say it'll probably drop off as people learn how to play around it and I find protean to be a lot more scary in what it can do, but that's just my personal opinion and I may well be wrong.
 
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cant say

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While I'm here, I was thinking about Z-Hydro Cannon Greninja, and how it takes advantage of Torrent to deliver a ridiculous one-time nuke, and it got me wondering if any of the other starters could maybe pull off something similar? Primarina can already with Oceanic Operetta, and I'd say that Grass-types have poor enough coverage that Spectile or something would never work, but do you guys reckon there'd be any merit in a Z-Blast Burn Infernape build? lol probably not but fun to think about
I've actually been thinking about this myself, but sadly I think the list ends at Greninja. You already mentioned Primarina, sp the only other viable pick is Swarm Volcarona, which is already a thing, because +1 Swarm Z-Bug Buzz OHKOes pretty much everything, and it's able to achieve that because Quiver Dance is an insane move. Infernape looks fun on paper, but it's slower than a frustrating amount of popular mons, so it can't Sub into Blaze range safely very often. It could probably use a Focus Sash pretty effectively but then it isn't bopping stuff with Inferno Overdrive... Sadly, the other starters / Swarm users don't have the stats/moves to pull it off. Prim is (decently) bulky with great coverage and Aqua Jet, Gren is ultra fast, and Volc has an amazing setup move with stats to back it up.

The real gimmick would be SubSalac + Belly Drum Charizard with either Fire Punch or Flame Charge as the Blaze spam move. That would be a sight to behold lol
 
I actually really like Magnezone in this meta - it's a niche pick for sure but I definitely reckon it's viable with a whole bunch of different sets. All three of its abilities have diferent and distinct uses, which means that it can run a whole bunch of different sets with different functionalities pretty well - Sturdy means that it can go one-for-one with pretty much any Pokémon, Magnet Pull can remove annoying bulky Pokémon such as Celesteela and Ferrothorn from a game without any trouble, and Analytic makes Choice Specs truly scary in terms of sheer damage output. As far as move and items go, I've seen Hidden Power [Ice], Substitute, Charge Beam, Assault Vest, Choice Scarf, Choice Specs, FIWAM Berries, Life Orb, Electrium Z, Steelium Z once or twice... it serves a very specific purpose, and for sure it's inhibited by the weaknesses to Landurs and Blaziken, but the jobs it does do are pretty fantastic.

While I'm here, I was thinking about Z-Hydro Cannon Greninja, and how it takes advantage of Torrent to deliver a ridiculous one-time nuke, and it got me wondering if any of the other starters could maybe pull off something similar? Primarina can already with Oceanic Operetta, and I'd say that Grass-types have poor enough coverage that Spectile or something would never work, but do you guys reckon there'd be any merit in a Z-Blast Burn Infernape build? lol probably not but fun to think about
I want to run HP ice on a lot of pokes. Mainly Zapdos and Magnezone, but it's so hard to do it on cart without hacking.
 

ethan06

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I want to run HP ice on a lot of pokes. Mainly Zapdos and Magnezone, but it's so hard to do it on cart without hacking.
HP Ice isn't actually all that difficult for special attackers - if you can breed a Pokémon with parents that have an IV spread of 31/x/x/31/31/31, then it's possible or even likely that you'll get a HP Ice baby when the Attack and Defense IVs are even. It's one of the more common Hidden Power types for legendaries as well so if you're hyper training, then it shouldn't take too long to get it with the right nature. HP Fire is the real killer, take it from me ;)
 
Okay.... So, I just want to ask a question. Can a Nihilego work without Hidden Power Ice, or Fire? The reason I'm asking is, I managed to catch a Shiny Nihilego. And Synchronize worked, so it actually turned out Timid.... The problem is, its Hidden Power is Ghost...

So, unfortunately, I might not be able to run some of the more meta tactics.... But, can one work without those? The move set I currently have for it is.

-Power Gem
-Sludge Wave
-Stealth Rock
-Grass Knot

Would this work okay with Focus Sash? Or am I completely screwed with this?
 

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Okay.... So, I just want to ask a question. Can a Nihilego work without Hidden Power Ice, or Fire? The reason I'm asking is, I managed to catch a Shiny Nihilego. And Synchronize worked, so it actually turned out Timid.... The problem is, its Hidden Power is Ghost...

So, unfortunately, I might not be able to run some of the more meta tactics.... But, can one work without those? The move set I currently have for it is.

-Power Gem
-Sludge Wave
-Stealth Rock
-Grass Knot

Would this work okay with Focus Sash? Or am I completely screwed with this?
You do lose out on a very valuable tool by not having HP Ice/Fire/Ground, but Nihilego is very workable without Hidden Power. That set in particular works just fine, just make sure the rest of the team can handle Landorus-T leads, in particular make sure you have teammates that can switch into it safely. You can even opt for Psychic over Grass Knot if the ability to hit Mega Venusaur and Mega Gengar is more appealing, you can even fit Thunderbolt or Thunder Wave in there as well. Hidden Power is never a necessary tool for Nihilego since it fills the role of an offensive support mon or revenge killer, so it typically shouldn't be relied on as the only way to deal with those respective threats.
 
