A Solid Defense makes a Golden Offense. [OU]

Introduction: Hey there, this is my first post/thread. I reached some great success with this team and intend on making Top 50 with it, so yeah...I've been playing competitive Pokemon on Smogon Server for a long time, but I just recently made this account to post my latest team! SO enjoy and be sure to rate!​

The Team:

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SO..to point out a few things:​

  • 2 Stealth Rock weaks but only 1 Resist.​
  • Most things are really bulky here, so ALL revenging is up to Scizor basically.​
  • I have 5 Pokes with Instant Recovery and Wish among them​
  • While this team is rather Offensive, it covers threats solidly (if I missed some, feel free to mention it) and no Poke is real "dead weight" on this team at any point of time really.​
AN IN-DEPTH LOOK:

tyranitar.png


Tyranitar @ Leftovers
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 252 HP / 40 Def / 216 SDef
Nature: Careful (+SDef -SAtk)
Moveset:

~Stone Edge
~Pursuit
~Stealth Rock
~Earthquake

Description: Tyranitar is more of the Special Wall of the team, but I won't go as far as to say that's all he can do with respect to his 304 attack stat. Stealth Rock is crucial on any team and is on mine too. The moveset is more offensively oriented because Tyranitar is the main guy I switch to if I fear a Trick. And he responds by Pursuiting that damn Psychic/Ghost. Useful to say the least.​

zapdos.png


Zapdos @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 220 Def / 36 Spe
Nature: Bold (+Def -Atk)
Moveset:

~Thunderbolt
~Toxic
~Roost
~Heat Wave

Description: Zapdos is the Physical compliment to Tyranitar in this case and together counter a bunch of stuff. Heat Wave for Steels and allows this to function as my Lucario and Scizor counter. Toxic is the slot I was a bit confused on, but it has the potential to screw over Swampert and Tyranitar and outstalls Blissey w/o Toxic.
I went Physical on this, but I'm considering Special. Read the RMT and give me your views on this.​

suicune.png


Suicune @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 176 Def / 80 SDef
Nature: Bold (+Def -Atk)
Moveset:

~Surf
~Ice Beam
~Rest
~Calm Mind


Description: This thing is an insane sweeper. Rest w/o Sleep Talk seems bad, but the fact is that with this spread, even a +2 LO Lucario can't OHKO and Suicune is such a useful countering tool. Ice Beam is to put pressure on dragons.
BTW, don't suggest Vaporeon in this slot if you were going to. I've tried it out and it slows any momentum this team flows with for the most part.​

jirachi.png


Jirachi @ Leftovers
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 HP / 88 Def / 168 Spe
Nature: Bold (+Def -Atk)
Moveset:

~Thunderbolt
~Calm Mind
~Wish
~Psychic

Description: Yet another CM poke. Why? Because they're so broken, especailly the ones that can actually rape a pink fatass. Wish > Substitute because team recovery is useful. Period. EVs to outspeed Gyarados so I can maximize bulk. Another reason for this so I can slaughter Magnezone thinking they're trapping a Scarf version and I can survive a potential Dugtrio revenge attempt if Wish has brought me to above 90%.​

salamence.png


Salamence @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 176 Def / 80 Spe
Nature: Jolly (+Spe -SAtk)
Moveset:

~Earthquake
~Dragon Dance
~Roost
~Dragon Claw

Description: Completes the old JiraMence combo that I love so much beacuse they're my two favorite Pokes. BulkyMence was raep in Suspect and I can't complain with him in standard. Dragon Claw > Outrage in that most ppl expect Salamence to get locked in on a Dragon move so a Steel can revenge. Other than that, BulkyMence switches in on random stuff and makes a nice death fodder with Intimidate. However, I sweep the most with this guy because Dragon Dance is quite simply the deadliest stat-up move in the late-game.​

scizor.png


Scizor @ Leftovers
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 HP / 80 Def / 176 SpDef
Nature: Careful (+SDef -SAtk)
Moveset:

