Let's Play! A Hater's Tour through Ultra Moon!

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Since I don't wanna play this game ever again, I'mma knock out two birds with one stone. :mehowth:

Running an Exp. Share test to see if this game really was balanced around it.

Rules are simple, no wild grinding, and I'm running every trainer's pockets. Exp. Share on at all times.

Catch the action live at the OI Discord in like, 5 minutes. :swole:
 
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Totem Raticate down, Makuhita grew to Lv. 15 after it.

I do have some stuff to say about this game so far, but it's late and I'm too tired to do it right now.

Some key points though.

  • Totem Raticate is Lv. 12. I was predictably overleveled. It's not bad yet, but it ain't a good look.
  • Mime Jr. and Magnemite are Med. Fast Exp. Group mons. These are notoriously slow to level, despite the group's name.
  • I haven't had the chance to use Litten after getting Mime Jr. AT ALL since it's so overleveled compared to the rest. I barely used it at the school too.
  • On that note, I barely used Makuhita. Too many Psychic and Flying trainers, that's certainly an odd design choice since you are supposed to use a Fighting-type in the next dungeon. Oh well.
  • Holy shit the cutscenes. :row:
 
Hala down.
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So, here's the deal. Ultra Moon is tough.

Usually, I'd actually enjoy that, but there's a massive problem. It's not that it's tough on a strategical sense, you just have to deal with a bunch of mons with inflated stats.

For example, that Ace Trainer with a Slowpoke and a Butterfree on Route 3 is tough. Is it because he got a tanky mon for that point of the game and a Roost Butterfree so you can't just click an SE move and win instantly?

No, he's tough because Silver Wind deals 60~65% to a Lv. 16 Litten, so you gotta make sure you kill it first. Mind you, I wasn't exactly supposed to have that, but it's not that far out of reality because he is the last R3 trainer.

Same thing with Hala. There's only so much you can strategize when he throws a Revenge Machop that will straight up OHKO most of your mons if you can't OHKO it first or it goes for Focus Energy. Makuhita was certainly not doing that. Matter of fact, here's how much damage it did when I was NOT attacking it.

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Now, you may have noticed that I did have a Mr. Mime on the first pic. That's because friendship evos are a mistake :totodiLUL:

Mime utterly trounces Hala. It's really not even close. To put it in perspective, he didn't even use his Z-Move with Crabrawler because there was no point. Filter is blessed since it doesn't have 4x weaknesses too, so even with its low defense, it all worked out.

So yeah, the difficulty of USUM is real, but it's unfortunately really boring. Pokémon is one of the most strategic RPGs out there, so having a game that mostly relies on weird, uneven boss design, and raw stat sticks to increase difficulty is like playing a bad romhack. What it does is forcing players to mindless grinding or the good old...
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Now, for the rest of the game... The camera is A W F U L :row:

It's actually bewildering how often you can't see where you're going AT ALL. If this region wasn't built like a Mushroom Cup Mario Kart track, this game would be straight up unplayable.

They kinda tried a bit with the route design, but the camera completely wastes it.

The mon selection honestly feels haphazard. It almost feels like there's no cohesion when it comes to wild mon selection, but at the same time, looking at the school and Hau'oli encounter tables, you do find a lot of mons that are supposed to be near cities.

Shame that Hau'oli City being the biggest city in Alola is just depressing.

In every other region in the game, getting to the biggest city is a milestone. You get to actually use your money to buff up your team in various ways because of the big marts, and they're usually mid-game, so you just get that feeling of making it out of the mud.

In Hau'oli, you just sink deeper. You go from a ridiculous amount of cutscenes, to a ridiculous amount of pointless cutscenes. You get the bare minimum of customization and... that's about it. There's not a lot to do there. You can't even buy TMs.

As far as I remember though, Memelele is the worst part of aLOLa, so I can at least look forward to getting outta there.
 

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Y'know what? I wasn't originally gonna engage with this but our POVs on this game are so drastically, diametrically opposed that I wanna have some fun with it. Keep playing and I'll respond to whatever points you have. This is the Volt V. Dramps Alola Debate Thread now, or at least until one of us sufficiently loses interest.

