A Few Things to Consider when Planning to Maximize HP on a Select Group of Pokemon

[Jibaku]

So we should never use 252 HP on a Defensive Pokemon?

We've never said anything as such.

I stated that 252 HP may not always be the best idea on some Pokemon as it ends up being worse than it it was one point lower. I'm talking about when you get no gain in Leftovers recovery, yet increased Stealth Rock/burn/seed/whatever damage.

For example
344 (base 70's max HP) /8 = 43
344 / 16 = 21 (rounded down)
(21 * 2) - 43 = -1

Now that's a pointless waste of EVs no?

That and if you should not be using a Leftovers number and is not holding Leftovers (or get Lefties cancelled out by weather).

Example:
384 HP (Max) Zapdos in a sandstorm
Leftovers get cancelled by Sandstorm
384 / 16 = 24
384 / 8 = 48
384 / 4 = 96

So in a case where your opponent manages to predict your Zappy switch in three times and forces it out each time while Stealth Rock and Sandstorm are active, you'd have a dead Zapdos the next time you swap it in. However, going one point lower in HP still maintains that same defensive ability, and at the same time Zapdos wouldn't die the fourth time it switches in. Yes, Sandstorm will kill Zappy, but that's at the end of the turn, and you could take a hit from the opponent on that turn and die as a suicide bait. It's better than having the opponent hit no target, because negative side effects happen when they actually hit a Pokemon (whether it may be LO recoil, Draco Meteor, Close Combat, or even Pressure in extremely rare situations can hurt the opponent a bit). And also there's a chance that you can bring Zapdos in safely after your opponent kills something on your team, and Roost off the damage.

tl; dr: 383 HP > 384 HP on Zapdos in Sandstorm

Actually let me restate something: Don't go for Leftovers numbers in general (looks at Vaporeon analysis), because their benefits are often canceled and there are more things that indirectly hurt you.

These are simple things that are easily overlooked that give a very slight benefit (or more depending on your situation, such as bringing CB Scizor on an HP Fireless Celebi's Leech Seed) at virtually no loss.

 

[Stallion]

A bit late to it but let me say great thread.

I already make sure all my pokemon have an odd HP number, so it didn't really impact me but good on you for raising awareness for those who just threw EV's wherever without thinking abou tit.

 

[paramylodon]

I often go for a number divisible by 16 on pokemon with leftovers. Do you think this is bad for those pokemon not immune to sandstorm?
Sandstorm would cancel out the extra recovery, and then I'd have a stealth rock number as well.

 

[supermarth64]

I often go for a number divisible by 16 on pokemon with leftovers. Do you think this is bad for those pokemon not immune to sandstorm?
Sandstorm would cancel out the extra recovery, and then I'd have a stealth rock number as well.

Leftover numbers are overrated. You generally want to be 1 over or 1 under, depending on if it's maxed or not.

Also, LO numbers are overrated also.

 

[General Tso]

Well I'm going to sleep, so I'll have to read this tomorrow, but the thread looks good so far. You guys should sticky this or put it into an article. People will notice it more if it's on the site or in the Contributions section.

 

[X-Act]

I just want to say that the implications of this thread spawned an article that should be included in the first issue of The Smog.

 

[Jibaku]

I often go for a number divisible by 16 on pokemon with leftovers. Do you think this is bad for those pokemon not immune to sandstorm?
Sandstorm would cancel out the extra recovery, and then I'd have a stealth rock number as well.

Yes, it is bad, however...

It can be tough to decide when you don't have Sandstorm in your team. For instance, you have a Rotom. Do you want 304 HP or 303 HP? With 304 HP, you gain maximum Leftovers recovery which will come in handy when Sandstorm is absent, whereas if you do decide to go for 303 HP, you lose more HP to Stealth Rock than two Leftovers can heal. Do you prepare this EV setting based on your own team, or do you base this setting on the possibility of Sandstorm? Perhaps the outcome wouldn't matter much either way, but it's something to think about.

 

[paramylodon]

If I do not have sandstorm on my team it then sounds like it would be better to have rotom with the full 252 evs, as stealth rock is virtually always out, while sandstorm (tyranitar+hippowdon usage, minus the times they're both used) is much less frequent.
Of course, if my team contains hippo/t-tar, then that makes thinking much easier.