~Bullet Punch
~SuperPower
~Roost
~Swords Dance

Description: Yet another sweeper, maintaining my Offense on this team. Bullet Punch makes this my only true Revenger since this team doesn't have much Speed otherwise. Superpower is for Magnezones who is actually more popular now than ever.
Scizor is the Glue to my team. It allows me to come in on Outrages and Roost off all damage. It's also my only good switch in to Tyranitar besides Suicune who still takes a number from Stone Edge. I'm still unsure if this slot could be utilized better, but it's been working okay except when I switch in on something like a Tyranitar and Roost as they bring in a Magnezone. Then I have to resort to some dodgy predicting which ends up with me losing something valuable, like the match....lol.​


Conclusion: SO offensively, I have 4 set-up sweepers and my two other tanks have 134 attack and 125 sp.attack bases. That's usually enough to overwhelm the opponent late-game.

DEFENSIVELY...you may be wondering how this thing takes on threats, especially since I stressed that most things are countered pretty well.

THREAT LIST:

I've bolded decent threats.

Lucario: Zapdos is an awesome counter. BulkyMence can work well too thnx to Intimidate. Really, the only way Lucario is getting an SD is if I get outpredicted...if I get paranoid of Lucario, I'll bump up Salamence's speed.

Infernape: Having Suicune and Salamence plays on its 4 slot syndrome if it's an NP version. But All-Out Attack Varients are too weak to really kill Suicune before it gets killed. It's made me consider Special Def. Zapdos.

Salamence: Cresselia is the only true 100% counter to MixMence, but Suicune does that job decently. Keep in mind SR + SS + LO = 41% per attack. HP Ice on Zapdos would work nicely, but Salamence isn't too big of a deal for me to use that. Jirachi and Scizor take Outrages easily and hit back hard.

Tyranitar: Not having Scizor as my glue would force me to highlight this guy. Even still, I'm fearful of Fire moves on him. Really, Tyranitar's best switch is on Jirachi. Everything else can hit him hard.

Gyarados: A big threat, actually. Zapdos is an alright counter, but still. Jirachi can be used as a last resort. And Gyarados can't do crap to Suicune, but I can't do much back either. THIS makes good case for HP Ice on Zapdos and HP Electric on Suicune. But I haven't decided yet. :pirate:

Scizor: Zapdos laughs at Scizor. BulkyMence can Intimidate it and do some decent damage. Suicune isn't bad either.

Gengar: Special Defensive Scizor loves him. So does Zapdos.

Heatran: Suicune manhandles him. Tyranitar isn't even 4HKOd. Salamence works on ScarfTran not using Dragon/Ice moves.

AND THOSE are some of the "big" threats I could think of. If you think of anything I didn't talk about, feel free to mention it AND be sure to...

RMT!!!!

~ BC.:toast:
 
I fail to see how Jirachi can "own" a Magnezone thinking they're trapping a Scarf version. You only have two moves, which are Thunderbolt and Psychic, and those won't do much to a Magnezone, even if you've gotten 1 or 2 Calm Mind's up. Magnezone can also kill you with HP fire. I'm not sure what you should put over any of these moves, or if you should replace any, but Magnezone is a potential problem for that Jirachi set, or even your team in general. It can Thunderbolt Suicune and (I guess) Zapdos, it can HP Fire Scizor and Jirachi, it can Flash Cannon on Tyranitar, and Explode on Salamence. You may want to consider fixing for this weakness.
 
I fail to see how Jirachi can "own" a Magnezone thinking they're trapping a Scarf version. You only have two moves, which are Thunderbolt and Psychic, and those won't do much to a Magnezone, even if you've gotten 1 or 2 Calm Mind's up. Magnezone can also kill you with HP fire. I'm not sure what you should put over any of these moves, or if you should replace any, but Magnezone is a potential problem for that Jirachi set, or even your team in general. It can Thunderbolt Suicune and (I guess) Zapdos, it can HP Fire Scizor and Jirachi, it can Flash Cannon on Tyranitar, and Explode on Salamence. You may want to consider fixing for this weakness.

