Doubles 4v4 Doubles (BSD) Discussion

[cant say]

Battle Stadium Doubles Discussion​

This thread is for anything related to BSD! What's good? What's bad? What crazy Pokemon / sets / strategies have you seen on the ladder? What are your thoughts on the early metagame?

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For those that don't know, Battle Stadium Doubles (BSD) is the ranked doubles mode played on the Switch games. The rules are that you bring 6 Pokemon but choose 4 at team preview, mascot and mythical legendaries are banned, item clause is used., and Gigantamax is banned (not to be confused with VGC which allows certain Gigantamaxes).

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The Dynamax mechanic is explained here:

Dynamax Mechanic:

• You can turn a single pokemon giant for 3 turns once per game.
• It does not require an item, meaning that any pokemon can dynamax at any time.
• When Dynamaxed, each attacking move will turn into the corresponding max move for its type, while status moves turn into Max Guard (basically Protect).
• Gigantamax allows some pokemon to have new forms and special max moves.
• You lose your Dynamax upon switching out.
• Your Pokemon gains a 100% HP Boost while dynamaxed (doubles max HP).
• The base power for max moves are dependent upon the base power of the original move it replaced.
• Dynamaxed pokemon cannot be flinched.
• Dynamaxed pokemon cannot be phased out.
• All weight based moves will fail when used against a dynamaxed pokemon.
• When you Dynamax a Choice Band/Specs/Scarf user, you will no longer be locked into a single attack or get the power/speed buff. However, you will become locked again once dynamax wears off.

Datamine Resources:

Part 1 of Moveset Listings (includes base stats)
Part 2 of Moveset Listings (includes base stats)
List of changes to moves and movepools

New Abilities

Libero: Changes the Pokémon’s type to the type of the move it’s about to use. - Cinderace
Cotton Down: When the Pokémon is hit by an attack, it scatters cotton fluff around and lowers the Speed stat of all Pokémon except itself. - Eldegoss
Propeller Tail: Ignores the effects of opposing Pokémon’s Abilities and moves that draw in moves. - Barraskewda
Mirror Armor: Bounces back only the stat-lowering effects that the Pokémon receives. - Corviknight
Gulp Missile: When the Pokémon uses Surf or Dive, it will come back with prey. When it takes damage, it will spit out the prey to attack. - Cramorant
Stalwart: Ignores the effects of opposing Pokémon’s Abilities and moves that draw in moves. - Duraludon
Steam Engine: Boosts the Pokémon’s Speed stat drastically if hit by a Fire- or Water-type move. - Rolycoly line
Punk Rock: Boosts the power of sound-based moves. The Pokémon also takes half the damage from these kinds of moves. - Toxtricity
Sand Spit: The Pokémon creates a sandstorm when it’s hit by an attack. - Sandaconda
Ice Scales: The Pokémon is protected by ice scales, which halve the damage taken from special moves. - Frosmoth
Ripen: Ripens Berries and doubles their effect. - Flapple/Appletun
Ice Face The Pokémon’s ice head can take a physical attack as a substitute, but the attack also changes the Pokémon’s appearance. The ice will be restored when it hails. - Eiscue
Power Spot: Just being next to the Pokémon powers up moves. - Stonjourner
Mimicry: Changes the Pokémon’s type depending on the terrain. - Galarian Stunfisk
Screen Cleaner: When the Pokémon enters a battle, the effects of Light Screen, Reflect, and Aurora Veil are nullified for both opposing and ally Pokémon. - Mr Rime
Steely Spirit: Powers up ally Pokémon’s Steel-type moves. - Purrserker
Perish Body: When hit by a move that makes direct contact, the Pokémon and the attacker will faint after three turns unless they switch out of battle. - Galarian Corsola/Cursola
Wandering Spirit: The Pokémon exchanges Abilities with a Pokémon that hits it with a move that makes direct contact. - Runerigus
Gorilla Tactics: Boosts the Pokémon’s Attack stat but only allows the use of the first selected move. - Galarian Darmanitan
Neutralizing Gas: If the Pokémon with Neutralizing Gas is in the battle, the effects of all Pokémon’s Abilities will be nullified or will not be triggered. - Galarian Weezing
Pastel Veil: Protects the Pokémon and its ally Pokémon from being poisoned. - Galarian Ponyta Line
Hunger Switch: The Pokémon changes its form, alternating between its Full Belly Mode and Hangry Mode after the end of each turn. - Morpeko

