A Solid Defense Makes a Golden Offense Edition:2 [OU RMT]

XxBlueCleric.xX

INTRODUCTION:

Hey guys, I'm back with my 3rd RMT. This one uses the same philosophy and battle style as my first team so I chose to call it a second edition, but it's a very different team, so yeah....for those of you wondering, I tried to cover or check a vast majority of the threats. (I drew up a comprehensive threat list which contained all the OU Pokemon and some BLs, which I'll post later due to time constraints.) The Solid Defense I built this team around came with a couple Calm Minders, a Dragon Dancer, and a Swords Dancer. Many of these Pokes are also quite Offensive and that makes this team Bulky Offensive and nicely Balanced. I really love playing with this team, but I don't have any Leaderboard ratings to boast of. (I never really have enough time to keep laddering to reach LeaderBoard though, but maybe I will sometime in the future - like the Spring Break!)

The main reason I'm posting this is to find out if I'm missing something (I don't know if I am...I've been editing this team a lot by myself) and I need some help with the last 2 slots. I'm not sure if those are the best things I could use. I really only need to know if the last Poke is the best choice. I really like my core of the first 4 Pokes though.

Lastly, I just wanted to say this wasn't the team I built during my Tutorial period, this is even newer. Without further ado, here's the team:

TEAM AT A GLANCE:

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IN DEPTH LOOK:


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Salamence @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 76 HP / 176 Spe/ 190 Def / 68 Atk
Adamant Nature (+Atk -SAtk)
- Dragon Dance
- Dragon Claw
- Earthquake
- Roost
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Comments / Thoughts:

My own twist on BulkyMence. In my opinion, it's one of the best Salamence options in this metagame. After a Dragon Dance, the "get it locked into Outrage" doesn't work. And stuff like Suicune and Vaporeon are set-up bait for this team.

You might be wondering why I have this in the lead role though. This is because I really needed something to beat Metagross leads and be able to hinder many leads like Jirachi, Azelf, Tyranitar etc. because one Poke can't do it all, right?

The EVs are the most interesting part, so I'll explain them before someone tells me to refer to the Smogon Dex for my EVs...the old BulkyMence invested nothing in Attack. And I used to run that set. Sadly, it couldn't 2HKO Metagross. With Adamant and 68 Atk, Libelldra Calculator gives me ~70+% chance to 2HKO Metagross. 190 Defense and 76 HP mean it's not as physically durable but it can still take good hits. (example: not 2HKOd by +1 LO Extremespeed from Lucario) The 76 HP is for a Leftovers number...176 Speed is to outrun that same Lucario.

All in all, Salamence is a great asset to this team from the moment he Leads to when he acts as an awesome Intimidate Death Fodder or Sweeps the opponent.

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Tyranitar @ Leftovers
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 252 HP / 220 SpDef/ 36 Def
Careful Nature (+SDef -Satk)
- Stealth Rock
- Stone Edge
- Pursuit
- Fire Punch
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Comments / Thoughts:

Here's my Special Wall. It's my answer to Latias and Zapdos whom it easily takes advantage of. Through sp.attackers like those, I can easily get the Rocks up. Stone Edge still packs a punch though. Fire Punch can remove Scizor in one hit, which is really nice considering the number of teams that rely on him to counter Tyranitar.

Stealth Rock + 3 Attacks with no Offensive EVs may seem pretty pathetic and not abusing Tyranitar's amazing power, but in the end, I just need him to remove or severely weaken Latias and potentially take random Tricks that could hinder my set-up sweepers. If Tyranitar can fulfill all that, it's all good.



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Jirachi @ Leftovers
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 HP / 136 Spe/ 120 Def
Bold Nature (+Def -Atk)
- Calm Mind
- Psychic
- Thunderbolt
- Wish
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Comments / Thoughts:

The "Star" of the show. Well, somewhat. It's always been the first poke on the team whenever I used Bulky Offense. (I seriously need to get out of that mold)

This thing walls the few things that a Physically Oriented Salamence and a Specially Oriented Tyranitar can't handle. Most notably, Bulky Waters. Wish support is something to crave for in D/P and CM Jirachi does it nicely. Especially for a Bulky Offensive team like this.