First off, regarding the whole EXP Share thing: I know this thread exists in response to a comment ant4456 made that USUM is adequately balanced around it being always on. I haven't ever tried this myself and likely never will, but for posterity I will re-iterate my position that even if it isn't it's not a knock against USUM or any other 3DS game for that matter because you can just shut it off. SWSH onward is a whole different ballgame since that option is gone, if it's too easy to overlevel in those games it's a failure of design. This isn't a retort to you, I know you're trying to prove a point, just laying it out there.

So, here's the deal. Ultra Moon is tough.

rambling about poorly designed difficulty
To start on a nitpicky note:

Lvl 14 252+ SpA Butterfree Silver Wind vs. Lvl 16 0 HP 0 IVs / 0- SpD 0 IVs Litten: 17-21 (42.5 - 52.5%) -- 9.4% chance to 2HKO

You're gonna have to explain to me under what circumstances you got that Silver Wind damage roll. If it was off a crit, buff or debuff then I can't really abide by it as evidence of boss damage being overtuned, especially in the context of an optional encounter.

As for Hala, his team isn't just big stat sponges mindlessly dishing out hits and nothing else. All of them have a little synergy within their movesets: Machop is designed around crit-fishing, Makuhita's goal is to steal turns from you via Fake Out and Sand-Attack misses, and Crabrawler aims to stack debuffs and buffs alike, even having Pursuit to try and punish switching off the Leers. It's not insanely complex but it shouldn't be, this is the first major boss trainer of the game. It's also not if as you are bereft of options to tackle Fighting types, there's plenty on Melemele besides Mr. Mime, which I'll get to in a minute. By the way, I took a quick look at the USUM in-game tier list and couldn't help but notice Mime Jr. is in D tier. Unless some major discoveries have been made since that placement was put down it seems like trivializing Hala is pretty much where it peaks? That seems like a pretty obvious and kinda cool tradeoff to me, functioning almost like a Psychic Butterfree.

Looking at the game more broadly there actually is one boss I'd agree is too much, and that's Totem Alolan Marowak. I'm good with Ultra Necrozma for the vibes and having a lot more options by that point in the game, but Alolawak is just kind of nonsense lmao.
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Absolutely EVIL to throw at you in the early 20s. Whitney's Miltank who? You need Wishiwashi or Araquanid or else you just get folded.
Now, for the rest of the game... The camera is A W F U L :row:

It's actually bewildering how often you can't see where you're going AT ALL. If this region wasn't built like a Mushroom Cup Mario Kart track, this game would be straight up unplayable.

They kinda tried a bit with the route design, but the camera completely wastes it.
Well, this is a new one. If we're operating by the commonly accepted definition of bad camera work (i.e. "key things are obscured from sight causing you to miss them or stumble into them on accident") then I cannot say I've ever had any problem with the Alola games on this front whatsoever. I suppose it could be a case of me memorizing everything from half a dozen collective SM/USUM replays but 1) my memory of videogame areas isn't that good and 2) I cannot recall struggling with the camera on my first Sun playthrough at all. I guess I can see the long vertical stretch on Route 2 being somewhat problematic if I try to look at it through your eyes? I'd like some more specific examples, please.
The mon selection honestly feels haphazard. It almost feels like there's no cohesion when it comes to wild mon selection, but at the same time, looking at the school and Hau'oli encounter tables, you do find a lot of mons that are supposed to be near cities.
And here we have the first position I truly disagree on vehemently. Melemele's Pokemon selection is absolutely ace, man! It would've been so easy to fall into the trap of the first island in gameplay order being the dumping ground for the typical early route tripe with the worldbuilding implications being cast aside, but by god this is Alola and we're BUILT DIFFERENT. Alolan Grimer, Inkay, Gastly, Sableye, Cutiefly, Rockruff, Magnemite, Zorua, Munchlax, Makuhita and more! We even got a handful of Dragon and Ice types slid in! It would be so much more immersion-breaking if the Melemele species all just so happened to be the usual Route 1 fodder, but instead we get a selection as robust as any other island with type and design variety galore. And it's not like they just dumped the guys in haphazardly, absolutely not. There's so many great environmental details! People know about Mareanie appearing in SOS battles to feed on Corsola, but the same thing also happens with Sableye appearing when you're fighting wild Carbink. One I'm fond of is how on Route 1 you can only find Grubbin in the same grass tiles as Pichu. This is a direct nod to its Pokedex entry mentioning how it hangs out near Electric types to avoid being attacked by bird Pokemon. USUM dex additions are handled with grace, too: There's the obvious like the Flabebe line residing in the floral meadows, but also more clever stuff like Zorua being in the schoolyard, presumably a perfect spot to get up to some Illusion trickery. Over on Ula'ula Minccino was added to the recycling plant grass, doubtlessly to tidy up Grimer and Trubbish's messes.