New Moves

Double Iron Bash: The user rotates, centering the hex nut in its chest, and then strikes with its arms twice in a row. This may also make the target flinch.
Snipe Shot: The user ignores the effects of opposing Pokémon’s moves and Abilities that draw in moves, allowing this move to hit the chosen target.
Jaw Lock: This move prevents the user and the target from switching out until either of them faints. The effect goes away if either of the Pokémon leaves the field.
Stuff Cheeks: The user eats its held Berry, then sharply raises its Defense stat.
No Retreat: This move raises all the user’s stats but prevents the user from switching out or fleeing.
Tar Shot: The user pours sticky tar over the target, lowering the target’s Speed stat. The target becomes weaker to Fire-type moves.
Magic Powder: The user scatters a cloud of magic powder that changes the target to Psychic type.
Dragon Darts: The user attacks twice using Dreepy. If there are two targets, this move hits each target once.
Teatime: The user has teatime with all the Pokémon in the battle. Each Pokémon eats its held Berry.
Octolock: The user locks the target in and prevents it from fleeing. This move also lowers the target’s Defense and Sp. Def every turn.
Bolt Beak: The user stabs the target with its electrified beak. If the user attacks before the target, the power of this move is doubled.
Fishious Rend: The user rends the target with its hard gills. If the user attacks before the target, the power of this move is doubled.
Court Change: With its mysterious power, the user swaps the effects on either side of the field.
Clangorous Soul: The user raises all its stats by using some of its HP.
Body Press: The user attacks by slamming its body into the target. The higher the user’s Defense, the more damage it can inflict on the target.
Decorate: The user sharply raises the target’s Attack and Sp. Atk stats by decorating the target.
Drum Beating: The user plays its drum, controlling the drum’s roots to attack the target. This also lowers the target’s Speed stat.
Snap Trap: The user snares the target in a snap trap for four to five turns.
Pyro Ball: The user attacks by igniting a small stone and launching it as a fiery ball at the target. This may also leave the target with a burn.
Aura Wheel: Morpeko attacks and raises its Speed with the energy stored in its cheeks. This move’s type changes depending on the user’s form.
Breaking Swipe: The user swings its tough tail wildly and attacks opposing Pokémon. This also lowers their Attack stats.
Overdrive: The user attacks opposing Pokémon by twanging a guitar or bass guitar, causing a huge echo and strong vibration.
Apple Acid: The user attacks the target with an acidic liquid created from tart apples. This also lowers the target’s Sp. Def stat.
Grav Apple: The user inflicts damage by dropping an apple from high above. This also lowers the target’s Defense stat.
Spirit Break: The user attacks the target with so much force that it could break the target’s spirit. This also lowers the target’s Sp. Atk stat.
Strange Steam: The user attacks the target by emitting steam. This may also confuse the target.
Life Dew: The user scatters mysterious water around and restores the HP of itself and its ally Pokémon in the battle.
Obstruct: This move enables the user to protect itself from all attacks. Its chance of failing rises if it is used in succession. Direct contact harshly lowers the attacker’s Defense stat.
False Surrender: The user pretends to bow its head, but then it stabs the target with its disheveled hair. This attack never misses.
Meteor Assault: The user attacks wildly with its thick leek. The user can’t move on the next turn, because the force of this move makes it stagger.
Steel Beam: The user fires a beam of steel that it collected from its entire body. This also damages the user.

 

[Apostic]

Hi, all. Thought I'd post about the best BSD combo I've encountered so far. I'm using this in my own games, but wanted to invite discussion to see how everyone would try to counter this common pairing. The pair I'm talking about is, of course, Rhyperior/Dusclops.