The EVs give it a lot of bulk, and many times even Hippowdon and Gliscor Earthquakes fail to 2HKO.

To conclude, mid-game Wishes, walling random Pokes, and getting a CM sweep in the end. Seriously, this thing is irreplaceable for this team.

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Scizor @ Leftovers
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 HP / 16 Atk / 220 Def / 18 SDef / 4 Spe
Adamant Nature (+Atk -SAtk)
- Swords Dance
- Bullet Punch
- Brick Break
- Roost
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Comments / Thoughts:

Scizor is present in almost every OU team and what a surprise, it found it's way into mine.

I made this very Defensive because I have nothing to take on Tyranitar who is a huge threat seeing as though he easily gets in on Jirachi. He can hurt everything pretty badly too...

Swords Dance up and sweep is the premise. Brick Break > X Scissor and Scizor messes up Dual Screen stuff nicely. Lastly, Brick Break actually hurts Magnezone.

Scizor can actually switch-in on a lot of stuff and is overall a great asset to this team.

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Celebi @ Leftovers
Ability: Nature Cure
EVs: 240 HP / 36 Spe/ 232 Def
Bold Nature (+Def -Atk)
- Calm Mind
- Hidden Power {Fire}
- Grass Knot
- Recover
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Comments / Thoughts:

Another odd set, but it works amazingly together with Jirachi. Celebi is a very capable Defensive Calm Minder.

The biggest reason I put this Celebi over Latias was the fact that he wasn't Tyranitar bait like Jirachi AND could handle my weaknesses to certain threats like Swampert + Gyarados. Not to mention, it can switch in on Thunder Waves.

My biggest hunch with this set is that it is Salamence bait, but oh well, no Poke can cover everything.

In the end, Celebi is really crucial to this team. It can seriously handle many threats and sweep nicely. I really love using it, too.


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Gyarados @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Spe/ 252 Def
Impish Nature (+Def -SAtk)
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Waterfall
- Stone Edge
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Comments / Thoughts:

To tell you the truth, I'm really not impressed with this Pokemon. After having a 5-poke group of Salamence/Tyranitar/Jirachi/Celebi/Scizor, I needed to cover only 2 things: Infernape and Dragons. I say Dragons because Scizor can't be relied on to completely rid me of a Dragon Weakness. It doesn't even hit them super-effectively. Sadly, for this job, I could only think up of 2 Pokemon: Latias and Gyarados. Latias covers any Dragons that don't have a DD whereas Scizor can catch a +1 Dragon using Outrage on my Latias. Gyarados can simply survive most hits and Stone Edge back. Unfortunately, it's not faster than MixMence. Both of them can handle MixMence. SADLY, latias brings 3 triple weaknesses on this team and I couldn't bring myself to using her.

In the end, Gyarados is somewhat of a dead weight Poke. It barely does anything besides covering these 2 threats. 286 attack and an 80 power STAB move simply makes him fodder and that's unfortunate for a Bulky Offense team. I've tried less bulky varients but it just doesn't work out due to Stealth Rock screwing up his defense.
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SO there ya go. Post your rate or criticism. I need help with the last slot and maybe even the last 2 slots. To help your rate I'll put in the main reasons for Celebi + Gyarados, the "SUSPECT" slots.

Thunder Wave: Celebi

Gyarados: Celebi

Swampert: Celebi

Infernape: Gyarados

Salamence: Gyarados

ANYWAYS, THREAT LIST TO COME SOON. DONT FORGET TO POST AND THANKS FOR READING!!!



:toast:XxBlueCleric.xX:toast:
 
Salamence might want to hold a Lum Berry to prevent common lead statuses that would end its sweep before it had the chance to get going. Magnezone might give you trouble, but with your Ttar being a special wall, perhaps not. Roar might be good over Pursuit on it to help with preventing set ups and to gain SR damage, especially since it really does not have the attack to really back it up with. If Latias is that much of a concern you are better of with Crunch. Physical Jirachi might help hit Latias in her weaker defense. Gyarados is an iffy Salamence counter, especially with an 80% accurate move with a 33% chance of being selected while asleep.