Could you maybe run a damage calc before spouting off that Jirachi can't handle Magnezone? Since you indicated HP:Fire Magnezone that usually goes in line with the scarf version, so a scarf Magnezone HP:Fire to a +1 252 Jirachi (assuming he gets CM on the switch): Damage: 25.99% - 30.45% - so in the end he can easily Wish, CM up again, and proceed to work from that. I personally favor Substitue type Jirachi for blocking status and beating things like non-CM/Perish Song Celebi (the majority of them) 1 on 1 if needed, subbing on a TWave and proceeding to setup is always awesome. But then again you are a more defensive type team and rely on switching around with your bulky sweepers and I see that it fits better. Be careful of a TWaving Celebi as it can work this team over without many swaps that would appreciate taking it.
 
Hey, thanks for the rate ;)

Magnezone does seem like a large threat the way you put it. You didn't specify the type of Magnezone, but I'll go over all of the main ones:

Steel Killer: The standard that runs Max Attack + natured fails to 2HKO my Jirachi. That means if I bring in Jirachi and use either Wish or Calm Mind, this set isn't going to win in the long run, especially since I can use Calm Mind again due to my speed...

Choice Specs/Scarf: The only sets that Magnezone runs all of the moves you mentioned (Thunderbolt, Hidden Power Fire, Flash Cannon, Explosion) Specs will not defeat Jirachi since I'm faster, again. I've never seen Specs, but it'd probably require prediction to beat as does many powerful Choice users.

Choice Scarf sets run 359 SpAtk, which means they can't 2HKO Jirachi either and do less damage, but they have the speed advantage. Still, Jirachi will win. Now, in the case that Magnezone tries to come in on Suicune....I can switch to my Tyranitar which is built so Special Defensively that Tyranitar probably won't even be 3HKOd (Leftovers factored in) by Flash Cannon.

Now, most Magnezone are also easy to Revenge. Tyranitar OHKOs with Earthquake. Zapdos 2HKOs with Heat Wave. Salamence OHKOs with Earthquake. Again, Scarf versions are dealt with Prediction.
On a side note, after Intimidate factored in, the 158 Attack Magnezones can't even land a 2HKO on my Salamence even while using Explosion....(with Explosion's halving Def. effect) IF any1 still proposes Magnezone as a large threat, that points more to my simply changing Zapdos to a Special Defensive Varient.

Any1 else willing to rate?
 
Nice team. I find that if Jirachi has Substitute over Wish it can stump those Dugtrio trying to switch in as you CM.Also after a few CM's there won't be much that can break your subs.

MixMence with roost over your current. This team really hates stall and salamence is the best stall breaker in the game.

Ok so if you add MixMence go with Flash Cannon and HP Ground on your Jirachi. That set is pretty lethal and can really screw up Heatran switch ins.

Your EV spreads need work. Check out the strategy dex.
 
Thunderbolt does more damage to jirachi due to STAB then HP fire.
95 x 1.5 > 70 x 2
142.5 > 140
The 10% chance to paralyze is also always welcome.

This team idea appears quite decent.
How do you do early game? The extra power/speed from a lot of choice Pokemon appear as if they could potentially cause you some trouble with decent prediction. I'm not sure, however, as you could adequately counter most threats, and recover off the damage.

EDIT:
When I say "quite decent" I mean that I don't see any glaring weaknesses. Could be exceptional; I really don't know much about team building, probably the main reason why I actually look around here.
 
Admittedly so, this is a nice team. However there's something -icky- about it. For an example, Celebi seems to be a fan of this team, perhaps running Leech Seed, Grass Knot, Recover and a filler. Whatever that filler may be, it'll be an annoying bitch ass, such as Thunder Wave, which is probably the worst thing you can have (hello Salamence/Scizor/Zapdos). Then there's also the Hidden Powers which Fire or Ice can be annoying. Hell, Perish Song prevents any momentum and even the rare Reflect will cause a lot of problems.