Now, of course, not every last dex selection choice is a winner. In regards to Melemele:
-Hawlucha is the one USUM addition that very much stands out to me as odd and overtuned. Putting it this early, giving it an in-game trade and putting Brick Break in its proximity... Yeah, that's more than a bit much.
-Yungoos
-Noibat, Vullaby and Rufflet evolve too late to be usable in a playthrough. This isn't really a flavor problem so much as a "Game Freak refusing to retcon evolution methods pre-Legends Arceus" problem, although there is the oddity of Vullaby being a swooping Pokemon.

All in all though, the good easily exceeds the bad.
Shame that Hau'oli City being the biggest city in Alola is just depressing.

In every other region in the game, getting to the biggest city is a milestone. You get to actually use your money to buff up your team in various ways because of the big marts, and they're usually mid-game, so you just get that feeling of making it out of the mud.

In Hau'oli, you just sink deeper. You go from a ridiculous amount of cutscenes, to a ridiculous amount of pointless cutscenes. You get the bare minimum of customization and... that's about it. There's not a lot to do there. You can't even buy TMs.
There's an interesting observation to be made here. After two regions designed in large part around one giant iconic central metropolis, Alola went back to the Hoenn/Sinnoh way of doing things where the gap between the biggest and smallest settlements isn't so pronounced. This makes sense for the region's lowkey summer vacation vibe. At the same time there has since been a development that majorly blunts the impact and utility of Veilstone-style department stores, that being permanent TMs. In general, Alola's content is more spread out and often found in more rural and wild areas of the map, such as Mantine Surf having its own beaches and Poke Pelago being accessed through the menu. That said, it's a bit reductive to say Hau'oli has nothing of game design consequence to offer besides some clothes shopping. There's Pokemon to catch (something you can't say for many other cities in this series), sidequests to do with some decent rewards, an introduction to picture-taking with Rotom, the Battle Buffet as an early-game battle challenge with a potential payout of a Max Revive(!!!) and of course I'd be remiss not to mention Alola Photo Club my beloved.

I will admit though: What really knits it all together for me is the aforementioned vibes, and boy are they immaculate in Hau'oli City. The very way the camera is oriented when you reach it is like you're entering a poster advertising your next vacation destination. It's a quiet, friendly and sunny city, a place where one man's Smeargle can paint all the fence doors while beachgoers relax and chuck Pyukumuku into the sea. And when you visit at night... oh my god, that PIANO DUDE. If Jubilife Village didn't exist, it would be the pinnacle of SOVL.

Alright if I continue this attempt at an analysis will derail into slang-ridden fanboying, so that'll be it for now. Good luck on the rest of your playthrough :P
 
Y'know what? I wasn't originally gonna engage with this but our POVs on this game are so drastically, diametrically opposed that I wanna have some fun with it. Keep playing and I'll respond to whatever points you have. This is the Volt V. Dramps Alola Debate Thread now, or at least until one of us sufficiently loses interest.


First off, regarding the whole EXP Share thing: I know this thread exists in response to a comment ant4456 made that USUM is adequately balanced around it being always on.
That post was the trigger, yes, but it's not personal. I've heard this before, and I've done a run like this before. The main difference is now I'm documenting it, and it's only a 6-mon party. (Last time I had to use 12 to stay on par)


To start on a nitpicky note:

Lvl 14 252+ SpA Butterfree Silver Wind vs. Lvl 16 0 HP 0 IVs / 0- SpD 0 IVs Litten: 17-21 (42.5 - 52.5%) -- 9.4% chance to 2HKO

You're gonna have to explain to me under what circumstances you got that Silver Wind damage roll. If it was off a crit, buff or debuff then I can't really abide by it as evidence of boss damage being overtuned, especially in the context of an optional encounter.
I got screenshots at home. Will edit it in later.