Supermath, one under sounds bad if that means two turns of leftovers recovery fails to restore all the hp lost by stealth rock (meaning you've now lost 1 hp), as describedby Jibaku.

 

[Amphetamines]

Does Metagross in hail count for this? It's total HP = 364.

 

[Jibaku]

Huge revamp on the first page. As I was writing this I was quite surprised with some things I found.

 

[supermarth64]

Supermath, one under sounds bad if that means two turns of leftovers recovery fails to restore all the hp lost by stealth rock (meaning you've now lost 1 hp), as describedby Jibaku.

First of all, it's supermarth, like Marth from FE.

Second of all, it depends on if you're maxing out the HP EVs or not. When I said 1 under, I meant if it was SR weak and you maxed out the HP EVs. When I said 1 over, I meant if HP wasn't maxed out, so you end up getting 1 more switch in anyway.

And w/e Jibaku said about sandstorm/hail/if your team needs the full HP EVs if they're defensive.

 

[Flashstorm1]

On the issue of max Leftovers numbers, I'm going to have to agree with Jibaku that it really depends on the situations your Pokémon are likely to encounter. For example, if your team has a way to prevent Stealth Rock through either Taunt or Rapid Spin, then running max Leftovers recovery is obviously the best option. On the note of Rotom-a, I think it would be best to run max Leftovers numbers rather than run 303 HP, since Rotom-a is not one of those Pokémon that are forced to switch out almost immediately as soon as a counter comes in (obviously negating HP recovery as the damage output from Stealth Rock will outweight the recovery input from Leftovers), as compared to Lucario who has to switch out 99.9% of the time if something like Zapdos comes in.*

*Yes, this is a poor example on my part, but it gets the idea I wanted to share across.

Another important issue is weather damage, and you have already shared most of the points that I agree with as well. Out of the Pokémon you listed, the only one that would be greatly affected by this topic is Rotom/Rotom-a, as others have forms of recovery, are immune to Sandstorm/Hail, and/or resist Stealth Rock. I've already stated that Rotom-a should run max HP when weather is absent, but if weather damage is present, max HP should be avoided. Since Rotom-a will nearly always work in the form of a wall when running Leftovers, it would most likely be preferable to have more oppurtunities to switch in since Rotom-a has a specific role in countering Pokémon.

Also, on a side note: If Spikes were present on the field, would its damage output be equal to that of a layer of Stealth Rock? Although Spikes are not as common as the aforementioned Stealth Rock, it might be useful to bring up the issue as needed.

 

[mien]

I use 248 / 252 / 8 Scizor for this exact reason ^_^ That and the occasional "outspeed other scizors" that might happen maybe someday.

A common mistake as unlike Garchomp you dont gain any advantage by trying to win speedties

When it comes to a battle Scizor vs Scizor the slower one always wins thanks to the Def drop in superpower. Second if both switch out by using U-turn the slower one will take the resisted damage while the pokemon the faster one switches into will have to take the SR+U-turn combination.

In generall it is better to have no speed at all on Scizor because´losing´ the speedtie puts you in an advantage

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

Not just Superpower. If we both have Scizor out, and we both use U-turn, the slower person has won. Why?

First, Scizor resists Bug and has plenty of defense. This means the slower Scizor gets to soak the U-turn's damage.

Second, you have to bring something into an impending attack if you U-turn and I stay in. Meanwhile, I get to bring something in for free that completely counters whatever you brought in.

Finally, if you Superpower and then I U-turn, then I not only get to hit you with a U-turn on your -1 defense (a net damage gain of about 50%, since your defense is 2/3 of its normal value), but I also get to bring in whatever I want for free on your -1/-1 Scizor, which is a really bad situation to be in.

Long story short, when it comes to Scizor vs. Scizor, the slowest one will "win" 95% of the time.

 

[obi]

The reason that it's best to have HP and the defensive stat closest to each other is simple.

The raw HP you lose is completely irrelevant in terms of taking damage, what matters is the %. Blissey losing 50% of it's HP is just as big of a blow as Shuckle losing half of it's HP, while 300 HP lost on Blissey is less than half, compared to a OHKO on Shuckle.