You do lose out on a very valuable tool by not having HP Ice/Fire/Ground, but Nihilego is very workable without Hidden Power. That set in particular works just fine, just make sure the rest of the team can handle Landorus-T leads, in particular make sure you have teammates that can switch into it safely. You can even opt for Psychic over Grass Knot if the ability to hit Mega Venusaur and Mega Gengar is more appealing, you can even fit Thunderbolt or Thunder Wave in there as well. Hidden Power is never a necessary tool for Nihilego since it fills the role of an offensive support mon or revenge killer, so it typically shouldn't be relied on as the only way to deal with those respective threats.
Alright, thank you very much for that advice. I think I might have a Shiny Porygon2 I bred who can tank some of Lando's attacks. And hit it back with Ice Beam. I just need to find a potential lead....
 
Say guys, quick question about Landorus. With Landorus currently ranked as S tier and being all over the place, everything and it's cat tends to run Ice coverage for it which has me wondering. Would Yache berry a good item to make Landorus more consistent against all the Ice Punches and HP Ices that'll get tossed its way? Or are Assault Vest and Super Sitrus Berries generally better for longevity?
 
HP Ice isn't actually all that difficult for special attackers - if you can breed a Pokémon with parents that have an IV spread of 31/x/x/31/31/31, then it's possible or even likely that you'll get a HP Ice baby when the Attack and Defense IVs are even. It's one of the more common Hidden Power types for legendaries as well so if you're hyper training, then it shouldn't take too long to get it with the right nature. HP Fire is the real killer, take it from me ;)
Ok sweet...wait so their hidden power can change through hyper training??
HUH. Still seems like a lot of work for a very situational move...so it has to be attack and defense that are even numbers right? So like a spread of 31/30/30/31/31/31 is what you hope for? I'm breeding with a 6 IV ditto so it almost seems more often I get 5IVS than IV. Crap I want it on Zapdos, I spent a lot of time on this one -_____-.
 
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cant say

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Ok sweet...wait so their hidden power can change through hyper training??
HUH. Still seems like a lot of work for a very situational move...so it has to be attack and defense that are even numbers right? So like a spread of 31/30/30/31/31/31 is what you hope for? I'm breeding with a 6 IV ditto so it almost seems more often I get 5IVS than IV. Crap I want it on Zapdos, I spent a lot of time on this one -_____-.
The combination of odd and even numbers of IVs is what decides a Hidden Power type. For example, odd/even/even/odd/odd/odd gives Hidden Power Ice, and odd/even/odd/even/odd/even gives Hidden Power Fire. The numbers can be anything between (and including) 0 and 31, the only thing that matters is whether the number is odd or even. Hyper Training does NOT change the IV to 31, it only changes the actual stat to what it would be if the IV was 31. This means you can breed/catch a Rotom with IVs of 23/12/16/3/9/27, which is Hidden Power Ice, then use a gold bottle cap (or 5-6 regular ones) and make its actual stats appear as what they would be if the IV spread was 31/31/31/31/31/31. The only thing is that level grinding up to level 100 for bottle caps to work takes freakin ages....

A full list of Hidden Power IV spreads can be found here: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/simple-questions-requests-mark-49-minor-pokemon-trades-item-requests-etc-go-here-no-hacking.3621037/

Just note the standardised format for listing IV combos is with 31s (representing odd numbers) and 30s (representing even numbers). Remember the actual IV can be any odd or even number. The stat listing order is also universally hp/attack/defense/sp attack/sp defense/speed.

also just wanted to point out that Hidden Power is FAR from a situational move, it's basically mandatory coverage on a heap of special attackers.
 
The combination of odd and even numbers of IVs is what decides a Hidden Power type. For example, odd/even/even/odd/odd/odd gives Hidden Power Ice, and odd/even/odd/even/odd/even gives Hidden Power Fire. The numbers can be anything between (and including) 0 and 31, the only thing that matters is whether the number is odd or even. Hyper Training does NOT change the IV to 31, it only changes the actual stat to what it would be if the IV was 31. This means you can breed/catch a Rotom with IVs of 23/12/16/3/9/27, which is Hidden Power Ice, then use a gold bottle cap (or 5-6 regular ones) and make its actual stats appear as what they would be if the IV spread was 31/31/31/31/31/31. The only thing is that level grinding up to level 100 for bottle caps to work takes freakin ages....