Three of your pkmn require a set up which leaves you wide open to Skarmory/Hippowdon/Latias pHazing you. Trick is also a big crippler so you should have something to Trick back.
 
You could try Vaporeon with Ice Beam over Gyra, it counters Infernape and Dragons like you said, plus fits in the "bulky offense" theme...
 
Vaporeon really slows the team down, so I prefer not to use it.

Salamence needs Leftovers, especially with SS. Most of the Phazers are taken care of well by this team. How does Latias phaze? The other two Pokes mentioned are taken care of by Celebi. CM Jirachi is hard to phaze as well. Since I made this team partially around Jirachi, I'm not keen on changing it. I've tried Physical Jirachi and CM Jirachi is just too effective to give up.

If a team has 2 Trick pokes, then something valuable will have to take a Scarf or whatever, but most of the time, Psychic pokes use Trick for which Tyranitar comes in and Pursuits.

Thanks for the rates. I'm thinking of changing a few things (eg. Celebi -> Reflect CM Latias) thoughts? Any1 else wish to rate?
 
You may want to move that Def on jirachi into SpDef to handle offensive water pokes better as celebi(well, nearly your whole team) is 2hkoed by stuff like expertbelt starmie and such.

Tyranitar works well enough for stopping all but the reflect variants of latias. So you might need some sort of plan for that. Further, relying on Stone Edge to beat heatran seems a little dangerous. I realize you can probably use gyara for that but with all of the hp electric stuff running around and the fact that gyara takes heavy hits for you...well you may want EQ over...well I don't know really! I'd put it over stone edge as you don't really have that for a particular reason other than zapdos (who your other teammates handle better).

You probably want more attack on scizor for stuff like yanmega which the rest of your team can't really stop. BP needs to be able to take it out quickly as scizor is also 2hkoed. At the moment I think you probably 3hko in SS maybe even 4hko.

Relying on stone edges (gyara's) accuracy to prevent DDmence sweeps seems really risky to me. I'd probably change that to ice fang. It lowers your coverage against other gyara but it helps you out vs grasses and flygon (and other dragons) which your team has moderate trouble with.

As far as celebi goes I realize that grass knot is far more useful in the ou metagame than energy ball but your current team loses to a simple alternation between skarmory and blissey. Celebi and Jirachi can both handle both if Celebi had energy ball. I like this set up better for you since you don't have to switch Jirachi into thunderwaves or flamethrowers to get around bliss (let celebi do it!).

Again, salamence is basically skarmory bait so you could try putting flamethrower over EQ. This handles skarm and bronzong better while giving you the ability to ohko scizor and forry. This applies mainly to Scizor as SD/Roost versions seems to give you some trouble as your best bet against them is revenge killing with Celebi.

If I can think of other things I'll post again, this is a pretty nice team! I don't have a team at the moment, I hope you don't mind, I'm borrowing this.
 
Wow; that was a great rate, thanks Husk.

I'll address what you said individually:

Jirachi needs those Defense points a lot. First off, the defense allows me to use him as a backup to Gyarados. Second, earthquakes from the likes of Gliscor miss 2HKO will I can easily KO them back. Starmie is a problem if it has Hydro Pump. Surf and 100 sp.atk isn't really strong enough to do so much damage when Jirachi can CM or Wish or take it down with Thunderbolt. After a few CMs, the Defense is what keeps Jirachi alive. I might change the Speed EVs though as outspeeding Heracross isn't as important as it was a long time ago.

Yeah. Tyranitar can't stop Reflect Latias. But Reflect Latias is set-up fodder for Scizor. Yeah, Heatran could be a problem....maybe Fire Punch should be switched for something else?

For a DDMence sweep, the best method is to get it locked into Outrage. My Defensive Scizor can take Mence out easily if it's locked into Outrage. The problem is getting that Mence into Outrage. Mence will Earthquake Jirachi and Tyranitar. Set up all over Celebi or Fire Blast it (as it does to Scizor). My own Mence is my best bet in that case, but that's extremely risky. Gyarados w/ Stone Edge or an Ice move stands a better chance at a lure and thanks to Intimidate, it just so happens it can take Salamence 1-1.