Rhyperior @ Weakness Policy
Ability: Solid Rock
EVs: 188 HP / 252 Atk / 68 SpD
IVs: 0 Spe
Brave Nature
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
- Fire Punch
- Protect

Dusclops @ Eviolite
Ability: Frisk
EVs: 252 HP / 96 Def / 160 SpD
IVs: 0 Spe
Relaxed Nature
- Trick Room
- Ally Switch
- Bulldoze
- Night Shade

Trick room obviously allows Rhyperior to move before many faster mons who have potentially damaging moves. The Solid Rock ability with Weakness Policy, and the added HP pool of Dynamax, make Rhyperior so deadly it's hard to describe. The turn after trick room, dusclops will move before Rhyperior, making bulldoze a fantastic way to pop the Weakness Policy. Biggest weakness to the team is if Dusclops gets taunted early, and can't drop Trick Room. If you see a taunt lead on the enemy team(mainly Grimmsnarl) you can adjust your lead accordingly.

How would you guys deal with this pair? What is the best theorycrafting to break this BOSS of a rhyperior?

 

[Iura]

Hi, all. Thought I'd post about the best BSD combo I've encountered so far. I'm using this in my own games, but wanted to invite discussion to see how everyone would try to counter this common pairing. The pair I'm talking about is, of course, Rhyperior/Dusclops.

Rhyperior @ Weakness Policy
Ability: Solid Rock
EVs: 188 HP / 252 Atk / 68 SpD
IVs: 0 Spe
Brave Nature
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
- Fire Punch
- Protect

Dusclops @ Eviolite
Ability: Frisk
EVs: 252 HP / 96 Def / 160 SpD
IVs: 0 Spe
Relaxed Nature
- Trick Room
- Ally Switch
- Bulldoze
- Night Shade

Trick room obviously allows Rhyperior to move before many faster mons who have potentially damaging moves. The Solid Rock ability with Weakness Policy, and the added HP pool of Dynamax, make Rhyperior so deadly it's hard to describe. The turn after trick room, dusclops will move before Rhyperior, making bulldoze a fantastic way to pop the Weakness Policy. Biggest weakness to the team is if Dusclops gets taunted early, and can't drop Trick Room. If you see a taunt lead on the enemy team(mainly Grimmsnarl) you can adjust your lead accordingly.

How would you guys deal with this pair? What is the best theorycrafting to break this BOSS of a rhyperior?

There are actually a ton of ways to tackle this, but they're usually team dependent and I don't mind this for most teams I play. Here's some more stock standard stuff (mostly) for more general cases. Nothing super special, just seeing if I can add to the conversation.

Chandelure

Chandelure @ Focus Sash
Ability: Flash Fire
Level: 50
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Heat Wave
- Shadow Ball
- Imprison
- Trick Room

The most common Imprison TR mon, easy way to shut down TR for a bit and cause some issues for those kind of teams. Not really much to say other than be careful about getting 2HKO'd the first turn if they know what you're doing.

Jellicent

Jellicent @ Room Service
Ability: Water Absorb
Level: 50
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 5 Spe
- Water Spout
- Shadow Ball
- Strength Sap
- Trick Room

Jellicent is a fairly normal thing to see these days (Weakness Policy or Room Service), underspeeds Rhyperior under TR and outspeeds out of it due to Room Service and can heal itself with Strength Sap on Rhyperior, while being able to Spout it for major damage, very good option.

Dracovish

Dracovish @ Iron Ball
Ability: Strong Jaw
Level: 50
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Fishious Rend
- Rock Slide
- Psychic Fangs
- Protect

Dracovish (honestly just use Iron Ball Dhelmise, it's better) is some funny stuff cause it can just straight one shot Dmax Rhyperior and underspeeds with Iron Ball. Not much to say, it's Vish lol.

 

[RalphThePyro]

I'm trying my hardest to make master rank, but I can't even seem to break out of Poke Ball Rank! Attached is my team (no sense in making it public since it is 2W 5L right now.)