A full list of Hidden Power IV spreads can be found here: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/simple-questions-requests-mark-49-minor-pokemon-trades-item-requests-etc-go-here-no-hacking.3621037/

Just note the standardised format for listing IV combos is with 31s (representing odd numbers) and 30s (representing even numbers). Remember the actual IV can be any odd or even number. The stat listing order is also universally hp/attack/defense/sp attack/sp defense/speed.

also just wanted to point out that Hidden Power is FAR from a situational move, it's basically mandatory coverage on a heap of special attackers.
And given how mandatory HP Ice tends to be, does Yache Berry have use on Landorus over AV? I wanted my Landorus to have support moves while still reliably checking mons that like to run HP Ice or Ice Punch. The threat of HP Ice always haunted me when I was laddering with the Community Team and I thought Yache Berry could make a nice surprise against special attackers and Ice Punch users. And I can live without the Rocky Helmet damage.
 

cant say

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And given how mandatory HP Ice tends to be, does Yache Berry have use on Landorus over AV? I wanted my Landorus to have support moves while still reliably checking mons that like to run HP Ice or Ice Punch. The threat of HP Ice always haunted me when I was laddering with the Community Team and I thought Yache Berry could make a nice surprise against special attackers and Ice Punch users. And I can live without the Rocky Helmet damage.
I wouldn't use it personally. Helmet, Sash, AV, and 50% berries are so good. If you know what commonly carries ice moves you shouldn't be letting Landorus get hit by them anyway. I guess it has potential as a lure but you need to be able to both live the necessary Ice move and capitalise on that by actually killing / crippling the ice move user. However you need significant investment in bulk to actually live things like Protean Greninja and Pheromosa's Ice Beam, and +2 Thundurus-T's HP Ice, and you don't OHKO any of them back as a result, so you're likely just tanking one hit while getting damage off which hardly seems worth it when you're not using a better item like those I listed earlier.
 
I wouldn't use it personally. Helmet, Sash, AV, and 50% berries are so good. If you know what commonly carries ice moves you shouldn't be letting Landorus get hit by them anyway. I guess it has potential as a lure but you need to be able to both live the necessary Ice move and capitalise on that by actually killing / crippling the ice move user. However you need significant investment in bulk to actually live things like Protean Greninja and Pheromosa's Ice Beam, and +2 Thundurus-T's HP Ice, and you don't OHKO any of them back as a result, so you're likely just tanking one hit while getting damage off which hardly seems worth it when you're not using a better item like those I listed earlier.
Thanks. I’m am probably gonna run a pinch berry to make Landorus a better switch in. Hope to start testing my team soon.

Also, can Rock Polish work on set with Stealth Rock, Smack Down, and Earthquake? I’d imagine it could allow for some come from behind clean ups.
 
Best place to go IMO is the calcs for these sorts of things.

Special Side:

The main pokemon that have HP-ice as coverage are the rotom-forms, tapu koko, opposing landorus-T, Thundurus-T, Zapdos and Zard Y.
The main pokemon that have Ice Beam are Porygon2, Greninja, Suicune, Latios, Kingdra, Pheromosa, Tapu Fini
The main pokemon that have Icy Wind are Suicune and Mega-Gengar
The main pokemon that have Freeze-Dry are Lapras and Glalie

Where does Yache do a better job than AV? It works better vs. Thund-T at +2, Hp-Ice has a high chance of OHKOing AV Lando, whereas Yache will always eat the hit. That's pretty much it going through the list. The mons that typically beat AV lando asides from Thund-T, still beat AV lando, the ones who lose will still lose.

Physical Side:

The main pokemon that have ice fang are Mega-Gyarados, Gliscor, Hippowdon
The main pokemon that have icicle crash/ice shard are Mamoswine
The main pokemon that have ice punch are Mega Lopunny, Mega Kangaskan, Tyranitar, Mega Mawile, Mega Metagross and Mega Lucario

In terms of ice fang, these are mainly for the likes of mega-salamence rather than Landorus-T. Gliscor/Hippo don't care about Lando anyways and Mega-Gyarados should probably always waterfall vs Defensive Lando. Yache is better vs. Mega Lopunny/Mega Kangaskan from a pure damage perspective, but rocky helmet is just so good for chipping them as a switchin when they go for fake out or return. If anything, you could use a Chilan berry to better effect vs. these mons. +2 Mega Mawile you techincally have a 0.5% chance of living an Ice Punch. Does no different vs Metagross, unless metagross gets clear body off or a switch in, then Yache can live one hit.

In essence, you can use Yache as kind of a blanket check to Ice attacks if you want to be covering both sides of the spectrum, but if you are going for defensive lando, best to take that rocky helmet, best take the AV if you want a specially defensive lando since a lot of those mons can OHKO with water moves anyways. If you want to counter attacks that generally are 2HKOs and turn them into 3HKOs, take a pinch berry. It's more versatile too since it allows you to switch out after the hit and perhaps take another hit later on.

That's my opinion anyways, would take it with a grain of salt.
 

cant say

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I just had a Mega Kanga with secret power. It paralyzed me and did a bunch of damage...is this legal?
It's less common now than in generation 6 because of the Parental Bond nerf, but yeah people still use it. 30% chance to paralyse (no it doesn't roll twice like Rock Slide / other moves do thank god) is pretty nice, and it also avoids physical contact so random Rocky Helmet users don't get free chip damage.
 

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