SkarmBliss is annoying but CMJirachi has a reputation for beating that combo. Yeah..Energy Ball could be useful too thanks to that Sp. drop. But then again, Grass Knot is more useful against revenging a Tyranitar if Scizor dies (I should slap a Shed Shell on him to ensure that doesn't happen).

For Mence, are you suggesting a Flamethrower/DD/Dragon Claw/Roost? If so, what nature and EVs? I'm thinking a MixMence might be better in that case.

Scizor..actually, I use Gyarados to stop them, but SD + Roost could be really annoying. Unless I manage to get a Crit. or a Flinch on Waterfall. Yeah...looks like Celebi might have to do some revenging in that case. I'll test out a different type of Mence which can handle Scizors better.

The only thing about this team I'm a bit concerned about is the fact that Gyarados doesn't do much. I've been trying to replace it but I'm not sure with what yet. Any thoughts?

OH, and I encourage anyone who wants to try out this team to play to their heart's content. Good luck! ;)

Any other rates?
 
I've played around for a bit and you really lack something speedy to stop late-game sweeps. Stuff like DDtar or DDmence late game after your initial counter has been weakened or KOed easily clean up the other 5 pokes. I can't really think of what the pokemon would be but it should be able to revenge kill most things, namely dragons. I'm thinking Scarfgar could be an option, in addition to stopping dragons well it can help with other pokes.

Rotom is also an issue for this team as between wisp/sb/bolt you don't have a good switch in. I've been using jirachi as my switch against it and I risk taking an overheat each time.

As for the jirachi SpDef thing...jirachi can CM up against starmie if starmie and jirachi are sent out at the same time. If Jirachi has to switch into starmie it has to take two attacks before it can CM and if starmie switches out after the surf on the switch (as you CM) it's a waste. If you tbolt as starmie switches you can't switch into starmie again if they went to an offensive counter such as tar or heatran (as opposed to blissey who isn't really a counter but is somehow a common switch...I guess to twave which isn't something you should stay in vs as well). So basically, you have to wish and that makes your jirachi non-threatening as it isn't hitting whatever is coming in on the switch. Further, jirachi isn't actually receiving any of those wishes so it gets worn down. Expert belt starmie is usually more offensive that the standard spinner but other examples of similar problematic pokemon would be Empoleon or special kingdra.

The problem with using jirachi as your skarmbliss counter is that you need to CM up all the way to beat bliss and so you risk eating a Twave and then getting revenge killed easily. Slow jirachi dies pretty quick from my experiences.

Reflect latias generally beats scizor as the set is: DP/HP Fire/Reflect/Recover as dragon pulse and HP fire complement each other well. If they aren't using HP: Fire they'll have surf which is just as deadly as with reflect up your scizor isn't doing much to latias anyway.

Ninjask and other BPers are also and issue so you might want roar on something. Dunno what yet. So far I've been attempting to anticipate the poke they are BPing to and so far it has worked but it's far from flawless.


I'm sure I forgot something but this team works well either way...I'm at 1530~ after only a few matches from a new account. The stuff I mentioned is pretty rare, I'm interested in "perfecting" it.
 
Hmm....that's true. The fastest Poke on this team is sadly my BulkyMence.

I'm planning on trying out:

Heatran @ Choice Scarf
Modest
~ Fire Blast / Overheat
~ Dragon Pulse
~ Explosion/Stealth Rock/Lava Plume
~ Earth Power

It will go over Gyarados. It provides me with a check to similar Pokes that Gyarados attempts to wall such as Lucario and Scizor. It also checks Infernape and handles most Dragons well, which Gyarados also attempted. It provides some nice speed for the team and works well in tandem with Celebi and Jirachi. It's also a better tactic to use when handling opposing Heatran. (well, other than using TTar or Salamence) Modest > Timid so as to get the 2HKO on Latias which already seems like a moderate threat.