I can provide appropriate EV spreads upon request. Please help...

 

[marilli]

I'm trying my hardest to make master rank, but I can't even seem to break out of Poke Ball Rank! Attached is my team (no sense in making it public since it is 2W 5L right now.)

I can provide appropriate EV spreads upon request. Please help...

Welcome to smogon.

What I will say is that while your team has a lot of weird "quirks" to say the least (Magical Leaf on Hatterene? Weakness Policy on Cramorant instead of Lapras? Red Card? 1 Room setter with no Fake Out countermeasures? 0 protect? No Fake Out on Toxicroak?) it shouldn't be so bad you are unable to get out of Poke Ball.

I hesitate calling any team or player "bad" straightaway but if you think you are inexperienced I heavily recommend using a pre-made team, some of which can be seen here: https://victoryroadvgc.com/pokemon-sword-shield-rental-vgc-teams/. Not that you have to stick with them forever, playing with theses teams should teach you some fundamental basics about the game. This includes information on what are commonly used Pokemon, how people use them usually, what a standard team generally has in store for these prominent threats, etc.) that provide you with transferrable skill that helps you build your new team and let you have easier time predicting what they may do to advance their own position.

If you are just trying to get some small fixes to your team, I would definitely suggest Weakness Policy on your Lapras instead, remove Rest for a better move like Protect or Thunderbolt, use Fake Out on Toxicroak, and use Mystical Fire on Hatterene. All the other flaws with the team are still there but these are some quick bandaid fixes that will immediately improve your team. Make sure your Toxicroak is fast enough to Fake Out common opposing Fake Out users like Incineroar (don't use min speed Toxicroak.)

Good luck!

 

[RalphThePyro]

Welcome to smogon.

What I will say is that while your team has a lot of weird "quirks" to say the least (Magical Leaf on Hatterene? Weakness Policy on Cramorant instead of Lapras? Red Card? 1 Room setter with no Fake Out countermeasures? 0 protect? No Fake Out on Toxicroak?) it shouldn't be so bad you are unable to get out of Poke Ball.

I hesitate calling any team or player "bad" straightaway but if you think you are inexperienced I heavily recommend using a pre-made team, some of which can be seen here: https://victoryroadvgc.com/pokemon-sword-shield-rental-vgc-teams/. Not that you have to stick with them forever, playing with theses teams should teach you some fundamental basics about the game. This includes information on what are commonly used Pokemon, how people use them usually, what a standard team generally has in store for these prominent threats, etc.) that provide you with transferrable skill that helps you build your new team and let you have easier time predicting what they may do to advance their own position.

Good luck!

Yeah. I am pretty inexperienced. I am after trying to make Cramorant work on a Doubles team. Something tells me that I am going to have to drop Cramorant all together. Thanks for the link and I will rethink my items a bit! Maybe even ready up a Priority Pokemon. My head is swimming with ideas, but I appreciate the input!

 

[Kazumi917]

I recently restarted playing pokemon sword, my last pokemon game being Pokemon stadium 2 (yeah been a while lol). I bought sword and shield when they released and just finished the story and kinda called it quits. But i recently got hospitalized and was bored and well at first i decided to make perfect pokemons and such. Then i just read more and more, loved the idea of doubles and well read up a shit load about competitive pokemon for the last two months, decided to make a team for myself (which i had to edit after i actually tasted the series 6 meta and see that some of my original picks were wrong and being a card games player (mtg, l5r, hs.) I just tailored my team to what i faced in the cusual and attempt to play ranked first. Im currently #126 in master ball, the final team only lost once so far out of the 13 games it took to get it there.