Another issue I dislike is the inability really handle a DDTar. Now granted we have Suicune and Scizor, but for the sake of rating a team negatively rather than positively (so we prepare for the worst), Suicune is asleep and Scizor will not OHKO with Bullet Punch. In fact I think your EVs will do something along the lines of 48% on average, meaning it can possibly live through 2 Bullet Punches. (Stone Edge will OHKO so don't try the "I can SuperPower" thing)

Now what stops all these things? Oh let's not forget your Gyarados weakness. The only thing that really comes to mind to damper these threat's, that being of Gyarados, Celebi and Tyranitar is.......something you already have! A very defensively bulky Jirachil. Meaning let's scrap this whole CM'ing thing. Sadly Jirachi needs something like 316 min Defense to guarantee survival against 383 Life Orb +1 Gyarados Earthquake so that might not work out. Another road we'll turn to is.......METAGROSS! But with all the beef instead. I'd probably throw it out there but we can try something unorthodox such as Thunderpunch, Meteor Mash, Rest, Sleep Talk. Not only will it stop a sweep from Tyranitar and Gyarados, but is able to outstall things if needed. But of course you coudl miss Meteor Mash like 9 times as Tyranitar DD's up x6 and then decides to kill you with Pursuit, but whatever.
 
Hey, thanks for all the rates, I really appreciate it!

SO IN RESPONSE:

I never considered Perish Song Celebi, but it can mess up most of this team (stops all sweepers besides Suicune who has Ice Beam). However, the bigger issue with Celebi is Thunder Wave versions. Generally, it's best to let Tyranitar take Thunder Wave or let Suicune take it since I'm not running Speed anyways and I can always Rest it off. But none of them handle Celebi :( A bulky Celebi takes Tyranitar Crunches fairly well, and Suicune gets slaughtered.)
Correction(s): Generally, Zapdos is a safe idea to bring in (between Toxic and Heat Wave, Celebi gets screwed) Thunder Wave really hurts Zapdos though....Other than that, I could use X-Scissor on Scizor. I'D LIKE TO SAY that in every battle against Celebi, I always just switch to Jirachi and get a Wish pass or maybe get a CM and sweep if possible. BUT Perish Song and Thunder Wave both can get really annoying.
BTW, I also did recieve the MixMence idea and that seems pretty cool. Despite the Paralysis factor, MixMence is a nice switch-in due to how deadly it is with Draco Meteor-Fire Blast-Brick Break/EQ-something.

DDTar: I think pushing over Special Defense bulk to Defense on Scizor would be a potential correction for this. Just for interests sake, 252/80 Scizor that I'm running gets OHKOd by Stone Edge very rarely, but still, with omnipresent Rocks......(Careful -> Impish ensures survival for me though and LO + 2 Bullet Punches means Tyranitar is dead..)

Gyarados: Pain in the ass....I like the idea of Metagross though. Maybe with Scarf? +natured Metagross beats out Offensive Gyara. by one point.
I might just have Suicune use HP Electric. But as I've already said. 25% SR + 10% LO + 6% Sand Stream + Suicune Ice Beam means Gyara won't live too long. AND if Lucario's +2 CC with LO doesn't OHKO my Suicune, I don't think Gyara can 2HKO....But I didn't run a calc for that so w/e...

AND @ The Urkman~~

About the EVs:
Tyranitar ~ Standard for Special Defense to survive Gengar's LO Focus Blast
Zapdos ~ Standard Physically Bulky
Jirachi ~ My own EVs because I'm not using Substitute. I only really care about outrunning Gyarados, since the next Speed tier I'd be looking at is 85, for Heracross. And I'd rather keep the bulk than push it up to 280 speed.
Suicune ~ 176 Defense to survive a +2 LO CC from Lucario 100% of the time. 80 Special Defense to take a few hits from Heatran or Infernape and take random Hidden Power [Electric/Grass]
Salamence ~ It's the standard DD BulkyMence
Scizor ~ With this EV spread, it's easy to take hits from the likes of Vaporeon and SD + Roost off damage. I think it even survives Magnezone hidden power fire. BUT with DDTar being as threatening as it is, I might just bump defense up.

Thanks for the rates so far every1 !!! :toast:
 
Few comments.