The moveset is pretty crucial. Overheat is for hit-n-run whereas Fire Blast is for sweeping. At the state of the current metagame, it seems Heatran is going to have a hard time sweeping with Fire Blast. Explosion was the old 4th slot, but I might switch it for Stealth Rock. Adding Stealth Rock on a Scarfed poke WOULD be hard to pull off, but due to the fact that Heatran can come in on so many Choice'd pokes and force many switches, I could pull this off successfully. Doing this means I can pretty much make Tyranitar whatever set: preferably a Choice Bander w/ SDef EVs? or maybe a DDer? lava Plume in the last slot is useful too, 100% accurate STAB and 30% Burn rate are really awesome, but it's a lesser option.

In terms of weaknesses, Heatran provides a lot more resists. The weaknesses he brings (Water, Ground, Fighting) are all taken care of well (except the trip Ground weak I incur), but keep in mind that Heatran outspeeds Dugtrio which could be really useful.


Husk, as for Jirachi: I've been testing Bold; 252 HP, 224 Def, 32 Spe. It outruns Tyranitar and it's Defense is high to the point where it can get Wish recovery for itself. Jolly LO Dugtrio can only deal 55-65% with this defense. A +1 LO 383 Atk Gyarados also fails to OHKO 100% of the time.

Rotom is annoying. I switch in Celebi. It's faster and can pull of a CM. CM + Recover wins against Shadow Ball + Wisp even. But Sp.Def drops and Crits can be highly annoying.

Reflect Latias with that set could be annoying. I thought you were referring to the Defensive Calm Minder which is a mono-Dragon attacker.


Thanks for testing the team Husk. I really appreciate your comments. I'm going to test out ScarfTran soon. It helps against most of the "trouble" pokes you have mentioned, even Rotom. I'll post the results afterwards. Any more posts?
 
If I cover anything that Husk or anyone else has already stated, please excuse it.

First of all, I just wanted to say that this type of play style is a slight gem in the rough for me. Bulky offensive takes the best of both worlds, defensive and offensive. While I played with a similar team for months, you have to be on the look-out for certain things. Late game sweeps are extremely important not only for you, but for your opponent. Expect to get blown away by the likes of Gyarados or Salamence if you don't have a check for it or just flat out sacrificed it. Your initial play in the beginning of the match really determines the outcome of the latter part of the match, and ultimately the end result.

Anyhow, back to the team. I completely disagree with having two calm minders in your squad. First off, it isn't particularly like each are checks for certain things, barring Celebi for Gyarados of course (still two hit KO'd by Ice Fang). The idea is to weaken your opponent's defenses to the point where you can therefore setup without any hassle. Bulky setups often take two to three turns to solitify your sweep in the match (assuming you took all counters out). To solve this problem, I'd suggest taking out either of the two, and place in a Pokemon that really just fills more holes in which your opponent could take a sweep. Possibly Bronzong, since you really can't do anything to Salamence. On the other hand, if Jirachi is really irreplacable, switch out Celebi for something, while also being a check for Gyarados.

As for Salamence leading your team, I really dislike this. Odds are, you probably don't get many sweeps, and keeping it for the sole reason to reck havok on suicide leads and such is just really pointless to me. You would be much better off switching Tyranitar to Choice Band and throwing it in as your lead. Being able to make the score 6-5 at the beginning of matches by simply pursuiting your opponent's lead Azelf is really invaluable. I can imagine that explosions aren't too welcome. That leaves Salamence to be your choice. I don't particularly like two Pokemon weak to Stealth Rock, without either a spinner (not really an option in these types of teams) or a taunt lead in the beginning of matches. However, that is just personal preferance. A hole that you may want to fill is where you are fairly weak to Infernape, barring Gyarados, who isn't that reliable after a beating from Stealth Rocks.

An interesting Pokemon to tryout for one of your slots would probably be a curse sleeptalk Swampert. One of the most underrated Pokemon, and easily the most deadly, once grass moves are out of the equation. It would also relieve the issue of status that most of your team has trouble with.
 