As for Hala, his team isn't just big stat sponges mindlessly dishing out hits and nothing else. All of them have a little synergy within their movesets: Machop is designed around crit-fishing, Makuhita's goal is to steal turns from you via Fake Out and Sand-Attack misses, and Crabrawler aims to stack debuffs and buffs alike, even having Pursuit to try and punish switching off the Leers. It's not insanely complex but it shouldn't be, this is the first major boss trainer of the game.
You see, this is something that I dislike about Alola in general.

Most bosses and totems *do* have strategies. They're also ridiculously overtuned stat-wise, so the strategies don't shine as much as they should.

Machop going for crits would make more sense if it used Karate Chop instead. That's a more appropriate attack for the power level of the game, it's easier to land crits with it, and it's also easier for players to handle it.

Think about it this way. Machop is the *first* mon Hala has. It's tough to have something that can handle 120BP moves without factoring STAB, and that have an increased crit rate at that stage of the game. And then you also need something to facetank a whole Z-Move afterwards.

Does it make for a difficult battle? Yes, and I appreciate that. But it's definitely overtuned and it outshines the strategies Hala use.

By the way, I took a quick look at the USUM in-game tier list and couldn't help but notice Mime Jr. is in D tier. Unless some major discoveries have been made since that placement was put down it seems like trivializing Hala is pretty much where it peaks?
Oh god why :row:

There's Pokemon to catch (something you can't say for many other cities in this series), sidequests to do with some decent rewards, an introduction to picture-taking with Rotom, the Battle Buffet as an early-game battle challenge with a potential payout of a Max Revive(!!!) and of course I'd be remiss not to mention Alola Photo Club my beloved.
Honestly, the mons are an ok argument, the only thing that interested me in the Battle Buffet (and the reason why I'll do it) is that a Cook's Magikarp got Leftovers. Need those. If I can take Marowak's Thick Club (pause), I should be able to get that, right?

The Max Revive is kind of neat but not something that I'd fawn over.

The photos though... Burn them all, Memelele already got too many goddamn cutscenes without having to stop to take a picture of a random Pikachu that I can't even catch. Way to kill the pacing!

I don't mind the existence of these padding gimmicks tho.

Honestly, my biggest problem with this game is that I just don't have fun playing it. :mehowth:
 
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People say I'm crazy when I say USUM bosses are overtuned af.

Water Bubble in Rain is nasty work.


Somehow, the levels are actually almost on par though. There are A LOT of Med. Fast Exp. Group mons in this game, and they suck horrendously at leveling up quickly. Torracat has been pretty much rotting on the bench but it's at Lv. 23. Shame that won't help me at all here.

Edit: It's pretty trivial to beat it with Roto Boost + Light Screen + Mago Berry + Electroweb, but man, it's not satisfying to do that AT ALL.

Also, hol up, did GF actually think kids would do all that? That's CRAZY. :pikuh::smogthink:
 
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Seeing this thread is genuinely making me consider if I should do something similar with Sword & Shield because I would rather watch paint try than play that abomination of a video game :puff:

Okay but in all seriousness, from my own perspective as someone who’s played through (almost) every generation at least once and has some pretty strong opinions no one asked for, these games still frustrate me to this day, though not to the extent that most of Gen 8 does. I’ve always been of the opinion that difficulty doesn’t necessarily equal fun, and the Ultra games are a great example of how not to make a game designed for kids more engaging. I don’t quite know how to explain my thoughts. On paper, the comparison between these and base Alola feels like what Black & White 2’s so-called “Challenge Mode” could have been plus some extra Pokémon and content that, depending on who you ask, might have fit better into a true Alola sequel installment. In practice, these games feel like a New Game Plus with a $40 price tag slapped onto it with artificially tuned difficulty increases that can and will screw you over it you’re not specifically prepared for them because these changes aren’t telegraphed at all.