For disclaimer, the only idea i had when i first started to plan my team to play competitive pokemon. I wanted to make a trick room team (i like the idea its like being in a card game and having a card that makes you play two turns in row, which is fucking massive.) And i knew from all i read Dusclops was a must being immunes to fake out. I felt like doing a small write up of my ideas and how i viewed how i made the team, perhaps some new players that did like me and just read the stuff but never participate can get an interesting read up and make their own team. Also if anybody has any further advice or their own trick room ideas, id like to hear them. Anyway first heres the final team(if it was perfect, the only one got made in game with actual no good attack and no good speed IV is hatterene):

Now im gona talk about what i did before this team and what i discovered where mistake.
#1 I didnt trust the dusclops enough i had a slowbro to set up trick room back up as well, incase of taunt, but turns out people with fake out out numbers taunt users 10 to 1 lol. At least in my small run. Hatterene had her own trick room and life orb, both pointless things and i lost for it too. I learned the hard way that Trick room is slow pokemon, but you want to play fast. My Hatterene did not have the time to set her own trick room in doubles, but she shouldnt have to.

#2 You cant waste your first turn, just because dusclops is gona trick room, your sweeper should be already going for a max damage opporunity. Because your sweeper gets two turn in row to attack, you need to do enough damage in those two first turns, the second time your oppenent pokemons gets to play, they are now in a position to lose or already lost.

# squishy trick room pokemon is not good. I originaly had butterfree and a slowbro. Slowbro is fairly tanky, but the fact i never face taunts and that fake out constantly ruined him and i just put him on my shit list lol. Butterfree is just paper, you cant be made of paper because you might get hit first turn uncontested.

#3 My sweepers all follow the same logic in their build and Who i picked as Max Sweepers for my team, is winning at the loading screen as i call it. They had to have good coverage and even if hit by a super effective hit, they cannot be one hit KO. Infact if i can make them the most tanky possible without nerfing their damage too much i did. For example, my hatterene has assault vest, She will kill a gmax lapras even if she has no super effective against lapras. A lot of the hard hitting physical Sweeper in series 6 urshifu and Dragozolt will get one shot by Gmax Smite right off, unless they have focus stash, which Dusclops will reveal and also, doesent really matter in the end they have one hp and dusclops goes first next turn, Gmax Smite is never a waste because of the confuse, So all that was left to do is make sure in GMAX, Nothing a Gmax hitting her with physical attack one hits KO her. So i added her some defense. If shes facing a special attack gmax, she can just stand there and be tickled for multiple turns and not even use switch ally mind games.

#4 clean up crew, Once Dynamax or Gmax is done, they still need to be able to clean, another reason why all my sweepers are slow, tanky, but high attack stats. I mean, Snorlax is my "weakest damage dealer", doesent play too bad.

Now im gona go over the final pokemons:

First i have two "supports" Dusclops and Amoonguss. Both very powerful. First turn, youll always want dusclops, but if you see the enemy team is not gona blow over in a handful of turns, consider Bringing Amoonguss too to clean the clean up duty after your Gmax trick room mayhem. If you see that their team is something like Sun and mostly soft pokemons, just bring 3 sweepers and Dusclops. Theres not much to type about these, they are fairly standard, Dusclops is your trick room, nothing can one shot him and once he gets the trick room off, next turn he goes first to clean up or heal back up with share pain and who ever still has max HP. He also will warn you about items like room service and iron ball being absolutly indispensable if you need to adjust. Amoonguss is your healer, decoy and well he often takes one for the team.

Now my 4 sweepers.

-Hatterene i kinda already explained, she just an obvious pick in trick room, great coverage, ruins some of the current top pokemons, urshifu and dragozolt by just blowing them up in one hit in every situation beside focus stash. She has top tier special attack stats, shes not exactly frail, shes ultra slow,her gmax move gmax smite, is very powerfull and she can just setup her own psychic terrain during her gmax, cleanup with exapanding force after gmax. Oh and lets not forget Magic Bounce which is absolute madness during a gmax trick room sweep. If Anybody forgets this ability and use anything on her, you probably get a freebie.