I don't have much to say. I just really think you should lead with Tyranitar instead of Salamence. You may be asking why?, well, basically because Tyranitar has Stealth Rock, which means he's perfect for a lead. Especially better than Salamence. Salamence is a horrible lead to be honest, he gets walled by some of the most common leads such as Hippowdon and Swampert. Not only that, but Swampert OHKO's with Ice Beam.
 
Hey, thanks for the posts. (I was unable to read them for a while, so I'm getting to them now)

@ Limitless: All new stuff :) I really like Bulky Offense for the same reasons, but having 2 Calm Minders is really like my trump card. The team runs smoothly in that it can easily end up accomodating a sweep with one of the two. 2 Calm Minders helps so much against opposing bulky teams. Seriously, when Latias is removed by Tyranitar, Celebi can handle any other common CMer (bar Bliss). Jirachi handles the defensive versions w/ Reflect. BulkyMence is my best bet against Offense, similarly.

Salamence lead is my best choice, sadly. Tyranitar only beats Azelf, whereas Mence can weaken it and at least beat Metagross.

As for Swampert, yeah, maybe. Celebi takes status, so yeah....I'd prefer Scarf Tran > Gyara though.. BUT I will try it out, thanks!

@ Locopoke: Well, the Tyranitar lead suggestion was brought about several times. But in all honesty, the Swampert and Hippowdon you mentioned also beat Tyranitar. And so does Metagross. :(

Any other rates?
 
Ok, I'm bumping this thread since you asked me to personally rate the team.

The main issue I see right off the bat is that you are caught in a flux between offense and defense, which means opposing hyper-offense teams beat you down, and stall teams annoy you immensely. You need some form of firepower outside set-up sweepers in order to have the best of both worlds, and ultimately success against both stall teams and cookie-cutter offense teams. Let me point out a few suggestions that will hopefully help you out.

As a lead, regardless of what you may thing, Salamence is terrible. If it's part of your defensive core, you obviously want to save it for late-game where it can handle stuff like Lucario and Heracross. No need to show it early game just to beat leads like Metagross (which is the only lead you beat by the way; Bronzong and Azelf still win).

I say, scrap Gyarados for a Heatran lead. As a lead, not only does Heatran beat most common leads, but also sets up Stealth Rocks almost always, something that Tyranitar might have difficulty doing with its common weaknesses. A simple Heatran set of Fire Blast / Earth Power / Stealth Rock / Explosion holding a Shuca Berry guarantees survival of even the most powerful Earthquakes (barring Mamoswine, CBTar, and CBMence). Also nice considering you can explode on Blissey (with some prediction and caution of protect, of course).

With this change, I also suggest changing up Jirachi. With the way the metagame is going, you are going to have trouble setting up Jirachi as is, and without Substitute, Blissey can basically ThuderWave you anytime (TW Blisseys are increasing in popularity). I suggest utilizing Jirachi as a pure special wall, running Wish / U-Turn / Protect / Thunderbolt to provide support to your defense, and also prevent Skarmory from ruining your fun. Maybe even consider a more defensive spread (lose the speed EV's) in order to have a slow U-Turn and more bulk.

With Tyranitar now, you have the flexibility to run a Choice Band set with your current spread, to add some offense to this super-defensive team. With the Wish support from Jirachi, Tyranitar can better handle multiple special threats. If you do decide to change Jirachi, you can also change Tyranitar's EV spread to something like 176 HP / 252 Att / 80 Speed to maintain some bulk and also outspeed Skarmory (can invest more in speed and less in HP if you want to be sure to outspeed like 16 EV Skarmory).

With the suggested changed, the only real weakness I see is Infernape. Because it's so threatening, I say bring back Gyarados over Salamence. Gyarados still counters the same stuff as Salamence (Lucario, Scizor, etc) but also is a better check against Infernape. Perhaps run a Rest / DD / Waterfall / Sleep Talk set if you want power, or keep the current set you have. If you feel comfortable predicting around Infernape (with your plethora of defensive Pokemon), keep Salamence, as it is a bigger offensive threat than Gyarados. However, if you want real insurance, Gyarados is your best bet.

Hope I helped.
 
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