First, this is a very nice team and I really like the idea. A few ideas, since the team is solid enough and you really don't need any "suggestions."

@ Salamence: I would change this EV spread to give him enough speed for Lucario. Personal preference, but if Suicune is weakened or asleep a Jolly Lucario can tear you apart. Also, I would consider using Life Orb or at least Dragon Fang since you have sandstorm. Bulkymence does like the extra "punch" because hes using no attack and weaker moves. The spread I use is 192 HP / 140 Def / 176 Spe, Jolly.. but that is mainly because I use Life Orb and shoot for a Life Orb number. a 252 HP / 80 Def / 176 Spe is worth considering.

@ Scizor. I would Shed Shell him as you'd be surprised how many people rely on Magnezone just for Scizor. Also, I would change his nature to Adamant to grant much more stat points. Careful really isn't doing too much for you here.

@ Jirachi. This is purely a theorymon idea that I will try out tomorrow when I make my team. Wish + Protect is fantastic healing as we see on Vaporeon. I thought this spread might work:

Jirachi @ Wide Lens / Leftovers
Nature: Timid
EVs: 252 HP / 80 SpA / 176 Spe
*Psychic
*Charge Beam
*Wish
*Protect

goofy set I know, but Wide Lens is a 99% chance to get a SpA boost from Charge Beam. You still get Electric + Psychic coverage, and now you get psuedo instant heal and Protect is also great scouting.. meh.. just an idea.
 
@ RaikouLovers post:

My main Lucario counter is Zapdos...but Stone Edge varients hurt. The only thing I dont like about the LO set is that it even that extra punch isn't too useful. Especially when I'm running Dragon Claw over Outrage. Why do I run Dragon Claw? It's because with Steels everywhere are Outrage, BulkyMence will die to a Metagross/Jirachi Ice Punch or Mamoswine Ice Shard just the same as an Offensive Salamence.....only I lose the large damage output.....

With Scizor, Shed Shell is a great idea. Leftovers was standard for a bulky Poke on Scizor especially since I rely on him to handle Tyranitar too. But nevertheless, I will definately use Shed Shell.

As for Jirachi, I seriously love the idea of Charge Beam over Calm Mind and Thunderbolt opening up a free slot, but personally I would run RestTalk over Wish-Protect. Rest Talk Charge beam Psychic makes me think of.....Cresselia! But for this team, I'm sticking with this Jirachi.

BTW, RaikouLover's Jirachi idea's had me thinking of other potential ideas. I've reached this new idea:

Jirachi @ Leftovers
EVs: 252 HP / 220 Def / 36 Spe
Nature: Bold
~Calm Mind
~Psychic
~Hidden power [Fighting]
~WIsh

Psychic and Fighting provide above average coverage. Some Psychic's stop it, but many of those are frail (Azelf, Alakazam) and Spiritomb completely stops it. However, it nails Tyranitar and Heatran who are Cm Jirachi's largest counters.
That said, with Tyranitar covered, Scizor is not necessary and I can run something that helps cover other large problems stated such as Celebi, Gyarados, and friends. It look like a CELEBI can then work over Scizor without granting too many additional weaknesses that the team can't handle. Not to mention, CELEBI can run CM...I'd love to see any well-built team handle 3 CMers that can all kill Blissey. Although it'd make me feel
bad inside to abuse them like that...(not really..lol)

SO ANY THOUGHTS ON THAT? ^^^^

anyways, THANKS FOR THE RATES PPL? ANY1 ELSE WISH TO HELP?
 
Lucario uses Ice Punch more than Stone Edge. Also, don't say Scizor is the glue to your team, so many people say that, and only because it gets STAB priority!1!1!!!
You should consider CB Mence - as stated, CB mons will hurt you early on. Max Atk/Spd, Adamant with Dragon Claw/Outrage/Earthquake/Stone Edge.
Play it by not using Outrage until you have made sure there are no Steels that
can stop your sweep. Salamence works awesome early on, a quick Dragon Claw to scout for Steels before going to Zapdos is great. I'm worried about Bronzong, who can easily set up on the majority of your Pokemon.
 
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