-Ryperion: A god damn beast. Sometimes he just cant die, Surprinslying powerful against current power houses like lapras, dragozolt, urshifu. If anything super effective hits you get weakness policy,also nothing in the game can one hit this thing thanks to solid rock. If you ever get in a position to max quake (its super effective or you have no super effective against anything so you cant blow them up or you want to finish off someone that will die anyway, max quake) Youll become so tanky that special pokemon will never take him out. Gets to setup his own sand, also rock moves are always good because flying is a thing that is apparently spammed on so many pokemons. You see a charizard, Lapras, etc. Just get this man in and taunt them with your weaknesses, but if they fall for it, they just helped you win.

-Primarina: Increadible pokemon the typing is just so strong, shes so bulky and while she does not hit as hard as hatterene, but how bulky she is, its still a bit much. She is a rarer Dynmax then Hatterene or Ryperion, because they both use the trick room gimic much better and hit harder. But shes still a clean sweeper if you see sand and fire sun teams. She is also good at cleaning up the remaining stuff. She does not have the coverage the other 3 have, but her typing makes her so strong and survivable, that it was the premium water user for me. Sorry about the screenshot, she has life orb.

-Snorlax: Even with the gen 1 talkinl. He is my weakest link, but at the same time he seems to work failry well in trick room. Sadly his gmax move was not useful to me, but his gmax form is cool so why not lol. Part of him is that i needed max steel move on my team and he has it and outside of gmax, he can take MANY hits. He has good coverage, does good damage, takes damage. The pokemon most likely that i could replace, but he worked so far.


Sorry if this is a long read, english is not my first language but i tried to make sure it was readable. I will try other attemps to make more double teams or single teams in the future.

 

[BigDaddyPhatSack]

If anybody's looking to try out a "meme" team that I "perfected" to get me into the Doubles Master Ball Tier (and keep winning within in it so far), I've posted an explanation in the SS Other Teams Forum. It revolves around Sneasel, Cobalion, and Coalossal. Make any changes ya like and have fun! https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/series-6-sneasel-master-ball-team.3670166/

 

[sumwun]

Could anyone explain the process of distributing EVs? Is there any rule or theory that can determine the optimal balance for a Pokemon? Because I don't want to try every single spread or else it would be too tedious.

 

[marilli]

Could anyone explain the process of distributing EVs? Is there any rule or theory that can determine the optimal balance for a Pokemon? Because I don't want to try every single spread or else it would be too tedious.

there's no such thing as 'optimal EVs' in a vacuum. You have to prioritize between different perks and there is often no singular right answer, and even if there is, it often depends on your team: you want to outspeed certain metagame threats. Maybe you want to underspeed a partner Pokemon. You might want to survive hits from a Pokemon that gives your team troubles, or guarantee a KO on such a Pokemon.

You generally want to start off with a basic 252-252 spread, and maybe adjust your speed EVs from there to hit a speed benchmark, and adjust your HP stats (say if you're going for a Belly Drum you might want your HP divisible by 2 to eat your berry right away, that type of thing) - and adjust your EVs to fit your team. This is the most important part - and no one else is going to put time in your teambuilding for you to pinpoint your most dangerous matchups and ways to play out it for you. You need to be able to do this yourself.

Often you can just steal a spread, often one that EVs to live hits from common metagame threats, so it's going to be useful on a wide range of teams. But playing around threats can depend much on your team, so you might end up EVing for an attack you actually rarely take if you mindlessly copy spreads, so it's always best to use those stolen spreads as a baseline, and ask what your team needs.

As for numerical EV optimizations you generally want to boost your high stats with nature and your low stats with EVs if you can help it. If you're unsure just put your spread in the teambuilder with a different nature just to make sure. You also want to generally prioritize HP EVs over defensive EVs, but there are 2 main exceptions. First, is on things like Snorlax and Blissey that has too much HP already - EVing these Pokemon is generally pretty tough and it's not uncommon to see experienced players mis-EV these Pokemon. Second, is to squeeze out as much EVs as possible for other purposes. Generally EVing to live a hit with HP is going to be more generally efficient, but mixing in a few defensive EVs can minimize the amount of EVs spent to live the specific hit, which can be important if you're also trying to hit a specific speed benchmark or damage benchmark you can't afford to lose.

Hope this helps.