Even at the ripe age of 15 when this game came out I got bored of the repetitive difficulty loops and to this day, never actually bothered to finish the main story. I distinctly remember only playing through the second half of the game because I wanted to try the Ultra Warp Ride for Shiny hunting purposes and even that got boring after a while. I think what ultimately killed my interest in these games was the fact that the game’s already embarrassing pacing on account of the cutscenes and dialogue breaks any sort of immersion the player may have with training their Pokémon for the next “difficult” battle. Battles which, if I hadn’t been using the Exp. Share, may have been grounds for me to try and get a refund if I was a brand new fan playing a main series game for the first time coming off of the sugar high that was Pokémon’s 2016 calendar year. At least in the base games, not only was Alola still original on account of, well, not being a split third version game, but the easier difficulty is honestly a good thing so as to at least try and bandage the game’s slower pace.

…or, hear me out- I could just play a different Pokémon game that’s not from this “late 2010s going into 2020” phase that actually has some development passion put into it. Crazy, huh?
 
All mainline Pokémon games are designed with kids in mind by the nature of this franchise.
They just wouldn't cut off the majority of their consumer base.
I think the Ultra-games were more designed to appeal to adults with nostalgia towards being a child.
Also think X/Y were designed to casual players, and not children.
 
I think the Ultra-games were more designed to appeal to adults with nostalgia towards being a child.
Also think X/Y were designed to casual players, and not children.
The developers have actually said the Ultra games were designed to (provided I don’t remember their exact wording) “take advantage of the success of the popular mobile game Pokémon Go”. At first glance one might think this quote would be referring to the Let’s Go games that would be announced and released a year later, but my own takeaway from this has always been that they may have had more ideas for a second pair of Alola games, but they decided to rush out the Ultra games late into development of base Alola when they saw Pokémon Go was doing as well as it was.

Either way, from what I’m aware of these games were still made by what I’ll refer to as “Game Freak Team A” while “Game Freak Team B” worked on Let’s Go as their introduction to the Switch. The Ultra games definitely seem like a more advanced, almost “Challenge Mode” version of base Alola designed as Game Freak’s final 3DS project and a harder challenge for older fans. The idea of adding newer content to the base games one year after would be reworked into DLC instead of full games later on, and while I’m still on the fence as to which I prefer, the end result is the same- they definitely had a goal with the Ultra games, even if it’s not exactly clear what that was. I would like to say that most of the new content adds something that base Alola was lacking in, but the Rainbow Rocket stuff is just fanservice as far as I can tell and everything else could just as easily have been seen in other games or has been seen in other games, in the case of the “let’s add all of these Legendaries back!” trope that started in ORAS.
 
Nah, I think the intended/shortcut solution is Fly-Z.
I thought it was that at first.

Turns out they dumped 252 EVs in Def and made it Bold for good measure. And I'm pretty sure it gets +1 Defense too.

The way I see it, I think they really want the player to just throw 2-3 mons at it and slowly chip it down until it's out. It's a raid boss in all but name.
 
Ugh, you don't even know the half of it.
Totem Gumshoos gives you the Normalium-Z, right? And you are supposed to used that against Hala, the Fighting Kahuna? Well, that Z-move can't be STAB.
The Araquanid? Gamefreak is trolling again. The grass-moves, no matter what that NPC says in the PokeCenter, won't do jack against it. And good luck finding the Flyium Z. IF you even have a flying type move. It's no longer Wishiwashi time!
Alolan Marowak is actualy fine if you can resist its moves.
But it took me a while to figure out, you don't have to fight everything at Lush Jungle.
Or how about Togedemaru? Spikey Shield, a 2-turn move, and it will flinch you if you do not outspeed! And that it is steel-type, good luck finding a pokemon that can hurt it hard.
How about Mimikyu? That's a real 2 v 1, plus it gets a free turn hurting you, plus the minion will burn and curse you...
Ugh! Totems!

But you know what rly pisses me off? You can't get the Normal Water. The item exists, but you can1t have it! Only Fresh Water for you again.
 
I understand what you’re saying OP with the fine tuning, I’ve felt that about other bosses in the series.

I’m on my first playthrough of Moon rn, and from my perspective, the idea is that you use xp share and train 1-2 Pokemon per totem boss. Like, training 1-2 flying/fire/bug/etc before facing off with the grass totem, to add to your squad, removing your Pokemon that will be most useless in the fight.

Obv that doesn’t work with the premise, but I assume that’s the intent, especially with the xp done the B/W way
 
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