This means that to find overall tankiness, you do HP * Def. If both of them are equal, we can define your tankiness as such:

tankiness = x^2

where x = the HP / defensive stat. To increase HP by 1, you have to drop Def by 1, and vice versa, because EVs are limited and work the same on both stats (ignoring natures for a moment here, although they don't really change things in most cases). So if the stats are equal at 300 HP and Defense, you can get combinations like 250 HP / 350 Def. In other words, the amount each stat varies from this middle point will be equal (50 above for one, 50 below for the other). You can then define tankiness as such:

tankiness = (x+a) * (x-a)

Where x is still that middle value where HP = Def, (x+a) = HP, and (x-a) = Def. If you multiply this out (simple binomial multiplication), you get

tankiness = x^2 - a^2

This is of course largest when a = 0, because a^2 is always positive, and you want to subtract as little as possible to maximize your tankiness (in other words, a = 0, so HP = Def).

 

[yysame]

glad i read this, some useful things i nvr thought of

 

[BaldWombat]

Ok, what about those pokemon who are weak to Stealth Rock and will be running leftovers for walling purposes. Let's look at Torkoal, a friend wants me to make one for him.

Max HP - 344
Max Def - 416

Now at max, you will be losing 86 HP on every switch in and you will only be gaining 21 HP from lefties every turn. Would it be better to run 232 HP EVs, which leaves you with 339 HP? This would bring the Stealth Rock damage down to 84 HP on every switch while still giving 21 HP recovery with lefties every turn. Or do those 5 HP drastically hamper his ability to wall hits? Without a reliable recovery move this could make a big difference.

 

[Jibaku]

Hmmm
We'll say Torkoal planned to swap in 5 times

Let's start from 343 HP (since 344 is bad)
343-85+21-85+21-85+21-85+21-85 = 2 + 21 = 23

Now 339 HP
343-84+21-84+21-84+21-84+21-84 = 3+21 = 24

By the 4th turn Torkoal swaps in, 339 HP Torkoal = 343 HP Torkoal

339 HP Torkoal saves you a number of points.

However, Torkoal learns Rapid Spin...

I'd stick with 343 HP for this one, since chances are you'll remove the rocks by two switch ins. For non Spin purposes, though, 339 HP is probably best

 

[BaldWombat]

I know that Torkoal can spin, and and the one I make for him will be able to do that. There isn't a big difference in HP numbers there but what I guess I wanted to know was what percent less bulky is the poke in this scenario by losing 5 HP? Only a small percentage difference won't affect his bulkiness much but could affect his attack more. That is more or less what I was getting at with the question.

 

[Jibaku]

Torkoal is overall 1.46% less bulky with 5 less HP. Assuming you've placed only 4 EVs in Attack before this came into calculation, Torkoal has 2.4% more attack.

 

[VKCA]

thanks for the info, ive been wondering if their was something like this for a while.

 

[iKitsune]

Shouldnt this kind of useful thing be on site. Or added to a more general guide on "how to use EVs effectively the dos and donts" . Possible suggestion for the "box".

Currently i dont believe there is this guide on site and it would definitely help those when coming up with optimum EV spreads.

 

[alex12345]

Though all of this seems effective when switching into stealth rock over and over, are there any attacks that would leave, say scizor, with 1 hp if you go with 252evs?

I know this would happen very rarely, but how often are you going to switch into rocks that many times?

 

[Kingdrom]

Though all of this seems effective when switching into stealth rock over and over, are there any attacks that would leave, say scizor, with 1 hp if you go with 252evs?

I know this would happen very rarely, but how often are you going to switch into rocks that many times?

If 252 Hp Scizor switches into SR once, it has the exact same Hp as 248 HP Scizor. After that, the 248 HP Scizor has more health on switch-ins.

Attacks do a set amount of damage based on your defense stats. Hp doesn't make attacks do less damage, but it correlates to a lesser percentage of the HP. 252 Hp Scizor would take hits with the same damage as 248 Hp Scizor (even if you don't put the extra 4 Ev's into a defense), just a lower percentage of max hp. Since you have the same hp or a couple points less on 252 HP Scizor, depending on how often you've switched into SR, you would end up with a higher (or the same) Hp number on 248 Hp Scizor after taking an attack in comparison to 252 Hp Scizor.

Switching into SR twice is all it needs for 248 Hp Scizor to become superior.